WEBVTT - Fred Vogelstein on the Problem of Facebook's Power 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:05.040 Untold numbers of journalists, politicians, technologists, and armchair experts have 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:08.160 tackled the slippery topic of Facebook, and to be honest, 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:10.680 I was a little wary of jumping into these boiling waters. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.720 I'm not an expert on the social network by any means, 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.480 but I have reported on my share of other scandals 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.840 in overall business gone bad. Like most of us, I 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.000 am deeply interested in the gargantuan problem that is Facebook. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.920 So when I read the Wired article fifteen months of 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:29.320 Fresh Hell Inside Facebook, written by my friend and class 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.159 act reporter Fred Vogelstein, I knew I'd found the right 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.000 guide to help us understand the story behind the story 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:39.640 at Facebook. So Facebook, the problem of the company's power 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:45.120 starts out sounding familiar, but then it becomes totally, incompletely unprecedented. 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.720 The first thing to understand is simple, we are the product. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:51.840 Facebook's business model is built on getting us to spend 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.640 as much time as possible on the platform, sharing as 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.320 much as possible about our lives. We're essentially paying for 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.279 Facebook with our attention and our data. This is by 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.240 no means unique to Facebook. Every website you visit is 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.920 collecting data of some sort and using it to show 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.760 you better ads, or to profile you in some other way. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.800 Sometimes your data is anonymous, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's secure. Sometimes, 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.080 as we have all learned, it's not ug. It's just 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.280 the way advertising and social networks than the Internet have evolved, 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.480 and Facebook is the biggest player in this game. I've 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.760 heard an argument that this isn't any different from the 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.319 old days of television or radio. They gave us entertainment. 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.920 We watch their advertising, but it is different because it's 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.600 even bigger and more concentrated than you might think. One person, 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:44.360 Mark Zuckerberg, controlling sixty percent of voting shares, says at 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.360 the very top of not just one, but three of 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:52.760 the world's major communications platforms Facebook, Instagram, and What'sapp that 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:57.240 billions of people use every single day, and then there 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.000 are the privacy shortcomings. It's like a reverse Spider Man, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.120 and with great power comes great irresponsibility. We share far 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.520 more with Facebook than we ever did with our TV sets. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.480 Time and again, Facebook has purposely ignored privacy and fixated 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:14.079 on growth. This worked for them for years, but when 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.280 data leaks and privacy scandals just keep coming. When the 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.320 compromised data is being used by political operatives to manipulate 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.760 human behavior during elections. I think it's fair to say 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.280 that Facebook's old slogan, move fast and break things, needs 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.600 to be retired before Facebook breaks are very democracy. The 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.560 real problem of Facebook's power is, as Facebook co founder 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.880 Chris Hughes said when he wrote his Wall Street Journal 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.160 op ed, It's time to break up Facebook, there is 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.520 no precedent for the ability to monitor, organize, and even 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.360 censor the conversations of two billion people. Something of this 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:52.160 size has just never happened before. Exponential technology has maybe 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.359 gotten out of hand. How can Facebook regulate itself? Can 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.800 artificial intelligence do it instead of human intelligence? Can the 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.960 ferment what role do we as humans play in the 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.959 uglier aspects of how Facebook has evolved? After all, even 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.440 when it's working normally, it still brings out the more 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.160 divisive aspects of humanity rather than the kind and loving ones. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.840 Some might even argue that Facebook's algorithms engineer rage. Facebook 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.280 might be good for its shareholders, but his Facebook a 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.320 good thing for our society. Fred who I've known since 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.280 our days at Fortune Magazine together, just did this massive 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.680 story for Wired based on interviews with sixty five current 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.440 and former employees at the company. I was so glad 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.120 he made some time to talk with me, even though 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.120 he's fighting a case of laryngitis. In this episode, he 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.440 walks us through a story about the seismic shifts happening 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.720 inside Facebook, a company trapped by its own pathologies and 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.800 one with no precedent, where we are all literally writing 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.680 the rules as we make or break them. We're going 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.360 to start at the beginning. You've got this great line 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.560 in your piece that Facebook's reputation is sinking toward junk 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:01.720 bond status. Why Facebook is sinking toward dunk bond status 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.840 Because Facebook, when you kind of cut right through, it 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.920 relies on people trusting it as an organization to do 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.280 the right thing, because it's asking people to give them 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.000 all kinds of super personal information that they own. And 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.200 Facebook has a trust problem, and I think they're working 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.080 super hard to try to get it back. But trust 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:26.359 is one of those things that is super hard to 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.880 earn and easy to an easy to lose, and it 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.120 requires hell of a lot of effort to kind of 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.480 get back. So when it was a virtuous circle, when 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.240 Facebook was gaining power and gaining users, it was a 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.800 virtuous circle. But that virtuous circle has somehow turned vicious. Now, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.200 is that a way to think about it? That's absolutely 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.000 the way to think about it. I Mean, one of 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:50.120 the really fascinating things about what drove Facebook was very 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.839 much the same thing that drove many of the tech 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:58.680 companies that we've come to love or hate. It's a complicated, 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:03.000 complicated thing, but Microsoft became the biggest, most powerful company 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.719 on the planet. First it developed the operating systems that 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.240 ran all the computers on our desks, and then it 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.680 developed the office software that ran all the computers on 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:16.040 our desks. And the thing about those software businesses is 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.640 that they have network effects, and network effects are essentially 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.240 the more valuable the network becomes the more people are 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:30.200 on it. And Facebook essentially rode that as well. People 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:35.080 started joining Facebook because everybody else was joining Facebook. And 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:37.760 it started to get to the point where you go 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:43.680 to cocktail parties and people would say, well, I did 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.400 this on Facebook or that on Facebook. Didn't you see it? 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.520 And if on Facebook, you weren't part of the conversation. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.000 Virtual life becoming real life and vice versa, right exactly. 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.640 So I was also really struck in your story that 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.920 you have these really powerful people weighing in on face 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.239 Book in a way that just would have been shocking 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.680 a couple of years ago. You begin with this great 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:09.000 anecdote about George Soros taking Davos to announce that Facebook's 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.719 days are numbered. You've got Brian Acton, who is the 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.920 founder of WhatsApp, which was acquired by Facebook, talking about 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.880 his delete Facebook hashtag. What do you make of the 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.159 way things shifted so quickly? It seems one of the 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.560 things that happens to big companies is they realize that 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.320 they're big companies, usually a lot later than they should. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.120 It's really hard to start a company, and it's really 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.720 hard to kind of grow a business to the size 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:39.919 that Facebook grew it. And you're constantly thinking of yourself 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:44.479 as an underdog, and you're constantly thinking that there's somebody 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.960 always around the corner that's about to crush you in 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:53.360 the marketplace, and that posture doesn't really make you think 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:59.120 about your social responsibilities as an enormous firm with billions 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.320 and billions and billions of users on the planet, and 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:07.200 Facebook was just really slow to recognize that shift. The 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.560 first sign that it was hitting Facebook hard was when 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.600 Donald Trump got elected president in twenty sixteen, But I 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:18.560 really don't think Facebook itself realized it was in that 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:24.120 situation until the middle of two seventeen, when it became 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:30.120 clear that the Russians had infiltrated Facebook's platform in all 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.280 kinds of ways that even they were just starting to 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:37.880 figure out that gap between self perception and reality is fascinating, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.640 or between self perception and the rest of our perception. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:45.200 In some ways, it's understandable, because when you're a little company, 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:47.120 you have to think one way, and the only way 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.600 to know where that line is is to really cross it. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.400 But the companies that actually survive are the ones that 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.120 realize when they've crossed it and do something about it 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.960 quickly once they've crossed it. And I think what we're 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.880 seeing is that Facebook moved a little too slowly to 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.280 tackle its image problems. I also think the image problem 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:13.320 that Facebook faced was actually bigger than previous technology companies 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.680 have run into. Microsoft and Google were super powerful and 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:24.120 important but in their very specific niches technologies, computer, software, advertising. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.760 All of a sudden, Facebook was not only super influential 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:33.400 in those but suddenly it was super influential in politics 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:38.200 and international relations, and people in the intelligence community were 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.240 starting to wonder, hey, what side are you on? And so, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.160 to give Facebook some credit, the issues that Facebook had 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.400 to deal with when it crossed that line were bigger 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.640 and more complicated than really I think any company before 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.760 it has had to deal with. I was actually thinking 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:57.440 that when you were talking that if you were to 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.200 be sympathetic to them, you would say that they're reach 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.840 into people's lives and their reach around the globe is 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:05.839 just absolutely unprecedented, isn't it. I mean, has there ever 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.880 been a historical analog that you can think of a 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.240 company that could have awakened this kind of fear and loathing, 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.120 if you will, just because of its reach into the 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.760 deepest parts of our lives. I think Facebook really didn't 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:22.800 know what it was unleashing when it was asking us 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.760 to let them into our lives in the way that 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:30.600 it did, and I think they were as surprised by 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.280 the shocks as many of us were. You're almost saying 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.920 there was a naivety about Facebook. They were incredibly naive, 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.800 but to be fair, we let them be that way. 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:46.280 What's going on with Facebook is bigger than Facebook. The 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:50.720 impact that technology is having on our lives is bigger 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.240 than Facebook, and I don't think Facebook really thought that way. 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.800 I think they thought the same way technology companies before 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.800 them thought, which is that if we stick to our knitting, 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.880 everything will be fine. And I think they didn't realize 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.760 that the world thinks about technology companies one way. When 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.559 they're small and just a bunch of crazy entrepreneurs out 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.240 there in California doing that startup thing in their t shirts, 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.439 they think about them differently than when they're the top 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.520 five or six most valuable companies in the planet. I 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.880 actually want to back up to the people here, because 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.640 you've been thinking about Facebook for years, and you've covered 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:39.680 technology brilliantly for years. Who is Mark Zuckerberg? How would 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.920 you sum him up? And have you seen him change 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.560 over the years that you've been thinking about him and 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.160 getting to know him and watching him. I think Mark 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.040 Zuckerberg is a lot savvier than most people give him 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.840 credit for. I think that Mark doesn't particularly like to 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.720 be in the public eye. But the times that I've 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.320 talked to him and interviewed him, you don't get the 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:07.360 idea that he's dysfunctional as a leader and public person either. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:12.480 His background is technology, not sales. You know, Mark is 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:17.760 a very sophisticated guy who can learn very quickly about 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.680 what he needs to do to tackle the problems at hand. 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.040 One of the problems that Bill Gates had was that 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:31.760 he was super uncomfortable in the public eye in a 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:39.240 way that he was not really able to control super effectively, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.640 Whereas I think that Zuck is quite able to kind 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.360 of stand up in front of a room full of 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:50.439 people and talk about all kinds of fairly human things. 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.200 People talk about Zuck is if he's some kind of robot, 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.120 but my interactions with him have not really been that way. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.079 And have you've seen him evolve? Is he capable of evolution? 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.720 I think one of Mark Zuckerberg's biggest assets is his 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.640 ability to evolve and adapt. There used to be a 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.400 saying inside Facebook when the company was younger and fast 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.200 growing that Facebook is the company that always does the 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:24.319 right thing eventually. I love the pause before the word eventually. Well, 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:26.679 but what they're trying what they're trying to say is 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.840 is that we understand that we screw it up sometimes, 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.160 but we're also not bad people, and we are capable 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.200 of seeing the problems that we cause and doing something 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.640 about them. But it's the very length of that pause 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.640 that has gotten the company into trouble, right, the eventually, 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.559 the pause and then the eventually that is that sums 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.440 up where we are today in some ways. But you know, 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.600 to be fair, part of what's happening isn't just a 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:57.840 re examination of Facebook. It's a reexamination of the role 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:03.720 of technology in our lives and in society that really 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:10.319 hasn't happened for twenty years. I go back covering technology 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.400 to the days that technology was sold in packages in 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.680 stores on shelves. There was a time when Microsoft actually 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.880 did operating systems and did versions of Office and put 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.080 them in boxes and ship them to stores and sold 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.240 them for money, and every two years you got a 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.400 new version of whatever they were developing. And in the 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:37.520 early two thousands, Google changed all that by saying, well, 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.800 what if we gave our software away for free, paid 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.520 for it with advertising, and threw it over the wall 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.959 to you users, half baked in beta, so you guys 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:51.920 can mess around with it and tell it what tell 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.880 us what was wrong with it. That turned out to 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:59.000 be a brilliant idea twenty years ago or fifteen years ago, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.880 and that's been the whole approach to thinking about technology 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.720 since two thousand and two or two thousand and three, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.560 the thinking being that this technology is so interesting and 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.480 useful and important that we're just going to let you 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.160 guys mess around with it and see where it goes. 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.480 In those days, the technology didn't have all kinds of 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:28.000 unintended consequences that seemed particularly meaningful or bothersome. What we're 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:32.440 discovering now, though, is that the technology that these companies 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:38.960 are making has enormous unintended consequences. It's hell, it can 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:43.440 turn the world inside out in a moment, and so 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.040 all of a sudden, the conversation that we're having about 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:50.080 these new technologies much more resembles the conversation that we 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.320 used to add about nuclear weapons. We can build these weapons, 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.720 but should we That's a fascinating analogy, and I want 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.120 to come back to that. Chris Hughes said something in 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.800 the op ed he wrote, arguing also that Facebook should 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.520 be broken up that I thought was a really interesting line, 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.360 and I thought maybe you could help unpack it. And 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.520 he said, it's his very humanity that makes his unchecked 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.520 power so problematic. What do you think Chris meant by that? 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.040 Is what I said earlier? Mark Zuckerberg doesn't seem like 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.880 a bad guy. If you really get to know Mark Zuckerberg, 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.640 he's not the kind of guy that like you would say, oh, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.520 he reminds me of Joseph Stalin. He seems like a 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.400 pretty regular dude. It would be really easy when you 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.640 met Mark Zuckerberg to say, why are we getting so 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.800 worked up? He's not such a bad guy. But that's 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.880 not the problem. The problem with Zuckerberg that Chris Hughes 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:48.720 pointed out is that no one should have that kind 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:54.480 of power. It doesn't matter how good anybody is, how 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.760 well meaning they are, no single person should have the 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:03.760 kind of power Mark Zuckerberg has over how we see 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.640 information and interact with information and interact with each other. 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.560 That's the point he's making. He's saying, like it doesn't 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.840 matter who he is, we need to rethink how we 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:25.080 allow technologies and technology companies, what rules they operate in society. 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.480 I was thinking it's fascinating while you were talking. There's 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.040 of course famous line, absolute power corrupts absolutely, and maybe 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.360 in this case the analogy is absolute infiltration infiltrates absolutely 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.200 in the way in the way at which it just 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.840 steeps into every aspect of our lives, right. I think 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.560 part of the problem that we're having with Facebook and 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:47.000 all these companies, but Facebook in particular, is that we 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:53.400 still haven't decided what Facebook is. I sometimes think that 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.760 the easiest solution to how we think about Facebook and 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.200 the rest of the technology company, or certainly Facebook and Google, 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.840 is to conclude that they are the new television networks. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:13.880 We've actually seen this movie before, we just don't remember it. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.840 If that's the correct analogy, then that argues for a 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.120 very different set of regulation and a very different set 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:24.119 of responsibilities, because being a TV station came with a 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.960 fair amount of responsibilities back then, right, and also with 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.200 limitations on size, and there were lots of TV stations, 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:32.879 and all of that was at least for a period 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:37.560 of time, very deliberately thought about exactly. The problem we 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.280 have is that these new companies, as you'd expect, have 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.800 tried to explain to us and convince us that they 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.560 are entirely new and different things that nobody has seen 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:55.480 before in humanity. And the reality is that's false. We've 0:17:55.480 --> 0:18:01.080 seen this movie completely before. It started one hundred years 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:07.800 ago with radio and then television, and you could go 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.320 back even before that and say it started with the 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:15.199 printing press, but and the development and the telephone and 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:20.480 the development of recording devices. I mean, Facebook just takes 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.280 all of that and kind of squishes it into one thing. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.960 But that doesn't mean that it's different. In fact, it's 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.680 more powerful, and you could argue that it maybe needs 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.879 more regulation and rules that we had on the television 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:40.479 networks and the telephone companies and the cable companies that 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.880 we put in place back in the fifties, sixties and seventies. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.480 I want to go back to another person at Facebook 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.720 in addition to Zuk, and that's Cheryl Sandberg. What do 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.960 you think about her? Who is she? I think that 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.760 Cheryl is one of the most impressive executives in American business, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.880 and everybody I've talked to, even the people who hate 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.919 say that as well. What I can't figure out, though, 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:11.439 is her background is sales, marketing politics. She worked for 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:17.879 Larry Summers in Washington. She understands how society turns on 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.840 things and how laws get passed and regulations get passed. 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.760 And I'm a little surprised that her expertise has still 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:32.960 left Facebook looking as flat footed as it has. So 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.119 going back to your nuclear weapons analogy. In the end, 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.639 a nuclear weapon is only dangerous because it's in the 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.200 hands of people, right, so it is the ultimate problem 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.320 all of us. In other words, if Facebook was naive 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.520 in some ways counting on human nature to be better 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:51.840 than it perhaps is are we really the problem? Some 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.399 of what I think is happening here is that we 0:19:55.760 --> 0:20:01.560 as people are finally getting over our starry eyed views 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:06.120 of the Internet in general. I think that there were 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.119 a lot of people when the Internet took hold in 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.920 the mid nineties. I think that there were a lot 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.560 of people, and I'll include myself, who believe that the 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:20.119 Internet would change the world in only good ways, because 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:25.960 how could a technology that allowed people access to information 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:31.879 everywhere and anywhere not be a good thing? And we 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.439 all thought that the world was going to be a 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:40.480 better place, and we allowed technology companies to convince us 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.760 of that as we moved forward. And guess what, the 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:50.440 Internet and Facebook we're realizing are just another tool. They're 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:55.960 like the telephone, they're like the wheel, they're like fire. 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:01.720 You don't get a free ride humanity when it's all connected, 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:07.040 and when you can put information anywhere, we'll figure out 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.600 a way to mess up the same way it's been 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.640 doing since Adam and Eve. Humans are just like this. 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.440 It will be really beautiful and it will be really ugly. 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.119 There is this other component. So I accept that some 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.040 of us, and this nastiness that is part of human nature, 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.080 is to blame for where we are. But then you 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.439 layer on top of this. Facebook has always had this 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.720 just relentless drive for growth. Why is that? Where does 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:35.760 that come from? Because I don't get the impression, and 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.800 you would know better that Mark Zuckerberg's primary goal is 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:40.960 being rich. I think it all goes back to the 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:45.320 power of network effects. I think Facebook realized early on 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.639 that the more people who used Facebook, the more people 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:55.240 used Facebook. And so if you think that way, and 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:00.720 your business is going to be driven by advertising, which 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:06.400 means eyeballs. By definition, getting as many eyeballs as possible 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:11.000 becomes your reason for existing, right, It's like oxygen. It 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.520 becomes something you need for survival, or at least that 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.240 you perceive you need for survival exactly. So I think 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:21.320 Facebook just went after growth the way you'd expect any 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.680 engineers to go after growth. They actually looked at the problem, 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:30.360 applied all kinds of math and algorithms, and tried to 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.760 systematize it. And they did a really really, really good 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.680 job using the tools that they had and the brains 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:42.480 on their heads. But I think Zuckerberg never really thought 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.600 of himself needing to be a zillionaire that he is. 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:50.920 But that's actually kind of true about almost every super 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.920 successful entrepreneur in Silicon Valley that I've run into. The 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.600 ones that really see building a company as a get 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:02.720 rich quick mechanism are the ones that don't usually do 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.800 so well. The guys that do really well are the 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:10.200 guys that build companies because they're not set up to 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:13.960 do anything else. It's like breathing today. And yet it 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.800 creates a conundrum of sorts, which is where Facebook is now. 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:21.880 I think Zuckerberg writes this essay, this three thousand word 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.119 essay that's kind of vague. It sounds really nice, but 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:26.840 about how the company is going to be a lot 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.440 more privacy focused going forward, and it's realized that people 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.520 people need privacy. Yet at the same time, the company 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.720 makes its money off selling our personal data off advertising. 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.480 And so one critic responded to the piece. He wrote 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:43.600 that the essay is a power grab disguised as an 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.639 act of contrition. Do you think that's fair? Is that no? 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.760 I think it's totally fair. I actually think that one 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.720 of the things that Zuckerberg has done, very very very 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:58.040 well has been to master the art of apologizing. Zuckerberg's 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:03.119 gift beyond engineering, and maybe even more than his gift 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:07.200 of engineering, is to understand that humans care a lot 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.240 less about privacy than they say they do, and a 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.880 lot more about interacting with each other than they say 0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:16.800 they do. You think that's still true today. I think 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.400 that that's still true today. I think that that's when 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:23.800 you kind of cut right through it. That's Zuckerberg's incredible brilliance. Basically, 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.040 when you think about the history of Facebook, this rea 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.800 Facebook is. It is of Zuck doing all kinds of 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:33.600 things to push people to do things that initially they 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.960 thought seemed awful and preposterous and that they didn't want 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.760 to do, and Zuck telling them to breathe, and them 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:45.000 breathing and realizing that he was giving them something that 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.720 they really wanted. It's happened again and again and again 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:53.320 and again. It's astonishing when you think about it. Think 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:57.080 about Facebook when it started fifteen years ago. The idea 0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:59.720 that you would put all your personal information on some 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.199 the server and connect with a bunch of people that 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.240 you knew and didn't know. It's like nobody would have 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.399 done that. It was like it seemed preposterous. The idea 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:13.080 of Facebook seemed completely preposterous. Interesting, how far he's moved us, Right, 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.399 He's moved us because he understood us better than we 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:20.840 understand ourselves. But doesn't that create a problem today if 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.400 there is and maybe based on what you're saying, it's 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.199 more of an if than an absolute, If there is 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:30.320