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Speaker 1: All asylums at the time. You know, they've made patients

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Speaker 1: do chores and laundry and work at the gift shop

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But often that was sort of

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Speaker 1: part of a jobs program so that they could leave

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Speaker 1: and then go have you know, a reference and a resume.

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Speaker 1: That's not what was happening at Crownsvillet. This was really

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Speaker 1: a recreation of the plantation structure, and doctors weren't even

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Speaker 1: really trying to hide it.

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Speaker 2: Antonia Hilton is our guest on Naked, and she is

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Speaker 2: talking about a real life mental asylum that was for

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Speaker 2: black folks only and what happened behind those closed stores.

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Speaker 2: Sit back, relaxed to education Today on Naked, it's.

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Speaker 3: The greatest discourse and entertainment can Naked put Cary and

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Speaker 3: Carry Cheby is going to be a Chepiana Champion, the

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Speaker 3: carry Sheepy and They Champion. They carried Chapion Andy Carritch.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome back another edition of Naked. I have

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Speaker 2: to thank you guys. We're going strong here on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Slow and steady is how you win the race. I

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Speaker 2: wish that I could press a super subscribe button and

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Speaker 2: all of you tell your your friends to listen. But

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Speaker 2: if you have a moment, this is a this is

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Speaker 2: an episode that you need to forward. It's it's an

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Speaker 2: episode for me that feels ripe, mature, destined to have.

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Speaker 2: Within the last few weeks, I have been really making

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Speaker 2: an effort to include our history in a very powerful way.

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Speaker 4: And by our history, I mean African American history.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you saw this, but I was

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Speaker 2: on CNN and I was sitting next to the editor

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Speaker 2: in chief god by the name of rich Lowry, and

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Speaker 2: he is the editor in chief of I think it's

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Speaker 2: the Nationalist Review.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't matter because he's not smart.

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Speaker 2: But what Matt is that we were talking about Nicki

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Speaker 2: Haley's comments, the comments about in which she has said

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Speaker 2: one she didn't really know what the Civil Rights War

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Speaker 2: was about, which is clearly about slavery, and then the second.

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Speaker 2: The second are the most recent comments she made about

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Speaker 2: this is not a racist country. And I was asked,

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Speaker 2: is this a racist country? And I said, it absolutely

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Speaker 2: is a racist country. Nikki Haley sought process. And Niki Haley,

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Speaker 2: for those who may not know, this is a woman

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Speaker 2: who is running for the up nomination to be president

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Speaker 2: of the United States. So her and Trump are going

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Speaker 2: at it. Some people like her. They say she's less

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Speaker 2: dangerous than Trump, and I agree with that, But her

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Speaker 2: recent comments on this country make me feel like she's

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Speaker 2: trying to please her party, a party of Republicans that

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Speaker 2: do not want to talk about slavery, that will not

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that this country is racist and it was built

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Speaker 2: on racism. And what has been happening in rapid pace,

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Speaker 2: if you guys have been paying attention, they've been trying

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Speaker 2: to erase all the dirty parts of American history which

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Speaker 2: happened to be related to African American history, which happened

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Speaker 2: to be related to black folks.

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Speaker 4: First she couldn't say that the Civil War was about slavery.

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Speaker 2: Then she said, this country isn't racist, and I want

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Speaker 2: to see Anna and definitely said no, this country is

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Speaker 2: fundamentally racist. Today's guest wrote a book called about an

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Speaker 2: institution in Maryland, about a It was a institution only

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Speaker 2: early in the early Jim Crow era. It was an institution,

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Speaker 2: a mental asylum, if you will, only for black folks.

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Speaker 2: It was called Crownsville and it was in Maryland. And

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Speaker 2: her book is called Madness, Race and Insanity in the

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Speaker 2: Jim Crow Asylum era, and so I really truly felt

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Speaker 2: like this book to me was a microcosm an example

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Speaker 2: of what this country is. It talks about how the

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Speaker 2: reason why this this mental institution was built was because

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Speaker 2: people who owned slaves, people who still wanted to extend

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Speaker 2: slavery by enacting.

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Speaker 4: Jim Crow laws.

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Speaker 2: Basically said, the people who were emancipated, the free blacks

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Speaker 2: that were no longer slaves, couldn't handle their freedom and

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Speaker 2: they were turning crazy, so they should all be put

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Speaker 2: into a facility. But you mean, I'm crazy because I'm

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Speaker 2: no longer a slave? What? And so I don't know

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Speaker 2: how to act with this newfound freedom. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: what they'll tell you, right, That's what the history books

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Speaker 2: will tell you as well. But the truth is, no

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Speaker 2: one ever thought that slavery had an impact on the mental, Like,

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Speaker 2: how is that even possible? Jim Crow laws were state

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Speaker 2: and local laws introduced in the Southern United States in

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Speaker 2: the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that enforced racial segregation,

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Speaker 2: Jim Crow being a pejorative term for an African American.

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Speaker 2: Such laws remained enforced until nineteen sixty five nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 2: right in the right time of our civil rights era.

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Speaker 2: My point being is that if we go back to

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Speaker 2: this country's history, there's always been some sort of law

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Speaker 2: in place that separated us from them, blacks from those,

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Speaker 2: some sort of law that said blacks were not as human,

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Speaker 2: did not have full humanity. In fact, the Constitution has

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Speaker 2: a three fifth clause. Right. I said this on CNN

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Speaker 2: when I was battling with this guy who said all

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Speaker 2: men are created equal. Yeah, that's what our founding fathers

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Speaker 2: wanted us to believe. But all men are not created equal.

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Speaker 2: It's impossible. It's impossible when in the Constitution it says

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Speaker 2: if you are not free, you're three fifths of a

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Speaker 2: human being. Tell me how do you get to three

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Speaker 2: fifths the three fifths clause? How is that even possible?

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Speaker 2: And ever since the inception of this country, black folks

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Speaker 2: have been fighting to show their humanity, which is why

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Speaker 2: I believe, fast forward to present day, we are murdered

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Speaker 2: at a disproportionate rate. That's why we have institutionals. We

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Speaker 2: have institutions that put us in different pockets of the world.

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Speaker 2: We have redlining where we can't live in certain neighborhoods.

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Speaker 2: We have a financial crisis because we have to fight

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Speaker 2: in so many different spaces to prove that we are worthy.

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Speaker 2: And it's been that way since the beginning of time.

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Speaker 2: And I hate arguing with people with facts. The long

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Speaker 2: and the short of this is because I'm on my

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Speaker 2: soapbox right now. The long and the short of this is,

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Speaker 2: you have to be so aware of your history so

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Speaker 2: that you cannot allow someone else to write it for you.

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Speaker 2: And in real time, with this current election, with this

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Speaker 2: election ye're in place, they are trying to rewrite our history.

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Speaker 2: They are trying to racially gaslight black folks and this

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Speaker 2: country by saying slavery wasn't that bad, slavery was actually good,

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Speaker 2: slavery got better. When did slavery get better? How does

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Speaker 2: slavery get better? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 4: Like, listen to that? And she writes this book.

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Speaker 2: Our guest, Antonia Hilton writes this book, and it is

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Speaker 2: a perfect example of why we find ourselves as a

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Speaker 2: culture behind the finish line. It's why we find ourselves

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Speaker 2: trying to catch up because we've always been in positions

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Speaker 2: of less than, or been told that we are less than,

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Speaker 2: or have been put in places where we are not

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Speaker 2: capable of succeeding because people don't see our full humanity.

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Speaker 2: Crownsville is the black only mental asylum. It was ran

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Speaker 2: by only white folks, so you could imagine how they

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Speaker 2: treated the black people inside of that asylum. It stayed

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Speaker 2: open until two thousand and four. And it is a honest, real, terrifying, educational,

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Speaker 2: sad but also so hopeful, hopeful at the same time,

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Speaker 2: book on what was happening two Black people who were forgotten,

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Speaker 2: who were considered less than and there's still that today.

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Speaker 2: So many of us us I've forgotten, considered less than.

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Speaker 2: Antonia Hilton is a award winning journalist. She is smart,

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Speaker 2: she has clearly done her research and well educated, and

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Speaker 2: she's on a book tour and I really really want

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Speaker 2: to encourage you guys, go out and support it is

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Speaker 2: something that I believe you will love because it's teaching

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Speaker 2: you about a history that we have that we don't

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Speaker 2: many of us don't know about.

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Speaker 4: Again.

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Speaker 2: Correspondent, author producer Antonia Hilton on Naked.

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Speaker 4: Today and Care Shepy and the Care with Chepy A Toonia.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here on Naked And

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Speaker 2: I know you're on a book tour. I knew you

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Speaker 2: were traveling, and I think you ended the book tour

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Speaker 2: next week. Congratulations. I hope it's going the way you

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Speaker 2: want it to go, in whatever way that may be.

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Speaker 2: But I wanted to begin with one. I'm so impressed.

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Speaker 2: I downloaded the book today on audible, but I am

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Speaker 2: just really impressed with all that I've been able to read.

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Speaker 2: I saw a lot of your interviews, and I think

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Speaker 2: this is going to be a great podcast. Well, thank

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Speaker 2: you for being here, thanks for having me, of course,

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Speaker 2: of course. Okay, So I will begin with some of

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Speaker 2: the most basic questions in terms of you know, and

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Speaker 2: this is not even so much your resume, but you

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Speaker 2: are a award winning journalist. What made you decide that

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Speaker 2: this was the world in which you wanted to live

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Speaker 2: in terms of journalism?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's hard for me to pinpoint in exact moment.

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Speaker 1: I think it's more of an environment. I'm one of

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Speaker 1: seven kids. Both of my parents are lawyers, and my

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Speaker 1: mom in particular, did a lot of pro bono work

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up. So she supported immigrants who

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Speaker 1: needed legal representations. She supported women who were incarcerated, often

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Speaker 1: sort of as accessories to crimes that their husbands had committed.

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Speaker 1: And my mom did a lot of this work in

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Speaker 1: her free time, completely for free, And I always grew

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Speaker 1: up just admiring that that somehow my mom was raising

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Speaker 1: seven kids, working a full time job and doing all

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Speaker 1: of that. And so I think both of my parents

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Speaker 1: just really instilled in us this idea that you know,

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Speaker 1: you are your sibling or your neighbor's keeper, that you are.

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Speaker 1: Part of being a good person is making time in

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Speaker 1: your life or living a life that reflects your values

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Speaker 1: or your dream about what community really means. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I could have articulated that too when

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Speaker 1: I was young. It's just more of that kind of

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Speaker 1: feeling and that culture, like sitting around the dinner table

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Speaker 1: and my parents debating politics or explaining to us why

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Speaker 1: something going on in the world was wrong, that they

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Speaker 1: just cared. That we grew up with a certain sense

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Speaker 1: of justice and fairness and the importance of hearing other

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Speaker 1: people's perspectives and stories. And so by the time I

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Speaker 1: became a journalist, people in my family were like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Nobody is surprised, Yeah, considering how you grew up. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, you said you're one of seven. Where are

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Speaker 2: you in the seven? Lay?

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Speaker 1: I'm number three and I'm solid a middle child, and

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Speaker 1: I have all the symptoms of middle child syndrome.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I don't know what that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what that is because I grew up

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Speaker 2: as a I have brothers and sisters, but I grew

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Speaker 2: up as an only child with my mom.

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Speaker 4: So what is what are the symptoms, if you will,

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Speaker 4: of a middle child?

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Speaker 1: So middle children are stereotypically, you know, they're loud, they

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Speaker 1: talk a lot, they want to share their opinion about

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Speaker 1: things because they're in the middle, and they feel like

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Speaker 1: they're fighting to be heard. You know, they're not the

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Speaker 1: oldest and the wisest, and they're not the baby who's

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Speaker 1: getting all the attention, so they really have to go

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Speaker 1: an extra mile to make sure people pay attention to them.

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Speaker 3: And that was me.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I was in musical theater, I was

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Speaker 1: in dance, I was in like, at one point, I

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Speaker 1: was in like seven choirs, and I was in all

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Speaker 1: this stuff. So you know, it's just I was like,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna hear me. I don't care if.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna and you're gonna see me, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: do all the things, and you better know I'm doing

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Speaker 2: all the things.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that might have a little more only

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Speaker 2: child to it. I'm not for sure yet, but okay,

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Speaker 2: so okay, I I would like if you could. You

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Speaker 2: have written a book, and I think that when you

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Speaker 2: can read a book that has a storyline that educates

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Speaker 2: you is and hold your attention, I think is very

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Speaker 2: difficult to do in these days when we have so

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Speaker 2: much information literally at our fingertips and the attention span

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Speaker 2: of a p You wrote a book Madness, Race and

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Speaker 2: Insanity and a Jim Crow Asylum. The story, according to

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Speaker 2: research and what I've been able to ascertain and you

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Speaker 2: have shared. You found out about this particular and for

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Speaker 2: lack of a better term, this mental facility probably when

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Speaker 2: you were a freshman in college and you always always

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Speaker 2: was you were fascinated by it. Tell me about this

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Speaker 2: this field trip if you would, that led you to this,

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Speaker 2: to this facility, uh that was kept for black patients

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Speaker 2: only back in the Gym Crow era.

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Speaker 1: I was just about eighteen nineteen years old, a freshman

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Speaker 1: on Harvard's campus, and I stumbled into a class that

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Speaker 1: was all about the history of psychiatry. I think I

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Speaker 1: was drawn to that class in part because of my

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Speaker 1: family too, because we were so close and so loud.

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Speaker 1: But the one topic that was always off limits was

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Speaker 1: anything having to deal with your mental well being. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had the kind of family structure that was kind

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Speaker 1: of like pray about it on Sunday or go to

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Speaker 1: your room and calm down, and you know, talking about

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Speaker 1: family secrets or tough memories that was really difficult for

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Speaker 1: some of my elders and even my parents, and so

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Speaker 1: I think I kind of just went looking for someone

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Speaker 1: who wanted to have that conversation with me. And I

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Speaker 1: loved the history, but I noticed very quickly that really,

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Speaker 1: for the most part, when you learn about this history,

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Speaker 1: it's mostly the perspective of white people. And so I

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Speaker 1: really had to go looking hunting for stories that represented

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Speaker 1: black people in black families when they needed mental health care.

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Speaker 1: And I knew they existed because in my own family

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Speaker 1: history and in the secrets that we kept, I knew

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Speaker 1: that we had loved ones who are sent to places

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Speaker 1: just like Crownsville. And so I found a network of

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Speaker 1: these former segregated asylums that used to be all over

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Speaker 1: the country, and Crownsville really, I guess pulled me in

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Speaker 1: because it closed in two thousand and four. So this

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Speaker 1: is a very close history, a place where there are

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Speaker 1: living people and patients who can still to this day

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Speaker 1: talk to you about the experience there. The buildings were

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Speaker 1: still standing and are still standing in Maryland, and then

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Speaker 1: there were tons of records that I could request to

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Speaker 1: access from the state, and so it seemed like this

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Speaker 1: unique opportunity because often what you see happened with places

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Speaker 1: like these old asylums is that you know, they shudder,

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Speaker 1: they're turned into a haunted house or a Halloween ride.

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Speaker 1: No one's really preserving the history and the record keeping,

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Speaker 1: and this was different. And I felt like at first

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Speaker 1: it was this personal mission, right to try to find myself,

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Speaker 1: to better understand Black Americans journeys through the mental health

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Speaker 1: care system, and maybe just feel a little bit less alone.

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Speaker 1: But then I started to realize, really as we got

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Speaker 1: closer to twenty twenty, and I was, you know, an

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Speaker 1: adult is living in the real world and no longer

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Speaker 1: a student. I realized, I think that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people want to talk about mental health right now, but

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't have the tools,

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Speaker 1: they don't have the words, and they certainly don't know

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Speaker 1: their history.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned in the book, and you also just share

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Speaker 2: with us now that when your family, particularly in black families,

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Speaker 2: I think this is not something that that's something that

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Speaker 2: is very familiar. We don't discuss mental health. I remember

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Speaker 2: asking my mother to go with me to therapy and

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Speaker 2: she's like, why would I do that? You know, she

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Speaker 2: was like, why would I sit there and talk to

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Speaker 2: someone who doesn't know us. This is our business, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not their business.

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Speaker 4: And she went with me.

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Speaker 2: And I share the story because it was a disaster,

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Speaker 2: and she went with me, and she was, you know,

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Speaker 2: wasn't there for it. She thought it was ridiculous, it

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Speaker 2: was insulting. She didn't like this woman giving her advice.

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Speaker 2: It was invasive, and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: it was incredibly vulnerable. But I later found to your

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Speaker 2: point of going to Crownsville and to your point about

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Speaker 2: black people our culture not really embracing its mental history,

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Speaker 2: not talking about it as a family, I later found

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Speaker 2: that there was a through line in my family of

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Speaker 2: mental unwellness that people did not want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: And so you find this facility. You dig into its

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Speaker 2: history and you find out that black people not only

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Speaker 2: were sent there, there were black people who actually built

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Speaker 2: the facility and then later were put inside of the

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Speaker 2: same facility.

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Speaker 4: Explain that to me, this is so fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an unbelievable I tell people that. To me,

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Speaker 1: it's almost like a big coal tail, right, it almost

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Speaker 1: sounds like a myth, because it's so strange. It's so strange,

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Speaker 1: and yet it's so American. So the hospital is built

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven in the heart of the woods in Maryland,

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Speaker 1: and unlike every other mental institution that the state of

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Speaker 1: Maryland has already constructed for white people, they decide that

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Speaker 1: they are going to force their future patients to build

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Speaker 1: it for themselves from the ground up. And so when

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Speaker 1: the first patients arrive, there's no hospital at all, there's

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Speaker 1: no ward, there's no place for them to rest, to eat.

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Speaker 1: They have to build all those things. They're in a

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Speaker 1: cold forest, and they have to clear the forest. They

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Speaker 1: have to construct roads, they have to move a railway,

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Speaker 1: they have to pour cement and build a foundation and

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Speaker 1: erect these massive, big brick buildings that still stand more

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Speaker 1: than a century later. I mean that tells you just

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Speaker 1: how fine the craftsmanship was, right, like, of course it

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Speaker 1: immediately it raises these questions too for me, of like, well,

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Speaker 1: how sick or unwell? Could somebody really be in that moment?

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Speaker 1: Right to be so unwell that they're no longer welcome

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Speaker 1: in society, that they've been deemed by officials and by

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Speaker 1: authorities as needing to be institutionalized, but they are so

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Speaker 1: healthy that they can build a place like this.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you all for listening. We have Antonia Hilton

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Speaker 2: on the podcast, but first we got to pay some bills.

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Speaker 2: You can fast forward if you don't listen to commercials.

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Speaker 4: I know how that gets.

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Speaker 3: Every champion and Cary Champion is to be a champion

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Speaker 3: a champion, and Cary Chappion, and Carrie Chap beata Champion

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Speaker 3: and carry Chappion and carried Chap afraid entertainment can naked

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Speaker 3: weird Erry Champion and Carrie Champion is to be a

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Speaker 3: champion of Champion and carried champion thet a champion and

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Speaker 3: carry Champion and carried chatiment.

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Speaker 4: Nick you were.

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Speaker 2: We're back now with more Antonia Hilton, which goes to

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Speaker 2: this thing that we use. I'm sorry, but the saying

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Speaker 2: we say often we built place for free. I would

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Speaker 2: I literally say this about this country because it's so

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Speaker 2: frustrating for people who attempt to erase America's complicated and

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Speaker 2: very unfortunate history with slavery and what we were actually

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Speaker 2: as this culture brought here to do, to work, to

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Speaker 2: build for free, free labor. So here you have this facility.

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Speaker 2: They say that they're unwell, but they're making them build

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Speaker 2: the I can't. It's just so frustrating but completely true

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Speaker 2: of America. Go on, I'm sorry, right, and it's and

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Speaker 2: and so you're you're not surprised, but you are shocked,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, you know. And the thing is that it's

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Speaker 2: not a sort of casual occurrence. This isn't just a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Doctors had been for years in the years after slavery

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Speaker 1: talking about black people's bodies and minds and debating their

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Speaker 1: different theories about what was going on with us, and

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Speaker 1: instead of imagining that, oh, perhaps enslavement caused them a

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Speaker 1: lot of mental suffering, they actually start to think, you know,

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Speaker 1: emancipation was a mistake, and that's part of the belief

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Speaker 1: system that informs their decision to build a segregated institution

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Speaker 1: in the first place, but then to also kind of

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Speaker 1: turn the hospital itself into this antebellum you know, good

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Speaker 1: old days style plantation. So even after they build the buildings,

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Speaker 1: the patients then go on to run a massive, highly

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Speaker 1: productive farm that grows year after year after year. They

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Speaker 1: run the kitchen, they run, the laundry, they run the

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Speaker 1: more you mean, they're running and offsetting the cost of

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Speaker 1: their own care in a way. I mean all asylums

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Speaker 1: at the time, you know, they've made patients do chores

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Speaker 1: and laundry and work at the gift shop or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. But often that was sort of part of

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Speaker 1: a jobs program so that they could leave and then

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Speaker 1: go have a you know, a reference and a resume.

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Speaker 1: That's not what was happening at Crowns Built.

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Speaker 4: This was really a.

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Speaker 1: Recreation of the plantation structure, and doctors weren't even really

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Speaker 1: trying to hide it. And that goes on for decades,

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Speaker 1: I mean, well into the sixties. They're using the patients

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Speaker 1: in this way. They're renting them out to private businesses,

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Speaker 1: all for no or very little pay, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the way that we think of prison labor now, and

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Speaker 1: you know, for me, and I'm curious if you'll feel

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Speaker 1: this way for me finding this information out. As much

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Speaker 1: as it made me angry, it actually also gave me

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Speaker 1: a lot of compassion for people in my family who

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Speaker 1: are afraid of therapy, is afraid of psychiatry, maybe are

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Speaker 1: a little bit hesitant about doctor's appointments because you realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: my grandparents, for example, my mom was born in Baltimore.

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Speaker 1: My grandparents lived in Baltimore, like they would have heard

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Speaker 1: these rulers in these stories, right, and so yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: it would be so surprised.

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Speaker 2: Yes, no, my mind as you're saying this is I'm

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Speaker 2: blown away only because we are so we forget to

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Speaker 2: take the extra layer, and we don't know much about

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Speaker 2: our history, and we have to ask these questions because

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Speaker 2: you know, our family doesn't like to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: So if you if, if if our culture, if black folks,

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Speaker 2: especially during the slave period and the Jim Crow era

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Speaker 2: even up into the sixties, as you mentioned, how they

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Speaker 2: were using these these these these patients as if they

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Speaker 2: were prison laborers, if there is a difficult misunderstanding abusive

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Speaker 2: relationship with therapy mental health, of course we're not going

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Speaker 2: to want to be willing to talk about it or

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Speaker 2: be a part of a system that you know is

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Speaker 2: really a slave system, if you will, just we're allowed

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Speaker 2: to walk around.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if in your book you knew that you

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Speaker 2: were uncovering the relationship, uh, that black folks have with

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Speaker 2: with mental with mental health, meaning the reason why they

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Speaker 2: don't trust it, the reason why my mom's like, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to go and see a therapist, the reason

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Speaker 2: my grandmother and you.

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Speaker 1: Know what I mean, I know, yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think in the beginning, especially because I was so young, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm just fascinated by this place, and I'm actually overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: by it in a way. But it was it was

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Speaker 1: within a year or two of doing the research and

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Speaker 1: really sitting with it, sitting with the photographs that I

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Speaker 1: uncovered the hospital wrecords, letters written by the racist administrators

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Speaker 1: who wrote the place, and state leaders who refused to

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Speaker 1: let black people work there and were actively fighting to

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Speaker 1: maintain segregation. I mean, when you look at this stuff

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Speaker 1: over time, you start to see, you know, just the

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Speaker 1: world that your own loved ones, your own family lived in,

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Speaker 1: not even all that long ago. Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: it was that realization too that then informed my decision

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Speaker 1: to like write a couple of personal essays.

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Speaker 4: In the book.

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Speaker 1: So in a few sections of the book, at the

436
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: beginning and the introduction, and then a couple times along

437
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: the way, I bring in a couple of personal family anecdotes.

438
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: And I do that because you know, on the one hand,

439
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: as a journalist, we always disclose any personal connection, and

440
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: so I felt like the readers should know I come

441
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: from a family with a history of mental trauma and

442
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: in an impact from racist abuse in the country, and

443
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: so I wanted anyone who you know, bought this book

444
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: to know what journey, what kind of narrator they should

445
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: trust and listen to. But I think the other piece

446
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: of it was that I wanted to actually honor some

447
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: people in my family and contextualize their experiences or their

448
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: lack of trust, or their fear or their loss, because

449
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: in the past we had so misunderstood it or hush

450
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: hushed it or hid it. And I think so much

451
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: of change for the black community can come from seeing

452
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: this history, feeling it, and knowing that you're it's not

453
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: just your family and and something quiet, it's and shameful

454
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: that happened to your lineage. You're actually part of a

455
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: much bigger system and problem, and that can hurt, but

456
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 1: it also really does remind you you're not alone.

457
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's.

458
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: Important because then you start to feel safe and and

459
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 2: and the work that you're talking about, you know, Uh,

460
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: the the the mental health aspect of the reason why

461
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 2: black folks don't trust, you know, doctors and and don't

462
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: want to and talk about therapy, especially when it comes

463
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: to mental health. Uh, it is so connected to how

464
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: this country has found new ways to make the finish

465
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: line more difficult for us as as a as a people.

466
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: So first there is slavery, then there's Jim Crow, then

467
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 2: there's segregation, and now there's this new if you ask

468
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: me this, there's this new this new attempt to really

469
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: rewrite our history. Words like DEI have become bad words

470
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 2: and critical race theory. There's just always a new way

471
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: to make it more difficult to understand what really happened

472
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: at the beginning of this country's history, which makes it

473
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: impossible to get over because you have to know where

474
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: you were before you know where you're going. And I

475
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: think your book is such a beautiful way, in a

476
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: very honest way, and by beautiful I mean just the

477
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: rawness and the realness of it. To talk about something

478
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: that we don't like to talk about. Can you tell

479
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: the listeners more about Crownsville and who ran the facility.

480
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: You share some very painful moments about how the white

481
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: people who ran the facility treated the patients.

482
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. In those early years, from about nineteen eleven

483
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: up to the mid nineteen fifties or so, the hospital

484
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: is run primarily by or exclusively by white people, many

485
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: of whom are very openly racist, I mean open about

486
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: the fact that they see the patients that they're supposed

487
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: to be treating as less than human. There are tons

488
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: of incidents of racial violence, allegations from the black community

489
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: of all kinds of physical abuse, sexual abuse of patients.

490
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: In those years of starvation, patients are sleeping at times

491
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: head to feet two people in a bed like a

492
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: twin bed, or they're left to sleep on benches or

493
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: outside on porches, and it's overcrowded and incredibly filthy, and so,

494
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: you know, I bring you into the world in the

495
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: early part of the book and bring you into some

496
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: stories of patients and challenges at the hospital so that

497
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: you can really see just how dire and how little

498
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: there was available to Black Americans in terms of therapy

499
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: or care at that time. Then one of my favorite

500
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: parts of the book is when things get a little

501
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: bit more messy and complicated, frankly, and black men and

502
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: women start getting jobs for the first time in the

503
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties and sixties, and there's this really fascinating power

504
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: structure and power struggle going on where there's still white

505
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: employees who think they run the place. There's new black

506
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: employees who really know and love their patients and in

507
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: many cases grew up with their patients in their own neighborhoods.

508
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: And then there's the patients kind of at the bottom

509
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: of that totem pole, and you see the difficult position

510
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: that the black employees kind of in the middle of

511
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: all that are put in as they try to save

512
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: patient lives but also kind of bump up against the

513
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: reality of a system that was created by people who

514
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: don't look like them and don't care as much for them.

515
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: And so it was really it's amazing. There are all

516
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: these women and men who are in their nineties, eighties

517
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: and nineties now who still live in Maryland, who got

518
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: their first jobs as teenagers or in their twenties there

519
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: who can still tell you the stories of being there

520
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: in the fifties. And nobody just for years until I

521
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: knocked on their door and called their house a million times,

522
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, nobody thought, yeah, I'm not getting Nobody thought

523
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: to give them the spotlight, the chance to talk about

524
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: what it was like to be really these pioneers who

525
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: come into a place with such a difficult and sordid

526
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: history like that, and to try to every day do

527
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: what they could with their very small amount of power

528
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: to save patients' lives. And so, you know, the book

529
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: is it's about the horror and the ugliness of that

530
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: early period, but it follows it all way through the

531
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: century long history, so you see the hospital's transformation. And

532
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: I really try to center black patients and black employees

533
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: in it because for so long their stories haven't been

534
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: the ones that we've listened to. We haven't given them

535
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: they're real shine, they haven't gotten their flowers, and I

536
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: really want this book to change that.

537
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: You mentioned about how they started to take care of

538
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: the patients in a way that only someone who really

539
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: loved and cared about them could give us. Some examples

540
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: of that because I think that's beautiful as well.

541
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are so many examples. One that I

542
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: think about all the time is a woman who's still

543
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: alive in her nineties named Marie Goff, who gets her

544
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: very first job there in the mid nineteen fifties, and

545
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: she's assigned to work on a really overcrowded and dingy

546
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: and terrible ward, working with men, and there's a guy

547
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: on her ward who she gets to take outside one

548
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: day and he tells her that he hasn't seen the

549
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: sky or the sun in a really long time, and

550
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: so she kind of looks into his record and tries

551
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: to figure out what's his story wise he here, and

552
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: it turns out that he was picked up by her supervisor,

553
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: who was a white man, and some authorities in Baltimore

554
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: because they overheard him speaking in a British accent and

555
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: they didn't believe that there could be black people who

556
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: had British accents. And it turns out that he had

557
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: been born in London and was a jockey and happened

558
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: to come to the United States and then fall on

559
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: hard times, but he really was And it's not until

560
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: she sees him as a human and wants to have

561
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: a conversation with him and then wants to look into

562
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: his story. That very basic information about him comes to light.

563
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: The other story that always sticks with me is of

564
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: a woman named Betty Hawkins who comes to work at

565
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: the facility and a patient has been complaining and complaining

566
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: for years before she's arrived, and nobody's been listening to him.

567
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: She talks to them and finds out that they have

568
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: a phone number that they would like her to call

569
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: to tell their brother to come pick them up. That's

570
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: all that this patient has been asking for for such

571
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: a long time, so she actually does it. Low and behold,

572
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: the brother answers, the phone comes and gets him bed

573
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: and seen each other in twenty seven years.

574
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 4: Wow.

575
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: And it's just because no one had seen that patient's humanity, right,

576
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: They didn't care, They didn't listen, They walked by his

577
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: cell and didn't want to hear his.

578
00:31:59,520 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 4: Pain.

579
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: That something so simple as just making a phone call

580
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: to reconnect them with their family and with people who

581
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: care and love about them. You know that step hadn't

582
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: been taken for so long, and so you know. One

583
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: of the real messages of the story for me is

584
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: the fact that when you have real community and care.

585
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: And when you have doctors and nurses who look like

586
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: the people they serve, who know the people they serve,

587
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: who went to church with or went to school with

588
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: the people they serve, the outcomes are really different. And

589
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't even have to do with technology or new medication.

590
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: It's just caring about your community that can.

591
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: See the humanity in every single person, which is what

592
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: this country has taken away from Black people for so long.

593
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: African Americans still ask for that in so many institutions.

594
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: You've highlighted it in this book, in the medical institution,

595
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: but it's finance, it's education, it's the judicial system, it's

596
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: every single institution in this country.

597
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: If you don't have someone who.

598
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: Looks like you making decisions in places of power, you

599
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: find yourself often marginalized and overlooked. And all it took

600
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: was a phone call to get this man to see

601
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: his twenties, his brother he hadn't seen in twenty seven years.

602
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 4: Like those stories to me are so fascinating.

603
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: Harry Champion and Kerry Champion is to be a champion,

604
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: a champion and carry chappion and Carrie Chatty out a

605
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: champion and carry chappion and Carrie Chabyfraid is the sports

606
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: in the entertainment Getting nake you weirder, Harry Champion and

607
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: Carry Chappion is to be a champion, a champion, and

608
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 3: Carrie Chappi and the girl clad shout a champion and

609
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 3: Carry Chappion and Carrie Chabyyfraid is the sports and entertainment.

610
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: Gett nack you word.

611
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: I wonder you talk about this place Bownsville not closing

612
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: until two thousand and four.

613
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 4: That was just twenty years ago.

614
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: So whoever is listening to this podcast right now, you

615
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: were alive, you know, you should are at least a

616
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: thought at least by.

617
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 4: The time in which this place shut down what led

618
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: to its closing.

619
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: That is another favorite part of my book because this

620
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: is the part that, Oh, another important piece that I

621
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: want people to really take from this is so toward

622
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: the end of the twentieth century what you start to

623
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: see happen to asylums. These new medications arrive and people

624
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: want to bring patients back to the community, and they feel,

625
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: or at least they're claiming publicly that they feel more

626
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: sympathy for people suffering. So they come up with this

627
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: plan to build community mental health care centers all around

628
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: the United States and to shut down the big asylums,

629
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: and Crownsville is sort of targeted as one place that

630
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: needs to close. But at the very same time that

631
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: this deinstitutionalization and sympathy movement is happening, the civil rights

632
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: movement has exploded. Black people are protesting and getting arrested

633
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: in the streets. There's a big backlash to the Black

634
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: Power movement, and so more and more black people are

635
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 1: being funneled into jails and prisons, and they're having less

636
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: access to spaces that are hospital like or therapeutic. And

637
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: so one of the things I tracked the back of

638
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: the book is how towards he is to get closer

639
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: and closer to two thousand and four. Crownsville almost kind

640
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: of goes back in a circle to its early days

641
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: of being a little bit more like a prison than

642
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: it is like the healthcare facility, and even the employees

643
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: are noticing this and getting incredibly frustrated. I tell the

644
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: story of one black doctor who is on his shift

645
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: one day and sees a police car come down the

646
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: road and come to bring a patient to the check

647
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: in room. And the patient is a six year old

648
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: boy in a karate uniform and this is in the eighties,

649
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: and he's sort of like, huh, something's wrong here, and

650
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: so he talks to the police. They're like, he's been

651
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: acting up. He needs to be committed to the asylum.

652
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: And immediately the doctor knows something's wrong because the boy

653
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: does not appear to have any issues, does not there's

654
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: no adult or parent with him who can give any

655
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: more context, and he clearly has just come from a

656
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: karate class. And so he gets on the phone and

657
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: he has to fight a judge and talk to the

658
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: judge's staff, and finally, after hours of trying to reunite

659
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: this boy with his family, he's able to do that

660
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: and to avoid this boy, you know, having his just

661
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: six years old, being committed to a place like this.

662
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: But it starts to show you, right, that police were

663
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: interacting with the mental health care system, that they were

664
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: trying to choose and decide who gets brought to these institutions.

665
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: And it says so much right about the way that

666
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: they would view a little black boy, you know, who's

667
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: coming from karate class. And even if he had misbehaved

668
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: in that class, it's hard to imagine, right, what a

669
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: child could possibly do at karate class that could warrant

670
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: them being arrested by multiple officers in that way and

671
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: brought to really an adult mental institution. And so it's

672
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: stories that like that that really I think changed me,

673
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: that kind of propelled me while I was working on

674
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: this reporting, because right now, when you look around our country,

675
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: many communities of the United States, the primary and largest

676
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: mental health care provider is a jail or prison, and

677
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: many patients who struggle with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, they

678
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: will tell you if you talk to them that they

679
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: couldn't get to see doctors or they couldn't get care,

680
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: so they were arrested for making some kind of mistake. Sure,

681
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: and so when you see this era in which the

682
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: asylums are shutting down, the prisons are growing, and black

683
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: people are kind of being disproportionately affected by those ships,

684
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: you see that black patients are a really important part

685
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: of all these pivotal transformations toward the end of the century.

686
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: And you know, by the time Crownsville closes, it's this

687
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: really heartbreaking scene where on the one hand, you know

688
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: it has this difficult history, and so you want to

689
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: imagine something better is coming. But you also see the

690
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: writing on the wall. We didn't build the community mental

691
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: health centers. All we did was built new jail's, prisons

692
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: and juvenile justice centers. And I think you know, at

693
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: least for black folks, that we all know what came next.

694
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: Yeah. Wow, if you could.

695
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if you think of Crownsville this way,

696
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 2: but if you could talk about your book, Madness, what

697
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: is it a microcosm of what? How would you describe

698
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: what this book, which I think is a clear reflection

699
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: of what's happening in our country and has happened in

700
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: our country. How what would be the correlation for you?

701
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: I think that Crownsville is not just a Maryland story.

702
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: It's a truly American story because the institution, in all

703
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: of those years comes to represent and reflect all of

704
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: the fights this country has had over how it can

705
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: live up to its promises, the basic core tenets of

706
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: what America likes to tell itself. It is all of

707
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: those battles are reflected in what happened to the patients

708
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: and to the employees of this place, from emancipation and

709
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: the fight for freedom to battles over integration and black

710
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: people's you know, simple right to get jobs at places

711
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: like hospitals, to you know, the criminal justice system and

712
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: over policing issues in America, and that now to the

713
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: current moment, you know, post pandemic. I mean, I bring

714
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: you past two thousand and four, and I end the

715
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: book with a reflection on what happened to Jordan Neely

716
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: in New York City, the black young man murdered by

717
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: a former marine on a New York City subway whose

718
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, the trial will come relatively and where you know,

719
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: he has plied not guilty, and we'll see what a

720
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: New York City jury decides. But I reflect on that

721
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: case because for so many Black Americans it came to

722
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: represent the intersections of all these things and the culmination

723
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: of really a century of this history that I think

724
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: some people know in their families, they know in their stories,

725
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: they know even from their own experiences in these facilities

726
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: around the US. But we haven't quite named it, we

727
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: haven't quite spelled it out. And I guess the other

728
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: way I'd put it is that we think a lot

729
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: about the slavery to prison pipeline, or the slavery to

730
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: school to prison pipeline. But I would argue that the

731
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: asylum that the mental health care system is on that

732
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: timeline too, and so we need to think a lot

733
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: more about why it has all these connections and if

734
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 1: we all want a better mental health care system in

735
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: the future, I think most Americans of every background know

736
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 1: this system isn't serving any of us, not just splash folks.

737
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: Sure well, I think you need to know what went

738
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: wrong before you can build yourself something better going forward.

739
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: Your history is your address to your freedom, if you

740
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: ask me. And so I think that your book is necessary.

741
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 4: I think that.

742
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: It explains so much, at least for me, why there

743
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: is this complicated history and my personally and my family

744
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: with mental health and not being willing to talk about

745
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 2: what is wrong or perhaps seek help because of what

746
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: they have heard in the past, whether it be urban

747
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: legend or true stories that my great great grandmother witnessed

748
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: when her friends and family attempted to find help or

749
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: seek help in a mental asylum. And so it's important

750
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: that we understand that history so that we can understand

751
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: the present relationship and then find ways in which we

752
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: can figure that out and solve the problem. And I

753
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: feel like your book is just one of many examples

754
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: of us really really taking the culture, specifically taking an

755
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: ownership and not allowing our educational system to tell us

756
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: what is right and what is wrong, our medical system

757
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 2: to tell us what is right and what is wrong,

758
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 2: or it's just always been this way. If we dig

759
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: a little, we work a little, we ask more questions,

760
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 2: We become more curious about who we are and where

761
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: we come from. We have these beautiful stories that are

762
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: painful but honest and lead us to much more, for me,

763
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: at least a revelation of what we're dealing with in

764
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: terms of mental health. Antonia Hilton, His book is amazing.

765
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 2: I see why you've won so many awards as a journalist.

766
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: I wish you nothing but the best. I will say

767
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: this just on a personal note. I watched a few

768
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: of your interviews and I just thought to myself, well,

769
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: this is our calling. I hope she understands what it is,

770
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: and we need more of this. Men have to tell

771
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: our stories because sometimes we don't have the time, the resources,

772
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: the ability or capability to do so. And so I

773
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: appreciate you doing that because we are often unseen and

774
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: over police shout out to Nis Nash and you see

775
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: us and you recognize the unfairness that exists. So thank

776
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: you so much for all that you do. Good luck

777
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: with your book tour. I think it ends next week

778
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, maybe wind is it in.

779
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: Yes, I'll be back here ark at NYU, and then

780
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: I'll be at some festivals throughout the year. But the

781
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: craziness calms down in early February. So thank you so much.

782
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: This is so lovely. Like I just I've really enjoyed

783
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: this conversation, and this is a story that's been like

784
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: a burning fire in my heart for the last ten

785
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: eleven years of my life. So to be able to

786
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: share it, especially with other black men and women who

787
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: like are thinking about and living these experiences every day,

788
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: it just means everything to me right now. And I've

789
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: loved this conversation. So thank you for having me.

790
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. Thank you for madness. You guys,

791
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: go out and get it. Madness race and in sanity

792
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: and a Jim Crow Asylum. You you know, the youth

793
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: is upon you, and so is greatness. So I expect

794
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: so much more. I thank you for everything. I really

795
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: truly do.

796
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 4: I have a wonderful, wonderful book tour. Thank you Antonia.

797
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

798
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 2: I call it a rasure. It's an effort to remove something.

799
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: If you write something on a piece of paper, and

800
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: it's not back in the day when you used to write.

801
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: No one writes anymore, but when you would write something,

802
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: you'd get an eraser, right, you use a pencil and

803
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: you erase it so you can do over. You can

804
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: write the word over, you can start again. And I

805
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: believe in real time, so many people, especially in politics,

806
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 2: are trying to rewrite history, American history, African American history.

807
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 2: They're trying to start over. They're reversing history as we speak.

808
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: I can give you incidents as of late, no more

809
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: affirmedive action, Roe v Wade, reverse, start, over, erase. All

810
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: of these things are happening in a very, very very

811
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: political year. And I encourage you not to be distracted,

812
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: to pay attention to what is going on. Do not

813
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: let someone tell you that slavery was not that bad.

814
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: Slavery did not exist. Things got better after Martin Luther

815
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 2: King Junior. Things got better after the Civil War. Don't

816
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: let someone talk about this country's very complicated and disgusting

817
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: history with African Americans.

818
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 4: As if it is a Disney movie.

819
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: It is not. It's unfortunate, it's sad, but it happened,

820
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 2: and it's not that we have to live on it

821
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: because people all you don't have to keep talking about

822
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 2: a carrier.

823
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 4: We know what happened.

824
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you know what happened, but you can't

825
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: let someone tell you we didn't. We have to document

826
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 2: these things in real time and spread the word. The

827
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: same way you hear Nikki's distract to Meg and Meg's

828
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 2: distract to Nikki, and you're sending it to your friends

829
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: during the day, I encourage you to find a piece

830
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: of history, African American history somewhere on social media, make

831
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: it a quick read, a quick listen, and pass it

832
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: to your friends. This racial gaslighting has to stop. We

833
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: have to be able to understand where we come from

834
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: so we know where we're going. I've said this on

835
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 2: the show before. What is your address? Not just the success,

836
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 2: but where.

837
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 4: Do you want to go?

838
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: And who are you taking with you? And I truly

839
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: believe you can't do any of that unless you know

840
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 2: where you come from, unless you see your full humanity,

841
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: If you understand your light and your shadows, it makes

842
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: you so powerful. No one can take that from you.

843
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: And when I sat on that desk CNN and that

844
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: white man tried to tell me that we were all

845
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 2: created equal, and he tried to cut me off every

846
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: five seconds to distract my train of thought so I

847
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: could not speak truth to power. I stayed even and

848
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 2: I stayed focused because I knew my history and I

849
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: knew where I was going, and I saw my full humanity.

850
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 4: I didn't see his. And he sat there and proved me.

851
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: By trying to ignore, marginalize, not hear, not see our stories,

852
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 2: erase our stories. Our guests today, whether she realized it

853
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: or not, has documented our story and this country's history

854
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: with mental health, African American mental health, our health and

855
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: what it looked like and what it could look like

856
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: and where it needs to be fixed. And I appreciate

857
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: her for doing that. Go out and get that book.

858
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 2: It's called Madness by Antonia Hilton. Thank you all for

859
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 2: listening to Naked