1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and sixteen, 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: which is airing in late September of twenty twenty one. 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to be interviewing Dori Clark, who is the 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: author of the book The Long Game, which is about 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: building a long term, thriving career in a world that's 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: really obsessed with short term thinking. Dory's a longtime friend 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: of mine. She's a great networker. I've met her through 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: various things that she's done, hosting various author dinners over 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: the years, gotten to know her as she's built her career. 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating book. I definitely recommend reading it. But 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: one of the things she talks about is, you know, 21 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: when you achieve various career breakthroughs, when you first look 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: at it, it's easy to say like, oh, it's, you know, 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: either a great stroke of luck or else. You know, 24 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: the person is just so talented and fabulous that of 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: course this was going to happen. But when you look 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: at it and analyze it in retrospect, it's often that 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: the person had lots of what she calls at bats, 28 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: so none of us bats a thousand, which means that 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: if you want to hit something out of the park, 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: you need to guarantee that you were getting more chances 31 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: to get more pitches so that you can hit one 32 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: of those. And you know, it's part of being the 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: right place at the right time. But sometimes you're not 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time for stuff 35 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: that you could have gotten but you just didn't. There's 36 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: a big element of subjectivity to all this. So Sarah, 37 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: let's talk about this. You've had some big breaks in 38 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: your career. Let's analyze those in retrospect and talk about 39 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: what's you know, being in the right place, right time, 40 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: but being prepared and having other things that could have 41 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: happened too well. I can think of two. So the 42 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: first you're gonna laugh. But I just thought of the 43 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: fact that like this podcast in a way could be 44 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: considered that. I mean, it was such wonderful timing that 45 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: I had thought about doing a podcast at the same 46 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: time you were mumbling it over, and that we were 47 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: able to create this partnership. It wasn't something that like, 48 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, was destined to be or anything, but it 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: was really really i don't know, like serendipitous combination. And 50 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been blogging for 51 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: like eight million years and in contact with you many 52 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: times prior. So I would say that would be the 53 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: first and then the second in my professional career. I mean, 54 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: I kind of always was interested in having some kind 55 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: of leadership role, but I wasn't sure exactly what that 56 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: was going to be. But I definitely am the kind 57 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: of person who puts themselves out there and I go 58 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: to meetings and I meet people. And when our hospital 59 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: systems started talking about making a residency program, I guess 60 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: I was just I was in the right place at 61 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: the right time and was able to, you know, start 62 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: doing that. And then when the program director stepped down, 63 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: I was able to step into his role. So I mean, 64 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: there are different paths that I could have ended up doing. 65 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't like I set out to do that specifically, 66 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: but to me that rings very true. It's like, well, 67 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: if you want to go in a certain direction, you 68 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: can have a lot of different options, and then as 69 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: long as you put yourself out there, probably one of 70 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: those at bats is going to make sense. And that 71 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: I've found that to be very true. So I really 72 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: like that idea. Yeah, I mean, Doriy's got a great 73 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: section in her book about in the year twenty nineteen 74 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: she tried a bunch of big goals, all of which 75 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: had a reasonable chance of happening. Like these were very 76 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: specific things that she wanted to do, and she had 77 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: a path to getting there four out of five like 78 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: crashed and burned. This is you know, this is a 79 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: woman who has you know, a huge course business as 80 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, many great public speaking, written several books. Like 81 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: you don't think that she's getting rejected for stuff, and 82 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: yet it still happens. I can to promise I get 83 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: rejected for stuff all the time, Like I submit stuff 84 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't doesn't fly. I had a funny thing happen 85 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: of a major publication which i'll go names, was commissioned 86 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: a piece, and then after it was written, commissioned for 87 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: it rejected it. I was just like, you have to laugh. 88 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what else can you do? Right? But I 89 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: was thinking for my you know, one of the big breaks. 90 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: Getting to do a Ted Talk, for instance, was a 91 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: fantastic stroke of luck. And I don't think it's you know, 92 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: it's certainly not because I was just like dustined, you know, 93 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: fabulous speaker going to be lauded up to the top 94 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: of the TED stage or something. What happened. There's a 95 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: couple of things that, you know, I was putting myself 96 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: out there a lot, like I was speaking at a 97 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: lot of different events. Had even something that could basically 98 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: be a Ted Talk audition, because I had done the 99 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: Edison Talks at the Chicago Ideas Festival the year before, 100 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: and those are eighteen minute talks with your little face 101 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: mic up up on stage and jeans and a cool shirt. 102 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: I mean, so basically they are like a smaller version 103 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: of the Ted Talk. And I had that video out there, 104 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,119 Speaker 1: so it was like an audition for that more or less. 105 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: And so then the reason I got noticed for it 106 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: is I had written an article for The New York 107 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: Times about tracking my time for a year, which I 108 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: was trying that just because I thought it would be 109 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: interesting and I could write about it for somewhere. I 110 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: had no idea what it would lead to. There were 111 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: sort of different things. I thought it might, you know, 112 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: maybe it would be a book, maybe be an article somewhere, 113 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: and maybe I could, you know, produce an audio series 114 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: on I don't know what it was going to do, 115 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: but I thought if I did the work for this, 116 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: it would turn into something. I happened to get noticed 117 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: by an editor at the Times who asked me to 118 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: write a piece about it. I did, marvelously. At the 119 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: same time, the TED Women conference for that year was 120 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: going to be about the theme of time, and so 121 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: they saw it, and then I had basically the audition 122 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: tape that I could show them. So it got to happen. 123 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: But it's like, you certainly can't. Like people have asked 124 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: me then since then, like how do I get to 125 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: be a TED spee. I'm like, I have no idea, 126 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: Like there's nothing I can tell you other than like 127 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: keep speaking, have tapes out there, you know, try to 128 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: get yourself noticed various places because you have no idea 129 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: where it will be, but you just try lots of 130 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: different things and maybe one will work. I love that, 131 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: you know. It's funny, Like part of me thinks, well, 132 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: it goes against the planning nature a little bit, because 133 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: if you're too rigid about your plans and you think 134 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: you're going to follow one specific pathway, you might end 135 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: up closing off avenues to turn out to be really 136 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: cool and fruitful. So I guess that would be a 137 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 1: reminder to that your plans don't have to be fixed. 138 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: They can be evolving. And then if you're interested in something, 139 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: it's probably worthwhile to say yes. I'm not saying say 140 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: yes to everything if you're not passionate about it, but 141 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: if something sounds cool and you can do it, why 142 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: not give it a try? Yeah? And what are the 143 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: point story makes with this, I mean actually talks about 144 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: all the things that didn't work in twenty nineteen, is 145 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: that none of this is entirely wasted. She was able 146 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: to repurpose some of the things that were rejected other places, 147 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, projects that didn't work out. She could cut 148 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: into other pieces and do other things with them, she 149 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: made some connections through other things that were useful. So 150 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: as long as you view it that way, it's like 151 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: you can plan to do these big things and understand 152 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: that there's an element of subjectivity of whether you'll get 153 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: them or not, but a lot of the prep work 154 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,559 Speaker 1: will still be useful. You know, I wasn't aiming for 155 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: a TED talk by writing, you know, about how I 156 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: spent my time for a year, necessarily, but I thought 157 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: I could use my time tracking data somewhere, and I 158 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: probably could even if you know, it had just been 159 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: my blog, a serious you know, a blog series, although 160 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: that would have been a lot less excited, and you 161 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: end up learning, right, Like, you learn from what doesn't work, 162 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: and you learn what you don't like. So yeah, it's true. 163 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: It's never a waste. Dory is awesome. All right, Well, 164 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: let's let's hear from Dory. Well, Sarah and I are 165 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: so excited to welcome Dory Clark to the program. So, Dory, 166 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Laura, thank you 167 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: so much. Yes, I'm Dori Clark. I teach at Duke 168 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: University's Fuquis School of Business. I write books. My most 169 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: recent is the long game, how to be a long 170 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: term thinker in a short term world. And mostly I 171 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: think of my work as finding ways to help smart, 172 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: talented people get their messages heard in a very noisy 173 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: and crowded environment. Yeah, and so to that end, you've 174 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: been doing a lot of different things. You write, books, 175 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: you teach, you do courses. Tell us a little bit 176 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: about the arc of your career. Well, I started out well, actually, 177 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: I started out with a lot of things that didn't work, 178 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: and I tried to be a university professor, and after 179 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: I got my master's degree, and I got turned down 180 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: by all the doctoral programs, and so then I became 181 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: a journalist like you, and then I got laid off 182 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: and I worked on political campaigns, including some big ones. 183 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: I worked on a governor's race and a presidential race 184 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: and they lost, but you know, so to strake it 185 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: out there. But I started my own business fifteen years ago, 186 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: and I feel very lucky because I've had the opportunity 187 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: to do a lot of things since then. In terms 188 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: of creating creating online courses you were mentioning some of 189 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: them might have. It was just announced last week that 190 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: one of my courses, strategic Thinking, was the number two 191 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: most popular course this year on the LinkedIn learning platform. 192 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: There's thousand courses. Yes, wow, thank you. It was pretty 193 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: pretty cool. One point two million people have taken it, 194 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: which which is kind of awesome. And university teaching and 195 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: writing and speaking and things like that, which are which 196 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: are pretty fulfilling ways to get to connect with people. Yeah, 197 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: that's awesome. So let's talk a little bit about your book, 198 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: The Long Game. People switch jobs a lot these days. 199 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: I was just reading a story about how with virtual 200 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: work there are people who have started jobs and ended 201 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: jobs without ever actually meeting their colleagues. I mean, particularly now, 202 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: what does it mean to the long game? Is that 203 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: something we should really be aiming for in this world 204 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: where people move around so much. People do move around 205 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: a lot, and certainly with the pandemic, everybody flex their 206 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: muscles for the short term, which is great. It's important. 207 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: We need to know how to adapt to change. We 208 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: need to be agile and flexible in all of these things. 209 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: But what I believe is that we can't just be that, 210 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: because ultimately, if we get in the habit, or if 211 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,239 Speaker 1: we are in the rut of only responding to external stimuli, 212 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: we're never really fulfilling our own agenda. I mean it's 213 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: almost like at work, just literally spending your entire day 214 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: answering email. It might feel productive to see the tally 215 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: and your inbox go down, but at the end of 216 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: the day, what have you actually accomplished. You've been doing 217 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: everyone else's agenda, not yours. And so for me, long 218 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: term thinking is really almost a kind of reclamation of 219 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: our autonomy and saying no, I am going to put 220 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: a steak in the ground. Here's a thing I want 221 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: to aspire toward, and it might take longer than we want, 222 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: it might not quite unfold the way we want, but 223 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: it's a thing we're aiming toward. Awesome. Well, I'm sure 224 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: both of us have been trying to play the long 225 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: game here as we go through a lot of different 226 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: things we've tried over the years, things that I've worked 227 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: and have not. But I want to talk about a 228 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: few of your tips that I thought we're best from 229 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: the book. First, my absolute favorite, no asks for a year. 230 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Dori's rule of no asks for 231 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: a year. What does this mean? Yes, well, I think 232 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: most of us have at one time or another been 233 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: mugged by what I like to call a favor assailant, 234 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: and this is somebody that you have just met. You know, 235 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: we met him yesterday, you met him last week at 236 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: some event, and they seem really nice and it seems 237 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: like things are going well. And then they send you 238 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: an email and they say, oh, hey, Laura, so great 239 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: meeting you, blah blah blah. I see that you write 240 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: for such and such publication. Hey, can you introduce me 241 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: to your editor? Or Hey, I see that you're connected 242 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn with Jeff Bezos. Can you introduce me to 243 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezis first him and Beyonce. I'm connected to everybody. Yeah, 244 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, it's just so ridiculous because you know, 245 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: you're just your heart sinks because you're like, oh, one 246 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: of those and you know, ultimately we kind of write 247 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: those people off like they've blown the relationship. And for me, 248 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: this really sunk in. This was like more than a 249 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: decade ago now, But I met this woman who, you know, 250 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: at the time was kind of on a path to prominence, 251 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: and she had spoken at this conference, and I, you know, 252 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty cool. It was a good 253 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: place to speak, and so I was not a favor assailant, 254 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: but I think that I was erroneously perceived as one. 255 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: I sent her a message. You know, we'd gotten to 256 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: know each other a little bit. This was not last week, 257 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: but it was, you know, a few months, and I said, oh, hey, 258 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: I saw your talk just came out from such and 259 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: such place. You know, I'd love to speak there one day. 260 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: What is your advice for someone about who wants, you know, 261 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: breaking into this? And you know, that's not a bad question. 262 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: I don't think it was terrible. But what I realized 263 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: was she didn't have enough context about me to know 264 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: that I was not going to immediately say, oh, thanks 265 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: for the advice, Hey, can you introduce me now? And 266 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: so she she ghosted me. She never wrote back, and 267 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: I realized, like, oh oh, that's where her head went. 268 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: And I realized I never wanted to be put, you know, 269 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: lumped in the position of being a favor assailant. And 270 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: so I created a rule for myself, which I think 271 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: is not a bad rule for other people as well. 272 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: No asks for a year, because you know, and I 273 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: don't mean little asks like oh hey, Laura, I like 274 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: that sweater, where'd you get that sweater? But I mean 275 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: political capital asks, because if we hold off on that entirely, 276 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: other people won't think we have an agenda, and we 277 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: won't even subconsciously formulate one. It becomes all about getting 278 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: to know the other person and legitimately building a relationship. Yeah, 279 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: that's awesome. It makes networking so much more meaningful if 280 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: you're not, you know, even thinking like what are we 281 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: going to do for each other? Right, it's just you know, 282 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: who are interesting people in the world. You also talk 283 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: about creating more at bats, So probably a lot of 284 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: baseball fans here, but you know, no one bats one thousand. 285 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: What does it mean to create more at bats for 286 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: yourself as you're building careers? And let's talk a little 287 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: bit about how you did that. I loved your stories 288 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: from twenty nineteen of the things that worked and didn't 289 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: Yes in the long Game. One of the chapters includes 290 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: a lengthy chronicle of all of the things that I 291 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: tried in twenty nineteen that just totally didn't work. I 292 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: think that that oftentimes, when you reach, you know, a 293 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: certain level professionally, it's easy when you have a quote 294 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: unquote failure story to tell, like the cute failure story 295 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: from like well, when I was Si and I worked 296 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: at McDonald's and the fro Yo machine malfunctioned. You know, 297 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: it's like, oh and there was a failure, and I 298 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: overcame it. But I thought it's really important to just 299 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: put it out there that whatever level you're at, there 300 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: are always setbacks. There's always telling you. I mean, there's 301 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: probably even people telling Oprah like, no, sorry, that won't work. 302 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: But certainly for me, even just a couple of years ago, 303 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: I went through this space where I had five big 304 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: goals for the year and they were all stretch goals, 305 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: but they were all very plausible goals. They were you know, 306 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: potentially within reach. And I went through the year and 307 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: literally four out of five of them just completely blew up. 308 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: They evaporated. Finally I get one big goal, which happened, 309 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: but it was a frustrating process for sure, and I 310 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: think it's worth being open about that that there's always 311 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: going to be gatekeepers. And so for me, one of 312 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: the most important lessons is that we need to realize 313 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: if we get overly fixated on one path to success, 314 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: we will probably statistically, we'll probably be stymied because you know, 315 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: things sometimes don't work out, But there are alternative paths. 316 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's like the doors closed, go in the window. 317 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: I want more people to realize there are windows and 318 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: you can go in those windows. There might be six 319 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: or seven windows, and hopefully if you're getting all of them, 320 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: you might get through one. All right, We're going to 321 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: take a quick ad break and then we'll be right 322 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: back with Dori Clark. Hello, we are back just for 323 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: a minute in our own adbed because we wanted to 324 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: tell you about a new, fun, little venture we are 325 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: starting up. For a while, Laura and I have had 326 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: the idea of trying to add a more interactive element 327 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: to this podcast. I think we all feel like we 328 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: need it during these times when you know, big in 329 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: person get togethers are a little harder to do, and 330 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: so we are creating our own Patreon so that we 331 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: can offer Zoom monthly meetups to talk about all things fitting, work, family, 332 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: and life together. These will be interactive, You'll get a 333 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: chance to share and ask questions, and I just feel 334 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: like it will add a little bit to our community. 335 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: Nothing will change about our podcast, so this is just 336 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: an extra little thing that we're offering. So for details, 337 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: please check out either of our websites. Yeah, It's going 338 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: to be so exciting to get to know more listeners 339 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: in person to have these conversations. We're also creating PDFs 340 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: every month with some of our best tips from the show, 341 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: from our blogs, from our experience, from what we've learned 342 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: from listeners. We'll be starting the first month with one 343 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: on children's activities, how we've learned to manage those schedules, 344 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: some of our tips that have come from talking with 345 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: you all. Hopefully that will be helpful too. So yeah, 346 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: come check out our Patreon page best of both worlds. 347 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: We'll have more details on our blog. Looking forward to 348 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: meeting some of you there. Well, I'm here talking with 349 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Dory Clark, who is the author of the book The 350 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: Long Game, How to be a long term thinker in 351 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: a short term world, and Dorry is sharing her tips 352 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: for how we can build a long, big, and sustainable career. 353 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: So you talk about strategic patience, and I think this 354 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: day and age, we all see most people are not 355 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: patient at all. I mean people want to see results 356 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: very very quickly. How long are we talking that we 357 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: should be expecting to do stuff before we receive results? 358 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: And how can we keep motivating ourselves in this world 359 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: where we're expecting to see you twenty likes on something 360 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: in the next two minutes. Well, I think it's an 361 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: important question, and obviously, depending on what your goal is, 362 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: the timeline is going to vary. But one thing, Laura, 363 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people fail to do 364 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: that is a relatively easy change that can make a 365 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: big difference, is to actually scope out the nature of 366 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: your goal in advance. One of the stories that I 367 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: tell in The Long Game is from Jeff Bezos writing 368 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: this since you're friends with him and all. He wrote 369 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: a twenty eighteen shareholder letter to Amazon shareholders, and he 370 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: tells this story about a friend of his that wanted 371 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: to get better at yoga and hired a handstand coach 372 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: for yoga, and the yoga handstand coach said that the 373 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: average person, if you ask them how long does it 374 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: take to master a handstand, they will say about two weeks, 375 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: And the actual truth is it takes six months of 376 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: daily practice. It is you know, it's not by off 377 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: by ten percent or twenty percent, it is off by 378 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: a factor of twelve. And I think for so many 379 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: of our goals, we are inadvertently doing that to ourselves 380 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: that we've never actually taken the time to really look 381 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: at or to ask people who have accomplished what we 382 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: want to accomplish. Okay, so chart it out for me. 383 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: What did this look like. It's not a terrible thing 384 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: to run a marathon. It's hard, but it can be done. 385 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: But what is terrible is if you think you're running 386 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: a half marathon and you're at the finish line and 387 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: somebody's like, oh, sorry, it's actually a marathon. And so 388 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: I think scoping it out can enable us to understand 389 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more what we're signing up for, so 390 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: we don't get blindsided and we don't get discouraged. Yeah, 391 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: and you know you talk about looking for rain drops, 392 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: like you were saying, these are small signs of success 393 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: that if you keep doing something you can start to 394 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: see little indications that things are going right. Yeah, that's 395 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. For so many of us, I think 396 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: we you know, we're trained culturally to be looking for 397 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: the big win. You know, oh well now I'm up 398 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: on the podium. Okay, you know, finally done it. But 399 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: the problem is those things take a really long time, 400 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: and so along the way there are signs of success, 401 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: just like when a rainstorm is starting. It doesn't usually 402 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: go from zero to an instant deluge. There are a 403 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: few rain drops along the way where you're almost wondering, 404 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: like was that even? What was that? Was that a 405 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: rain drop? And you're doubting it a little bit. But 406 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: we need to look for those little signs because that 407 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: is what shows us we're moving in the right direction 408 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: and we're making progress. It might seem small, it might 409 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: seem random. Okay, you're invited to speak at a conference, 410 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: but they're not going to pay you. Or you're invited 411 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: to speak at a conference, but you have the random 412 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: little breakout session, not the keynote. You know, whatever it is. 413 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: You might diminish it, but no, the point is that 414 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: people are starting to be interested in what you have 415 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: to say. You know, maybe you're getting more LinkedIn requests 416 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: because hey, people are interested in meeting you. Those are 417 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: the signs we need to notice. Awesome, and another fun 418 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: tip from the book to keep our career sustainable long 419 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: term is to optimize for interesting that we shouldn't be 420 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: just thinking of what is the obvious next step, but 421 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: what makes an interesting life. I'm very curious how you've 422 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: done that in your life, because I think you have 423 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: a couple cool side projects you could tell us about. Yeah, 424 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: thank you. Well, I think so often in our cultural 425 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: conversation around you know, what are we here for? What 426 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: should we be doing? We tend to really polarize the 427 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation between either just optimizing for money. You know, oh, 428 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: let's let's just make a ton of money, make bank, 429 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: focus on that, or follow your passion, follow your heart. 430 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: And you know, that's great too, But a lot of 431 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: people don't necessarily know what their passion is, or they're 432 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: just they're just not sure. Maybe they've been working so 433 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: hard and so long they feel like they've kind of 434 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: lost touch with what it is. And so what I 435 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: like to suggest instead is that we just lower the bar, 436 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: make it easier for ourselves, take the pressure off, and 437 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: instead of looking for like your soul maje activity, just 438 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: say is it interesting? Do I want to learn more 439 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: about it? Is this a direction I would like to 440 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 1: move more in? And if you have a choice between something, 441 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: you know, two different things, pick the one that's more interesting. 442 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: And so in my own life, certainly I have worked 443 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: to try a lot of different things. I in the 444 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: last few years took a number of stand up comedy classes. 445 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: I have started writing musical theater and have completed a 446 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: two year training program in musical theater writing. So I've 447 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: been nurturing a lot of side passions. During COVID, I 448 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: started taking weekly ping pong lessons, so I've been working it. 449 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: I know you, Laura, You're very devoted to your choir, 450 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: which is really cool. I mean, you've got your own 451 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: interesting sidelines too. That's true though. I really like the 452 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: idea of the two year musical theater program. I think, 453 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,239 Speaker 1: and when Dori writes the next Hamilton, you guys are 454 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: all going to be hearing you. I heard her here first. 455 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: So all of this, you know, these cool things, and 456 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: writing your books and your career and all that, it 457 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: takes time. It takes time to invest in building a 458 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: career as well to get that breakthrough idea to reach 459 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: the next step. How do I find the time? You 460 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: have tracked your time? I know, and you discovered to 461 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: you that maybe true, but you have done it. Many 462 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: people don't when I suggest it. But you've discovered something 463 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: interesting of how you were, in fact making more time 464 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: through certain strategic activities. Can you tell our listeners a 465 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: little bit about that that is true. Yes, I didn't 466 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: know what I'd find when I embarked on my time 467 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: tracking experiment, but I am certainly a fan of data 468 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: in general, and Laura is a persuasive advocate of the 469 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: value of time tracking. So I actually did this twice, 470 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,360 Speaker 1: and I've written articles about all of what I excavated. 471 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: But I did a time tracking experiment in February of 472 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen and also again in December of twenty twenty. 473 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: So seeing over time what I've learned or what I'd 474 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: gotten better at, and something that actually was relatively constant, 475 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: it was something positive that I noticed in twenty eighteen 476 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: that I wanted to retain. Was you know, we always 477 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: think culturally in our conversation about multitasking is being bad. 478 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: You know, so all multitasking is terrible your you know, 479 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: your mind is distracted, You're not doing anything well. And 480 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: that is true if you are trying to do two 481 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: fundamentally similar tasks. You know, if I'm trying to simultaneously 482 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: respond to an email and be on Laura's podcast, that 483 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: would be bad. But there are types of complimentary activities 484 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: where you can actually multiply the benefit of it by 485 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: doing two things at the same time. So I really 486 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: tried to think about those paired activities. So something I 487 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: actually do super frequently. I did this last night is 488 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: I will be taking a long walk, which is a 489 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: good form of exercise and relaxation, and I'll call my 490 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: mom while I'm doing that. And so you know, I 491 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: try to never just call my mom when I'm sitting 492 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: on my couch, because I mean, that's that's fine. But 493 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: if I can kill two birds with one stone, I 494 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: would much rather do that. And you can do the 495 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: same thing with exercising and listening to professional development audio books, 496 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: or you're cooking dinner and you're whatever, you know, listening 497 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: to something. You could make sure that you are you know, 498 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,719 Speaker 1: to quote Keith Farrazi, that you're never eating alone, so 499 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: that you were dining and networking. So there's a lot 500 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 1: of possibilities. Yeah, I think a lot of our listeners 501 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: have never eaten alone over the last eighteen months because 502 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: they've had their old families in their house for all meals. 503 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: That's right. Networking with your preschoolers absolutely, But I do 504 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: want to pivot here to the pandemic because you know, 505 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: again part of playing the long game, we're going to 506 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: go through these ups and downs and these larger things 507 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: we can't control as well, and it can be very 508 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: frustrating if you put a lot of effort into building 509 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: a certain thing as part of your life and then 510 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: it disappears. So, for example, I'm sure you, like me, 511 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: did a lot of public speaking in twenty nineteen twenty twenty, 512 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: I'm guessing you did a lot less in person, and 513 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: our public speaking very much less, yes, very much less. 514 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: So you know, how did you pivot during the pandemic, 515 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: and how can our listeners think about ways that they 516 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: might look to pivot even as they are kind of 517 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: keeping their eye on the long term goal. So I 518 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: will answer this specifically about me and then kind of 519 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: draw a parallel that I hope is useful for other people. So, 520 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: for me, the biggest game changer during twenty twenty, because 521 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: you're exactly right, all the keynotes were canceled or they 522 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: were turned into virtual things. You know, nobody booked new ones, 523 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: so it it's something that had been a significant revenue 524 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: source for me just pretty much vaporized. But actually twenty 525 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: twenty was a remarkably successful year financially for me, and 526 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: the reason was that, you know, again, just like if 527 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: you're constructing a stock portfolio and you want to have 528 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: countercyclical things in your portfolio, want to have the stocks 529 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: and the bonds to balance each other out. In our careers, 530 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: we need to think about how can we hedge our 531 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: bets essentially, And so since twenty fourteen, I had been 532 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: experimenting with in investigating online courses and had been building 533 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of them, and I was envisioning much more 534 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: prosaic threats like a recession, or like maybe I would 535 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: get sick and wouldn't be able to travel or something 536 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: like that. But nonetheless there was a certain amount of 537 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: future oriented, long term thinking that I was doing. I realized, like, Okay, 538 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: this is nice. I like traveling, I like keynoting, but 539 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: there are circumstances in which this could become unsustainable. How 540 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: do I protect against that? And something that is virtual, 541 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: something that is asynchronous, is a pretty good answer. So 542 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: I had been cultivating that sideline for six years prior 543 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: to the pandemic hitting. So for me, that was the 544 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: key to being able to be equally, if not more successful. 545 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: And so the parallel that I'll draw for other people 546 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: is there's a section in the long game where I 547 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: talk about the concept of twenty percent time, which is 548 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: primarily associated with Google, that they encourage their employees to 549 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: pursue up to a fifth of their time on more 550 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: speculative projects that are not directly related to their day 551 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: to day jobs. And I want to suggest that we 552 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: should all be thinking about cultivating that for ourselves, you know, 553 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: whether we work for ourselves, whether we work for a company, 554 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: just carving out time for something different and experimental, because 555 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: doing that, that form of professional development on the side 556 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: enables us to be prepared for more things and basically 557 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: be more resilient because we're not putting all our eggs 558 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: in one basket. We're learning new things and exploring, and 559 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: it can serve the same function that slowly and steadily 560 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: my six years worth of exploration in online courses served 561 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: for me during the pandemic. Yeah, you could substitute the 562 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: course business line for the speaking business line and really 563 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: lean into that because it was already there. Well, so 564 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: this is all great Dory. We always end with a 565 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: love of the week, which is something that is just 566 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: fun for us. This week, I can go first because 567 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: I give you time to think about it. So I'm 568 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: really been I'm training for a half marathon, which will 569 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: not turn into a marathon. By the way, I am 570 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: sure that I will be still at thirteen point one miles. 571 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: And so I have this handheld water bottle Nathan handheld 572 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: a speed shot plus. But you could just like put 573 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: it in your hand and you don't have to grip it. 574 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: It's just like there. And so it's you know, I 575 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: was running with like a water bottle on my back 576 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: or my waist and that's awkward or you know, carrying it, 577 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, and you're gripping it. So this is much better. 578 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying it. So that's making running, you know, 579 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: ten miles at a time slightly less terrible. How about you? Also? 580 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: I love it? Wow? All right, Well I'm I'm going 581 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: to go to the other end of the health spectrum. 582 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, I run in a half marathon. So 583 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: what I'm going to pull back the curtain and lay 584 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: it all bare for you, Laura. I'm leaning full on 585 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: into middle age. And what I'm going to recommend is 586 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: an app that I just found out about called snore Lab. Awesome. 587 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: It's great, Oh my gosh, it costs I think you know, 588 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: it's a paid app. I think it costs maybe eleven 589 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: dollars for a year long subscription. But what it does 590 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: You plug it in next to your bed and it 591 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: records you all night and it tracks your level of snoring, 592 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: and then it enables you to ab test with different 593 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: interventions that you have, like oh, if I try nasal strips, 594 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: this works, and if I try a wedge fillow, you 595 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: know it's this much. And so it assigns you a 596 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: score and it tells you what percentage of the night 597 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: you're actually snoring and at what velocity. And so if 598 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: you're actually trying to be quantified, you know, to quantify 599 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: something in a logical way, and you're trying to fix 600 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: a problem for you or a partner that is annoying you, 601 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: then you actually have some data. So I'm all in 602 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: on snore lab. That's exciting. I once tried to record 603 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: my husband and it was a denial that it ever 604 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: happened made. I don't know who it was then, but yeah, 605 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: that sounds great, Dory, that's that's awesome. Well, tell our 606 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,959 Speaker 1: listeners where they can find you, and so they can 607 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: I know, you have a huge online presence that people 608 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: are going to want to check out. Thank you so much, Laura. 609 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely well. The new book again is called The Long Game, 610 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: How to be a long term thinker in a short 611 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: term world, And if folks are interested in that, of 612 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: course you can find it in all the typical book places. 613 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: But additionally, I have a free Long Game Strategic Thinking 614 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: self assessment, and folks can get it for free at 615 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: Doryclark dot com slash The Long Game. Awesome, Well, Dori, 616 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so great 617 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: to be here. All right, well, that was lots of 618 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: great career advice from Dory. As people listen, I particularly 619 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: like her advice no asks for a year, just a 620 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: great rule for networking in general, for playing the long game, 621 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: for being an awesome person and not one of those 622 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: annoying people always asking for stuff. So let's go to 623 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: our question. I definitely want to get Sarah's advice on 624 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: this because she's the one who's been in a group 625 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: employed setting for this situation. So our listener says, I 626 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: am feeling terrible in the first trimester of my pregnancy. 627 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: I want to be productive but just can't and also 628 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: can't tell anyone, so how to handle Well, Sarah, what 629 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: do you do. Yeah. So I guess I was in 630 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: this situation a couple of times, because I too felt 631 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: like utter garbage during my first trimester, every single time 632 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: without fail. And this is, by the way, the person 633 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: who wrote in it was an audio question, but because 634 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: she's anonymous, we'll keep it non audio. She mentions, this 635 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: is her second pregnancy, and with the first one she 636 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: did start feeling better at the second trimester mark, so 637 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: there is hope for her, but right now she's just 638 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: feeling like, oh my god, I had all these wonderful 639 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: systems and routines in place, and now I just feel 640 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: like I can't do any of them. So I am 641 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: exact same way. You have to give yourself permission to 642 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: minimize what you are asking of yourself, and I think 643 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: that takes away the kind of meta guilt that you have, 644 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: the negative feelings you have about not meeting your own expectations, 645 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: which are probably your expectations more than anybody else's. In fact, I, interestingly, 646 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: during both my I think this was actually not during pregnancy, 647 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: but it was during the early days of having a newborn. 648 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: I switched my planner out from a daily planner to 649 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: a weekly planner because I hated that I couldn't get 650 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: enough done to fill a whole blank page and it 651 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: just felt overwhelming. I was like, you know what, I 652 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: just need a small box for the day, because that's 653 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: really how I can think about getting through each day. 654 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: I'm going to do like my job and like maybe 655 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: one or two other small things and that's all that 656 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: is necessary. So you did mention your planning routines and rituals, 657 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: and this might be a time to feel like, what 658 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: can I strip down. The other thing that I will 659 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: mention is that I am the kind of person who 660 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: blurts out my pregnancies not to like everyone and everyone 661 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: in public, but often to my like bosses, just because 662 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: I I always ask myself, well, would I feel comfortable 663 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: talking to this person if I had a loss? And 664 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: sometimes the answer is actually yes. You know, if it's 665 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: a senior colleague that I've worked with for a while, 666 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: I would want them to be extra understanding if I 667 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: did have a loss. So in that case, there's nothing 668 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: to lose by saying, you know, I'm seven weeks pregnant. 669 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: I feel like garbage. I don't know if this is 670 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: going to come to fruition, but right now, this is 671 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: where I am. So again, that's not for everyone, but 672 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: we do have these societal ideas about when it's okay 673 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: to tell people about your pregnancy, and you might want 674 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: to just make sure that you're doing what works for you, 675 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 1: because for me, I did feel comfortable telling people earlier 676 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: than I guess was standard. Yeah, it's also possible that 677 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: people are noticing a lot less that you think they are. 678 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I keep coming across this with our listeners. 679 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: They just have like fabulously high standards for themselves that 680 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: the rest of the world does not hold for themselves. 681 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: And so you know, if you just say, like, Okay, 682 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm getting done what I need to get done, and 683 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: I'll just let it go at that. You know, like 684 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: these are the three things that absolutely have to happen today, 685 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: I'll do them and then I will face down tomorrow 686 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: and know that probably I will be feeling better in 687 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: a few weeks and then I can return to whatever 688 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: it was that I was doing before or not. You know, 689 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: this may this may be the time to just not 690 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: worry about it so much. I would also say, you know, 691 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: if you could try and identify the times of day 692 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: when you do feel better and then put anything that 693 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: is going to require feeling okay during that window. And 694 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: it may be only an hour or two a day, 695 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,479 Speaker 1: but maybe it's like that, a certain you know point 696 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: you feel slightly better than other points of the day, 697 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: and just you know, try to have that cell awareness 698 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: and plan your days accordingly. Nap if you can. I 699 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: don't know. If you have an office door, you could 700 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: close it and just take a quick nap and hopefully 701 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: feel better after that. Well, this has been best of 702 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: both worlds. I've been interviewing Dori Clark, who's the author 703 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: of the new book The Long Game, and we will 704 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: be back next week with more on making work and 705 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me 706 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore 707 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at 708 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of 709 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more 710 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: on making work and life work together.