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Speaker 1: Body dyas. But Joseph Scott more, if you can imagine

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Speaker 1: a world where the access to a specific tool did

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Speaker 1: not exist that we are completely and totally depended upon nowadays,

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Speaker 1: it kind of leaves you scratching your head as to

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Speaker 1: how in the world did we ever get any crime solved? Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm reflecting back to I don't know, probably the early

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Speaker 1: start of my career, and I didn't have access to

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Speaker 1: modern technology, but the one fail safe that we could

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Speaker 1: always kind of, I don't know, fall back on, or fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: We did blood typing, those sorts of things. But you know,

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Speaker 1: prior to Sir Alec Jeffrey's application of DNA, I think

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Speaker 1: it was in eighty four in Great Britain, DNA just

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Speaker 1: was not a thing we knew about DNA. We knew

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Speaker 1: that we could probably understand our genetic code, but we

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Speaker 1: hadn't quite cracked that nut yet. But you know, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, the minds of families were not on

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Speaker 1: what Sir Alec Jefferies would do. Six years later, their

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Speaker 1: minds were on a tragic double homicide that occurred in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 1: ending the lives of a twenty year old and an

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old and until recently that case, those cases

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Speaker 1: have remained unsolved. That's no longer the case. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Backs Dave sometimes. And

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Speaker 1: I know that you probably you know, just because I've

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Speaker 1: worked in forensic science and have been around all the

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Speaker 1: scientific whiz bangs and those sorts of things. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: people are really impressed with that. Uh. I bet you

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Speaker 1: can reflect back to your days in radio and think

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Speaker 1: about using real to reel, having to take take a

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Speaker 1: record album and spin it backwards. I've seen them do

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Speaker 1: that to get to the top of the song, which

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Speaker 1: I was always fascinating. I couldn't do it. Yeah, I would.

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Speaker 1: If I was under that kind of pressure and a

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Speaker 1: studio radio studio, i'd, you know, I'd look like Lucy

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Speaker 1: and Ethol trying to stuff bond bonds down down my

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Speaker 1: shirt because they're on the assembly line. I couldn't do it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you guys did it. But that's

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Speaker 1: the way of the world, isn't it. You know us

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Speaker 1: in our general, you know, we look back at a

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Speaker 1: time long gone and we think, wow, it seemed kind

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Speaker 1: of simple then, but nowadays, Uh, you know, you look

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Speaker 1: back and how in the world did we accomplish anything?

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Speaker 1: But we certainly did in a more analog world, didn't we.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And you know, it's amazing. When I saw this story, actually,

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Speaker 2: when you told me about it, the first thing I

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Speaker 2: thought of was, so often, so often we get caught

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Speaker 2: up in the technology that we have today that we

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Speaker 2: don't realize sometimes that something as analog as a fingerprint

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Speaker 2: is enough to solve a crime. We think you've got

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Speaker 2: to have DNA from blood and seamen and hair fibers,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we have to have all of that

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Speaker 2: and let the computer technology read out tell us who

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Speaker 2: did what when. Really, those are just tools that are

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Speaker 2: used to solve crimes, and fingerprints are still an effective

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Speaker 2: way of proving somebody was in a particular place at

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Speaker 2: a particular time when a particular thing went down. And

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Speaker 2: if that fingerprint is in blood matching the victims, well,

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Speaker 2: now you've got three things tying you to there. You've

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Speaker 2: got their blood, you and your fingerprint beat that in court.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And look when fingerprints were

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Speaker 1: first were first I don't know, utilized in what we

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Speaker 1: would refer to back then as police science. This goes

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Speaker 1: all the way back to the eighteen nineties and a

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Speaker 1: gentleman that I encourage everyone that has an interest in

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Speaker 1: forensic science to look up Sir Edward Henry, and he

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Speaker 1: developed what was referred to as the Henry system of

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Speaker 1: fingerprint identification. And actually it's the Henry classifications system still

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Speaker 1: used today, and it's based upon a number of points

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Speaker 1: of identification that make a fingerprint unique to a specific individual.

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Speaker 1: With Sir Henry, he was faced with as you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: you know, he lived in London, he had been the

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Speaker 1: he was appointed actually as the Inspector General of Police

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Speaker 1: in Bengal, which was then India, and of course it

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Speaker 1: was ruled over by the British. And do you realize

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Speaker 1: back then, you know, we think about India today that

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Speaker 1: the population density it was equally as populous, not equally

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Speaker 1: as populous, but it was still densely populated, even compared

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Speaker 1: to a place like London. And so when he is

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Speaker 1: tasked with this idea of trying to specifically identify individuals,

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Speaker 1: he came to the conclusion that there had to have

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Speaker 1: been away and two uniquely, you know, kind of loop

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Speaker 1: around and say, okay, this particular latent print perhaps is

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Speaker 1: left behind by a suspect. And the first place to

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Speaker 1: do this was that everybody that came into that came

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Speaker 1: into custody of his office, they would be fingerprinted. And

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Speaker 1: now it seems kind of I don't know, it seems

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Speaker 1: kind of passe, I guess, But back then this was

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Speaker 1: something that was cutting edge because you know, you you

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Speaker 1: had to go out and shake the trees before then,

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Speaker 1: you know, burn the shoe leather in order to get

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Speaker 1: a you know, any kind of confession out of someone.

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Speaker 2: He was interesting Joe that what he went through building

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Speaker 2: a database of fingerprints is the exact same thing we're

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Speaker 2: still going through now with DNA, because if you've got

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Speaker 2: DNA of a possible suspect at unless their DNA is

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Speaker 2: in the system, you're going to run it and nothing's

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Speaker 2: going to come back. Now we have over the last

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Speaker 2: several years, and in particular on this show, in the

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Speaker 2: last year of doing shows, that Authoram has been able

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Speaker 2: to break open using genetic genealogy, which means I don't

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Speaker 2: have to have Joe Scott Morgan's DNA in the system.

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Speaker 2: I could have a great grandpa of your bloodline and

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Speaker 2: match that up somehow by building a family tree. It's

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Speaker 2: not easy as we make it sound, but there's that

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Speaker 2: connection that now has been built, which, to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you, it really scares me in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: Oh it does.

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Speaker 2: The libertarian in me gets really scared.

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Speaker 1: You know, Well, yeah, you have that bit. You know

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Speaker 1: that that does terrify people. And of course you know

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Speaker 1: famously I think recently, if I'm not mistaken, twenty three

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Speaker 1: and meters you know, has been bought out by let's

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Speaker 1: just say a large concern. Huh, that's out there, and

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Speaker 1: that really scares people, and you know, I think that

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Speaker 1: probably it should. The big promise was was that no

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Speaker 1: one would have access to let's let's face it, to

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Speaker 1: your life code. A lot of people suspect and are

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Speaker 1: worried about, well, if they plug my DNA in. It's

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Speaker 1: not so much about some kind of crime I've committed,

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Speaker 1: but what if they're looking for some kind of pattern

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Speaker 1: or disease of disease or predisposition disease. Will insurance companies

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Speaker 1: get their hands on that, you know, to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be qualified for some kind of

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Speaker 1: coverage because you have a predisposition to I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Colon cancer or heart disease or copde or whatever the

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Speaker 1: case might be. And so, yeah, rightly, So I think

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Speaker 1: people are worried about that, you know, not so much

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Speaker 1: with with fingerprints because it doesn't necessarily have encoding in it,

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Speaker 1: but it is unique to individuals. Here's here's a little

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Speaker 1: a little ditty that I'll pass it. Just try to

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Speaker 1: scare me, Joe, that's all you're doing. You're getting the

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Speaker 1: paranoia conspiracy nut. Dave really rankled right now, just thrown

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Speaker 1: it out there. Well, here's the really unique thing allegedly

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Speaker 1: allegedly actually Frontline did a series on this a few

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Speaker 1: years back, maybe it was in twenty ten. It kind

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Speaker 1: of it kind of paralleled the big report that came

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Speaker 1: out with the Obama administration relative to the needs of

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Speaker 1: forensic practice, And there was this Frontline program that came out.

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Speaker 1: Did you know you know this old adage about no

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Speaker 1: two fingerprints are the same. We've heard that over and over.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that there's never truly been a pure

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Speaker 1: empirical scientific study to prove or disprove that. It's just

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Speaker 1: this kind of assumption that hangs out there in the air. Now,

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Speaker 1: likelihood is is that no two truly match. But you

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Speaker 1: have a case, like you know a few years ago

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Speaker 1: where you had the Madrid train bombing, where you had

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Speaker 1: a I think it was a plastic grocery bag that

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Speaker 1: was found at the site of that and there was

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint on that plastic bag. And that fingerprint was

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Speaker 1: actually linked to a guy that lived in the northwestern

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Speaker 1: part of the United States and he is a he's

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Speaker 1: a fellow an American that had actually recently converted to

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Speaker 1: Islam Ohn he and he was an attorney and he

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Speaker 1: was under suspicion for this. And as it turns out,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably going to get this wrong. I might be

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Speaker 1: missing remembering. I think that the actual perpetrator turned out

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Speaker 1: to be a guy from Tunisia if I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. You know, fingerprint examination is

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Speaker 1: certainly a vaunted technical skill. I would not want to

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Speaker 1: do it because it's so tedious. I don't have a

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Speaker 1: mind where I can sit. If you just imagine if

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Speaker 1: you are a print examiner and you're sitting at a

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Speaker 1: draftsman's board, you know, like you see a cartoon to

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Speaker 1: sit at, or you know, a draft person that drafts

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Speaker 1: up and having to wear magnifying glasses and look out

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Speaker 1: for every bit of minutia in these prints that you're examining.

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Speaker 1: It would get really, really tedious. In that particular case,

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Speaker 1: I think they had five independent individuals that examined the

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Speaker 1: print and they all came to the same conclusion that

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Speaker 1: it was tied back to this guy in the northwestern

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Speaker 1: part of the United States. And as it turned out,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. Wow and so yeah, and these are five

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Speaker 1: experts that had looked at it, yeah and so yeah.

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Speaker 1: But as well, you know, for I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: guess eight or nine months, his highie was really biting

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Speaker 1: the sea because he thought that, you know, he thought

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Speaker 1: that he was done for. I mean, can you imagine

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Speaker 1: being connected to a train bombing in Spain?

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Speaker 2: Pretty bad to a fingerprint do fingerprint analysis.

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Speaker 1: Through fingerprint, But now we have exactly.

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Speaker 2: Everything's computerized, and we have AI, and we have a

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Speaker 2: lot of other things going on in the world of

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Speaker 2: fingerprint analysis. I would imagine that if we were wise,

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Speaker 2: recognizing that we haven't proved this as a fact, it's

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Speaker 2: an assumed fact that no two fingerprints are alike, that

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Speaker 2: once we had a fingerprint match, then we would go

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Speaker 2: a step further, we would look for other ways of

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Speaker 2: matching up the individual with other possibilities, and if we

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Speaker 2: don't have it, then get a good defense attorney and

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Speaker 2: start arguing that you found two snowflakes just alike. So

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Speaker 2: here you go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you know that's a great that's a

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Speaker 1: great analogy. No, no, to snowflakes are the same. You know.

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Speaker 1: But even Herbert who I mean Herbert Hoover, j Edgar

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Speaker 1: Hoover saw even before the FBI became the FBI, and

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Speaker 1: he was kind of running the show back then, he

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Speaker 1: understood the utility of fingerprints. And there's some great old

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Speaker 1: black and white images if you ever get a chance

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Speaker 1: to take a look of the big card room that

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Speaker 1: the FBI had, and if you'll imagine you remember going

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Speaker 1: and I know you do, going to college and we

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Speaker 1: worked in the library on the Dewey decimal system, where

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Speaker 1: we had several rows of card indices that were in

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Speaker 1: there and you'd have to go through it. That's how

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Speaker 1: we used to do our research before we had electronic research.

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Speaker 2: And explained to my kids about writing an actual term paper,

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Speaker 2: you know what it was.

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Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, it's it's rather tedious. Well, the data that

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Speaker 1: was coming in from these cards that were submitted to

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Speaker 1: the FEDS, where it became like this major collection point

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Speaker 1: with FBI in these in this huge room they actually

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Speaker 1: had they actually had card pullers, people that would go

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Speaker 1: up and down the road and they're wearing roller skates

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Speaker 1: and because it was so vast, you know, to quickly

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Speaker 1: kind of do this. This is before any kind of automation,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you jump forward and now those cards

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Speaker 1: going back became the modern cards that we have, and

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Speaker 1: now they're in a digital phase. You know, where you

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Speaker 1: can roll your print, you know, over an electronic pad

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Speaker 1: and it goes into the system. And of course APHIS

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Speaker 1: was was developed and it's the Automatic Fingerprint Index System

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Speaker 1: and so you can pick up these things. And I

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Speaker 1: think you make an interesting point, Dave, with AI. I

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Speaker 1: think that going back, if AI is applied to this

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Speaker 1: underlying supposition that no two prints are the same, and

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Speaker 1: you put AI on the case, wouldn't that be fascinating

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Speaker 1: to see if through AI, if that if that theory

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Speaker 1: could be proven. But you know, with our case cases, rather,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be disrespectful of the dead our

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Speaker 1: cases that we're talking about today from back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eight, things were not automated to that degree. And look,

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Speaker 1: just because you find a print at the scene does

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Speaker 1: not in fact mean that you are going to find

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Speaker 1: a print in the system. And let me ask you this,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to know anything about your personal history,

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Speaker 1: but have you ever been fingerprinted for a job. If

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Speaker 1: you go in for a job, you'll get fingerprinted and

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Speaker 1: they will kind of retain that card there. That happened

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Speaker 1: to me multiple times, you know, anytime I got it. Well,

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Speaker 1: but anytime you go into the military, you work for

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Speaker 1: any public institution, you know, school teachers are printed, all

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But that doesn't mean it's going

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Speaker 1: to be uploaded to aphis okay, where you have this

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Speaker 1: database of known fingerprints that are out there. And if

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Speaker 1: you've got somebody just like DNA that you mentioned, Dave,

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Speaker 1: they're not in the code of system. All you got

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day is merely a fingerprint. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking back, Dave. I think nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 1: let's see, who do we have. The Begies were all

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Speaker 1: the rage. We're just coming out of disco.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, nineteen six year ahead right now,

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Speaker 2: No disco, Yeah, disco was still remember the Okay, just

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Speaker 2: to give you an idea.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to break You're not going to start

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Speaker 1: singing disco duck. Are you please don't do that?

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Speaker 2: Rick D's and his cast of idiots. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: amazing how many radio stations Rick D's worked at that.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's yeah, I we used to work with him. And

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Speaker 2: at the time, you know, he was in Memphis when

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Speaker 2: Disco Duck became a hit. We could play this game

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Speaker 2: all day, but let's not in nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: Let's done. I'll look. It was in the.

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Speaker 2: Summer of nineteen seventy nine at Comiski Field in Chicago

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Speaker 2: when they had the Disco Sucks concert and blew up

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Speaker 2: the Disco Stuff records. And at the exact same time,

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Speaker 2: the Beg's were on their first world tour in three years,

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Speaker 2: and they were at the Oakland Dalla me To Coliseum

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Speaker 2: where they had sold out and people were standing in

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Speaker 2: line still hoping to buy scalp tickets. So that was

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. So in nineteen seventy eight, you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about a time where disco was on the radio and

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Speaker 2: was really still flying high Man YMCA and in the Navy,

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Speaker 2: and the soundtrack for Saturday Night Fever probably had grease

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Speaker 2: that soundtrack as well, because John Travolta was really hot.

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Speaker 2: But in that nime in nineteen seventy eight a nineteen,

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Speaker 2: I looked at pictures of the crime scene. It took

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Speaker 2: me some going back and looking because I was trying

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Speaker 2: to picture the vehicles were talking about. And in this

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Speaker 2: particular case November nineteen, nineteen seventy eight, police find a

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven Dodge pickup truck. It's green, It's parked

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Speaker 2: in a rest area on Root five and the driver's

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Speaker 2: side window of the truck is damaged. There is blood

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Speaker 2: seen inside and outside of the truck, but there's no

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Speaker 2: victims in the truck. Joe, there's blood and I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: when they say damage to the window, the window was

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Speaker 2: blasted out. But this nineteen seventy seven Dodge pickup truck,

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Speaker 2: it was only eleven years old, but it looked like

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Speaker 2: about fifty years old compared to it was a beat

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Speaker 2: up truck. This truck was in yeah, yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: not in good shape.

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Speaker 1: It kind of looks like the truck that we drew

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Speaker 1: when we were kids and we were just learning to draw.

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Speaker 1: It kind of looks like that the sides are carved in,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, one of the here's an interesting

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Speaker 1: kind of consideration here when you're when you're working a

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Speaker 1: CRM scene and you have what might be considered to be,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, kind of a messy crumbscene, you have

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Speaker 1: to ask yourself this question, what I'm seeing at the

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Speaker 1: crom scene. Is this something that existed prior to the

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Speaker 1: events in question, or is this something new? And you

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Speaker 1: have to assess that physical evidence at saying now, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you've got if you've got glass blown out of

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Speaker 1: a window, perhaps and it's a big deal as to

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00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: whether or not it's blown out or blown in. You know,

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Speaker 1: you probably know that this is something that has recently happened.

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Speaker 1: You know now all of the other damage because you know,

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Speaker 1: anytime you have a vehicle that's related to to some

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Speaker 1: kind of horrible crime, you wonder if you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: another vehicle was used to facilitate the crumb, maybe they

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Speaker 1: were run off the road or forced to stop, if

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Speaker 1: there's any kind of contact points on the vehicle, you know,

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Speaker 1: with paint from another vehicle. So just because an old

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Speaker 1: truck might have a bullet hole in it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: mean that that bullet hole is related to that specific event.

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Speaker 1: And you would go in and actually, and I've had

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Speaker 1: to do this before, along with the crumpson tech is

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Speaker 1: assess the defect in the truck. And let's just say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, you've got an old bullet hole in the

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Speaker 1: door or the side panels. If there's say a deposition

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Speaker 1: of rust in that area, some kind of oxidation that's

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Speaker 1: taking place, you know that this is this is not

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Speaker 1: something that's fresh. Now you've got freshly blown out paint,

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Speaker 1: say in one of the side panels, and the windows

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Speaker 1: are cracked in or cracked out, you know that this

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Speaker 1: is probably something new, Dave.

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Speaker 2: The amazing part of all of this, Joe, is that

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Speaker 2: as you're looking at the truck and you see all

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Speaker 2: the damage there, you have to back up to the

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Speaker 2: beginning of it and figure out how they even were

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Speaker 2: called to the scene. Because this is one of those

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Speaker 2: times where a rest area is always an odd place, Joe,

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Speaker 2: whenever I hear that in a story, because you've got

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Speaker 2: people who look ahead to the rest areacas, they've got

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00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 2: to go to a bathroom break or whatever. But oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: November in Massachusetts. I'm thinking it's pretty cold, so.

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Speaker 1: It is very cool.

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Speaker 2: And you're talking about November nineteenth, which is going to

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Speaker 2: be different than November. First, I know that in terms

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Speaker 2: of being cold, this is going to be a chilly night.

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Speaker 2: So you're not going to be there parking. I wouldn't think,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing a little lover's lane thing at the

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Speaker 2: rest area.

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Speaker 1: But I wouldn't. Yeah, I wouldn't think so. And you

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Speaker 1: know when you look at the actual truck, Yeah, from

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Speaker 1: the crom scene, there's snow on the ground right, and

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Speaker 1: you know you're looking at this and you know that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've been to Massachusetts in the winter, and

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Speaker 1: trust me, I love Boston. It's one of my favorite places.

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Speaker 1: It's not a place that I want to hang out

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Speaker 1: when the weather turns cold, because it could be absolutely

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Speaker 1: miserable up there.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing that gets me about this entire

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00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 2: story is that you've got a young couple Joe Teresa

353
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: is eighteen, Marcus twenty, and we have a truck where

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Speaker 2: you've got blood all in the area in the the

355
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Speaker 2: section where you sit. It's not like a you know,

356
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: trucks today have multiple You can have three rows of

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00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: seats now in a pickup truck. You know this didn't

358
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Speaker 2: have that. This is you've got one area to sit.

359
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: You can put three people on the bench seat. That's

360
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 2: what I'm looking at. And there's nobody in there, but

361
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Speaker 2: off to the side, near a guard rail, there are

362
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: two bodies. They have been Obviously, I'd say obviously, that's

363
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: the wrong thing to say. I guess when I think

364
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Speaker 2: of seeing blood all over a certain area and I

365
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: see two bodies, I'm thinking, just putting two and two together,

366
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: that those two bodies are somehow associated with the blood

367
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: in that truck. But yeah, because of the damage, you're

368
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: not thinking. You're actually not looking at this as a

369
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 2: lover's coral that went crazy and I shot myself and

370
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: then I shot her, and this shot myself. It's not

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Speaker 2: that set up at all.

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Speaker 1: No, because you know, in order to facilitate that, well,

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Speaker 1: more than likely you'd have to have a weapon at

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Speaker 1: the scene, right, and we don't have that. You'd have

375
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Speaker 1: to have a firearm, and you have no weapon at

376
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,479
Speaker 1: the scene. And I've worked a lot of what referred

377
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: to as murder suicides and they're in the news like

378
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems like every other weekend you

379
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: have one of these horrible events. Of course, it only

380
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: makes it through like one or two cycles of the news,

381
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: but it does happen. And so when you have an

382
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Speaker 1: individual or individuals that are found, say for instance, at

383
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Speaker 1: a you know, at a rest area, they can be

384
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Speaker 1: very sketchy locations. And particularly back in the seventies, they

385
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 1: really were. They were renowned, many of them dependent upon

386
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: where they were located. As sex pickup areas. You know,

387
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: you would have truckers that would pull in there, you

388
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: would have individual mails that would pull in looking for company,

389
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: perhaps with it could either be the male or female

390
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: sex they were trying to engage with. And you never know.

391
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: And plus here's the daunting task, Dave. When you're at

392
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 1: a it's not like being in your driveway, Okay, it's

393
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: not when you're at a roadside stop like this. This

394
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: is this is an open area where anybody could come

395
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: and go and they're going to be gone in a

396
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: matter of seconds after they've perpetrated their crime, they're back

397
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: on the road. And back then we did not have

398
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: CCTV everywhere. I mean, they had it, but it was

399
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: it was bad, really bad. And the thought that we

400
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: would actually have it there at some lonesome roadside stop

401
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: is slim and none, I think.

402
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: And that's what we have. And I was looking at

403
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: all the possible ways a police officer would end up

404
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: at a rest area and find, you know, the bodies,

405
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: and I thought I was looking for a phone call.

406
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: Did anybody see something and call police? I was going

407
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: to assume they had nine to one one, But even

408
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: before nine one one, it was you know, dial's aerra

409
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 2: for the police, you know, give me the police. And

410
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: so we don't have any call like that that I'm

411
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: aware of. What we do have is a police officer

412
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: out on his normal route and you know, checking the

413
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: rest area, not an uncommon occurrence, and he sees the truck.

414
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: One look at the truck. You know, as you're driving

415
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 2: by and your lights hit the truck, you're going to

416
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: see a blownout window and you're going to see blood

417
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: spatter all over the inside of this truck, which is

418
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: exactly what he saw. He doesn't see any bodies inside

419
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: the truck, and as he gets looking, he finds the bodies,

420
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: both of them. They're not laid over the guard I

421
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 2: misread it the first time, and I was thinking somebody

422
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: had draped the bodies over the guardrail, like as a

423
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: show of some kind of weird thing. But it wasn't.

424
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: They were actually laid near the guardrail.

425
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: The guardrail, and I think it was kind of a

426
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: depressed area. And isn't that fascinating. You can learn a lot,

427
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 1: I think, by the way, and I've talked about this before,

428
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: but it's something that I kind of preach foundational relative

429
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: to death investigation. How a body is treated and manipulated

430
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: in the post mortem state says a lot. I think

431
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: about the goals of the perpetrator, Okay, because if you're

432
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: looking to hide a body, and you take time to

433
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: hide a body even too, that is precious time ticking

434
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: off the clock where you're trying to put as much

435
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: distance between yourself and the event that has taken place.

436
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: That the fact that an individual would take that amount

437
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: of time to extricate these two young people from the vehicle,

438
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: which I believe that this event took place in the

439
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: vehicle and hide them along the way says a lot

440
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: about this person. Because look, I mean, how many times

441
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: have you do you ever look in cars? When you

442
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: pull off at a rest stop, I really don't. I'll

443
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: notice a place to park. I don't pay close attention. Now,

444
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: pay closer attention because Kim and I travel with our dogs,

445
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: and so we find a rest area we have to

446
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: get out where people commonly get out with their dogs

447
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: and take them back on a trail. Now, I'll look

448
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: around there to see, first off, if there are other dogs,

449
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: and I'll wait until they're gone, or if I'll see

450
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: anybody that's kind of sketchy, because most of that time

451
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: those back areas are you know, they're kind of look.

452
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: It's not a place I would commonly want to hang

453
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: out at night, all right, because they're quite terrifying, even

454
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: by today's standards, because you don't know the world's crazy place.

455
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: You don't know who's going to be back there. But

456
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: do you ever actually, when you're driving in, pay attention.

457
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: So the police officer, who this would have been his beat,

458
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: and this goes back to your original point, he's driving through.

459
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure that he's encountered all kinds of things in

460
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: this rest area over a period of time. He's probably

461
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: found people sleeping in the cars, which you can do,

462
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: but he's also found people engaging in let's just say,

463
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: less than savory activities in these locations, and he's the

464
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: only person that's there that's kind of a constant other

465
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: than the attendant in the rest area, if they're even there,

466
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: Dave this this young couple, This young couple, you know,

467
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: they were essentially I think last known to be alive

468
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: at about twelve thirty am at Yeah, and Teresa Marcou

469
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: who is eighteen, and Mark Harnish, who is twenty. They

470
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: had been at a party. Well, if I've got two

471
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: individuals that are missing and I find their car, their

472
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: truck in this case at a rest stop, I want

473
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: to know about this party they were at. I want

474
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: to know because, as you know, and I'm sure you've

475
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 1: experienced as I have, as have I. If the you know,

476
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: if the libations get to flowing at one of these things,

477
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: things get out of hand and you have people that

478
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: might very well loser temper, had something started there, had

479
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 1: something initiated there where they were followed and maybe trapped

480
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: in this location individual to kill I think any reasonable

481
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: person would say, well, we're hey, you know, the bodies

482
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: were removed from the vehicle. Other than the fact that

483
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: they're not there. Well, we'd look for things like when

484
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: you have multiple gunshot wounds, which is what we're dealing

485
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: with here, and also a commingling of blood. The police

486
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: believe that these two victims were pushed or were placed

487
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: or forced to be on the passenger side of the

488
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: vehicle so as they're shot and they begin to bleed

489
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: in these areas right there when subject is moved, if

490
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: the door is opened, that blood that's contained on their

491
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: bodies and maybe surrounding areas still wet. It hasn't congealed

492
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: at all, which blood actually does, particularly in colder weather

493
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: like this, you would have droplets that are falling passively,

494
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: passively dropping to the ground and then unless the perpetrator

495
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: picks them up in their arms, my suspicion is is

496
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: that you will have drag marks that will lead to

497
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: the location where they were. And again this goes to

498
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: the involvement of an individual in this case where they're

499
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: purpose to hide the body. But here's the other thing, Dave,

500
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: is that you've got a perpetrator that's screwing around inside

501
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: the cab, touching the bodies. Oh and by the way,

502
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: touching surface within the cap of the vehicle, if they

503
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: don't have gloved hands, guess what they're going to leave behind, well,

504
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 1: potentially fingerprints. And isn't it interesting that that little bit,

505
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: that decision that that individual made by screwing around inside

506
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: of this vehicle after he has slaughtered these two young people. Well,

507
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: they knew that they had a fingerprint, but Dave, they

508
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: had no idea who.

509
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 2: Had belonged to and having a fingerprint in nineteen seventy

510
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: eight and not having what we have now. Technologically, if

511
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: the guy, if they're local, or if the fingerprint rather

512
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: could be matched up locally with somebody right there, you know,

513
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: you can actually get a suspect. But this suspect didn't

514
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: leave the gun. He didn't leave he or she didn't

515
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 2: leave the gun or anything else. We have the two victims,

516
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: We got blood. We do know that they were last

517
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: seeing at a party at twelve thirty in the morning.

518
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: We do know that law enforcement did They did walk

519
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: through the neighborhood and knock on doors and did find

520
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: ear witness saying they heard the muffled sound of gunshots

521
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: around four am. So we got a three and a

522
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: half hour window between the time they left the party

523
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: and the time that the person heard the shooter belize

524
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: arrived after that time obviously, you know, so this is

525
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: really getting into be a weird investigation from the very

526
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: beginning because you don't have a gun. They didn't even

527
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: have bullets. After the fact, after the autopsy, you saw

528
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: where they found they did have evidence after the autopsy

529
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: they had the bullets, right.

530
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And you know that would if you have

531
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: no spent casings at the scene, that would give you pause.

532
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: One of two things. First off, is the caliber that

533
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: you recover at the autopsy, is it consistent with a

534
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: semi automatic handgun. Well, if it is, then that means

535
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: that you didn't find any spent brass at the scene,

536
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: brass that has been ejected. So are you dealing with

537
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: somebody that went back and picked up the brass? Are

538
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: you dealing with somebody that's carrying a revolver, which you

539
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: know you're going to carry the spent cartridges away with

540
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: you inside of the chamber of the revolver. And let

541
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: me jump back just one quick second, because and I

542
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: plan on doing us doing cases involving motor vehicles related

543
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: to homicides because there's such a dynamic here. Did you

544
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: know that if you have someone that is let's say

545
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: someone's in the driver's seat, okay, of a vehicle or

546
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: the passenger seat. Well, if you're in the passenger seat,

547
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: the right side of your face is going to be

548
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to the passenger side window. I mean, it

549
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: pretty much goes without saying. And conversely, you're going to

550
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: have the driver, who will be the left aspect of

551
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: their face will be immediately adjacent to the driver's side window. Dave,

552
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: you want to hear something really interesting about the side

553
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: windows on vehicles when they fracture, well, their safety glass.

554
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: And so when they fracture that that glass comes apart

555
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: in cubes. And so if you have enough velocity, all right,

556
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: when someone is either impacted by that glass flying through

557
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: the air, you know, maybe as a result of a gunshot,

558
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: or maybe as a result of being t boned, or

559
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: whether the case might be, you get these little right

560
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 1: angle lacerations on the face, and that fascinating, and they're

561
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: married up with this cubing of the glass that takes place.

562
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: And so, and I actually worked a case where God

563
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 1: took a car off into a canal and the vehicle

564
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: inverted in the canal, and he unstrapped, well, they weren't

565
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: strapped in. He pulled his buddy over into the driver

566
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 1: side of the vehicle. He swam out, left his buddy there,

567
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: and his buddy had dicing injuries on the right aspect

568
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: of his face, and we knew that he had been

569
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: moved as a result of that. He tried to put

570
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 1: his buddy in the driver's seat, is what it came

571
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: down to. And so that's one of the things that

572
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: we can look at anytime you have busted out glass

573
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: and a vehicle, and I suspect that they probably took

574
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: a look at that. I'd love to know what other

575
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: elements kind of flew toward the body. Did they find

576
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: glass that was embedded in the clothing. But what we

577
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: do know is that you're dealing with multiple gunshot wounds

578
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: for both of these victims. And we've got a time frame,

579
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: and this goes back to what we talked about earlier.

580
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: They leave this party and what was that time gaining it.

581
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 1: They're twelve fifteen at twelve thirty am, they leave the

582
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: party and the neighbor hears gunshots at It's an ear

583
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: witness to this. They hear gunshots at four am. Well, Dave.

584
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: I really wonder were they using this roadside area as

585
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: maybe the potential for to go parking if you will,

586
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: to sit there, and then all of a sudden, like

587
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: a bolt out of the blue, you've got this creature

588
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: that kind of climbs out of the darkness and for

589
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: whatever reason, decides to end both of their lives.

590
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: And that we're talking one year after the Son of

591
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: Sam murderers in New York that had been all the

592
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: rage and all the news where lovers lanes were getting

593
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: shot up all over the communiton in the boroughs of

594
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: New York City.

595
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: The forty four caliber killer is the other name that

596
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: they applied. And again he was using a revolver day, Yeah,

597
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: he was using a revolver in those cases. Yeah.

598
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: And so we've got we've got a lot going on here,

599
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 2: you know. But ultimately you got the fingerprint and nothing.

600
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 2: It just kind of sits there all years later, come

601
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: about two thousand and one. So you mentioned applying for

602
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: a job and having to do fingerprints. In two thousand

603
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: a man is applying to get a taxi cab license

604
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 2: and he has to give his fingerprint. Right now, this

605
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: is twenty two years after the murders of a young couple.

606
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: It's an unsolved murder. And this guy does his fingerprints,

607
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: nothing happens. I don't know if he got the job

608
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: or not. But lo and behold, somebody's working the cold cases. Yes,

609
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: and so that thumb print or fingerprint that was up

610
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: now it is uploaded. Okay, it was turned in by

611
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: when he applied for the license, and it was now uploaded.

612
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 2: All it took was that cold case getting kicked back

613
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: into the system and having the numbers run and lo

614
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: and behold, they got a hit. They get a hit

615
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: on this Joe. And I'm thinking the guy got away

616
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: with murder. And if he doesn't apply for that life

617
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: since in nineteen two thousand, you know he's getting away

618
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: with it for his whole life.

619
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: Forever and ever. Amen. And here's the thing I'm not saying.

620
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: No one misconstrue what I'm saying here. Cold case squads

621
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: were a thing back in the early two thousands. Okay,

622
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: they were a thing. However, as you well know, we

623
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: even can think about. Our dear friend Cheryl McCollum, who

624
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: runs Cold Case Institute, has Zone seven podcasts. I urge

625
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: everybody to listen to it. Those little details that you

626
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: collect out there at the scene. You never know what

627
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: will happen in order to link you back. And so

628
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: as we have moved through time, I mean, let's think

629
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: about it. We personally know somebody that actually has an

630
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: institute for cold case and she solved cases. Now you've

631
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: got cops that are on the inside, and they have

632
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: whole cold case squads that are working, you know, at

633
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: local level, state police level, where they're going back and

634
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: they're re examining evidence. And it just so happens that

635
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: some detective out there, he's probably he goes to the pile,

636
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: he looks over there, and HE'SAI and it's generally a pile.

637
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: You have these files that are kind of quadroned to

638
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: offer it and everything else. These are cold cases that'll

639
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: be held in some particular spot. I think I'll choose

640
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 1: this one and take a look at it, and lo

641
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: and behold, there's a latent print that's contained in there.

642
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: And he's like, hmm, well, this is back from seventy eight.

643
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: Let me see if I can plug this puppy in

644
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: and get this thing resolved. And oh my gosh, Dave

645
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: he struck gold? What are the odds what are the

646
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: odds that this guy would walk in, grab that card

647
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: and plug it in and he gets a hit on

648
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: this thing now load these many years.

649
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: Long, I was thinking to myself on this shoe that

650
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: there's no real DNA And when we think of these nowadays,

651
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: we think of DNA, you know, of them running on

652
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: a cold case, you know, and we have the genetic geniality,

653
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: and we're solving a lot of those cases day and it

654
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 2: doubt this is old school stuff here. This is an

655
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: old school fingerprint that they held onto and as they

656
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 2: were trying to they're just the part about this that

657
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 2: does it hurts my heart for families who feel like

658
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: they've been left out because their case was never solved

659
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: and they think that they were just forgotten. They're not forgotten.

660
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 2: It's just a matter of time and ability. And these

661
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: cold cases that are getting solved now it doesn't change

662
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: anything except give you an answer for who did it,

663
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: and sometimes that's enough for you to be able to

664
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: sleep at night. But in this particular case, show I

665
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: had to go back and remember the person that they

666
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: are rested in this case was only twenty five at

667
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: the time. He was twenty five years old at the

668
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: time he committed allegedly committed this double homicide. And now

669
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 2: he's an old man. Yeah, he's lived his entire life. Joke,

670
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: he's seventy one years old now. Timothy Joel, Yeah, Timothy

671
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 2: Jolie cooling his heels done in Clearwater, Florida, which arguably

672
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: is one of the most lovely places in Florida that

673
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: you could live. Thinking that the dust had cleared. Probably

674
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: he's gone on with his life. He doesn't think that

675
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 2: anybody is going to come after him. And I got

676
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: to tell you, Dave, tip of the cap to the

677
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: authorities in Hampden, Massachusetts and the DA for pursuing this case.

678
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 2: Because they wind up charging this guy with double homicide.

679
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: He's looking at fifty years in prison now he's being charged.

680
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: He has not been convicted at this time. But Dave,

681
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: this is we're coming to you my friends hot off.

682
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: The press is here. This is something that they have

683
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: just hooked this guy up on very very recently, and

684
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: they're going to pursue charges in this and they're going

685
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: to pursue a trial. And this is for those of

686
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: you guys that don't know where this is located. It's

687
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: immediately adjacent to Springfield, Massachusetts, and you know, hacking wax.

688
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: Very. I don't know. I don't know if poetic is

689
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: the term. It's sad because their lives were ended there

690
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: in that old beat up truck adjacent to this dirty,

691
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: filthy roadside stop. Their bodies drug out of that truck

692
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: after they had both been shot down, treated like less

693
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: than human, and there they were left in that cold,

694
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: cold air that night. There was no one to know

695
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: what had ever happened, Dave. Some of their closest relatives

696
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: have probably passed on many years ago. Those people that

697
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: they spent Thanksgiving with and Christmas, those people that we're

698
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: at that party that night. I bet a lot of

699
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: those people have just vanished, have gone away. And you

700
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: really wonder you sit there and you think is there

701
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: any memory? Well, now there is. And the person that

702
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: allegedly perpetrated this crime is going to be held to account.

703
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: He is going to be taken and he is going

704
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: to be charged. He is going to be prosecuted and

705
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: potentially convicted Timothy Joe Lee. If he is convicted, my estimation,

706
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: after forty six years, he's going to die in prison.

707
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,760
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bound