WEBVTT - Did Hunter Biden Get a Sweetheart Deal? 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:14.080 It made him a very good deal and he shucked 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:15.520 it up like a hoover belocked. 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.200 Senator John Kennedy was just one of the Republicans saying 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.800 Hunter Biden got a sweetheart deal that will likely allow 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.560 him to avoid time behind bars on tax and gun charges. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:30.639 Although Attorney General Merrick Garland maintains that he kept his 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:35.680 promise not to interfere with US Attorney David Weisse's investigation 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.360 and charging decision for the president's son. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.000 So as I said from the moment of my appointment 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.360 as Attorney General, I would leave this matter in the 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.120 hands of the United States Attorney who was appointed by 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.720 the previous president and assigned to this matter by the 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.080 previous administration, that he would be given full authority to 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.480 decide the matter as he decided that was appropriate. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.800 After a five year investigation. The deal calls for Hunter 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.679 Biden's son to plead guilty to two misdemeanor counts of 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.840 failing to pay taxes and accept court imposed conditions that 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.840 will allow him to avoid prosecution on a felony gun charge. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.720 Joining me is former federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.760 at Macarter and English Weiss's office, said the tax charges 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.080 each come with a maximum sentence of twelve months and 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.600 that the gun charge carries up to ten years incarceration. 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.840 So Republicans have lasted the agreement, saying he's getting away 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:38.200 with this slap on the wrist. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.600 What do you think, Well, the investigation here has been 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.640 conducted by David Weiss, who was the US Attorney for 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:51.120 the state of Delaware appointed by President Trump, and President 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:55.760 Biden allowed him to continue over into his administration, specifically 0:01:55.800 --> 0:02:00.040 so that he can continue this investigation into the president's son. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.480 And according to the Attorney General Merrick Garland, who testified 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.080 before Congress about this ongoing investigation, he said that he 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.959 gave mister Weiss full authority and independence to decide whether 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.160 to bring charges against mister Biden's son on which charges 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.760 to bring. So there is at least an appearance of 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.000 independence by this US attorney in these charging decisions. But 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:24.400 as you point out, the investigation really boiled down to 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.200 two issues at the end of the day. Here. One 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.800 was whether to indict Hunter Biden in connection with his 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.760 failure to meet filing deadlines for his twenty seventeen at 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.160 twenty eighteen taxes and whether he didn't properly claimed about 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.239 thirty thousand dollars in deductions for business expenses. Mister Weiss 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.960 said that mister Biden had earned more than one point 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.320 five million in each of those years, but failed to 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.760 pay income taxes during those years, which amotters to about 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.000 one hundred thousand dollars each year. Mister Biden subsequently paid 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.400 that overdue bill in twenty twenty one. The second issue 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.680 was one having to do with the purchase of a gun. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:02:59.600 At the time. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.040 Biden had filled out a government format every individual has 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.320 to when purchasing a handgun, stating that he was not 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:08.960 using drugs, and it was a parent from his erratic 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.960 activity that mister Biden did have a drug issue at 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.680 the time he purchased that weapon. So those are the 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.679 two issues that ultimately this investigation came down to. But 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.240 let's bear in mind that the investigation started off with 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.520 a much broader mandate. Mister Weiss was given authority to 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:30.200 investigate mister Biden's activities regarding an array of issues, including 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.000 his dealings with Chinese investors, his work with Barisma, a 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.200 Ukrainian energy company on whose board he served while his 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.240 father was Vice president, and at that time Vice President 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.120 Biden was overseeing the Obama administration's policy towards Ukraine. So 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.920 these are large issues that have been within the ambit 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.200 of mister Weiss's investigation, but at least to date, no 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.120 charges have been brought in connection with any of those issues, 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.080 and now we're facing only these two relatively minor issues 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.440 involving taxes and involving the purchase of a handgun. 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.600 Some legal experts said that the use of a diversion 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:11.800 agreement to resolve the gun charge was creative and fairly unusual, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:16.880 and Republican Senator Mike Lee retweeted criticisms of the agreement 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.520 and said that pre trial diversion programs normally exclude offenses 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:26.640 involving the brandishing of a firearm. Is that diversion agreement unusual? 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.880 Well, it is unusual for federal prostituts to use diversion 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.680 agreements at all, and it also is unusual for federal 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.560 prosecutors to charge misdemeanors. When I was a federal prosecutor 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.120 for almost ten years, I could probably tell you on 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.120 a single hand how many times misdemeanors were charged. Generally, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.120 if it doesn't amount to a felony, prosecutors on the 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.760 federal level are not going to bother pursuing it, given 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.520 the limited resources that they have. But this is a 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.560 very high profile case that was being watched very closely 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.200 by the American public and by politicians on Capitol Hill, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.120 and so I think there was a lot of pressure 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.880 for the US Attorney here to bring charges if there 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.960 were provable charges, and here there definitely were provable charges. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.159 The facts regarding the failure to pay taxes were really 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.920 never in dispute, and the misstatement and the purchase of 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.200 the handgun was also something that was not disputed. But 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.359 these are charges that prosecutors will rarely bring because they're frankly, 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.880 just not that serious, and generally prosecutors are not going 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.000 to devote resources to something that doesn't amount to at 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:30.800 least one felony charge. 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.440 Now, a judge, you'll have the final say on any sentence. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.039 In April, an IRS supervisor who'd been overseeing the Hunter 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:44.800 Biden investigation went to Congress and alleged political favoritism in 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.840 how the investigation was handled. We know that Congressional Republicans 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:54.440 are still investigating Hunter Biden, So could the judge wait 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.799 to decide whether or not to accept the deal until 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.000 some of these investigations are well. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.080 It's possible the judge can really do whatever he or 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.520 she wants to do here. But typically if the Department 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.679 of Justice is recommending a particular plea deal, it's rare 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.480 for judges not to accept it. I will tell you 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:16.920 that it does happen. It has happened a handful of 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.720 times if a judge believes that the government is essentially 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.919 giving away the store, or there's something improper about the 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.159 deal that the government has struck with a defendant. But generally, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.200 judges rely on the discretion of prosecutors to make the 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.960 right decision, and there's lots of factors that can ultimately 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.160 go into a decision about how to charge a particular 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.919 case or whether to bring charges at all in the 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.440 first place. So this is going to be something that 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.880 I think everybody's going to watch carefully to see what 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.560 the judge does. But I think it's unlikely that the 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.440 judge is not going to agree to it, particularly since 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.240 it is being recommended by mister Weiss, who was a 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.039 Trump appointed US attorney and who by all accounts, had 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.719 complete independence in terms of whether or not to bring 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.400 these charges on ultimately what charges to bring. 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:05.640 No doubt this is going to continue to be a 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:10.120 political issue as the campaigns progress. But do you think 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:12.640 it's sort of been a litmus test for the Justice 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.640 Department about how it would handle this kind of politically 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:17.880 explosive case. 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.880 Well, these kinds of cases historically have been very difficult 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.720 for the Department of Justice to handle because of the 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:28.080 post familiar relationship between the defendant and the president of 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.520 the United States. We can think back on other presidents 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.960 who had family members who were subject to criminal prosecutions, 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.320 and it always is awkward because no matter what you do, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.840 it seems like there's something improper. If they give a 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.880 deal that seems to be too lenient, people are complaining 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.160 that the president or the White House and political operatives 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.440 interfered with the Department of Justice decisions. 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:50.320 If the Department of Justice. 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.760 Is aggressive, other people will say that is being done 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.240 in order to make a political statement. So it's a 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.320 tough line for prosecutors to walk in this case. But 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.000 at the end, they have to look at the fact, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.560 they have to look at the circumstances that are unique 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.040 to each case and decide what they think is an 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.560 appropriate resolution. This was a case that was being negotiated 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.640 between mister Biden's lawyer and the Department of Justice for many, 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:13.720 many months, and there, no doubt was a lot of 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.440 back and forth here between the Department of Justice and 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.119 mister Biden's lawyers as to whether or not there should 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.360 be criminal charges at all, and if so, which ones 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.760 he should ultimately have to be flead guilty to Bob. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.920 I want to turn for a moment to the upcoming 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.520 criminal trial of former President Donald Trump on the Classified 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.680 Documents charges. Judge Eileen Cannon issued an order for the 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.800 trial to begin on August fourteenth. What are the chances 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.640 it will actually start. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.880 On that day, Well, it's unlikely that it will start 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.880 that day. Typically, judges will set a date that is 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.200 within what's called the Speedy Trial Act, and that means 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.760 that once a defendant is indicted, the defendant has a 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.280 right to a trial within seventy days. In other words, 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.520 the Department of Justice and the federal prosecutors have to 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.000 be ready to go once they pull the trigger on 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.000 an indictment. They can indicted, defend it and then say, oh, 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:05.800 we need a year a year and a half to 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.240 continue to investigate this case before we're ready to go 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.640 to trial. So the Speedy Trial Act is there to 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.920 protect defendants right to a speedy trial in the event 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:15.959 they want the government to go to trial as soon 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.280 as possible. But what happens typically and what's undoubtedly going 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.880 to happen in this case, is that the defense does 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.480 not want a speedy trial, and the defense wants to 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.199 delay and draw out the trial. And in this case, 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.680 there's an ample number of issues that I think we're 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.280 going to see that will result in a delay of 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.840 that trial date, perhaps months, perhaps even longer before this 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:36.679 case actually. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:37.040 Goes to trial. 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.160 So the special counsel Jack Smith, appears to be trying 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.160 to keep to a speedy trial schedule. He started turning 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.720 over evidence to Trump's legal team, including grand jury testimony 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:54.840 of witnesses. How much more complicated is this case because 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.040 of the classified documents? 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:01.000 The fact that there's classified documents in this case does 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.920 make it more complicated than the vast majority of cases 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.960 that go to trial in federal court, and for starters, 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.960 there's going to be delayed built into this trial because 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:14.319 although the government is beginning to turn over evidence as 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.560 it has to in discovery to the Defense Council. The 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.320 defense lawyers here have to obtain security clearance in order 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.320 to look at much of this classified evidence, which means 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.640 they have to undergo a background check, a process to 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.600 obtain clearances in order to look at these documents. And 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.160 that's a slow process that easily can take months before 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.760 the defense lawyers can even begin to look at the 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.920 classified documents that are evidenced in this trial. So that's 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.800 one reason this case is going to be delayed second 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.840 reason it's going to be delayed further is also related 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.559 to the classified evidence that's at the heart of this case, 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.800 because there's going to be, in parallel to what we 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.960 see in open court the public proceedings, there's going to 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:57.520 be a secret litigation that goes on in this case 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.000 where the defense lawyers, the prosecutors, and the judge, out 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.360 of the public view, are going to discuss how the 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.240 classified documents are going to be handled a trial. That's 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.280 going to be something that's handled under what's called the 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.160 Classified Information Procedures Act, and that is an act which 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.920 controls how classified information may be given out into the 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.880 general public, and that's going to be an ongoing negotiation 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.400 with prosecutors, with the defense counsel, and with the judge. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.480 And ultimately, if prosecutors are unhappy with any of the 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.280 rulings that Judge Canon may hand down in connection with 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.560 these classified documents, they have the right to appeal that 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.640 immediately to the US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.800 Circuit in Atlanta. So if they decide that they want 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.319 to appeal one of these rulings, they have the right 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.120 to do it. But that's going to delay the trial 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:44.720 even further. 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:49.000 Bob. Why do the defense attorneys have to examine all 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.640 these documents? Why isn't it enough to know that they're 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.200 MAREK classified mark top secret? I mean, why do they 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.960 have to go into what's in them? 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.319 Well, it's just it's the bedrock principle of our judicial 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.120 system that if the government is going to rely on documents, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.720 the defense has a chance to look at them. Now, 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.520 the government is going to argue, no doubt to the 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.440 trial judge that those documents can be redacted, so essentially 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.120 certain classified portions of them can be blocked out because 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.320 they're going to make the very argument that you just 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.200 alluded to which is to say, there's enough information in 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:28.000 these documents to prove that they're classified. We don't necessarily 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.160 have to show every detail in open court. But on 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.200 the other hand, in order to make this a compelling case, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.720 prosecutors are going to want the public to know and 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.440 specifically the jury to know the general type of information 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.080 that they are alleging was maintained at former presidents Trump's 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.679 club at Mara a Lago, and they are already alluded to, 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.520 generally the type of information that is very sensitive to 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.600 national security. They've alluded to documents that had to do 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.880 with Iran, They've alluded to documents that had to do 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.440 with some of our chief allies in the world, and 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.440 they be alluded to documents that have to do with 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.040 steps that the US military would take in the event 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.360 of an attack from somebody outside the country. So this 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.400 is the kind of stuff that's very important to the 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.160 prosecution because they have to show jurors that not only 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.440 did former President Trump willfully violate the law with regard 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.440 to this classified information, but they also have to convince 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.120 them why it matters. They have to show them that 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.840 not only was this information something that he should not 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:31.839 have taken out of the White House, that he should 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.480 have returned when the government asked that he return it, 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.920 but by not doing so, he placed the national security 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.640 of the country at risk at risk. 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.680 What other kinds of motions do you think we'll see, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.960 selective prosecution, prosecutorial misconduct, anything like that. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.880 Yeah, We're going to see an array of motions coming 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.480 from the defense, and these are pre trial motions, so 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.439 these are motions that the judge will have to decide 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.480 before the trial even began. And we can expect to 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.800 see some type of motions regarding alleged prosecutoral misconduct where 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.160 they're going to say prosecutors acted improperly in front of 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.560 the Grand jurian some way. We're going to certainly see 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.959 an argument that performer President Trump is the victim of 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.920 what's called selective prosecution. That essentially is an argument that 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.280 I'm being prosecuted for conduct that others who committed the 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.440 very same conduct are not being prosecuted for. This is 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.520 going to be raised, most likely in connection with the 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.040 failure of the Department of Justice to prosecute former Secretary 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.560 of State Hillary Clinton when she had classified information found 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.440 on a server in her home. That's something that will 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.360 be raised. It's unlikely, frankly, to succeed. Generally, in order 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.080 to prevail on a selective prosecution argument, you have to 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.080 show that you are being singled out for some kind 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.120 of improper reason. Typically it's because of your race, or 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.440 your religion, or some kind of protected class, but it 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.000 will certainly be raised by the defense. I think one 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.400 of the issues that will be raised that perhaps has 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.600 the most likelihood of gaining some kind of traction has 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.480 to do with a motion that the government made before 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.640 this case was ever indicted, in front of a judge 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.800 in the District of Columbia to get documents and to 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.600 get keep recordings made by one of former President's arms 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:27.320 prior lawyers. Typically, conversations between a defendant and their lawyer 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.280 are covered by the attorney client privilege. That that's so 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.800 that defense lawyers and their clients can discuss their case 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.720 freely and not fear that those conversations will ultimately be 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.600 used against a defendant. But there's something called the crime 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.880 fraud exception, which is something that allows prosecutors to get 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.440 at those very conversations if they can convince a judge 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.720 that those conversations were not about defending past conduct but 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:57.200 perpetrating a future crime, and they were successful in convincing 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.520 the district court judge that that is exactly what happening. 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.240 And so those tapes and those conversations were turned over 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.920 to prosecutors and now form one of the critical basies 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.520 for the obstruction charge in the indictment against former President Trump. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:14.920 So I think we're going to see that issue raised again, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.680 and the judge in Florida will have a chance to 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.640 look at that issue and make her own decision about 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.320 whether or not the crime fraud exception was appropriate and 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.600 whether prosecutor should have gotten access to those conversations between 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.880 former President Trump and his former attorney. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:35.640 So, former President Trump gave a lengthy interview with Fox 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.320 that was broadcast on Monday, and he suggested that he'd 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.160 been too busy and that he wanted to be sure 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.800 he retrieved his personal belongings before complying with the federal 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.600 government's repeated demands and even a subpoena. He said these 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:56.160 boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things, golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:01.200 Isn't he making an admission that he deliberately kept the 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.760 papers from the government, Well. 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.880 It's a little hard to understand exactly what the defense 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.160 that former President Trump was trying to assert during that interview, 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:14.240 And it's hard to believe that his lawyers agreed for 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.840 him to go on and make those statements, because typically, 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.200 as a defense lawyer, you do not want your client 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.959 making public statements about the case because prosecutors are watching 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.520 those statements and all of that can be used against 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.200 your client at a trial down the road. So it's 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.760 likely that the decision to appear at that interview was 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.439 not something that was sanctioned or encouraged by former President 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.359 Trump's lawyers. On the other hand, we are going to 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.240 see this case played out on two fronts, inside the 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.719 courtroom and also in the court of public opinion. And 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.920 former President Trump was no doubt playing to the court 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.240 of public opinion. He knows that people are watching this 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.080 case very carefully and they are listening to every statement 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:56.679 he makes regarding his conduct. And of course he has 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.480 attacked both the special counsel and the indictment as being 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.679 politically motivated, and I think those interviews are just a 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:08.160 further attempt to try to delegitimize both the prosecutor and 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.800 the prosecution itself. To the extent that he ultimately reaches 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.520 individuals who might find their way into a jury pool 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.360 for this case, that could ultimately be a successful defense 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.359 in the sense that his lawyers may ultimately convince even 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.080 one juror not to convict on the basis of jury nullification. 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:29.920 In other words, if a jury is convinced that, even 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.320 if everything the prosecution says is true, this is a 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.200 case that never should have been brought, they may vote 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.159 against the conviction even though the government may have proven 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:41.800 their case beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.400 Yeah, because he continued to insist that he had every 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.719 right to have those boxes and that he declassified everything 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.360 that he had. And I don't think that his defense 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.480 lawyers have ever used any of those in a courtroom. 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.480 So do you think that they might still bring it 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.760 up a try I'll and just try to throw everything 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:02.240 out there. 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.199 Well, you know, one of the big questions for this 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.560 trial is going to be whether or not former President 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.760 Trump takes the stand in his own defense. If he does, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.560 he certainly will be cross examined by prosecutors as to 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.080 all of these public statements, and I think it's going 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.040 to be difficult for him to defend his position and 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.200 so I think what he's doing is trying to sway 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.879 public opinion and trying to appeal to the jury pool 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.120 in South Florida specifically in the hopes that he may 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.600 convince one or more jurors that this prosecution should never 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.359 have been brought in the first place, and that's going 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.920 to make it much more difficult for prosecutors to ultimately 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.159 get a conviction here. I do think that some of 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.280 the statements that form President Trump has made publicly and 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.560 in interviews after his indictment may ultimately be damaging to 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.320 his case said trial, because remember, this is not a 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.600 case about which documents former President Trump took with him 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.000 from the White House. Prosecutors are going to instead focus 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.199 the jury on the quest of what former President Trump 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.640 did after prosecutors and after the government demanded the return 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.000 of those documents. And that's really something that I think 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.760 is different than the question of whether it's classified or 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.359 not classified, because regardless of whether it's classified or not, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.399 if federal prosecutors issue a subpoena and demand that you 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.679 return every document that has the classified label affixed to it, 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.719 you have to return it, regardless of ultimately whether that 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:28.919 information was classified. 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:29.199 Or not. 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.560 And so I think former President Trump is trying to 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:33.639 convince the public that he did nothing wrong, that he 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.600 was entitled to keep these documents. The battle lines will 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.520 be drawn when prosecutors try to refocus the jury not 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:42.720 on the question of whether this information was classified or not, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:44.399 not on the question so much as to whether or 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.359 not President Trump was even committed a crime by removing 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:50.800 those documents from the White House in the first place, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.240 but whether or not once he was requested to return 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.720 those documents, he obstructed justice. He got others to lie 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.920 on his behalf about those documents and whether he actively 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.919 misled federal prosecutors about the fact that he continued to 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.640 retain classified and national security sensitive documents at his club 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.480 in mar A Lago and after a prosecutors first requested 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.600 it through the National Archives, then requested it through a 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.879 federal grand jury subpoena, and ultimately resorted to a search 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:21.920 word in order to try to recover those documents. 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.159 Thanks so much for your insides, Bob. That's former federal 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:30.560 prosecutor Robert Mens, our partner McCarter and English. 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:32.560 Call to me, kalt me. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:40.720 Else have far as to protect dwarfs their minds men 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.240 their fields of grain, but we harfoots of. 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:52.879 Each other, dodness will lot of facius. 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.520 It would be easy and not just as all people. 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.600 The sequel The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:13.720 Power brought back the Middle Earth of fantasy novelist J. R. R. Tolkien, 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:18.360 with its elves, dwarfs, harfoots, and humans to Amazon viewers. 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.560 It was the most expensive television show ever made, with 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.720