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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week. The billionaire

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Speaker 1: taking on Elon Musk, Vinoth Cosla is the definition of

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Speaker 1: a Silicon Valley veteran. In the nineteen eighties, he started

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Speaker 1: Sun Microsystems, which was later acquired by Oracle in twenty

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Speaker 1: ten for seven point four billion dollars, and in the

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Speaker 1: decades since, his influence in the tech world has only grown.

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Speaker 1: After his stint at Sun, he became an investor, starting

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Speaker 1: with Kleiner Perkins. In two thousand and four, he founded

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Speaker 1: Cosla Ventures, which has backed big tech success stories like door, dash, Stripe,

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Speaker 1: and Instacart. Cosla Ventures now has fifteen billion dollars in

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Speaker 1: assets under management, including more than four hundred companies in

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Speaker 1: the portfolio, things like plant based burger replacement company Impossible Foods,

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Speaker 1: and Lancetech, which turns pollution into sustainable fuel. At the moment,

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Speaker 1: he's especially focused on artificial intelligence, and it's an obsession

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Speaker 1: he shares with another tech billionaire founder, Elon Musk. Recently,

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Speaker 1: Wynode and Elon have been locked in a pointed debate

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Speaker 1: on x not just about AI, but also things like

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Speaker 1: beachfront property and immigration and the Big One politics with

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Speaker 1: just weeks to go to the US election, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask Winnode what he thinks the titans of the

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Speaker 1: tech industry get right and wrong about politics and climate change.

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Speaker 1: I had fun in this conversation, and as you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: Winnode did too.

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Speaker 2: He also had strong opinions.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, winner, Great to be here. Now

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Speaker 1: you've seen it all in the climate tech space. You've

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Speaker 1: been investing in the space for more than twenty years,

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Speaker 1: and you still invest in climate startups even today. And

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Speaker 1: there have been some real success stories, like for Terror,

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Speaker 1: which makes low carbon cement, which had a big round

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Speaker 1: raised recently. There's also a lance attech which turns pollution

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Speaker 1: into sustainable fuel. And there have been failures too. But

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Speaker 1: as you look at the technology set today, apart from AI,

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Speaker 1: what do you think is still missing from the climate

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Speaker 1: tech space.

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Speaker 3: So I do think there's a compliment to fusion that's very,

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Speaker 3: very important. So far, geothermal has mostly been about low

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Speaker 3: temperature geothermal, so whether you're talking about EVO or FERVO,

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Speaker 3: they do a good job. So they improve the economics

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Speaker 3: of geothermal, but want increase capacity fifty fold. I'm interested

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Speaker 3: in technologies that operate at four hundred and fifty degrees centigrade,

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Speaker 3: not two hundred and fifty degrees centigrade or three hundred

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Speaker 3: degrees centigrade.

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Speaker 1: And you're going to do that because you will drill deeper,

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Speaker 1: and that in accessing these hotter areas, you are going

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Speaker 1: to increase the temperature by fifty percent, but power output

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Speaker 1: by a lot more than fifty percent.

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Speaker 3: That will ten x the amount of power produced from

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Speaker 3: the same well. So one you can get ten x

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Speaker 3: the amount of power and be a much bigger play.

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Speaker 3: But more importantly, it can really work in many more

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Speaker 3: locations at four hun and fifty degrees if we solve

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Speaker 3: one problem that we don't understand how to solve today

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Speaker 3: and we are working on actively, which is how do

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Speaker 3: you drill at four hundred and fifty degrees because metal

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Speaker 3: drills don't work, and that's been the technical problem. If

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Speaker 3: we solve that, and we have two separate efforts to

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Speaker 3: do that, geothermal can be a very large percentage of

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Speaker 3: your selectricity. Most of the western United States we can

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Speaker 3: access four hundred and fifty degree heat if we get

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Speaker 3: a couple of technologies right, and that's where technology risk

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Speaker 3: is needed today. Geothermal is point four percent of your selectricity,

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Speaker 3: and we've seen Google signs some deals and others. Those

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Speaker 3: are incremental technologies in my view. But if we want

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Speaker 3: to go from point four percent to ten percent or

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Speaker 3: twenty percent or more of US electricity, you need four

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifty degree geothermal, and I think we are

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Speaker 3: well on our way right.

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Speaker 1: And then one thing that has happened recently with the

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Speaker 1: AI boom is requirement for energy has gone up a lot,

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Speaker 1: and you've seen tech companies recently start to invest in

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Speaker 1: small modular reactors. Microsoft has a deal, Google has a

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Speaker 1: Amazon has a deal. What do you think about the

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Speaker 1: future of nuclear fission through small modular reactors? Is this

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Speaker 1: just a new hype cycle or are we entering a

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Speaker 1: new phase of growth for nuclear fission.

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Speaker 3: I think the people who are doing SMRs and other

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Speaker 3: versions of fission like care power are doing a good

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Speaker 3: job of developing the technology. And I'm a huge fan

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Speaker 3: of more nuclear fission deployment, so I'm a real fan

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Speaker 3: if he can make it happen. Unfortunately, I think the

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Speaker 3: problem is a social one and nimbiism and lawsuits against

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Speaker 3: fission projects will cause ten year plus maybe fifteen year

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Speaker 3: delays in even finding a site that's approved, that the

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Speaker 3: community has gone through, community has approved. Nobody wants a

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Speaker 3: nuclear plant, a fission plant, anywhere near their neighborhoods. So

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Speaker 3: I think the fundamental problem is that technology. And I

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Speaker 3: wish there was a dictator who dictates, say you are

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Speaker 3: going to get a nuclear fission plant a well, but

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Speaker 3: fission is so much more possible now. I do think

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Speaker 3: five six years from now, we won't be talking about

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Speaker 3: fission because fusion will be real.

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Speaker 1: Right now, talking about dictators, the US election is coming up,

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Speaker 1: and you've made it clear who you support. You tweeted,

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Speaker 1: It's hard for me to support someone with no values,

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Speaker 1: who lies, cheats, rapes, demeans women, hates immigrants like me.

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Speaker 1: He may cut my taxes or reduce some regulations, but

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Speaker 1: that is no reason to accept depravity in his personal values. Now,

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Speaker 1: putting aside the question of personal values, I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you how you feel about the two candidates when

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Speaker 1: you think about it as a tech investor. What changes

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Speaker 1: in terms of our technological future under Trump versus under Harris.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there'll be any difference in policy between

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Speaker 3: the two when it comes to tech. Trump has historically

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Speaker 3: created in benefit of traditional players instead of new players,

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Speaker 3: so his instincts during his last administration was the incumbents

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Speaker 3: get the benefit of the doubt as opposed to the

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Speaker 3: technologists get the benefit of the doubt. I don't think

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Speaker 3: he had very friendly policies to tech last time around,

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Speaker 3: and clearly the Biden administration listens a lot more. The

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Speaker 3: Executive Order on AI was a really balanced approach to

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Speaker 3: AI regulation. Clearly there were huge number of Republicans and

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Speaker 3: Democrats supporting that executive order, and I engage with any

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Speaker 3: of them. That was balanced policy. What else would say

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Speaker 3: is Trump tends to do more Nieja things based on

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Speaker 3: who he's talked to most recently than a thoughtful ten

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Speaker 3: twenty year policy. So I'm very afraid of random things

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Speaker 3: Trump might do.

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Speaker 1: So, and I know you've been thinking a lot about

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Speaker 1: this election. I these days don't spend that much time

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Speaker 1: on X, but every so often when I'm there, I

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Speaker 1: have seen this exchange you've had with Elon about Trump. Now.

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk is one of the biggest donors to the

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Speaker 1: Trump campaign. According to The New York Times, he's given

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Speaker 1: seventy five million dollars in this quarter, and you called

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Speaker 1: Musk's interview off Trump dumb, and then he responded by

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Speaker 1: calling you dumb. And this back and forth has been

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Speaker 1: going out for quite sometimes. You've argued about immigration, about OpenAI,

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Speaker 1: about climate change. And I don't want to disturb our

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Speaker 1: lovely conversation by recapping all the things that happen and

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Speaker 1: on X, but I do want to get into some

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Speaker 1: of these exchanges because I think they're not just internet spats.

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Speaker 1: There are some substantive discussions here about climate. People have

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Speaker 1: thought Elon Musk was a climate guy, but now he's

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Speaker 1: backing Trump, who likes to riff on the green news camp.

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Speaker 1: So what are you doing outside of X to change

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Speaker 1: Elon's mind on climate change? Have you reached out to

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Speaker 1: his inner circle? Have you talked to board members at

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Speaker 1: SpaceX and Tesla, who I presume you have connections to.

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Speaker 3: So let me first address my conversation with Elan, because

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Speaker 3: it's mostly been civilized, logical back and forth. Right when

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Speaker 3: I first called the conversation around climate as dumb, which

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Speaker 3: was very specifically saying this climate policy assertions are dumb,

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Speaker 3: responded and we had a back and forth, and I

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Speaker 3: think it was a civilized back and forth. So I

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Speaker 3: think Ilan didn't want to address the climate issue, which

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Speaker 3: is fine. But I responded by saying, my priorities for

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Speaker 3: a president are values first, climate, second, economics third. On

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Speaker 3: all three, Kamala Harris wins. So on values, nobody can

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Speaker 3: have as bad a set of values as Trump has shown.

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Speaker 3: But on climate, he's been very clear his policy is drill, baby, drill,

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Speaker 3: and he dances to that tune. But on economics, sixteen

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Speaker 3: Nobel Prize economists have set high tariffs and taking ten

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Speaker 3: million farm work or immigrant workers and deporting them will

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Speaker 3: be an economic disaster. These are Nobel Prize winning economists

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Speaker 3: who say inflation will get through the roof and carits

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Speaker 3: will of course raise prices. So the consequences of his

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Speaker 3: economic policy are horrendously bad if he goes through with them,

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Speaker 3: which he probably will, and.

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Speaker 1: He said he will go through with it. In a

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Speaker 1: recent interview with John Micklethwaite, whose Bloomberg News is editor

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Speaker 1: in chief, he said he's ticking a tariffs even though

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Speaker 1: economists clearly say is going to hurt the US economy.

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Speaker 1: But going back to elon, if you think you're having

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Speaker 1: a logical conversation with him, and you think you have

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Speaker 1: these strong set of arguments on all these things, these

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Speaker 1: three points. Why is Elon still supporting Trump? Why aren't

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Speaker 1: you able to convince him to change his mind if

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Speaker 1: you are having a logical conversation.

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Speaker 3: Well, so, first let me say the logical conversation. I

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Speaker 3: pressed him a couple of times to say, was the

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Speaker 3: election's last elections stolen? And his answer in then, after

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Speaker 3: avoiding it for a bit, was no, it wasn't stolen,

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Speaker 3: which is a rational answer, probably the only correct answer

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Speaker 3: that everybody would say, except Trump. It's a new test

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Speaker 3: for loyalty. It's my test for marga extremism. If you'd

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Speaker 3: believe the election was stolen, I don't want to talk

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Speaker 3: to you. That's the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Well, Elon is now one of the richest people, if

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Speaker 1: not the richest person in the world, and you've also

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Speaker 1: clashed with him on the role of government in supporting innovation.

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Speaker 1: You've made it clear, which is actually true, that both

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Speaker 1: Tesla and SpaceX wouldn't have become the companies they have

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Speaker 1: without US government subsidies. But Elon thinks otherwise, Why is

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Speaker 1: that the case? If that, again is a factually true

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Speaker 1: logical argument.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm a huge admirer of Elan. He was an

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Speaker 3: instigator of the change to electric and without him it

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have happened. He's been hugely successful with space AX,

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Speaker 3: so you have to give him credit. He's a great

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Speaker 3: entrepreneur and he's done a lot of good for the world. Now,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe Kesler would have survived without the early subsidies.

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Speaker 3: The first couple of billion dollars of subsidies for Tesla

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Speaker 3: allowed him to survive. Now, Elan's a daring entrepreneur. He

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Speaker 3: almost went Backkraft a couple of times, but he every

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Speaker 3: time he was willing to push his personal wealth, put

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Speaker 3: it at risk and risk takers. I hugely admire for

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Speaker 3: the cause he was after. So same thing with space AX.

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Speaker 3: I think it was phenomenal catching. Essentially the equivalent of

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Speaker 3: a falling building with chopsticks. It's a little bit of

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Speaker 3: an analogy, but it is stunning engineering. So I'm a

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Speaker 3: huge fan of what he's done in space and electric

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Speaker 3: cars and a couple of other areas he's driven the

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Speaker 3: world for great innovation. Having said that, I do think

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Speaker 3: Ilan has focused on one issue that he's dealt with

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Speaker 3: which is too much regulation? And I don't think regulation

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Speaker 3: is a top three issue. I think economics, values, and

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Speaker 3: climate are the top three issues. And I would like

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Speaker 3: to see less regulation. But there are times when regulation

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Speaker 3: does make sense, like if the FDA regulating what drug

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Speaker 3: is approved.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why you think he's supporting Trump now

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Speaker 1: because if Trump comes in, he's going to take away

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Speaker 1: electric car subsidies.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's his motivation. It will help him

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Speaker 3: if he take away electric car subsidies. I think his

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Speaker 3: motivation is less regulation, not his interest in Tesla or

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Speaker 3: SpaceX or anything else.

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Speaker 1: After the break, more from my conversation Silicon Valley veteran Cosla.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you've been enjoying this episode, please

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Speaker 1: take a moment to share with a friend. Now let's

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Speaker 1: take the longer view outside of Elon and your spat.

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Speaker 1: If you just look at Silicon Valley and you spend

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Speaker 1: majority of your career there, these are people who are

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Speaker 1: facts driven. They care about innovation, They want the numbers

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Speaker 1: to add up. Recently, that's shown up in them caring

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Speaker 1: about climate change. We've seen a number of these billionaires

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Speaker 1: investing in climate take innovation not just you, but when

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Speaker 1: we look at the moment in the election today, there

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Speaker 1: is a very loud, influential tech billionaire crowd, Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: being one of them, but he's got others like Peter

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Speaker 1: Thiel and Mark and Reeson who are pushing for a

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Speaker 1: Trump election that, according to you, will affect these three things.

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Speaker 1: So it values climate and economy. So have you felt

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Speaker 1: pressured in this moment to be a more vocal person

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Speaker 1: with your views to counter the narrative because Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: in a way is starting to show this seam and

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Speaker 1: show this divide.

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Speaker 3: So let me be clear. A survey was done recently

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Speaker 3: by somebody and said seventy two percent support for Kamala

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Speaker 3: Harris over Trump in Silicon Valley. I think the narrative

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Speaker 3: of people in Silicon Valley supporting Trump has been amplified

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Speaker 3: because it's news. If Silicon Valley is a cultural attitude,

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Speaker 3: which I also think it is, then they're only partially

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Speaker 3: Silicon Valley and partially subscribed to as Mark says, techno optimism.

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Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of techno optimism. In fact, I've

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Speaker 3: been using that phrase, but I add two words to

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Speaker 3: techno optimism that Mark Hits. It's techno optimism with care

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Speaker 3: and caring and care means safety and regulatory like an AI.

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Speaker 3: But there's a balance to be achieved because capitalism is

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Speaker 3: by permission of democracy, and we don't have permission for capitalism.

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Speaker 3: I think it'll be rained in.

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Speaker 1: So in a way, we're talking about regulations as this

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Speaker 1: big dividing line. There's the people on the right who

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Speaker 1: are supporting from who don't want regulations, and then there

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Speaker 1: are people on the left who are wanting regulations because

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Speaker 1: they think they need this care because technology is a

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Speaker 1: difficult double ed sword and you need.

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Speaker 3: Let me be clear, I think we have too much regulation.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying some regulation is needed. A lot of regulation

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Speaker 3: is not needed.

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Speaker 1: So let me be clear, say, Kamala Harris wins, what

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Speaker 1: would be your dream role in a Harris administration to

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Speaker 1: address the too much regulation point? No role.

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Speaker 3: I never want to do anything in any administration, Republican democratic.

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Speaker 3: I'm a registered independent. By the way, I used to

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Speaker 3: be a Republican and changed to independent after the Republicans

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Speaker 3: stopped supporting climate issues. Let's be clear, Bush supported climate

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Speaker 3: Many people like Lindsey Graham and others Republican Senators supported climate,

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Speaker 3: but now it's become unacceptable to support climate if you're

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Speaker 3: a Republican. I think that's unfortunate, and that's when I

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Speaker 3: registered to be an independent. But I'll never have a

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Speaker 3: role in any administration, no matter what the role.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if you want to address this issue

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Speaker 1: of too much regulation, what should the administration be doing?

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Speaker 1: Even if you don't take a role.

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Speaker 3: In, I think we have to systematically look at all

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Speaker 3: areas with both the administration, the Senate and the House

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Speaker 3: and start to reduce overhead for getting things done quickly.

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Speaker 1: Are there too much regulations in the climate space? You

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Speaker 1: mentioned a little bit about permitting issues, et cetera, but

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Speaker 1: anything else.

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Speaker 3: Generally, California has bad policy when it comes to implementing

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Speaker 3: climate projects. So our cement plant in northern California for

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Speaker 3: Terra was delayed significantly and frankly costs so much more

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Speaker 3: because of some frog and so that does happen in California,

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Speaker 3: and California needs to fix that.

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Speaker 1: So, given disagreements, but you're also a fan of Elon

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris has promised that she will put a Republican

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Speaker 1: in her cabinet if she's elected, would you support Elon

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Speaker 1: getting that Republican seat.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I won't speak for Kamala. Of course, I'd be supportive,

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Speaker 3: depending upon what that is.

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Speaker 1: This is a lot of deregulation, right. He wants to

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Speaker 1: bring in efficiency in government and wants to deregulate.

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Speaker 3: No, I think he could do that job pretty well.

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Speaker 3: My bet is he'd get frustrated with all the processes

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Speaker 3: and procedures. But I'd be supportive of that absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And given there is a real chance that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is going to win the election, have you reached out

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Speaker 1: to his team to try and change their mind on

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Speaker 1: climate given how much of an impact that could have

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Speaker 1: in your view?

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm hoping if they do win, which I hope

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Speaker 3: won't happen, Elan would be that advocate for a better

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Speaker 3: approach to climate. Look at it this way, and I

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Speaker 3: think many people would agree with me. We do have

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Speaker 3: thirty four trillion in economic debt has to be addressed,

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Speaker 3: but we have much larger climate that we're accumulating, and

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Speaker 3: climate debt is much harder to pay off than economic debt.

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Speaker 3: Take a simple example, right, I think the twenty year

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Speaker 3: forecast for the amount of wealth transfer from rich people

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Speaker 3: to their kids is about eighty trillion over the next

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Speaker 3: twenty years. Taxing that at twenty five thirty percent would

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Speaker 3: pay off most of our debt. For example, there's other

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Speaker 3: inflationary strategies to pay off debt. I do believe economic

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Speaker 3: debt is easier to pay off than climate debt, and

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Speaker 3: so climate that should be our great priority.

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Speaker 1: Now, one thing that you have cared about a lot,

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Speaker 1: given you move to Silicon Valley from India and how

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Speaker 1: much climate change is going to affect developing countries, especially India.

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Speaker 1: One way in which America can contribute to the world

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Speaker 1: is through technology leadership, through ensuring that these green technologies

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Speaker 1: are cheaper and they're widely accessible. Right now, that is

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Speaker 1: not what America is doing. It is China that is

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Speaker 1: making these green technologies cheaper and more available to developing countries.

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Speaker 1: What do you think America needs to do to actually

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Speaker 1: play the role of realizing the costs and making these

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Speaker 1: technologies really affordable.

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Speaker 3: Look, America doesn't own any of the climate technologies. Private

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Speaker 3: companies do. So if we have a new fusion technology,

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Speaker 3: it depend on that company to decide where they deploy it,

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Speaker 3: not depend on the US government. Now, China paid attention

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Speaker 3: to solar, and solar is now a half a trillion

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Speaker 3: dollar market annually, and we lost the lead in manufacturing

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Speaker 3: a couple of countries Europe, and Europe is a hopeless

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Speaker 3: case when it comes to regulation, and the US should

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Speaker 3: try and develop battery technology, but it looks like the

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Speaker 3: Chinese companies will own battery technology manufacturing at the lowest

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Speaker 3: costs unless we have breakthroughs, which we are trying. So

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Speaker 3: quantum scape is a great example of a technology that

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Speaker 3: can win against the Chinese. So we have to win

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Speaker 3: at these But there are new areas. Obviously fusion would

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Speaker 3: be one of those massive areas. Steel could be one

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Speaker 3: of those areas, though there's very little steel business in

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Speaker 3: the US. Cement is clearly an area where US could lead.

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Speaker 3: So there's very very large markets the US could win

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Speaker 3: at and US companies would then deploy them and not

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Speaker 3: transfer them to China. So I'm very much at China

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Speaker 3: Hawk and do feel like we should be very aggressive

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Speaker 3: with China, but I do think it will depend on

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Speaker 3: innovators to develop new technologies, not try and address lost markets.

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Speaker 1: But aren't you contradicting yourself when you say that it's

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Speaker 1: only company is that choose and that decide which countries

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Speaker 1: they build their technology in, while also saying you see

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Speaker 1: the role of how government subsidies have been important in

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Speaker 1: certain types of early stage technologies and early companies to

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Speaker 1: actually take off. Right a Tesla? Could it have happened

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Speaker 1: in Europe? According to you, why did it happen in America.

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Speaker 3: If they didn't have the early subsidies for electric cars?

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Speaker 3: I don't believe it'd be hard. It'd be hard to

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Speaker 3: build that company. I won't say impossible, but very hard

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Speaker 3: to build a company on strict economics because there was

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Speaker 3: a huge cost when the volumes were low. But we

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Speaker 3: did get Tesla going, but we lost the battery market.

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Speaker 3: We might have said, for example, that you don't get

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Speaker 3: subsidies if you're importing your batteries from China, for example.

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Speaker 1: Right, But if that is the case, then you are

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Speaker 1: saying that the government does play a role. So is

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Speaker 1: it just companies that are going to build a technology?

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Speaker 1: Does it not matter what governments are doing to enable

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Speaker 1: these technologies to be built out?

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Speaker 3: So climate technologies need both breakthrough innovation and good policy,

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Speaker 3: and good policy means kickstart those innovations. Because day one

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Speaker 3: they can't compete with, say oil and gas, and oil

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Speaker 3: and gas have huge subsidies. I mean the amount we've

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Speaker 3: spent trillions and trillions of dollars defending the oil lanes

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Speaker 3: in the midies. Those are subsidies because without those defense

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Speaker 3: spending costs, oil and gas would be way more expensive.

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Speaker 3: So that's an example. You have tax policy like MLPs

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Speaker 3: master limited partnerships that are subsidies to the oil and

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Speaker 3: gas industry. So we have subsidies and industrial policy everywhere,

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Speaker 3: whether we like it or not. But good policy can

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Speaker 3: courage climate technologies. But the core of climate technologies is

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Speaker 3: going to be innovation at which America is best.

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Speaker 1: One last question for you, what should India be doing

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Speaker 1: right now in trying to fight climate change.

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Speaker 3: Well, first, India can much less afford some of this,

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Speaker 3: especially when they're at high higher than fossil competitors. I

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Speaker 3: call any technology as important if he'll eventually get to

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Speaker 3: the Chindia price right be adapted in India or China,

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Speaker 3: irrespective of climate or not. Solar has reached that and

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Speaker 3: India is deploying solar very heavily, and that's a great thing.

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Speaker 3: But could India afford technologies today that cost more than

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Speaker 3: their fossil competitors or afford to subsidize them. No, and

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Speaker 3: I do think the West and West won't transfer billions

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Speaker 3: of dollars or hundreds of billions of dollars a year

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Speaker 3: to the developing world, but they can get technologies going

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Speaker 3: in their own countries and win the manufacturing battles, so

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Speaker 3: they get benefit from these new climate technologies when they

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Speaker 3: get to unsubsidized comparative nests and then deploy them all

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Speaker 3: over the world.

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Speaker 1: Great, thank you for not thank you, thank you for

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Speaker 1: listening to Zero. And now for the sound of the week,

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Speaker 1: we can see those. That's the sound of the SpaceX

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Speaker 1: starship Rockets upper stage being caught mid air. If you

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Speaker 1: on X. You can get in touch at zero pod

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Mike lee Raw.

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Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Blake Maples. Bloomberg's head of

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Speaker 1: Podcasts is Seje Bauman and head of Talk is Brendan

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Speaker 1: nunam Our. Theme music is composed by wonderly Special thanks

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Speaker 1: to Shawan Wagner, Jessica beck Ethan Steinberg, Monique Malima, Angel Roussio,

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Speaker 1: Michelle ma and Biz Carson. I am Akshatrati back soon.

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Speaker 3: Oh. I think they were great questions, and I think

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Speaker 3: I had good answers. I get sometimes I get a

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Speaker 3: little too excitable about these