Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a
Speaker 1: former principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater who performed
Speaker 1: iconic roles such as Swan, Lakes, Odette, and O'Dell. At
Speaker 1: age nineteen, she has danced around the world and performed
Speaker 1: the repertoire of iconic choreographers such as George Balanshein, Jerome Robbins,
Speaker 1: Twyla Tharpe, and Merce Cunningham. Since retiring from the stage,
Speaker 1: Susan Jaffey has served as dean for the School of
Speaker 1: Dance at the North Carolina School of the Arts and
Speaker 1: as artistic director for the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. She recently
Speaker 1: returned to American Ballet Theatre as artistic director in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two. Jaffey has coached generations of dancers. Luckily, for her,
Speaker 1: the desire for young girls to become ballerinas has not
Speaker 1: changed over time.
Speaker 2: Years ago, I owned a ballet school, and I said,
Speaker 2: the most wonderful thing about owning a ballet school is
Speaker 2: everybody keeps having babies, and so those babies turn into
Speaker 2: five and seven year olds and half of them are women,
Speaker 2: and they want to come to the ballet school. So
Speaker 2: it's a great business. It was. I don't own it anymore,
Speaker 2: but it was a great business.
Speaker 1: But I wonder what is it about? Because for me,
Speaker 1: like people say, why do you go to the ballet
Speaker 1: or why do you go to the symphony and so forth,
Speaker 1: I said, just see people do things I can't do.
Speaker 1: It's like sports. Yeah, and I watched those people do
Speaker 1: that in my mouth is on the floor, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: those dancers. When did you realize, were you encouraged, were
Speaker 1: you that baby of a woman who was a dancer,
Speaker 1: When did you decide you wanted to do that with
Speaker 1: your life?
Speaker 2: Well? It was interesting because when I was younger, before
Speaker 2: I even got into dance, I had three aspirations. One
Speaker 2: was either to be a famous actress or a famous singer,
Speaker 2: or a princess a real.
Speaker 1: One time time.
Speaker 2: And so my mother we had a ymca across the street.
Speaker 2: I was about seven. She would you like to take
Speaker 2: a dance class for me? Not knowing what any of
Speaker 2: this was, I said absolutely, So she put me in
Speaker 2: a modern dance class and we were rolling on the
Speaker 2: floor and pretending we were ice cream melting or a
Speaker 2: dog basking the sun. And I remember saying, my little
Speaker 2: seven year old self said, is this what a princess does?
Speaker 2: And the answer was no. And across the hallway I
Speaker 2: saw the ballet and there they were. They were so
Speaker 2: pretty with their hair pulled up and the little crisscross
Speaker 2: ribbons around the ankles. And I said to my mother,
Speaker 2: that's what I want to do. So what was interesting?
Speaker 2: She did put me in the ballet class about six
Speaker 2: months later. And this is true, actually, Angelina Ballerina stole
Speaker 2: this from my own personal story. I had a prophetic
Speaker 2: dream and the dream was that I was being raised
Speaker 2: in the air by my partner. There was a big
Speaker 2: spotlight on me and all my classmates were running around
Speaker 2: me in a circle, and my little eight year old
Speaker 2: brain I was eight years old at that time, said, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm a star. And after that you couldn't stop me.
Speaker 2: If my mother said no, no, no, you can't go
Speaker 2: to ballet anymore, I would have run away from home.
Speaker 2: I was possessed. This was it for your happy Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was posessed. There was no way anybody was going
Speaker 2: to stop me. And I remember when I was ten
Speaker 2: years old, I announced to my mother that I was
Speaker 2: going to start drinking coffee because I heard it stunted
Speaker 2: your growth, and I was going, yeah, how were I
Speaker 2: was ten. I had heard it sunded at your growth
Speaker 2: and my mom was five eight my father was six foot,
Speaker 2: and I thought I can't grow because I said to her,
Speaker 2: I am going to dance with parishna cough, So I
Speaker 2: have to drink coffee to make sure that I don't
Speaker 2: grow too tall. And that's what I and my mother
Speaker 2: couldn't stop me. I there, I was with an escafe
Speaker 2: every morning.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding them?
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding.
Speaker 1: How many kids in your family?
Speaker 2: I have two brothers.
Speaker 1: None of them were they athletes sports.
Speaker 2: Wrestling or wrestling. Everybody was also play the opposite of ballot, Yeah,
Speaker 2: an instrument. You know. My twin brother went into the military.
Speaker 2: And I said, you know, you and I have the
Speaker 2: same job, except when I fall down, I get a
Speaker 2: bad review. But when you fall down, well you're dead.
Speaker 2: So it's it's the same job, beautifulful heart, So suburban Washington,
Speaker 2: you grew up in, yeah, Maryland, Maryland.
Speaker 1: Now when you're doing your jobs plural teaching and then
Speaker 1: administrating these big institutions, I've assumed that like sports, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of sports metaphors here. Obviously, you see people
Speaker 1: who they all have a basic skill set. They're not
Speaker 1: going to get in the door, see nless they have
Speaker 1: there at a certain level. They're athleticism and so forth,
Speaker 1: and they're balance and all the metrics that you use.
Speaker 1: What's the magic thing. What's the thing that people have
Speaker 1: who really are at the top of the game.
Speaker 2: Well, the baseline, as you said, is the technique, the
Speaker 2: right physicality for ballet and the technique and the strength.
Speaker 2: But above that, it's the movement quality. It's the presence.
Speaker 2: It's the ability to interpret, the ability to change the
Speaker 2: air when you move through space. That's that person that
Speaker 2: when you're sitting in a room and there are sixty
Speaker 2: people there, you go to that and your eyes go
Speaker 2: to that person and you say, who's that?
Speaker 1: What is who is? Like the movies in the same way.
Speaker 2: It can be, but it's it's an It's in the
Speaker 2: movies too. It's a deeper beauty. It's not just beauty,
Speaker 2: right right, It's a deeper beauty because there are a
Speaker 2: lot of very beautiful dancers out there in the world too.
Speaker 2: But if you don't have the discipline, the will, the drive,
Speaker 2: the passion and the extra ji sequa, you are not
Speaker 2: going to get into it.
Speaker 1: That's a very good phrase. Deeper beauty. Yeah. Where I
Speaker 1: was an acting school at NYU at Strasburg, they made
Speaker 1: us take a movement class. We had to take a
Speaker 1: movement class. Luba Ash was our movement teacher. She was
Speaker 1: a ballet dancer and she had a ballet company that
Speaker 1: was old just for inner city schools, and it was
Speaker 1: all for fun and for free. And she was this
Speaker 1: tough woman. She's tough and she said, I want you
Speaker 1: to be in my dance company. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. I thought, wow, this is it. I've
Speaker 1: obviously got the magic power, you know. She thinks I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be you. I'm like twenty one years old, and
Speaker 1: she goes, yeah, I want you to be in my
Speaker 1: dance company. And we go to like a school and
Speaker 1: do a performance and the girl comes running on the stage.
Speaker 1: She jumps in there. I grab her, I put her
Speaker 1: up in the air. She rolls into my arms, put
Speaker 1: her down and we addressed the audience and I run off.
Speaker 1: That's that's all I do is lift the girl and
Speaker 1: the guy, And later on I said to her, go,
Speaker 1: why did you put me in the ballet company shows?
Speaker 1: You were the only guy in the class that could
Speaker 1: lift the girl. You think guys are really puny.
Speaker 2: I couldn't lift the girl oftentimes, hell the guys.
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah? And also, you know, I think people have
Speaker 2: misunderstanding about men in ballet, you know, when they're in
Speaker 2: class and as they get older, you know, there are
Speaker 2: a lot fewer men than there are women. So that's
Speaker 2: kind of a kid in the candy store for a man, right,
Speaker 2: you know, And so they you know, because they're more rare,
Speaker 2: they get more opportunities right away, or if they're a
Speaker 2: really good job.
Speaker 1: It was yeah, I knew Jack very well.
Speaker 2: Oh you did.
Speaker 1: And my wife and I are big supporters of NDI.
Speaker 1: And he say that he didn't hesitate to say that.
Speaker 1: He was like, I was a straight guy in the
Speaker 1: world of ballet with all these gorgeous dances around me,
Speaker 1: I was a kid in a candy sto.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: He's coming out and saying, exactly, Yeah, Now, when you
Speaker 1: come up through the ranks and you're dancing, when does
Speaker 1: the administrative teaching talk to me about in your words, Barishnikov.
Speaker 1: Good enough, You're like when Bernstein goes on and like
Speaker 1: I said that he makes his debut when he and
Speaker 1: he nails it. Yeah, and you're kind of similar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you were eighteen years old. Of what happens.
Speaker 2: So I joined ABT in August.
Speaker 1: They invite you to join, Yes, they.
Speaker 2: Invited me to join. I auditioned. I was actually in
Speaker 2: the second company at the time. Right now it's called
Speaker 2: the Studio Company, but it was called Ballet Repertory Company.
Speaker 2: And so I was in the second company, and we
Speaker 2: heard that Barishnikov was going to take over the directorship
Speaker 2: of ABT. So he came to our class and watched
Speaker 2: our class, and at the end of the class, the
Speaker 2: teacher came up to me and said, Mesha, thinks you're
Speaker 2: very talented. And I remember thinking, I turned around, like
Speaker 2: was she talking to somebody behind me? Like really? I
Speaker 2: was invited to audition for the company, and it was
Speaker 2: hundreds of people and we all had this was just
Speaker 2: like a course line. We had numbers and after every
Speaker 2: combination they would get rid of fifty people. It was
Speaker 2: just nail biting and at the end, I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe there were five of us standing there in the
Speaker 2: middle of the room, and we all were offered contracts.
Speaker 1: So joined the company.
Speaker 2: To join the company. So I joined the company in
Speaker 2: August of nineteen eighty. This was when we just moved
Speaker 2: into the Michael Bennett Building downtown. This is where we
Speaker 2: still are eight ninety Broadway. So I was learning some
Speaker 2: solo work. I remember one day I was looking at
Speaker 2: the schedule and it was me and all of the
Speaker 2: big stars of the company, and I thought, that's a mistake.
Speaker 2: There must have been a mistake. And so I went
Speaker 2: up to the office and I knocked on the door
Speaker 2: and I said, excuse me, I think you've made a mistake.
Speaker 2: And the register turned around and looked at me, actually
Speaker 2: very coldly, and he said it wasn't a mistake. And
Speaker 2: so I backed out and went to the rehearsal. And
Speaker 2: this is where we were learning a ballet or a
Speaker 2: PoTA dua meaning dance for two pod de du called
Speaker 2: podsklov from this larger ballet La Corse. There and here
Speaker 2: was little pon Me from Bethesda, Maryland, with Gudenofflse Kirkland,
Speaker 2: Fernando Majonis, Marianna Chikosa, all these great stars of the
Speaker 2: company and I was learning this Potada and about a
Speaker 2: week later I got shuffled off to other rehearsals. So
Speaker 2: but it was just such a bizarre experience. Three months later,
Speaker 2: we're opening at the Kennedy Center, which is twenty minutes
Speaker 2: from where I grew up, and two of the largest
Speaker 2: stars of the company who were supposed to dance that
Speaker 2: Potada did not show up to the dress rehearsal. And
Speaker 2: they have had a history of drug use, this couple,
Speaker 2: and they were also romantically involved. They didn't show up
Speaker 2: to the dress rehearsal. But as you may well know,
Speaker 2: full orchestra, the entire crew, you know, the spots, everyone's
Speaker 2: standing there. Yeah, I mean this is thousands and thousands
Speaker 2: and thousands of dollars and the stars don't show exactly.
Speaker 2: So Misha fired them, and he came up to me
Speaker 2: and he said, how would you like to go on
Speaker 2: in the place of this famous star and dance with
Speaker 2: good enough? You're eighteen, I'm eighteen, And I said, oh,
Speaker 2: thank you so much, but you know, I'm only eighteen.
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be in the back and I'm the
Speaker 2: fifth girl on the back with little heels on, you know,
Speaker 2: is my debut performance with this. Well, it's interesting because
Speaker 2: I went on, and the only reason why I know
Speaker 2: I went on was I had one memory of it,
Speaker 2: and then there were photographs. That's the only reason why
Speaker 2: I know that I was actually on. And then after
Speaker 2: that everybody wanted to know who I was. So it
Speaker 2: kind of happened like that. But for years I kept
Speaker 2: thinking to myself. Now I'm thinking about ten years, I'm
Speaker 2: saying this to myself, when are they going to find
Speaker 2: out I don't know how to do this stuff?
Speaker 1: And our businesses?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the imposters side exactly. And so when I finally
Speaker 2: retired and then I started a school and somebody gave
Speaker 2: me a tape of my first performance, that performance, and
Speaker 2: I looked at it and I said, oh, I see
Speaker 2: why he wanted to push me. Because it was a quality.
Speaker 2: There was a quality that when I fasted forward as
Speaker 2: a teacher or as a coach, seeing that, actually, you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of people have a lot of great qualities
Speaker 2: and then there's that someone who has something extra and
Speaker 2: I had that, I thought, Oh. It took me until
Speaker 2: I retired to know. I mean, I you know, eventually
Speaker 2: I felt like I could be Susan Jaffey. After about
Speaker 2: ten years, I sort of grew into it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I could understand why he could see it.
Speaker 1: If you looked at yourself objectively, you could see it
Speaker 1: in your own performance. Yeah, what's the life of the
Speaker 1: ballet dancer? And and also I'm thinking about food and
Speaker 1: eating and nutrition and what's that life like for them
Speaker 1: when they're at the top, when they're in the company.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, now we are much more aware of making
Speaker 2: sure that the dancers are more supported with mental wellness
Speaker 2: in schools everywhere. Now there's a big focus on mental health.
Speaker 2: And I think particularly nowadays because of social media, because
Speaker 2: of iPhones, computers, et cetera, we as a society can
Speaker 2: be more disconnected from ourselves and so that will cause
Speaker 2: more mental anxiety. So we try to make sure that
Speaker 2: we support young.
Speaker 1: Some of them struggle.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean because it's lonely.
Speaker 1: I would imagine you're just working so hard.
Speaker 2: All you do is work, you work, But you love it. Okay,
Speaker 2: you love it. You know you're.
Speaker 1: Happy when they're happy dancing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're dancing. You love the art form. There's music. Yes,
Speaker 2: it takes tremendous will to dance and to you know,
Speaker 2: your muscles ache, or your muscles are cramping, or you
Speaker 2: have a slight injury, and or you want to push
Speaker 2: harder for that jump, and you don't have the stamina
Speaker 2: to get through this solo yet, but you're trying, and
Speaker 2: you know, and then on top of that, you have
Speaker 2: to be an artist on top of all of that, right,
Speaker 2: an interpreter of music and interpretive of space and interpretive emotion,
Speaker 2: interpreter of the character everything. It's so it's such a
Speaker 2: goal that seems so far out of reach that it
Speaker 2: keeps you striving and striving and striving to do it.
Speaker 2: And of course dancers are all perfectionists, which is not
Speaker 2: so good. You know. I am now a reformed perfectionist,
Speaker 2: which I'm very proud of, and I try to help
Speaker 2: dancers understand it doesn't matter if you do it perfectly today.
Speaker 2: It also doesn't matter if you do that perfect double pirouette.
Speaker 2: What matters is that your soul comes across the foot flights.
Speaker 2: That's all. Nobody cares whether or not you got that
Speaker 2: balance or you did you know. So they're also focused
Speaker 2: so much on their technique, even though they're also focused
Speaker 2: on the artistry that I try to remind them that,
Speaker 2: let's look at the bigger picture. But you know, they
Speaker 2: have to figure out how to fuel themselves so that
Speaker 2: they can accomplish their goals, that they can stay strong,
Speaker 2: they can get stamina. And also the food helps you
Speaker 2: to emotionally be more stable, right, food, proper nutrition. Well,
Speaker 2: if they're not fueling themselves properly, they can, Yeah, they
Speaker 2: can become emotionally unstable. You know, you're you're hungry all
Speaker 2: the time. I was that way. I you know, I
Speaker 2: smoked like a fiend when I was a dancer. I
Speaker 2: quit actually before I retired, but I was severely underfueled
Speaker 2: just to stay very skinny. And I remember there was
Speaker 2: this movie, I can't remember what it was. This lady
Speaker 2: she was a bride, her husband left her because he
Speaker 2: was gay, and she's screaming and crying, and somebody stops
Speaker 2: her from the car and he says, what's wrong, what's wrong?
Speaker 2: And she starts telling her story, and then she says,
Speaker 2: and I'm starving, and she falls back on the ground.
Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the movie. I think
Speaker 2: it was In and Out or one of those movies.
Speaker 2: And of course that hit a nerve in Meanwhile, I
Speaker 2: was talking in that yeah, and I started laughing so
Speaker 2: hard I couldn't actually had to walk out of the
Speaker 2: theater because I was so I was laughing so hard
Speaker 2: because I related to being starving. Now we are making
Speaker 2: sure that the dancers don't starve themselves. First of all,
Speaker 2: it creates more injury, more emotional instability, and all those things.
Speaker 2: And you need to fuel yourself properly, not just oh,
Speaker 2: I'm going to eat a bag of potato chips, properly
Speaker 2: so that you can do those amazing feats.
Speaker 1: All my life around people in movement and in dance,
Speaker 1: I mean like athletes, like syst It's in a contact sport,
Speaker 1: but the toughness to Yeah, you know, Nuriyev was obviously
Speaker 1: a gay man, but when I met him fleetingly, there
Speaker 1: was a power from him, like an athlete. Look, you're
Speaker 1: gonna play safety for the giants. Barishnikov's different. He was
Speaker 1: this tiny, little sparrow of a man. I met him
Speaker 1: at Toulon. We have big muscles, well, but with the
Speaker 1: perfect body. Yeah yeah, yeah, he was perfect. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, they all have a kind of they
Speaker 1: o possess a kind of a power, you know, And
Speaker 1: I was wondering for you as you come through the ranks,
Speaker 1: is it still viewed as a woman's world largely?
Speaker 2: No, I think it's more to evened out. I mean,
Speaker 2: men are still in the patada. Although it takes both
Speaker 2: men and women to make a great patada. The men
Speaker 2: are still doing the lifting because clearly physics say, you know,
Speaker 2: a five foot four woman cannot lift a six foot
Speaker 2: one man over her head and not get injured or
Speaker 2: fall of the ground. So the men are still lifting
Speaker 2: the women. But there are a lot more opportunities for
Speaker 2: men to dance.
Speaker 1: The men are coming into the program.
Speaker 2: Now, you know all.
Speaker 1: I mean when they be largely from one area of
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: No, No, they're from all over. They're from all over.
Speaker 2: And when you walk into the schools and they're all
Speaker 2: just you know, their muscles are shaking, and they're pushing
Speaker 2: into the air, and they're trying so hard, and their
Speaker 2: eyes are so eager, and they want to do so well.
Speaker 2: It's really it requires somebody who wants to go above
Speaker 2: and beyond what a human body can do. And that's
Speaker 2: why you feel the grit.
Speaker 1: That's why I go there.
Speaker 2: You feel the grit because it takes such tremendous will
Speaker 2: to do it.
Speaker 1: Artistic director, choreographer and former Ballermina Susan Jaffee. If you
Speaker 1: enjoy conversations with artists who have conquered the classical repertoire,
Speaker 1: check out my twenty nineteen episode with It's ok Proman,
Speaker 1: recorded live at the NYU Skirball Center.
Speaker 3: My parents, I thought that I had a good ear
Speaker 3: because I could repeat everything you know by singing it.
Speaker 3: And then I said, I want to play the violin.
Speaker 3: And I think they told me that I had a
Speaker 3: nice sound. Told me I started really when I was
Speaker 3: like almost five. He knows why what made you want it?
Speaker 3: I want it. I like the sound. I love the
Speaker 3: sound of the violin. I heard it under radio and
Speaker 3: I said, that's what I want to do.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Izak Perlman, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Susan
Speaker 1: Jaffe shares her approach to coaching dancers and her own
Speaker 1: journey from ballerina to dean and eventually director. I'm Alec
Speaker 1: Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. Over the past
Speaker 1: twenty years, the world of ballet has become significantly more
Speaker 1: I was curious what Susan Jaffee attributes this to and
Speaker 1: how the ballet world of today compares to when Susan
Speaker 1: jaffe began dancing.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, there were programs that started years
Speaker 2: and years, like thirty years ago, where dance was brought into,
Speaker 2: for example, underserved communities, and these programs expanded and as
Speaker 2: they got more money from foundations, they would bust the
Speaker 2: kids to the school. They would give them tights, leotards,
Speaker 2: t shirts, ballet slippers, et cetera. They would wash them
Speaker 2: after they were done, they would feed them lunch, and
Speaker 2: then they would send them back to school. So I
Speaker 2: mean even programs like that, And at ABT in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 2: we started something called Project Plea, which was a similar
Speaker 2: kind of a program, and Missy Copelan was sort of
Speaker 2: the spokesperson for this Project Pla, So we started that
Speaker 2: and as a result of all of that, there are
Speaker 2: much more black and brown dancers in our company, which
Speaker 2: is absolutely beautiful. And so we have a beautiful array
Speaker 2: of all kinds of nationalities, all skin colors. I think
Speaker 2: it's absolutely beautiful. And also because you get such different
Speaker 2: points of view artistically as well.
Speaker 1: You go from running the school. How do you get
Speaker 1: involved with the first managerial position you have as in
Speaker 1: North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I co ran the school in Princeton for
Speaker 2: seven years, but our school, yeah right, co founded it,
Speaker 2: and I just didn't feel that Princeton was a place
Speaker 2: for me, and that working with children up until the
Speaker 2: age of eighteen, it just it didn't feel like the
Speaker 2: right fit. I loved them, I loved teaching, I loved
Speaker 2: all that. But when actually the job of a coach
Speaker 2: came up after seven years, if coach came up at APT,
Speaker 2: I went back to New York and I was there
Speaker 2: for two years and coaching, and I loved it. I
Speaker 2: love taking all of the knowledge that I acquired. You know,
Speaker 2: I did so many additional things besides just rehearse. You know,
Speaker 2: I worked with the traumaturg. I did gyrotonics on the side,
Speaker 2: I did pilates. I did all of these things so
Speaker 2: that I could be as well rounded as possible. And
Speaker 2: so it's so fun to sort of download that more quickly,
Speaker 2: more readily because when I was younger in the dance company,
Speaker 2: they didn't go into much depths as far as in
Speaker 2: the character, and I kept feeling like there's something missing,
Speaker 2: you know, I need more. I need to understand. I
Speaker 2: need to live these characters as if they're me so
Speaker 2: that I can move an audience, because that's what I'm
Speaker 2: supposed to do. And so I did all of that.
Speaker 2: So it's really fun to be in the studio and
Speaker 2: get people to start thinking more deeply about the characters,
Speaker 2: more deeply about the music, more deeply about the quality
Speaker 2: of movement, and helping others to become empowered themselves. So
Speaker 2: also sort of nurturing out what's special about them, because
Speaker 2: of course you can never make somebody a carbon copy.
Speaker 2: They just become a bad copy, right, So they have
Speaker 2: to be you have to nurture what is special about them.
Speaker 2: So I love that. I love doing that.
Speaker 1: So it's coaching at ABT then Princeton.
Speaker 2: No, so I retired in two thousand and two. I
Speaker 2: started working with the Chairman of the board in two
Speaker 2: thousand and two, but in two thousand and three I
Speaker 2: also opened that school in Princeton. I came back to
Speaker 2: ABT from twenty ten to twenty twelve, and I was
Speaker 2: asked by the chancellor of the University of North Carolina
Speaker 2: School the Arts to come there and be the dean
Speaker 2: of dance. Actually there were five arts deans, and then
Speaker 2: we had a provost. And at first I said, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I've got a great life here, going to Carnegie Hall,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do you see opera, I'm going to
Speaker 2: Joe's Pub. I'm running around the reservoir. That was my
Speaker 2: form of exercise. I met the faculty there and they
Speaker 2: were in trouble. It's a long, long story, but I
Speaker 2: felt a calling to go because I thought I can help.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: So far as Nightingale, yeah, to help people.
Speaker 2: When I retired from dance, was I want to be
Speaker 2: of help. I really want to help. So I left
Speaker 2: and I went to Winston Salem, which I had no
Speaker 2: aspirations to be living in Winston Salem.
Speaker 1: You didn't want to live in Princeton, didn't want to
Speaker 1: live in Hopewell Junction. Did you want to go to
Speaker 1: Winston Salem?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: What's the difference culturally between the two in terms of
Speaker 1: the arts.
Speaker 2: Culturally, the main arts in Winston Salem was the school.
Speaker 2: We had a music school, drama, design and production, dance
Speaker 2: and film, and that was the main kind of.
Speaker 1: Culture culture in the community exactly. Not much off campus.
Speaker 2: There was some, but I you know, I came from
Speaker 2: New York, and you know, you can just be snobbish
Speaker 2: about the kind of you know, you get to see
Speaker 2: the biggest stars here, so you know, Okay, the local
Speaker 2: theater group is lovely, but you know, it just but
Speaker 2: then I found that the real meat and juice of
Speaker 2: that place was the community, which you know, there wasn't
Speaker 2: that much to do out there in Winston Salem. So
Speaker 2: what you did was this is when I started cooking.
Speaker 2: I started having dinner parties because that was the way
Speaker 2: I could get community, and it was wonderful and I
Speaker 2: loved it there. It actually took me. I was there
Speaker 2: for eight years, and that's where I really learned how
Speaker 2: to oversee faculty and to really be a leader in
Speaker 2: ways that supported the people that I was in charge
Speaker 2: of overseeing and also help people to understand that they're
Speaker 2: also responsible, you know. So it was just a really
Speaker 2: great learning curve for me. And I remember at one
Speaker 2: point thinking, you know, this is kind of good training
Speaker 2: to be an artistic director, you know, but I never
Speaker 2: thought I was going to be an artistic director. And
Speaker 2: after eight years and they said the median time for
Speaker 2: a dean is five to seven years because you burn out.
Speaker 1: Did you give it a little bit?
Speaker 2: Maybe? Yeah? I mean you I had other ideas. I
Speaker 2: wanted to make sort of dual courses for college degree courses,
Speaker 2: and I you know, that included choreography and music or dance,
Speaker 2: and it was it was going to be interesting. But
Speaker 2: I did feel like, gosh, I'm going to at one
Speaker 2: point run out of ideas. I basically created my job there.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were certain things I had to do,
Speaker 2: but all the extra things that I did I did
Speaker 2: on my own. I created a choreographic institute. I created
Speaker 2: five summer intensives. I did a lot of additional things.
Speaker 1: What did you take away from there? What do you
Speaker 1: remember most when you were there?
Speaker 2: It was really how to lead people in a way
Speaker 2: that would help them to understand gosh, I really at
Speaker 2: first I have to step up to the plate. But
Speaker 2: number two, it's okay to fail. And being a lifelong
Speaker 2: learner shouldn't be scary, you know. And this is acting,
Speaker 2: this is dancing, right. We fail every day, we fail,
Speaker 2: every second we fail. Up right, we think ame is
Speaker 2: to fail, Our aim is to fail, right.
Speaker 1: And so you got to get that out of the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you're dealing with people and you say, okay,
Speaker 2: these are some observations I see in your class and
Speaker 2: or in your rehearsal that I think could improve, and
Speaker 2: you know, first I always said, you know, these are
Speaker 2: the wonderful things that you do. Here's where you can improve,
Speaker 2: and then end with something really positive. And I remember
Speaker 2: this one faculty member, she just looked up at me
Speaker 2: and she said, thank you for making this not scary.
Speaker 2: And it really hit me because when I first got there,
Speaker 2: everybody was very nervous and a little bit defensive about
Speaker 2: getting any input from their dean. And by the end
Speaker 2: everybody was like staff, yeah, faculty, faculty, more faculty. And
Speaker 2: so then by the end they were like, oh, this
Speaker 2: isn't scary. It's great to learn and grow, it's great
Speaker 2: to have some insight, it's you know, we all are
Speaker 2: learning together. And so that really made me feel like, wow,
Speaker 2: this is really such a responsibility and also full of heart,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Really, because it sounds to me, before we move on
Speaker 1: to the next stop on the train here, it sounds
Speaker 1: to me like it was something that you made your own. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like they invited you down there and you were like,
Speaker 1: what do you want to do? And you crafted the
Speaker 1: program I do such as it was, and you were
Speaker 1: really really when you left it was something you had built.
Speaker 1: You go to Pittsburgh. This is the COVID era. It
Speaker 1: was COVID to you.
Speaker 2: It was. We spent every day all day because the
Speaker 2: dancers weren't there. They were at home taking class on Zoom,
Speaker 2: and my day consisted. I went into the office every day.
Speaker 2: I was I never stayed home. I was in the office.
Speaker 2: Nobody else was in the building except for me, my
Speaker 2: assistant and maybe the CFO. Nobody else was there and
Speaker 2: some school staff, and we literally were on Zoom all
Speaker 2: day long talking about COVID protocols. Well, we have to
Speaker 2: tape out twelve feet squares for the dancers. We have
Speaker 2: to break up the bars. Everybody has to be six
Speaker 2: feet apart, you know, there have to be hand Santa
Speaker 2: tier stations at every.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. It was insane and I had to
Speaker 2: say hard things like well, if you want to be
Speaker 2: in the company, you have to get a COVID vaccine.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: They did that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the school in the company.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the the company was at pitt and Pittsburgh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had a school and we had a company.
Speaker 1: So you leave there.
Speaker 2: So actually it was really interesting because I bought my
Speaker 2: dream house. I bought a beautiful house literally across the
Speaker 2: bridge from Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. I had three floors all
Speaker 2: to myself, a fireplace, a huge chef's kitchen, a big
Speaker 2: deck overlooking the allegay there. Oh yes, it's cool. Yeah, trees,
Speaker 2: grass birds. I loved it there. And then Ballet Theaters
Speaker 2: search firm called and said we'd like for.
Speaker 1: You to apply for add at.
Speaker 2: That point, ad and so I gosh, I thought. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I just bought this house. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm loving being here, et cetera. But I also said,
Speaker 2: you know, I am one of those people, and I
Speaker 2: know it every artist is. You don't want to be
Speaker 2: in your grave and have your gravestone say, I wonder
Speaker 2: what would have happened if I had only tried right,
Speaker 2: And so I'm that person, And I said, I will
Speaker 2: never know if they will choose me if I don't apply.
Speaker 2: So I applied and it was a little nail biting.
Speaker 2: They would the search firm would Latin would go for
Speaker 2: a month after an interview, giving me no feedback at all.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I did because I
Speaker 2: wasn't invested in getting the job because I loved where
Speaker 2: I was. I wanted to get the job, but I
Speaker 2: also loved where I was. But I thought to myself,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to tell the truth. I'm going to
Speaker 2: say everything that I think and everything that I think
Speaker 2: should happen. And I think the committee really appreciated just no,
Speaker 2: you know, beating around the bush. No, this is what
Speaker 2: I think, this is what I think you can do.
Speaker 2: This is what I think where the ballet world needs
Speaker 2: to go. And the day before the day the morning
Speaker 2: that the search firm called me, two of my friends
Speaker 2: texted me this big article from I think it was
Speaker 2: the Washington Post saying the next artistic director should be
Speaker 2: either you know, Misty Copeland or somebody else. And I
Speaker 2: remember saying to both of them, you know, ABT needs
Speaker 2: to do what they need to do. Go with God,
Speaker 2: you know, they need to do what they need to do.
Speaker 2: And then at nine six am, I was in the
Speaker 2: car going across the bridge and the search firm called
Speaker 2: me and the guy says, Hi, this is so and so,
Speaker 2: and I'm waiting and I'm thinking he's gonna tell me
Speaker 2: the committee's decided to move in a different direction. And
Speaker 2: he said, I just want you to know that you're
Speaker 2: the one.
Speaker 1: I just want you to know we decided to hire you.
Speaker 1: What the hell kind of effusiveness was that.
Speaker 2: He was just playing all foods?
Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was unbelievable fooling around. Of course.
Speaker 1: Dancer and artistic director Susan Jaffey, if you're enjoying this conversation,
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Susan Jaffey details the
Speaker 1: challenges of getting audiences back into the theater after the pandemic.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the thing. Susan
Speaker 1: Jaffey was appointed Artistic Director or ad of the Pittsburgh
Speaker 1: Ballet Theater in twenty twenty. She subsequently found herself challenged
Speaker 1: with running a ballet company during the height of the
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic. In twenty twenty two, Jaffee stars as
Speaker 1: Artistic director of the American Ballet theater. A year later,
Speaker 1: she would become artistic director and executive director. Jeffy now
Speaker 1: found herself dealing with the aftermath of the pandemic and
Speaker 1: its effects on a premier ballet company. I wanted to
Speaker 1: know what it was like to step into those roles
Speaker 1: after such a tumultuous time in the world.
Speaker 2: It's insane. Lost a lot of money, lost a lot
Speaker 2: of supporters as well, because people stopped going to the
Speaker 2: theater and they started staying at home and watching Netflix
Speaker 2: and you know, getting home movie theaters and you know,
Speaker 2: all of those things. And it took a long time
Speaker 2: to get the audience to come back. And so this
Speaker 2: was like four years, five years of getting the audience
Speaker 2: to come back into the theaters. I think, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: By and large, it's interesting because ballet in particular has
Speaker 2: really had a real surge of audience members. Now, even
Speaker 2: in Europe, more than opera, people are filling the theaters
Speaker 2: to see ballet, which is really interesting because in Europe
Speaker 2: mostly it was the opera house, you know, the Royal
Speaker 2: Opera House. Well, that artistic director who is in charge
Speaker 2: of the company, the ballet company got the name changed
Speaker 2: to the Royal Ballet and Opera House because the ballet
Speaker 2: is now funding right now the opera. So it's really
Speaker 2: interesting ballet's from the opera ware that the Royal Opera House. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the Royal Ballet and Opera House. Now there's more attendance
Speaker 2: in the ballet than there is in the opera right now.
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably true here too. I think
Speaker 2: it's taken longer for the opera to regain their audience,
Speaker 2: probably because operas are so long. People are more stressed out.
Speaker 2: People are going to work much earlier. They're working longer
Speaker 2: days than we used to. Back when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: you know, people were doing nine to five. That's not
Speaker 2: true anymore, right, So people maybe it's harder to go
Speaker 2: to the opera because you don't want to come home
Speaker 2: at eleven thirty at night and try to get, you know,
Speaker 2: a good night sleep. So it's been great to have
Speaker 2: ballet audiences come back.
Speaker 1: I'm also under the impression that one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that's a financial advantage that the opera has at Lincoln
Speaker 1: Center is they own the only institution that owns their building. Yes,
Speaker 1: they lease the land, but the building they build themselves,
Speaker 1: and they own the building, unlike everybody else is a
Speaker 1: tenant of Lincoln Center.
Speaker 2: Well, New York City Ballet owns their building, the Koch, Yeah,
Speaker 2: they own that and then they don't pay rent. So
Speaker 2: it's yeah, and Lincoln kirstein brilliant man. So he got
Speaker 2: the deal which was one dollar a year, so they
Speaker 2: don't pay rent. Of course they have labor. Now they're
Speaker 2: paying their labor. And if they don't fill the theater
Speaker 2: as a presenter when they're dark, then they're paying the
Speaker 2: You know, the labor is very very expensive. So you know,
Speaker 2: it's hard for everyone.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that at the student level there's disappointment of
Speaker 1: when they get let go, but it must be even
Speaker 1: harder when they're students, Like you're gett admitted to a program,
Speaker 1: and whether it's Julia or or ABT, whatever the school is,
Speaker 1: whatever the instructional facility is that at some point people
Speaker 1: are let go. Is there an attrition every year people
Speaker 1: going to your school? Whoever year you have to cull
Speaker 1: a certain number of people?
Speaker 2: Absolutely you do. But you know, I'm one of those
Speaker 2: people who believe that everybody has their own path and
Speaker 2: that one should never look at any event.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Of course I'm not talking about war or things like that,
Speaker 2: or tragedy. But any event that seems like it's an
Speaker 2: adverse situation can be turned into alchemically into something brilliant.
Speaker 2: And you know, I believe that people follow their path
Speaker 2: and that ballet could have been one part of their path,
Speaker 2: but it helped them to go into being a doctor
Speaker 2: or to being whatever. And when I was a dean
Speaker 2: and a student would come in and say, you know,
Speaker 2: Miss Jappie, I just feel like I don't want to
Speaker 2: do this anymore, I would say, yay, wow, you know,
Speaker 2: do you know how many people at your age know
Speaker 2: what they don't want to do? And you'll probably yeah,
Speaker 2: you'll probably make three times the salary of any ballet dancer.
Speaker 2: So congratulations. You know, I fully support you. You know,
Speaker 2: you take all of your experiences with you and you
Speaker 2: can build a beautiful life regardless of what it.
Speaker 1: Is when you're there. Now, I'm sure this is public record,
Speaker 1: but don't answer if you can. What's the budget of
Speaker 1: ABT now?
Speaker 2: Annually our expenses are about fifty one million. Fifty one million.
Speaker 1: That's all expensive, and most of it comes from individual supporters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, donors, tuition from the school, ticket sales, and fundraing,
Speaker 2: and not a lot of ground not a lot of
Speaker 2: government grants. We get you know, foundations that love the arts,
Speaker 2: you know, and want to support in me and love
Speaker 2: the company and all of those things. But yeah, not
Speaker 2: very much from the governments.
Speaker 1: What's a typical day in your life? Is there a
Speaker 1: typical day?
Speaker 2: Yes, the typical There aren't typical fires, but there are
Speaker 2: typical days. So when we're in rehearsal period, I start
Speaker 2: in the morning at ten with meetings, just sort of
Speaker 2: back to back meetings. And this is with my executive director,
Speaker 2: our marketing director, our director of production, our general manager,
Speaker 2: like all different kinds of meetings. And then I go
Speaker 2: into rehearsal and I rehearse I don't know, between five
Speaker 2: hours three to five hours, and then I have other meetings.
Speaker 1: You conduct the rehearsal.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I coach and do all this thing.
Speaker 1: You're not a person who does that for you.
Speaker 2: Oh I have a ton of staff doing that too.
Speaker 1: But if you are the principal instructor of the Balot company.
Speaker 2: Well I'm the I'm the artistic director. So I oversee no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I was aded, but now we have a new.
Speaker 1: Rather my apolicie. So you're the AD of course, then
Speaker 1: has ad you're there all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was doing ADED for one year and now
Speaker 2: we have an ED and wonderful ED. So yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: there coaching, giving notes. You know the name again ED,
Speaker 2: his name is Barry Houston. Yeah, great executive director. So
Speaker 2: we're very blessed. And then rehearsal day ends at six thirty.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I have to stay for an hour or so
Speaker 2: to do email, et cetera. When we go into performance,
Speaker 2: I start again at ten and I will go all
Speaker 2: day until ten pm. Literally, no breaks, no lunch, no pizza.
Speaker 2: Like you guys, got to have no breaks at all
Speaker 2: from ten to ten, twelve hour days and sometimes of
Speaker 2: course more you're not eating enough.
Speaker 1: I try to you got to eat, thank you. This
Speaker 1: is impowerful.
Speaker 2: And that's six days a week, and that's seventeen weeks
Speaker 2: a year. So it took me a while to get
Speaker 2: the stamina for that because you would know, the very
Speaker 2: very long days, and people don't realize how punishing those
Speaker 2: hours can be.
Speaker 1: You know, it's right, you have to perform. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: on the phone, raising.
Speaker 2: Money, raising money, going to events. You know, when I'm
Speaker 2: at the theater, going to dinners or after performance parties,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: fundraising as well, which I love.
Speaker 1: So you started when AD only.
Speaker 2: I started as AD in twenty twenty two December, and
Speaker 2: then I became ADED in May of twenty three. And
Speaker 2: then and then that lasted for one year, three days,
Speaker 2: ten hours, thirteen minutes and four seconds.
Speaker 1: You were starving the whole time, not that.
Speaker 2: I was counting, no, And that was tough because I
Speaker 2: literally didn't I didn't have a moment. I just didn't
Speaker 2: have a moment. And I, you know, I love the
Speaker 2: company and I wanted to make sure that I was
Speaker 2: the bridge to get that next fantastic ED. But I
Speaker 2: was going to carry it until we got that ED.
Speaker 2: And I was so happy we found a wonderful, wonderful
Speaker 2: executive director. So yeah, I never want to do that again.
Speaker 1: Who plans the season?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: I do. And you look at the history of the
Speaker 1: whole program and say, well, we'd only just did that
Speaker 1: three years ago or four years ago.
Speaker 2: I do have a record of all the things that
Speaker 2: we've done in the past.
Speaker 1: Do you w alone make the decision?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, somebody might say, oh, remember this
Speaker 2: ballet or that ballet. You know, we'll banter back and forth. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I make the ultimate decision. You know, a lot
Speaker 2: of people think, oh, you know, being an artistic director,
Speaker 2: you just choose the program, so I could do that. Well,
Speaker 2: it's so much more go ahead and try.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well it's not only the program, but working with the dancers,
Speaker 2: understanding what they can do, understanding why we would be
Speaker 2: bringing in this piece or that piece, what it's going
Speaker 2: to do for the company, and how much risk should
Speaker 2: you be taking, how much have you been doing the classics,
Speaker 2: et cetera. It's a balance and also my job is
Speaker 2: also to make sure that the dancers are healthy, happy, supported,
Speaker 2: you know, feeling good about themselves. Ready, Yeah, and that's yeah,
Speaker 2: it's not all day, no, every day. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Are there people over the years that you saw them?
Speaker 1: Because I see this in my business quite often. You
Speaker 1: sit there and think to yourself privately, good luck, and
Speaker 1: you think they're really not going to make it, and
Speaker 1: they become superstars. No name is obviously for people who
Speaker 1: you think you're going to become the greatest thing in
Speaker 1: this business and they don't make it. Have you been wrong?
Speaker 1: On a couple of occasions about the arc of someone's
Speaker 1: professional career.
Speaker 2: You know, when you're looking unless they get injured, right
Speaker 2: when you're looking at a dancer. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: you just can't hide behind your energy. You can't hide
Speaker 2: if you have passion or not, you can't hide. If
Speaker 2: you have work ethic, you cannot hide. If you have
Speaker 2: the right physicality to be able to execute that technique,
Speaker 2: you can't hide. If you're the artist, you can't hide.
Speaker 2: So I would definitely look at somebody and say, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, that person's going to be a star, and
Speaker 2: then they become a star. I haven't seen the only
Speaker 2: time when somebody who I think is super, super talented
Speaker 2: who does not become a star is when they just
Speaker 2: fall out of love with the ballet.
Speaker 1: They change. They change, the business doesn't change.
Speaker 2: They change exactly.
Speaker 1: My thanks to American Ballet Theater's artistic director Susan Jeffey.
Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City.
Speaker 1: Were produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial and our social media manager
Speaker 1: is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is
Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Radio compa