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Speaker 1: Hey, or hey, if we found a new quark, what

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Speaker 1: would you call it?

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Speaker 2: Pedro or vn? Well, what are the current ones called?

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Speaker 1: Well, there's up, down, charm, strange, top, and bottom.

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Speaker 2: Oh, man, I feel like you can only go up

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 1: You're pretty down on these names. I mean they're pretty strange.

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Speaker 1: I personally find them kind of charming.

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Speaker 2: I guess you do like things that are off color.

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Speaker 1: You might think this whole scheme needs a rewrite from

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Speaker 1: the top.

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Speaker 2: All right, well let's dive in. Bottoms up. Hi, I'm

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Speaker 2: Horae madkerk Doda and the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at U c Irvine, and I hope to one day

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Speaker 1: be involved in a big argument about how to name

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Speaker 1: a new particle.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're not involved yet. I mean, don't you guys

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Speaker 2: name things before you discover them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. We do name hypothetical particles that might

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Speaker 1: not even be part of the universe.

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Speaker 2: Can I lay a stick to that? Like, Hey, if

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Speaker 2: anyone ever discovers a quark in the future, I'm naming

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Speaker 2: it the Whore.

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Speaker 1: I think you can call it whatever you like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: whether it catches on is another question.

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Speaker 2: No, but I said it first. Doesn't that count? Do

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Speaker 2: you have dibbs? In physics?

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Speaker 1: There is no DIBs and physics we even have disagreements

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Speaker 1: about what to name things which go.

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Speaker 2: On for decades. What if I name the the dibbs?

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Speaker 2: It DIBs both. But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel

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Speaker 2: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Where we want to be the first to explain everything

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Speaker 1: about the universe to you, from how all the tiny

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Speaker 1: little particles work, from their interactions to their little bits

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Speaker 1: of matter, to their quantum fields and the way they

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Speaker 1: work together to make everything that's glorious and delicious and

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Speaker 1: badly named in the universe.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because it is a strange and charming universe

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Speaker 2: out there, full of mysteries that we are still discovering.

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Speaker 2: New discoveries are still being made even today about how

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Speaker 2: the universe works and what are all the things in it.

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Speaker 1: One way to answer the question how does the universe

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Speaker 1: work is to figure out what its tiniest bits are

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Speaker 1: and what rules they follow. In some sense, that would

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Speaker 1: be an explanation because it's sort of the most fundamental description.

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Speaker 1: In another sense, it's sort of lacking a lot of

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Speaker 1: connection to reality. Even if you understand the tiny little bits,

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily understand why BlackBerry ice cream is so delicious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's pretty amazing that we've discovered so much

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Speaker 2: about what matter is made out of. Given that we

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Speaker 2: have these kind of soft, squishy eyeballs, it really don't

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Speaker 2: work all that well. All the time, we have augmented

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Speaker 2: our bare senses with all sorts of amazing technological eyeballs,

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Speaker 2: things that can gather ancient photons while orbiting the Earth,

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Speaker 2: and devices that poke and probe little bits of matter

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Speaker 2: to reveal their structure, or even as simple as reading glasses,

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Speaker 2: which I forgot today to bring. So that's why I'm

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Speaker 2: only about eighty percent sure of what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 1: Is that up from usual seventy five percent?

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Speaker 2: I guess, I mean eighty percent sure? What's on this

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Speaker 2: page in front of me?

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Speaker 1: I see? Well, you know, I think we've been working

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Speaker 1: together for more than a decade before I even learned

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Speaker 1: that you wore glasses.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I only just started wearing reading glasses maybe

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Speaker 2: a year or two ago. It came pretty fast.

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Speaker 1: I see. So you're saying, after ten years of working

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Speaker 1: with Daniel, you're incurring actual physical damage. That's right.

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Speaker 2: I al was talking about tiny microscopic particles. I mean

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Speaker 2: that would ruin anyone's eyesight.

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Speaker 1: All right, there you have it, folks, a health warning

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Speaker 1: for this podcast. We're five years in, which means you're

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Speaker 1: all five years away from ruining your eyesight.

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Speaker 2: M well, I did worse glasses for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Then I got laser surgery, which is amazing. But now

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Speaker 2: I'm getting older any reading glasses, which totally stinks. You

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Speaker 2: haven't hit that wall yet.

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Speaker 1: I've been wearing glasses since I was a teenager, and

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely not getting my eyeballs lasered. Oh no, but.

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Speaker 2: Aren't you physicists? Don't you trust the lasers.

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Speaker 1: I'm a physicist, so I definitely don't trust the lasers.

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Speaker 2: What have they made a lazing operation that? Did you

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Speaker 2: see subpotomic particles?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy? Yeah? Well, I would definitely volunteer other people

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Speaker 1: for it and ask them all sorts of questions about it.

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Speaker 2: Really, you wouldn't want to see particles with your naked eye.

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Speaker 1: No, I prefer augmented technological eyeballs, and to keep my

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Speaker 1: eyeballs unaltered.

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Speaker 2: I want to see here, like take a picture.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, build me device, put the picture on a screen.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy with that.

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Speaker 2: But anyways, it would be amazing to see at that

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Speaker 2: microscopic level because we would discover maybe what matter is

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Speaker 2: actually made out of.

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Speaker 1: And we have made a lot of progress over the

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Speaker 1: years and figuring out what the tiny little bits are

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Speaker 1: that click together to explain our world and what the

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Speaker 1: tiny bits inside those bits are and how they work together.

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Speaker 1: But there are still lots and lots of questions, not

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Speaker 1: just questions about the crazy weird particles we may or

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Speaker 1: may not discover as colliders, but questions about what you

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Speaker 1: and I are actually made out of.

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Speaker 2: That's right, It's been a long road to discover the

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Speaker 2: building blocks of stuff around us. We started with tiny

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Speaker 2: hypothetical particles made out of earth, wind and fire, right,

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Speaker 2: That's how the Greeks started, and then we moved on

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Speaker 2: to atoms.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if the Greeks thought about like wind

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Speaker 1: particles and fire particles. They had lots of different crazy

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Speaker 1: ideas about how the universe works. But yeah, you can

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Speaker 1: do di dot from there to quiet Field theory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I isn't know what zoos is. Isn't zoos basically

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Speaker 2: like a particle, the lightning particle.

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Speaker 1: The Zeus particle. And I don't think I've ever heard

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Speaker 1: that phrase before. That sounds like a really awesome young

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Speaker 1: adult thriller.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like what we should name the next next

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Speaker 2: particle I discover, or that I propose we discovered.

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Speaker 1: Well, some people do call the Higgs boson the god particles,

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Speaker 1: so maybe we should just broaden that, you know, we

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Speaker 1: should have the Jehovah particle.

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Speaker 2: And that's right, be more inclusive about all religions.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: But it has been a pretty amazing road to discover

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Speaker 2: what things are made of. And at some point, I

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Speaker 2: guess people discovered that we're made out of atoms, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. That's the first step, and it's in

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Speaker 1: some ways the most amazing, the most incredible, the biggest

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Speaker 1: sort of intellectual leap. They say that all the craziness

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Speaker 1: in the universe, the almost infinite variety of stuff out there,

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Speaker 1: can be explained with a small set of basic building blocks,

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Speaker 1: the atoms. The about one hundred elements of the periodic

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Speaker 1: table can be put together in all sorts of ways

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Speaker 1: to explain everything that we've ever seen. Like philosophically, it's

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Speaker 1: not obvious that we would have to live in a

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Speaker 1: universe that works that way, where the arrangements of the

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Speaker 1: smallest bits explain the complexity that we experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it could have been that we lived

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Speaker 2: in a universe where everything was made out of earth,

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Speaker 2: wind and fire, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Or everything could have been made out of its

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Speaker 1: own different kind of stuff. Everything out there in the

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Speaker 1: universe could have had its own elemental particle that explains it.

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Speaker 1: But instead it seems like as you dig deeper and

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Speaker 1: deeper into the firmament of the universe, things weirdly get simpler.

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Speaker 2: And so we cracked open matter to discoverage made out

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Speaker 2: of atoms, and then at some point we cracked open

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Speaker 2: the atom to find out that it's made out of

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Speaker 2: smaller particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the nucleus has protons and neutrons, and then surrounding

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Speaker 1: those are electrons, and those protons and neutrons themselves, we

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Speaker 1: discovered are also not fundamental bits of the universe. They

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Speaker 1: are made of even smaller particles bound together with an

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Speaker 1: incredibly powerful force.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so we have a name for those particles.

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Speaker 2: They're called quarks, and we think we know maybe what

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Speaker 2: all the quarks are.

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Speaker 1: We think we know, maybe that's definitely a good summary

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Speaker 1: of the physics of basically anything.

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Speaker 2: We think we know that maybe basic size, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: Or really that's just human reality and anything that's out there.

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Speaker 2: We just think we know it's there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and at a comma, maybe at the end and

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Speaker 1: you're golden or.

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Speaker 2: Or a question mark.

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Speaker 1: But the story isn't over.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, And so.

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Speaker 1: You've probably been told a familiar story about how the

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Speaker 1: proton is made out of two different quarks, the upquark

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Speaker 1: and the down but that's not the end of the story, Comma.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it never is. Yeah, there might be only two

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Speaker 2: kinds of quarks inside of the proton, but is that

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Speaker 2: really the case? And so to the on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: we'll be tackling the question are there quarks inside the proton?

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Speaker 2: Are we basically asking if the proton is charming?

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Speaker 1: We're asking about it's chat Yeah, is it good at

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Speaker 1: having conversations or is it kind of dull?

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Speaker 2: Does it have riz? Is a proton? Rizzy?

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Speaker 1: Should you take a proton out with you on Friday night?

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Speaker 1: To be your wingman or wing woman, that's.

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Speaker 2: Right, or would it be too charming? You don't want

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Speaker 2: you don't want that? Yeah, as your wingman or wing particle.

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Speaker 1: We are in our desperate efforts to be relevant to

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Speaker 1: modern culture here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or to pretend we're young and still go out

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Speaker 2: on Friday nights. I mean, come on, let's face it,

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Speaker 2: my Friday nights are and do not involve putting on

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Speaker 2: anything besides pajama.

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Speaker 1: Let me just squint through my reading glasses to read

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Speaker 1: the latest slaying the youth for saying that.

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Speaker 2: Like charisma.

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Speaker 1: Oh is that what riz is short for?

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Speaker 2: I was wondering, Oh man, you're even worse than me.

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Speaker 2: I guess you are older than.

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Speaker 1: Me, am. I I'm rounding up to fifty for sure.

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Speaker 2: So well, I guess it's it's charmed, the same as

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Speaker 2: charisma sort of.

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Speaker 1: How would you shorten charm harm arm arm?

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Speaker 2: Obviously? I mean I think we all associate cham with charm.

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Speaker 1: And when I heard that word before cham about what

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Speaker 1: is that? Can't place it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, pretty soon all the kids will say, like,

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Speaker 2: oh man, that that kid really has cham.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he's so chamming, he's a champion, that's right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: with a cham pion. There you go. You are a

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Speaker 1: particle a man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, you brought it back around to particle physics. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the Champion, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, it's already a particle name after you, and.

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Speaker 2: I hear it's the best one. It's like it beat

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Speaker 2: out all the other particles. All right, Well, this is

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Speaker 2: an interesting question. Are there charm forks inside the proton? Well,

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Speaker 2: first of all, I feel like maybe not a lot

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Speaker 2: of people know the conventional wisdom, which is that there

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Speaker 2: are only two of the other kinds of quarks in

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Speaker 2: the proton.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The story you're usually told is that the proton

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Speaker 1: is made of just two kinds of quarks, the upquark

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Speaker 1: and the down quark. These are the lightest quarks that

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Speaker 1: exist out there, the ones that are stable and usually

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Speaker 1: seen as the basic building blocks of matter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so the question is is there a third

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Speaker 2: kind of quark inside the proton? And is it charming

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Speaker 2: or is it kind of an annoying quark?

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Speaker 1: Is the whole thing kind of strange?

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Speaker 2: All right? Well, as usually, we were wondering how many

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Speaker 2: people out there had thought about this question or wondered

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Speaker 2: what exactly is inside the proton?

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much to everybody who participates in this segment.

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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear your voice on the podcast, so

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Speaker 1: please write to me. Get over that barrier that's been

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Speaker 1: preventing you from participating, and send me an email to

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Speaker 1: questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. Do you think

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Speaker 2: the proton is charming? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 1: Is positively charged. I think something charming, it's positive Yes.

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Speaker 3: I believe that a proton is made up of up

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Speaker 3: quarks and down quarks, so I'm going to say no

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Speaker 3: to the charm quark.

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Speaker 4: I like the sound of charm quarks. I'm picturing that

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Speaker 4: character from Star Trek now as he's trying to do

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Speaker 4: a deal. That's a charm quark. I'm not sure what

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Speaker 4: a charm quark is, but if there were quarks, there

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Speaker 4: are up quarks and down quarks inside the proton, right,

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Speaker 4: So I would say that if there are quarks, they're

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Speaker 4: inside a proton. So yes, there are charm quarks inside

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Speaker 4: the proton, and I look forward to learning exactly what

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Speaker 4: a charm quark is.

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Speaker 2: All right, some interesting ideas here, little Star Trek reference here,

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Speaker 2: that was a star trek T andg reference.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I'm pretty sure quark only peer in the

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Speaker 1: next generation and he is kind of charming.

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Speaker 3: Mmmm.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, most people seem positive that the proton

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Speaker 2: is charming, although there was one person who said.

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Speaker 1: No, Yeah, some people have heard the story that protons

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Speaker 1: are just made of up quarks and down quarks.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, let's dig into it, Danielle. Maybe start

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Speaker 2: with the basics. What is a quark and what is

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Speaker 2: a charming one, and what is it not charming quark?

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Speaker 1: So, quarks are the particles that we see inside the

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Speaker 1: proton and inside the neutron, and also inside a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other particles that we've seen in collisions and in

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Speaker 1: cosmic rays, like chaons and pions and other particles that

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Speaker 1: are not stable. But when you smash these particles together,

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Speaker 1: you discover that there really are smaller bits inside of them,

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Speaker 1: and those are the particles we call quarks.

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Speaker 2: How are quarks named, by the way.

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Speaker 1: How are the individual quarks named? Or how is the

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Speaker 1: word quark invented?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Like, how did they come up with the word quark?

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Speaker 2: Like it sounds kind of quirky? Was that a real

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Speaker 2: before that they discovered the particle or did they invent

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Speaker 2: any word?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a really interesting story. Quark actually is

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Speaker 1: a thing out there in the world. It's like a

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Speaker 1: yogurty thing that is eaten in Germany and other parts

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Speaker 1: of Europe. But in English, quarks were named by Murray Gellman,

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Speaker 1: and he actually took the word from a James Joyce

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Speaker 1: poem Finnigan's Wake, where it says three quarks from master Mark.

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Speaker 2: What did James Joyce mean by it?

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Speaker 1: Well, there's some debate, of course, because James Joyce is

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Speaker 1: a poet and so they never like use words in

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Speaker 1: the ways that people expect.

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Speaker 2: Meaning it was a typo, maybe.

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Speaker 1: A genius typo, who knows. But the word quark here

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Speaker 1: is like a variation of the word croak, and so

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Speaker 1: the line in the poem is about like cheering the king.

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Speaker 1: Three quarks from mister Mark is like three croaks or

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Speaker 1: three cheers.

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Speaker 2: And so the person who discovered these particles picked that

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Speaker 2: because he thought there were three particles or why did

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Speaker 2: they pick that word out of that poem.

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Speaker 1: He's got a long story for why he pick this,

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Speaker 1: but essentially it comes down to the fact that there

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Speaker 1: were three of them at the time, at the time

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Speaker 1: that he was coming up with a name for it,

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Speaker 1: we thought that there were three different kinds of quarks,

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Speaker 1: the up, the down, and the strange, and so he

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Speaker 1: was looking for something connected to three.

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Speaker 2: And by three, you mean like, you know, the more

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Speaker 2: you do these collisions and you explore what matter is

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Speaker 2: made out of, you find three different flavors of these particles.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, there's three different kinds of these particles that

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Speaker 1: were initially identified. And it comes out of this era

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Speaker 1: in particle physics called the particle Zoo, when we turned

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Speaker 1: on colliders, smashed protons into stuff and saw all sorts

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Speaker 1: of weird particles come out. When we saw pions, we

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Speaker 1: saw chaons, we saw mega particles, we saw row particles. Basically,

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Speaker 1: every time you turned on the collider and added a

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Speaker 1: bit more energy, you saw new stuff come out. And

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Speaker 1: so it was a very confusing time in particle physics,

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Speaker 1: like what are all these particles? Are they all made

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Speaker 1: from the same thing? Are they all their own different

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Speaker 1: kind of thing? And quarks was an effort to unify that,

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Speaker 1: to explain it. Murray Gelmon and other folks realized that

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Speaker 1: with just three basic particles, the upcork, the down cork,

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Speaker 1: and the strange quark. You could explain all the particles

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Speaker 1: zoo is just being different combinations of these three basic

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Speaker 1: building blocks. The same way you can explain like everything

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Speaker 1: we experience in terms of one hundred elements. They were

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Speaker 1: able to explain all of the elements of the particle

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Speaker 1: Zoo in terms of these just three basic building blocks.

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Speaker 2: Like maybe you could say, like a iron is not

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Speaker 2: like a totally different particle than oxygen or carbon. It's

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Speaker 2: just like they're just made of different arrangements of the

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Speaker 2: same particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can make any element with a certain

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Speaker 1: number of protons and neutrons and electrons. Right, there's really

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Speaker 1: only three building blocks there that explain all of that complexity.

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Speaker 1: In the same way you can make pions out of

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Speaker 1: an upcork and an anti upcork, you can make chaons

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Speaker 1: if you mix in some strange quarks. You can make

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Speaker 1: protons out of three quarks. You can make neutrons out

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Speaker 1: of three quarks. And so they were able to explain

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Speaker 1: all of this complexity using three basic building blocks, and

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Speaker 1: they were even able to predict the existence of particles

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Speaker 1: we hadn't seen yet. They said, if you mix all

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Speaker 1: these particles together, there's one way to mix them that

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Speaker 1: nobody's seen yet. And they predicted that that particle existed,

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Speaker 1: and then they saw it, and so that's what really

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Speaker 1: convinced everybody that it was real.

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Speaker 2: What was it called?

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Speaker 1: So it was the omega minus particle, which was made

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Speaker 1: out of three strange quarks, and it was actually Gelman

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Speaker 1: predicted it. He stood up at a conference and made

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Speaker 1: this prediction, which is sort of ballsy, and then it

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Speaker 1: was observed and people believe that they were real.

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Speaker 2: Now the corks were hypothetical or do we eventually see

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Speaker 2: them individually like at a collider?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. For a long time, people believe the

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Speaker 1: math of these quarks and they said, all right, well

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Speaker 1: the math works, but they're kind of hypothetical. But then

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Speaker 1: there was sort of a philosophical debate about whether they're

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Speaker 1: real or hypothetical because you can't actually see them by themselves.

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Speaker 2: You cannot you.

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Speaker 1: Cannot ever see a quark by itself. Yeah. The quarks

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Speaker 1: feel this strong force, which is much stronger than electromagnetism,

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Speaker 1: for example, and they're so tight bound together. There's so

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Speaker 1: much energy in their interaction. If you pull them apart.

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Speaker 1: That energy creates more quarks basically to shield it. It's

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Speaker 1: such a powerful force that it always neutralizes itself the

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Speaker 1: same way like lightning is neutralizing any charge difference between

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Speaker 1: the ground and clouds. Because electromagntism is so powerful, the

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Speaker 1: strong force does that as well, very very rapidly. So

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Speaker 1: quarks can never be seen on their own. You can

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Speaker 1: only ever see them put together in these various combinations.

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Speaker 2: WHOA, So, then what makes you think that's an individual particle?

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Speaker 2: Like if you never see some it alone, how do

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Speaker 2: you know it's like a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great philosophical question, and you can actually

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Speaker 1: ask the same question of basically anything. You could even

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Speaker 1: ask that question of the electron, Like we never see

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Speaker 1: the electron by itself. An electron is actually surrounded by

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Speaker 1: a cloud of virtual particles, including lots of photons. You

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Speaker 1: never actually probe the pure individual electron. So everything is

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Speaker 1: just sort of like part of the fabric of reality.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a philosophical question, and you declare

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Speaker 1: that it's real. We have these models, we do these calculations.

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Speaker 1: They're accurate, they predict the results of experiments, and so

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Speaker 1: we think that probably they're real, But you know, we

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Speaker 1: could be totally wrong. The whole story we're telling about

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Speaker 1: the nature of the universe and how particles work could

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Speaker 1: also just be totally wrong. The whole thing could just

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Speaker 1: be an elaborate mathematical tool that mostly works. So it's

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Speaker 1: actually a pretty subtle philosophical question what's real out there

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Speaker 1: and what's just sort of part of the story we're telling.

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Speaker 2: Well, you mean, we only actually think the quirk exists.

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Speaker 2: Dot dot maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, dot dot maybe, But there are some very powerful

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Speaker 1: arguments that at least it's the right way to think

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Speaker 1: about the universe. Whether it's like philosophically true and out

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Speaker 1: there is sort of another question I see.

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Speaker 2: It could be maybe like a non particle or some

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Speaker 2: sort of weird thing that we can grasp our heads around.

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Speaker 1: It could be that there's another way to think of

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Speaker 1: what's inside these particles that works better. Because one problem

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Speaker 1: we have is that the strong force is so powerful

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult to make calculations with. Like, you get

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Speaker 1: things a little bit wrong, and the power of the

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Speaker 1: force makes things very very wrong, So it's very difficult

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Speaker 1: to make predictions with Unlike electromagnetism, where we can make

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Speaker 1: very very precise predictions about exactly what happens when two

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Speaker 1: electrons bounce off each other, when two quarks collide, it's

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Speaker 1: a huge mess, and we don't know how to do

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Speaker 1: those calculations very well. So that might be a sign

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Speaker 1: that we have it like the wrong idea. Maybe when

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Speaker 1: aliens come, they'll have a better theory for what's going

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Speaker 1: on inside all these particles, and it's just much simpler

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Speaker 1: and crisper, and the mathematics of it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's get into which quarks, if they

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Speaker 2: do exist, are in the proton, and why we think

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Speaker 2: the produc may or may not be charming. So let's

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Speaker 2: dig into that, but first let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: All right, we're talking about whether there are charm quarks

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Speaker 2: inside the proton. That's the I guess, the question on

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Speaker 2: every once minds these days.

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Speaker 1: You know, you joke, but it's actually a hot topic

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Speaker 1: that's been debated in particle physics for it literally decades,

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Speaker 1: whether the proton has charm in it or whether it's

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Speaker 1: just made of ups and.

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Speaker 2: Downs, That's what I mean. It's like it's on everyone's mind, right.

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Speaker 1: And it's been a question basically since the charm cork

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Speaker 1: was discovered. I mean you ask about, like, why do

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Speaker 1: we think that quarks are real? I think the moment

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Speaker 1: that the whole community went from these are cute, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know to yeah, these are real was this

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Speaker 1: day in November in nineteen seventy four, when the charm

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Speaker 1: cork was discovered.

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Speaker 2: What happened.

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Speaker 1: It's called the November Revolution because it's so dramatic, and

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Speaker 1: this is the moment when the charm cork was shown

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Speaker 1: to be real. Experiments declared the discovery of the charm

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Speaker 1: cork because the picture of having only three quarks, the up,

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Speaker 1: the down, and the strange was a little weird, like

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Speaker 1: the up and the down are sort of paired together.

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Speaker 1: The strange cork is a lot like the down cork.

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Speaker 1: It has the same electric charge or whatever, sort of

441
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: like a cuss of the down cork. And people were wondering, like,

442
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: is there a cousin of the upcork? Shouldn't the upcork

443
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: also have a cousin? Shouldn't there be like patterns and

444
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: symmetries and balance on all that stuff. So people predicted, Okay,

445
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: this cork should exist out there. If these are real

446
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: there should be another one, and so people were looking

447
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: for this cork. And they were actually two competing groups,

448
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: one at MIT led by Sam King and another one

449
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: at Stanford led by Burt Richter, both looking for the

450
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 1: charm cork, and they declared discovery of the charm cork

451
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: on the same day in dueling press conferences across the

452
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: country from each other, and they gave the particle. The

453
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 1: charm cork makes different names.

454
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 2: What what did they name them?

455
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: So the charm cork combines with an anti charm cork

456
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: to make this particle. Sam Ting called it the J particle.

457
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: Apparently J is sort of similar to the character for

458
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: his name in Chinese. Bert Richter called it the Si

459
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: particle because he liked Greek names for particles. And so

460
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: the same day we had a new particle given two

461
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: different names that Jay and lipsidh.

462
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: M like at the exact same minute, don't they doesn't

463
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: count like which minute you make the announcement.

464
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: In the Internet era, it does kind of matter. People

465
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: like time their papers to try to get them on

466
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: the archive at the top of the list on the

467
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: first day or whatever to avoid being scooped. But I

468
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: think back then the resolution of this stuff was more

469
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,239
Speaker 1: like dependent on like sending letters and mail, So if

470
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: you made your announcements on the same day, counts as

471
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: two independent discoveries that are basically simultaneous. But there is

472
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: a lot of drama about how they happened to make

473
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: these discoveries on the same day because Sam King's experiment

474
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: was very slow. He was going to take like a

475
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: year to figure this stuff out, but he didn't have

476
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: to know where to look. It was like a very

477
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: general kind of experiment. Bert Richter could discover this thing

478
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: in like a few hours if somebody told him exactly

479
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: where to look. And Richter did an initial skin and

480
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 1: didn't see it. He sort of like accidentally skipped over it.

481
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: And the story is like maybe somebody on Sam King's

482
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: team tipped off Bert Richter and told him exactly where

483
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: to look so that he could do the experiment and

484
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: coming with a discovery at exactly the same moment as

485
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: the MIT team. Nobody knows for sure what happened.

486
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: Like I kinda make espionage, yeah or something.

487
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of crazy stories, some of which are

488
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: not safe for podcasting, which you can google and hear about.

489
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: But to this day we have not settled.

490
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 2: This not safe for podcasting. How solacious is this story?

491
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: There are stories about scatological sabotage of various experiments.

492
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: What you mean involving bodily fluids, Yes, exactly, M. I

493
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: think that's safe for podcasting, but maybe I'm not desirable

494
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: talk about in a podcast.

495
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: It just sees to show you that there's sort of

496
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: high drama, and you know, Nobel prizes were on the line.

497
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: In the end, both of these guys won the Nobel Prize.

498
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: They shared it for the discovery of this particle. Two

499
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: charm quarks bound together. And we still call the particle

500
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: j SI. We give it both names because we couldn't

501
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 1: figure out how to settle this dispute.

502
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: And so this is the moment you're saying that the

503
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: charm cork was discovered. Because this particle is made out

504
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: of two charm corks. What made them think it was

505
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 2: made out of two charm quarks?

506
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: It has all the properties that they predicted if the

507
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: charm cork exists, they predicted that it would form this particle,

508
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: which has about twice the mass of an individual charm cork,

509
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: and it would decay in certain ways and the angles

510
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: of those decays, so it basically looked exactly like what

511
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: they expected, and there's no other way to explain this particle.

512
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: And they can't explain this particle with just upquarks, down

513
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: quarks and strange quarks. So that told them, ah, there

514
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: must be this new quark out there, and that made

515
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: people feel like, Okay, quarks are real because we've predicted

516
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: a quark and then seen it. It's not just descriptive.

517
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: It's not like we're just using it to tell a

518
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: story about what we've already seen. It's helping us understand

519
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: future experiments.

520
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: All right. So that's how we discovered the charm cork.

521
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 2: Now I guess the question is is there one inside

522
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 2: the proton?

523
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: So the simple story is no. I mean, this initial

524
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: description of quarks as the building blocks of all these

525
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: weird particles tell us that the proton is made of

526
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 1: two upquarks and one down cork, and that works because

527
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: the math is really weird for these particles. Like an

528
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: upcork has charged two thirds, like an electron is charged

529
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: minus one An upcork has charged two thirds, it's like

530
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: fractionally charged, and the down cork has charged minus one third.

531
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: So you add up two upquarks, you did four thirds

532
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: of a charge. You add a down cork and it

533
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: brings it back down to plus one. So the proton

534
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: is explained in terms of two upcorks and a down cork,

535
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 1: and that's a nice simple story, but like everything else

536
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: in physics, there's always more to it.

537
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: Now is that the only difference between an upcork and

538
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: a down cork is there electrical charge.

539
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: They're also difference in mass. The upcork is lower mass

540
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: than the down cork, and they have differences in their

541
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: other charges. Remember, the electrical charge is how we talk

542
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: about the electromagnetic interaction. Things that have electrical charge interact electromagnetically.

543
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: Things that don't don't interact electromagnetically, like a new trino

544
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: no electric charge. No electromagnetic interaction ignores electric fields. But

545
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: particles have other kinds of charges, Like if you feel

546
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: the weak force, you have weak charges, and the weak

547
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: force is very complicated. It has two different kinds of charge.

548
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: So the upcork and the down cork are different also

549
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: in their weak charges how they interact with the weak field.

550
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: And so then the charm cork is just like an

551
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: upcorek just heavier or why do you call it a

552
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 2: cousin of the upcork.

553
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it has all the same charges as the upcork.

554
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: It's charged two thirds electromagnetically, it has the same spin

555
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: as the upcork. It has the same weak charges as

556
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: the upquirk. So if you make like a periodic table

557
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: of the fundamental particles, it just makes sense to put

558
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: the charm there next to the upcork, the way the

559
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: strange is next to the down cork. Because the down

560
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: and the strange they have all the same electrical charges

561
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: and the weak charges, and so these particles are very

562
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: similar to each other except their difference in.

563
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: Mass, meaning that it just has more mass an quark

564
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: but just heavier.

565
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an upcork, but just heavier. And that's explained,

566
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: of course, because of its interactions with the Higgs boson.

567
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 1: The charm interacts more with the Higgs field, and so

568
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: it has more mass than the upcork, and not by

569
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: a little bit. It has like six hundred times the

570
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: mass of the upcork. It's actually more massive than the proton.

571
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so then you're saying that the question of whether

572
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: there are charm quarks inside the proton. The answer is no,

573
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: maybe question mark, So why the no.

574
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: So the simplest story is just like you've got three quarks,

575
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: You're done. But think about how those quarks are actually

576
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: stuck together. How do quarks come together to make a proton.

577
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: They don't like physically click together like pieces of a puzzle.

578
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: They're bound together. There's a force that holds them together

579
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: the same way they like a proton and an electron

580
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: together make a hydrogen atom because of the electromagnetic force.

581
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: The quarks are bound together with the strong force, which

582
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: means that there's a bunch of gluons there also inside

583
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: the proton. So the proton is like two up quarks

584
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: in a day and a zillion gluons in between them.

585
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: So already we know there is a little bit more

586
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: to the proton than just the quarks.

587
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: M I guess maybe I'm getting a little confused because

588
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: a proton, you said, is two up quarks and a

589
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: down courek, and a neutron, for example, is two down

590
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: quarks and one upquark. Yes, so it's sort of like

591
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: the same, but you just switch one.

592
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: Of the quarks exactly. And that's why beta de cave

593
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: requires just switching one down or up or back and forth.

594
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: M Okay. So now we're asking if the proton has

595
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: a different kind of quark in it. But if we

596
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: change the quarks in a proton, it wouldn't be a

597
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: proton anymore, would it.

598
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: A proton is a proton is a proton. That's just

599
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: the thing we find in nature. The question is what's

600
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: in it. It might be that the proton's innerds are

601
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: different from what we've been describing. For a while, our

602
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: story might have been a little bit wrong. So if

603
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: there are charm quarks also inside a proton, then that's

604
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: what a proton is. We're not talking about replacing one

605
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 1: of the upwork with a charm We're asking if there

606
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: are more quarks in there, if it's not just up,

607
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: up and down, if there's extra other little bits in there.

608
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, Like a proton is still proton with

609
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: two up quarks and a down quark. But like, maybe

610
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: is there a charm cork jammed in there somehow? Yeah,

611
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: we haven't seen before.

612
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, exactly are there like little bits quantum mechanically

613
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: of charm cork hanging out in there?

614
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: Okay? And this is the burning question in particle physics, Now,

615
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: why do you even have this question? Why? Why do

616
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: you think there might be charm quarks inside the proton?

617
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: Well, we're always just curious, like what is stuff made

618
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: out of? We want to know definitively, like what is

619
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: a proton? Because the proton's the basic building block of

620
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: everything out there in the universe. When the universe cooled

621
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: and stuff slowed down, this is what it decided to make,

622
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: mostly protons. So, like you want to know the answer

623
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: to the question, how does our universe work? What's it

624
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: made out of? You got to understand the proton, and

625
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: so we're always happy with the first answer, But then

626
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: we want to dig deeper and say is that the

627
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: total story? Is there more going on to the proton?

628
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: And then there are hints, there are hints that maybe

629
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: there is something else. And one of the hints is

630
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: that we know that the glue between those particles has

631
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: the capacity to make more quarks. Like those gluons we

632
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: talked about that stick the upcorks and down corks together.

633
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: They don't just hang out and stay gluons. Sometimes they

634
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: turn it to quarks and then back. So you could

635
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: have a gluon in the proton that's flying around. All

636
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: of a sudden it turns into a bottom cork and

637
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: an anti bottom cork, and then back into a gluon.

638
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: So if you shoot a probe at a proton, sometimes

639
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: you hit the main quarks, the upcorks and the down quarks.

640
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes you hit a gluon. Sometimes you hit a bottom cork.

641
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: Sometimes you hit a charm cork, sometimes you hit a

642
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: top cork. It's a big frothing mess.

643
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: It sounds like it did sort of like quantum mechanical magic,

644
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: where there's like an infinite number of particles popping into

645
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: existence probabilistically. But we still say that the proton is

646
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: made out of three quarks, right, then those are more

647
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: real than the other imaginary quarks.

648
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are the intrinsic quarks. We say the two

649
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: upcork and the down cork are like the building block

650
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: of the proton because they're there all the time, right,

651
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: they're just always part of the proton. They sort of

652
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: define what the proton is. And we know that the

653
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: gluons that they're slashing around and that, as you say,

654
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: quantum mechanically, sometimes if you poke into them they can

655
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: be turning into something else and you caught them in

656
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: the act, and maybe you can interact with that particle.

657
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: But we think about those as like extrinsic particles. We

658
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: don't think of those as necessarily part of the proton itself,

659
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: because the energy to create those and to make that

660
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: interaction happen comes from the collision, Like you want to

661
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 1: smash two protons together to see what's inside and to

662
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: interact with those gluons. Then the energy to make like

663
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: the bottom cork or whatever else other weird quarks you're

664
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: talking about, comes from the energy you've put in. And

665
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: so we're interested in more deeply the question like what's

666
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: the proton itself made out of? And so this is

667
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: the question people have been asking, like, when a proton

668
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: is just sitting there by itself, does it also still

669
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: have some charm cork in it?

670
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 4: So?

671
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: Wait, are you asking whether the proton has in addition

672
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: to the up, up and down as intrinsic quarks, does

673
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 2: it also have an intrinsic charm cork to it?

674
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: Yes?

675
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: Are you asking whether it has a lot of extrinsic

676
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: charm forks in it?

677
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: We already know it has a lot of extrinsic charm corks,

678
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: like it has extrinsic everything, because the gluons have so

679
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: much energy and if you interact with them, they can

680
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: basically make anything. We're asking whether it has intrinsic charm cork,

681
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: Like when a proton is just sitting there, does it

682
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: also actually have some charm cork in it? And that's

683
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: conception a little hard to get your mind around, because like,

684
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: what does that mean. We're talking about these three particles

685
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: make up the quark, right, Remember that everything we're talking

686
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: about is quantum mechanical, and so really we're talking about

687
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: making the picture of the proton a little bit more complicated,

688
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: not just like there are three particles, but like there

689
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: are more options here. Sometimes it has two upquarks in

690
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: a down Sometimes one of those is a charm cork.

691
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes one of those is an upcark. Sometimes one of

692
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: those is a down cork. A little bit more of

693
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: a complicated mixture of these particles. If there is intrinsic

694
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: charm in the proton.

695
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: Hmm okay, So you're sort of saying, like, if we

696
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: have the picture that it's made out of two upquarks

697
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 2: and when it down quark, but maybe the picture is

698
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: more like it's changing all the time, like maybe the

699
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 2: proton is transforming inside of itself into different combinations of quarks.

700
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And so people have been trying to answer

701
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 1: this question for a long time. They've been doing it

702
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: the only way that we know how, which is to

703
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: try to break open the proton, throw other protons at it,

704
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: or throw electrons add it, smash something into it. It's

705
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: tricky though, because you want to distinguish between the scenario

706
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: where like the proton has intrinsic charm quarks in it,

707
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, like the internals of it is like changing

708
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: back and forth from upquarks to charm quarks, or you're

709
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: creating charmqirks when you collide. You're manufacturing these extrinsic charm

710
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 1: quirks in the process of probing it. It's been a

711
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: very difficult set of experiments to do to distinguish between

712
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: the charm quarks we see in the proto are they

713
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: intrinsic or are they extrinsic? Not an easy experiment.

714
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: Mmmm, all right, Well, let's dig into the details of

715
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: this experiment and what it tells us about what's really

716
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: inside a proton or what a proton really is actually

717
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: made out of So let's dig into that. But first

718
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 2: let's take another quick break. All right, we're asking what's

719
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: really inside the proton? Is it just two up quarks

720
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: and a down quark as we've been told, or as

721
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: you and I have been telling people for years now. Daniel,

722
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,720
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe you're now calling his liars because

723
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: it turns out that maybe the question of whether there's

724
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: more to the proton than just these quarks, like maybe

725
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 2: it's insides are changing all the time, from two up

726
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: quarks and downcork to something else which involves another kind

727
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: of cork, the trump part.

728
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: I think everything we've been telling people for years has

729
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: an implicit comma maybe dot dot dot at the end

730
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: of it.

731
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: I feel like, if you wanted to make that explicit,

732
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 2: maybe we should make it more explicit than you. We

733
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: wis should rename the podcast Daniel and Jore Explain the

734
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: Universe dot dot dot.

735
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, it's just part of our scientific storytelling

736
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: or always trying to come up with a way to

737
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: describe the universe and then figuring out, oh, that doesn't

738
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: actually capture all the details. Let's add some bells and

739
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: whistles or let's simplify it. Well, let's throw the whole

740
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: thing out and explain it in another way. It's just

741
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: part of the journey.

742
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like maybe all this time you

743
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: could have just added, like we think that this is

744
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: what it's made out of, not like I feel like

745
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: for years have been saying, oh, yes, the proton is

746
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: made out of two upcourse into the un cord, like

747
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: that's a fact, but maybe it's not.

748
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: Well, you know, when you're introducing people to really weird

749
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: complex topics, you have to do it bit by bid.

750
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: And if you start with all the qualifiers, all the

751
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: reasons why don't understand it, they're never going to get

752
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: to the things we think we maybe do understand.

753
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: I think people can handle scientists think or we think

754
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 2: it's made out of this.

755
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: I guess I feel like that's implied with everything that

756
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: comes out of my mouth. Anyway, for now on, listeners,

757
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: insert a scientist think in front of everything. You hear

758
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: me say, that's right.

759
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: Maybe we should have like one of those quick read

760
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: disclaimers at the end of each episode, like Daniel Horry explained,

761
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: the universe has not been verified by the FDA or

762
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: a valid international physics organization.

763
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: Even valid international physics organizations. They just think stuff. Man,

764
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: they can be wrong.

765
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: Well, some things are more verified by experiments than others.

766
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, that's true, and that's what we're trying

767
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: to capture here in the podcast, the current mainstream thinking

768
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: for how the universe works.

769
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: All right, well, I guess we'll tell Coreyer engineer to

770
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: just add that disclaimer at the end of every episode

771
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: from now and retroactively. Maybe also, can you do that?

772
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: You know, maybe we've been deceiving people for five years, Daniel.

773
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 1: Well, you know, they got to stick around for the twist.

774
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: The twist where we revealed that we liked.

775
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: These are approximations.

776
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: They're not lying, I see, the betrayal.

777
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: Good faith explanations.

778
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: All right, So the idea is that the proton is

779
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: mostly mind to up quarks and a down cork. But

780
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: maybe you think there's a possibility that that changes sometimes. Yeah,

781
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: And so you're saying, first you said, the simple answer

782
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 2: is that no, there's no charm cork in the proton.

783
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 2: Why was that No?

784
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: Again, that's just the sort of simplest answer, and it's

785
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: also short of common sense. The charm cork has more

786
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: mass than the proton. So it's sort of like saying

787
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: that the proton is less than the sum of its

788
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: parts if it has like a little bit of charm

789
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: cork in.

790
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 2: It, meaning like it's mostly two ups and quarks in

791
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 2: that down cork. Right. Yeah, that's why the basic answer

792
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: is no. But then you're saying, maybe there's more going on.

793
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: Maybe it does change into some charminess sometimes. Is that

794
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: what's going on?

795
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, because in quantum mechanics, anything that can happen

796
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: will happen, and we don't see a reason why you

797
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: can't sometimes have charm quarks hanging out inside the proton.

798
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: But these calculations are really hard to do. You know.

799
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: Quantum chromodynamics, the theory that explains how the strong interactions

800
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: work and how quarks come together to make particles, is

801
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: a bear to work with. We can't even do things

802
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: like calculate from first principles what the mass of the

803
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: proton should be or the mass of these other particles.

804
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: It's like very very difficult to do anything with. So

805
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: it's dominated by experiments. We have to go out and

806
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: actually measure this stuff and see what's in the universe

807
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: and then try to figure out how to explain it

808
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: with our calculations, because we're really limited in the calculations

809
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: we can do here. And so people have been doing

810
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: experiments to see like what's inside the proton for a

811
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: few decades now, and there were some hints, oh, look,

812
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: this experiment says there actually is some charm inside the proton,

813
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: some intrinsic charm, not charm that's created when we collide

814
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: stuff together other out of that energy, but charm that

815
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 1: was already there. And then another experiment that came along

816
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: said Nope, we don't see any charm. And these things

817
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: were limited because we didn't have enough data, we didn't

818
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: have enough energy, we didn't have enough power. But recently,

819
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: because the large Hadron Collider, we have more data, we

820
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: have more energy, we can get more definitive measurements for

821
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: what's inside the proton.

822
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: M I feel like you're talking about charm, like it's

823
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: a property, like riz, you know, or like actual charm.

824
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: Is it like a property? I thought we were talking

825
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,240
Speaker 2: about the charm quark.

826
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: Saying whether it has charm is just shorthand for saying

827
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: whether there's a probability to find charm quarks in the proton.

828
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 1: But we are changing a little bit what we mean

829
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: by it's made out of right, we think of the

830
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: atom is made out of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Like

831
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: you have those things as ingredients, you put them together,

832
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: and now you call it an atom. Here is a

833
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: little bit different. It's a little fuzzyer. It's a little

834
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: bit more quantum mechanical. We're saying, like the wave function

835
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: of the proton has components of the upcork and the

836
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: down cork, and maybe this is a component there for

837
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: the charm cork, not like the charm cork is always there,

838
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: but there's always a probability for it. So it changes

839
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: a little bit what we mean by like this proton

840
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: is made of something.

841
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: But I guess then you get into the question of

842
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: like where do you draw the line quantum mechanically, it

843
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: is technically possible for my body to suddenly turn into

844
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: the body of Brad Pitt, right, Like that's a quantum

845
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: mechanical probability. It's very small, but it is technically a

846
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 2: possibility right in this universe.

847
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think you're both equally chamming, so

848
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: you're already there.

849
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, Brad Pitt is very chamming, but just because I

850
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: can turn into Brad Pitt at any moment doesn't mean

851
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: that I am Brad Pitt mm hm.

852
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: But you can ask the question if I call Jorge

853
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: a thousand times, what fraction the time does Brad answer?

854
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: Right?

855
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: M m. And well, even if it's like one in

856
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: a trillion or what point what number of phone calls

857
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 2: should I change my name to Brad Pitt?

858
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, if you've always called Jorge and Brad has

859
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: never answered the you can't say that there's a Brad

860
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: contribution to Jorge. But as soon as it happens, then boom,

861
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: you've measured the Brad fraction of hoorhe sham.

862
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: And then at what point do you say that I

863
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: am made out of Brad Pit.

864
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,959
Speaker 1: When you can measure some Brad in hoorray the time

865
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: the Brad answers, that's what will declare you are partially

866
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: Brad Pit?

867
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: Like is there a percentage that you would do that?

868
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: Just like in the proton, is there a percentage of

869
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: charm corking? Is that you would then say yes, the

870
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 2: proton does have a charm cork in it, because technically

871
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: it does right now, right there's a very small probability

872
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: as you said that things in it can turn into

873
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 2: a charm fork.

874
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any minimum quantities. As long as

875
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: you can measure it. As long as it's large enough

876
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: for us to detect it, then we'll say we found

877
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: charm in the proton and we know that it's there.

878
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: Otherwise it's just sort of theoretical. It's like saying, you know,

879
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: is there a teapot a zillion light years away? I mean,

880
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: maybe there is, but we'll never detect it, so it's

881
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: just theoretical. But as long as we measure some charm

882
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: cork in the proton, then we can it's there. Otherwise

883
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: it's just like a possibility. And again we can't really

884
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: even do the calculations or we can predict theoretically and

885
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: to say how much charm there should be in the proton,

886
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: So it really has to be led by measurements.

887
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 3: MM.

888
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: But I guess maybe the question is like, are you

889
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: saying that it's possible that the proton has the charm

890
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 2: work in it, or is there maybe something the theory

891
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: that says it's impossible, or is that what you're trying

892
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: to get at, Like we need to prove it to

893
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: make sure that it is possible.

894
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, the theory says that it's possible, but the theory

895
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: is very fuzzy and very hard to work with. So

896
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is to go out there

897
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: and measure the charm fraction of the proton, and that

898
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: might help us come back and improve our theories and

899
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: get a better grip on what we think is going on.

900
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: I see, so you think that maybe it is possible

901
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: for the insights of a proton to turn into a

902
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: charm cork, but you're not sure yet because you haven't

903
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: seen it or confirmed it exactly in experiments. Some people have,

904
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 2: some people haven't.

905
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,479
Speaker 1: That was the scenario until a couple of years ago,

906
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: and then using data at the Large Hadron Collider, we

907
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: were able to confirmed that there really is charm cork

908
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: inside the proton. So this is that paper that came

909
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty two that had very powerful statistical

910
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: evidence for charm quarks inside protons, which means we're pretty

911
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: sure we can say the proton is charming. But you know,

912
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: dot dot maybe question mark.

913
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like the language you're using is maybe confusing,

914
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: Like you're not saying it has charm inside of it,

915
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: You're saying it sometimes turns into a charm cork. What's

916
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: inside of the proton?

917
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: I think the most precise way to say it is

918
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: that the wave function for the proton has probabilities for upquarks,

919
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: down quarks, and charm quarks. Sometimes when you look inside

920
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: the proton, you will find a charm core.

921
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: Hmmm, oh all right, So then it has been experimentally verified.

922
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: You think maybe the latest evidence from about a year

923
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: ago is pretty persuasive. It's more than three statistical sigmas

924
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: of significance.

925
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: Now, what's the difference there, Like, what's the thing that

926
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: makes you more sure rather than not that it's not

927
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: like coming from the energy when you collide these particles,

928
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: for example, that it's actually there if you don't look

929
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: at it.

930
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: It comes from the patterns of how the particles emerge

931
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: from the collisions. Like if it's coming from actually inside

932
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: the proton, then you'll see these particles come out in

933
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: the path that the protons were taking, because then the

934
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: charm quirks are moving with the protons as they come

935
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: into the collision. If the charm quirk wasn't there the

936
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: whole time, it's just made during the collision, you tend

937
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: to see these charm quarks fly out more like at

938
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: the center. We're just where the collision happens. So there's

939
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: some subtle patterns there that people have been looking for.

940
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: But the spray of particles. You get a different prediction

941
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 1: if the charm cork was there all the time than

942
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: if the charm cork is only created in the moments

943
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: of the collision. But it's a subtle effect, which is

944
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: why this experiment was very difficult to do and needed

945
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: a lot of data and was only wrapped up a

946
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: couple of years ago.

947
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So now does that mean that the international physics

948
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: community has issued a giant apology for all those textbooks

949
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: and posters that say that the proton is made out

950
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 2: of up quarks? In it down because all this time

951
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: you've been wrong.

952
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 1: Well, I think we're working on stickers on our web

953
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: store that say dot dot dot maybe to be added

954
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: to every textbook ever.

955
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: Well no, but I mean it, like, you know, you

956
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: walk down the physics department, do you see a poster

957
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: with the fundamental theory of particle physics and it's as

958
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: that a proton is made out of two upcoorse and

959
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: douncork but now you have to change the story.

960
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, it's an update to the story.

961
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: It's part of science evolving and becoming more charming as

962
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: we learn more about how the universe works.

963
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: So are you going to change those posters? Do you

964
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: think that? Or maybe the question is, do you think

965
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 2: those posters need to be updated?

966
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tough question to sort of pedagogy, like

967
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: how do you teach this stuff? You know, the story

968
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: is mostly the same, but there are nuances, and so

969
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: it might be worth introducing those at the very start,

970
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: or it might be worth explaining those as you dig

971
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: deeper into the story.

972
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: I understand what you mean, because I do a lot

973
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: of science communication. But there's sort of a fine line

974
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: between not saying something that's not true yeah, and saying

975
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: something that's more complicated.

976
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's a difficult line or walk I agree?

977
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: So which one do you think it is? Do you

978
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: think it needs to be updated at some point? If

979
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: I say right now that the proton is made out

980
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: into upworks and down quarks, you technically would have to

981
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 2: say that's not true, or we think that's not true.

982
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: So if I see it on a poster, does that

983
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: need to be corrected.

984
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: I think that basically everything we say in quantum mechanics

985
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: and in particle physics is an approximation. So from that perspective,

986
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: like nothing is exactly true, there's always qualifications anywhere to.

987
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: Take exactly I don't say anything.

988
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: At all, but it's still worth saying. It's still worth

989
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: introducing people to these ideas, even if the story we

990
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: tell at first is only approximately true and the end

991
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: all of our understanding is probably only approximately true.

992
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I feel like some things are stronger

993
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: than others. Like you can say an atom is made

994
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: out of protons and electrons. There's no cavea to that,

995
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: is there.

996
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: Well, there's other stuff in there, right, The photons can

997
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: turn into other particles, and so when you interact with

998
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: an atom, some times you find W bosons and z

999
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: bosons inside there.

1000
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: In addition to the electrons and protons. But the elections

1001
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 2: and protons are still there.

1002
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: Nope, elections and protons are still there all right.

1003
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 2: Well, another interesting insight into how we're still firing things out.

1004
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 2: The universe is vast and mysterious, and our current theories

1005
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: may change tomorrow or today, or maybe they should have changed,

1006
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: a while ago.

1007
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: We're here trying to explain, are constantly evolving understanding to you?

1008
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1009
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 2: joining us, See you next time.

1010
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1011
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Insta,

1012
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1013
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1014
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1015
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,920
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