1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:34,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin, it is intoxicating. You open up your phone and 2 00:00:34,636 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 1: it's like, quote tweet this guy's awesome. Quote tweet, this 3 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: is awesome. Quote tweet this is awesome. Everybody that you respect, 4 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:45,476 Speaker 1: admire can participate in lifting you up and saying you're awesome. 5 00:00:46,596 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: Hussan Minhaj was hearing a lot of positive feedback after 6 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:52,916 Speaker 1: one of his comedy routines went viral a few years back. 7 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:56,036 Speaker 1: You may know Hussan from The Daily Show or his 8 00:00:56,116 --> 00:01:00,276 Speaker 1: Netflix series Patriot Act. At the time, Hussan relished his 9 00:01:00,396 --> 00:01:04,876 Speaker 1: increasing popularity, but in our conversation, he revealed a desire 10 00:01:04,956 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 1: to move beyond a career that's so dependent on whether 11 00:01:08,156 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: or not people like him. Do you like me? How 12 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 1: many millions of people like me? So I can hopefully 13 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:21,156 Speaker 1: continue doing this? Man, I don't want to participate on 14 00:01:21,196 --> 00:01:24,756 Speaker 1: today's episode. What happens when our self worth and livelihood 15 00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:29,996 Speaker 1: rely on how much people like us? I'm maya Shunker 16 00:01:30,196 --> 00:01:32,596 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, A show 17 00:01:32,596 --> 00:01:34,956 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 18 00:01:34,996 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: face of a big change. Husson's brand of comedy is 19 00:01:51,276 --> 00:01:55,996 Speaker 1: overtly political and often provocative. In his Netflix show Patriot Act. 20 00:01:56,236 --> 00:01:59,356 Speaker 1: He took on powerful world leaders like the Saudi crown 21 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:02,796 Speaker 1: Prince and the President of China. You might also remember 22 00:02:02,836 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: his speech at the White House Correspondence dinner back in 23 00:02:05,516 --> 00:02:10,756 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen when Trump was president. The leader of our 24 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:15,396 Speaker 1: country is not here, and that's because he lives in Moscow. 25 00:02:15,436 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: It is a very long flight. It'd be hard for 26 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 1: Glad to make it. Glad can't just make it on 27 00:02:19,516 --> 00:02:24,436 Speaker 1: a Saturday. It's a Saturday. As for the other guy, 28 00:02:24,476 --> 00:02:26,396 Speaker 1: I think he's in Pennsylvania because he can't take a joke. 29 00:02:28,796 --> 00:02:31,476 Speaker 1: Hussan was initially drawn to comedy because it allowed him 30 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:34,796 Speaker 1: to hold people in power accountable. He's always liked playing 31 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: the role of Jester and identity he talks about in 32 00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:41,596 Speaker 1: his Netflix special The King's Jester. It's a role Hussan 33 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:45,356 Speaker 1: began playing back when he was in elementary school. Comedians 34 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:49,196 Speaker 1: sometimes identify and they see the world as this thing 35 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:51,356 Speaker 1: where there's people in the front of the class and 36 00:02:51,396 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: then there's people in the back of the class, and 37 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 1: there is a divide between those people. So they're kind 38 00:02:57,596 --> 00:02:59,156 Speaker 1: of is the people in the front of the class 39 00:02:59,156 --> 00:03:03,156 Speaker 1: that uphold the status quo, that are like goody goody 40 00:03:03,396 --> 00:03:07,396 Speaker 1: students type a high achieving whatever the teacher tells me 41 00:03:07,476 --> 00:03:12,476 Speaker 1: to do, that's like the Old Testament, and I take 42 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:15,676 Speaker 1: it as this is the Holy Scripture life. Yeah, it's 43 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:18,956 Speaker 1: a seven year old. Yeah, Jesus, I know. I'm so sorry. 44 00:03:18,996 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: As I'm like looking you directly in the eye, I'm like, 45 00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:23,276 Speaker 1: there's there's a particular type of person that's yeah, person 46 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: who I don't know makes up extra credit projects when 47 00:03:25,276 --> 00:03:27,356 Speaker 1: they don't even exist. Yeah. And then there's people in 48 00:03:27,356 --> 00:03:28,716 Speaker 1: the back of the room that's like, this is kind 49 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:31,676 Speaker 1: of insane. They kind of understand the cosmic joke, so 50 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 1: to speak. Missus Ladington does not have all the answers. 51 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: Mister DeMarco, the gym teacher does not have all the answers, 52 00:03:37,236 --> 00:03:39,316 Speaker 1: and for him or her to be decreeing this to 53 00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:41,756 Speaker 1: us is absolutely ridiculous. So they're you know, shooting spitballs 54 00:03:41,756 --> 00:03:45,076 Speaker 1: from the back of the class. And I definitely felt 55 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 1: growing up that I was outside of the core group 56 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:52,196 Speaker 1: of thirty kids and I'm observing this thing. So there 57 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 1: was this feeling where I always felt like I was 58 00:03:54,596 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: the DVD commentary to the story that was happening in 59 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:00,836 Speaker 1: real time. Where I'm like, WHOA, that's kind of weird 60 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: that Andrew does this and Brittany does this, and I 61 00:04:03,436 --> 00:04:05,516 Speaker 1: was able to kind of piece those things together in 62 00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:07,996 Speaker 1: those moments where I would sometimes be a smart alec 63 00:04:08,036 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 1: in class or growing up, it felt like all the 64 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:15,916 Speaker 1: code lined up in that moment, the tetris of my 65 00:04:16,116 --> 00:04:18,756 Speaker 1: comedy logic lined up perfectly, and just for a moment, 66 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 1: I kind of felt a sense of agency. Is there 67 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 1: a memory you have of a time when you felt like, oh, 68 00:04:26,676 --> 00:04:28,636 Speaker 1: I got a knack for this, like I'm pretty talented 69 00:04:28,636 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 1: at it. I was in the third grade in nineteen 70 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:32,916 Speaker 1: ninety three. I'll never forget this. Miss Anderson was my 71 00:04:32,956 --> 00:04:36,876 Speaker 1: teacher of the third fourth grade combo. She loved diet pepsi. 72 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 1: This was during an era in the nineties where like 73 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 1: a lot of adults would just not drink water, but 74 00:04:43,756 --> 00:04:47,956 Speaker 1: they would pound eighty plus ounces of these big gulp 75 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:52,036 Speaker 1: diets because we were told there's no consequences, just like water. 76 00:04:52,196 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: It's just like water. Who needs water? But kids couldn't 77 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 1: drink it. This was also during an era where kids 78 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:01,556 Speaker 1: could not have soda pop right. It was a bad thing. 79 00:05:01,956 --> 00:05:04,596 Speaker 1: And I remember she would sometimes have a case, like 80 00:05:04,636 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: a twelve pack case on her desk, and I would 81 00:05:07,756 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: just observe her being yo. She is shotgunning diet pepsi 82 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:14,476 Speaker 1: throughout the day and nobody seems to think this is weird. 83 00:05:14,876 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 1: And I remember one day I go, Miss Anderson, can 84 00:05:17,156 --> 00:05:19,156 Speaker 1: I get a diet pepsi? And she's like, kids can't 85 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:22,396 Speaker 1: drink soda? Pop I go, okay, Miss Anderson. And then 86 00:05:22,596 --> 00:05:25,516 Speaker 1: my dad loved watching sixty Minutes, and I remember there 87 00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:27,796 Speaker 1: was this big investigative report on sixty Minutes about how 88 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 1: diet soda causes cancer and I go, oh my god, 89 00:05:31,916 --> 00:05:35,796 Speaker 1: she's like shotgunning, you know, cancer juice. And I remember 90 00:05:35,796 --> 00:05:38,476 Speaker 1: the next day I went in to class and I go, hey, 91 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 1: miss Anderson, can I get a diet pepsi? And she goes, hassen, 92 00:05:43,116 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 1: children cannot drink soda. And I go, you're right, miss Anderson. 93 00:05:48,996 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: Only adults should get cancer. And I got I got 94 00:05:56,756 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: in such big trouble. She like wrote it down and 95 00:05:59,396 --> 00:06:01,156 Speaker 1: I got a pink slip and it was a whole thing. 96 00:06:01,436 --> 00:06:04,836 Speaker 1: Did the other kids in class laugh when you said that? No, 97 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:08,676 Speaker 1: they didn't laugh because they didn't know understand that's right. 98 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:12,996 Speaker 1: At I had seen the report, but you felt this 99 00:06:13,036 --> 00:06:15,556 Speaker 1: is interesting, right, because you did not get any social 100 00:06:15,636 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: validation in that moment that you were funny. But I 101 00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:20,996 Speaker 1: had asked you tell me about the time you realize 102 00:06:21,036 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: that you're funny, and you're naming this moment, which means 103 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: there was some confidence there that you knew you had 104 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:30,796 Speaker 1: landed this joke, that it was objectively funny, very funny. 105 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:34,116 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this too, where there's kind of 106 00:06:34,116 --> 00:06:39,556 Speaker 1: this duality that I think comedians inhabit, where on one hand, 107 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:42,436 Speaker 1: you're like, I'm the shit, I deserve to be on 108 00:06:42,556 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: stage and people should listen to what I have to say. 109 00:06:45,356 --> 00:06:49,556 Speaker 1: My opinions are probably the most important in this entire room. 110 00:06:49,676 --> 00:06:55,396 Speaker 1: But there's also this extreme lack of self confidence of like, 111 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:59,876 Speaker 1: I'm pretty worthless, I'm not shit, And it's that duality. 112 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 1: It's the arrogance and this complete lack of any self 113 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: esteem that you vacillate between that kind of allows you 114 00:07:10,236 --> 00:07:13,476 Speaker 1: to be a comedian, because I think our hippocratic oath 115 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:16,876 Speaker 1: for comics is I ain't shit, and neither are you. 116 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 1: So you have to start by interrogating yourself, and then 117 00:07:22,036 --> 00:07:24,236 Speaker 1: that gives you license to be able to be like 118 00:07:24,556 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 1: and you ain't shit either. So after many years, let's 119 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:31,636 Speaker 1: fast forward a bit, after many years of hustling, your 120 00:07:31,676 --> 00:07:34,716 Speaker 1: big dreams start coming true. You get a job as 121 00:07:34,716 --> 00:07:37,476 Speaker 1: a correspondent on The Daily Show, which on Stewart, which 122 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 1: I imagine is just one of those like mind blowing 123 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: moments of like, holy crap, I cannot believe this is 124 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:44,396 Speaker 1: coming to fruition. Yeah, it was the first time in 125 00:07:44,396 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 1: my life I felt like I was chosen and it 126 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:49,356 Speaker 1: really meant a lot to me. And it felt like 127 00:07:50,916 --> 00:07:54,956 Speaker 1: making an entertainment. It's very competitive and it's not guaranteed, 128 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:56,396 Speaker 1: and there's so many people that I know that are 129 00:07:56,436 --> 00:07:59,556 Speaker 1: super funny that just never make it and they never 130 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:01,676 Speaker 1: just get quote unquote chosen. So it was one of 131 00:08:01,676 --> 00:08:04,836 Speaker 1: those things where it felt very validating that, man, this 132 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:06,876 Speaker 1: thing I devoted my life too. At that point, it 133 00:08:06,916 --> 00:08:09,316 Speaker 1: was ten years, one month in nine days that it 134 00:08:09,356 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 1: was for something. And you know, the show's known for 135 00:08:13,476 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 1: blending comedy and political activism. Right, I'm wondering if there's 136 00:08:18,236 --> 00:08:21,756 Speaker 1: a memorable segment that you worked on in which you felt, 137 00:08:22,236 --> 00:08:26,436 Speaker 1: maybe for the first time, the power of marrying comedy 138 00:08:26,956 --> 00:08:30,676 Speaker 1: and political activism. Oh yeah, I think It's that perfect 139 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:36,036 Speaker 1: combination of silly and sincere. That's the perfect combo for me. 140 00:08:36,476 --> 00:08:38,356 Speaker 1: So I remember I was at the Daily Show and 141 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 1: it was during the twenty sixteen election. That was one 142 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: of my favorite pieces. And what's great about the Daily 143 00:08:42,796 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 1: Shows you get to do it live from the conventions. 144 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 1: And at that time, this was right, you know, peque 145 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:51,916 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, Mexicans are rapists, Muslim band moment, right, And 146 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 1: so one of the things that you get to do 147 00:08:54,316 --> 00:08:56,636 Speaker 1: what the convention is you get to meet delegates from 148 00:08:56,636 --> 00:09:00,036 Speaker 1: every state they're walking around. And so the segment I 149 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:02,596 Speaker 1: pitched was called Hustan's Farewell Tour, where I get to 150 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:04,436 Speaker 1: go up to people and I go, hey, I'm musamanaj 151 00:09:04,436 --> 00:09:05,916 Speaker 1: where are you from? And you know, they go, ah, 152 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 1: I'm a delegate from Montana. I go, oh my god, 153 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to go to Montana. What's Montana? Like, Well, 154 00:09:11,956 --> 00:09:13,836 Speaker 1: it's big scott country. We can't wait for you to 155 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: check it out, and I go I can't and they 156 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: go why and I go because the person you're voting 157 00:09:18,276 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 1: for it wants to ban me from the country, you know. 158 00:09:20,276 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 1: And then it's like, who Husting's farewell to her? And 159 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:24,596 Speaker 1: it's a montage like that. What's the best thing about 160 00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:28,396 Speaker 1: Wisconsin Green Bay Packers and Georgia we have great whitewater rafting. 161 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: I would love to go whitewater rafting. What's the best 162 00:09:30,556 --> 00:09:34,036 Speaker 1: thing about Oklahoma? Yea, wow, I would love to go there. 163 00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 1: Sometimes you're always welcome to car I would love to 164 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 1: come down and see a game. Yes, I can't why 165 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:42,996 Speaker 1: I'm a Muslim. And if Donald Trump is elected, he's 166 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 1: probably gonna throw me out. As we cut together the package, 167 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:49,996 Speaker 1: it just got more and more ridiculous and funny. And 168 00:09:50,036 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: then at the end there was this really nice moment 169 00:09:52,396 --> 00:09:54,076 Speaker 1: where someone was like, he's not going to do that. 170 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 1: He doesn't mean that, and I go, really, And there'd 171 00:09:56,916 --> 00:09:59,916 Speaker 1: sometimes be these older delegates and then be like I 172 00:09:59,956 --> 00:10:02,476 Speaker 1: would never let that happen. I go why not? And 173 00:10:02,636 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 1: they go because you're one of the good ones, And 174 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 1: I go, you know what, I feel the same way 175 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 1: about you, and we'd kind of hug and embrace, and 176 00:10:11,316 --> 00:10:14,356 Speaker 1: that to me is like the perfect cocktail. It's just 177 00:10:14,396 --> 00:10:18,076 Speaker 1: the perfect cocktail of comedy and I love it. Some 178 00:10:18,116 --> 00:10:21,436 Speaker 1: people get mad, some people feel righteous indignation. How could 179 00:10:21,476 --> 00:10:23,276 Speaker 1: you say this? I don't care about any of that. 180 00:10:23,396 --> 00:10:27,196 Speaker 1: The incongruity of all of this is fucking hilarious. That's 181 00:10:27,236 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: what I find so funny. After your time at The 182 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 1: Daily Show, Yeah, Netflix green lights a show that you've created, 183 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: it's called Patriot Act. Yeah. And I mean, this is 184 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: the first time in your career where you were at 185 00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:46,556 Speaker 1: the helm of a TV series and for your first episode, 186 00:10:46,596 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: you end up taking on a particularly risky topic, right, 187 00:10:49,556 --> 00:10:52,676 Speaker 1: which is the Saudi crown prince. Yeah. And this is 188 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 1: following the murder of journalist Jamal Kashogi who has murdered 189 00:10:56,476 --> 00:11:00,156 Speaker 1: of the Saudi consulate in Isthanbul, and the story really 190 00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 1: blows up online, right, And I'm curious if you can 191 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:06,836 Speaker 1: walk me through the decision making calculus behind all this 192 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: and then we can talk about what happened after. Yeah. 193 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 1: So at that point in my life, the decision making 194 00:11:12,076 --> 00:11:16,956 Speaker 1: calculus always is chase the truth. And Hindi, there's this 195 00:11:16,996 --> 00:11:19,116 Speaker 1: word called good goody, which means like a tickle in 196 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: your tummy. And there's always whenever I'm writing a joke 197 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 1: or I'm working on something, there's always this little tickle 198 00:11:24,836 --> 00:11:26,396 Speaker 1: in my tummy of like what if I said this 199 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:28,196 Speaker 1: kind of like that miss Anderson moment, What if I 200 00:11:28,236 --> 00:11:31,916 Speaker 1: said this in this moment, chasing that because that's a 201 00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:34,636 Speaker 1: little bit out of your comfort zone, you're breaking with 202 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 1: the status quo is. And the calculus that I had 203 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:41,316 Speaker 1: was I know that every other show in late night 204 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:45,036 Speaker 1: right now does not know how to position themselves in 205 00:11:45,076 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: relation to this subject. Like Stephen Colbert won't have the 206 00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 1: same angle I will be able to have here, and 207 00:11:53,756 --> 00:11:57,556 Speaker 1: he won't be able to talk about being Muslim and 208 00:11:57,676 --> 00:12:00,676 Speaker 1: having that relationship to Saudi Arabia as like an Indian, 209 00:12:00,716 --> 00:12:02,836 Speaker 1: as an American, as a Muslim. He won't be able 210 00:12:02,836 --> 00:12:06,036 Speaker 1: to triangulate that. So that's part of the math for me. 211 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 1: Just a few months ago, Prom Prince Mohammed bin Salman 212 00:12:09,356 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 1: aka MBS was hailed as the reformer the Arab rule needed. 213 00:12:13,476 --> 00:12:17,356 Speaker 1: But the revelations about Kashogi's killing have shattered that image. 214 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: And it blows my mind that it took the killing 215 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:23,756 Speaker 1: of a Washington Post journalist for everyone to go, oh, 216 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:27,356 Speaker 1: I guess he's really not a reformer. Meanwhile, every Muslim 217 00:12:27,356 --> 00:12:30,116 Speaker 1: person you know was like, yeah, no shit, he's the 218 00:12:30,236 --> 00:12:35,516 Speaker 1: crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. Well. Netflix under fire today 219 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:37,996 Speaker 1: after its decision to pull an episode of a comedy 220 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:40,876 Speaker 1: show that was critical of Crown Prince Mohammed been Salman 221 00:12:41,236 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 1: and his alleged role in the killing of journalist Jamaica's Shogi. 222 00:12:44,436 --> 00:12:48,676 Speaker 1: So the episode gets banned in Saudi Arabia. It becomes 223 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 1: a big international news story about tech platform censorship and 224 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:58,276 Speaker 1: what you can and can't say. I didn't know I'd 225 00:12:58,276 --> 00:13:00,516 Speaker 1: be at the center of that. Are you talking the 226 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: special about how intoxicating it was? Oh, it feels great 227 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 1: to get all of this attention right, to be trending 228 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:11,436 Speaker 1: on Twitter and all the likes, all the comments, all 229 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: the retweets, comments, retweets. Give them to me. Tell me 230 00:13:26,036 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 1: more about what that experience was like on a psychological level, 231 00:13:29,636 --> 00:13:33,516 Speaker 1: like being almost confronted with a new tier of attention. Yeah, 232 00:13:33,556 --> 00:13:37,556 Speaker 1: it is intoxicating. You feel like you're pretty drunk on it. 233 00:13:37,956 --> 00:13:39,996 Speaker 1: You feel like you're the coolest kid in high school. 234 00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:43,076 Speaker 1: Like everybody's inviting you over to the blue benches and 235 00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 1: they're like, you're bucking awesome, and it feels like you're 236 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:49,596 Speaker 1: at a slot machine. You open up your phone and 237 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 1: you just hit refresh and it's like, quote tweet, this 238 00:13:52,676 --> 00:13:54,836 Speaker 1: guy's awesome. Quote tweet this is awesome. Quote tweet this 239 00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: is awesome. It's this crazy feeling where pre social media 240 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 1: you had to do a lot to curry favor and 241 00:14:02,876 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: validation from people, but this puts that on steroids because 242 00:14:06,956 --> 00:14:10,516 Speaker 1: everyone around the world can participate, pay in lifting you 243 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:14,596 Speaker 1: up and saying you're awesome. And the sick part of 244 00:14:14,636 --> 00:14:17,676 Speaker 1: it is if you start to understand the rhythm of 245 00:14:17,716 --> 00:14:20,636 Speaker 1: the algorithm, you can kind of break down how it works. 246 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:27,916 Speaker 1: You say something divisive, irreverent, bold, and you find someone 247 00:14:28,156 --> 00:14:30,676 Speaker 1: a point of your ire and you go, Okay, I'm 248 00:14:30,676 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: going to target in on this person and I'm going 249 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 1: to upload the video at nine am est. That way, 250 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:39,436 Speaker 1: everybody gets it burst thing in the fucking morning and 251 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: they pull out their phone and oh you let it 252 00:14:42,276 --> 00:14:46,116 Speaker 1: rip all day long. So you talked about the fact that, 253 00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:50,996 Speaker 1: at some point, working on these Patriot Act episodes, after 254 00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:54,596 Speaker 1: getting recognized as one of times hundred most influential people 255 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:59,596 Speaker 1: in the world, your wife Beena observes that you seem 256 00:14:59,596 --> 00:15:02,876 Speaker 1: to only care about certain topics when quote the cameras 257 00:15:02,876 --> 00:15:06,316 Speaker 1: are on. Yeah, right. Was that the first time that 258 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: you began noticing just how much you were being driven 259 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:12,476 Speaker 1: by the attention and recognition, Like was it in that 260 00:15:12,516 --> 00:15:15,316 Speaker 1: moment with your wife? Yeah? You know, Bean has always 261 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: been kind of this jimminy cricket to me because she 262 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:21,916 Speaker 1: is one of the best people I've ever met in 263 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 1: my life. And there's a reason why. Like the moment 264 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 1: I met her, I just remember being like, she's one 265 00:15:27,596 --> 00:15:32,556 Speaker 1: of those people that is a good person, whether or 266 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:37,556 Speaker 1: not there's social cloud or validation from it. She will 267 00:15:37,596 --> 00:15:41,716 Speaker 1: do the right things privately when she checks me on stuff, 268 00:15:41,756 --> 00:15:43,956 Speaker 1: I really have to reckon with it. I mean, you've 269 00:15:43,996 --> 00:15:46,716 Speaker 1: said that you don't want to be doing the right 270 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:49,476 Speaker 1: thing for the wrong reasons, right, What are the wrong 271 00:15:49,516 --> 00:15:53,276 Speaker 1: reasons to do something social signaling? You stand with Ukraine. 272 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:55,276 Speaker 1: You put up the black box or you do the 273 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:59,276 Speaker 1: hashtag because everybody that morning is doing it and you 274 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:01,596 Speaker 1: want to be part of the end group. The right 275 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 1: reason to do it is, you know, this is in 276 00:16:03,356 --> 00:16:05,916 Speaker 1: every ancient tradition or faith right you give with one 277 00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:09,436 Speaker 1: hand without the other hand, knowing like you own it 278 00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:12,916 Speaker 1: anonymously on gofund me. This is so interesting, Hussan, because 279 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:16,116 Speaker 1: I think there are other comedians that would just hold 280 00:16:16,156 --> 00:16:18,276 Speaker 1: themselves to a different standard. They would think look, the 281 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:21,236 Speaker 1: right reason is just being desirous of making people laugh 282 00:16:21,356 --> 00:16:24,556 Speaker 1: and engaging them. And so the fact that you're even 283 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:28,716 Speaker 1: asking yourself these types of questions shows me that you 284 00:16:28,836 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 1: do identify as more than just a comedian. I want 285 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:34,116 Speaker 1: to be the best artist I can be, which requires honesty, 286 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 1: and I just want to be a good person. And 287 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:40,116 Speaker 1: by good I mean the people that know me the 288 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:43,316 Speaker 1: most can testify and be like, he's a good dude, 289 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:47,076 Speaker 1: he is ethical, he is sincere, he is a person 290 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 1: of his word, like all of those things. And the 291 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:53,836 Speaker 1: people that can validate that are my wife, my two kids, 292 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:56,956 Speaker 1: the crew that I grew up with, my sister, my parents. 293 00:16:57,396 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 1: All those people can really vouch for that. The thing 294 00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:04,476 Speaker 1: that I'm noticing is that there are quote unquote good 295 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 1: guys and good gals visa vie what they say on Twitter, 296 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 1: but they ain't shit outside of that, and I think 297 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: that's the social grift we're all observing. We'll be back 298 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:36,356 Speaker 1: in a moment with a slight change of plans. We're 299 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: back with comedian Hussan Minhaj. Hussan says he's eager to 300 00:17:40,436 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 1: do things for the right reasons rather than for social 301 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 1: cloud or validation. But I wanted to push him a 302 00:17:46,436 --> 00:17:49,676 Speaker 1: bit on this desire for pure intentions. It seemed like 303 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: he was holding himself to a pretty high standard, and 304 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:55,596 Speaker 1: I wondered whether the focus on purity might actually prevent 305 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 1: him from doing social good. I think one challenge I 306 00:17:59,516 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 1: have around assigning so much importance to the purity of 307 00:18:03,476 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 1: our motives is that I want to make sure that 308 00:18:06,756 --> 00:18:10,436 Speaker 1: we're being reasonable with ourselves about what's possible to accomplish. 309 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:12,716 Speaker 1: And I say this only because, Okay, here's a hypothetical. 310 00:18:13,356 --> 00:18:16,356 Speaker 1: Let's say that you, Hussan, have brought light to the 311 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 1: fact that there is an innocent person sitting in a 312 00:18:19,196 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 1: jail somewhere in the world, and as a result of 313 00:18:21,596 --> 00:18:23,916 Speaker 1: your advocacy, a result of the fact that you shed 314 00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:26,796 Speaker 1: light on this right, that person is free. Yes, but 315 00:18:26,836 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 1: then I maya the mad cognitive scientists have created this machine, 316 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:36,196 Speaker 1: what's called a hypothetical. How pure is this dude, really? 317 00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:38,836 Speaker 1: MRI machine? Okay, I put you in the scanner. Yeah, 318 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 1: and like we get some pretty troubling news. We find out, hey, 319 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:47,716 Speaker 1: actually seventy percent of Hussan's brain, you know, shine a 320 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 1: light on this piece of information because he wanted a 321 00:18:50,436 --> 00:18:53,716 Speaker 1: popular story on Instagram, but thirty percent of him cared 322 00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:57,396 Speaker 1: about the person. Yeah, and okay, I might think that's 323 00:18:57,436 --> 00:19:00,596 Speaker 1: not great. I would prefer if Hussan got to one 324 00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 1: hundred percent in terms of his motives. But I would 325 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:07,676 Speaker 1: never have wanted that quote impurity to curb your behaviors 326 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: because the behavior is now positive. But this is just 327 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:13,516 Speaker 1: a personal journey for me, maya for me, you know, 328 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:17,716 Speaker 1: especially because the Internet has now made the world the 329 00:19:17,836 --> 00:19:20,436 Speaker 1: quad at Davis High. Like everybody is now in the 330 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:23,636 Speaker 1: quad and it's lunchtime and the popular kids and the 331 00:19:23,756 --> 00:19:26,276 Speaker 1: job everybody's that now it's eight billion people that are 332 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:29,156 Speaker 1: in this quad at lunch. So the reason why I 333 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: have to check my motives is because it's becoming harder 334 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 1: than ever to find out why you're doing something. And 335 00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 1: the thing for me is if I can lock in 336 00:19:38,836 --> 00:19:41,636 Speaker 1: on what the truth is in my heart selfishly, it'll 337 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:44,636 Speaker 1: make me a better artist. I don't want to disappoint myself. 338 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:47,956 Speaker 1: And if I can hold myself to that standard at 339 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:52,756 Speaker 1: least that I'm trying, then I can also be braver 340 00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:56,716 Speaker 1: and more vigilant in my art because as an individual, 341 00:19:56,756 --> 00:20:00,276 Speaker 1: I am seeking capital t truth, not consensus. And I 342 00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 1: wonder whether your aspiration to try your hardest to do 343 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 1: the right thing for the right reasons is in some 344 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 1: way a stabilization exercise. It's grounding you in a sturdier 345 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 1: place where because you feel so firmly in your own 346 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 1: convictions and you have that inner belief, in some sense, 347 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:23,316 Speaker 1: it kind of insulates you from that noise that's happening 348 00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:25,676 Speaker 1: on the outside, because you're like, you know what, I'm 349 00:20:25,676 --> 00:20:27,916 Speaker 1: not as vulnerable as you think anymore, because I know 350 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 1: I put up this episode for the right reason. I 351 00:20:30,036 --> 00:20:32,196 Speaker 1: know I made this joke because I actually want to 352 00:20:32,276 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 1: help this person. So if you think it's lame, or 353 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:35,876 Speaker 1: you think it's stupid, or you think that I'm blah 354 00:20:35,956 --> 00:20:38,196 Speaker 1: or this or that, like I'm a little bit more 355 00:20:38,236 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 1: impenetrable than I was before. Correct, Yes, okay, so this 356 00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:46,236 Speaker 1: is why I have to use this mental exercise to 357 00:20:46,316 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 1: be like, I gotta know who I am, because otherwise 358 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 1: I'm now relying on everyone else to tell me who 359 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:54,116 Speaker 1: I am all the time, and that's just too disoriented. 360 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 1: Can't I can't. Yeah, that's too fragile. It's too fragile 361 00:20:57,036 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: a position to be in. I completely understand that what 362 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:02,676 Speaker 1: you're saying is for you to have a sustainable career, 363 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 1: for you to feel like you can actually create the 364 00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 1: best art and create armor around yourself, because it's only 365 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 1: going to get Sorry, I just feel cynical about the future, 366 00:21:11,556 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 1: but it's only going to get worse. It's only going 367 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 1: to get nastier because I mean more vehicles by which 368 00:21:15,836 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: people are going to be able to troll you and 369 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:20,356 Speaker 1: take you down and shake yourself confidence. And so it 370 00:21:20,396 --> 00:21:22,836 Speaker 1: feels very wise to me that you're trying to put 371 00:21:22,876 --> 00:21:26,196 Speaker 1: in that work now to create the only version of 372 00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:29,836 Speaker 1: armor really that exists today, which is a sense of 373 00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:32,636 Speaker 1: who you are and the reasons why you're doing the 374 00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: things you're doing. You know, when the special premiered, I 375 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:38,716 Speaker 1: did this event for Netflix employees, so they screened it 376 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 1: at the Netflix offices, The King's Jester, and then afterwards 377 00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: we did a Q and A with the staff. One 378 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 1: of the employees at Netflix goes, hey, huss and we 379 00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:49,036 Speaker 1: all know that you did comedy, much to the chagrin 380 00:21:49,076 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 1: of your parents. If your daughter wants to do comedy, 381 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:56,476 Speaker 1: will you let her? I go No, Here's why I'm 382 00:21:56,836 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 1: genuinely afraid, and I don't want my daughter to do comedy. 383 00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:03,276 Speaker 1: I don't want my daughter to participate in an art 384 00:22:03,316 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 1: form that is reliant on whether or not people like her. 385 00:22:08,836 --> 00:22:11,316 Speaker 1: From the moment she gets on stage at that first 386 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,756 Speaker 1: open mic in front of ten people at the Brainwash 387 00:22:14,796 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 1: Cafe in San Francisco, the whole subtext of that interaction 388 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: will be do you guys like me? To the moment 389 00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: she auditions for her first improv team, do you like me? 390 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:29,556 Speaker 1: Hopefully she advances, and she auditions for SNL Lauren SNL? 391 00:22:29,676 --> 00:22:31,996 Speaker 1: Do you like me? Now? She has a career. Now 392 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:34,716 Speaker 1: she's doing that at scale. Do you guys like me? Oh? 393 00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:36,756 Speaker 1: She has a pilot and it goes to air? Do 394 00:22:36,836 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: you like me? How many millions of people like me? So? 395 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:43,716 Speaker 1: I can hopefully continue doing this. Man, I don't want 396 00:22:43,716 --> 00:22:47,516 Speaker 1: to participate in this business that's entirely dependent on whether 397 00:22:47,636 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: or not people like me. This episode comes out, people 398 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: are going to tweet I didn't like him. I didn't 399 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:54,836 Speaker 1: like that episode. I don't know if you had this 400 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 1: in your community growing up, there was always that one 401 00:22:56,716 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 1: kid that got into Stanford or that one kid that 402 00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:01,716 Speaker 1: got into mit. So an art community, it was an 403 00:23:01,716 --> 00:23:05,716 Speaker 1: akilsachdev and I still believe this. People are like, are 404 00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: you happy with your life? I go. If I could 405 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 1: go back in time, I would cut my own finger 406 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 1: off to nakil sad stuff. I'm not lying, Maya. I've 407 00:23:13,636 --> 00:23:17,596 Speaker 1: hosted the White House Correspondence dinner. Yeah, I'm doing pretty well. 408 00:23:18,756 --> 00:23:23,116 Speaker 1: I would do anything to trade places. Why do we 409 00:23:23,236 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 1: value that more? Well? Because what's beautiful about nikkil And 410 00:23:26,556 --> 00:23:28,916 Speaker 1: it's funny. I'm still very good friends with Nikil Is. 411 00:23:29,436 --> 00:23:32,476 Speaker 1: He has created a line of work where his self 412 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 1: worth is not linked to whether or not people like him. 413 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 1: He works in like investment banking. You can't go after 414 00:23:40,516 --> 00:23:45,076 Speaker 1: him on Twitter. You can't say he fell off. He 415 00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:48,676 Speaker 1: can walk through the grocery store and with his partners lover, 416 00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:50,636 Speaker 1: and no one's going to take a photo of him 417 00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: and be like, whoa, Nick's getting old. There is no 418 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: thing like that. He is truly free. He's free from 419 00:23:57,236 --> 00:24:00,276 Speaker 1: all this, Maya. It's interesting because, like you said, he's 420 00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:03,236 Speaker 1: not really beholden to anyone, right, His worth doesn't come 421 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:07,476 Speaker 1: from other people's approval or whether they find him funny 422 00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:10,516 Speaker 1: or charming or whatnot. This is whying to kill sachtev One. 423 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:14,836 Speaker 1: He's not playing a game that's predicated on whether or 424 00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 1: not people like him. So how do you work with that? 425 00:24:18,276 --> 00:24:22,156 Speaker 1: Because you know, it's one thing to make a resolution 426 00:24:22,196 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 1: to yourself to say, look, I want to not care 427 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:27,596 Speaker 1: what other people think. I want to be proud of 428 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:29,916 Speaker 1: the stuff that I do. I want to bring the 429 00:24:29,956 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: purest motives and intentions. But it's not like overnight you're like, Okay, 430 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:37,116 Speaker 1: made that resolution, brain transplant, you know, accomplish Now I'm 431 00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:39,556 Speaker 1: a new person and I've rid myself of all personal 432 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 1: ambition and the desire to be loved and the desire 433 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: to be liked and whatnot. Are there strategies that you're 434 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 1: using to actively try and cultivate a more resilient mindset 435 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:54,956 Speaker 1: or a more pure approach to the work that you do. Yeah, 436 00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:59,196 Speaker 1: I think the ultimate way to defeat this thing, and 437 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:02,756 Speaker 1: it is the cosmic joke. I have to leave the game, 438 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:05,476 Speaker 1: like I got to graduate from the game and move 439 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:09,436 Speaker 1: on to something else. I think this industry will draw 440 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: you crazy. So for me, I think there's a world 441 00:25:12,436 --> 00:25:14,956 Speaker 1: where you know, I eventually move on from it and 442 00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:19,076 Speaker 1: I transition to something else. Yeah, and the thing you 443 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:23,196 Speaker 1: would transition to it would have to meet the criteria 444 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:26,036 Speaker 1: where whatever the next thing I do is, I'm going 445 00:25:26,036 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 1: to be able to establish my self worth independently of 446 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:33,276 Speaker 1: other people's subjective assessment in me totally. Being an artist 447 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:35,396 Speaker 1: is who I am. I do have this need to 448 00:25:35,436 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 1: express myself, but I have to find new mediums as 449 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:43,196 Speaker 1: my life continues that are less and less and less 450 00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:46,916 Speaker 1: attached to whether people like me or not. Maybe it's writing, 451 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 1: maybe it's producing, maybe it's direct behind the camera. Yeah, 452 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: but if you are to really go full Kama kazimission 453 00:25:52,756 --> 00:25:55,476 Speaker 1: on this, then you actually have to leave the game 454 00:25:56,076 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 1: and never come back. No. It's such an honest take 455 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people they look, maybe 456 00:26:02,556 --> 00:26:04,716 Speaker 1: the Buddhist monks are capable of this. They're like, I 457 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 1: will transcend this shit. I will reach a state of 458 00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:11,676 Speaker 1: enlightenment in which I do my best work. I am 459 00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:13,716 Speaker 1: an artist. I go up on stage, I do my 460 00:26:13,756 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: stand up routine, and I just don't care what their 461 00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:20,436 Speaker 1: response is anymore. And to me, that feels like an 462 00:26:20,476 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 1: impossible task because look, part of the it's baked into 463 00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 1: the game, baked into the calculus of being a good comedian, 464 00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: to constantly be narrating in your own head and having 465 00:26:29,716 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 1: this voice. Are people going to find this funny? Are 466 00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:33,436 Speaker 1: you gonna find this bit funnier than this bit? Are 467 00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:35,756 Speaker 1: they going to think I'm a little bit too smartie 468 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:37,036 Speaker 1: if I were to say this thing, or any think 469 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 1: of a little bit too humble braggy if I do 470 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 1: it right. So that's such a hard tension to navigate. Yeah, 471 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 1: was there a moment of reckoning in even just the 472 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 1: last year where you found yourself unhappy? You found yourself 473 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,716 Speaker 1: despite having all the dreams that little Hussan had for himself, 474 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:54,796 Speaker 1: Like you're sitting there and you're thinking, oh gosh, this 475 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 1: is not I'm not having the experience I should be 476 00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 1: having given that I'm in this position. I think there 477 00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: was some morning I was getting some bad news, something 478 00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:08,276 Speaker 1: was happening, and my son is really cute. He's too 479 00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: He's like in he cute. Yeah, he still smells really good, 480 00:27:12,596 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: and he just wants to nuzzle and cuddle and all 481 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,076 Speaker 1: that stuff, and I just I'm holding him, and then 482 00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:18,996 Speaker 1: I got my phone in one hand and I'm dealing 483 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:22,196 Speaker 1: with just like some bullshit that's attached to just this 484 00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 1: stupid Hollywood stuff, and I'm like this is idiotic, Like 485 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:30,476 Speaker 1: this game I'm playing is so stupid because also the 486 00:27:30,476 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 1: thing that I was dealing with was some like press 487 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:37,876 Speaker 1: perception BS thing. It'd be one thing if I was 488 00:27:37,916 --> 00:27:40,676 Speaker 1: like cuddling my son and I'm dealing with like notes 489 00:27:40,716 --> 00:27:44,236 Speaker 1: about the set or there's something productive that's about again 490 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 1: like what I'm talking about seeking truth. It was this 491 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:52,436 Speaker 1: just like ego cloud pr some email thing, someone said 492 00:27:52,476 --> 00:27:55,436 Speaker 1: this about the special. Do you have a comment some 493 00:27:55,636 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 1: like idiotic thing. What's your response to the critic? Yeah, 494 00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:04,316 Speaker 1: what's Yeah? You spent two years of your life writing, performing, 495 00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:07,116 Speaker 1: crafting this thing. This person has a response to your thing. 496 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:09,876 Speaker 1: Do you have a response to their response? What are 497 00:28:09,876 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: we doing? What on earth am I doing? I'm gonna 498 00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:18,116 Speaker 1: miss these amazing moments with him for this, and I 499 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:20,756 Speaker 1: can't continue to be a part of this. I mean, 500 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:22,756 Speaker 1: the reason I love that you're saying this right now 501 00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: is that these are the kind of reflections people have 502 00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:27,396 Speaker 1: when they're at the lowest part of their careers. It's 503 00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:31,436 Speaker 1: how they find ways to rationalize the lack of success 504 00:28:31,596 --> 00:28:35,076 Speaker 1: or the great fall from a top. They say, you know, 505 00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:37,636 Speaker 1: none of this stuff mattered anyway. I mean, what is fame? 506 00:28:37,756 --> 00:28:39,996 Speaker 1: It's a flimsy thing. It's a transient thing. It was 507 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: just based on, you know, whether other people like you. 508 00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:44,076 Speaker 1: And I feel like I see it more as a 509 00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 1: retroactive rationalization of no longer being at the summit. And 510 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 1: so what means a lot to me right now is 511 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: that you're at the proverbial summit. Maybe you'll go higher, Hussan, 512 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:57,876 Speaker 1: but you're at the highest point you've been at relative 513 00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 1: to the rest of your career. Yeah, and you're standing 514 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 1: there and you're still able to see the cosmic joke 515 00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:08,436 Speaker 1: you're You're still able to see with some perspective, how harmful, 516 00:29:08,476 --> 00:29:12,396 Speaker 1: how pernician is, how destabilizing, Like we're all so vulnerable 517 00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:15,956 Speaker 1: to the perils of this game. You know. Yeah, I 518 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:18,516 Speaker 1: can kind of feel like, yeah, this can't sustain itself. 519 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:22,316 Speaker 1: I'm getting older, I'm getting grays in the beard. It's 520 00:29:22,556 --> 00:29:25,476 Speaker 1: it's fine, it's okay. Just keep it moving and continue 521 00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 1: to find ways to express yourself and be honest in 522 00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:33,516 Speaker 1: your art. But you only win by leaving the game. 523 00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 1: And again, I think that is actually the true comic 524 00:29:36,836 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: understands the joke of it all. That would be the 525 00:29:39,316 --> 00:30:20,476 Speaker 1: most comedian thing to do. Hey, thanks so much for listening. 526 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 1: Join me next week when I talked to Vanessa Bonds, 527 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: a social psychologist and author of the book You Have 528 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:30,356 Speaker 1: More Influence than you think. Vanessa is on a mission 529 00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:32,676 Speaker 1: to make us more mindful of all the ways we 530 00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:37,476 Speaker 1: already exert influence, often without realizing it. It's not just 531 00:30:37,596 --> 00:30:39,396 Speaker 1: the times that we're up in the front of the room. 532 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:42,556 Speaker 1: It's not just the times we're actively trying to persuade someone. 533 00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:45,876 Speaker 1: It's also the times we just make a throwaway comment 534 00:30:46,356 --> 00:30:49,076 Speaker 1: and suddenly that changes the way someone feels about something. 535 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,596 Speaker 1: You know, It's just our mere presence in a room 536 00:30:52,636 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 1: that changes, you know, how people talk about a particular topic. 537 00:31:07,516 --> 00:31:10,556 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 538 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:14,236 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 539 00:31:14,276 --> 00:31:18,356 Speaker 1: our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, 540 00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:23,356 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Andrew Bastola, and our associate producer Sarah McCrae. 541 00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: Louise Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 542 00:31:27,356 --> 00:31:30,756 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 543 00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. So big thanks to everyone there, 544 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:38,076 Speaker 1: and of course, of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 545 00:31:39,636 --> 00:31:42,116 Speaker 1: You can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram 546 00:31:42,156 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker