1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: your Mind. This is Robert Lamp and this is Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our series on tears. 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: We figured out by today this is definitely going to 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: be at least three parts because there's just so much 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: that you know that the tears make an ocean and 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: and uh, and they don't stop coming, so so there 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: will be at least one more. Yeah, there's really there's 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: almost too much. Because sometimes we look into things and 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: we're like, okay, what is the what's the mythological ramifications 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: of this? Are there any treatments of this and mythology 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: or religion? And with something like tears, the answer is 14 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: is yes, every religion, every mythology pretty much, you know. Um, 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: so it's easy to get lost sort of just trade, 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: you know, chasing some of these ideas down and then 17 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what which ones are worth talking 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about which ones are not. And then of course from 19 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: the scientific point of view there uh, we've already rolled 20 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: through I think some of the science of tears, and 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: we have a bit more to cover today. Well, We've 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: got a lot more to cover on the science of tears. 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: In the last episode, we talked some about some of 24 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: the basic, uncontroversial biological facts about tears, you know, like 25 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: basal tears and reflex tears, what they're made of and 26 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: and how how they're secreted from the lacrimal glands, and 27 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: what they normally do. But the big question, the big 28 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: sort of mystery about tears, is this question of human 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: emotional tears. Humans appear to be the only animal that 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: sheds tears as a response to emotional states, and so 31 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: one of the huge questions is why, what is the 32 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: biological purpose and thus what is the evolutionary justification unique 33 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: to our species of liquid coming out of your eyes 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: in response to feeling emotions. As we talked about in 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: the last episode. You know, because this is not a 36 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: settled question, there are just there tons of hypotheses that 37 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: have been put forward over the years. We talked in 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: the last episode about several very unlikely ones, for example, 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: tears being a byproduct of an alleged aquatic ape past 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: for human beings. This is almost certainly not correct because 41 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: we don't put much stock in the aquatic ap hypothesis 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: Another one is this idea that maybe tears are somehow 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: derived from a conditioned response of our ancient ancestors to 44 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: getting smoke in their eyes at funeral pyres after they 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: started controlling fire. There are several reasons we talked about 46 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: in the last episode by that that's probably not correct either. 47 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: So over the next couple of episodes, we're going to 48 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: be exploring a bunch more of the existing hypotheses about 49 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: the evolutionary purpose of emotional tears. And I think you 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: can sort these into three broad categories. The first being 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: there there is no purpose, maybe they're just some kind 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: of byproduct, the second being the purpose is intra personal, 53 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: meaning internal to the body of the person who's crying. 54 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: And then the third would be that the purpose is interpersonal, 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: meaning that tears serve some kind of external or relational function. Now, 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: on the score of no purpose explanations, here's the kind 57 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: of surprising fact. Apparently, Charles Darwin actually believed that emotional 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: tears served no purpose of their own, but rather were 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: a byproduct of other purposeful adaptations, notably facial expressions and 60 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: vocal expressions. In his eighteen seventy two book The Expression 61 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: of Emotions, in Man and Animals, uh Darwin wrote, quote, 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: the shedding of tears appears to have originated through reflex 63 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: action from the spasmodic contraction of the eyelids, together perhaps 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: with the eyeballs becoming gorged with blood during the act 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: of screaming. Therefore, weeping probably came on rather late in 66 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: the line of our descent. And this conclusion agrees with 67 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: the fact that our nearest allies, the nthropomorphous apes, do 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: not weep. So the second observation there being that that 69 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: the other apes that were most closely related to they 70 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: do produce tears, of course basal tears in their eyes 71 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: and irritant tears, but they don't produce emotional tears. So 72 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: that observation is correct. But I think Darwin's influenced in 73 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: the in the first half of that paragraph there is 74 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: almost definitely wrong. His idea is that, well, when we 75 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: get upset, we cry out with our voices, and this 76 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: makes like blood rushed to the face because you're screaming, 77 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: and maybe all the blood sort of makes your eyes swell, 78 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: and then they're Also when you're upset, there are facial 79 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: muscle contractions like involuntary reflexive contractions of things like the eyelids, 80 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: and this just sort of squeezes tears out as an 81 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: accidental byproduct. I don't think I can go with Darwin 82 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: on this one. This sounds really wrong. Yeah, I mean, 83 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: I mean, on one hand, we've already talked about the 84 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: various sounds and screaming type uh effects that you see 85 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: with with other primates. I mean, if you've been to 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: a zoo or you've been to a natural environment where 87 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: primates make their home, you may have heard this. So 88 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: that they are there, they can create the kind of 89 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: screaming that I guess could theoretically cause the eyeballs to 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: become gorged with blood. So that doesn't seem to have 91 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: much weight to it. Yeah, it's not that it would 92 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: be impossible for contractions of the facial muscles to cause tears. 93 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: I do think this may even be an explanation. I've 94 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: seen this invoked as an explanation for why sometimes your 95 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: eyes get teary when you yawn. Like when you yawn, 96 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: that may put some kind of pressure on the lachrymal 97 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: glands that causes some excessive tearing, which you know it 98 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: leads to blurring of the vision. After you're done yawning, 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: and then you might need to wipe your eyes, maybe 100 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: a similar thing with coughing. So it's it's not impossible 101 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: that contractions of the facial muscles could cause some tearing. 102 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: It just seems like the tears being produced by the 103 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: lachrymal glands during an emotional episode or something that exceeds this, 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: this kind of tearing. Um and uh And I don't know, 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: most researchers who focus on this area really do think 106 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: that this is not a plausible explanation. It seems pretty 107 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: clear that tears are a true adaptive trait that serve 108 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: their own functions and function independently from just the contractions 109 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: of the facial muscles. Because another question would be like, well, okay, 110 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: if this is true for humans, how come other like 111 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: apes that were closely related to don't also cry when 112 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: they contract their facial muscles in in emotional episodes. Yeah. 113 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: Like I said, it seems like we just have we 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: have more evidence to the contrary at this point. Yeah, 115 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: so it seems like tears are probably purposeful, a true 116 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: adaptive trait of some kind. So the next category would be, well, 117 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: maybe tears have some kind of intra personal purpose. They 118 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: do something within the body, within the self, uh. And 119 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: there are many ways of approaching this, but to cite 120 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: a characteristic example of this type of explanation, I wanted 121 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: to look at the detoxification hypothesis. This is one that 122 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: used to be pretty popular but has really fallen out 123 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: of favor historically. I think this is one of the 124 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: most popular hypotheses for for explaining the function of tears. 125 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: It was advanced by the American biochemist William Fry in 126 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties, I think first published in nineteen eighty five, 127 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: I believe and Fry's reasoning went like this, Okay, when 128 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: humans are under stress, you're having some intense emotional you 129 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: know about of emotion, there is a build up of 130 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: potentially toxic substances in the blood. So you know, think 131 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: about all the different uh stress effects of stress you 132 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: learned about. You know, when when you're really distressed, your 133 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: your bloodstream floods with cortisol. You're you're freaked out. You 134 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: can almost kind of like feel it moving through your body, 135 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: or at least maybe it's an illusion, but I feel 136 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: like I can, like when I'm having a stressful experience, 137 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: there's almost a sematic sensation of the spreading of this 138 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: kind of like uh, aggravating numbness and fry positive that 139 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: when this happens, when your body fills up with all 140 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: these potentially toxic contaminants or horn stress hormones, things like that, 141 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 1: the body cleanses these excess contaminants by purging them through 142 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: the tear response, with the lachrymal glands acting like kidneys 143 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: do for the urinary system. So under this hypothesis, you 144 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: are you are peeing out your eyes when you are 145 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: really stressed. Yeah, and I can I can understand why 146 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: this idea, you know, had had some support behind it 147 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: because I mean, on one level, yes, we can look 148 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 1: to the kidneys in the urinary system and we can see, uh, 149 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: we can see something like this. But to your point, 150 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: the feeling of all this welling up inside of us 151 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: and then the what often feels like a release. And 152 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: I have to stress though that when when you get it, 153 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: look at different accounts of weeping, and depending on the 154 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: circumstances of the weeping, such as like solitary weeping versus 155 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: public weeping, and then that's going to depend on the 156 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: culture in the scenario in which is taking place. Um, 157 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: you do see a lot of accounts where people say, Okay, 158 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: I felt better after or I wept after. You know, 159 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: all this built up and then was released. Uh, so 160 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: we can under we could we can imagine where like 161 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: looking at this idea of what the urinary system is doing, 162 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: thinking about how we feel before and after an emotional outburst, 163 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: we could easily fall in line with thinking like, yeah, yeah, 164 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: those that that was the top the toxins building up 165 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: in my body, and I am letting the toxins out. 166 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Weeping is just the body releasing the poison. Yeah. Yeah, 167 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: this is having a sort of like chemical read on 168 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: the feeling of catharsis people uh sometimes experience from weeping. Uh. Now, 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: of course I should say before I move on that 170 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: this hypothesis does not have much support among any modern 171 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: tear response researchers. I was reading it seems like the 172 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: evidence for it is not good. It has been strongly 173 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: pushed back against. But like you're saying, it does have 174 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: this intuitive appeal because there is a widespread belief in 175 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: the healing power of tears. I actually I came across 176 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: the stat that I found astounding. So I was reading 177 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: an article in Time magazine by Mandy Oaklander from sixteen 178 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: that was about interviewed several different researchers who work on 179 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: the subject of tears, and it's cited one analysis that 180 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: looked at a bunch of articles about crying in the 181 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: media over a period of more than a hundred years, 182 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: so going way back, and it found that nine four 183 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: percent of them described crying as in some way good 184 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: for the mind and body, and or described holding back 185 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: tears as bad for the mind and body. And yet 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: despite this gut feeling that people seem to have, I mean, 187 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: I feel this way too. It's it's a common belief. 188 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: This this this gut feeling that tears bring catharsis and 189 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: relief and they heal you. They're good for you, they 190 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: heal the mind and body. Evidence for this is apparently 191 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,119 Speaker 1: pretty scarce on the ground. The same article by Oaklander 192 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: in Times cites a researcher named Jonathan Rottenberg, who is 193 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: a professor of psychology at the University of South Florida 194 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: who studies emotion and is on work with tears, and 195 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: Rodenberg says that these claims about the healing power of 196 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: tears are basically a fable there's just not much evidence 197 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: that crying has strong measurable benefits to health, mental or physical, 198 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: or that it predictably brings relief or catharsis. I mean, 199 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: obviously it does bring a feeling of relief sometimes. I 200 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: think we all know that from experience, but maybe not 201 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: as consistently as we tend to infer. Yeah, one example, 202 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: because some some of us might be you know, you 203 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: might wonder, well, okay, what's an example of tears not 204 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: having a beneficial effect. One example was brought up, I 205 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: think this was in Holy Tears, was that some people, 206 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: when queried on this, they mentioned that if they are 207 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: weeping out of a feeling of loneliness and they are 208 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: doing so in a solitary setting, that they may feel 209 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: worse afterwards, which which I think is interesting and I 210 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: think that can potentially shed light on some other theories 211 00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: or potentially provide um some possible evidence for supporting other 212 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: hypotheses concerning the reason that we have tears, the function 213 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: of tears and human in the human condition. Right, Well, 214 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to get to this in a minute, but 215 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: I think this would be one of the many things 216 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: that I would interpret as as possibly pointing to tears 217 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: serving a primarily interpersonal function in communication and signaling between 218 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: people exactly. Yeah, yeah, you can interpret it as meaning, well, 219 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: you know that you did not feel better, because the 220 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: the act of weeping is supposed to be communicating something 221 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: to another human being. Yeah, and it is supposed to 222 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: elicit a response from some But okay, so, so that 223 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: addresses the question of like subjective feelings of relief. You know, 224 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: sometimes people feel feelings of relief after crying, sometimes people don't. 225 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: But the other half of this, this intra personal interpretation, 226 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: you know it does does crying do something for you, 227 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: make to make your body better in some way, to 228 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: give you some kind of internal benefit. The other question 229 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: would be like, are there measurable ways that crying can 230 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: be found to improve well being apart from just the 231 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: the sort of immediate aftermath where you might feel a 232 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: feeling of relief or not. What about other types of 233 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: measures of physical and mental well being? Well, there was 234 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: one study I came across that looked into this question, 235 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: and it was by Hez Door for Vinger Hoots. That's 236 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: that's add Vingerhoots, So I mentioned in the previous episode, 237 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: and who will come up several more times in this 238 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: and Michael R. Tremble in eighteen called social and psychological 239 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: consequences of not crying possible associations with psychopathology and therapeutic relevance, 240 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: And basically, the authors were trying to look into the 241 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: question of okay, so that, um, what if you find 242 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: people who report that they essentially never cried after a 243 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: certain period in their life, they feel like they either 244 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: lost the ability to cry or just at some point 245 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: in their life they just stopped crying and just don't 246 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: cry anymore. Um, can we compare their out comes in 247 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: terms of standard measures of well being and social functioning 248 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: compared to people who do cry on a regular basis. 249 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: So they interviewed Auzy Hausborne because no more tears, that 250 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: would have been good, But now so they say quote. 251 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: Study participants included four hundred and seventy five people who 252 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: reportedly lost the capacity to cry and a hundred and 253 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: seventy nine normal control criers. Applied measures assessed crying, well being, empathy, attachment, 254 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: social support, and connection with others, and the authors had 255 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: hypothesized that people who don't cry would have lower well 256 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: being and poor social functioning compared to people who do cry. Uh, 257 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: and actually that's not exactly what they found. So they 258 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: did find some differences. So people who did not cry, 259 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: on average had fewer social connections and less social support, 260 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: and also had somewhat less empathy, though of course that's 261 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: not going to apply to everybody, and it's worth noting 262 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: that those things I just mentioned aren't necessarily a result 263 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: of not crying, but could maybe be causes of not crying, 264 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: or could maybe be correlates with similar underlying causes. Um. 265 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: But what they did what they did not find was 266 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: indications of lower well being. In turns, it actually found 267 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: that people who cry and people who don't cry were 268 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: about the same in terms of psychological measures of well being, 269 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: so you know, no more measurable depression, anxiety, and so forth. 270 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: Thank thank now. Studies like this don't mean that we 271 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: can be sure tears serve no intra personal purposes. You 272 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: certainly can't rule it out. Tears may well serve some 273 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: kind of purpose within the self, within the body, But personally, 274 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: I've become pretty well convinced while researching for these episodes 275 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: that the primary adaptive purpose of emotional tears is interpersonal, 276 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: meaning it's external, it's social, and relational and that tears 277 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: are prime merely for communicating something too and affecting the 278 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: behavior of other members of our species other people. Yeah, 279 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: I I after reading through Holy Tears, I I also 280 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: feel like this is a very strong hypothesis, uh, in 281 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: how they discuss the role of tears and religious rights 282 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: and rituals. But but one area that I do have 283 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: questions about would be, uh, the weeping during media um, 284 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: like during a film or something. You know. Uh, I 285 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: wonder if that is the same like when we weep 286 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: during motion pictures. Is that a communal experience or is 287 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: that a personal experience? Are we actually trying to communicate 288 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: something to other people viewing the film? Oh? Well, I 289 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: mean it wouldn't have to be It wouldn't have to 290 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: be intentional on your part. I mean, weeping is often involuntary. 291 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: It's usually involuntary, So weeping at a movie I think 292 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: could very well be not something you're trying to do 293 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: because you are in penstionally communicating with say the movie, 294 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: or with other people you're watching the movie with. But 295 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: instead it's a standard kind of response to um empathetic 296 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: connection with drama you are seeing unfold and your brain 297 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: can't really tell the difference between drama in media versus 298 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: drama that would be going on with people in your life. 299 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: So an adaptation that arises because it's useful with some 300 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: some kind of social signaling function for other people also 301 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: gets hijacked when you're watching a movie about people. That's true. 302 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: So basically what we're talking about here would be it's 303 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: like the old example of the train coming at the 304 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: screen and early movie go where it's like freaking out, 305 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: like ah, this the train is approaching. You jump because 306 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: it is uh, it is something that it is stimuli 307 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: that should cause you to jump and run away. But 308 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: the tearful scene, the emotional scene in an emotion picture, 309 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: that is something that is uh, that is more subtle, 310 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: and we're just going to respond to it as if 311 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: it is something that we should perhaps communally be responding to. Yeah. 312 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: I think the same way that a scary movie partially 313 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: simulates the feeling of real danger, or that a romantic 314 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: movie can cause some kind of romantic arousal. I mean, 315 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: it's all like, uh, there's a vicarious uh interaction with 316 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: what's going on in the media as if it were 317 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: taking place in real life. For a moment, I'd like 318 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: to come back to something we were talking about earlier, 319 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: the uh, the the hypothesis that there is a purging 320 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: of toxins going on during weeping, because this reminds me 321 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: of another topic we've discussed in the show before sweating. Uh. 322 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: You also see some of this, um, some of this 323 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: line of thinking being employed with sweating, sometimes with exercise, 324 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: but I've seen it particularly with with sauna traditions. Why 325 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: do people feel better after a sauna? What is a 326 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: sauna doing? And you do see this sometimes there is 327 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: this argument, well, when you're sweating, you're in the sauna, 328 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: you release toxins. Uh. But I, if memory serves the 329 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: situation is though when you look at like how much 330 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: is shed via sweating versus how much is truly shed 331 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: via urination? Um, there's just a huge gulf between those numbers. Uh. 332 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: So it doesn't really match up, but it but it 333 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: becomes difficult to untangle uh this not you know, concerning 334 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: how much is purge via sweating, how much is how 335 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: much would need to be purged to make a meaningful 336 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: impact on your physiology, and how much we feel or 337 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: believe we have purged having gone through the experience. Yeah, 338 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: it's funny. I'm also skeptical of the idea that this 339 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 1: is why people feel a relief and after sweating or 340 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: being in the song. I would expect probably it has 341 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: more to do with I don't know, the pleasurable hormones 342 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: that people get after, you know, exercise or something like that, 343 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: maybe endorphins or something of that nature. Um, I don't know. 344 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm just spitballing there. But but yeah, I would be 345 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: skeptical of that. And it's funny that what you say 346 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: is um parallel to some arguments that are made against 347 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: the detoxification hypothesis of tears, because um, much like with 348 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: your sweating example, there's probably just not enough of the 349 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: stuff in the tears to really make a major difference 350 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: in the body. But but but in the next episode, 351 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: I think we're going to get more into the direct 352 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: formulations of some of the main contending hypotheses for for 353 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: explaining the biological evolution of tears. That that will be 354 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: more in the next episode. But I did want to 355 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: talk about some some broad observations in the idea of 356 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: tears as an external or interpersonal adaptation, something that is 357 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: that serves a relational function and one piece of evidence 358 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: that seemed somewhat convincing to me that tears serve an 359 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: external and communicative purpose is that people just automatically, when 360 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: they observed tears, interpret them as conveying information about the 361 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: emotional states of the person who's crying. And it's not 362 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: just that you look at a person who's who's crying 363 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: and you say that person is sad. The tears themselves 364 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: seem to convey very important information. And this was illustrated 365 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: in some research I was reading about in a two 366 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: thousand ten NPR article by Alison Aubrey called Teary Eyed Evolution, 367 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: Crying serves a Purpose, and this featured an interview with 368 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: the researcher named Randolph Cornelius, who was a professor of 369 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: psychology at Vassar College. Uh. I'm citing this research in 370 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: particular because it came with what I thought was a 371 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: very useful visual aid. Um so so Cornelius, the psychologist 372 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: he he, he is arguing that tears are useful because 373 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: they convey information, and his research did something pretty clever. 374 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: It took photographs of people who were crying and then 375 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: digitally manipulated them to remove the tears. So you'd have 376 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: the same face with the same expression when the person 377 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: is crying, except without any tears visible in the eyes 378 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: or on the cheeks. And what the study found is 379 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: that people rated the same faces without tears as much 380 00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: more ambiguous. People consistently interpret tearful faces as sad, and 381 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: they interpret them as having stronger emotional value. But people 382 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: have a lot more difficulty inferring the feelings of those 383 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: same faces without the tears. And so, to quote from 384 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: Cornelius as as cited in this article, he says, quote, 385 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: tears also narrow the range of emotions people think the 386 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: models are experiencing. Tearful people are mostly seen as experiencing 387 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: emotions in the sadness family, sadness, grief, morning, and so forth. 388 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: And Robert, I really, once I looked at these images, 389 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: it really hit home for me, because, yeah, so it 390 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: will have two faces side by side. One is a 391 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: crying face and the other is the same exact face, 392 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: but photoshop to have the tears removed and the faces 393 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: without tears. Whereas there's like one in the middle of 394 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: a man crying with tears rolling down his cheeks and 395 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: he looks very sad. And in the picture right next 396 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: to him, without the tears, the same expression looks possibly 397 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: kind of like smug or defiant. Yeah, I thought, kind 398 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: of menacing. Like without the tears the tears removed, he 399 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: kind of looks like I like he thinking I might 400 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: just beat you up. But in the first one, it's 401 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: it's clear this man has been watching a sad football 402 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: movie and weeping openly. Uh. There's one that you shared 403 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: above this of a child or I think it's a 404 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: child looking up um, and with the tears are removed, 405 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: it seems like they're perhaps just looking at a bird 406 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: flying through the air, but with the tears, it's like 407 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: they are looking up at a crucifixion. Yeah. Yeah, The 408 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: same face without the tears could be interpreted is kind 409 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: of like, um, I don't know, maybe concerned, but also 410 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: displaying a possibly creepy kind of interest in something. Uh So, yeah, 411 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: at least to me, I immediately from these images can 412 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: see the informational value of tears. They radically reduce the 413 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: ambiguity in interpreting somebody else's facial expression, and and and 414 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: suddenly you're not wondering like what is this person thinking? 415 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: You immediately read them as like as kind of sad 416 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 1: and vulnerable and helpless and not dangerous, whereas the same 417 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: face without the tears is like, I don't know what's 418 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: up with this person? Now? Of course this is all this, 419 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: this all becomes more complicated when we we we think 420 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: about some of the exceptions to this this rule that 421 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: pop up, you know, regarding quinted person could be uh, 422 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: a teary eyed you know, perhaps they have some sort 423 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: of a tear gland situation going on, or perhaps there 424 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: is some sort of irritant in the air, um, something 425 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: of that nature. Perhaps they're their sinuses are are bothering them, 426 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: or they just yawned. But if you're just looking at them, 427 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: you're you're going to instantly go to that something something 428 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 1: powerful or bad has happened and this person may need 429 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: comfort in you know. This got me thinking about, um, 430 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: another way that tears might work. This is not something 431 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: that I found advocated in in any research, though somebody 432 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: might have put this forward and I haven't read about 433 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: it yet. Um, but this would be uh the idea 434 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: that what if tears are you useful as an honest 435 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: signal of emotions? That could have evolved as a response 436 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: to the evolution of deceit so uh so, So what 437 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm imagining here is, you know, humans are are complex 438 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: social animals managing complex social relationships, and human brains are 439 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: complex enough that humans can lie about what they feel, 440 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: and they can lie about who and what they care about. 441 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: But because tears are difficult to fake, I wonder if 442 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: maybe tears evolved as an honest signal of our true, 443 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: motivating feelings, who and what we actually care about and 444 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: how we feel about things. And thus I wonder if, 445 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: possibly in that way, they could be adaptive because they 446 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: make us more trustworthy. A person who cries about something 447 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: is less likely to be lying about what their feelings 448 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: about that thing are. This, of course makes my mind 449 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: instantly go to actor. But that I mean, that's kind 450 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: of a whole discussion in and of itself, because you 451 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: get into how is the actor summoning the tears? Are 452 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: they engaging with with actual tearful memories, or you know, 453 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: a deep reading of the script and so forth. But 454 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: ultimately the result is when you watch a film and 455 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: the actor is summoning tears, it it makes anything that's 456 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: going on on the screen more believable, no matter how 457 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: poor the screenplay, no matter how weird the lighting. If 458 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: the actor is is summoning actual tears in their performance 459 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: like that, that gives it a leg up. Yeah, and 460 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,239 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting that like most people, like 461 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: some people can cry on command, but most people would 462 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: have a hard time doing that, Like it's not easy 463 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: to do unless you have that that chunk of onion 464 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: in your in your handkerchief. Right, Is that the older 465 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: actor's trick? Yeah, I guess so. So, yeah, maybe it 466 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: has something to do with the evolution of deceit. But anyway, 467 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: that's just sort of like a weird thought that popped 468 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: into my head. Maybe that'll connect to some of the 469 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: hypotheses that we that we discussing more detail in the 470 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: next part. But I wanted to talk about another study 471 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: that was interesting about ways that tears might be useful 472 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: for interpersonal signaling and behavior manipulation. And this would be 473 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: something that's not focused on conveying information that's perceived consciously, 474 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: like what we were talking about with looking at tears 475 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: on people's faces a minute ago. This would be operating 476 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: at a subconscious level on the basis of chemical signaling 477 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: or chemo signaling. This next example is also good because 478 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: from what I can tell, this is a study that 479 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: led to some maybe very misleading headlines in popular coverage. 480 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: But anyway, so some studies in mice have found that 481 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: behaviorally relevant chemo signals in tears. So these would not 482 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: be emotional tears because mice don't shed emotional tears. These 483 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: would just be regular basil or reflex tears. These chemo 484 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: signals in mice include pheromones that uh, for example, can 485 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: do things like make male mice more attractive as mates, 486 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: or there can be chemo signals in juvenile mice that 487 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: prevent adults from attempting unwanted mating behaviors with with those mice, 488 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: so that they can have kind of uh, discouraging unwanted 489 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: behaviors and other mice. And picking up on that research, 490 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: there were some scientists who in your two thousand eleven 491 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: looked into whether there could be similar chemo signals in 492 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: human tears, and so this led to a study by 493 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: Shanny Gelstein at All published in Science called human tears 494 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: contain a chemo signal. Now, I want to be clear 495 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: that I'm often kind of skeptical about I'm not quite 496 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: sure why this is, but I think maybe because Uh. 497 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: There have been a few studies along these lines that 498 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: have later turned out to be not well founded. But 499 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm kind of skeptical about studies finding big macro behavioral 500 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: effects of imperceptible smells and stuff in humans, so I 501 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: would definitely want this verified by a good bit of 502 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: independent replication. But if this the finding of the study 503 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: is correct, what it found is that emotional tears in 504 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: humans tend to contain chemicals that change the behavior of adults, 505 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: especially adult men, possibly making them less aggressive and less 506 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: likely to experience sexual arousal, maybe making them more likely to, say, 507 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: provide care behaviors. The study measured this by having people 508 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: uh smell tears that were from from human donors, and 509 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: they found that tears that were produced by women who 510 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: were experiencing negative emotions, when men sniffed those tears, they 511 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: had reduced levels of testosterone, and they had reduced self 512 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: rated uh sexual arousal and reduced physiological measures of arousal. 513 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: And so what some headlines did with this is basically 514 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: they went with like the sexual angle and said that, oh, yeah, 515 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: tears will make you less attractive. Yeah, that feels like 516 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: a very a specific misread of of what they're trying 517 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: to say here, right, right. So, actually I was reading 518 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: there was a section that covered this in that article 519 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: by Mandy Oaklander that I mentioned a minute ago, and 520 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: it actually went back and interviewed one of the authors 521 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: of that that study in Science, Noam Sobel, who said, Okay, yeah, 522 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: it really generated some sort of misleading headlines that that 523 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: had the wrong takeaway from it, because even though they 524 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: did find that at least within this one studied emotional 525 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: tears lowered sexual arousal and men, he thinks that the 526 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: real interpretation, the correct interpretation of this finding is that 527 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: is that the chemo signals in this maybe reducing aggression, uh, 528 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: and that that men's tears may also have the same 529 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 1: effect as women's tears. And so the main takeaway would 530 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: not be that like tears are unattractive. It would be that, 531 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: like tears, if this finding is correct, serve to sort 532 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: of like put other biological draw vibes on hold and 533 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: sort of put put the men who smell them into 534 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: a kind of uh, caregiving mode. Now, one thing that 535 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: when possible issue that this raises for me though, is 536 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: that tears are also shed in rage, you know, so 537 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: one can easily imagine a scenario where if if one 538 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: warrior is coming at another and one warrior, uh, their 539 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: eyes are streaming with tears and their their faces snarling 540 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: like a beast, and they're coming at you with battle axe. Uh. 541 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: Is does that mean the other warrior is going to 542 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: suddenly let their guard down and and have this emotional 543 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: outpouring for the other warrior because tears are present like 544 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't really match up for me? No, and it well, 545 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: I mean sure if it does work this way, certainly 546 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't be that deterministic. It would just be an influence, 547 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: not like a you know, overriding every other consideration a 548 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: person could have. Though, I mean I would say that, Uh, 549 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 1: you can imagine even in a context of of people 550 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: of you know, warriors and killers, it seems is harder 551 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: to enact violence maybe on somebody who is crying like that. 552 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: Crying does serve pretty often to sort of neutralize aggression. Yeah. 553 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: But but then again, I guess we have to remember 554 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: that it does not occur in a vacuum. Like we 555 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: have the human facial communication array, we have body posture. Uh, 556 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: and you know that is also augmented by us or 557 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: or or non use of tools and weapons, like there's 558 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: there there are a number of other signals that would 559 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: be in place in addition to the tears. Even if 560 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: the tears had this ability to augment what's going on 561 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: with the with the our facial features. Yeah, I mean, 562 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: we're constantly processing all kinds of signals and information. Tears 563 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: would be one input among many. You know, they might 564 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: have an influence in one way, but you know you 565 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: might be able to ignore that influence if you've got 566 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: strong motivations. Uh. In all this, like, I can't help 567 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: but be reminded of an old Halloween Disney cartoon. Perhaps 568 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: you've seen it, in which there is a paging gorilla 569 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: and um and Donald Duck is there, and the Huey 570 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,479 Speaker 1: Dewy and Louis are there, and they're running around being 571 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: chased by this gorilla. They're they're able to eventually subdue 572 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: the gorilla using tear gas. Tear gas, of course, has 573 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: does not have an emotional context. It isn't It is 574 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: an irritant. But in this cartoon, when the gas of 575 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: the tear, when the tear gas reaches the eyes of 576 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: both Duck and Ape, it produces tears that are then 577 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: instantly emotional tears confusing the categories. Yeah, yeah, there's some 578 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: some some wonderful category confusion there. So anyway, I'm not 579 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: sure what I think about the idea of tears as 580 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: chemo signals, though I do feel pretty well convinced that 581 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: there are some kind of signal, and it might be 582 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: a signal of the more the more straightforward kind that 583 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: we were talking about before we're observing them has some 584 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: pretty reliable cognitive effects. People see the tears and react 585 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: in a certain way. And and there are some indications 586 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: also that UM that tears, maybe emotional tears, may be 587 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: specially designed to be seen. Like I was reading in 588 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: one of these articles UM a finding that has alleged 589 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: that emotional tears tend to contain higher protein content than 590 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: um uh than just like basil or reflex tears. Though 591 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: that I'm not sure how well that finding holds up, 592 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: because I might have read that that had been that 593 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: had been contradicted as well. But if that is the case, UM, 594 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: one hypothesized explanation for that is that the additional protein 595 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: content of the tears causes them to be thicker, meaning 596 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: that they take longer to roll down the cheek so 597 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: emotional tears, if this is true, would be more visible 598 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: than just say, like your eyes overflowing with tears because 599 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: they're irritated. Those thinner tears might just sort of wash away, 600 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: whereas the emotion, the thicker emotional tears hang on the 601 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: cheek and sort of stick to your skin and other 602 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: people can see them more easily. Now this is very 603 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: interesting because it brings to mind two different things. One, 604 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: what happens when there is makeup of some sort in 605 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: place on the face, uh, And you can see this, 606 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, across the spectrum any kind of uh makeup 607 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: that might be worn on the face, especially for some 608 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: sort of ritual scenario. And then if there's weeping, it 609 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: has the potential to make the tears all the more apparent. 610 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: And this also reminds me of something I was reading 611 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: in Holy Tears. Apparently there have been accounts of of 612 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: there are various accounts of weeping blood um in in 613 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,760 Speaker 1: in cultures, and there was there's this possibility that there 614 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: there are some mourners that have been reported to have 615 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: engaged in rituals in ancient Turkey where they would score 616 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 1: their faces um during the ritual before the ritual and anyway, 617 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: the result would be that you would have blood and 618 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: tears mixed together. Uh, thus sort augmenting the tears with 619 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: blood and or or the reverse augmenting the blood with 620 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: tears causing this this increased flow. Well, yeah, and playing 621 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 1: on the intuition that tears are are meaningful, and they're 622 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: meaningful if they are seen. They're meant to be visually seen, 623 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: and of course the one way to hide them is 624 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: you do you're crying in the rain, right like in 625 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: the Affily Brothers song. Okay, you know, there's one observation 626 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: that I came across that struck me as really interesting. 627 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: This was not from a scientific study. Actually just heard 628 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: this in a video I was watching. So Vox has 629 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: a video series called Glad You Asked that's hosted by 630 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: somebody somebody named Joss Fong, and they had an episode 631 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: on tears, and there was a part in the episode 632 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: where somebody observed that tears are the only body fluid 633 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't tend to gross other people out. And that 634 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: struck me as really interesting. So the idea of getting 635 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: somebody else's urine or feces, blood, sweat, spit, mucus, etcetera, 636 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: any of that getting any of that on you most 637 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: of the time people would find all of these options disgusting. 638 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: The the suggestion here is that tears are the only 639 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: fluid secreted by the body that doesn't usually provoke a 640 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: disgust reaction in others. And I don't know of any 641 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: empirical research to back up this observation. It might exist, 642 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: but it does ring true to me, and it strikes 643 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: me as as notable. Yeah, yeah, um, I mean it's hard. 644 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: It's hard to reflect on any actual experience with that. 645 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: I feel like any time that I've gotten, say, my 646 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: son's tears on me, it's almost always been their emotional tears. 647 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: Then there's gonna be mucus as well, you know, so 648 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: in that case it's like, yeah, I probably need to 649 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,359 Speaker 1: change shirts. But but but once you're apparent, you get 650 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: all kinds of fluids on you, and that just I think, 651 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: you know, oh yeah, yeah, from urine and everything else. 652 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: But I guess with you know, with the with the tears, 653 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: I can I can unders understand that. Yeah, I can 654 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: certainly match u, especially when I think about the time 655 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: that he shot tears into my mouth. Um, by virtue 656 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: of his tear Duck situation. At the time, I was 657 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: not it was more interesting as opposed to to a 658 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: gross out moment um. I also was looking around because 659 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, maybe there's some notable exception in 660 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: human culture, and I thought I had some like some 661 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: flag came up in my memory of some faint, faint 662 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: example of something where maybe tears had some sort of 663 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: a negative connotation, maybe involved with say like um, you know, 664 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: the pershing of bodily energies or the imbalance of energies. 665 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: But I couldn't find anything. Maybe I'll find something and 666 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: we'll share in the future. But it does seem to 667 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: be pretty universal, and even then it would not I 668 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: don't know if it would necessarily be that the tears 669 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: themselves have any kind of unclean aspect to them. It 670 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 1: would be something about like the deeper body or the 671 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: or some sort of alleged energy system of the body. 672 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: In the same way, whereas if you if you might 673 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: and I'm not saying this is fair, but if you 674 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: were judgmental of somebody for crying during space jam, um 675 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: adult crying during space jam, you might you might well 676 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: argue that this that they shouldn't have done so, uh, 677 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: that they didn't have proper emotional reason to do so, 678 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: But you wouldn't think anything less with the actual substance 679 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: of their tears, Like, keep those space Jam tears away 680 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: from me, do not let them soil my body. I 681 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't trust anybody who did not cry during Space Jam. 682 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: You go, maybe they're the hole of these tears. All. Yeah, 683 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: as long as we're off the subject and reaching the 684 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: end of the podcast, what have you? What do you 685 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: make of old Pinhead saying, um, you know, no, no tears. 686 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: It's a waste of good suffering. I always felt that 687 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: safe old tears. Yeah, I always felt like that was 688 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: a bit off brand, Like what do you what are you? 689 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: What are you expecting to happen? Like I thought pain 690 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: and suffering was your whole bag, but suddenly like crying 691 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: is not allowed. Yeah, at what point does he think 692 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: it's okay for the tears to begin? Yeah, it seems 693 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of closed minded pin it. Well, it is interesting 694 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: that in the context of the movie, these would be uh, 695 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: if it's hell Raiser, these would be anticipatory tears, right, 696 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 1: tears that are in response to terror at the idea 697 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: of suffering yet to come. And yet there are some 698 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: people who have put forward models of emotional tears that 699 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: sort of say the opposite, that say tears are a 700 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,839 Speaker 1: sort of step down the signal. I'm not sure I'm 701 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: convinced by this actually, but it at least has been alleged. 702 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: I could imagine a scenario. Okay, if you're gonna think 703 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: long and hard about the cenobytes of of Clive Barker 704 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: cell raiser, you could say, well, they're all about actual senses, 705 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: actual senses of of pleasure and pain, and therefore the 706 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: emotional context of pleasure and pain might be completely lost 707 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: on them, because yeah, they're all about like stick and 708 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: hooks and things and and so forth, and and the 709 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: tightening of leather, not so much about anticipating the pain 710 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: or reflecting on the pain. So I don't know, now 711 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: I'm back backtracking. Maybe it is totally on brand, but 712 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: maybe maybe would have been more impactful if if ten 713 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: had had been said something like just to express that 714 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 1: he doesn't even understand what's happening. What are you doing? Why? 715 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: Why is there liquid coming out of your face? Liquid 716 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: shouldn't be coming out of your body unless it is 717 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: a response to direct physical stimuli. Since I mentioned it, 718 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,520 Speaker 1: I figured I might as well explain the idea of 719 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: the sort of step down theory of tears. Um So. 720 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 1: I was reading about this in an article in The 721 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: Washington Post from April sixteen by Mary Kim called the 722 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: Science of a Good Cry, and this involved an interview 723 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: with an emeritus professor of psychology at Temple University named J. E. Ron, 724 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: who had advocated what was called in this article a 725 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: two stage theory of emotional tears, which would be kind 726 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 1: of similar to the two stage theory of laughter, which 727 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: posits that maybe laughter functions when tension is first raised 728 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: by the setup of a joke and then suddenly lowered 729 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: by the punch lines that stepped down to the lower 730 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: level of tension. Under this theory, that causes the laughter 731 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: as the result of a joke. Uh The idea here 732 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: is that maybe crying works in a similar fashion. Uh So, 733 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 1: I want to read a quote from this article that's 734 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: explaining a friend's view here. Uh. Quote, people experience a 735 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: crying fit when something happens to first spark high anxiety 736 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: or distress, followed by a moment of recalibration or release. 737 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: For instance, a child that loses his mother at the 738 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: grocery store. Begins by frantically searching for her, getting more 739 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: and more worried as he scans the aisles. Suddenly he 740 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: hears her call his name from behind, sees her comforting face, 741 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: and promptly bursts into tears. And uh and uh. It 742 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 1: goes on to explain how this could maybe also work 743 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: for things that appear to be tears of joy. Um, 744 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: maybe like while you're planning a wedding for your child, 745 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,439 Speaker 1: you know they're there's sort of a high anxiety, high 746 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: stress preparation stage, but then during the ceremony itself, it's 747 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,240 Speaker 1: kind of everything is culminated and then there's a release 748 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: of tension and then you cry. So, according to this 749 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: this hypothesis here, emotional tears would occur not really at 750 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: the onset of distress, but at the onset of relief 751 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: from distress. I'm not sure how convinced I am by this. 752 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how well it lines up with actual 753 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: instances of crying, but it does seem to be somewhat corroborated, 754 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: at least by um what parts of the nervous system 755 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: seem to be activated, like crying does seem to be 756 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:36,439 Speaker 1: more associated with activation of the parasympathetic nervous system as 757 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: opposed to the sympathetic nervous system. So the sympathetic nervous 758 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: system is what's usually associated with high stress conditions, fight 759 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: or flight, goose bumps, all that kind of thing. And 760 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: then usually when you when you're done with a sympathetic 761 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: nervous system response, you know, the the high stress is subsided, 762 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: you shift back down into activation of the parasympathetic nervous system, 763 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: which is often known as the relax and restore war 764 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: system or the rest and digest system. It's the stuff 765 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: that's uh normal, involuntary activities of the body that are 766 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 1: happening when you're not in a state of heightened stress 767 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: or anxiety. And this is the system that crying seems 768 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,399 Speaker 1: to be more associated with. Uh So, so that would 769 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 1: be an interesting indication in favor of this this two 770 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: stage emotional tier theory. But still I'm not sure how 771 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: correctly the theory rings. Just with experience of wind crying 772 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: happens and how it happens. Yeah, I mean, it just 773 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: it becomes so complex when you start trying to tease 774 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: a part you know, emotional and physical responses to you know, 775 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: often you know complex stimuli. That is, you know, this 776 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: is something kind of thing that you know, Pinhead's not 777 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: gonna understand. It's just a it's a it's a tangled 778 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: knot of human emotion. Oh we did, We did get 779 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: set off on that whole thing, but Pinhead didn't. We 780 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: we did, we did. Alright, Well, on that note, we're 781 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and close out this part two of 782 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: our look at Tears. We are going to come back 783 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: with part three, and I'm excited to get into some 784 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: of the mythological and religious stuff a bit more in 785 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: that one, but there will be a short gap. We 786 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: have a special interview episode that we're excited about that's 787 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: gonna air Tuesday, and then the following Thursday, we should 788 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: be back with Tears Part three. If all goes according 789 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 1: to plan. Yeah, if it doesn't, that means something changed. 790 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yes, we'll 791 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: have to get into that. What's with all the teeth gnashing? 792 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe we'll get into that in part three. 793 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 1: What does nash ing mean? What is it? What is 794 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: it to nash to bite to like grind your teeth? 795 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: I was just imagine that. Yeah, just kind of like 796 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: weeping and just you know, um, so perhaps we should 797 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: explore that, maybe maybe there there's some legs to that question. 798 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: Experts on gnashing right in. Yeah, all right. If you 799 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 1: want to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow 800 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: Your Mind, you'll find them all on the Stuff to 801 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,720 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind podcast feed, which you can find wherever 802 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: you get your podcast. We have core episodes in two 803 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: season Thursdays, Artifact on Wednesday, listener Mail on Monday, Weird 804 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 1: House set Him on Friday. That's when we just kick 805 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: back and discuss a weird movie, and then on the 806 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 1: weekend we have a rerun of a core episode. Huge 807 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 808 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:16,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 809 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 810 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you 811 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow your 812 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 813 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 814 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 815 00:46:40,040 --> 00:47:00,240 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.