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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of thruth. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we returned

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Speaker 1: to the subject of kenemine and kenemine assistant psychotherapy. Today's

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Speaker 1: guest is Dr Gitavaid. I've known you for a few years.

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Speaker 1: I heard her speak at the Horizon Psychedelics conference in

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Speaker 1: New York a month ago. She of a brilliant talk,

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Speaker 1: really talking about the role of kenamine in psychotherapy and

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Speaker 1: how it's changing the way we think about psychoanalysis and

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Speaker 1: psychotherapy and psychiatry, and so I wanted to really get

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Speaker 1: into this with her about what that's all about, What

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Speaker 1: are the benefits, how does it work, how does it

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Speaker 1: compare to other psychedelics and I should tell you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's a key figure nationally in this now, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you you google her, you'll see all over the place.

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Speaker 1: She's a member of the Mount Sinai Psychedelic Psychotherapy Research Group.

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Speaker 1: She's a leader instructor at the Kenemine Training Center. She's

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Speaker 1: a co founder of the Center for Natural Intelligence, which

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Speaker 1: is a multi disappointed lab that's dedicated to psychedelic psychotherapy,

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Speaker 1: innovation and clinical practice. So she is truly one of

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Speaker 1: the world's leading experts in this. So, Gita, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me today. Well, thank you for

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Speaker 1: inviting me to come and talk and psychoactive with you. Ethan,

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Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to be here. Well, I'm really glad

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Speaker 1: you're here. So let's just start off by by setting

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Speaker 1: this date. So you just explain in Layman's terms as

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Speaker 1: best you can, what is kenemine actually what distinguishes it

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Speaker 1: from opioids or normally antidepressants or other drugs used for

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Speaker 1: an anesthesiology. I mean, what what is it? I think

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Speaker 1: that really there's different ways we look at medicines. You

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Speaker 1: look at the neurotransmitters they're working on, and in that way,

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Speaker 1: kenemine is a little bit of a dirty drug because

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Speaker 1: it hits a bunch of different receptors. But I would

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Speaker 1: say what's different about it um in high doses you

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Speaker 1: can really have anesthetic effects. In lower doses is what

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Speaker 1: I'm more interested in is it's kind of has its

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Speaker 1: psychedelic properties, which I feel are incredibly important aspect of

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Speaker 1: work in psychiatry and psychotherapy for expanded states of consciousness.

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Speaker 1: But at lower doses, I oftentimes wonder is dissociation the

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Speaker 1: right word, because sometimes I feel like it can be

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Speaker 1: at higher doses where you have that disconnect action, but

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Speaker 1: also I feel like there's a differentiation almost that happens

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Speaker 1: where you can actually have more access to parts of

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Speaker 1: yourself and more of almost distinguishing that allows one to

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Speaker 1: access more fully different parts of oneself. So it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting term, but it has been used as a dissociative anesthetic. Basically,

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Speaker 1: if somebody's having surgery, it basically allows that person to

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Speaker 1: feel that the part of their body that's being operated

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Speaker 1: on is sort of separate from the rest of themselves. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think at the high doses you just kind of

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Speaker 1: lose consciousness completely, so you're you know, completely outright and

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Speaker 1: in you know and lower doses you kind of don't

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Speaker 1: feel your body. You feel like sometimes people even have

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Speaker 1: the experiences and low doses of not having a body

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Speaker 1: or being out at their body or hovering over their

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Speaker 1: body until they suddenly have no consciousness at all, you know,

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Speaker 1: And you can tailor it to drop out of thinking

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Speaker 1: mind and to travel through the different layers of self

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Speaker 1: to beyond self until you kind of go further and

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Speaker 1: further out to having no awareness. And is it using

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Speaker 1: combination with other drugs, whether it's in surgery or pay

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Speaker 1: management or treating depression. Oftentimes it is used as a

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Speaker 1: cocktail in anesthesia and also even in psychiatry, you know,

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Speaker 1: certainly Spravado, which is the only fday proved version of ketamine,

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Speaker 1: they use it with other antidepressants as part of their

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Speaker 1: protocol for treatment resistant depression. And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: nice things about ketamine is that it has very few

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Speaker 1: interactions with other antidepressants, so it does allow one to potentially,

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Speaker 1: if necessary, combined with other medications. And does that also

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Speaker 1: mean when it is being used also illicitly that unlike

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Speaker 1: say alcohol or opioids or benzos, where if you combine

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Speaker 1: them with one another, some other drugs can be very dangerous.

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Speaker 1: That ketamine is maybe more like marijuana in the sense

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Speaker 1: that you're not going to be dying from a mixture.

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Speaker 1: That's a really good point. Yes, it's it really helps

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Speaker 1: with the safety of it because you don't have to

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Speaker 1: worry so much about them bumping up other levels with

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Speaker 1: most of the compounds or else. What can happen with

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Speaker 1: some of the other psychedelics, a blocking effect where you

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Speaker 1: have very little efficacy because another drug that's working on

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Speaker 1: serotonin is in the air and interferes aciddenly happens with

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Speaker 1: the ss rise for example, and psilocybin or some of

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Speaker 1: the classic psychedelic medicines. So it's really helpful for being

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Speaker 1: able to have much more control over what you're dosing

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Speaker 1: and fewer side effects and interactions. It just tell us

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Speaker 1: a little something about the diversity of ways in which

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Speaker 1: kenemine has been used outside the psychotherapeutic context. I mean

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Speaker 1: it used to be describing the media is the animal tranquilizer, right,

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Speaker 1: But it's also been used widely around the world, I

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Speaker 1: think in pain management. It's been used in medicine on

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Speaker 1: the battle fields. Well, kean has an interesting history because

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Speaker 1: it did start off being developed as an anesthetic, and

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Speaker 1: so it has a really interesting background and that it

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Speaker 1: kind of entered into the psychedelic world in medicine through

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Speaker 1: a whole different route, which I think makes it very

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Speaker 1: unique and has had a lot of implications and how

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Speaker 1: it's being practiced in the current moment. It's a very

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Speaker 1: powerful anesthetic and it's one that's very unusual because you

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Speaker 1: don't have to worry about its cardiovascular effects or its

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Speaker 1: respiratory depression, so it makes it very versatile and easy

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Speaker 1: to use not only for surgeries, but also in the battlefield,

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Speaker 1: almost like the body system because you don't have to

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Speaker 1: have such intense monitoring. It's also effective for pain and analgesia,

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Speaker 1: so it's used in the emergency room. It's been used

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Speaker 1: very safely and studied with children who seem to do

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Speaker 1: much better with what they call the emergent phenomena or

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Speaker 1: the psychedelic phenomena. So it has, you know, had a

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Speaker 1: lot of use in ears operating room around the world,

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Speaker 1: and it's in those contexts very widely available and very affordable.

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Speaker 1: And remember, you know, there's all the stuff back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties, I think in the kind of rave scenes

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Speaker 1: and then also in the gay club scene in New York, remember,

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Speaker 1: in other places, so it had that other role right

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Speaker 1: of being a popular as a kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: party drug. And also I think it's gotten a bit

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Speaker 1: of a bad reputation even though it's been used a

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Speaker 1: lot in the rave scene and as a party drug,

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Speaker 1: because you know, in higher doses one can have what's

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Speaker 1: called a cahole or kind of actually pass out on

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Speaker 1: the floor. It's a very unattractive look, which I think

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Speaker 1: hasn't really represented kennemine well because I think it's gotten

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Speaker 1: worse reputation and perhaps other recreational drugs. I was watching

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Speaker 1: recently Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, the TV show by Hamilton Morris, and

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Speaker 1: he has an episode on kenemine, and he's talking with

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Speaker 1: somebody who has been deeply committed to kenemine for for decades,

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Speaker 1: and one of the points he makes is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the odd thing about kennemine is it doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: kind of coherent narrative historically in the way to say

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Speaker 1: l s D or even mushrooms or peyote do, and

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Speaker 1: that maybe there's something about it's incredibly varied uses and

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Speaker 1: reputations and context men that somehow it avoided the labeling

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Speaker 1: or the stigmatizing to the same degree as other psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and and and it's all typically did not become criminalized

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Speaker 1: in the same way. What do you think about that.

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's true. I think it has kind

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Speaker 1: of evaded some of those kind of connotations. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, it has stuck with some of a different

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Speaker 1: kind of reputational kind of flavor, such as it being

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Speaker 1: an anesthetic or tranquilizer. But it has kind of checkerboard

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Speaker 1: past I would say. And when we're talking about different applications,

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Speaker 1: I can't resist mentioning how ketamine was also the drug

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Speaker 1: used to rescue the tai boys who were trapped in

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Speaker 1: the cave. Do you remember that event vaguely? Tell us, Well,

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Speaker 1: they were like some kids who were trapped in a

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Speaker 1: cave and they had to rescue them, and they used

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Speaker 1: ketamine as the anesthetic to be able to get them

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Speaker 1: out of these caves that I think had collapsed at

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Speaker 1: the time. And once again, you know, it's used really

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Speaker 1: well with children as an anesthetic. But that was an

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Speaker 1: interesting way. Kenemine also showed up in the news. Uh huh,

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Speaker 1: you know you said before their children deal with the

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Speaker 1: psychoactive effects maybe better than adults. I get is that

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Speaker 1: what was that the point you were saying, and that

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Speaker 1: therefore this is one of those ones where there might

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Speaker 1: be a lot more latitude for administering kennemine to children

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Speaker 1: into teens. I won't know if it's even latitude, as

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Speaker 1: much as it's been used really comfortably with children, and

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Speaker 1: even now and e os is used because it's so

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Speaker 1: safe and shorter acting and well tolerated, and kids don't

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Speaker 1: get disturbed by the kind of psychedelic experiences. Maybe because

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Speaker 1: their minds and their subjective experiences are much more fluid,

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Speaker 1: they seem to roll with it a lot more comfortably

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Speaker 1: than adults who are not prepared for it. You can

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Speaker 1: have really strange visitations with aliens and get freaked out

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Speaker 1: pretty easily, particularly they're not expecting them and they're just

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Speaker 1: sort of going in for a procedure. I see, So

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Speaker 1: like when kids, he's an Alien's like, hey, like what right? Well,

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Speaker 1: so now I guess to to move forward. Then is

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Speaker 1: it what ten fifteen years ago, when research really begins

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Speaker 1: to emerge that ketamine can be remarkably effective in dealing

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Speaker 1: with intractable depression. Yes, it's been really interesting to see

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Speaker 1: the studies at Yale where they recognized it for its

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Speaker 1: antidepressant property, and I think that's really where this groundbreaking

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Speaker 1: research started. And I think that really kind of opened

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Speaker 1: up an important movement I think in psychiatry. When there's

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Speaker 1: been such a paucity of new antidepressants or treatment approaches

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Speaker 1: for such a long time, as depression is escalating at

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Speaker 1: a very very unfortunate rate, how did they come up

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Speaker 1: with the idea of thinking about kenemine to treat depression.

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Speaker 1: Was it that they were seeing that people were giving

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Speaker 1: ketamine for other reasons just seemed to benefit in terms

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Speaker 1: of mood? I mean where that is that where the

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Speaker 1: hints were well, I think it was record noised also

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Speaker 1: from anesthesia, the observations of the antidepressant effect in individuals

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Speaker 1: who were receiving recognitions, which is where a lot of

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Speaker 1: these findings emerge. That you kind of start paying attention

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Speaker 1: and taking notes. So for you, Dr Geteraveid, tell me

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Speaker 1: about your evolution into this. Is it that you yourself

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Speaker 1: were using, you know, experimenting various psychedelics and curious about

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Speaker 1: them and tried ketamine. Um, for personal use. Was it

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Speaker 1: a professional frustration in what you could accomplish as a

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Speaker 1: psychotherapist dealing with your patients through traditional models of analysis?

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Speaker 1: I mean, how what brought you to ketamine? Actually it's

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Speaker 1: none of those answers. I was working very well in

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Speaker 1: my private practice in New York City as a psychiatrist

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Speaker 1: and a psychoanalyst, really enjoying my work. So there was

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Speaker 1: definitely no frustration and I felt very gratified by the

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Speaker 1: work I was doing, but a very interest in the

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Speaker 1: research that was, you know, coming out about psychedelics and

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Speaker 1: their efficacy, and I think my interest in them really sparked.

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Speaker 1: There was some of my colleagues who were also psychoanalysts

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Speaker 1: that I were working with who are older, really shared

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Speaker 1: with me about their early career experiences. You know, some

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Speaker 1: of them had worked in the sixties. One in politicular,

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Speaker 1: a really good friend of mine. He talked about working

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Speaker 1: with Humphrey Osmond back in the sixties on some of

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Speaker 1: his alcohol studies with LSD and Humphrey Husband, as I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you know, is the Canadian psychiatrist who coined the

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Speaker 1: term psychedelics, and so hearing some of those stories that

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Speaker 1: was extraordinary mind blowing and exciting. So to see and

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Speaker 1: hear this research emerging got me very interested, and through

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Speaker 1: my own work, I met a patient that I saw

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Speaker 1: very infrequently, maybe twice a year, for medication management, and

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Speaker 1: just sitting with him was so different my experience of

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Speaker 1: him that I kept trying to dig around to figure

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Speaker 1: out what had aged in his life. And after spending

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of time asking a bunch of questions

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Speaker 1: and not finding much satisfaction, he finally said, what are

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Speaker 1: you trying to get at? And I said to him

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Speaker 1: exactly as I'm telling you, how different the experience of

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Speaker 1: sitting with him was, and I couldn't account for it

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Speaker 1: because nothing seemed to have changed in his life. And

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Speaker 1: he sort of said, well, how am I different? And

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Speaker 1: I said, I can have emotional contact with you in

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Speaker 1: a way I've never experienced you before. And I've known

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Speaker 1: this man for several years, even though we saw each

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Speaker 1: other relatively and frequently. And he sort of said, well,

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Speaker 1: since you've noticed, i'll explain to you. I'm working with

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Speaker 1: an underground facilitator. And you know, he was an owner

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Speaker 1: gentleman had been also intrigued by the end of life

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Speaker 1: studies and found an underground facilitators and and had amazing results.

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Speaker 1: So I had asked him, would you mind introducing this

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Speaker 1: fellow to me if he's comfortable, And that led to

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Speaker 1: a lot of conversations and you know, research on my

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Speaker 1: own part. And actually, when I first tried these medicines,

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Speaker 1: I had such a huge expansive experience that I was

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Speaker 1: vibrating for a month. But I immediately knew from that

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Speaker 1: experience just having my own access the therapeutic implications. So

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Speaker 1: I immediately was on this path and excited admission to

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Speaker 1: find out everything about it, who was working in the underground,

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Speaker 1: the overground, the research, and wanted to learn everything and

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Speaker 1: get involved with everything. We'll be talking more after we

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Speaker 1: hear this ad So Keita, imagine you don't know me

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Speaker 1: and I come in. I've been diagnosed with intractable depression.

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Speaker 1: What does our interaction look like? And how does that

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Speaker 1: lead into the first session? And how do you decide

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Speaker 1: whether I'm taking it in? What doose are? How? Just

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Speaker 1: walk me through that. I'm happy to do so. So

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Speaker 1: usually I meet someone I would just want to get

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Speaker 1: to know you. I mean, I have been in practice

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Speaker 1: for a long time, so I don't have to go

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Speaker 1: through a checklist. We'd have a nice conversation and I

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Speaker 1: asked you to tell me about yourself so I could

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Speaker 1: understand where you are in your life presently and what's

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Speaker 1: going on, and what needs you into seeing me, and

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Speaker 1: what are you currently dealing with, And in that way,

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get a comprehensive history. I'm also in

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Speaker 1: the moment trying to assess the person's capacities for self reflection, introspection,

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Speaker 1: self knowledge. Do they have a sort of sense of

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Speaker 1: their own narratives, Do they have a sense of the

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Speaker 1: patterns in their life? And so that can pretty much

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Speaker 1: inform right away whether the person might need a little

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Speaker 1: bit more preparation to set the stage for a psychedelic

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Speaker 1: experience or have they already done that. Have they already

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Speaker 1: done enough and have enough skills to really go into

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Speaker 1: a session. So that sort of sets the stage, and

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Speaker 1: that will determine how many sessions we might need. Oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: if someone seems to have a lot of knowledge and awareness,

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Speaker 1: the issue and I have all my questions answered, which

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Speaker 1: sometimes can happen even in the course of the session,

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Speaker 1: the issue gets to be about relationship building and safety.

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Speaker 1: So I will suggest meeting. However, many times makes sense

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Speaker 1: to develop a relationship with a person to let them

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Speaker 1: know who I am, how I work, to explain about

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Speaker 1: the treatment, to understand what they might imagine would happen,

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Speaker 1: to get clear on them, being clear on their obstacles

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Speaker 1: and emphasizing them so that we could understand how this

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Speaker 1: might be a way of them liberating themselves from those patterns,

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Speaker 1: and to sometimes I like to identify them, not even

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Speaker 1: so much as to know that's what we're working on,

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Speaker 1: to go into it as much as the opposite. It

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Speaker 1: sort of turns it upside down to these are the

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Speaker 1: patterns that we want to help you break out of.

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Speaker 1: So after we have that sorted out, it really is

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Speaker 1: about preparing for the session, and on the session itself.

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Speaker 1: A person will come to my office for the three

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Speaker 1: hour session, fasting beforehand and they will come and we

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Speaker 1: will sit and talk. For the first forty five minutes

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Speaker 1: or so, we're really just talking about what's on the

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Speaker 1: person's mind, what to expect, where they are, what's come

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Speaker 1: up for them, and we'll sit with each other so

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Speaker 1: that the person feels comfortable before they're invited to lie

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Speaker 1: on the couch and I'll play music and have eyeshades,

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Speaker 1: and then I will dose them while sharing with them

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Oftentimes, i'll start with a tiny

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Speaker 1: dose because I like to have a testers to know

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Speaker 1: how they're going to respond. A low dose, just to

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Speaker 1: assess how they're doing. Within three minutes it will come on.

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Speaker 1: In that three minutes, I might invite the person to

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Speaker 1: go through a body scan, so I will bring their

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Speaker 1: awareness to their body so they can start focusing on themselves,

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Speaker 1: gather their thoughts, and start the process of really deep

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Speaker 1: listening to themselves. And by the time the medicine comes on,

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Speaker 1: we'll have gone through the body scan. And I like

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Speaker 1: the smaller doses because you can assess how sensitive they

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Speaker 1: are so I can tailor it. If someone's really sensitive,

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Speaker 1: they'll go quite deep. If it's very mild, it's like

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Speaker 1: a bringing themselves into an experience. Their body softens, they

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Speaker 1: start relaxing, the chatter of the mind starts dissolving, and

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Speaker 1: they start becoming more present to themselves. And also they

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Speaker 1: can feel my attention being with them and my presence.

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Speaker 1: I'm just breathing with them, I'm just listening to them.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to listen to how they're doing, what it

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Speaker 1: feels like. You can really feel the energetic shifts between

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Speaker 1: two people, very much like when you have children. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can feel when a child is hyper or when

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Speaker 1: they're relaxed, and where they are. So it's really nice

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Speaker 1: to follow where the person is and the movement of

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Speaker 1: the energy between the person, and then I'll check in

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Speaker 1: with them. If I send someone's anxious, I might intervene earlier,

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Speaker 1: hold their hand, and I'll listen to what the process

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Speaker 1: is like. If someone's in a really beautiful space, I

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Speaker 1: will let them stay where they are and I will

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Speaker 1: check in with them. If they're very mild, I might say,

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Speaker 1: would you mind if I give you a little bit more,

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Speaker 1: and I will adjust it so we can go deeper,

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Speaker 1: but I follow the person's process. If someone's in an

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Speaker 1: ecstatic state and doing incredibly well, I will, you know,

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Speaker 1: just check in with them or stay with them, and

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Speaker 1: when I feel it sort of shifting, I might ask

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Speaker 1: them where they are and what they mind if I

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Speaker 1: give them more to keep them at that platform. And

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Speaker 1: then when the person slowly comes out of the session,

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Speaker 1: I'll encourage them to really take their time to linger

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Speaker 1: in the experience and to notice as much as possible

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Speaker 1: how they start reconstituting, how the anxiety comes back, how

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Speaker 1: the chatter comes back. It's a really interesting way of

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Speaker 1: discovering from leaving yourself of how you put together. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like you start stepping back into yourself and studying

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Speaker 1: the whole structure of yourself from experience, and it's really structural.

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Speaker 1: You'll sometimes people be like, Wow, the anxiety just suddenly

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Speaker 1: lodged back in my chest. It's really shocking how we

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Speaker 1: how we don't usually have a chance to notice how

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Speaker 1: we're assembled, and this is a really amazing discovery. And

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Speaker 1: then at the end of the session, when the person

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Speaker 1: comes out slowly, we'll have a lot of time to

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Speaker 1: sit together and talk about what they experienced, as well

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Speaker 1: as me share with them what I saw happen. We'll

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Speaker 1: try and not to put too much into words, because

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Speaker 1: sometimes that can really condense and squastion experience that is

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Speaker 1: really expensive. But we will cover of the pieces that

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Speaker 1: they may want to share with me, or want to

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Speaker 1: report to me, or have me remember. And I also

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Speaker 1: like to share while we're in that moment, because in

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Speaker 1: that space, it's not only an exchange of really trying

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Speaker 1: to understand what happened both parties, both the patient themselves

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Speaker 1: is in a very open and defended state, as am

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Speaker 1: I in residence. So it's just really nice to be

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Speaker 1: in each other's presence, and that felt sense of being

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Speaker 1: with each other after that experience is incredibly beautiful and

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Speaker 1: very healing. I think in and of itself, it's a

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Speaker 1: very important part of it. And I won't let a

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Speaker 1: person leave my office until they're really safe to leave.

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Speaker 1: When you see a minister, is it always intravene as

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Speaker 1: trip or is it another form? I either use lozenges

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Speaker 1: or intramuscular, But I'm a big fan of intramuscular dosing

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Speaker 1: because I can really tailor it. It's very precise, it

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Speaker 1: comes on in three minutes and I can really give

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Speaker 1: a little bit more or I can't take it away.

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Speaker 1: So I like to really no sensitivity engage that so

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Speaker 1: I can really guide the person. And on the music,

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Speaker 1: is that you determinate or is there a discussion or

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Speaker 1: can I say I don't really like that music, or

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Speaker 1: how does that happen. I'm very open when it comes

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Speaker 1: to music, but I have a playlist that's pretty neutral

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Speaker 1: and I go from there and guide it based on

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Speaker 1: what the person. Sometimes people don't like the music and

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to shift it to what works for them,

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Speaker 1: including I had one person say can I have the

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Speaker 1: rolling Stones? Which I really thought was a bad idea,

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Speaker 1: and it turned out they thought so too. But I

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Speaker 1: was happy to say, well, we can try it, and

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Speaker 1: if it doesn't work out, can we then move it.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's really important to have that be

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Speaker 1: a tuned to the person and the person feel heard.

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Speaker 1: And usually you can tell when the music it really

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Speaker 1: gets into energy and the tone and the quality. If

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Speaker 1: you're listening carefully, it's really quite easy to know where

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Speaker 1: it goes. One of the things that I always keep

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Speaker 1: an eye on is when someone is really open, the

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Speaker 1: music is part of the whole experience. It's it's like

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Speaker 1: we're all vibration, and so it's really an interesting element.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of talking, are some patients talking a

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Speaker 1: lot during this session on other people barely talking at all.

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Speaker 1: Do you encourage some people to talk more to talk less. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's very varied. I really encourage people to do what

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Speaker 1: they feel would be most valuable for them. I do

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Speaker 1: start off with saying, you know, I do sometimes find

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Speaker 1: then when people talk a lot, it can take them

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Speaker 1: out of the session because you know, you're almost in

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Speaker 1: two places in one it can actually limit the space

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Speaker 1: and the involvement going deeper within themselves. Um So I

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Speaker 1: do make that suggestion that if they're comfortable, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to intervene, and feel free not to talk to me.

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Speaker 1: But I also let them know if they would prefer

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Speaker 1: to talk to me, and that facilitates their presence. Have

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Speaker 1: had people want to talk to me because it helps

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Speaker 1: them feel safer to listen and feel really free to

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Speaker 1: do what feels right to them. And it's so variable.

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Speaker 1: I have some people who feel liberated at the chance

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Speaker 1: of not having to be bothered to take care of

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Speaker 1: me and to just focus on themselves. And one person

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Speaker 1: who actually said, I'd prefer you don't talk to me

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Speaker 1: at all and really stay there on my treatment as

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Speaker 1: other people want to talk the whole time. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's standing up can be a little challenging because ketamines

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Speaker 1: effect on balance and wobbly legs and all this. But otherwise,

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Speaker 1: I mean, do people tend to just lie on their

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Speaker 1: back or do they move around, get onto their stomach

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Speaker 1: on their side sit up. Most people lie down, although

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Speaker 1: I have had some people who have to really move

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Speaker 1: and stretch out, so I also keep some mattresses when

429
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: that happens. I oftentimes, when I know that's going to

430
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: be a thing, I have a mattress on the floor

431
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: because it's nice to be able to move for those

432
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 1: who like to move, and it can be really nice

433
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: to move, and some people get very mobile on it,

434
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: so it's so so variable, and then people who are

435
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 1: very active the next session, it can be the complete opposite.

436
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 1: And you learn a lot from observing how their bodies

437
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: move or don't move during the session, absolutely paying really

438
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: close attention to every aspect what they're saying, but also

439
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: the energy in the room, what's happening in their body.

440
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: And oftentimes they're beautiful mood ras. It's almost as a

441
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: communication from their being through their hands and through their

442
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: whole body. But really the hands are very important. In

443
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: Ketamine's sessions. You will oftentimes see expressions moodra's preyful gestures,

444
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: really elegant, almost like prayers from the body, and it's

445
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: really interesting what comes through. It sounds like a lot

446
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,239
Speaker 1: more fun than sitting in a psychotherapist chair. Across from

447
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: somebody on a coult or chair and just having a

448
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: verbal conversation. GETA. Honestly, it really is. It's the most spectacular,

449
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: amazing event. Each one is so unique and so beautifully rich. GETA.

450
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 1: When you're talking to somebody during this Kereemine session, is

451
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: there something fundamentally different about the quality of that compared

452
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: to ordinary psychotherapy without Kenemine. Yeah, I think pretty much everything.

453
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: It's ways of really being in resonance and in contact

454
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: and support and using all of these different modalities to

455
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: do so, and ideally not words because that puts you

456
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: back into your head, and these people when they're on

457
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: when we're on the couch in that stage, you're not

458
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: really in a thinking place, and it's hard to articulate,

459
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: and it's actually hard to think in that cognitive way.

460
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: You know. The session is so remotely different. If I'm

461
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 1: talking to someone, it really is based on checking in

462
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: on them or seeing where they are, or if I'm

463
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: noticing they're anxious, and the communication is different. I might

464
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: choose words, sometimes I might choose the piece of music

465
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: just to touch someone. I'll give you an example. I

466
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: had a fellow who got really, really anxious I could

467
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: feel he was so anxious in the session, and actually

468
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: his body started shaking a little bit, so I kind

469
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: of checked in with him and asked him if he

470
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: was okay, and he didn't seem to be responding to that.

471
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: I asked him if I could hold his hand, which

472
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: I could also feel like he couldn't really receive it.

473
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: Even though he let me do it, I didn't feel

474
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: like it was soothing him. So ultimately I shifted the

475
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: music to what was, you know, a very gentle lullaby,

476
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: and he immediately calmed down, and his whole nervous system

477
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: calmed down. At the end of the session, you know,

478
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: I felt that allowed him to make contact. So that's

479
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: an example of ways of communicating with someone. At the

480
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: end of the session, he told me that, you know,

481
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: we talked about it, and he said he got really

482
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: anxious and felt alone and had memories of being abandoned

483
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: in his crib, and he didn't remember me actually reaching

484
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: out to him or retouching him, but he thought I

485
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: was singing to him. He actually thought the lullaby and

486
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: the music was me singing to him as his mother

487
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: or as myself. It was some confused combination and was

488
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: really shocked, and I think so that he disappointed to

489
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: realize I hadn't sung. And so that's in a good

490
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: example of how it varies and what the communication it's

491
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: like in the process itself. It's an art form. It's

492
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: not cookie cut. It's a little bit like having children.

493
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: If you have a parent who's by the book and

494
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 1: it's just having the person on a schedule that's not

495
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: going to be a great parent. You really have to

496
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: try and listen to someone. And it's really the dance

497
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: between two people. That's where the music is. That's where

498
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: something can happen. And I've always felt this, even when

499
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: I was a regular psychotherapist in New York City with

500
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: none of these psychedelics. I felt we would come together,

501
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: the two people would have this encounter and we would

502
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, what was going on in a

503
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: person's life, and I would listen, and I would often

504
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: offer some clever ideas or interpretations and try and say

505
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: smart things, show I was listening, come up with some

506
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: clever way of understanding and showing how I understood what

507
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: was happening, or some insights into behavior, recognizing almost that

508
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: that was the that was almost the exchange that had

509
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: to happen for something secret that was going to go

510
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: on between the two of us were real other process

511
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: was happening where we could learn to trust each other,

512
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: learned to know each other, and when there were moments

513
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: when the defenses have both dropped in both parties and

514
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: you could have this strong emotional connection, that's where the

515
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: magic would happen. And so that's always been the kind

516
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: of dance of the practice in my experience, and with psychedelics,

517
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: you're right in that field right away. So it's it's

518
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: a really interesting exciting idea to then just go further

519
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: and feel how can you utilize that space better, how

520
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: can you step into it? And to me, it feels

521
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: like it shifts the field into one of a very

522
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: different quality of work. And I do think one thing

523
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: that you hear a lot about in this field is

524
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: the mystic click experience or the liminal kind of experience

525
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: that happens in these in these sublime experiences, because I

526
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: think that's a very important dimension. It does shift the

527
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: healing work into almost spiritual work, and I think we

528
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: need to get better at conceiving of how to how

529
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: to really have methodologies which are not DSM based only,

530
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: but different structures to really house the process better and

531
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: to take advantage of the field that's at play. I mean,

532
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: it sounds like what's similar with other psycholics, I guess

533
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: in some respects is people can obviously derive enormous benefits

534
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: from using these psychedelics, using them all by themselves right

535
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: or with a friend, without being in psychotherapy of any sort.

536
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: And we know that kenemine is sufficiently powerful that even

537
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: when it's done without any psychotherapy, can still have a

538
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: major positive effect in alleviating depression, at least for some

539
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: period of time thereafter. But that the advantage of integrating

540
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: the use of ketamine or the psychedelic with psychotherapy be

541
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: is that you increase the chances of a positive outcome

542
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: and maybe a positive longer outcome, and you decrease the risk.

543
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: Is that a fair sonation. Yeah, I would say that's

544
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: probably fair. At the same time, I would say, as

545
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: much as I think anyone can have a powerful experience

546
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: with ketamine, and I've certainly seen that without any kind

547
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: of preparation really or guidance or limited guidance, let's just

548
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: say I think that at times I do wonder how

549
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: much of that is a bit of a false friend

550
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: in that, yes, you have an experience, but it's almost

551
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: a lost opportunity or even at times can almost close

552
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: the possibility to make make one almost like a little

553
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: bit dulled to the nuances of what's actually being available

554
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: in an experience. So it's almost moves you further away

555
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: from a deeper inquiry, you know. So I have my

556
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: questions about that, actually, I mean, I do see so

557
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: many people use these medicines recreationally, and you know, I

558
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: don't have any kind of questions about that, but I

559
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: do question of people actually getting relief and are they

560
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: actually more enlightened or healthier or is it more of

561
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: making the unbearable bearable, you know what I mean, and

562
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: helping one cope, which is fine, But that's still a

563
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: little bit different than actually a deeper inquiry that could

564
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: be even more useful or more radical in terms of

565
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: possibilities of growth and openings. I mean, it does appear

566
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: that the effect wears off after a couple of weeks,

567
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: and so therefore people come back in sometimes multiple times.

568
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: Is it just very dramatically person or person? Are there

569
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: times when a single session is enough to cure somebody

570
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: of depression for a very long period of time. It's

571
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: incredibly variable as of just an antidepressant. If we're just

572
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: using it as a pure antidepressant with very limited psychotherapy,

573
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: it is going to have limited effects, even though they

574
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: might be the rare person who's just going to have

575
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: a radical experience that sustained. I think that it gets

576
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: to be very different and enhanced when you augmented with psychotherapy,

577
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: when there really is a psychotherapy process. I've had people

578
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: just have very powerful experiences and then have come back

579
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: and needed a second session several months later. Sometimes, you know,

580
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: one session even is so profound that they need a

581
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: lot of time to integrate it. And so it's really

582
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: very variable. But that's not just employing it as an

583
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: one off administration of medicine. That's with a fuller process,

584
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: which which can take, you know, not that much longer.

585
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: You know, my sessions tend to be three hours, so

586
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: there's plenty of time, but it's a different process where

587
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: you're kind of actually having a little bit more of

588
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: these other threads that are in the experience, not only

589
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: a discovery that is tailored to the individual with some

590
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: tools of knowing how to navigate it and they drawn integrated.

591
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: But I think also the experience of being with the

592
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: person and having being seen and having the certain functions provided,

593
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: which I think is what the psychotherapy shifts are. You

594
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: can suddenly have a much different process which can be

595
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: really quite profound and tailored to the individual. I would

596
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: never have guessed, really how much healing is possible with

597
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: these medicines, the creativity, the mysteries, the poetry of people,

598
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: and the natural healing capacities and the wisdom that's held

599
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: in the bodies. I'm every day blown away. Every day

600
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm blown away. I never thought this would have been

601
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: possible in a million years. I am so shocked and

602
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: so blown away, and so in awe of human beings.

603
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: I have to say, I'm just I'm so grateful to

604
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: do my work because I feel like I learned so

605
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: much from people every day, because the intelligence and the

606
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: creativity is just mind blowing to me. Can you give

607
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: me a few, I'm happy too. There's actually two people

608
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: that come to mind who have very different stories, but

609
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: a little bit of an overlap. One is a young

610
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: woman I saw who was quite brilliant at an Ivy

611
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: League college, who had been in tons and tons of

612
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: therapy because she had had a terrible history of two

613
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: rape experiences, once in high school and once early in

614
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: her college life, and you know, had coped well and

615
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: had done tons of therapy over this and felt she

616
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: dealt with it pretty much, even though she was still

617
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: incredibly traumatized and disturbed by the episode and triggered whenever

618
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: there would be events that would ignite recognition, and she

619
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: was in the same environment so that would happen fairly regularly.

620
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: She had the most moving discovery in the session of

621
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: seeing herself as a kind of a woven fabric, and

622
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: she saw there was a stain on the fabric, which

623
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: is where she had the rape. But she also saw

624
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: this intricate fabric with roidry and so much richness and

625
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: so much stitching, and saw how much that stain had

626
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: become her center of gravity and not all the other

627
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: stitches of the whole unfolding tapestry. And she immediately felt

628
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: almost relieved of having to have that be such a

629
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: big force in her life. And she sort of said

630
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: to me, when she was walking over to my office,

631
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: a fellow had said to her, you know, admired her

632
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: and said, you know, something kind of very flattering to her,

633
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: and hadn't asked for her number, hadn't imposed upon her,

634
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: just had complimented her, And she questioned, why wasn't that

635
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: her center of gravity? This generous you know, appreciation of

636
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: who she was, with no strings attached, and she was,

637
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, just so brilliant in her creative ability to

638
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: take possession of her life and re reframe it for

639
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: herself in this most elegant creative way that really stuck

640
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: with her. Another session, which I think is just as powerful,

641
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: is with an older woman who had done a lot

642
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: of practice with yoga, in fact, that was her profession,

643
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: and when she came and did the session, she actually

644
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: had a lot of vibration in her pelvis and felt

645
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: energy was being released from it and saw for herself

646
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: how early childhood rape of her life that she thought

647
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: she had dealt with and put aside, actually was still

648
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: being held in her body, and she felt she was

649
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: able to release it, along with a recognition in ways

650
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: that she could see somehow revealed to her in her experience,

651
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: not in language, but more in images. She had download

652
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: of understanding of how much that event had in fact

653
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: shaped her life. This is a woman in her sixties

654
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: and how much it had impacted her in a myriad

655
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: of ways, culminating with her recognizing how she had kept

656
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: her self small, how she didn't have a voice, how

657
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: she had been afraid, all of which she had been

658
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of oblivious to. And it wasn't a situation of

659
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: feeling sorry for herself. It was more of deep compassion

660
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: for herself and almost an awakening as well as a

661
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: repair simultaneously with the acknowledgingment and the release of some

662
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: of the trauma in her body energetically, of a reclaiming

663
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: of herself. I have to say, what's really moving about

664
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: working with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy ketamine? But I think all

665
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: of the medicines is. It's so beautiful these stories. But

666
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: actually at the end of the session she even looked

667
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: stronger and more self possessed in her being. It wasn't

668
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: just descriptive or intellectual. It was really embodied. And so

669
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: that's another example. I have many examples. It's very exciting work.

670
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: It really allows one to find the essence of oneself

671
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: as well as a disconnect from these narratives or these

672
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: distractions that hijacked her us or are too dominant in

673
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: our lives, so you can have a balance and a

674
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: chance to really, you know, I think, take possession of

675
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: one's life and responsibility or right the chapter of your

676
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,479
Speaker 1: life that you want, instead of being stuck on these

677
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 1: earlier narratives. And I think that's very unique about Academy

678
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: and because it really allows, I think, a way of

679
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: really breaking out of some of these patterns and habits

680
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: and conditioning and being able to open up new possibilities

681
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: in a very direct way. And the way you listen

682
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: and observe your patients has that changed in major ways,

683
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: major ways, you know. I've I've been always a psychoanalyst,

684
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: which is a very particular training for those who don't know.

685
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: Aside from being a psychiatrist and residency training and all

686
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: of that fellowship, it's a whole additional training where you

687
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: have to have a lot of didactics, but in addition

688
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: to that, you have to have your own analysis as

689
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: well as treat a bunch of patients and analysis which

690
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: is endless, four or five days a week on the couch,

691
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: and so it's about a ten year additional training. So

692
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: that's always been my orientation and that has changed completely

693
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: because the work that I did in that domain is

694
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: not enough really if you want to do the deeper process.

695
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: It becomes a different mode of listening, which of course

696
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: requires an equivalent kind of knowledge of yourself with these medicines,

697
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: but I really feel like you can listen with your

698
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: whole being, and you can really meditate with another person

699
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 1: and be in a synchronized state with another person, and

700
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: it's just so exciting the space between two people and

701
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: the knowledge that can come through you. It's a very

702
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: different way of listening. I feel like you can almost

703
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: listen with your soul, or listen with your being and

704
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: here and understand the music of another person, not just

705
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: their mind, which is one thread of what's being communicated

706
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: at any given moment. Let's take a break here and

707
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: go to an ad you know, I mean, my experience

708
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: with ketamine is so limited, but um, you know, last

709
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: year I had an experience with ketamine and it was

710
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: a friend of mine and of yours who's who's also

711
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: doing you know, sket immune sists psychotherapy and offered to

712
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: you know, sit with me for a session. And there

713
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: were a few things that really struck me about it.

714
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: I mean, normally, even when I do say, say mushrooms

715
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: at a very high dose. I mean, where I may

716
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: look psychotic, but even when I do that, I remain

717
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: quite grounded. I know where I am. I don't go

718
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: off into some metisphere or something like that. With ketamine

719
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: was struck me. I mean, after the initial discomfort of

720
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: having to dissolve these lozenges in my mouth because we

721
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: weren't doing I V or I AM administration that when

722
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: I came on. First of all, it came on so

723
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: remarkably gently. That was one of the first things that

724
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: struck me about it, And then parts of it became

725
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: like a sort of mushroom me psychedelic trip was some

726
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 1: intense focus on some things, But there was this moment

727
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 1: in my experience when the whole thing I lasted forty

728
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: five minutes. I guess a little bit more. Where I

729
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: found myself in this situation, which I guess is not

730
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: totally uncommon. It was almost like that movie Avatar, the

731
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: imagery of the Avatar, and and in it, I'm in

732
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: this kind of almost underwater, this almost like swab and

733
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: I'm there and I'm thinking I'm underwater. I can't breathe,

734
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: And then I thought, but I'm breathing and then I'm

735
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, swimming for and it's darkness, murky,

736
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: and I can't see anything, and I'm going, God, this

737
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: is like this should be scary. I mean, there could

738
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: be underwater snakes and things, and I have no idea

739
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: that black would said, but I wasn't scared. And then

740
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: I had this feeling. I said, Oh, my god, so

741
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: this is how I could pass through life into death.

742
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: And it was this first time I've ever had that

743
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: sensation or that thought, or that feeling of moving from

744
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: life into death, and if doing so in a way

745
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: was rather being filled with some sense of fear or

746
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: or horror, just seemed almost gentle and accepting in a way,

747
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: and it was liberating in regard. And so I've since

748
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: read some stuff about ketamine and people's you know, how

749
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: they relate to death. But I wonder in your therapeutic practice,

750
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, how have you have you encounter things like

751
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: this in people in terms of that element of freedom

752
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 1: or in terms of how they think and approach death. Absolutely,

753
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: and thank you for sharing your account. It's such a

754
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: beautiful description of ketamine that you provide. It isn't very

755
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: gentle medicine, and I think it's really good for those

756
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 1: of us. And I think both you and I fall

757
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 1: into this category ethan of being. You know very much

758
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: in our heads a lot of the time, and so

759
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: to actually have a chance to actually drop out of

760
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: your thinking mind and find a lot of the knowledge

761
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: and wisdom and beauty in other sensual realms and other

762
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: kind of ways of knowing and navigating is quite profound

763
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: and a big expansion. And I love your insight about

764
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: transition into death. And there's a lot of work being

765
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: done actually in this area about end of life issues,

766
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: particularly with ketamine. So I'm excited that you bring that up.

767
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: And there's actually even an FDA study that Ketamine Training

768
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: Center had just got a proved for for conscious dying,

769
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: which is very exciting that a bunch of sort of

770
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: sites across the US are going to be really offering

771
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: a protocol with ketamine assisted psychotherapy for end of life.

772
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: And you know, I've had an incredible experience with a

773
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: few patients working with ketamine for end of life issues.

774
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: I'm very interested in weaving it together with meditation. Deepark Chopra,

775
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: who's a partner and a colleague of mine, He and

776
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: I have been working on a protocol looking at ketamine

777
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: assisted psychotherapy for end of life issues with meditation. And

778
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: I'll offer another vignette because this is a person who

779
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: wanted me to share this with the field working with

780
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: her when she was approaching actual death. This was a

781
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: lifelong meditator who had really wanted to die consciously and

782
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: didn't understand why she was encountering so much anxiety since

783
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: she had a really full life and had twenty year

784
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: history of breast cancer, so she had a lot of

785
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: time to prepared for it and felt satisfied by her life,

786
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: but felt really anxious when she was coming down to

787
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: have to decide when to go into hospice, and so

788
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: she reached out to Deep park on me and we

789
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: did a session together. It was one of the most

790
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: beautiful experiences of a guided meditation talking about the nature

791
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,799
Speaker 1: of reality and then actually going into academine experience and she,

792
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: like you kind of felt like she was going into

793
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: a tunnel, and then talked about feeling as if she

794
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: suddenly left her body, which was for her extraordinary because

795
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: she was in so much pain at the time. To

796
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: just not have a body and to be in the

797
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: music was she said, just so freeing of anxiety. But

798
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: what she did teach me, which I thought was really interesting,

799
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: was she actually felt the piece that of her aside

800
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: from having that experience which felt so relieving and the

801
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: transition to death that made her feel hopeful and open

802
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: to to death, was she felt actually the presence of

803
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: having to facilitators supporting her and accompanying her through death

804
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,760
Speaker 1: was perhaps the most single variable that she felt was helpful.

805
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: Even though she was surrounded by people, she felt so

806
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: alone in having to actually take this path towards death

807
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: because she didn't want to upset all her family members

808
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: of sharing what it was like for her, what she

809
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: was encountering, what her fears were. So to have a

810
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: place to really hold hands with people who cared about

811
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: her and were able to almost act as duelers in

812
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: this transition was just as important. You know, I was

813
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: watching recently to talk. You gave a video at the

814
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: Icon School of Medicine in New York, and you're going

815
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: through it talking I think, to people who were in psychiatry.

816
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: But then there was a kind of summing up of

817
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: many of the small points, and the one word you

818
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: wrote next to it all was the word freedom. But

819
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: I think it's really an important concept because I think

820
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: this medicine really makes me aware of freedom, liberation, or

821
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, you can think about it in different ways. Really,

822
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: I think we all imagine we have free choice, but

823
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: how much of our worlds are dominated by our conditioning

824
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: or our habits or calma, however you want to think

825
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: about it. You know, we kind of shape our worlds

826
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: through these particular lenses we're wearing. As a psychiatrist, and

827
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: I think anyone who's been in psychotherapy is very aware

828
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: of how there are certain patterns that one finds throughout

829
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: the course of one life. There's a relationship passion of

830
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: how we tend to the problems we tend to get

831
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 1: into over and over again. The hope is in psychotherapy,

832
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: if you're aware of them, you're going to stop making

833
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: those patterns. And sometimes that happens. Most often, you know,

834
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: we have more insight and awareness. I really feel psychedelic

835
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: psychotherapy allows one to really have a chance to almost

836
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: find the door out of our prison, which are our patterns,

837
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: our characters are conditioning, and to have new possibilities and

838
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: an emergence into the full aspects of who we are,

839
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 1: not based on our survival based strategies from childhood and

840
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: the environments we grew in, So I really feel it

841
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: is a process of liberation and growth and new possibilities

842
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: now here you're deeply involved in training others in kenemine

843
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: assisted psychotherapy. What's that like setting up these training programs?

844
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: Do you get people who show up at these things

845
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: and you think they shouldn't be here? And if so,

846
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that? What is it you're

847
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: trying to convey? Who are these people? They mostly physicians

848
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: or others. Have many of them already been trained in

849
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: m DMA psychotherapy? What can you say about your your trainees?

850
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: It is a really interesting training because it's a retreat

851
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: style training where there's an unfolding process that happens for

852
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: the whole group, and it's very experiential. Everyone experiences a

853
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: low dose and administers a low dose as well as

854
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: the high dose and administers a high dose. So you

855
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: get a lot of knowledge from the sharings, and by

856
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 1: the end of the five days, you've had so much

857
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: access to different experiences and what people have encountered, as

858
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 1: well as listening and experiencing yourself and the unfolding safety

859
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: and trust in the emergence within the group, so it's

860
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: a really rich experience, not to mention tons of didactics

861
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: thrown in there, so it's quite quite an intense experience.

862
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 1: And to your point of who applies, there's so much

863
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: demand for training and knowledge in these new medicines, particularly ketamine.

864
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: It's really open to practitioners, so a lot of them

865
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 1: are psychiatrists. Sometimes we have and es, thesiologists who even

866
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 1: have clinics and want to understand more about the process

867
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: or experience it themselves, e R doctors, nurse practitioners, psychotherapists.

868
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: We really are multidisciplinary but now open to healthcare workers

869
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 1: and medical professionals generally speaking. How much do you all

870
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: need to be worried about the risk? I mean, we

871
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: know that among people using ketamine in an illicit or

872
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: unregulated context that there are issues of dependence and addiction

873
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: and some harms. We know it's not as dangerous as

874
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: opioid addiction, for example, and there aren't the same risks

875
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: of mixing with other drugs, but it is an issue. Um,

876
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: what's your thoughts about that? I think it's it's definitely

877
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 1: an issue. I think that we have to be much

878
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: wiser about how are we prescribing all of these different

879
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 1: medicines and ketamine, And I think that's what makes me

880
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: a bit concerned as well about the more biological roots,

881
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: because I think that does push someone more in that

882
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: direction rather than opening up a process which which I

883
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: think is still an accelerated psychotherapy process. But I do

884
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: think we have to be concerned and more knowledgeable and

885
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: responsible about how we're prescribing and what the risks are

886
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: and to identify how to best support individuals who do

887
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: have a wild risk for substance abuse or dependency, because

888
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: this can be an incredibly good treatment in that population too.

889
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: It just has to be handled more thoughtfully and carefully.

890
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder I mean thinking about the areas

891
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: of methane and booper. I mean methodone is is crazily

892
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: over regulated area in the United States. It has really impeded,

893
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: you know, the effort to make it access as accessible

894
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: as possible. And you know, while we're phrasing an opioid epidemic,

895
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: boupern orphane has required physicians, I think, to get some

896
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: level of training, although maybe some of that is shifting

897
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: in Kenemine right now, there's no requirement right that you

898
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: have any training, Do you think there should be some

899
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: requirement mandated by medical boards or other regulatory agencies. Now

900
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: that's a really good question. I think training would be

901
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 1: very helpful. Depends on what you've been trained for. I mean,

902
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: that's the thing is that you don't need any training.

903
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 1: People come to our training because they want to learn,

904
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: not because they're mandated to really learn. And then there's

905
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: so many trainings popping up that you know, it's hard

906
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 1: for consumers to understand which is the right training to

907
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: go to, because having a beautiful website doesn't really tell

908
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: you very much. So I think training would be really important. Certainly,

909
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: I can speak for myself. I can't imagine just becoming

910
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: academy and provider for psychotherapy without having a lot of

911
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: experience and seeking that out. I tend to be on

912
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: the more very responsible side, so that's my character anyway.

913
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: But I do think some training is really important because

914
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: I think you can really in terms of first do

915
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: no harm, get into trouble if you don't know what

916
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: you're doing or what the doses are, what the concerns are.

917
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: There is such a focus on scaling and access and

918
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: so much commercial gain that's centering into the field, which

919
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: might have its benefits to the problem I see in

920
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: this real mad rush of access and commercial gain. Are

921
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: we going to have a predictable backlash to that so

922
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: instead of actually winding up ahead that everything is going

923
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: to if things get very sloppy and there's casualties popping

924
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: up an addiction and dependency. Are we going to have

925
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: a short lived moment of this growth when everything then

926
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: has to come back and swim to the other direction

927
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: of being regulated and medicalized and shut down and limited,

928
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: which maybe is an important balancing act, But I think

929
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: it would be nice to have a little bit more

930
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: thought in deciding instead of, you know, having the decisions

931
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: made because people are rushing too quickly and carelessly. Well,

932
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: geta listen. I love what you're doing. I love the

933
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: way you think about this, I love the way you

934
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: describe it in the terms of dancing choreography, and I

935
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 1: love your vision for it. So thank you ever so

936
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: much for being my guest Let's Psychoact. It's been a

937
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: pleasure to be here. Thank you. I'm joy talking to Ethan.

938
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like

939
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments and ideas. Then leave

940
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: us a message at one eight three three seven seven

941
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you

942
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: can email us at psychoactive at protozoa dot com or

943
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can

944
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: also find contact information in our show notes. Next week,

945
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: I'll talk with Hamilton's Morris, the brilliant young journalist, scientific

946
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: researcher and creator of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia. I even would go

947
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,439
Speaker 1: so far as to say I became a journalist as

948
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: a reason to talk to Alexander Shalgan. You know, that

949
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: was that was probably one of the holy motivators, was

950
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, why would he talk to me? Well, maybe

951
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 1: he talked to me if I were writing an article

952
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: about him, or you know, maybe then that would be

953
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: some incentive. And that was kind of one of the

954
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: main things that interested me about journalism at the beginning,

955
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: was that it was a license to be curious about

956
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: things that otherwise you would have no legitimate reason to

957
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: ask questions about why would somebody talk to and annoying

958
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 1: college student about their work. They have better things to do,

959
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: they're busy. But if he's working for a magazine, and

960
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: he's writing an article or making a short documentary. Well

961
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: maybe they'll We'll give him a couple of hours. Subscribe

962
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it. Psychoactive is

963
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's

964
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by no him

965
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,

966
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures,

967
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio and

968
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and

969
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: a special thanks to Avivi Brioseph Bianca Grimshaw and Robert B.

970
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: B