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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability. It's a real guest. If we don't know

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Speaker 1: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's

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Speaker 1: probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 2: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 2: really live.

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Speaker 1: There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do because there was

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Speaker 1: no internet. I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel

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Speaker 1: like everything is hard.

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Speaker 3: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 3: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 3: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 3: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 3: world around you.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to You Need Therapy.

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Speaker 2: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You

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Speaker 2: Need Therapy podcast. My name is Kat, I am the host,

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Speaker 2: and quick reminder before we get into today's content that

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Speaker 2: although this podcast is hosted by a therapist and it's

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Speaker 2: called You Need Therapy, it does not serve as a

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Speaker 2: replacement or a substitute for actual mental health services. However,

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Speaker 2: we always hope that it can help you however, it

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Speaker 2: needs to help you on whatever journey you're on, whenever

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Speaker 2: you're on the journey. So it has been a minute

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Speaker 2: since we've really focused on a topic that's very relevant

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Speaker 2: in therapy and in the work that people tend to

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Speaker 2: do in therapy, and that is the topic of shame

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Speaker 2: and how shame just kind of can easily show up

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Speaker 2: in our lives and really hijack us without us even

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Speaker 2: knowing it. And one reason where I actually think that

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Speaker 2: one I should be taughtalking about shame more often than

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Speaker 2: I am on here, because one of the things that

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Speaker 2: makes shame so difficult is that it sends us the

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Speaker 2: message that we shouldn't talk about it. Yet not talking

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Speaker 2: about shame is what actually gives it more power. And

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Speaker 2: so the more we ignore it, the more it's a thing,

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Speaker 2: and the more it becomes a thing. And so maybe

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Speaker 2: part of my New Year's resolutions, my goals, or even

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Speaker 2: though I did a whole episode of having und goals,

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Speaker 2: might be to talk about shame more on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: and we are definitely going to do that today. And

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Speaker 2: I want to freshen up some of your memories on shame,

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Speaker 2: because we haven't done an actual shame based episode in

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Speaker 2: a year or two probably could have been more than that.

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Speaker 2: And so I just want to freshen up on what

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Speaker 2: shame is, what it sounds like, what it feels like,

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Speaker 2: and then talk about how it can create some achiness

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Speaker 2: inside of us and how and what it has to

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Speaker 2: do with secret keeping and secrets and all of that.

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Speaker 2: And so start off by just you know, frushening up

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Speaker 2: our memories on what shame is. And a very simple

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Speaker 2: way of defining shame comes from Brene Brown, and she

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Speaker 2: says that it is the feeling that we are unworthy

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Speaker 2: of love and belonging. So that's saying a lot with

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Speaker 2: not a lot of words, and so we're going to

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Speaker 2: unpack that, but by baseline, just like a very simple

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Speaker 2: if you want just a simple something to hold on

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Speaker 2: to when you're thinking about what shame is.

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Speaker 4: The feeling that we are unworthy of love and belonging.

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Speaker 2: So shame is a feeling and it gets a bad

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Speaker 2: reputation because when we think of shame, when we hear shame,

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Speaker 2: we're just like, ooh, don't have that.

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Speaker 4: I don't want that.

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Speaker 2: Like again, don't talk about it. It feels very negative. However,

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Speaker 2: it can be helpful when we feel it and express

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Speaker 2: it and allow ourselves to feel it because it can

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Speaker 2: connect us to others. It can be very damaging and

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Speaker 2: toxic when we hide our experiences, which is similar to

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Speaker 2: a lot of emotions. I think it's really highlighted when

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Speaker 2: it comes to shame, so you might be thinking it

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Speaker 2: connects you to other people, Like what shame is something

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Speaker 2: that usually separates me or makes me want to hide

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Speaker 2: from other people right when.

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Speaker 4: We are avoiding it.

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Speaker 2: But shame connects us to our humility, which is another

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Speaker 2: way to say to our humanness.

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Speaker 4: It shows us and tells us that.

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Speaker 2: We are not perfect people and we actually need help,

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Speaker 2: and that help might involve other people or a higher

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Speaker 2: power or something like that. This is not a bad thing,

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Speaker 2: like that idea is not a bad thing. That we're

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Speaker 2: imperfect and that we need help. This actually is what

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Speaker 2: allows us to connect with other people like it just said,

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Speaker 2: connect to a higher power, connect to the truth of

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Speaker 2: who we are. When we allow ourselves to acknowledge that

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Speaker 2: we are limited, it tells us you cannot do this

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Speaker 2: on your own, and it allows us to not be

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Speaker 2: alone when we lean into that reality and an open

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Speaker 2: up to other people.

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Speaker 1: With that.

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Speaker 2: Now, shame does not feel very good, right, It's not gladness,

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Speaker 2: it's not joy, it's very uncomfortable, it's icky, it's prickly,

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Speaker 2: and again that's one of the reasons we want to

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Speaker 2: like stay away from it. We are a society of humans,

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Speaker 2: of people that want to pretend that we are not humans,

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Speaker 2: because to be human it's to be imperfect. Yet we

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Speaker 2: think about how our world is set up, especially going

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Speaker 2: off of what we kind of talked about last week

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Speaker 2: on couch Talks, we are very heavily I mean now

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Speaker 2: it's social media, but before it was just the media.

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Speaker 2: But we are very heavily influenced by social media, and

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Speaker 2: our world runs heavily on a lot of the stuff

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Speaker 2: that we see on there. And if you think about

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Speaker 2: social media and how that works, it's very fake a

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Speaker 2: lot of times. And there's no shortage of ways to edit, fine, tune, shift, smooth, like,

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Speaker 2: just change what you look like, what you sound like,

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Speaker 2: how things happened. There's a lot of ability to just

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Speaker 2: fake reality on social media in a way that makes

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Speaker 2: us look like we are looking at reality. And so

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Speaker 2: we are just constantly surrounded by the avoidance of our

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Speaker 2: humanness and if I don't see other people being human,

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Speaker 2: then I'm going to look at my human parts and

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Speaker 2: be like, ooh, this might be wrong or bad or

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't show people this. So backing up a little

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Speaker 2: bit to how like shame doesn't feel good like a

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Speaker 2: lot of other emotions, and when something doesn't feel good,

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Speaker 2: we tend to want to ignore it, we want to

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Speaker 2: turn from it. And that's actually where shame takes a turn.

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Speaker 2: It moves from something that can actually remind us that

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Speaker 2: we're human and we can connect to other people and

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Speaker 2: allow us to be compassionate and to have empathy, to

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Speaker 2: a place where it's going to disconnect from us from

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Speaker 2: other people, and it's going to show us that we

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Speaker 2: are not worthy, like Brene says, a belonging of connect

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Speaker 2: it becomes something that I have to keep to myself.

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Speaker 2: And this feeling becomes very toxic when the knowledge me

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Speaker 2: knowing and understanding my imperfection tells me that being imperfect

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Speaker 2: means I am going to lose the ability to be loved,

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Speaker 2: to be connected to others, to belong, and to have

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Speaker 2: worth as the human that I am. In very simple terms,

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Speaker 2: you end up projecting yourself. There's self rejection, and we

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Speaker 2: end up telling ourselves to hide, hide what's authentic, hide

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Speaker 2: what is real, and we show up with more manufactured

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Speaker 2: versions of ourselves and our stories, and even if we

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Speaker 2: are loved for those versions, we're never going to feel

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Speaker 2: true belonging this and connection because again those are manufactured versions.

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Speaker 2: Something that I hear a lot and I get it

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Speaker 2: because it can be confusing, is that shame sounds and

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Speaker 2: can feel very similar to the feeling of guilt, and

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Speaker 2: there is a big difference between the two feelings. So

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Speaker 2: when we experience guilt, it is about our behavior I

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Speaker 2: did something wrong, versus shame sends the message I am wrong.

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Speaker 4: Guilt helps us stay in.

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Speaker 2: Line with our morals and our values, and shame sends

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Speaker 2: us messages about who we are, our identity, and it

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Speaker 2: can threaten our belief about our worth. So where shame

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Speaker 2: might say I am a mean person, guilt would say

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Speaker 2: I did something mean. And it's also really important to

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Speaker 2: remember here that you can experience more than one feeling

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Speaker 2: at a time, so you could experience both guilt and

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Speaker 2: shame together. Maybe you feel guilt about a behavior and

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Speaker 2: then you carry that into shame about what that behavior

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Speaker 2: says about you as a human. So instead of saying

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Speaker 2: I'm flawed and I messed up, the shame comes in

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Speaker 2: with the guilt I messed up. I wish you to

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Speaker 2: do this that fit in with my character and my values.

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Speaker 2: I am flawed and I don't deserve love and belonging

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Speaker 2: because I made this mistake, Because this mistake is now

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Speaker 2: defining characteristic of who I am. Where a behavior just

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Speaker 2: gets to be a behavior, it doesn't then encompass the

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Speaker 2: wholeness of me.

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Speaker 4: So this can feel really confusing and heavy.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to give you a couple of things

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Speaker 2: that I want you to remember about shame that will

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Speaker 2: be very helpful when it feels like you're kind of

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Speaker 2: like in the woods with all of this and defining

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Speaker 2: it and talking about So here are four things to

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Speaker 2: remember about shame.

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Speaker 4: Here are four things to.

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Speaker 2: Remember about shame. One, the less we talk about shame,

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Speaker 2: the more shame we will have. Two, Shame feeds off

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Speaker 2: of secrecy, silence, and judgment. You can see how those

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Speaker 2: go hand in hand. So shame feeds off of secrecy, silence,

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Speaker 2: and judgment. So the less we talk about it, the

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Speaker 2: more we're going to have. The toxic shame lives and

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Speaker 2: depends and thrives on buying into the belief that you

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Speaker 2: are alone in what you're experiencing, that this is about

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Speaker 2: you individually and not your humanity. And then for shame

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Speaker 2: cannot survive when empathy enters the room, that is the

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Speaker 2: healing agent. And I really really want to drive home

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Speaker 2: this part about secrecy and silence, because, like I said,

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Speaker 2: shame is similar to other emotions, and with other emotions,

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Speaker 2: if we don't want to feel, we can do a

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Speaker 2: really good job of convincing ourselves that the more we

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Speaker 2: ignore something, the easier it will be to deal with it,

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Speaker 2: or you won't have to deal with it at all. However,

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Speaker 2: avoidance of our stuff, our experiences, our problems, all of

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Speaker 2: that actually perpetuates the thing that we are avoiding, rather

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Speaker 2: than dissolves it. The avoidance of something that, let's say,

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Speaker 2: makes us anxious, it's going to end up making us

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Speaker 2: more anxious about that thing. The avoidance of the thing,

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Speaker 2: not the thing the anxiety, isn't going to make us anxious.

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Speaker 2: The avoidance of the anxiety and hiding our shame creates

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Speaker 2: more space for us to feel shame about our shame.

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Speaker 2: Refusing to acknowledge reality turns our pain from pain into suffering.

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Speaker 2: And typically we don't want to feel pain, but feeling

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Speaker 2: pain does not have to include suffering. Now, yesterday I

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Speaker 2: somewhat impulsively put out this question box on Instagram that

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Speaker 2: just basically said that I had been talking about shame

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Speaker 2: a lot with my clients lately at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: the year, and I put on there that it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to remember that secrecy is what our shame feeds

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Speaker 2: off of, and it's really easy to remember that.

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Speaker 4: Talking about our shame is uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like play a game with ourselves, and we

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Speaker 2: put it in the forefront of our minds that shame

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Speaker 2: is uncomfortable, and then we kind of, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: conveniently forget that talking about shame is is the healing agent,

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Speaker 2: and secrecy actually it makes shame worse. And so kind

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Speaker 2: of as a little practice of releasing some of the

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Speaker 2: shame or releasing some of the secrecy, I put out a

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Speaker 2: little question box where people could share their secrets anonymously.

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Speaker 2: And I've seen kind of this stuff done before on

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Speaker 2: social media and different things, where people are able to

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Speaker 2: just you know, unearth their secrets that might be making

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Speaker 2: them sick, causing them to have an extensive amount of

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Speaker 2: shame that is unnecessary.

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Speaker 4: That's holding them captive.

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Speaker 2: And I thought it might be something that we could

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Speaker 2: do in our little community on the internet. And after

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Speaker 2: I put that out, oh, and I posted a couple

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Speaker 2: of the things that people wrote anonymously. Obviously, I had

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Speaker 2: a old colleague and friend message me and say, oh,

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Speaker 2: this reminds me of the secret ceremony that we did

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Speaker 2: at the place that we used to work at together.

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Speaker 2: And what we would do is we would have clients

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Speaker 2: share some of their secrets around like a bonfire together.

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Speaker 2: It would be one of our group therapy experiential therapies

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Speaker 2: of the month. We did it pretty often in rotation.

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Speaker 2: I kind of forgot that we did this until she

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Speaker 2: said this. And what would happen is we would sit

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Speaker 2: around this bonfire and we would have the clients write

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Speaker 2: on pieces of paper just the secret safe in holding

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Speaker 2: the things that they have been not allowing themselves to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge or share with others because they told.

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Speaker 1: Them that they're bad or wrong or people wouldn't love them.

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Speaker 2: If this was just any secrets that felt really threatening

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Speaker 2: to them, Now again we didn't force anybody to do this,

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Speaker 2: so it was whatever they were really comfortable with sharing

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Speaker 2: at that moment. If a client was new and didn't

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Speaker 2: know a lot of the other clients yet, they might

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Speaker 2: not share to the extent that a client that had

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Speaker 2: been there for a couple months might share, and they

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Speaker 2: would have a chance to do that again later, so

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Speaker 2: that it sound like they would miss out. But essentially

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Speaker 2: what would happen is people would write down their secrets

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Speaker 2: on this piece of paper and then one by one,

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Speaker 2: whenever somebody was ready, they would go up to the

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Speaker 2: fire and they would share their secret.

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Speaker 1: They would put the paper in the fire, and then they.

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Speaker 4: Would go sit back down.

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Speaker 2: And what would happen is, obviously the fire burns these

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Speaker 2: secrets and turns this paper into ashes. And it was

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Speaker 2: a symbolic ceremony that encouraged hope through this idea of

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Speaker 2: the phoenix or something new, something beautiful, new life kind

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Speaker 2: of rising out of the ashes of something that wasn't

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Speaker 2: very desirable, right, And we wouldn't process each secret, We

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Speaker 2: didn't make comments about the secrets. We just sat there

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Speaker 2: as a group of people sharing and it was again

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Speaker 2: what each person was comfortable sharing. And it seems like

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Speaker 2: such a basic thing that we did even like describing it.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, this doesn't sound very like salacious or anything

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Speaker 2: like that, and it wasn't. It was very basic. We

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Speaker 2: were just a group of humans who were holding space

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Speaker 2: for each other and allowing each other to share things

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Speaker 2: that had been really scary and hard for them to share.

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Speaker 2: And then we just sat with them. We didn't try

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Speaker 2: to make them feel better. We didn't again make comments

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Speaker 2: or process or we didn't do any of that. We

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Speaker 2: just let people share and let ourselves sit with the

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Speaker 2: gravity of what each person was bringing to the table.

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Speaker 2: And the transformation during those ceremonies was incredible. And as

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Speaker 2: a therapist, I was, especially in the beginning of the ceremonies,

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Speaker 2: so in awe of how just speaking something elicited so

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Speaker 2: much transformation. And you know, we're taught and we want

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Speaker 2: to do like all these fancy techniques and so all

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Speaker 2: these fancy words and things and help people through different modalities,

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Speaker 2: and this sectivity and this thing and all this was

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Speaker 2: the healing agent. Here was just not being alone in

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Speaker 2: our stuff and acknowledging that this whole group, everybody has stuff,

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Speaker 2: and that is actually something that connects us more than

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Speaker 2: separates us. I don't know the science. I don't know

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Speaker 2: the ins and outs. I don't know the brain chemistry

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Speaker 2: of how all this works. But what I do know

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Speaker 2: is I have seen time and time again how even

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Speaker 2: just writing something down on a piece of paper and

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Speaker 2: getting it out of just living in your body can

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Speaker 2: create real change and real compassion and self compassion and

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Speaker 2: release so much ickiness and real like toxic shame out

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Speaker 2: of our body. And going back to the question box

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Speaker 2: I put up, I started getting answers really quickly when

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Speaker 2: I put that question box up. And I was honestly

294
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Speaker 2: very overwhelmed at first, because I didn't expect people to

295
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 2: be so open and also so ready to share, and

296
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Speaker 2: I didn't expect so many people to do that. I

297
00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 2: might get a couple things, and I might be I

298
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Speaker 2: don't know, and I don't want to judge people's secrets,

299
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Speaker 2: but I just didn't expect the gravity I think of

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Speaker 2: what people were ready to show up and get off

301
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Speaker 2: their chest. And I said, I was overwhelmed. It was

302
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 2: a very kind of good overwhelmed because what I noticed

303
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 2: as I started sharing them and I was getting more

304
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Speaker 2: come in I didn't share all of them to my page,

305
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,640
Speaker 2: but as I did start to share them, so many

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Speaker 2: of the secrets were very similar.

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Speaker 4: And through that I want to call it kind of

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Speaker 4: an experiment.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm going to continue to do it as

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Speaker 2: a series because it felt so cathartic for so many people,

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Speaker 2: where it seemed as it as though it was. But

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Speaker 2: two things that experiment shown me is that one, people

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Speaker 2: want to share their stories. People want to share their truth. However,

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Speaker 2: we just might be really scared to do that, or

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Speaker 2: we don't know how, or maybe we don't feel or

316
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Speaker 2: know or don't experience a place where that feels safe.

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Speaker 2: And then two, we are way more similar than different,

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Speaker 2: and we are not alone. And you guys listening out

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Speaker 2: there are not alone. And the more you share, the

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Speaker 2: more we can allow ourselves to connect to the humanity

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Speaker 2: and receive the empathy and compassion from other people. You know,

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Speaker 2: we really rob ourselves of the ability to receive others

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Speaker 2: love and care and compassion when we hide ourselves from people.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's one of those things where I

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Speaker 2: was talking about, when we create these manufactured versions of

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Speaker 2: ourselves that we want people to show up, or that

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Speaker 2: we feel like people want us to show up with

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Speaker 2: because we shouldn't show up with our real stuff. We

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Speaker 2: get this manufactured love that doesn't feel totally all authentic.

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Speaker 2: But when we show up with our real selves with

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Speaker 2: all of our stuff and somebody's like, yeah, I see

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Speaker 2: you and I love you still, that is very powerful.

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Speaker 2: This kind of goes along with what I talked about

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Speaker 2: last week on the Monday episode, how the messages we

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Speaker 2: develop end up turning into the message we developed as

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00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 2: we grow up about how to survive and what's right

337
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Speaker 2: and what's good turn into these rules that we live by.

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Speaker 2: And I do want to say that there are certain

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00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: rules that you might have lived by and things that

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Speaker 2: you didn't share with certain people for a reason. And

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Speaker 2: while I'm driving home this idea that it's helpful to

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00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,959
Speaker 2: release our secrets and that our secrets actually keep us

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00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 2: more sick than safe. Our secrets aren't for everybody. They

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Speaker 2: are for us to share with safe people and people

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Speaker 2: who have the ability to show us empathy and also

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Speaker 2: sit in there humanists too.

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Speaker 4: So what also is so interesting.

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Speaker 2: To note here as we're talking about this is while

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00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 2: secrets can keep us emotionally and mentally sick, and they

350
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 2: can really damage our sense of self and how we

351
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 2: view ourselves. Secrets can also have really serious physical repercussions

352
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 2: on us and keeping secrets, like holding secrets, and this

353
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 2: is really any secret what I'm really talking about, and

354
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Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff is the stuff about ourselves,

355
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 2: like our own stories that we tell ourselves are not

356
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Speaker 2: for other people to know or hear, or if I

357
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 2: share this they will think blank. But really, when I'm

358
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 2: talking about some of how secrets can really damage our

359
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: physical health as well, this is kind of any kind

360
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: of secret, right can be something else's secret, It can

361
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 2: any kind of secret, and it's because it puts our

362
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 2: brain in this very awkward, compromised position where our brains

363
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 2: are actually wired to tell the truth. And I'm going

364
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 2: to explain this in a very simple base terms. So

365
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,880
Speaker 2: our brains are wired to tell the truth. And when

366
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Speaker 2: we go against those natural wirings, like the wirings that

367
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: we're actually born with, not the wirings that we might

368
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 2: have shifted based on our experiences and what we have

369
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: seen in the world, but like the natural way our

370
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 2: brain was set up to work is to tell the truth.

371
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: And when we go against those natural wirings. What happens

372
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 2: is our brain just gets stressed because it takes work

373
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Speaker 2: and it takes effort to go against those natural wirings.

374
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Speaker 2: And so what happens when our brain gets stressed, not

375
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,320
Speaker 2: just like us as a human, but like parts of

376
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Speaker 2: your brain. What happens when that gets stressed, Well, think

377
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 2: about what happens with other organs in our bodies.

378
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 4: When they get stressed.

379
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: It makes them have to work harder, and it makes

380
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,199
Speaker 2: the work harder, it makes the function more difficult to

381
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 2: put out. And so what happens in our brain is

382
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 2: we end up producing more cortisol, which is also known

383
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: as the stress hormone. And higher levels of cortisol are

384
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 2: known to impact our memory. It's known to impact our

385
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: blood pressure, metabolism, our immune system, our gi track. They

386
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: can lead to issues with blood pressure and all different

387
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: kinds of things when we have an excess of this

388
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: stress hormone in our body, and that can also affect

389
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 2: our sleep. And what we know about sleep is our

390
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 2: sleep and our quality of sleep affects so much, including

391
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 2: on a very basic level, our mood, our irritability, our memory,

392
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: or our ability to remember and to withhold and to

393
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: hold on to and understand information, and that is going

394
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 2: to impact our overall functioning day to day on a

395
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: long scale. You can just think about how the consistency

396
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: of that would kind of build and build and build.

397
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: And Okay, if I have one day where I'm a

398
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: little irritable and I can't remember things, I'm just I

399
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: have a little bit more stress in my body, and

400
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 2: that's happening for a day. Imagine if that's something that's

401
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 2: happening day after day after day that is going to

402
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: end up leading to these long term, more chronic issues

403
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: with our health. Like I said, that is talking about

404
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: all kinds of secrets, and you can probably assume that

405
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 2: different kinds of secrets will essentially affect us on different

406
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: levels and differently. For example, the bigger the secret that

407
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 2: you're holding, the bigger the scale of this is all

408
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: going to happen on And there are secrets that might

409
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: not have a measurable impact, like this like a surprise

410
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: party where you actually it feels.

411
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: Good to hold this secret.

412
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 4: It just like is a little bit difficult, and.

413
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: You just hold it for this period of time and

414
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: then there's this release in this excitement.

415
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: And also there are secrets that you.

416
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: Because they're sacred, right, and they are important for you,

417
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: and they are it's more of a privacy than a

418
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: I'm scared to share this, right, And I think with

419
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: that it's really important to remember there's a big difference

420
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: between secrecy and privacy, and differentiating between the.

421
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: Two is very valuable. Right.

422
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: Secrecy oftentimes feels icky, and again it goes against that

423
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: like wiring for us to tell the truth, it usually

424
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: goes against.

425
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: A lot of our morality and our value system.

426
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 2: And there's a part of it in there that that

427
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: is sending us the message that I am again, I'm

428
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: keeping this a secret because when it's about me, because

429
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: if I share this then something bad will happen.

430
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: And if people know this, then this will be true.

431
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: But just by sharing, having that in your head, you've

432
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: already decided that this is true about me. Again, it's

433
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: that self rejection, right, You're already rejecting yourself by not

434
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: allowing people to see you and love you. Still, I

435
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 2: did want to put that little caveat there where secrecy

436
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: is different than privacy, and I want us to continue

437
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: to allow ourselves to have privacy, because again, certain things

438
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: aren't for everybody, and certain parts of our story that

439
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: aren't secrets, that are not meant for everybody.

440
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: I talk about this a lot, where like to heal.

441
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: And process our trauma, we don't have to tell the

442
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: whole world about it. I mean, we can if we

443
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: want to, but it is helpful to share it with somebody.

444
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 2: And when we don't allow ourselves to share it with anybody,

445
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 2: it becomes almost like this poison we're holding within our bodies,

446
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 2: where we're self rejecting ourselves. We're saying, if somebody sees this,

447
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: if somebody knows this about me, then I will lose relationships,

448
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: I will lose my value, I will lose my place

449
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 2: in this world. I will lose I mean resources, when

450
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: oftentimes sharing those parts of ourselves with somebody might bring

451
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: us more than take away. So I've mentioned and I

452
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: feel like I've said it a couple times throughout this episode,

453
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 2: but there is a common phrase that is said within

454
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: a lot of the recovery community, and I've heard it

455
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: and used it throughout my work as a therapist, and that.

456
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 4: Phrases secrets keep us sick.

457
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,239
Speaker 2: And what I really hope by talking about this and

458
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: maybe continuing the series of the just like Get this

459
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: off my Chest on Instagram. We can allow ourselves to

460
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: really know that to be true. We can actually stand

461
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: in the light of that that secrets do keep us

462
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: sick and truth keeps me connected. Truth allows me to

463
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 2: have compassion, and my story gets to involve empathy. And

464
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: So whether you wait for another one of the get

465
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 2: Us off your Chest series we do on Instagram, or

466
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: you just decide today, I'm going to write this down

467
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: on a piece of paper. I'm going to write this

468
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: thing down that I'm not ready to share with anybody,

469
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 2: but I don't want it to just live within my body.

470
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to put it on paper. I'm really challenging

471
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: you guys to do that and see what it feels like.

472
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 2: And maybe you create a little secret ceremony for yourself

473
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: where you get to burn it. And a lot of

474
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 2: our clients would then collect the ashes and keep them

475
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: as just like a keepsake or a memory. At one

476
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 2: person made some jewelry with their ashes where they got

477
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 2: to carry around this thing that used to be a secret,

478
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: but now they know actually connects them and makes them

479
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: more human than anything else and does not get to

480
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: define their character or their worth. So I really just

481
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: want to put that out there as something that you

482
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: guys might also encourage yourselves to do. If you're struggling

483
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: with something that feels taboo for you to share with

484
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,400
Speaker 2: the world and do it in your own time. Right,

485
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: you don't have to do this today. You might need

486
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: to sit on it for a while because this might

487
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: be something that you've held for years, or.

488
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 4: I mean even just like holding something for day.

489
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: Allow yourself to take the time and space to prepare

490
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: yourself to do something like that. But I do want

491
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: you to know that that option is there for you,

492
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: and it's okay if people know the truth of who

493
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: you are, because the truth of who you are isn't

494
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: just one thing, it's a lot of things. This is

495
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: off topic, but it makes me think of how when

496
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: I'm talking about dating with some clients, and specifically like

497
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: during things that don't work out, whether they're just like

498
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: a couple dates.

499
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: And the guy didn't or the girl didn't call.

500
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: Me back, or there's a breakup, and usually people go

501
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: through this phase of well, if I wouldn't have done this,

502
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: or if I didn't do that, and I'm like, uh

503
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: uh no, those are all stories, those are false, those

504
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: are holding you hostage to acknowledge that this actually isn't

505
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: something about you not being good enough or you being

506
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: wrong or you not being worthy, because when somebody is

507
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: for us, when somebody is a match for us and

508
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: we really want to be with somebody, we don't see

509
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: one thing they do, like I don't know, you lost

510
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: your temper once, or you said something one time that

511
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: I didn't like, or you made a comment that hurt

512
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: my feelings, or I mean, I feel like those are

513
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: all kind of the same, but like you get what

514
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like one thing doesn't happen, you wear a

515
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: weird outfit or something like that, and I'm like, ugh, okay, no,

516
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: not for me, it's not going to work because this

517
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: one thing doesn't define the truth of who they are.

518
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: The truth of who somebody is is so.

519
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 4: Much more than that.

520
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: And it's about consistency versus the perfection of something, because

521
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: the perfection of something does not exist when we're talking

522
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: about human beings and relationships. And so when that happens,

523
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: we're trying to give ourselves the illusion of control that

524
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: I could have had control about around this situation. The

525
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: reality is that that just like wasn't the relationship for you,

526
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: and that wasn't the person for you, and that's hard

527
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: to sit with, but it's not because this one thing

528
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: you did ruined you. And I want people to know

529
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: that about their secrets, like there's not one thing about

530
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: you that ruins you, because there are so many parts

531
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: of you that can be true.

532
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: At the same time.

533
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: And none of us all of those truths. None of

534
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: us have truths that we are super super super super

535
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: proud of and want to shout to the rooftops. None

536
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: of us have all of those And I just wish

537
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: we talked about that more. Kind of feel like a

538
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: broken record and kind of feel kind of like cliche

539
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: when I say stuff like that, but I really wish

540
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: that we did. I can think of so many examples

541
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: and experiences in my life where if the people around

542
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: me were actually showing up as real and true and

543
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: bringing honesty to the table, like I would have also

544
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: brought my honesty right with a collective effort. We're all

545
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: being quiet, but I would have alleviated so much of

546
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: the messaging and allowed me to feel more with people

547
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: and more connected to people than different and separated. And

548
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: this goes from like big things to like really really

549
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: I mean small, but it felt big at the time.

550
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: Like I just remember I had really bad acne as

551
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: a kid, like in high school, and I went on

552
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: acutating it. Actually did it twice. I did it in

553
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: high school, and I think I did it right after

554
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: college or maybe in college. But like even just thinking

555
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: about how I spent so much time like looking for

556
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: the right makeup to like cover my acne, or not

557
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 2: wanting to like wash my face before soccer practice or

558
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: stuff like that, which made my acne worse because I

559
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: had this illusion that like to be good and beautiful

560
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: and okay and ford to be worthy of belonging to

561
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 2: a friend group or whatever, I had to look a

562
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: certain way when like, oh my gosh, so many of

563
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 2: us struggled with that, and I had nothing to do

564
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: with our value and worth right, And if there were

565
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: more people in the world showing up with a ZiT

566
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: on their face and and perfect skin, then I would

567
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: actually be able to feel more connected than separate and

568
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: different and unworthy in a lot of these spaces. And

569
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: again that might feel like a really small potatoes example,

570
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 2: but it's also I mean that bleeds into so many

571
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: of the like beauty standards that we struggle with. And

572
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: I did a couple episodes with an esthetician Hannah Ellis

573
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: about just the illusion of perfect skin and how like

574
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: there's so many smoothing filters on social media, where like

575
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: I get really confused because I'm like, is I can't

576
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: even tell.

577
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 4: What's real and what's not.

578
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: And what I've had to do because I created this

579
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: shaming process of myself is when I would use these

580
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: filters because I told myself I looked better and people

581
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: would like me more if I use these filters, right.

582
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 4: Like why am I? Like, why am I gonna.

583
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: Put this filter on?

584
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: Is it because it like matches the other pictures in

585
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: my phone and it looks nice and da da da?

586
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: Or Am I using this because I want somebody to see

587
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: this and think something about me?

588
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: Right? That's not my point.

589
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: But my point is like I.

590
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: Had to stop using filters on social media because I

591
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: would go back and look at old stuff and be

592
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: like what happened to me? Like, gosh, I don't look

593
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: like that anymore. And it's because I never looked like that,

594
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: and I would feel so bad about myself and then

595
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, wait a second, I never looked like that

596
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: I never looked like that, and I did not feel

597
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: bad about myself when I didn't look like that in

598
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: the real mirror until I saw what I was supposed

599
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: to in quotes look like with these filters.

600
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: And so I think that this right here is just me.

601
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: Giving examples of like, if we were all showing up

602
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: with our humanness and some of these secrets that we

603
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: hold that we try to avoid, then we would feel

604
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: better about ourselves, would feel better about the world the

605
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: people around us.

606
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 4: But somebody's got to do it first.

607
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: I think that's the other thing is I was saying, like,

608
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: I'm not sharing my stuff, I'm putting the filter on

609
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: because these other people are putting these filters on, and

610
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: I don't want to be the first one. And we've

611
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: got to step into our braveness at some point, and

612
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: our courage really is what that is. Like, ripple effects

613
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: will happen, maybe slowly, but they'll happen. We've already seen

614
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 2: a lot of that happen on social media. And I

615
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier the secrets that people were sending to me

616
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: on Instagram. There were so many that were similar. Rarely

617
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: did I get one that was like, oh, this isn't

618
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: a category of its own, Like next time, maybe I'll

619
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: like read some of them, but you can also go

620
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: to my Instagram and look at them as well. I'll

621
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: make a highlight of them so you can see them

622
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: and it can help you feel less alone in that

623
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: as well, because again, the whole point of this is

624
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: we're not alone.

625
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: We actually are together. We just don't know it right now,

626
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: and I really want to encourage us to allow us

627
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: to know it. So that's all I got today.

628
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 2: My challenge of my encouragement is to if you're holding

629
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: onto a secret, maybe about just taking that first step

630
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: and writing it down and see what that feels like,

631
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: and allow yourself to release yourself from some of these

632
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: chains we're putting on on ourselves so that we can

633
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 2: create deeper and more meaningful, compassionate, loving relationships with the

634
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: people all around us.

635
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: If you have any comments, questions, feedback, you can send

636
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: that to me Catherine at you Need Therapy podcast.

637
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 2: You can follow us at you Need Therapy Podcasts on

638
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 2: Instagram and at cat dot defata. And until Wednesday when

639
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: I come out with couch Talks, I hope you

640
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: Guys have the day you need to have