1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: the Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: former principal dancer with the American Ballet Theater who performed 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: iconic roles such as Swan, Lakes, Odette, and O'Dell. At 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: age nineteen, she has danced around the world and performed 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: the repertoire of iconic choreographers such as George Balanshein, Jerome Robbins, 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Twyla Tharpe, and Merce Cunningham. Since retiring from the stage, 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: Susan Jaffey has served as dean for the School of 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: Dance at the North Carolina School of the Arts and 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: as artistic director for the Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. She recently 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: returned to American Ballet Theatre as artistic director in twenty 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: twenty two. Jaffey has coached generations of dancers. Luckily, for her, 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: the desire for young girls to become ballerinas has not 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: changed over time. 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: Years ago, I owned a ballet school, and I said, 16 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: the most wonderful thing about owning a ballet school is 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: everybody keeps having babies, and so those babies turn into 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: five and seven year olds and half of them are women, 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: and they want to come to the ballet school. So 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: it's a great business. It was. I don't own it anymore, 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: but it was a great business. 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: But I wonder what is it about? Because for me, 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: like people say, why do you go to the ballet 24 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: or why do you go to the symphony and so forth, 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: I said, just see people do things I can't do. 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: It's like sports. Yeah, and I watched those people do 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: that in my mouth is on the floor, you know, yeah, 28 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: those dancers. When did you realize, were you encouraged, were 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: you that baby of a woman who was a dancer, 30 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: When did you decide you wanted to do that with 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: your life? 32 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 2: Well? It was interesting because when I was younger, before 33 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: I even got into dance, I had three aspirations. One 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: was either to be a famous actress or a famous singer, 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: or a princess a real. 36 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: One time time. 37 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 2: And so my mother we had a ymca across the street. 38 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: I was about seven. She would you like to take 39 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: a dance class for me? Not knowing what any of 40 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: this was, I said absolutely, So she put me in 41 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: a modern dance class and we were rolling on the 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,679 Speaker 2: floor and pretending we were ice cream melting or a 43 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: dog basking the sun. And I remember saying, my little 44 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: seven year old self said, is this what a princess does? 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: And the answer was no. And across the hallway I 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: saw the ballet and there they were. They were so 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 2: pretty with their hair pulled up and the little crisscross 48 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: ribbons around the ankles. And I said to my mother, 49 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: that's what I want to do. So what was interesting? 50 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: She did put me in the ballet class about six 51 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: months later. And this is true, actually, Angelina Ballerina stole 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: this from my own personal story. I had a prophetic 53 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: dream and the dream was that I was being raised 54 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 2: in the air by my partner. There was a big 55 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: spotlight on me and all my classmates were running around 56 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 2: me in a circle, and my little eight year old 57 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: brain I was eight years old at that time, said, oh, 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: I'm a star. And after that you couldn't stop me. 59 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: If my mother said no, no, no, you can't go 60 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: to ballet anymore, I would have run away from home. 61 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: I was possessed. This was it for your happy Yeah, 62 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: I was posessed. There was no way anybody was going 63 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: to stop me. And I remember when I was ten 64 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: years old, I announced to my mother that I was 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: going to start drinking coffee because I heard it stunted 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: your growth, and I was going, yeah, how were I 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: was ten. I had heard it sunded at your growth 68 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: and my mom was five eight my father was six foot, 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: and I thought I can't grow because I said to her, 70 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: I am going to dance with parishna cough, So I 71 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: have to drink coffee to make sure that I don't 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: grow too tall. And that's what I and my mother 73 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: couldn't stop me. I there, I was with an escafe 74 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: every morning. 75 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: Are you kidding them? 76 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: I'm not kidding. 77 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: How many kids in your family? 78 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: I have two brothers. 79 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: None of them were they athletes sports. 80 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: Wrestling or wrestling. Everybody was also play the opposite of ballot, Yeah, 81 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: an instrument. You know. My twin brother went into the military. 82 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: And I said, you know, you and I have the 83 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: same job, except when I fall down, I get a 84 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: bad review. But when you fall down, well you're dead. 85 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: So it's it's the same job, beautifulful heart, So suburban Washington, 86 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: you grew up in, yeah, Maryland, Maryland. 87 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: Now when you're doing your jobs plural teaching and then 88 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: administrating these big institutions, I've assumed that like sports, there's 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: a lot of sports metaphors here. Obviously, you see people 90 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: who they all have a basic skill set. They're not 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: going to get in the door, see nless they have 92 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: there at a certain level. They're athleticism and so forth, 93 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: and they're balance and all the metrics that you use. 94 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: What's the magic thing. What's the thing that people have 95 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: who really are at the top of the game. 96 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: Well, the baseline, as you said, is the technique, the 97 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: right physicality for ballet and the technique and the strength. 98 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: But above that, it's the movement quality. It's the presence. 99 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: It's the ability to interpret, the ability to change the 100 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 2: air when you move through space. That's that person that 101 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 2: when you're sitting in a room and there are sixty 102 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: people there, you go to that and your eyes go 103 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: to that person and you say, who's that? 104 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: What is who is? Like the movies in the same way. 105 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: It can be, but it's it's an It's in the 106 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: movies too. It's a deeper beauty. It's not just beauty, 107 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 2: right right, It's a deeper beauty because there are a 108 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: lot of very beautiful dancers out there in the world too. 109 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: But if you don't have the discipline, the will, the drive, 110 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: the passion and the extra ji sequa, you are not 111 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: going to get into it. 112 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: That's a very good phrase. Deeper beauty. Yeah. Where I 113 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: was an acting school at NYU at Strasburg, they made 114 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: us take a movement class. We had to take a 115 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: movement class. Luba Ash was our movement teacher. She was 116 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: a ballet dancer and she had a ballet company that 117 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: was old just for inner city schools, and it was 118 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: all for fun and for free. And she was this 119 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: tough woman. She's tough and she said, I want you 120 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: to be in my dance company. And I was like, 121 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: oh my god. I thought, wow, this is it. I've 122 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: obviously got the magic power, you know. She thinks I'm 123 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: gonna be you. I'm like twenty one years old, and 124 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: she goes, yeah, I want you to be in my 125 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: dance company. And we go to like a school and 126 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: do a performance and the girl comes running on the stage. 127 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: She jumps in there. I grab her, I put her 128 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: up in the air. She rolls into my arms, put 129 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: her down and we addressed the audience and I run off. 130 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: That's that's all I do is lift the girl and 131 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: the guy, And later on I said to her, go, 132 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: why did you put me in the ballet company shows? 133 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: You were the only guy in the class that could 134 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: lift the girl. You think guys are really puny. 135 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: I couldn't lift the girl oftentimes, hell the guys. 136 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: Is that true? 137 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah? And also, you know, I think people have 138 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: misunderstanding about men in ballet, you know, when they're in 139 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: class and as they get older, you know, there are 140 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: a lot fewer men than there are women. So that's 141 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: kind of a kid in the candy store for a man, right, 142 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: you know, And so they you know, because they're more rare, 143 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: they get more opportunities right away, or if they're a 144 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: really good job. 145 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: It was yeah, I knew Jack very well. 146 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: Oh you did. 147 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: And my wife and I are big supporters of NDI. 148 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: And he say that he didn't hesitate to say that. 149 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: He was like, I was a straight guy in the 150 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: world of ballet with all these gorgeous dances around me, 151 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: I was a kid in a candy sto. 152 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 2: Exactly. 153 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: He's coming out and saying, exactly, Yeah, Now, when you 154 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: come up through the ranks and you're dancing, when does 155 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 1: the administrative teaching talk to me about in your words, Barishnikov. 156 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: Good enough, You're like when Bernstein goes on and like 157 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: I said that he makes his debut when he and 158 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: he nails it. Yeah, and you're kind of similar. Yeah, 159 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: you were eighteen years old. Of what happens. 160 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 2: So I joined ABT in August. 161 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: They invite you to join, Yes, they. 162 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: Invited me to join. I auditioned. I was actually in 163 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: the second company at the time. Right now it's called 164 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: the Studio Company, but it was called Ballet Repertory Company. 165 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: And so I was in the second company, and we 166 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: heard that Barishnikov was going to take over the directorship 167 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: of ABT. So he came to our class and watched 168 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: our class, and at the end of the class, the 169 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: teacher came up to me and said, Mesha, thinks you're 170 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: very talented. And I remember thinking, I turned around, like 171 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: was she talking to somebody behind me? Like really? I 172 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: was invited to audition for the company, and it was 173 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: hundreds of people and we all had this was just 174 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: like a course line. We had numbers and after every 175 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: combination they would get rid of fifty people. It was 176 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: just nail biting and at the end, I don't know, 177 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 2: maybe there were five of us standing there in the 178 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: middle of the room, and we all were offered contracts. 179 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: So joined the company. 180 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 2: To join the company. So I joined the company in 181 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 2: August of nineteen eighty. This was when we just moved 182 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: into the Michael Bennett Building downtown. This is where we 183 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 2: still are eight ninety Broadway. So I was learning some 184 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: solo work. I remember one day I was looking at 185 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 2: the schedule and it was me and all of the 186 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: big stars of the company, and I thought, that's a mistake. 187 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: There must have been a mistake. And so I went 188 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: up to the office and I knocked on the door 189 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: and I said, excuse me, I think you've made a mistake. 190 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: And the register turned around and looked at me, actually 191 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 2: very coldly, and he said it wasn't a mistake. And 192 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: so I backed out and went to the rehearsal. And 193 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: this is where we were learning a ballet or a 194 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: PoTA dua meaning dance for two pod de du called 195 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: podsklov from this larger ballet La Corse. There and here 196 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: was little pon Me from Bethesda, Maryland, with Gudenofflse Kirkland, 197 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: Fernando Majonis, Marianna Chikosa, all these great stars of the 198 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: company and I was learning this Potada and about a 199 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: week later I got shuffled off to other rehearsals. So 200 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: but it was just such a bizarre experience. Three months later, 201 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: we're opening at the Kennedy Center, which is twenty minutes 202 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: from where I grew up, and two of the largest 203 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: stars of the company who were supposed to dance that 204 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: Potada did not show up to the dress rehearsal. And 205 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: they have had a history of drug use, this couple, 206 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 2: and they were also romantically involved. They didn't show up 207 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: to the dress rehearsal. But as you may well know, 208 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 2: full orchestra, the entire crew, you know, the spots, everyone's 209 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: standing there. Yeah, I mean this is thousands and thousands 210 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 2: and thousands of dollars and the stars don't show exactly. 211 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 2: So Misha fired them, and he came up to me 212 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: and he said, how would you like to go on 213 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: in the place of this famous star and dance with 214 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: good enough? You're eighteen, I'm eighteen, And I said, oh, 215 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: thank you so much, but you know, I'm only eighteen. 216 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be in the back and I'm the 217 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: fifth girl on the back with little heels on, you know, 218 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: is my debut performance with this. Well, it's interesting because 219 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: I went on, and the only reason why I know 220 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 2: I went on was I had one memory of it, 221 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: and then there were photographs. That's the only reason why 222 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: I know that I was actually on. And then after 223 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 2: that everybody wanted to know who I was. So it 224 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: kind of happened like that. But for years I kept 225 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: thinking to myself. Now I'm thinking about ten years, I'm 226 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: saying this to myself, when are they going to find 227 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: out I don't know how to do this stuff? 228 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: And our businesses? 229 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, the imposters side exactly. And so when I finally 230 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: retired and then I started a school and somebody gave 231 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: me a tape of my first performance, that performance, and 232 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: I looked at it and I said, oh, I see 233 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: why he wanted to push me. Because it was a quality. 234 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: There was a quality that when I fasted forward as 235 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 2: a teacher or as a coach, seeing that, actually, you know, 236 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: a lot of people have a lot of great qualities 237 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: and then there's that someone who has something extra and 238 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 2: I had that, I thought, Oh. It took me until 239 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 2: I retired to know. I mean, I you know, eventually 240 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: I felt like I could be Susan Jaffey. After about 241 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: ten years, I sort of grew into it. But yeah, 242 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 2: I could understand why he could see it. 243 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: If you looked at yourself objectively, you could see it 244 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: in your own performance. Yeah, what's the life of the 245 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: ballet dancer? And and also I'm thinking about food and 246 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: eating and nutrition and what's that life like for them 247 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: when they're at the top, when they're in the company. 248 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: Yes, well, now we are much more aware of making 249 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: sure that the dancers are more supported with mental wellness 250 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: in schools everywhere. Now there's a big focus on mental health. 251 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: And I think particularly nowadays because of social media, because 252 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: of iPhones, computers, et cetera, we as a society can 253 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: be more disconnected from ourselves and so that will cause 254 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: more mental anxiety. So we try to make sure that 255 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 2: we support young. 256 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: Some of them struggle. 257 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean because it's lonely. 258 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: I would imagine you're just working so hard. 259 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: All you do is work, you work, But you love it. Okay, 260 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: you love it. You know you're. 261 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: Happy when they're happy dancing. 262 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're dancing. You love the art form. There's music. Yes, 263 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: it takes tremendous will to dance and to you know, 264 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: your muscles ache, or your muscles are cramping, or you 265 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: have a slight injury, and or you want to push 266 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: harder for that jump, and you don't have the stamina 267 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: to get through this solo yet, but you're trying, and 268 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: you know, and then on top of that, you have 269 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: to be an artist on top of all of that, right, 270 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: an interpreter of music and interpretive of space and interpretive emotion, 271 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: interpreter of the character everything. It's so it's such a 272 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: goal that seems so far out of reach that it 273 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: keeps you striving and striving and striving to do it. 274 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: And of course dancers are all perfectionists, which is not 275 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: so good. You know. I am now a reformed perfectionist, 276 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: which I'm very proud of, and I try to help 277 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: dancers understand it doesn't matter if you do it perfectly today. 278 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: It also doesn't matter if you do that perfect double pirouette. 279 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: What matters is that your soul comes across the foot flights. 280 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: That's all. Nobody cares whether or not you got that 281 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: balance or you did you know. So they're also focused 282 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: so much on their technique, even though they're also focused 283 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: on the artistry that I try to remind them that, 284 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: let's look at the bigger picture. But you know, they 285 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 2: have to figure out how to fuel themselves so that 286 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: they can accomplish their goals, that they can stay strong, 287 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: they can get stamina. And also the food helps you 288 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: to emotionally be more stable, right, food, proper nutrition. Well, 289 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: if they're not fueling themselves properly, they can, Yeah, they 290 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: can become emotionally unstable. You know, you're you're hungry all 291 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: the time. I was that way. I you know, I 292 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: smoked like a fiend when I was a dancer. I 293 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: quit actually before I retired, but I was severely underfueled 294 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 2: just to stay very skinny. And I remember there was 295 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: this movie, I can't remember what it was. This lady 296 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: she was a bride, her husband left her because he 297 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: was gay, and she's screaming and crying, and somebody stops 298 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: her from the car and he says, what's wrong, what's wrong? 299 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: And she starts telling her story, and then she says, 300 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: and I'm starving, and she falls back on the ground. 301 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of the movie. I think 302 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: it was In and Out or one of those movies. 303 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: And of course that hit a nerve in Meanwhile, I 304 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: was talking in that yeah, and I started laughing so 305 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: hard I couldn't actually had to walk out of the 306 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: theater because I was so I was laughing so hard 307 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: because I related to being starving. Now we are making 308 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: sure that the dancers don't starve themselves. First of all, 309 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: it creates more injury, more emotional instability, and all those things. 310 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: And you need to fuel yourself properly, not just oh, 311 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to eat a bag of potato chips, properly 312 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: so that you can do those amazing feats. 313 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: All my life around people in movement and in dance, 314 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean like athletes, like syst It's in a contact sport, 315 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: but the toughness to Yeah, you know, Nuriyev was obviously 316 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: a gay man, but when I met him fleetingly, there 317 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: was a power from him, like an athlete. Look, you're 318 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: gonna play safety for the giants. Barishnikov's different. He was 319 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: this tiny, little sparrow of a man. I met him 320 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: at Toulon. We have big muscles, well, but with the 321 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: perfect body. Yeah yeah, yeah, he was perfect. But at 322 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: the same time, they all have a kind of they 323 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: o possess a kind of a power, you know, And 324 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: I was wondering for you as you come through the ranks, 325 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: is it still viewed as a woman's world largely? 326 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: No, I think it's more to evened out. I mean, 327 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 2: men are still in the patada. Although it takes both 328 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 2: men and women to make a great patada. The men 329 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 2: are still doing the lifting because clearly physics say, you know, 330 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 2: a five foot four woman cannot lift a six foot 331 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 2: one man over her head and not get injured or 332 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: fall of the ground. So the men are still lifting 333 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: the women. But there are a lot more opportunities for 334 00:17:59,160 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: men to dance. 335 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: The men are coming into the program. 336 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 2: Now, you know all. 337 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean when they be largely from one area of 338 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: the world. 339 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: No, No, they're from all over. They're from all over. 340 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: And when you walk into the schools and they're all 341 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: just you know, their muscles are shaking, and they're pushing 342 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: into the air, and they're trying so hard, and their 343 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 2: eyes are so eager, and they want to do so well. 344 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 2: It's really it requires somebody who wants to go above 345 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: and beyond what a human body can do. And that's 346 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: why you feel the grit. 347 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: That's why I go there. 348 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 2: You feel the grit because it takes such tremendous will 349 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: to do it. 350 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: Artistic director, choreographer and former Ballermina Susan Jaffee. If you 351 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: enjoy conversations with artists who have conquered the classical repertoire, 352 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: check out my twenty nineteen episode with It's ok Proman, 353 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: recorded live at the NYU Skirball Center. 354 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 3: My parents, I thought that I had a good ear 355 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: because I could repeat everything you know by singing it. 356 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 3: And then I said, I want to play the violin. 357 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: And I think they told me that I had a 358 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 3: nice sound. Told me I started really when I was 359 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 3: like almost five. He knows why what made you want it? 360 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: I want it. I like the sound. I love the 361 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: sound of the violin. I heard it under radio and 362 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: I said, that's what I want to do. 363 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Izak Perlman, go 364 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Susan 365 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: Jaffe shares her approach to coaching dancers and her own 366 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: journey from ballerina to dean and eventually director. I'm Alec 367 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. Over the past 368 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: twenty years, the world of ballet has become significantly more 369 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: I was curious what Susan Jaffee attributes this to and 370 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: how the ballet world of today compares to when Susan 371 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: jaffe began dancing. 372 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: I think, you know, there were programs that started years 373 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: and years, like thirty years ago, where dance was brought into, 374 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: for example, underserved communities, and these programs expanded and as 375 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: they got more money from foundations, they would bust the 376 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: kids to the school. They would give them tights, leotards, 377 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: t shirts, ballet slippers, et cetera. They would wash them 378 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: after they were done, they would feed them lunch, and 379 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: then they would send them back to school. So I 380 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: mean even programs like that, And at ABT in twenty thirteen, 381 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: we started something called Project Plea, which was a similar 382 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: kind of a program, and Missy Copelan was sort of 383 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: the spokesperson for this Project Pla, So we started that 384 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 2: and as a result of all of that, there are 385 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 2: much more black and brown dancers in our company, which 386 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 2: is absolutely beautiful. And so we have a beautiful array 387 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: of all kinds of nationalities, all skin colors. I think 388 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: it's absolutely beautiful. And also because you get such different 389 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: points of view artistically as well. 390 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: You go from running the school. How do you get 391 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: involved with the first managerial position you have as in 392 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: North Carolina. 393 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I co ran the school in Princeton for 394 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: seven years, but our school, yeah right, co founded it, 395 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 2: and I just didn't feel that Princeton was a place 396 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: for me, and that working with children up until the 397 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: age of eighteen, it just it didn't feel like the 398 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: right fit. I loved them, I loved teaching, I loved 399 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 2: all that. But when actually the job of a coach 400 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: came up after seven years, if coach came up at APT, 401 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: I went back to New York and I was there 402 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: for two years and coaching, and I loved it. I 403 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 2: love taking all of the knowledge that I acquired. You know, 404 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: I did so many additional things besides just rehearse. You know, 405 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: I worked with the traumaturg. I did gyrotonics on the side, 406 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: I did pilates. I did all of these things so 407 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: that I could be as well rounded as possible. And 408 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 2: so it's so fun to sort of download that more quickly, 409 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: more readily because when I was younger in the dance company, 410 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 2: they didn't go into much depths as far as in 411 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: the character, and I kept feeling like there's something missing, 412 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 2: you know, I need more. I need to understand. I 413 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: need to live these characters as if they're me so 414 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: that I can move an audience, because that's what I'm 415 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: supposed to do. And so I did all of that. 416 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: So it's really fun to be in the studio and 417 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: get people to start thinking more deeply about the characters, 418 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: more deeply about the music, more deeply about the quality 419 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 2: of movement, and helping others to become empowered themselves. So 420 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: also sort of nurturing out what's special about them, because 421 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: of course you can never make somebody a carbon copy. 422 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: They just become a bad copy, right, So they have 423 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: to be you have to nurture what is special about them. 424 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: So I love that. I love doing that. 425 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: So it's coaching at ABT then Princeton. 426 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: No, so I retired in two thousand and two. I 427 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: started working with the Chairman of the board in two 428 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: thousand and two, but in two thousand and three I 429 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: also opened that school in Princeton. I came back to 430 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 2: ABT from twenty ten to twenty twelve, and I was 431 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: asked by the chancellor of the University of North Carolina 432 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: School the Arts to come there and be the dean 433 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 2: of dance. Actually there were five arts deans, and then 434 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: we had a provost. And at first I said, no, no, no, 435 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: I've got a great life here, going to Carnegie Hall, 436 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 2: I'm going to do you see opera, I'm going to 437 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: Joe's Pub. I'm running around the reservoir. That was my 438 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 2: form of exercise. I met the faculty there and they 439 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: were in trouble. It's a long, long story, but I 440 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: felt a calling to go because I thought I can help. 441 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I wanted to do. 442 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: So far as Nightingale, yeah, to help people. 443 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: When I retired from dance, was I want to be 444 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 2: of help. I really want to help. So I left 445 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: and I went to Winston Salem, which I had no 446 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: aspirations to be living in Winston Salem. 447 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: You didn't want to live in Princeton, didn't want to 448 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: live in Hopewell Junction. Did you want to go to 449 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: Winston Salem? 450 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 451 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: What's the difference culturally between the two in terms of 452 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: the arts. 453 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 2: Culturally, the main arts in Winston Salem was the school. 454 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 2: We had a music school, drama, design and production, dance 455 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 2: and film, and that was the main kind of. 456 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: Culture culture in the community exactly. Not much off campus. 457 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: There was some, but I you know, I came from 458 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: New York, and you know, you can just be snobbish 459 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: about the kind of you know, you get to see 460 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: the biggest stars here, so you know, Okay, the local 461 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: theater group is lovely, but you know, it just but 462 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: then I found that the real meat and juice of 463 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: that place was the community, which you know, there wasn't 464 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 2: that much to do out there in Winston Salem. So 465 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: what you did was this is when I started cooking. 466 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: I started having dinner parties because that was the way 467 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: I could get community, and it was wonderful and I 468 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 2: loved it there. It actually took me. I was there 469 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: for eight years, and that's where I really learned how 470 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: to oversee faculty and to really be a leader in 471 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: ways that supported the people that I was in charge 472 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: of overseeing and also help people to understand that they're 473 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: also responsible, you know. So it was just a really 474 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: great learning curve for me. And I remember at one 475 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: point thinking, you know, this is kind of good training 476 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: to be an artistic director, you know, but I never 477 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 2: thought I was going to be an artistic director. And 478 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: after eight years and they said the median time for 479 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: a dean is five to seven years because you burn out. 480 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: Did you give it a little bit? 481 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: Maybe? Yeah? I mean you I had other ideas. I 482 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: wanted to make sort of dual courses for college degree courses, 483 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: and I you know, that included choreography and music or dance, 484 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: and it was it was going to be interesting. But 485 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: I did feel like, gosh, I'm going to at one 486 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: point run out of ideas. I basically created my job there. 487 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 2: I mean, there were certain things I had to do, 488 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: but all the extra things that I did I did 489 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: on my own. I created a choreographic institute. I created 490 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 2: five summer intensives. I did a lot of additional things. 491 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: What did you take away from there? What do you 492 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: remember most when you were there? 493 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: It was really how to lead people in a way 494 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 2: that would help them to understand gosh, I really at 495 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: first I have to step up to the plate. But 496 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: number two, it's okay to fail. And being a lifelong 497 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: learner shouldn't be scary, you know. And this is acting, 498 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: this is dancing, right. We fail every day, we fail, 499 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: every second we fail. Up right, we think ame is 500 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: to fail, Our aim is to fail, right. 501 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: And so you got to get that out of the way. 502 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you're dealing with people and you say, okay, 503 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: these are some observations I see in your class and 504 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: or in your rehearsal that I think could improve, and 505 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 2: you know, first I always said, you know, these are 506 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: the wonderful things that you do. Here's where you can improve, 507 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: and then end with something really positive. And I remember 508 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: this one faculty member, she just looked up at me 509 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 2: and she said, thank you for making this not scary. 510 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 2: And it really hit me because when I first got there, 511 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: everybody was very nervous and a little bit defensive about 512 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: getting any input from their dean. And by the end 513 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: everybody was like staff, yeah, faculty, faculty, more faculty. And 514 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: so then by the end they were like, oh, this 515 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: isn't scary. It's great to learn and grow, it's great 516 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 2: to have some insight, it's you know, we all are 517 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: learning together. And so that really made me feel like, wow, 518 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: this is really such a responsibility and also full of heart, 519 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 2: you know. 520 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: Really, because it sounds to me, before we move on 521 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: to the next stop on the train here, it sounds 522 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: to me like it was something that you made your own. Yeah, 523 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: it's like they invited you down there and you were like, 524 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: what do you want to do? And you crafted the 525 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: program I do such as it was, and you were 526 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: really really when you left it was something you had built. 527 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: You go to Pittsburgh. This is the COVID era. It 528 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: was COVID to you. 529 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: It was. We spent every day all day because the 530 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: dancers weren't there. They were at home taking class on Zoom, 531 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: and my day consisted. I went into the office every day. 532 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: I was I never stayed home. I was in the office. 533 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 2: Nobody else was in the building except for me, my 534 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: assistant and maybe the CFO. Nobody else was there and 535 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: some school staff, and we literally were on Zoom all 536 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: day long talking about COVID protocols. Well, we have to 537 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: tape out twelve feet squares for the dancers. We have 538 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 2: to break up the bars. Everybody has to be six 539 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: feet apart, you know, there have to be hand Santa 540 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 2: tier stations at every. 541 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: Oh. 542 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. It was insane and I had to 543 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 2: say hard things like well, if you want to be 544 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: in the company, you have to get a COVID vaccine. 545 00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 2: You know. 546 00:29:58,800 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: They did that. 547 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the school in the company. 548 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the the company was at pitt and Pittsburgh. 549 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we had a school and we had a company. 550 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: So you leave there. 551 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: So actually it was really interesting because I bought my 552 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: dream house. I bought a beautiful house literally across the 553 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: bridge from Pittsburgh Ballet Theater. I had three floors all 554 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: to myself, a fireplace, a huge chef's kitchen, a big 555 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 2: deck overlooking the allegay there. Oh yes, it's cool. Yeah, trees, 556 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: grass birds. I loved it there. And then Ballet Theaters 557 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: search firm called and said we'd like for. 558 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: You to apply for add at. 559 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: That point, ad and so I gosh, I thought. I 560 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: was like, oh, I just bought this house. You know, 561 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 2: I'm loving being here, et cetera. But I also said, 562 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: you know, I am one of those people, and I 563 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 2: know it every artist is. You don't want to be 564 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 2: in your grave and have your gravestone say, I wonder 565 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 2: what would have happened if I had only tried right, 566 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: And so I'm that person, And I said, I will 567 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 2: never know if they will choose me if I don't apply. 568 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: So I applied and it was a little nail biting. 569 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: They would the search firm would Latin would go for 570 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: a month after an interview, giving me no feedback at all. 571 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I did because I 572 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: wasn't invested in getting the job because I loved where 573 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: I was. I wanted to get the job, but I 574 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: also loved where I was. But I thought to myself, 575 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: I'm just going to tell the truth. I'm going to 576 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: say everything that I think and everything that I think 577 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: should happen. And I think the committee really appreciated just no, 578 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: you know, beating around the bush. No, this is what 579 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: I think, this is what I think you can do. 580 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: This is what I think where the ballet world needs 581 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: to go. And the day before the day the morning 582 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: that the search firm called me, two of my friends 583 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: texted me this big article from I think it was 584 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: the Washington Post saying the next artistic director should be 585 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 2: either you know, Misty Copeland or somebody else. And I 586 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: remember saying to both of them, you know, ABT needs 587 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: to do what they need to do. Go with God, 588 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: you know, they need to do what they need to do. 589 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: And then at nine six am, I was in the 590 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: car going across the bridge and the search firm called 591 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: me and the guy says, Hi, this is so and so, 592 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: and I'm waiting and I'm thinking he's gonna tell me 593 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: the committee's decided to move in a different direction. And 594 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: he said, I just want you to know that you're 595 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: the one. 596 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: I just want you to know we decided to hire you. 597 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: What the hell kind of effusiveness was that. 598 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: He was just playing all foods? 599 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell? 600 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was unbelievable fooling around. Of course. 601 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: Dancer and artistic director Susan Jaffey, if you're enjoying this conversation, 602 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 603 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get 604 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Susan Jaffey details the 605 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: challenges of getting audiences back into the theater after the pandemic. 606 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the thing. Susan 607 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: Jaffey was appointed Artistic Director or ad of the Pittsburgh 608 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: Ballet Theater in twenty twenty. She subsequently found herself challenged 609 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: with running a ballet company during the height of the 610 00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic. In twenty twenty two, Jaffee stars as 611 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: Artistic director of the American Ballet theater. A year later, 612 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: she would become artistic director and executive director. Jeffy now 613 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: found herself dealing with the aftermath of the pandemic and 614 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: its effects on a premier ballet company. I wanted to 615 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: know what it was like to step into those roles 616 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: after such a tumultuous time in the world. 617 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: It's insane. Lost a lot of money, lost a lot 618 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: of supporters as well, because people stopped going to the 619 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: theater and they started staying at home and watching Netflix 620 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: and you know, getting home movie theaters and you know, 621 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: all of those things. And it took a long time 622 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: to get the audience to come back. And so this 623 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: was like four years, five years of getting the audience 624 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: to come back into the theaters. I think, oh yeah, 625 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: By and large, it's interesting because ballet in particular has 626 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: really had a real surge of audience members. Now, even 627 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: in Europe, more than opera, people are filling the theaters 628 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: to see ballet, which is really interesting because in Europe 629 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 2: mostly it was the opera house, you know, the Royal 630 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 2: Opera House. Well, that artistic director who is in charge 631 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 2: of the company, the ballet company got the name changed 632 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 2: to the Royal Ballet and Opera House because the ballet 633 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 2: is now funding right now the opera. So it's really 634 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: interesting ballet's from the opera ware that the Royal Opera House. Yeah, 635 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: the Royal Ballet and Opera House. Now there's more attendance 636 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: in the ballet than there is in the opera right now. 637 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 2: And I think that's probably true here too. I think 638 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: it's taken longer for the opera to regain their audience, 639 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: probably because operas are so long. People are more stressed out. 640 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 2: People are going to work much earlier. They're working longer 641 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 2: days than we used to. Back when I was a kid, 642 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 2: you know, people were doing nine to five. That's not 643 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: true anymore, right, So people maybe it's harder to go 644 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: to the opera because you don't want to come home 645 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: at eleven thirty at night and try to get, you know, 646 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: a good night sleep. So it's been great to have 647 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: ballet audiences come back. 648 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm also under the impression that one of the reasons 649 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: that's a financial advantage that the opera has at Lincoln 650 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: Center is they own the only institution that owns their building. Yes, 651 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: they lease the land, but the building they build themselves, 652 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: and they own the building, unlike everybody else is a 653 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 1: tenant of Lincoln Center. 654 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: Well, New York City Ballet owns their building, the Koch, Yeah, 655 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 2: they own that and then they don't pay rent. So 656 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 2: it's yeah, and Lincoln kirstein brilliant man. So he got 657 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: the deal which was one dollar a year, so they 658 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 2: don't pay rent. Of course they have labor. Now they're 659 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 2: paying their labor. And if they don't fill the theater 660 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 2: as a presenter when they're dark, then they're paying the 661 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: You know, the labor is very very expensive. So you know, 662 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 2: it's hard for everyone. 663 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that at the student level there's disappointment of 664 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: when they get let go, but it must be even 665 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: harder when they're students, Like you're gett admitted to a program, 666 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: and whether it's Julia or or ABT, whatever the school is, 667 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,919 Speaker 1: whatever the instructional facility is that at some point people 668 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: are let go. Is there an attrition every year people 669 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: going to your school? Whoever year you have to cull 670 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: a certain number of people? 671 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 2: Absolutely you do. But you know, I'm one of those 672 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: people who believe that everybody has their own path and 673 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 2: that one should never look at any event. 674 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 3: You know. 675 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: Of course I'm not talking about war or things like that, 676 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: or tragedy. But any event that seems like it's an 677 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 2: adverse situation can be turned into alchemically into something brilliant. 678 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 2: And you know, I believe that people follow their path 679 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 2: and that ballet could have been one part of their path, 680 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: but it helped them to go into being a doctor 681 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,959 Speaker 2: or to being whatever. And when I was a dean 682 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: and a student would come in and say, you know, 683 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: Miss Jappie, I just feel like I don't want to 684 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: do this anymore, I would say, yay, wow, you know, 685 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: do you know how many people at your age know 686 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 2: what they don't want to do? And you'll probably yeah, 687 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 2: you'll probably make three times the salary of any ballet dancer. 688 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 2: So congratulations. You know, I fully support you. You know, 689 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: you take all of your experiences with you and you 690 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 2: can build a beautiful life regardless of what it. 691 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: Is when you're there. Now, I'm sure this is public record, 692 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: but don't answer if you can. What's the budget of 693 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: ABT now? 694 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 2: Annually our expenses are about fifty one million. Fifty one million. 695 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: That's all expensive, and most of it comes from individual supporters. 696 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, donors, tuition from the school, ticket sales, and fundraing, 697 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: and not a lot of ground not a lot of 698 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 2: government grants. We get you know, foundations that love the arts, 699 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 2: you know, and want to support in me and love 700 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 2: the company and all of those things. But yeah, not 701 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: very much from the governments. 702 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: What's a typical day in your life? Is there a 703 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: typical day? 704 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 2: Yes, the typical There aren't typical fires, but there are 705 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 2: typical days. So when we're in rehearsal period, I start 706 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 2: in the morning at ten with meetings, just sort of 707 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: back to back meetings. And this is with my executive director, 708 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 2: our marketing director, our director of production, our general manager, 709 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 2: like all different kinds of meetings. And then I go 710 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: into rehearsal and I rehearse I don't know, between five 711 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: hours three to five hours, and then I have other meetings. 712 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: You conduct the rehearsal. 713 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I coach and do all this thing. 714 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: You're not a person who does that for you. 715 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: Oh I have a ton of staff doing that too. 716 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: But if you are the principal instructor of the Balot company. 717 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 2: Well I'm the I'm the artistic director. So I oversee no, no, no, 718 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 2: I was aded, but now we have a new. 719 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: Rather my apolicie. So you're the AD of course, then 720 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: has ad you're there all the time. 721 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was doing ADED for one year and now 722 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 2: we have an ED and wonderful ED. So yeah, I'm 723 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 2: there coaching, giving notes. You know the name again ED, 724 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: his name is Barry Houston. Yeah, great executive director. So 725 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 2: we're very blessed. And then rehearsal day ends at six thirty. 726 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes I have to stay for an hour or so 727 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: to do email, et cetera. When we go into performance, 728 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: I start again at ten and I will go all 729 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 2: day until ten pm. Literally, no breaks, no lunch, no pizza. 730 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 2: Like you guys, got to have no breaks at all 731 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 2: from ten to ten, twelve hour days and sometimes of 732 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 2: course more you're not eating enough. 733 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: I try to you got to eat, thank you. This 734 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: is impowerful. 735 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 2: And that's six days a week, and that's seventeen weeks 736 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 2: a year. So it took me a while to get 737 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 2: the stamina for that because you would know, the very 738 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:17,919 Speaker 2: very long days, and people don't realize how punishing those 739 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 2: hours can be. 740 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's right, you have to perform. Yeah, and 741 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: on the phone, raising. 742 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 2: Money, raising money, going to events. You know, when I'm 743 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: at the theater, going to dinners or after performance parties, 744 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, there's a lot of 745 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 2: fundraising as well, which I love. 746 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: So you started when AD only. 747 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 2: I started as AD in twenty twenty two December, and 748 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 2: then I became ADED in May of twenty three. And 749 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 2: then and then that lasted for one year, three days, 750 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 2: ten hours, thirteen minutes and four seconds. 751 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: You were starving the whole time, not that. 752 00:41:54,560 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 2: I was counting, no, And that was tough because I 753 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 2: literally didn't I didn't have a moment. I just didn't 754 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 2: have a moment. And I, you know, I love the 755 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 2: company and I wanted to make sure that I was 756 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 2: the bridge to get that next fantastic ED. But I 757 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 2: was going to carry it until we got that ED. 758 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 2: And I was so happy we found a wonderful, wonderful 759 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: executive director. So yeah, I never want to do that again. 760 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: Who plans the season? 761 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:24,640 Speaker 3: Oh? 762 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: I do. And you look at the history of the 763 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: whole program and say, well, we'd only just did that 764 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 1: three years ago or four years ago. 765 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 2: I do have a record of all the things that 766 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 2: we've done in the past. 767 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: Do you w alone make the decision? 768 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, somebody might say, oh, remember this 769 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 2: ballet or that ballet. You know, we'll banter back and forth. Yeah, 770 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: but I make the ultimate decision. You know, a lot 771 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 2: of people think, oh, you know, being an artistic director, 772 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: you just choose the program, so I could do that. Well, 773 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 2: it's so much more go ahead and try. 774 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 775 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 2: Well it's not only the program, but working with the dancers, 776 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 2: understanding what they can do, understanding why we would be 777 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 2: bringing in this piece or that piece, what it's going 778 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 2: to do for the company, and how much risk should 779 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 2: you be taking, how much have you been doing the classics, 780 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 2: et cetera. It's a balance and also my job is 781 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 2: also to make sure that the dancers are healthy, happy, supported, 782 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 2: you know, feeling good about themselves. Ready, Yeah, and that's yeah, 783 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 2: it's not all day, no, every day. Yeah. 784 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: Are there people over the years that you saw them? 785 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: Because I see this in my business quite often. You 786 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: sit there and think to yourself privately, good luck, and 787 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: you think they're really not going to make it, and 788 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: they become superstars. No name is obviously for people who 789 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: you think you're going to become the greatest thing in 790 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: this business and they don't make it. Have you been wrong? 791 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: On a couple of occasions about the arc of someone's 792 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: professional career. 793 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 2: You know, when you're looking unless they get injured, right 794 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,399 Speaker 2: when you're looking at a dancer. I mean, I think 795 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 2: you just can't hide behind your energy. You can't hide 796 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 2: if you have passion or not, you can't hide. If 797 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 2: you have work ethic, you cannot hide. If you have 798 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 2: the right physicality to be able to execute that technique, 799 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 2: you can't hide. If you're the artist, you can't hide. 800 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 2: So I would definitely look at somebody and say, oh 801 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 2: my gosh, that person's going to be a star, and 802 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 2: then they become a star. I haven't seen the only 803 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 2: time when somebody who I think is super, super talented 804 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: who does not become a star is when they just 805 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 2: fall out of love with the ballet. 806 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: They change. They change, the business doesn't change. 807 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:27,760 Speaker 2: They change exactly. 808 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,760 Speaker 1: My thanks to American Ballet Theater's artistic director Susan Jeffey. 809 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,360 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 810 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: Were produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 811 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,320 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial and our social media manager 812 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is 813 00:44:53,560 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Radio compa