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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grief. The judge has just ordered

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Speaker 1: the jury out for a lux recess, and I noticed

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Speaker 1: that it was when the state said this may be

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Speaker 1: a good time for a recess. The state is right

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Speaker 1: in the middle of a Syrian cross examination of double

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Speaker 1: murder suspect Alex Murdog on the stand, and he's got

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Speaker 1: him caught in so many lies. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: he changed his story again in the last twenty minutes.

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Speaker 1: I think I've got this right. First, he said he

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Speaker 1: checked Paula Mackie's pulse when he found them dead in

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Speaker 1: the kennel, then called nine one one. Okay. In court

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Speaker 1: he said the reverse that he saw them, went back

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Speaker 1: to his phone, call nine one one, and then went

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Speaker 1: to go check their pulse. Now he's saying he was

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Speaker 1: called nine one one while he was checking paul his

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Speaker 1: son's pulse. Okay. A lot happening in the courtroom. The

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Speaker 1: jury has just left with their lunch break with me

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Speaker 1: and all Star panel to make sense of what is

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Speaker 1: happening right now. To Ronnie Riter joining us, a high

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Speaker 1: profile lawyer for the center Field family and other Alex

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Speaker 1: Murdog victims, partner at Bland Richter, Thanks for being with us. Ronnie,

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Speaker 1: what do you make to me? This is significant because

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Speaker 1: even though it was many years ago the day my

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Speaker 1: fiance was murdered, I remember exactly what happened when he

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Speaker 1: left the house that morning, and I never saw him

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Speaker 1: alive again. So do you find it very unusual this

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Speaker 1: is his third story? No, I mean not for this

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Speaker 1: particular player. Right. We know him to be a liar,

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Speaker 1: so he is consistent with his stripes. This is what

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Speaker 1: he does, you know, And this is the hazard of

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Speaker 1: taking the stand. You've taken a very complex case and

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Speaker 1: you've boiled it down to a single issue, and that

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Speaker 1: is does a jury believe Alex but on the most

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Speaker 1: important lie of his life, the lie he told the

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Speaker 1: police about where he was at the time of the murders.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe him or not? Because if he's lying,

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Speaker 1: it means he's lying because he has a reason lie.

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Speaker 1: So it all boils down to that one issue. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I had a thought, and I want to see what

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Speaker 1: you think about it. Guys also with me in addition

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Speaker 1: to Ronnie Richter, is Jeff Gentry, forensics expert in joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Fresno. Susan Constantine, a nonverbal communication expert.

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Speaker 1: She's watching his every move, not just listening to what

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Speaker 1: he is saying. Doctor Michelle Dupreep, I thought, just medical

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Speaker 1: examiner and detective an author, and we're waiting for Ann

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Speaker 1: Emerson from w CIV ABC to come out of the courthouse. Guys,

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Speaker 1: I want you to help me articulate this. Okay. He

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Speaker 1: is trying to explain why he lied. Within twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: after the murders, he was concocting a lie that he

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Speaker 1: had never been at the dog kennels. And now that

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Speaker 1: he and his lawyers have seen the state's case and

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Speaker 1: they know that there is proof he was at the

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Speaker 1: dog kennels, He's like, oh, yeah, well I was there.

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Speaker 1: He got me. Now, why is it that that night

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Speaker 1: he knew that being at the kennels earlier in the

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Speaker 1: evening would incriminate him. Only the killer would know what

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Speaker 1: time the murders went down. I mean, for all he knows,

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Speaker 1: the murders happened five minutes before he got back home.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that he knew to lie about the

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Speaker 1: critical moment of the killing, about his whereabouts, he could

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Speaker 1: have easily told the police the truth. Doctor Michelle Dupris.

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Speaker 1: He could have said, I was just there. I shows

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Speaker 1: out at the kennels. We were playing with the dogs,

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Speaker 1: and we did a snapchat video and a cell phone

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Speaker 1: video and everything was fine, and I got in my

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Speaker 1: car and I went to my mom's. I was there

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty forty minutes. I came back and they were dead.

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Speaker 1: But he, of all people in the world, knew that

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Speaker 1: that moment, that timing was critical. Only the killer would

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Speaker 1: have known that. Fancy, that's exactly right. And you know,

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Speaker 1: look at that video again, he does not seem paranoid.

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Speaker 1: I mean not at all. He seems actually rather relaxed.

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Speaker 1: He is not distrustful of law enforcement at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. But he keeps telling in his rendition of this,

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Speaker 1: he keeps saying how he distrusted Sled and again he

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Speaker 1: has worked with these guys for years. I just don't

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Speaker 1: see it. He doesn't look paranoid at all to me

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Speaker 1: until he begins to break down in tears, and then

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Speaker 1: things start to change. You know, I think he turned

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Speaker 1: those water works on and off at will. You know,

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Speaker 1: Ronnie Richter, are you getting my gist of what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I may not be articulating it as well as you could.

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Speaker 1: But you can stick with your story about you went

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Speaker 1: to your mom's and you lay down on the bed

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Speaker 1: and you were there for well, he says forty minutes.

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Speaker 1: The caregiver says, he says forty She says twenty. But

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Speaker 1: how would he know to lie about the moment of

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Speaker 1: the murders if he were not the killer? No, I

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Speaker 1: get your point exactly, and I think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be very difficult for a jury not to navigate around

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Speaker 1: that one. You know, what he didn't know at the

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Speaker 1: time of that police interview, or what he didn't appreciate,

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Speaker 1: I think, is the fact that that video existed at all.

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Speaker 1: So now fast forward, you become aware of the charges,

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Speaker 1: you become aware of the state's evidence, you become aware

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Speaker 1: of this video, and it becomes critically important that you

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Speaker 1: back up and explain how is it that you gave

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Speaker 1: a different account to the And I think he's doing

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Speaker 1: a terrible job of that Right now. Joining me is

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Speaker 1: Jeff Gentry, forensics crime scene investigator, certified bloodstained pattern analyst,

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Speaker 1: death investigator, and former toxicology lab analyst. Man. Jeff Gentry,

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Speaker 1: You've worn a lot of hats what doctor Dupree just

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Speaker 1: mentioned about him not seeming paranoid. He wasn't fidgeting, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't scratching in his nose or his face. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: rubbing his hands back together, he wasn't shaking any of

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Speaker 1: his limbs. Christine, get you show the video, not out loud,

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Speaker 1: no sound, but I want everybody to see him in

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Speaker 1: that in the vehicle and the cruiser. He's just sitting there.

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Speaker 1: Calumnists can be telling his story. I mean, look at him.

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Speaker 1: You are a former toxicology lab analyst. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of what doctor Dupree just said. I completely agree.

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Speaker 1: It's it's ridiculous to think that he is just making

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Speaker 1: this up on the fly. It's crazy. This is all

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Speaker 1: planned out, It's it's concocted. I've investigated hundreds of deaths

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Speaker 1: and I've seen people that are under the influence. I've

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Speaker 1: seen people that die as a result of overdoses, and

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Speaker 1: he didn't really seem to be under the influence. He

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Speaker 1: was pregnant, pretty cognizant of what was going on, He

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Speaker 1: was aware of his surroundings. He was acting appropriately, He

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Speaker 1: was answering the questions that he wanted to answer. I've

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Speaker 1: also seen people that have witnessed death. I've seen family

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Speaker 1: members that witnessed death, and they do not act like this.

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Speaker 1: You can tell when it's genuine feelings of pain and

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Speaker 1: anguish after witnessing a death or finding a family member dead.

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Speaker 1: You don't see any of this with him at all.

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Speaker 1: I've also seen the flip side of it. I've seen

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Speaker 1: when families have something to hide or suspects have something

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Speaker 1: to hide, and that's exactly what you're seeing here. It's

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Speaker 1: no surprise his actions are scripted. They're scripted in court,

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Speaker 1: they were scripted the day that he committed these crimes.

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Speaker 1: So everything that you're seeing you would expect to see

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Speaker 1: in somebody in this lame Okay. Susan Constantine with me

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Speaker 1: is master of psychology, deception of Body Language, expert, author

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Speaker 1: of The Complete Idiots Guide to Reading Body Language. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take that the best possible intentions, But Susan,

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Speaker 1: I want you to listen. Christine just turned this around

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Speaker 1: for you guys to hear. Our cut twenty. This is

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Speaker 1: when he changes his story. Well, this is his first

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Speaker 1: story about telling the police. He checked the bodies, both

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Speaker 1: of them, and then called nine one one. This is

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Speaker 1: what he said that night. Boy over there, I could

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Speaker 1: see it was. I could see his brains and I

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Speaker 1: ran over to Maggie. Actually, I think I tried to

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Speaker 1: turn Paul over first. Um uh, you know, I tried

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Speaker 1: to turn him over, and I don't know I figured

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Speaker 1: it out, um himself on popped out of his pocket.

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Speaker 1: I started to try to do something with it, thinking maybe,

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Speaker 1: but then I put it back down really quickly. Um.

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Speaker 1: Then I went to my wife. I did I touched

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Speaker 1: the boat. I tried to take I mean, I tried

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Speaker 1: to do it. It's limited as possible, but I tried

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Speaker 1: to take their pauls on both of them, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know I called nine one one, um pretty much

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Speaker 1: right away. Okay. That see, that's got to synk in

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Speaker 1: with the as I'm called in the on Star data

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Speaker 1: of him opening and closing the car, and opening and

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Speaker 1: closing the car repeatedly at that in those minutes, Susan Constantine,

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Speaker 1: what do you make of his body language there right there? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think is this the one we're talking about that

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Speaker 1: he was in the police car. Because I don't see

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Speaker 1: the video in front of me, but what I will see, yes, too. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's it. Okay, okay, So when I'm watching a spotting language,

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Speaker 1: first of all, let's go back a little bit. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about paranoia. Paranoia. You should be able to see

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Speaker 1: whites above the eye that looks like this. The eyelid

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Speaker 1: is lifted up and you're in a state of paranoia

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Speaker 1: and your mouth dropped. So I've seen this paranoia expression

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Speaker 1: quite a bit with serial killers and people that are

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Speaker 1: detached from their emotions. That was not paranoia. The other

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Speaker 1: thing is that I noticed is that in paranoia, your

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Speaker 1: forehead wool crankle because your isolids are raised. That's paranoia.

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Speaker 1: And the same thing is what you're saying, Nancy, is

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Speaker 1: you would see the fidgetiness the ancients, the oddity of

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Speaker 1: the language, the fast pace of the language, kind of

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Speaker 1: going in and out. I've seen people on opioids when

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Speaker 1: they are in that paranoid statement or a stage that

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Speaker 1: was at it. His body language is left quite open.

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Speaker 1: He has one hand that's rested with his fingers just

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Speaker 1: slightly closed more in a relaxed position. I did not

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Speaker 1: see a sense of franticness about him. I didn't see

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Speaker 1: a lack of concern or even fear those emotions were

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Speaker 1: not present in that car. Guys, Christine, could you pull

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Speaker 1: up our cut nineteen? This is when Alex marlog is

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Speaker 1: questioned on getting out of the car and checking the bodies.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen. Looking at this data to show the

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Speaker 1: vehicle parking at ten or five and fifty five seconds

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Speaker 1: ten or five fifty seven the suburban arrives at the kennels.

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Speaker 1: You agree with that? Okay? The nine one one call

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Speaker 1: was at ten six fourteen, okay, just about twenty seconds later.

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Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? I think that sounds right, Yes, sir,

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Speaker 1: I saw them, and I know I jumped out of

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Speaker 1: my car, but I believe that before I checked them.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I'm almost certain. And then I went back

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Speaker 1: and I got my That's when I went and got

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Speaker 1: my phone and I called down one on one and

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Speaker 1: later at this point that what you're saying here today,

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Speaker 1: now that we have this data, that's not exactly how

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Speaker 1: you expressed it the law enforcement in your part of statements.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? So I disagree with that. Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace looking at this data to show the

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Speaker 1: vehicle parking at ten oh five and fifty five seconds

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Speaker 1: ten oh five fifty seven the suburban arrives at the kennels.

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Speaker 1: You agree with that? Okay? The nine one one call?

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Speaker 1: Was it ten O six fourteen? Okay? Just about twenty

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Speaker 1: seconds later? Do you agree with that? I think that

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Speaker 1: sounds right, Yes, sir, I saw them, and I know

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Speaker 1: I jumped out of my car, but I believe that

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Speaker 1: before I checked them that I'm almost certain. And then

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Speaker 1: I went back and I got my That's when I

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Speaker 1: went and got my phone and I called now one.

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Speaker 1: I want to belave at the point then, what you're

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Speaker 1: saying here today, now that we have this data, that's

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Speaker 1: not exactly how you expressed it the law enforcement in

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Speaker 1: your prior statements. Is that correct? No? So I disagree

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Speaker 1: with that. Okay? Hearing that, M Chris say, let me

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Speaker 1: know when we get Anne Emerson outside of the courthouse,

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Speaker 1: because I want to find out how the jury was

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Speaker 1: reacting to that. To you, Ronnie Richter or a lawyer

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Speaker 1: for the Sidefield family, what do you make of what

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Speaker 1: you're hearing? Well, I mean you hear stark inconsistency, right, So,

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Speaker 1: but the worry is he getting lost on the jury.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you. How are they receiving this? Do they

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Speaker 1: see the stark difference between the two different accounts, and

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Speaker 1: not just the difference, but obviously what's happened in the

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Speaker 1: intervening span of time is Alex has come to learn

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Speaker 1: the evidence that the state has. In chameleon like he's

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Speaker 1: able to shape the story to match the new facts.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's no way you could have done everything

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Speaker 1: that he first described if his yukon pulled up in

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Speaker 1: twenty seconds later he's calling nine one one, So obviously

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Speaker 1: he's shaping the story to fit the evidence. Yes, now

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Speaker 1: that the state's case has been made clear, his story

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Speaker 1: is evolving. Now there was a moment you can see

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Speaker 1: it in our cut seven where prosecutor w and Murdoch's

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Speaker 1: square off over the first time he ever reveals publicly

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Speaker 1: that he actually was at the scene of the martyrs

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Speaker 1: take a list an hour cut seven. When I got

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Speaker 1: arrested and I went to jail, we began reaching out

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Speaker 1: to you to talk to you about all of these things,

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Speaker 1: to try to tell you everything that I had done,

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Speaker 1: to give you all these details to help y'all go

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Speaker 1: through these financial things, and up until the time that

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Speaker 1: y'all charged me with murdering my wife and child, you

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Speaker 1: would never give Jim Griffin a response to iron imitations

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Speaker 1: to sit down and meet with you. Are you saying

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Speaker 1: that you ever before yesterday reached out to anyone through

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Speaker 1: yourself or through your attorneys, and reached out anyone in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement or the prosecution and told them the story

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Speaker 1: about the kennels? Are he telling me that I'm what

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you first place? Sir? No, Sir, I did

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Speaker 1: not just questioning about him volunteering information on these charges

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Speaker 1: bolas his Fifth Amendment right, and we strongly object objections overrules. Yeah, forgrect,

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Speaker 1: he did not bring it. He was talking about financial stands. Okay, Ricter,

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Speaker 1: It does not violate his Fifth Amendment right because he

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Speaker 1: has waived his Fifth Amendment right when he got to

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Speaker 1: pull the witness stand. He is no longer invoking his

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Speaker 1: right to remain silent. Hello, he's on the stand testifying,

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Speaker 1: so there's no more fifth So did you hear the

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Speaker 1: objection on the Fifth Amendment ground? That's ridiculous. This is

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Speaker 1: the hazard of putting the man on the stand. I

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Speaker 1: don't that they put him there or he insisted to go.

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Speaker 1: But everything that had come into evidence up until that

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Speaker 1: point in time is fair game all cross examination. Everybody

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Speaker 1: would have known that in making the decision he's going

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Speaker 1: to testify in the financial crimes are front and center.

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Speaker 1: It is the state's motive case. However you feel about

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Speaker 1: that motive, it's a little shaky, but it is the

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Speaker 1: motive cases they put on his fair game for cross examination.

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Speaker 1: It's a ridiculous objection, Ronnie Richter, attorney for the Sadderfield family.

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Speaker 1: You seem to suggest that the motive is shaky, But

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Speaker 1: isn't it true that the state is never required to

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Speaker 1: show any motive at all, And by showing the extent

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Speaker 1: of his lies and his debt, that the world was

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Speaker 1: spinning out of control for him, that sounds like motive

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Speaker 1: to me. Richter, the state doesn't even have to show motive. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're one hundred percent right. The state does not have

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Speaker 1: to show it. But as a practical matter, the jury

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Speaker 1: always wants to know it. Right, So, whether you have

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Speaker 1: to press or not, the jury wants to know why

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Speaker 1: did you do this? And the idea that I was

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Speaker 1: under such extreme financial pressure that it caused me one

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Speaker 1: day to break and go home and shoot my son's

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Speaker 1: head off and brutally murder my wife that's shaky. But

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Speaker 1: having said that, the defense has now made this a

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Speaker 1: single issue case. Do we believe Alex or not on

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Speaker 1: his account about where he was at the time of

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Speaker 1: the murders, because if he lied about it, he did

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Speaker 1: it because it was important to lie about. And Susan Constantine,

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Speaker 1: I think, I hear you coming in, and I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you. Yes, I hear what Richter's saying, and

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Speaker 1: he's got a really good point, but he's trying to

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Speaker 1: apply logic to an illogical thinking pattern. Nothing Murdoch did

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Speaker 1: stealing nine million dollars, being high on oxy all the time,

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Speaker 1: doing all the cover ups he did. None of that

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Speaker 1: makes sense for a guy that's got a great reputation.

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Speaker 1: He's got a great family standing, he's got a beautiful wife,

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Speaker 1: two sons, three properties that I know of, So none

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Speaker 1: of this makes sense. Susan, No, it doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: And I knew that once he took the stand, because

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Speaker 1: he's now trying his own case that the more he speaks,

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Speaker 1: the more he's going to reveal himself. Deception detection one

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Speaker 1: on one is shut up and let him talk, because

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Speaker 1: when it keeps talking, he's going to start refuting the

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Speaker 1: things that he's already stated, and then the steak can

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Speaker 1: come in and then go back and pull up what

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Speaker 1: he had said and see how they contradict. So I

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Speaker 1: think this was a big win for the state because

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Speaker 1: he's trying to try his own case and his lies

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Speaker 1: are being revealed, especially when he's tried and he's tried

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Speaker 1: and he's tried again, which is nothing but an attempted

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Speaker 1: failure over and over again. So the word tried is

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Speaker 1: a real big one for me. Susan constant saying, you're

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Speaker 1: on it as usual. Hold on, Hey, I think I've

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Speaker 1: got Ann Emerson in the seat. She's just come out

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Speaker 1: of the courthouse, senior investigative reporter to WCIV ABC, and

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Speaker 1: she's also the star of a hit podcast called Unsolved

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Speaker 1: South Carolina, The Murdog, Murders, Money and Mystery. Ant, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being with us. First of all, I've got to know,

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Speaker 1: did a jar or cry yesterday? Well, what I was

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Speaker 1: seeing was I didn't see tears, but I saw a

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Speaker 1: lot of emotion, a lot of leaning in from where

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Speaker 1: I was sitting. What I did see was at some

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Speaker 1: point there was there was some person who was actually

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Speaker 1: from the jury that was actually handing a box of

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Speaker 1: Kleenex to the defend And so that was an extraordinary moment.

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Speaker 1: As far as actual tears from one of the jurors,

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Speaker 1: I didn't witness any tears. Dear Lord and heaven. Rick

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Speaker 1: or you're a trial lawyer, what's worse? You are crying

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Speaker 1: or you're handing a box of Kleenex to the defendant

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Speaker 1: on the stand. Okay, so the Southern or Nancies I

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Speaker 1: could tell you that we can slip you a box

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Speaker 1: of Kleenexes and stab you in the back of the

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Speaker 1: same time. So I'm not that's true. Yeah, Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: very true, Richter, very true. Indeed, the next thing they'll

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Speaker 1: say is bless his heart. Okay, and Anderson, back to

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Speaker 1: you again. Thank you for elbowing your way out of

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Speaker 1: the courtroom, because there's a bottleneck coming out of the

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Speaker 1: courtroom and getting down those stairs. What did you observe

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom? And an Emerson, Well, Nancy, thanks for

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Speaker 1: having me. And you know, after listening to the testimony yesterday,

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Speaker 1: of course we were all sort of on edge to

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Speaker 1: find out how this cross exam was going to keep

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Speaker 1: on going. And boys, it kept on going. He's just

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Speaker 1: nailing down this timeline. So that's what I was really

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Speaker 1: listening to as far as some of what was happening

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Speaker 1: in that courtroom. As you just said, there is a

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Speaker 1: huge crowd in that courtroom today. It is absolutely packed.

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Speaker 1: I heard that this morning at like six o'clock in

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Speaker 1: the morning. They were turning people away saying you're never

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Speaker 1: going to get in because they had actually right in

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Speaker 1: front of me, gone all the way to Hampton Street.

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Speaker 1: If you remember Hampton Street, that line wrapped around and

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Speaker 1: up to the top of the where the courthouse steps

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Speaker 1: are now on top of that, it was a little

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Speaker 1: bit more boisterous in there, to the point where the

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Speaker 1: judge actually had to say to everybody that had come

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Speaker 1: to watch, says, there will be no jeering, there will

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Speaker 1: be no discussion. Everybody needs to be absolutely silent during

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Speaker 1: the proceedings because whenever there was a moment where perhaps

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Speaker 1: the public thought that Alec Murdock was getting away with something,

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Speaker 1: or that Crayton Waters had made a great point, there

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Speaker 1: was definitely a pro state sort of audience up there.

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Speaker 1: You would hear a little jeering or maybe a couple

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Speaker 1: of claps, and as you know, that just cannot go

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Speaker 1: on in Judge Newman's courtroom, So there was that whole

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling. It was a little bit more of

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Speaker 1: a circus today than okay, way way, but this is

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Speaker 1: not the Brooklyn Zoo. People are clapping and cheering and

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Speaker 1: or jeering. I'm surprised no one didn't throw them out

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Speaker 1: on the rear end. I'm shocked, but they didn't. But

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Speaker 1: what he did say was before the jury came back

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Speaker 1: after a break, he said, there will be none of

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Speaker 1: that again, Like you've gotten your warning. You're a new

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Speaker 1: crowd in here. No one is making another sound in

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Speaker 1: my courtroom. So we got it under control there, but

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Speaker 1: it was absolutely going in the early part of this morning.

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Speaker 1: For sure. I'm very, very disappointed, not in the judge,

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Speaker 1: but I'm disappointed in the group in the courtroom. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like they all ballied up to the bar and

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Speaker 1: watching WWE up on the TV screen for Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: Do you know, and well, of course you did, because

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Speaker 1: you're a veteran journalist, that type of behavior can cause

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Speaker 1: a mistrial. Did you know that any outburst in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom you run the risk? Who I think it's viable, No,

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Speaker 1: but can it happen. Yes, they could actually be a

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Speaker 1: mistrial over that kind of behavior. Well, you're absolutely right, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: and you know that is what was Newman trying to

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Speaker 1: stop it. I think as soon as he had a break. However,

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Speaker 1: we've had this once before in the courtroom where it

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Speaker 1: was even louder. And I don't know if you remember this,

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Speaker 1: but it was probably maybe week two, maybe week three.

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Speaker 1: We're on, you know, we're headed into week six next week,

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Speaker 1: so you know, we've had one other instance of this

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Speaker 1: and it definitely was jarring for anyone because it makes

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Speaker 1: your stomach jump, doesn't it. I Mean you're like, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, we can't get this far and then have

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Speaker 1: a mistrial with things going the way they're going right now.

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Speaker 1: But it was extraordinary now as far as what happened

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Speaker 1: and in there, I definitely saw that the jurors were

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Speaker 1: paying a lot of attention there is there is a

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Speaker 1: very strong bee line into this timeline right now. They're

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Speaker 1: working really hard. Waters is working really hard to nail

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Speaker 1: down the defendant on these details of where he was

404
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Speaker 1: after that kennel video before he left for Almida, and boy,

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Speaker 1: all I can say is when y'all were listening to it,

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Speaker 1: you know, we are down to seconds. We are down

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Speaker 1: to seconds of where he was in that house and

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Speaker 1: whether or not it is logical whether he would have

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Speaker 1: heard anything at that point. I am looking from my

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Speaker 1: little trial notebook. I had it down to I think

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Speaker 1: an eleven second window between the time that Maggie answered

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Speaker 1: her last video where Paul and then they all went dead,

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Speaker 1: no more responses. There's that window right there. They're really

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Speaker 1: hammering him and he's changing his story a lot today

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Speaker 1: in the last thirty thirty five minutes about the Kennel story, guys,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eight. But you had

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Speaker 1: met information was never conveyed that you wanted to change

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Speaker 1: your story after multiple interviews with law enforcements about what

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Speaker 1: happened that night, including the most important fact of all,

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Speaker 1: which is when the last time you supposedly saw your

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Speaker 1: wife and son alive, was I understood to bring all

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Speaker 1: this to a close, that y'all would want me to

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Speaker 1: sit down and go through all of these financial things,

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Speaker 1: all of these things that I've done wrong, and to

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Speaker 1: try to bring that to a close. The reality is,

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00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: mister Murdoch is the reason why no one's ever heard

427
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: that before. It's because you had to sit in this

428
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: courtroom and hear your family and your friends, one after

429
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: the other, coming and testify that you were on that

430
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: kennel video. So you, like you've done so many times

431
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: over the course of your life, had to back up

432
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: and make a new story that kind of fit with

433
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: the facts that can't be denied. Isn't that true, sir?

434
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: That's not true. The second that you're confronted with facts

435
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: that you can't deny, you immediately come up with a

436
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: new lie. Isn't that correct? Mister Waters? Have we established

437
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: I have lied many times, but I can't sit here

438
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: and tell you that what are you talking about facts

439
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: that I can't deny? I admit again that I have

440
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: lied to people that trusted me. Okay. Also, new details

441
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: are now emerging with Murdogue on the witness stand about

442
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. Take a listen hour cut nine.

443
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: When did you take the shower that you've been talking about, Joey?

444
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: I believe when I first went in the house, I

445
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: mean I would have talked to Maggie for a second,

446
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: but i'd seen her that morning, so we left your

447
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: clothes on the floor. I'm not sure it makes sense

448
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: to me giving what blank because said, But I couldn't

449
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: tell you about what time was, Like you thinking and

450
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: looking at the records, I think that was a little

451
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: after eight. I came back out, sat out on the

452
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: cash eating dinner. And you say Paul was already eating

453
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: at that point. He was, And just to be clear again,

454
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: but I didn't see him. All of this detail was

455
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 1: people were here for the first time yesterday, like we

456
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: talked about before. Yes, I did not tell law enforcement

457
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 1: and all of this the last time you saw your

458
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: supposedly saw your wife and child. All of this detail you,

459
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: as a lawyer and a prosecutor, didn't think that was

460
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: important to offer on your own. Oh, I think it's important.

461
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: You told this jury how cooperative you were, you've been,

462
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: and how much information you want to provide. But you

463
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: left out the most important parts, didn't you. I left

464
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: out I left out that I sure did the very

465
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: last time he saw his wife and his son alive. Hey,

466
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: guys on the panel, remember we're not having high tea

467
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: with King Charles at Windsor Castle. Jump in people. Rick

468
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: back to you. You're the trial lawyer joining us, But

469
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: all of you, I think can relate to this. The

470
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 1: last time everybody's lost somebody they loved. I lost my fiancea.

471
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: He was murdered shortly before our wedding. I remember the

472
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: last time I saw him. He was driving away and

473
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: I was standing there waving at him, leaving early at

474
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: five o'clock in the morning, and he held his left

475
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: hand out of his car and waved back. The next

476
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: thing I saw of him, he was in a casket.

477
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: I remember that. How did he leave out the last

478
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: time he saw Maggie murdog alive, the last time he

479
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: saw his son alive? Rictor, you're a veteran trial lawyer.

480
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: How could an individual forget that or get it wrong? Somehow? Well?

481
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: You can't, you know. And it's a credibility case. Now

482
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 1: forensics don't matter anymore. I don't think any of it

483
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: matters anymore. I think all that matters is are they

484
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: convinced with the account that he's now giving? And how

485
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: could you be when account keeps changing? I think those

486
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: events would be emblazoned in his mind. I don't see

487
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: any room for any ambiguity here whatsoever. He's had nothing

488
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: to think about since the time of their death except

489
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: this very thing. I think you would remember every look.

490
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: I think you would remember every comment. To think the

491
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: details like this are somehow absent is not credible. And

492
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: doctor Michelle du Pree, pathologist, medical examiner, you have processed

493
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: so many homicides. You've taught of so many witnesses that

494
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: were the last ones to see the victim alive. That's

495
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: very important in your line of work to determine cause

496
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: of death. Sometimes when you need to look at extrinsic

497
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: evidence beyond the victim's body, what do you make of him?

498
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: He can't remember the last It just happened an hour ago,

499
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, an hour, an hour and a half.

500
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 1: He doesn't remember the last time he saw them. He

501
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: can remember something so clearly, things that are not really

502
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: that important, and the important things is so fuzzy on

503
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: And it's clearly evident now that he was much more

504
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: interested in setting up an alibi and confirming his story

505
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: with Blanca and Shelley before he ever gave law enforcement

506
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: the real information, you know, talking about that, I'm going

507
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: to circle back with you, Susan Constantine, but first I've

508
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: got to have corroboration from w CIV and Emerson and

509
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: if I have to hear about the chicken and Bubba

510
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: getting the chicken, and Bubba was proud he caught the chicken.

511
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. Who gives a flying fig about the chicken.

512
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: He talks about it and talks about it, it it talks

513
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: about it. Why is it something comfortable for him to

514
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: talk about. No, it's what he's got to fill in

515
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 1: the gaps now, right now that he's admitted to this

516
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: to the big lie of of the kennel video, he

517
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: has to try and make this timeline fit. And that

518
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: is exactly what he's doing. He's telling the jury to

519
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: their face once again, I really want to talk about

520
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: like that body, like his big six foot four frame

521
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: is filling that jurybox. He is looking straight at the

522
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: jury the whole time. He's telling this new account of

523
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: the story that no one has ever heard before, including

524
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: I guess his lawyers to some degree. We're hearing this

525
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: brand new account. He's got to fit it into this

526
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: really tight timeline that we've been talking about. And part

527
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: of it is how do you get a live animal

528
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: or a dead animal out of the jaws of a

529
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: big dog in just a couple of seconds. Get that

530
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: chicken up on a crate and then get back in

531
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: your golf cart and somehow say goodbye very very quickly

532
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: and then race up to the house. That is what

533
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: createon Waters is trying to break down and make him

534
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: kind of lose track of time, possibly a little bit,

535
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: because that is really the crux of this whole case,

536
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: isn't it, as far as having some really strong threads

537
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: to build this rope for the for the um sate.

538
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: This this is what we're talking about, and and I

539
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: think we're getting very close. So I hear that chicken

540
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: story one more time. I'm going to call the chicken

541
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: in as a hostile witness. So you, Susan Constantaine, what

542
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: about it? What do you make of his demeanor? Every

543
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: time he gets in a bad spot, he'll start snotting

544
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: up or start talking about the darned chicken and the

545
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: dog and the bubba and then this and the spit cup.

546
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: It's just for those of you don't they don't know

547
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: as chewing tobacco and you spit it into a cup. Okay,

548
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: that's said, Go ahead, Susan Constantaine. Cluck cluck, cluck. I

549
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: just had to say that on as we're talking about

550
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: the chicken. Anyway, you had to, I just had to

551
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: do it. So anyway, um, liars always move away from

552
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: the truth, right, So they're trying to use a distractors

553
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: and the chicken and all this other kind of jazz,

554
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: but they also skip over all this incriminating information. So

555
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: he's trying, like I said, he's trying to fit his

556
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: narrative together the timeline, so he intentionally skips over, minimizes,

557
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: removes omits crucial information because it's really important. So back

558
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: to all of these little stress indicators. What's going on

559
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: is his mouth is drying. We know that through just

560
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: the vocal cords get dried, they become strained. He starts

561
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: looking around in his mouth. He's pushing away the inside

562
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: of his mouth, away from his teeth because of the

563
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: dryness of his mouth. That in itself is not a

564
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: deception indicator. But when you combine it with what he's saying,

565
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: his demeanor, with the anxiousness, the nervousness, and the crying

566
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: and the amount of crime. So what I had stated

567
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: earlier on another show is that what he's doing is

568
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: he's pushing these emotions so on a scale of intensity,

569
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: it didn't warrant that level of intensity, but he's forcing

570
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: it so you can see it in his forehead. His

571
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: skin becomes extremely red, really flushed, and then you see

572
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: falls on the snot and everything else all flowing down.

573
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: So he's pushing these emotions. And that's why for others

574
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: that are looking at it are looking going, you know,

575
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: wipe your nose, there's something it's really disgusting, but he doesn't.

576
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: He leaves it there so that everybody can see it

577
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: because what he's doing. His need is to feel people

578
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: to feel sympathy and compassion for him. And that was

579
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: why concerned with two of those jurors to you, Doctor

580
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree joining US Pathologists, medical examiner, former detective, author

581
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Why people have been going

582
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: crazy on social and their right about him sucking his

583
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: teeth and his mouth is dry and he's licking his lips,

584
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: just like Susan Constantine was describing. Why does your mouth

585
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: go dry when you lie or you're under or emotional dress, Nancy,

586
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: it's really still part of that fight or flight response,

587
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: and your mouth becomes dry because you're you're scared, you're nervous,

588
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: you have anxiety, and that's going to cause your mouth

589
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: to go dry when you're not telling the truth, or

590
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: you're nervous, or you know, whatever may be the case.

591
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: You know, to something else, go ahead. Oh okay, there

592
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: was something else that I wanted to point out, and

593
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: it was a note that came up as he was talking.

594
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: As someone said earlier very astutely on the panel, you know,

595
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 1: the more he talks, the more he's trying to fill

596
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 1: in some of these details, and more trouble he could

597
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: possibly get into with his story. And one thing that

598
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: he said, and that was there was nobody around for

599
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: them to sense talking about the dogs, because you were like, well,

600
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: why were the dogs barking? Did you hear the dogs?

601
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: Was there anything going on with the dogs? And he said,

602
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: very clearly, Alex said, there was nobody else around. There

603
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: was nobody else around. That's why the dogs weren't at

604
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: a high alert. That's why we didn't have any problems

605
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: with them. You know what, we were just gonna play

606
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: that an Emerson, you read my mind, Thank you. Dogs

607
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: barking and carrying on or going out into the woods

608
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 1: or acting like they sense somebody was around that they

609
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: didn't know. Were the dogs acting like there was somebody

610
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: around it. They didn't know. Yeah, like dogs do. No, No,

611
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: they weren't. There wasn't nobody there was around that the

612
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: dogs didn't know. Okay, dogs didn't didn't do your indications

613
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: sense anything out of the ordinary. They were just chasing

614
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: after the guinea. There was nobody felts around, all right,

615
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: there you go. There was nobody else around that the

616
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: dogs didn't know, Nobody but him. I was going to

617
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: ask you later one person I wrote in on social

618
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: So what happened he was there at the kennel and

619
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: then what was he doing for the next four minutes?

620
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: Blackberries and sunflowers out on the back lot. I mean,

621
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: it's just nothing he's saying right now, is making any sense. Hey,

622
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: Jeff Gentry, let me ask you a question. The reason

623
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: we're talking about the significance, well, for a lot of reasons, evidentiary,

624
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: probitive reasons. Whether he called nine one before he checked

625
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: their pulse. His story has varied. Now as a matter

626
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 1: of fact, they correct me if I'm wrong. I wrote

627
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: it down during testimony, and Emerson he's now saying, wait

628
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: a minute, I called nine one one while I was

629
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: checking Paul's pulse. He actually said that. He said that,

630
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: didn't he Anne. That's right. He's now trying to marry

631
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: those timelines, are trying to marry that time of when

632
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: he called nine to one one and when he was

633
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: checking pulses and checking the bodies of Maggie and Paul

634
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: and who came first. He's not real sure, but he

635
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: was going back and forth checking these bodies in sort

636
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: of this chaotic fashion. And I'll tell you what it

637
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: reminds me of as a It's a book that that

638
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: Scott Peck wrote called People of the Lie, And it's

639
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: very interesting to hear whether or not he remembers, or

640
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: whether or not he is weaving. He's trying to create

641
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: this um, this blurred timeline at that point. Um just

642
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: not trying to like sit on the truth necessarily, but

643
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: in his mind he's telling now. The story that he's

644
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: saying to the state is it wasn't He wasn't trying

645
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: to lie to David Owen, to h and Owen about

646
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: that timeline. He was just not. He was just panicking.

647
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: He was running from body to body. He was calling

648
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: nine to one at the same time. That is just

649
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: not a clear timeline now and for him. That works

650
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: with what he's trying to say. Jeff Gentry joining us

651
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: at a Fresno. Jeff, you are a blessed Saint, pattern

652
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: analyst and death investigator. I think it's going to be

653
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: critical because of the blood Maggie's blood on his steering wheel.

654
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: Did he check the pulse and then go back to

655
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: the car to get his cell phone? Did he have

656
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: a cell phone on him? At what point did Maggie's

657
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: blood get on his steering wheel? Going back to the

658
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: previous about him checking pulses and everything while he was

659
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: on the nine one one call. So I've also had

660
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: MT training and so both of these people had injuries

661
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: incompatible with life. So Paul had essentially, you know, his

662
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: brain blown out of his head, so he's laying there

663
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: dead on the ground. No reasonable person would check a

664
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: pulse on somebody that has their brain next to their body.

665
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: And then Maggie, she was shot multiple times with an

666
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: AAR fifteen style rifle. I don't know if you've ever

667
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: seen people that have been shot with those guns before,

668
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: but the damage is not pretty so her also there

669
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: Any reasonable person, especially an attorney, somebody has law enforcement experience,

670
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: would not go up and check the pulse of these individuals.

671
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: They would be on the phone immediately, you know, at

672
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: nine one one, trying to get help. They would realize that,

673
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's probably not much that can be done.

674
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: But as far as the blood that was transferred to

675
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: the stirring wheel, that was probably done earlier on. I mean,

676
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: I know it was wet there when he was driving

677
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: to his mother's house, it could have already been transferred

678
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: at that point. I am personally of the opinion that

679
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 1: he disposed of his bloody clothing. I mean, the assault

680
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: was very violent. He was in close proximity to the victims,

681
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: so it makes sense that he would have some blood

682
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: on his clothing, on his shoes, somewhere on his body

683
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: as long as well as GSR. So he knew that.

684
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: And Emerson, I've got to ask you a question before

685
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: you begin to make your way back into the courthouse.

686
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: The jury is showing no recognition of these lines. There

687
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: hasn't been one I roll, not one shake of the head,

688
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: nothing Now, I think much more to the point, there

689
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: have been a couple of times where I've seen jurors

690
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: literally just turned their back to the whole conversation that

691
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: he's having with himself about what happened, and you know,

692
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,919
Speaker 1: trying to explain to Craton Waters. I literally have seen

693
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: body language where you know, jurors literally kind of move

694
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: to be looking in other directions. So I think it's

695
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: even more than that. I saw another one kind of

696
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: just like look down. Like absolutely, to your point, I'm

697
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: definitely seeing recognition of the fact that this does not

698
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: add up at times. Specifically when I'm talking about this,

699
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: I'm specifically talking about the kennel video. I think I

700
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: think that's probably still as much of a timeline issue

701
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: as you could possibly have. So they're having a very

702
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: hard time rectifying that, and you can see it absolutely.

703
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: You can see it on their faces, you know. And Emerson,

704
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: I look at every single fact like it's a rubious Keyme.

705
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: I have to look at it fifty different ways before

706
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: I'm finally happy. Are they Because I've actually read on

707
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: social and people are saying, to my face and the

708
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: grocery store, why is he doing this on cross Why

709
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: won't the state move on from financial? I'm like, because

710
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: this is important. Every detail matters, every lie to someone

711
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: he trusted or loved. He said he loved some of

712
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: his clients, but still lie to their face and stole

713
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: from them. So I'm worried. It says you're fed up

714
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: with the lie and defendant or from the barrage of

715
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: questions from the state, because the state has got to

716
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: do what they've got to do. And yeah, well you're right,

717
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: and I think that they are doing what they need

718
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: to do. But there is like a time where I

719
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: think that you can see absolutely I mean, this has

720
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: been a really long trial. It's a marathon, so you

721
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: can absolutely see on their faces when they start to

722
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: get just kind of fed up with the questioning. And

723
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,959
Speaker 1: we were getting there at lunch time, and of course

724
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: it's right before lunch. I think right before lunch and

725
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: right after lunch seemed to be very dangerous times for

726
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: for whoever is trying to cross or direct on with

727
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: someone on the witness stand. They just starting to kind

728
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: of the jury just starts to kind of lose it

729
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: at some point, you know, one guy, I mean, you know,

730
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: you just never know how people are going to react

731
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: in that situation. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Susan Constantine,

732
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: what do you make jurars actually turning away, physically turning

733
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: their backs. This tells me a lot. I'd love to

734
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: watch the panel the jury. One thing I want you

735
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: to pay attention to is watch their eye blinking, how

736
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: fast it's blinking, because that shows cognitive load and impatience.

737
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: The fact is that they're shifting away away from him.

738
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: That has an anchor shift. That's huge because that's saying

739
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: that they're impatient. There's disbelief even when the head goes down.

740
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: But when you start to see jurors mirroring one another

741
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: and doing that at the same time, that's telling you

742
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: what the majority is feeling. Anytime or moves their shifts

743
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: their anchor, their upper torso or their length, or even

744
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: get up and shift to the other side of the chair,

745
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: that is not a good sign. Because when a person

746
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: is connected and believe someone, they're more, they're right directly

747
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: in front of them, not turning away. Turning away is

748
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: a really bad sign. Is exiting out. I want out

749
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: in here, I'm tired of it. Get me out. I

750
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: don't believe it. George Michelle Duprey, I think I heard

751
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: you jump out. Yes, so I just wanted to make

752
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: a comment. I understand the financial implications and the relevance

753
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: to this, but I'm I'm afraid that the state is

754
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: leaving a little too much for the jury to and far.

755
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: I want the state to come out and say, if

756
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: Alex can lie to the people he cared about and

757
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: loved straight to their face, looked them in the eye,

758
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: why do you think that you should believe him? Now?

759
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: As a jury you don't even know him. But I

760
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 1: want them I want the state to make that case.

761
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave it up to the jury

762
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: to infer that. Nancy. I'm sure they're going to be

763
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: arguing and arguing and closing arguments. Is that you rictor No?

764
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: This is Jeff No, go ahead, Nancy. I agree with

765
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: the doctor. I wish the prosecution during that moment when

766
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: he said that I'm reading it off. He said he

767
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: was willing to hurt the people that he loved. I

768
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: wish the prosecution right after that would have said, well

769
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: did you love Maggie? Did you love Paul? And that

770
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: that way the jury could have heard it in connection

771
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: with him stating that he is willing to hurt the

772
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: people that he loved. Okay, now wait a minute, you

773
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: are an EMT, you're a crime scene investigator. A blood

774
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: stained pattern analyst, a death investigator, former topsychology alive balancet.

775
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: And now you're coming up with some pretty good cross

776
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: examination questions, so you may want to rethink that career

777
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: you've got going on. Who is his doctor, Duke jumping

778
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: in ahead. Yes, yes, that's an excellent point if you

779
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: go back and look at the defense yesterday when he

780
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: asked Alex to describe Maggie and to describe Paul, and

781
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: this was very telling to me. He gives all kinds

782
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: of accolades, very nice adjectives, very personable, very personal adjectives,

783
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: but he does not say I love them, I loved her.

784
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: Offense actually asked that exactly what I thought, because you

785
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: know what, if somebody asked, hey, tell me about David,

786
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, oh, well, you know what, he got

787
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: his CPA and then he went and got his graduate

788
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: degree at the Wharton School, and I would say I

789
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: love him. He's the best father. He takes care of

790
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: my ninety one year old mother and that's certainly not easy.

791
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: He's always upbeat. I wouldn't be talking about his CV.

792
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: And that is what it sounded like when he described Maggie.

793
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: He never said she's my whole world. Never did hear

794
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: that I love her? I love her, Guys, something else

795
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: happened in the courtroom today. I love it when it

796
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: degenerates to this point where the defendant is saying, everybody's

797
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 1: lying but him. Okay, let's kick it off, Christie, let's

798
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:25,720
Speaker 1: you're cut. Seventeen. You told law enforcement on multiple occasions that,

799
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: first of all, Maggie was planning to stay at Edistow

800
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: the night of June seventh. Correct. I did say that,

801
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: all right. And you also said that you came to

802
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: find out that she came home of her own accord. Correct.

803
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: You told that to law enforcement. Is that true? She

804
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: did come home of her own accord, that she decided

805
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: on her own to come home because she was worried

806
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: about you. Didn't that what you said? I did say that.

807
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: I believe that to be the case, all right. But

808
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: since we've despite what you told law enforcement, we've since

809
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: seen the text that you actually called her and asked

810
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: her to come home on the night of June seventh. No, sir,

811
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: that's not correct. That's not correct. No sir, that's absolutely

812
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: not correct. All right. So you heard your sister in

813
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: all married and testified it just that fact of a

814
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: conversation of what she had with Maggie. But you're saying

815
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 1: that's not true. I don't believe that's what Matt Marian said. Okay, Well,

816
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: we all heard Marian Proctor on the stand and she

817
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: said that Maggie communicated to her that Murdoch wanted Maggie

818
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: to come to Mozelle. So I guess Marian Proctor, that's

819
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: Maggie's sister, is just a big fat lawyer, right, Well,

820
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: she's not the only one. Take a listen to our

821
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 1: cut eighteen. When you had a conversation with miss Shelley

822
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: after the fact, you actually asked her to say that

823
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: you were there longer than twenty minutes. You know, I

824
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: heard Shelley's testimony. I believe Shelley to be a good person.

825
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to influence Shelley on any particular length

826
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: of time because at the beginning of this I believe

827
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: that data would show what data would show, and for

828
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: me to tell her to say something when my own

829
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: star is going to show something different just doesn't make

830
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: any sense. So you know, I can't answer that. What

831
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: my recollection is is that I told Shelley that law unfortunately,

832
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: would be talking to her. We may have discussed how

833
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: long I was there at that point in time. If

834
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: I thought I was there forty five minutes, I may

835
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: have said I was here forty five minutes. But you

836
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: know I can't tell you. Okay, So Shelley's also a

837
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: big fat liar. Guess who else is lying his cell time?

838
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fifteen. Remember those seventy

839
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: three calls that were deleted. Well, that's a big out

840
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: lie to the cell phone is lying, or maybe it's

841
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: the phone company. Maybe it's a Verizon. That's the big

842
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: fat liar. Take a listen to our cut fifteen. Do

843
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: you know why so many phone calls were missing from

844
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: the log around this relevant time period when law enforcement

845
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: downloaded your phone on June tenth? From my phone? Yeah, no,

846
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't. Did you delete them, mister Murdoch, Not intentionally.

847
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: Just around the time of June seventh, all these calls

848
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: were missing, but you had nothing to do with that.

849
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: Between June seventh and June tenth, No, sir, I did not,

850
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 1: and I did not delete phone calls from my phone. Mister,

851
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: what is one of the most important things in this

852
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: whole thing? For me, has been getting this data? Did

853
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: I believe would exist? Phone calls and phone records would

854
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: be part of that. I've been in enough civil cases

855
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: and used phone records enough times to know that you

856
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: delete a phone call from your phone, it doesn't disappear.

857
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: So I can tell you this jury and everybody who's

858
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 1: listening that I did not intentionally delete phone calls from

859
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: my phone. Are you talking to me Murdague? Because I'm

860
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: listening and I don't believe you. I guess your cell

861
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: phone's lying. Okay. Ronnie Rector, high profile lawyer that's representing

862
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: the Saddlefield family and other victims of Alex Murdogue. Don't

863
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: you just love it when the defendant starts believing everybody

864
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 1: else is lying he's the only one telling the truth. Yeah,

865
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: I mean there's another one too. Genie Secondary, of the

866
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: firm's bookkeeper, light as well when she described the confrontation

867
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: to the firm over. Oh yes, hold on, I'm going

868
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: to make a flow chart here. Jennie's Secondary, that's right.

869
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: And you know who else? The housekeeper that gathered the

870
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: close up that couldn't find his shirt, So you've got Blanca. Yes,

871
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: thank you. Christine Good Memory Blanca, the housekeeper, Jenny Seconder,

872
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: the cell phone and the cell phone company, Shelley and

873
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: Miss Marian Proctor. They're all liars. Yeah, they're all liars

874
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: in a credibility case where Alex is the ultimate boy

875
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 1: who cried wolf and he desperately needs the town now

876
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: to believe that this time he's telling the truth, and

877
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: to go back to the financial crimesis for a second,

878
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,240
Speaker 1: it's not it's not just that he stole the money,

879
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,959
Speaker 1: but a he stole it by deceit, b and every

880
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: one of their circumstances. He's the guy that only admits

881
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: the truth when you've got two shoulders pinned to the

882
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: mat for a ten count, and then he rolls to

883
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: the next one. And it's the fact that he stole

884
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: the money is bad enough, but the people he stole

885
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: it from make him a monster. And so what we

886
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: know about monsters is that they're scary and they do

887
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: unpredictable things. So if he would steal the money from

888
00:52:55,719 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: Gloria Sadderfield's family, this is the woman that raised his

889
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: children who died literally on his front steps, and he

890
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: saw that as a profit opportunity and left her children destitute.

891
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: If you would steal from that person. It's not just

892
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: that you're a thief or a liar. You are a monster.

893
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: And so if you would do that, what else are

894
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: you capable of doing? Now? Was a Centerfield's son who

895
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: I think is learning challenged. I'm not sure, but I

896
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: think he is. Wasn't hey living and a mobile home?

897
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: And hey, I've got no problem with a mobile home.

898
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: My great grandma lived in one. He was going to

899
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: get that foreclosed on, and even knowing that farlock still

900
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: took his money and all of it. Yes, he was

901
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 1: living in a mobile home with his mother, who's now deceased.

902
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: The bank forecloses on the mobile home. He's a vulnerable adult,

903
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: he's displaced and homeless. There were four point three million

904
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: dollars was recovered. Any money for that young man would

905
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: have changed that the arc of his life, and Alex

906
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: took every dime. Well, you know, there's really nowhere for

907
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: me to go from right there, But everybody on the

908
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: pal I want you to hear something that Christine and

909
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 1: I cooked up. I cut her off at about forty seconds.

910
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: Here is Alex Murdog's go to when he's in a

911
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: tight bind, when he's got his reread and a sling

912
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: in the courtroom roll at Christine. Now, I don't remember

913
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: doing that. I don't believe that I've ever had one

914
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: of those. I don't know a single thing about that,

915
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,479
Speaker 1: not that I remember. I don't. I certainly don't recall,

916
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: mister Waters. If I did, I should don't recall it.

917
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 1: I don't specifically remember doing that. I don't remember taking

918
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: the oath. I have no idea. I don't know. I

919
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. I don't know, but I

920
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: don't believe so. But I really don't know. I don't

921
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: remember having that. I don't know. You don't remember that.

922
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: I don't remember that, No, sir, I don't know. I

923
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: don't have a specific memory of that. But I can't

924
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: say I don't remember it. I don't even recall this,

925
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: mister Waters, Chris saying you have to add volunteer to

926
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: that police okay, because there's just so many you know,

927
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: to Susan Constantine, we heard Murdog puffing himself up talking about, Hey,

928
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: I've tried a lot of cases, and I've been a

929
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: civil attorney for a long time. Will me darn if

930
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: I'm going to hire a lawyer that forgets as much

931
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: as this guy does. Yeah, you know, you picked up

932
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 1: what I had written down and I love it and

933
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: I need to have this piece for what I'm doing

934
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,439
Speaker 1: a training class because this is just priceless. So first

935
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: of all, it starts with it's not intentional. So what

936
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: he's basically saying is he knows that they were omitted

937
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: or they were removed, but it wasn't. It was like

938
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: a mishap. Then he goes on to attack the accuser.

939
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 1: These are all right hearings. He attacks the attorney, then

940
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: he uses the qualifier I'm the attorney, right, So then

941
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 1: he goes through his years of education. Then he finishes

942
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: with the collaboration, right, So he needs the other people

943
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: to other people, He needs a collaboration that what he

944
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: had said to the jury. So when you look at these,

945
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: there's all these qualifiers that he uses. But the reason

946
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: I can't recall to my recollection, these are all classic

947
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: one on one deception verbal indicators, and he's using them all.

948
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: That's what it's so mind blowing to me is that

949
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: he should know this. But this goes to show you,

950
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: even someone as narcissistic as he has, every liar is

951
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 1: going to trip up and he has blown it. It's

952
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: perfect as prices. Please give me that clip. It's great. Okay,

953
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: it's all yours, but I insist that we get to

954
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: add on part two overnight. To Jeff Gentry, You've been

955
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 1: in a lot of courtrooms, wearing a lot of different

956
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: hacks as experts. What do he make Would you ever

957
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: put an expert on the stand that kept saying I

958
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't know, I don't recall, I'm not

959
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: sure about that, over and over and over. No, it's

960
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: amazing that his attorneys allow him to keep making those answers.

961
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: Funny story, I was listening to the trial and my

962
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: eleven year old daughter walked by and she goes, Oh,

963
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: that guy looks totally guilty, just the way he's acting,

964
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: the way he's responding. And she goes, watch she even quoted.

965
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: She goes, I bet you he's gonna say next, well,

966
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: I don't really know about that, And sure enough he did. So, yeah,

967
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: he's not answering things. Well, well, here's a problem for

968
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: Alex Murdogu. Another problem for Alex murdog He is trying

969
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: to lie up against technical data. Data doesn't lie. It

970
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:46,959
Speaker 1: can be misinterpreted, but it does not lie including how

971
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: many steps he was taking. Oh yes, down to the

972
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: number of steps. Take a listen to our cut fourteen

973
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: waters questing Murdogue on steps, What were you doing? Run

974
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: on a treadmill? Listen. Both Maggie and Paul's phones lock

975
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: for the final time around eight forty nine. That's what

976
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: the data shows. After that, you agree that Maggie's phone

977
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 1: around eight fifty three shows some steps being taken. It's

978
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: what the data shows, Yes, sir, data don't shows carrying. Ever,

979
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: that's what it chose. Is that correct? That is correct?

980
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: From nine out two to nine oh six, your phone

981
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: finally comes to life and starts showing a lot of steps.

982
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: I do agree with that. What were you doing? I

983
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: was getting ready to go to my mom's house, getting

984
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: ready to go. I thought to take a shower already.

985
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 1: You were just laying down on the couch. What all

986
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: you need to do to get ready to go to

987
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: your mom's house? I don't know. I can't tell you

988
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: exactly what I was doing. And that's far more steps

989
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: in a shorter time period than anytime the prior, as

990
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: you've seen from the testimony in this case. So what

991
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: were you so busy doing? Get on a trademail back

992
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: Not I didn't get on a treadmill dragging place. No

993
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: I didn't jog, No, sir, I did not do jumping.

994
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: Yet I know what I wasn't doing, mister Waters. Okay,

995
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: So it's really hard to lie in the face of

996
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: technical data shown by your phone, by your car, by

997
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: Maggie and Poll's fill phones, by GPS data. It's really

998
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: hard to argue with that. So let me ask you,

999
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: Ronnie Richter, you're the trial strategist. What can he do now?

1000
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: And I don't expect cross example in anytime soon? Oh no,

1001
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: this well is deep, So Craydon's going to be here

1002
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: for quite some time. What can Alex do now? Not

1003
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: a lot. He's kind of pinned himself in the corner here.

1004
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: And although he says, look, I'm a lawyer, I've used

1005
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: cell phone data before that this is not the data

1006
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: that we typically recover. Yeah, we get call loogues and

1007
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: things like that, but there is no way he appreciated

1008
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 1: the depth of the data that's available through on Star,

1009
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: or that that little supercomputer in your hand was tracking

1010
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: that closely all of your movements. Again, you get a

1011
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: circumstance where he had given several accounts to the police.

1012
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: Then he gets the data dump from the state and

1013
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 1: he sees what the evidence really looks like, and he

1014
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: has a hard time backing into his story. What are

1015
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: you doing in the house for two hundred and sixty

1016
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: nine steps and that very critical window of time? How

1017
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: do you not recall that these are huge problems for

1018
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: Alex And again it speaks to the reason why you

1019
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: don't take the stand is he is tying his own

1020
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: rope and walking himself to the gallow the more he talks,

1021
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: and at one point he's referring to what he's said

1022
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: in that initial interview in the cruiser, and he said

1023
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: words to the effect, yeah, I'm married to that. I

1024
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: am wed to that. Yeah he is, He's wed to

1025
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: those statements. Can't get rid of him, guys, I'm hearing

1026
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: him my era. Everyone is heading back into the courtroom. Well,

1027
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: let's see what happens next. Please stay with us, goodbye, everybody,