Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in.
Speaker 1: A brid egg Frida, egg Frida, egg Frida egg bride
Speaker 1: egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is with Rob Collins. Rob is one of
Speaker 1: the principles of King Collin's design. He, along with Tad King,
Speaker 1: are a up and coming golf architecture firm. So Rob
Speaker 1: was the fourth episode of the Friday Egg Podcast ever.
Speaker 1: So it's been a while since Rob was on, but
Speaker 1: one of our earliest guests coming back on. I was
Speaker 1: really excited to chat with Rob. It had been too long.
Speaker 1: Should have had him on many times before. Since that podcast,
Speaker 1: they've built courses Sweeten's Cove, but they've also opened innis
Speaker 1: Landman and they are in the process of putting the
Speaker 1: finish finishing touches on Red Feather down in Lubbock, Texas,
Speaker 1: and have some exciting new projects in the hopper. So
Speaker 1: we discussed a wide range of topics in this podcast,
Speaker 1: and without further ado, here is Rob Collins. Robert spent
Speaker 1: a long time, very long time og Frida Egg pod
Speaker 1: guests in the first I think in the first five episodes.
Speaker 1: I think it might be episode four.
Speaker 2: I really hope we have better audio today. I think
Speaker 2: we have better audio.
Speaker 1: I can almost assure you that we will. We are not.
Speaker 1: You know, the audio on my end is not coming
Speaker 1: through my MacBook speakers and being recorded on my phone.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I'm not I'm not on a I'm
Speaker 2: not driving to Knoxville in the rain and like on
Speaker 2: a bad speaker phone or something.
Speaker 1: Those old episodes, like I if if you were going
Speaker 1: to torture me, it would be having me listen to
Speaker 1: my early episodes, that would be. That'd be about as
Speaker 1: much as you could torture me. I think I think
Speaker 1: it'd be worse than like bodily harm.
Speaker 2: That was fun it's it's it's funny how many people
Speaker 2: still talk to me, you know, they say, you know,
Speaker 2: they they they heard that episode. That was that made
Speaker 2: a big difference for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's uh, what's the new? You're one of the
Speaker 1: busiest guys in golf now and uh and and where
Speaker 1: where you been? Uh? What's what's been? Kind of like
Speaker 1: the last last year, I imagine, you know, you set your
Speaker 1: intentions with it being at the new year. When you
Speaker 1: look back on twenty twenty two, what were the things
Speaker 1: that stood out for you?
Speaker 2: Well, we you know, we're really really deep into Red
Speaker 2: Feather at that point and made a ton of progress
Speaker 2: out there, so that was a big, big deal for us.
Speaker 2: And then you know, the culmination of getting Landman open,
Speaker 2: I mean that was that was huge. I mean it
Speaker 2: was funny it opened. Will set the opening date for
Speaker 2: September four, twenty twenty two, which was the three year
Speaker 2: anniversary of when we were out there, and I mean
Speaker 2: that's hard to believe that it was twenty nineteen, but
Speaker 2: you know, he really took the extra time to make
Speaker 2: sure that it was dialed in and everything and hit
Speaker 2: that anniversary and that was that was really special. That's
Speaker 2: something I'll never forget.
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that'll stick with me
Speaker 1: with Landman and the construction project project and process of
Speaker 1: being out there a decent amount is like you know,
Speaker 1: just going out there and seeing those scrapers moving for
Speaker 1: like entire days on one fair way and just the
Speaker 1: you know the amount of earth work that had had
Speaker 1: to happen to make you know, certain areas of that
Speaker 1: property golfable, and you know it three years is a
Speaker 1: long time, but in terms of that project, it feels
Speaker 1: like it was actually kind of short.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that was it was definitely a
Speaker 2: herculean effort. We were so lucky to have some unbelievably
Speaker 2: talented guys out there helping us. And you know, in
Speaker 2: a way, it's funny. I mean it's kind of like
Speaker 2: Sweetens in a way, like the more the harder you try,
Speaker 2: the more you know, attached you get to it. And
Speaker 2: you know that it was just a difficult project because
Speaker 2: of how much work had to be done, and then
Speaker 2: you know, Will made a really good decision to to
Speaker 2: sold it, you know, but even then, I mean it
Speaker 2: still took still took time to get it dialed in,
Speaker 2: and so when it was finally ready, I mean you
Speaker 2: just built up to this moment in time and that
Speaker 2: was I just that was what a couple of days.
Speaker 2: That was awesome.
Speaker 1: Hey, you know, I wanted to kind of take back
Speaker 1: obviously the first time, you know, when we did this
Speaker 1: a long time ago. Yeah, Sween's Cove was in like
Speaker 1: a completely different place, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, in a death spiral basically, I.
Speaker 1: Think about it. It's you know, we we both at
Speaker 1: that point we had had businesses that we didn't really
Speaker 1: know what the future held for them. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's probably you probably could go back and
Speaker 1: count on you know, you could list off dozens of
Speaker 1: moments like pinch me moments in different formative important moments
Speaker 1: of Sweden's Cove. But like if there's one like time
Speaker 1: where you thought, I can't believe this is happening in
Speaker 1: its history, your time there, what would it be?
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, definitely, definitely the biggest moment
Speaker 2: was when when the group finally came together, the ownership group.
Speaker 2: We had searched long and hard for a really long
Speaker 2: time to find a great group to partner with, and
Speaker 2: I was coming off the back of actually turning down
Speaker 2: a very very successful golf developer who's done really good projects.
Speaker 2: Have a lot of respect for him, but we just
Speaker 2: couldn't come to agreement on the numbers. And you know,
Speaker 2: going through the negotiations with Mark was was a breeze
Speaker 2: and it was we just could tell, you know, it
Speaker 2: was it was going to happen, and it was going
Speaker 2: to work. And then you know, when the story of
Speaker 2: when I was out to dinner with with Mark and
Speaker 2: Tom Nolan and I didn't know Peyton was going to
Speaker 2: be one of the partners, and when Peyton walked into
Speaker 2: the restaurant and they all surprised me with that, that
Speaker 2: was just like, holy shit. I mean, I can't believe
Speaker 2: this is happening. I just couldn't believe it. That was
Speaker 2: I mean, that's still just you know, get tears in
Speaker 2: my eyes thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Really, it's an unbelievable surprise. Like you know, it was.
Speaker 2: An unbelievable surprise. It was just a big it was
Speaker 2: I mean, it was the biggest surprise. I mean, uh,
Speaker 2: Will Bardwell wrote a great piece about that. And every
Speaker 2: time I read the restaurant scene, you know, from time
Speaker 2: to time, once a year or something, I'll go back
Speaker 2: and read that article and it always it gets a
Speaker 2: little dusty every time I get to that scene. That
Speaker 2: was a that was a big deal. And it's it's
Speaker 2: awesome having those guys on board. I mean, it's been
Speaker 2: so fun to watch it. And now you know, with
Speaker 2: Matta Danski running things, I mean he's taken it to
Speaker 2: a whole new level. I mean he's just an amazing
Speaker 2: GM and so creative and so passionate about it, and
Speaker 2: that place needs somebody who's going to live and breathe
Speaker 2: that experience because it's so different, and he just does
Speaker 2: an incredible job, and it just it just keeps getting better.
Speaker 2: And every year we think of, you know, ways we
Speaker 2: can make the experience better, and and just we always
Speaker 2: try to make it better for people. And I think
Speaker 2: that's really helped it continue to be fun and attractive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the at that at Sweetens that there
Speaker 1: has to be a definitive culture ceter right.
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know a great way to say it.
Speaker 1: It was Patrick before Matt and it's just you know,
Speaker 1: in a way, and obviously that the model, the business
Speaker 1: model of the golf course has changed tremendously. You know,
Speaker 1: the way people think of sweet and Scove has changed
Speaker 1: completely from five years ago, yeah to now. And it's
Speaker 1: you guys now in a way like you were kind
Speaker 1: of like the little engine that could, but now I
Speaker 1: imagine in a way that you're kind of with the
Speaker 1: all day passes, the high demand, you know, like you
Speaker 1: have become this bucket list you're almost you have to
Speaker 1: deliver an experience from when somebody gets out of the
Speaker 1: car with with the golf court. How has that changed
Speaker 1: and how you guys think about, you know, delivering a
Speaker 1: experience for like a top notch experience for people, because obviously,
Speaker 1: like the I think the expectations of when somebody goes
Speaker 1: there is dramatically different than you know, five six years ago.
Speaker 2: There's no question. I mean I think people had had
Speaker 2: zero expectations. I mean one of my best friends, he's
Speaker 2: become a great friend through Sweden's guy named John Allen.
Speaker 2: You know, he went out there and he was a
Speaker 2: huge supporter of ours very early. Remember and his first
Speaker 2: time out there. I'll always get tickled here in his
Speaker 2: story because he he went and played nine holes and
Speaker 2: he walked up to the shed and just walked straight
Speaker 2: up to Patrick. John's very straightforward. He said, what the
Speaker 2: hell is this place doing here? I mean it just
Speaker 2: it didn't make sense, you know, like how is this
Speaker 2: golf course here? And then also why am I like
Speaker 2: the only player here? And so but then people who
Speaker 2: just people who didn't know about it. I mean they
Speaker 2: had very low expectations, as you said before, and now
Speaker 2: there's a very high expectation. And that's something we talk
Speaker 2: about all the time. And that's where Matt and Colt
Speaker 2: and those guys just I think they do an absolutely
Speaker 2: amazing job of having this immersive experience and treating everyone,
Speaker 2: you know, really well and like they're like they're a
Speaker 2: house guest almost, you know, and a cherished house guest
Speaker 2: coming in and you just want to show him a
Speaker 2: great time. And so that's something we talk about a lot.
Speaker 2: And you know, we fell into the all day pass
Speaker 2: thing by accident, and that was the result of you know,
Speaker 2: the golf course being too crowded, and we we we
Speaker 2: figured out that let's do this all day pass thing
Speaker 2: and see how that works. And then it became that
Speaker 2: became really popular, and you know, each year we we
Speaker 2: strive to get better on the experience side of it.
Speaker 2: And this year one of the things we're going to
Speaker 2: be doing to make it better is we're going to
Speaker 2: work with a food provider, you know, like a food truck,
Speaker 2: so you'll actually be able to get food there rather
Speaker 2: than you know, ordering out to dominos.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's huge, and it's going to be a tough
Speaker 1: break for the subways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a tough break for the subway. The good and
Speaker 2: the bad subway, so you know things like that. You know,
Speaker 2: we want to you know, improve the you know, furniture
Speaker 2: and kind of hang out space up top, and we
Speaker 2: just want people to be really comfortable and have a
Speaker 2: great time and not want for anything. So, you know,
Speaker 2: as we've gotten into it and seen it grow, I
Speaker 2: think we're you know, in a place where we can
Speaker 2: do certain things you know, we couldn't do a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago.
Speaker 1: So how how does being on the side of you know,
Speaker 1: you're part of an ownership, part of people, that part
Speaker 1: of a group that makes decisions about the daily operation
Speaker 1: of a golf course. Does that help you with talking
Speaker 1: with perspective owners about new projects?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean Sweetens has given me in Tad too,
Speaker 2: you know, Tad's experience prior to us going out on
Speaker 2: our own. I mean he had a lot of experience
Speaker 2: in setting up operations too, and so that combined and
Speaker 2: Tad's been intimately involved in the launch of Sweetens and
Speaker 2: he always knows what's going on. So both of us
Speaker 2: collectively having been through all that, it's given us a
Speaker 2: wealth of knowledge and experience that we can give suggestions.
Speaker 2: And one thing that I've noticed just with how the
Speaker 2: way golf is going and the way consumers are kind
Speaker 2: of looking for golf is more what I would call
Speaker 2: like an immersive type of experience. People are less interested
Speaker 2: and less inclined to just you know, going and getting
Speaker 2: a ten twenty tea time and there's a ten to
Speaker 2: twenty eight behind it, and that's like punching a clock
Speaker 2: at work. You know. These very rigid systems that we've
Speaker 2: had that you and I grew up with playing golf
Speaker 2: are going away, and people are looking for kind of
Speaker 2: a more immersive, authentic experience, and so we try to
Speaker 2: think about creative ways to deliver that in various formats.
Speaker 2: I mean, some of our clients have private clubs and
Speaker 2: some are republic but you try to you think a
Speaker 2: lot about the experience and how that's the whole thing,
Speaker 2: and how the golf course architecture can tie into that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you create you know, I think one of
Speaker 1: the things that the all day pass and I've never
Speaker 1: actually like, I've been there all day a number of times,
Speaker 1: you know, for different things. I've never participated the all
Speaker 1: day past thing. But the way I kind of think
Speaker 1: about it in my head is that what you've done
Speaker 1: is the traditional public golf experience is kind of like
Speaker 1: a movie. Right, you have your showtime, you show up,
Speaker 1: you know you're there a little bit ahead of time.
Speaker 1: You get your popcorn, you get your your drink, you
Speaker 1: watch your movie, and then you leave. And what you've
Speaker 1: almost done with the all day past there is you've
Speaker 1: created more of like a feel of like a music festival,
Speaker 1: where you know, you show up up, you're watching one show.
Speaker 1: You might bounce over to a different stage for a while.
Speaker 1: You might decide, hey, let's just hang out here for
Speaker 1: a little bit and stop playing golf. But then I'm
Speaker 1: going to jump back out, you know, in twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: And it's much more of a free flowing I'm here
Speaker 1: all day. And I think one of the things it
Speaker 1: does is it actually like it makes the golf more
Speaker 1: casual in a way, and because you're not in this
Speaker 1: like hurry like there, it removes that schedule from the
Speaker 1: day and it creates like almost more of a relaxing,
Speaker 1: laid back, approachable atmosphere.
Speaker 2: That's absolutely true. I mean, it's it takes the pressure
Speaker 2: off in people who come there who maybe haven't done
Speaker 2: it before. You know, there's a little bit of anxiety
Speaker 2: on the first he of like I've got to get out,
Speaker 2: you know, And Matt's really good at kind of talking
Speaker 2: off the ledge a little bit and saying, Okay, look,
Speaker 2: you're going to be here till nine o'clock tonight in summertime,
Speaker 2: like it's going to be okay. And you know, the fun,
Speaker 2: really fun thing is is about the all day passes.
Speaker 2: It like gives a lot of power to the consumer.
Speaker 2: We're not dictating how they're going to enjoy the golf course.
Speaker 2: They decide that on their own. And and you know,
Speaker 2: we don't have many rules, you know. Basically all we
Speaker 2: ask is that you be respectful of the golf course
Speaker 2: and the people around you and and and keep up,
Speaker 2: you know, in other words, play play fast, don't don't
Speaker 2: don't bog the place down. And so if you can
Speaker 2: do that playing with five or six people, great, you know.
Speaker 2: And and then the other thing too, is is that
Speaker 2: it creates a cool atmosphere where you know, somebody from
Speaker 2: Chicago may you know, be going around and they end
Speaker 2: up pairing up with some guys from Florida, and and
Speaker 2: you know, they become friends and have a have a
Speaker 2: unique experience in that way. And then towards the end
Speaker 2: of the day. Is the attrition inevitably, you know, opens
Speaker 2: up more space on the golf course. People can kind
Speaker 2: of go, you know, maybe you play number one backwards
Speaker 2: to number nine, or do some of the cross country
Speaker 2: stuff too. So there's there's a lot of flexibility and
Speaker 2: in it's kind of a choose your own adventure in
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, where people just they're the ones
Speaker 2: in control and they they they can do what they please.
Speaker 1: I got to ask your your life's changed significantly, and
Speaker 1: you know, you you've effectively gone from you know, a
Speaker 1: designer of a nine hole golf course who was really
Speaker 1: waiting around for their next break, you and Tad to
Speaker 1: now you're a very I would say, you're a very
Speaker 1: busy golf architect. You have I think like that. I
Speaker 1: know of three plus jobs that are that are in
Speaker 1: some sort of process, probably a lot more coming down
Speaker 1: the pipe. And how how's that transition been and would
Speaker 1: have been? You know, the you know, the big things
Speaker 1: that you've had to change.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's been a very welcome transition for starters.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's it's always been. It's you know
Speaker 2: what we work so hard for and.
Speaker 1: There's like no middle ground. It seems like.
Speaker 2: There's no middle ground. And but it's funny. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, we all have bad days and and you
Speaker 2: have great days, or maybe you get a little down
Speaker 2: about something and I often say to like Rob, what
Speaker 2: the hell? You know what, you don't have anything to
Speaker 2: complain about. I mean, you're doing what you want, doing
Speaker 2: great projects with great clients, you know. So sometimes I
Speaker 2: have to have a little bit of a reality check
Speaker 2: because you know, things can get stressful or busy. But
Speaker 2: you know, uh, the growth of King Collins is in
Speaker 2: how we handle that is something that Tad and I
Speaker 2: talk a lot about. We spend a lot of time
Speaker 2: talking about that and how we you know, add people
Speaker 2: on and you know, we've been fortunate to bring bring
Speaker 2: some young guys on who are a huge help on site.
Speaker 2: I mean as a design build firm, you know, we
Speaker 2: don't like working on more than two projects at a time,
Speaker 2: and you know that that creates a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: scheduling complexities for me and Tad. I mean sometimes I'll
Speaker 2: need to be here and he'll need to be there,
Speaker 2: and then there's you know, back of office helps stuff
Speaker 2: that we have people to help us with that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know, you just hired one of our old interns, Matt,
Speaker 2: who's doing a great job for you. And you know,
Speaker 2: we have somebody working for us named Sharon who does
Speaker 2: a lot of things that you know, we used to
Speaker 2: have to do that we don't really have time for now.
Speaker 2: So but like figuring all that out is we're figuring
Speaker 2: out on the fly, you know, and that's it's not
Speaker 2: always easy, and there's fits and star with it. But
Speaker 2: I think we're I think we're figuring it out.
Speaker 1: What has been you know, if you can give us
Speaker 1: share some light, what's been the toughest challenge about this,
Speaker 1: about the growth? I mean I can relate.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I mean, well it's funny. I mean, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I remember vividly when when Patrick told me
Speaker 2: about you coming out there to Sweetens in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: You know, this guy's driving down from Knoxville to come
Speaker 2: see it, and lives changed in both of our lives
Speaker 2: in that time. And I like to every time I
Speaker 2: see you, I make a comment about you being the
Speaker 2: busiest busiest man in show business. I mean, you really,
Speaker 2: it's insane how busy you are. But I think that,
Speaker 2: like the hardest thing has just been striking kind of
Speaker 2: a work life balance at times. You know, when things
Speaker 2: are really busy on a couple of projects, it can
Speaker 2: it can you know, it can get stressful, and you know,
Speaker 2: you just got to that. That's where us hiring more
Speaker 2: people has been a huge help and good people. You know,
Speaker 2: it's funny. There's a guy working for us right now,
Speaker 2: Bruce Shober, young guy who's just crushing it as one
Speaker 2: of our project managers, and it's he was working out
Speaker 2: at Landman at one point in time at Landman for
Speaker 2: weeks on end. His job was to pull sticks out
Speaker 2: of the sand that we were getting from the river
Speaker 2: just so it wouldn't go in the greens. I mean,
Speaker 2: talk about you know, not very fun. But he didn't complain.
Speaker 2: He great attitude and now he's running projects and you know,
Speaker 2: being able to have people like Bruce step up and
Speaker 2: help is huge. And we've got a nice stable of
Speaker 2: guys we really like to work with on shapers of
Speaker 2: things and that's been great too. So we just we
Speaker 2: just need to keep building and keep trunning ourselves with
Speaker 2: good people planning week behind.
Speaker 1: Now for a quick word from our sponsor today's episode
Speaker 1: is brought to you by Club TFE. We are cooking
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Speaker 1: and thank you to everybody that has joined in for
Speaker 1: the support. And now back to Rob Collins. What are
Speaker 1: some things that you hated letting go that now you
Speaker 1: look back on and laugh, like, thank God, it's out
Speaker 1: of my life.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, a lot of this stuff is like
Speaker 2: just awful, like paper pushing stuff, Like I didn't hate
Speaker 2: to let that go. But on the other side, I'm like,
Speaker 2: thank God that I'm not doing that stuff anymore. Like
Speaker 2: I am so bad. Tad and I laugh. I mean
Speaker 2: we are the two worst administrative people on Earth. I mean,
Speaker 2: if I worked in an office, I would be fired
Speaker 2: within four hours. You know, I can't. I can't stand
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. And you know, having people to
Speaker 2: help with that has been has been huge. But I
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't shed a tear when I got to
Speaker 2: say goodbye to some of that either.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean that's like the stuff I think
Speaker 1: about that all the time is like it's it's seems
Speaker 1: sometimes like stuff seems like it's so hard, like I
Speaker 1: could never get rid of this, and then you finally
Speaker 1: get rid of it, and you're like, why did it
Speaker 1: take me three years to get rid of this stuff?
Speaker 1: It's it's just you know, is there anything in the
Speaker 1: creative process I imagine? I mean you talk about work
Speaker 1: life balance. I go through a lot of the same stuff.
Speaker 1: You know, both of our jobs require us to be
Speaker 1: away from home a decent amount, which obviously then you know,
Speaker 1: puts a strain on that relationship. It do you find yourself?
Speaker 1: Have you, as you guys scale and I think this
Speaker 1: is obviously a tricky thing in the design build world,
Speaker 1: Like everything in your business pushes you to want to
Speaker 1: scale up, but the ethos of your business is craftsmanship,
Speaker 1: which is like the complete opposite of scaling up. That's right,
Speaker 1: So you know, have there have you started to let
Speaker 1: go a little bit of some of the creative processes
Speaker 1: in certain aspects, And you know you talk about bringing
Speaker 1: more people on, obviously you want them to grow as well.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you know, Tad and I don't spend as
Speaker 2: much time on machines as we used to, just simply
Speaker 2: because of time commitments. But having really talented people who
Speaker 2: can come in and help with that and do those
Speaker 2: things has been tremendously helpful. But you know, Tad and
Speaker 2: I have talked about that, and when we have accepted
Speaker 2: the fact that we do in fact have a ceiling, too,
Speaker 2: are the scale. I mean, it can't grow outside this room,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's only going to get so big
Speaker 2: simply because we don't want to do five projects at once.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's as Tad and I say, we would
Speaker 2: rather end our career doing twenty twenty five projects, thirty
Speaker 2: whatever that number is, I don't know, and be really
Speaker 2: really proud of every one of them, than to do,
Speaker 2: let's call it fifty projects and go. I wish we
Speaker 2: had another shot at that one, you know. You know,
Speaker 2: people's time and resources are so valuable, you know, from
Speaker 2: the client end and also from the amount of effort
Speaker 2: and time that people put into it that it's just
Speaker 2: it's worth giving it everything you got. And I firmly
Speaker 2: believe that we're going to be better off in every respect,
Speaker 2: and Tad does too by following that more simplified approach.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what God is here. We don't need
Speaker 2: to get crazy. We don't need to We don't need
Speaker 2: to change the model too much. We just need help.
Speaker 1: That's well, I think that's a pinch across the industry,
Speaker 1: right with so much construction going on, there's you know,
Speaker 1: the whole industry contracted, and you know, and now there's
Speaker 1: this you know, surplus of work and you know there
Speaker 1: aren't you know staff.
Speaker 2: That's a huge, huge issue, absolutely huge issue. I mean
Speaker 2: it's funny. We had, as you very well know, we
Speaker 2: had fortunate to have Jeff Bradley help us out on
Speaker 2: the bunkers at Landman and that was because you know,
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, you know, it was middle of COVID
Speaker 2: and Bill and Ben as we all did had you know,
Speaker 2: some things that kind of got paused and Jeff needed
Speaker 2: a place to go and thank god we could use it.
Speaker 2: And you know, it is hard to find those people,
Speaker 2: and Tad and I try to work really hard to
Speaker 2: cultivate a really fun team atmosphere to to you know,
Speaker 2: have guys who want to work with us and want
Speaker 2: to be want to be loyal to us and not
Speaker 2: bounce around. You know, we give a lot of a
Speaker 2: lot of leeway to guys, give them a lot of
Speaker 2: freedom and we're both easy going and and fun to
Speaker 2: work for. And I think that you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of times on golf construction projects, you know, maybe the architect,
Speaker 2: particularly if it's a contractor situation, it's it's they're constricting
Speaker 2: people down, and we like to give freedom. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's how you get that's how you get the best
Speaker 2: product is by having people inject their own uh being
Speaker 2: and creative process into it. And then you, you know,
Speaker 2: you react to that. I mean a lot of times
Speaker 2: you have very specific ideas of what you want, but
Speaker 2: you but you still, you know, you give them, give
Speaker 2: them a lot of rope and let them run and
Speaker 2: see what they do. And and then and then you know,
Speaker 2: it's just dirt. You can always change it if you
Speaker 2: need to. But that that, I think that's how all
Speaker 2: the best courses, you know, since sand Hills have gotten
Speaker 2: built by doing stuff like that. So that's kind of
Speaker 2: what we try to do.
Speaker 1: And do you have a specific example of that, maybe
Speaker 1: a feature at Landman where you let somebody go and
Speaker 1: it turned out better than what you had maybe planned
Speaker 1: or different, may not better, but you wouldn't know, but
Speaker 1: different than what you had planned, and you ended up
Speaker 1: really liking the final product.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, a great example right off the top
Speaker 2: that comes to mind is the creek baranka feature on
Speaker 2: number three, which people have loved. And that was actually
Speaker 2: Jimmy Craig's idea. We we you know, the bunker placement
Speaker 2: on that hole was, and we knew where the bunkers
Speaker 2: wanted to go, and how the hole wanted to go,
Speaker 2: and how the green was going to sit sit down
Speaker 2: on the ground and all that, and Jimmy suggested that,
Speaker 2: and it was it was a great idea, and we
Speaker 2: ran with it. And it was funny because as we
Speaker 2: started going with it, we said, well, let's at this
Speaker 2: point in time, we had Trevor and and another guy
Speaker 2: named Lucas helping us, and and and and John Ellsworth too,
Speaker 2: and and we're like, well, let's all let's connect these things.
Speaker 2: Create one on four that's coming down and and and
Speaker 2: then Lucas actually suggested, why don't we, you know, connect
Speaker 2: him up rather than having the one that's on four
Speaker 2: because Forrest, as you remember, Forrest higher than three and
Speaker 2: all the water comes down through that channel. And he said, well,
Speaker 2: let's connect him up. And that and that was you
Speaker 2: know as well, Yeah, Lucas that that's it, that's that's
Speaker 2: exactly what we should do. And so, you know, we
Speaker 2: want people to be thinking. We want people to be
Speaker 2: light on their feet and throwing out ideas, and you know,
Speaker 2: we'll take ideas from anywhere. You know, it's ultimately our
Speaker 2: decision to filter out the good ones and the ones
Speaker 2: that might not work and and go with it. But
Speaker 2: that's a I think that's a good example, I.
Speaker 1: Would say, and I hope this is not unfair to say,
Speaker 1: and if it is, please correct me. I kind of
Speaker 1: describe you guys as architecture as maximalist. I think you're
Speaker 1: not afraid to push stuff around and create. And obviously
Speaker 1: you're making a name and I think that's part of
Speaker 1: you know, why you're making a name. You're doing things
Speaker 1: differently than a lot of other people are doing them,
Speaker 1: and you're in this era of minimalist architecture. You know,
Speaker 1: do you get pushedback, you know, in from clients and
Speaker 1: different things when you say, hey, we wanna this is
Speaker 1: what we want to do, And obviously I think it.
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're bringing typically different ideas in a
Speaker 1: different perspective to to projects than maybe the other people
Speaker 1: they're talking to.
Speaker 2: I think we I totally agree with you in that
Speaker 2: I think we do bring a different flair and creative
Speaker 2: process than a lot of other firms. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think there's things that we do that are different and unique.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've always said, you know, if somebody asked
Speaker 2: me my opinion of how do you get into golf
Speaker 2: architecture people who are interested in it, what do you recommend?
Speaker 2: Et cetera, et cetera. And one of my key things
Speaker 2: I always say to people is, you know, find your
Speaker 2: own voice. You know, find find your own vision. Because
Speaker 2: I've got news for you. You are not Bill Krer,
Speaker 2: and you're gonna waste your life trying to chase that ghost.
Speaker 2: Because if you're simply I love Bill and I love
Speaker 2: everything they do. I mean that is the highest praise.
Speaker 2: You know, you can't to find your own own vision,
Speaker 2: your your your own voice. Otherwise if you try to
Speaker 2: be someone else, you can't be. You can't out build
Speaker 2: core Bill Core. In other words, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So we have tried to find our own vision, in
Speaker 2: our own voice. I think that's something that you're speaking
Speaker 2: to and I think that's one of our great strengths. However,
Speaker 2: I would push back a little bit on the maximalist thing,
Speaker 2: which may be semantic.
Speaker 1: It's hard one, there's only two, there's only two top two,
Speaker 1: there's no middle ground.
Speaker 2: Well, but I think the term the term maximalist to me,
Speaker 2: and it could completely could be a semantic difference in
Speaker 2: how we perceive maximal The word maximalism, The word maximalist
Speaker 2: to me implies a little bit of gratuitousness to it.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's if you have that in
Speaker 2: your mind, but to me, that word has an implication
Speaker 2: of gratuitousness or maybe artificiality. So I would say that
Speaker 2: we are not maximalists in that sense. Like, for instance, Landman.
Speaker 2: Landman was a completely ungolfable terrain in its natural state.
Speaker 2: Looking at it from you know, an overall view, just
Speaker 2: standing on the first tee before a teaspoon of dirt
Speaker 2: was pushed, it looked amazing. But then when you start
Speaker 2: walking on it and you're walking up a four to
Speaker 2: one slope to the number one green and your heart's
Speaker 2: pounding out of your chest, you know you can't play
Speaker 2: golf on that. So we had to do things that
Speaker 2: made it golfable in you know, I would say that,
Speaker 2: you know, the overall goal with Landman was to not
Speaker 2: move gratuitous amounts of dirt for the just for the
Speaker 2: sake of doing it, But it was to move the
Speaker 2: right amount to make it both playable, strategic, and have
Speaker 2: all the shot making characteristics that we wanted. You know,
Speaker 2: we wanted to move not too much, not too low.
Speaker 2: We wanted to move the right amount. And also, you know,
Speaker 2: our first project, Sweden's Cove, was a seventy two acre
Speaker 2: dead flat floodplain that did not drain, so we had
Speaker 2: to move a lot of dirt there. Landman, We've had,
Speaker 2: you know, just by the nature of the site.
Speaker 1: You know, And I agree, like the one of the
Speaker 1: things about you know, being a younger architect and not
Speaker 1: having huge body of work is like, we haven't seen
Speaker 1: you have a site in great natural sand dunes.
Speaker 2: Now, That's that's what I'm That's what I'm getting around to,
Speaker 2: is that you know, we don't necessarily look at a
Speaker 2: site and say, oh, I would like to knock this
Speaker 2: hill down and just because we can. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: not at all our mindset. You know, we always talk
Speaker 2: about every single project. It's our job to figure out
Speaker 2: what the question is that this project is asking. Once
Speaker 2: you identify that, then you figure out how to answer
Speaker 2: that question and what the how you push forward from
Speaker 2: there And at Landman, in order to build an extraordinary
Speaker 2: golf course, it required moving a lot of dirt. I
Speaker 2: compare Landman two really to the original Lido in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, because the original Lido moved roughly two
Speaker 2: million cubic yards by creating golf on a beautiful but
Speaker 2: otherwise ungolfable terrain. Right that site was not golfable prior
Speaker 2: to them doing that. Yeah, okay, and Landman like the
Speaker 2: Lido is a just flat out, unabashed tribute to a
Speaker 2: certain type of golf. It's it's audacious. It's just an
Speaker 2: unapologetically tribute to a certain type of golf. And it
Speaker 2: was manufactured on a great site. But prior to construction
Speaker 2: was was ungoffable. So that was the question, and that
Speaker 2: that's that was the approach we took through Landman. Now
Speaker 2: we have a project in Nashville that is it's this
Speaker 2: unbelievable rolling terrain and it's much more of a I mean, okay,
Speaker 2: a minimalist job. I mean there's stuff where you know,
Speaker 2: there's green settings next to little creaks like the project
Speaker 2: we were talking about earlier, we're just you hardly move anything.
Speaker 2: So and then you know, we have another project which
Speaker 2: I hope can get announced this year. It's truly on
Speaker 2: one of the best sites in the world, on a
Speaker 2: seaside site with sand dunes and all that. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's just a teaspoonful here and there, you know, so
Speaker 2: you have to you have to roll with the punches.
Speaker 2: I mean, every every site is going to have a
Speaker 2: different set of demands to deliver the best possible product
Speaker 2: to the client into the consumer. And I think that
Speaker 2: you know, Tad and I do have a certain fearlessness
Speaker 2: to us in a flare for the dramatic, and a
Speaker 2: willingness to do some things maybe that other people wouldn't
Speaker 2: want to do. And I think that that that helps
Speaker 2: us in a lot of ways when we when we
Speaker 2: we see opportunity where maybe others would see a roadblock.
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of our strengths.
Speaker 1: I've something that I've always thought about, not always, but
Speaker 1: you know, recent years have dominated my brain and I
Speaker 1: always think about this and from your perspective as as builders,
Speaker 1: as guys that create stuff is it harder and does
Speaker 1: it require more confidence maybe to build a wild green
Speaker 1: or something that's very understated and know that it's got
Speaker 1: enough going on.
Speaker 2: I think you could argue that both take equal amount
Speaker 2: of confidence. There's some really wild grains at Landman, there's
Speaker 2: a few, but I think that like the oxygen gets
Speaker 2: taken out of the room by number seven, number four,
Speaker 2: number fifteen, and number seventeen because they're so audacious. That's like,
Speaker 2: you know, you forget about you know number number eight,
Speaker 2: you know, nine, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, then fourteen
Speaker 2: you come to this ver Dan with this gigantic kicker
Speaker 2: which kind of takes your breath away. So you know
Speaker 2: that you have to be confident in your application of
Speaker 2: when when to get a little wild, but also you
Speaker 2: got to know when to pull it back too. And
Speaker 2: one thing that I absolutely am very cognizant of and
Speaker 2: so is Tad is you know, I don't want to
Speaker 2: be nor do do Tad. And I want to be
Speaker 2: put in a box of like, oh those are the
Speaker 2: guys who just they do all the crazy stuff they
Speaker 2: do the wild greens. I mean yeah, I mean sometimes
Speaker 2: but sometimes not. And you know, I want each of
Speaker 2: our projects to be kind of like a faberge egg
Speaker 2: for the lack of a better term, where it's just
Speaker 2: it's its own little special thing, and it's each one's different,
Speaker 2: you know, each one is something that we're immensely proud of.
Speaker 2: But land Man is not like Red Feather is not
Speaker 2: like others. I mean, there's there's greens at Red Feather.
Speaker 2: There's some there's some bold ones, but there's some really
Speaker 2: really just chill kind of lay of the land stuff.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't wait for people to see Red Feather.
Speaker 2: I think it has an awesome mix of greens and
Speaker 2: bunkering and interest. I've never really seen anything like it,
Speaker 2: and that's an Red Feather is an example of where,
Speaker 2: you know, to get it back to some of the
Speaker 2: earlier comments like that's where you know, I think Tad
Speaker 2: and I saw an opportunity where maybe others would would
Speaker 2: have gotten a little scared away. In fact, I was
Speaker 2: talking to Tad today, I mean, we almost didn't get
Speaker 2: that project permitted because even the engineers just they couldn't
Speaker 2: wrap their head around how we were going to make
Speaker 2: this thing work. And I remember Tad talking to the
Speaker 2: guy and finally the engineer was like, oh, yeah, that
Speaker 2: will work. And you know, we have to move one
Speaker 2: point three million have to like we will get in
Speaker 2: the project will get you know, wouldn't work if we
Speaker 2: don't move one point three million cubic yards of dirt
Speaker 2: beneath a certain contour to hold a certain volume of
Speaker 2: water during a five hundred year storm. We have to
Speaker 2: do that, by the law. We have to do that.
Speaker 2: And it's taken a lot of creativity and a lot
Speaker 2: of vision and Tad's expertise and just incredible ability to
Speaker 2: understand big earth works. You know, in the end product
Speaker 2: there is going to be extraordinary and it's it's it's
Speaker 2: it's different than land Mane. It's gonna be different than
Speaker 2: the one in Nashville, but it's gonna be its own
Speaker 2: special thing.
Speaker 1: Well, I think this is like something with golf architecture. Right,
Speaker 1: we're in this in this period of this dominated by minimalism.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: This is obviously with like Bill Bill Corr and Tom Doak,
Speaker 1: and you know they've ushered in. They those guys obviously
Speaker 1: they moved dirt on projects. It's like, you know, not
Speaker 1: every project's just like I found this green here and
Speaker 1: I mowed it out right, they moved earth. But the era,
Speaker 1: this really the last twenty years, has been dominated by
Speaker 1: a singular trend. And I think what what's happened is
Speaker 1: it's kind of created. Like almost everything in the world
Speaker 1: seems to now is like this is good and this
Speaker 1: is bad. I'm on this side. I'm on this side.
Speaker 1: And the reality is if if golf architecture is there
Speaker 1: in art form, there is a lot of room for
Speaker 1: different projects. And from what I understand about the Red
Speaker 1: Feather site was like, you know, it's an area that's
Speaker 1: extremely prone to flooding, and it was a very flat
Speaker 1: piece of property. So if you put golf there, it
Speaker 1: just you have to have the necessary features and it takes,
Speaker 1: you know, the skill set to go wander around a
Speaker 1: sand dune site and find eighteen holes is a lot
Speaker 1: different than taking a flat, flood ridden area and creating
Speaker 1: eighteen holes, and both deserve some like a real study
Speaker 1: of how it's done, and the skill sets are different,
Speaker 1: Like it's not a matter of narrowing down you know
Speaker 1: what eighteen holes are best, like obviously at sandhills, like
Speaker 1: what of the one hundred and six the one hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty two holes, are the best eighteen right, it
Speaker 1: is how do we make a functional golf course from nothing?
Speaker 1: And like, I think that is it's an interesting thing
Speaker 1: because it's really it's almost you could make an argument
Speaker 1: a more creative process because you're having to imagine something
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist in its current state.
Speaker 2: I could not agree more. I mean, I think that,
Speaker 2: I mean, I just I'll go back to our guys,
Speaker 2: but I mean, I'm so immensely proud at Landman and
Speaker 2: Red Feather of what they did, you know, to just
Speaker 2: pull these features out of the earth through a lot
Speaker 2: of hard work, Like Joe Hancock was out at Redfeather
Speaker 2: and Mark Berger and John Ellsworth and these guys. I mean,
Speaker 2: we have to create these channels in places for the
Speaker 2: water to go below a thirty two to twenty nine contour.
Speaker 2: And when we first started that project, we didn't really
Speaker 2: have a real solid idea of exactly what the look
Speaker 2: and feel was going to be. We just knew kind
Speaker 2: of had to get this start out and what you know,
Speaker 2: we didn't know exactly what it was going to be,
Speaker 2: but we had the confidence that we as the dirt
Speaker 2: came out, we could make it work. And we were
Speaker 2: driving out east of town in Lubbock, there's these just
Speaker 2: amazing landforms with these dry creek beds coming through them,
Speaker 2: and these flat top landforms look like maces. I call
Speaker 2: them maces. It's like some of the scenes in No
Speaker 2: Country for Old Men of that just very start, kind
Speaker 2: of very rugged landscape. And we latched onto that look
Speaker 2: and so let's run with that, and the guys created
Speaker 2: these just amazing features. I mean, it looks like the
Speaker 2: golf course looks like it was just kind of carved
Speaker 2: out of this rugged West Texas landscape. And the goal
Speaker 2: was to like move boatloads of dirt to satisfy the
Speaker 2: permitting requirements, but then sit the golf course down on
Speaker 2: top of that in a minute, old fashioned almost like
Speaker 2: we didn't. Does that make sense. I mean, it's like
Speaker 2: you move the dirt and then you just set the
Speaker 2: golf course into it, almost as in a minimalist sense.
Speaker 2: So the golf course is very ground hugging, very low profile,
Speaker 2: very down on the ground, lots of greens where it
Speaker 2: just runs right into the fairway. And you know, that's
Speaker 2: been a really a fun thing. And in at land Man,
Speaker 2: I mean Tad and I and our team I think
Speaker 2: should be very proud of seeing golf holes where you know,
Speaker 2: there were slopes and things going on that prior to
Speaker 2: construction weren't there, and how they were able to tie
Speaker 2: back into the natural land and make it look like
Speaker 2: it was there the whole time it is. That's a
Speaker 2: lot of skill and a lot of creativity by a
Speaker 2: lot of very talented people who made that happen. And
Speaker 2: I couldn't be happier with the way those things turned out.
Speaker 1: What are concepts golf and design that you haven't been
Speaker 1: able to do that you'd like to do?
Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting question. I'll tell you about one.
Speaker 2: We submitted a plan to Pinehurst in October of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one, and I mean, honestly, I can't believe I'm
Speaker 2: even saying this. I mean, there's literally only a handful
Speaker 2: of people that know this, but what the hell I mean?
Speaker 2: I work To have a chance to work at Pinehurst
Speaker 2: would be ultimate dream come true for me. You know,
Speaker 2: my whole a lot of the ways I think about
Speaker 2: golf architecture came out of Pinehurst Number two and seeing
Speaker 2: that with my dad in two thousand and seven and
Speaker 2: my brother on his seventy fifth birthday trip, and obviously
Speaker 2: that was prior to the renovation, but even then, you know,
Speaker 2: just the greens and the putting, you know, the short
Speaker 2: grass and the contour. It just was really impacted the
Speaker 2: way I thought about things. And to have a chance
Speaker 2: to throw some ideas out there at the pit has
Speaker 2: been been a thrill and I hope that I hope
Speaker 2: that we can do it. We came up with a
Speaker 2: concept that I've never seen anywhere, that would be entirely
Speaker 2: unique to the world of golf, that we feel would
Speaker 2: be a perfect fit for a place like Pinehurst because
Speaker 2: they have these, you know, some really great kind of
Speaker 2: traditional courses. I mean, you know, I'm sure Tom's course
Speaker 2: will will be a great addition, and that Bill and
Speaker 2: Ben do theirs, I hope they do. That'll be another
Speaker 2: great eighteen hole golf course. But our concept was to
Speaker 2: take one hundred and forty acres and build five golf
Speaker 2: courses on one hundred and forty acres where you could
Speaker 2: play a new course each day. And I worked with
Speaker 2: Joe McDonald to do all these amazing renderings and flyovers
Speaker 2: and all this stuff. So one day you're playing this
Speaker 2: way on the purple routing and you know there's greens everywhere.
Speaker 2: Sometimes the greens only play for the red routing, and
Speaker 2: sometimes you only play for the purple routing and only
Speaker 2: play for the green routing. And but sometimes you know
Speaker 2: there's double greens that you you know, you might use
Speaker 2: one side of the surface or another at any rate.
Speaker 2: I mean it was you know, I would like for
Speaker 2: us to have an opportunity to basically have an ode
Speaker 2: to Pinehurst number two that is like five Pinehurst number
Speaker 2: two's on a different day with just different stuff going
Speaker 2: on all over the place.
Speaker 1: So there'd be ninety holes on one hundred and forty acres.
Speaker 2: There'd be not great at math. Yeah, that sounds right.
Speaker 1: The only reason I know that is because of the
Speaker 1: Bob Hope used to be five rounds and I could,
Speaker 1: I could do that quick. But then there'd be you know,
Speaker 1: there'd be some there'd be way more than eighteen greens,
Speaker 1: you know, and different series of routings. But there wouldn't
Speaker 1: be ninety greens obviously.
Speaker 2: No, no, exactly no, So one day, so one just
Speaker 2: like go ahead.
Speaker 1: One thing that I obviously you'd have increased maintenance costs
Speaker 1: from the additional greens. But one thing that pops into
Speaker 1: my mind is the idea of how you could do
Speaker 1: maintenance work on areas that weren't being used on the
Speaker 1: day's routing and preparation for the next day. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's like a lot of utility in that sense.
Speaker 1: Like that's just one area facet of this that jumps
Speaker 1: to mind. It's a very interesting idea, and you know,
Speaker 1: like the other question I'd have is like, is this
Speaker 1: is this a better idea for a resort where somebody's
Speaker 1: coming to play one time? Obviously they could play the
Speaker 1: same course five days in a row and be different
Speaker 1: every time. Or is this a path? Is this a path?
Speaker 1: Like this type of idea a really intriguing idea for
Speaker 1: private clubs or municipal golf courses.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it could definitely work really well in
Speaker 2: a private club aspect as well. But you know, our
Speaker 2: thought was that it was the absolute perfect thing for
Speaker 2: Pinehurst because they have, you know, a lot of golf courses.
Speaker 2: They've got nine now they're going to have ten golf
Speaker 2: courses where it's a very similar experience and each time,
Speaker 2: and you know, there was a sort of a utilitarian
Speaker 2: aspect to it, and that it only takes up one
Speaker 2: hundred and forty acres, So it's not it's not spread
Speaker 2: over two three hundred acres. It's it's more compact. It's
Speaker 2: you know, the courses are ranged from six thousand to
Speaker 2: sixty five hundred yards. And going back to our original
Speaker 2: conversation of how Sweetens has affected how we think about
Speaker 2: things in the immersive nature of golf. You know, this
Speaker 2: is a very immersive thing in that Let's say you're
Speaker 2: playing this blue course one day and you're looking over
Speaker 2: and you're going, God, I would I would die to get,
Speaker 2: you know, to play that one, and it just it
Speaker 2: just sets this hook. We're all cracked. We're all we're
Speaker 2: all crack addicts basically, you know, you know, you once
Speaker 2: you get see some think cool, you want to experience
Speaker 2: it again. You want to see the next thing. You
Speaker 2: just couldn't get enough of it. It's like, well, I've
Speaker 2: got to stay an extra day or And my thought
Speaker 2: was that people would be like it would extend the
Speaker 2: length of their visits because Okay, this year, i can
Speaker 2: play the red and the purple in the yellow, and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna stay an extra two and a half days
Speaker 2: to do that. And then next year I'll come back,
Speaker 2: and and it's like it creates a repeat visit thing
Speaker 2: because Okay, let's say you go to Pinehurst for four
Speaker 2: or five days. I mean, you're definitely gonna play number two,
Speaker 2: You're gonna play number four, you're gonna play number ten,
Speaker 2: play the core Crenchhall. You know. Then it's like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: I've got to come back next year. My buddy played
Speaker 2: the Purple one on Wednesday and he said it was unbelievable,
Speaker 2: So I gotta play that one. So it creates a
Speaker 2: desire to return. And I think it would be great
Speaker 2: for him, not only just from a golf standpoint, have
Speaker 2: something different than what they have, something that at the
Speaker 2: same wild still while being different, is still rooted in
Speaker 2: the fundamentals of what Pinehurst is. I mean, it needs
Speaker 2: to be a very Pinehursty looking golf course. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm not we're not reinventing. We're not reinventing the wheel
Speaker 2: on that. But but also from an operational standpoint, it's
Speaker 2: like you're I mean, I don't why wouldn't you, I
Speaker 2: mean you would, And can you imagine how much merch
Speaker 2: they would sell? My god, I mean, you know, five
Speaker 2: different courses.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's like, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I find frustrated with golf architecture is,
Speaker 1: you know, architect building architecture, you know, painting, sculpting, all
Speaker 1: these different art forms, right, and building architecture and golf
Speaker 1: architecture are kind of to one and the same. One
Speaker 1: of the things that's frustrating if you if you consider
Speaker 1: this in our form, is that, like you know, in
Speaker 1: order for work to get done, it has to be
Speaker 1: commissioned by someone. Like you know, if if I'm a famous,
Speaker 1: if I'm a painter, I can just paint whatever comes
Speaker 1: to mind, right, and then it's out in the world
Speaker 1: and people purchase it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: The thing with golf architecture is like there has to
Speaker 1: be somebody on the other side that said yes, and like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is this is an example of an
Speaker 1: out of the box idea. This is something that hasn't
Speaker 1: been done before. But in order for it to be done,
Speaker 1: someone has to come right the twenty whatever million dollar check,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever the cost of this of a project.
Speaker 1: You know, obviously all that change is based off of
Speaker 1: where the land is, where you know, what the soils
Speaker 1: are all that, but let's just say twenty million dollars.
Speaker 1: Someone has to write the check for the twenty million.
Speaker 1: It doesn't just get to get done like a lot
Speaker 1: of other art forms. Like I have this cool idea,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it, and that's I think, how
Speaker 1: a lot of famous art happens. It's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: want to do this. I'm going to write this song,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm going to do it in my
Speaker 1: basement and this is and then it becomes famous. Like
Speaker 1: with golf architecture, there has to be the other side
Speaker 1: that accepts it. And you know, this is like it's
Speaker 1: a very I mean, it's an intriguing idea. I think
Speaker 1: like it adds variety, like day to day variety. You
Speaker 1: get different golf courses, right. But then furthermore, it would
Speaker 1: actually make running the golf course the operational side of
Speaker 1: thing things. Once you understood how to set each course
Speaker 1: up right, it would make it easier because you'd always
Speaker 1: be ahead, as opposed to like we need to Hey,
Speaker 1: we have a shotgun tomorrow, we have to get all
Speaker 1: the greens mode in the dark, Like, oh, we can
Speaker 1: do this the night before.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I mean it operationally, it does
Speaker 2: make a ton of sense. And I just I think
Speaker 2: a lot about what would I like to see if
Speaker 2: I go somewhere. And I love going to Pinehurst, and
Speaker 2: like I said, it's one of my favorite places in
Speaker 2: the world. But you know, there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: there that's I think they need something that's a little
Speaker 2: bit more outside the box. I mean, they've had so
Speaker 2: much success with the Cradle and and everything, you know,
Speaker 2: all the things they've done in the last ten years,
Speaker 2: and this just takes a step further in my mind,
Speaker 2: and to get to do something like that would be amazing.
Speaker 2: And again it's on one hundred and forty acres, so
Speaker 2: it's not like we're occupying massive amounts of terrain. These
Speaker 2: are courses that would be able to be played you know,
Speaker 2: pretty quickly, uh you know, thirty or six thousand to
Speaker 2: sixty five hundred yards, which is fun too. I mean
Speaker 2: that's kind of a different thing, you know.
Speaker 1: So where I'd push where i'd push back on Like
Speaker 1: you know, like when this guy announced a lot, I
Speaker 1: think like obviously Will Bardwell was I think championing you guys.
Speaker 1: I wonder if he knew the plan. But I think
Speaker 1: like one of the things that I thought a lot
Speaker 1: about with like golf resorts is you know, Pinehurst is
Speaker 1: in the position of like say, like a Microsoft if
Speaker 1: you think about it in terms of like the golf landscape,
Speaker 1: right you know, in a way, they're in the position
Speaker 1: because of a risk taken in nineteen one hundred by
Speaker 1: Toughs to build destination winter golf in rural North Carolina.
Speaker 1: I mean that was their big risk, right you know,
Speaker 1: like everybody has to take a risk at some point, Right,
Speaker 1: Mike Kaiser hired David McClay kidd in a way at
Speaker 1: that point, making that taking that risk building a golf
Speaker 1: course in remote Oregon on the coastline now means that
Speaker 1: he doesn't really have to take risks because he's you know,
Speaker 1: proven himself. Pinehurst, it goes all the way back to
Speaker 1: nineteen hundred. They have all this history, right in a way,
Speaker 1: they take a risk so long ago, and obviously like
Speaker 1: this on this is also why innovation always tends to
Speaker 1: happen outside of the establishment, right you know, in a way,
Speaker 1: like your all day pass at Sweeten's Cove is an
Speaker 1: innovative form of golf, and it happened outside the like
Speaker 1: outside of like a traditional golf landscape because I think
Speaker 1: almost in a way those resorts think of like, we
Speaker 1: can't screw this up. They're in these like if if something,
Speaker 1: if they try something innovative and it screws up, everybody
Speaker 1: knows that is a cossal failure versus like I build
Speaker 1: this golf course in in wherever and it doesn't work fully,
Speaker 1: nobody knows, right. I just like that's like I would
Speaker 1: think the tip of the opposite side of of like
Speaker 1: doing it at a resort. But you know, like I'm
Speaker 1: super intrigued and from like a a golf architecture moving
Speaker 1: forward stamp point. I think it's like extremely important for
Speaker 1: somebody to be pushing new ideas. And I think there
Speaker 1: are architects that do push new ideas, you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: like a lot of architects push new ideas. But you know,
Speaker 1: the frustrating thing is it's on the developer side of
Speaker 1: the foot to say, Okay, we don't need eighteen holes
Speaker 1: of championship golf. We can do this different thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you have to have the medici, you know,
Speaker 2: to to fund the fund the artist. I mean I've
Speaker 2: thought about that a lot. I mean, in one of
Speaker 2: my biggest frustrations, you know, prior to us quote unquote
Speaker 2: making it. I think we've made it now, But in
Speaker 2: the days where we were having a hard time, it was,
Speaker 2: you know, immensely frustrating that I couldn't go out, like
Speaker 2: you said, and go down into the basement and write
Speaker 2: the song. I couldn't. I have all these ideas, you know,
Speaker 2: Tad and I have these ideas, we have these concepts,
Speaker 2: these things we want to do, and to have to
Speaker 2: rely on someone else is tough, you know, my my,
Speaker 2: You know, the resorts are corporate and down the middle,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times I get that, but hey,
Speaker 2: at the same time, I'd say, the proofs in the pudding.
Speaker 2: I mean, we deliver and you know Landman basically sold
Speaker 2: out like that, Sweeten's Cove sells out in five to
Speaker 2: ten minutes. Red Feather is going to be very successful.
Speaker 2: You know. We take pride in our in our courses working.
Speaker 2: And the other thing too, is is I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm remembering my quote from your podcast that we did
Speaker 2: when you know, the third podcast. You know, when I
Speaker 2: find it's like, if we finally get this opportunity, I mean,
Speaker 2: we are going to be like crazy, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: if we got that we are not fucking it up. Period. Okay,
Speaker 2: we are going to deliver. And you know they've got
Speaker 2: nine hundred and something makers. I hope Tom calls me.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's plenty of room to do it in.
Speaker 1: Terms of like when you look at when you look back,
Speaker 1: when you think about past projects, you know, like I
Speaker 1: do this all the time. I think about like what
Speaker 1: can I do better? What can I do this? Like
Speaker 1: I think every you know, every off season, you think
Speaker 1: about your favorite sporting athletes. It's like, well, man, if
Speaker 1: this guy could develop a jumper, he'd be lights out.
Speaker 1: Do you do you do that? As architects? Do you
Speaker 1: guys ever talk about like think like, you know, what
Speaker 1: if we could get a little bit better at this,
Speaker 1: or we could do this a little different. And has
Speaker 1: there been an instance of like you've you've made a
Speaker 1: slight tweak to the way you do things that have
Speaker 1: led to improvement, or there are things that you know, hey,
Speaker 1: we should get a little bit better at this. I'm
Speaker 1: just curious nobody ever talks about this stuff. And I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I mean I think that, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Tad and I are both inquisitive people, and we talk
Speaker 2: all the time, but just me and him. I mean
Speaker 2: I talked to him an hour or two every day.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that comes up in conversation is,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll say something like, I really learned a
Speaker 2: lot on that project. You know, we learned something there.
Speaker 2: Every single project teaches you new lessons. I mean, we've
Speaker 2: learned new lessons at Red Feather, and you learn everyone
Speaker 2: teaches you new things, and and you know, I think
Speaker 2: we're always trying to We don't ever want to be
Speaker 2: copying anybody else, So we're constantly kind of probing at
Speaker 2: the edges of you know, doing new things, new expressions
Speaker 2: of what we're what we're doing. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: we never want it to be We never wanted to
Speaker 2: not work or feel contrived. I mean, so there's a
Speaker 2: there's a balance with that, and I mean there's a
Speaker 2: few things were you know, maybe yeah, you know, maybe
Speaker 2: we should have done this a little bit different, and
Speaker 2: you learn from it. But yeah, I mean that that's
Speaker 2: that's part of the artistic process. I mean, it just
Speaker 2: is work because we're kind, you know, as much as
Speaker 2: a critic, you know, might look at something that we
Speaker 2: do and say, oh, you should have done this or that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can promise you we have gone through
Speaker 2: all those conversations a million times over, and you know,
Speaker 2: we're always trying to do it, you know, like I said,
Speaker 2: a new look, a new a new style. I don't
Speaker 2: This is kind of a contradictory comment.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 2: I want people to be able to walk onto a
Speaker 2: King Collins golf course in fifty or one hundred years
Speaker 2: and say, there's something about it. This is a King Collins. Okay.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I really don't want them
Speaker 2: to just be able to look at it and go, oh,
Speaker 2: that's a King Collins. Does that make sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be I don't ever want us
Speaker 2: to be repetitive. I want each of our clients to
Speaker 2: get a new, little special present from us. Each one
Speaker 2: is a new little gift, and we have to find
Speaker 2: a new way each time to create that little flare,
Speaker 2: this little thing. We've got this little project going on
Speaker 2: right now, and Mark Berger built this cool little role
Speaker 2: that's unlike any role we've had in any of our
Speaker 2: other Greens, And I was like, God, that is so badass,
Speaker 2: in like, that's part of the little gift to the client,
Speaker 2: Like that's something we haven't seen before on one of
Speaker 2: our courses, and so each every one you're and it
Speaker 2: might be something small like that, it might be something bigger.
Speaker 2: But every time you're trying to find something, find a
Speaker 2: new way, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Last question before we get you out of here, where
Speaker 1: would you like to see golf architecture go? I think
Speaker 1: we're obviously at a point there's a lot of work,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of projects going on, and a little
Speaker 1: bit of an inflection point. As you know, there is
Speaker 1: a new crop of yourself, included architects getting a chance.
Speaker 1: You know, what general direction would you like to see
Speaker 1: architecture go? Or one direction?
Speaker 2: You know? I think you know one thing Tad and
Speaker 2: I talked about in twenty ten. It's hard to believe
Speaker 2: when we started King Collins was it. You know, if
Speaker 2: we can just get one in the ground, we can
Speaker 2: we can build on that up. And the point we
Speaker 2: were making that was in the middle of a very
Speaker 2: bad recession downturning golf, was that, you know, golf is
Speaker 2: gonna is gonna be down, but we felt like if
Speaker 2: we can come out of it with something in the ground,
Speaker 2: with a new wrinkle, you know, we'll we'll get opportunities.
Speaker 2: And we knew also at the same time that there
Speaker 2: was a glut of a lot of very uninteresting, uninspiring
Speaker 2: golf out there, and that this whole movement and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, you've ridden this wave. I mean, no laying up.
Speaker 2: I mean we've ridden it. That this new interest in
Speaker 2: golf is reactionary towards again, sorry, this earlier era of
Speaker 2: very boring, kind of punch the ticket kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: And so you know, we could kind of feel that,
Speaker 2: and there is to me still and I talked to
Speaker 2: some golf developers about this, there is not a not
Speaker 2: yet satisfied desire for new and compelling and interesting golf.
Speaker 2: The population will still go and seek that out. And
Speaker 2: you know a lot of times maybe that is refurbishing
Speaker 2: something that was old, or finding opportunities in underserved golf populations.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of great golf cities out
Speaker 2: there that essentially are underserved. I mean, look at Atlanta.
Speaker 2: I mean, for instance, Okay, there's tons of golfers there,
Speaker 2: there's compelling.
Speaker 1: Ground around there.
Speaker 2: There's lots of golf courses, but none of them are
Speaker 2: real good, at least the ones you can get on.
Speaker 2: And it's like if somebody built an amazing public facility there,
Speaker 2: it would print money. I mean, there's still going to
Speaker 2: be opportunities like that. So I think that it's to
Speaker 2: get to your question, I mean, I think it's kind
Speaker 2: of just resetting the old ways and and and just
Speaker 2: finding finding the right opportunities. And there's there's plenty of
Speaker 2: opportunities in these in places too, to go where where
Speaker 2: you have this inverse relationship of low quality golf to
Speaker 2: high demand, and that's not satisfied yet. So I remain
Speaker 2: bullish about prospects for the future. And and and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of young people are gonna get to do
Speaker 2: meet things and that that's great.
Speaker 1: All right, Rob, that's uh, it's a pleasure having you on.
Speaker 1: We're gonna have you on in a shorter time duration
Speaker 1: than than last you know, the five years or four
Speaker 1: years in between episodes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it was great to talk to you again.
Speaker 2: Can't wait to can't wait to see you again. Sam.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait to see you. It's spent too long,
Speaker 1: it has and we'll keep in touch. But people can
Speaker 1: find you. You're on Twitter and Instagram, and then you
Speaker 1: have your website, King Collins It's at Kingcollins goolf Design dot.
Speaker 2: Com, Kingcollinsgolf dot com, and then King Collins Golf on
Speaker 2: Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker 1: So thanks Rob and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 2: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you Andy, Thank you for listening to another edition
Speaker 1: of the Friday Podcast. As a quick reminder, we have
Speaker 1: event registration. As I mentioned before in this episode, event
Speaker 1: registration went live for Club TFE members this week, but
Speaker 1: for the general public if you are not a Club
Speaker 1: TFU member, they will It will be up on Monday.
Speaker 1: So the events that are open as as it stands
Speaker 1: now are the Boomerang at Seoul Park, the Ill Hants
Speaker 1: redesigned Soul Park in Ohi, California. Wonderful place to spend
Speaker 1: a day playing golf, really laid back event. The Steam
Speaker 1: Shovel at Lawsonia that is on that is in mid
Speaker 1: May on a Saturday in mid May. Fantastic William Lankford
Speaker 1: Theodore Moreau Golf Course, one of my favorite golf courses
Speaker 1: in the Midwest. And then we also have Hollywood The
Speaker 1: Blockbuster at Hollywood Golf Club, widely considered Walter Travis's best
Speaker 1: golf course. That's in New Jersey, and that's in June
Speaker 1: as well as the Dog Bowl at Yale, so at
Speaker 1: the SETH Rayner, C B. McDonald, you know a place
Speaker 1: that you kind of have to see to believe how
Speaker 1: big and bold the architecture is at Yale. The dog
Speaker 1: Bowl will be the Saturday after the Blockbuster, which is
Speaker 1: in kind of the mid to end of June, so
Speaker 1: that will be all those will be available to everybody
Speaker 1: on Monday, January twenty third. So thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Friday Egg. We'll be back next week. We've got
Speaker 1: some new Podza in the hopper and look forward to
Speaker 1: talking to you guys again soon