Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is a longer one part of the series where
Speaker 1: I interview fascinating people about how they take their days
Speaker 1: from great to awesome and their advice for the rest
Speaker 1: of us. Today, I am delighted to welcome Serena Bowen
Speaker 1: to the program. Serena is the author of the thriller
Speaker 1: The Five Year Lie, which recently hit number one on Audible,
Speaker 1: and she's also a USA Today best selling author of
Speaker 1: several romances, including the Brooklyn Bruisers series. So, Serena, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: So maybe you could tell our listeners just a little
Speaker 1: bit about yourself.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a full time writer of fiction, and sometimes
Speaker 2: it really freaks people out when I tell them that
Speaker 2: I write between two and four books every year, and
Speaker 2: a lot of people think I could never do that.
Speaker 2: A lot of people think, well, they must be really terrible.
Speaker 2: You know. There's varying reactions. I do possibly leave my
Speaker 2: house a below average number of times in a week,
Speaker 2: so that's one way that that happens. But It's something
Speaker 2: I always wanted to do, and writing stories for a
Speaker 2: living is really a privilege, and I just try not
Speaker 2: to forget.
Speaker 1: That absolutely, Because you had a career in finance before this, correct, right, right.
Speaker 2: The business aspects of publishing have always been really interesting
Speaker 2: to me, and I do spend an above average amount
Speaker 2: of time thinking about it.
Speaker 1: Was it hard to make that career transition? I mean,
Speaker 1: what sort of precipitated that?
Speaker 2: You know? I just always knew that I would, Like,
Speaker 2: I knew that I was really interested in writing and publishing,
Speaker 2: and I also knew that I went to school on
Speaker 2: deep financial aid with student loans that needed repaying. But
Speaker 2: like I said, business has always been appealing to me.
Speaker 2: So a twelve year career on Wall Street was really
Speaker 2: kind of fun. Like I learned so much and I
Speaker 2: don't regret it, but I always knew I would leave.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so how many books have you written at
Speaker 1: this point? Because you mentioned that, yes, novelists are often
Speaker 1: especially you are quite prolific, and that may be something
Speaker 1: with the romance genre because the readers read a lot
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: That's correct, that's right, yeah. But the other reason that
Speaker 2: it has to do with genre of fiction is that
Speaker 2: I also write in series, so I am not starting
Speaker 2: over every time I write a new book, Like I
Speaker 2: know something about the setting and I know the characters,
Speaker 2: and there's like a greater storyline going on, and that
Speaker 2: really does speed it up. Like if if you told
Speaker 2: me I had to write four books in a year
Speaker 2: and they were all unconnected, then I don't think I
Speaker 2: could ever do that.
Speaker 1: So for something like The Brooklyn Bruisers, which is a
Speaker 1: hockey romance series, correct, like, how many books would something
Speaker 1: like that be in a series?
Speaker 2: Well, that one ultimately split off and became ten ten
Speaker 2: Okay that I started writing in twenty fifteen, and you
Speaker 2: know that series went on for like eight years. So yeah,
Speaker 2: the working in a series just speeds you up, and
Speaker 2: it explains a lot of the mystery of how I
Speaker 2: can write so many books in a year.
Speaker 1: But you still need to come up with a lot
Speaker 1: of ideas. I mean, even if you are inhabiting the
Speaker 1: same universe and have some of the same main characters,
Speaker 1: they obviously have to do something different in the next
Speaker 1: novel versus the one that somebody has just read. So
Speaker 1: maybe you could talk a little bit about how you
Speaker 1: do come up with ideas.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, and it's honestly my favorite part because
Speaker 2: when you're at the idea stage of any project, you
Speaker 2: haven't made any missteps yet, you haven't painted yourself into
Speaker 2: any corners. The world is still your oyster. You can
Speaker 2: go wherever you want. And that doesn't mean it's always
Speaker 2: easy to come up with the idea that I need.
Speaker 2: But the other thing that's really fun about this job
Speaker 2: is you get to lean in to your own fascinations.
Speaker 2: There is a terrific author and researcher named Jennifer Lynn Barnes.
Speaker 2: She is the author of a New York Times best
Speaker 2: selling young adult series, but she is also a researcher
Speaker 2: in psychology and a professor, and she studies fandoms and
Speaker 2: our engagement with fictional worlds, and when she talks to authors,
Speaker 2: one of the things he talks about is keeping an
Speaker 2: id list, which means those locations and ideas and images
Speaker 2: that always get to you that you always like and
Speaker 2: so for She would use as an example in her
Speaker 2: speech that she likes rooftops and ice cream, and every
Speaker 2: single book she's ever read has a lot of rooftop scenes,
Speaker 2: and everybody always likes ice cream, so like, whatever you
Speaker 2: like that calls to you probably calls to another reader somewhere.
Speaker 2: And if you become very familiar with the things that
Speaker 2: really speak to you in a book, then it makes
Speaker 2: it easier for you to draw upon these things when
Speaker 2: you're stuck. So another way I like to think about
Speaker 2: this is one time I asked all of my friends
Speaker 2: what stories do you always click on in the news,
Speaker 2: And I have like a list of these myself. For example,
Speaker 2: I will I don't have any pets, but I will
Speaker 2: click on any story about a dog that had to
Speaker 2: go six hundred miles to find its way home or
Speaker 2: something like that. And I don't really have much to
Speaker 2: do with fine art, but I will click on any
Speaker 2: story about somebody who found a rembrant in their basement,
Speaker 2: or an art heist or recovered painting that was lost
Speaker 2: for fifty years. So we all have these grooves that
Speaker 2: were always interested. And I am particularly interested in cybersecurity
Speaker 2: and personal security and also privacy and the way that
Speaker 2: it's just changing so much. So I will read Wired
Speaker 2: magazine from cover to cover every month, so all of
Speaker 2: my own personal fascinations can make it into a book.
Speaker 2: Like you mentioned the five year Lie in my bio.
Speaker 2: That book has a really fun hook about a woman
Speaker 2: who gets a text and it doesn't make any sense
Speaker 2: because it turns out that that text was delivered months
Speaker 2: after it was sent and this is a real thing
Speaker 2: that happened in the news, and you can look it up,
Speaker 2: and so it's that kind of little story like I'll
Speaker 2: hear it. Somebody told that story to me, and that
Speaker 2: book did not come out for five years because I
Speaker 2: didn't know where it fit in. But if you are
Speaker 2: somebody like me who needs a lot of ideas and
Speaker 2: who needs to use those ideas regularly, then you are
Speaker 2: well served to find a way to keep all of
Speaker 2: these things close. So that means developing a notebook where
Speaker 2: you keep your idea. So I have a page at
Speaker 2: the back of my planner. It's called one line ideas,
Speaker 2: and usually those things come from a news story like
Speaker 2: I'm a police case that was resolved in a really
Speaker 2: weird way, or a couple that met in a really
Speaker 2: strange way, or you know, just just a one line idea,
Speaker 2: as the page is called. But then I also have
Speaker 2: a notebook for plots, where every page is like a
Speaker 2: book idea, like a true a plot, and it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter how good these are, and it doesn't actually matter
Speaker 2: if the thing that I start writing about on the
Speaker 2: first line actually turns out to be a good idea
Speaker 2: for a book or not. Like I've got a whole
Speaker 2: page to sort of prove that it's interesting or prove
Speaker 2: that it's really actually not that great, And when I
Speaker 2: am brainstorming, I will take this notebook off the shelf
Speaker 2: and I will page through it, and invariably I will
Speaker 2: find some little drops of gold in there that I
Speaker 2: was like, oh gosh, that really was a good idea.
Speaker 2: And then most of my books end up being like
Speaker 2: two of these ideas, and I just it maybe took
Speaker 2: me a while to realize that they go together.
Speaker 1: That is amazing, And I love that they don't all
Speaker 1: have to be good ideas from the get go. You're
Speaker 1: not saying like, I'm only writing it down if it's
Speaker 1: you know, going to be another best selling book, Like
Speaker 1: you don't know that going in right now.
Speaker 2: What you write down are those things that like tickle
Speaker 2: you for a second where you're reading the paper and
Speaker 2: you could just be scrolling, scrolling, tronal, but then you
Speaker 2: read a thing you're like, wait, wait, hold on, and
Speaker 2: then you write that down so you can save it
Speaker 2: to think about it later, or you give it ten
Speaker 2: minutes of your time to like see if it wants
Speaker 2: to be something now. But it's it's the act of
Speaker 2: stopping to say, hold on, that's different, that's speaking to me,
Speaker 2: that's interesting, And to give yourself permission to recognize those
Speaker 2: moments so that you can sort of institutionalize a way
Speaker 2: of saving that stuff. Because I don't know about you,
Speaker 2: but I can't remember anything right, Like I'm giving you
Speaker 2: this long lecture about how to remember things, and I'm
Speaker 2: just a total wrack like everybody else, Like what's on
Speaker 2: my shopping list? I've got no idea? And yeah, So
Speaker 2: another thing that I've had to do over the years
Speaker 2: is to recognize that when you are in the middle
Speaker 2: of writing a novel, which is somebody's like complete life story,
Speaker 2: because they kind of all are, you cannot give as
Speaker 2: much attention to other things in your life. Like that
Speaker 2: occupies a really large part of your consciousness. And if
Speaker 2: you want to write novels for a living, like you
Speaker 2: have to make your peace with that, Like you just
Speaker 2: don't have as much left over because it's just a
Speaker 2: lot of work.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break
Speaker 1: and then we will be back with more from Serena
Speaker 1: Bowen on her being so prolific and how she structures
Speaker 1: her time to get so much done. Well, I am back.
Speaker 1: This is one of the longer Before Breakfast episodes where
Speaker 1: we interview fascinating people about how they structure their lives.
Speaker 1: So Serena Bowen, who has written numerous romance novels also
Speaker 1: a best selling thriller author, is talking about how she
Speaker 1: comes up with ideas. And you just mentioned, Serena that
Speaker 1: you need to have the focus to write fiction, like
Speaker 1: you're not going to get much else done in your life.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what a day looks like for you and
Speaker 1: how you create this sort of mental space where you
Speaker 1: are focused on cranking out these books. I mean as
Speaker 1: you write, you know, say four of them a year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I knew you were going to ask me this.
Speaker 2: The truth is that I wish I could come on
Speaker 2: this podcast and say, well, I am one of those
Speaker 2: people who writes before I look at Facebook or you know,
Speaker 2: I've never had my day blown up by opening my
Speaker 2: email inbox. But I am not that person. Like I'm
Speaker 2: just as distractable and messy as everybody. And there are
Speaker 2: when people also ask me when they hear everything about
Speaker 2: my business, like oh, what percentage of it is writing
Speaker 2: and what percentage of it is business? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't even want to know, because I fear the
Speaker 2: answer to that question is a number that you know
Speaker 2: would send me to drink. I on the other hand,
Speaker 2: the only way to write a novel is to find
Speaker 2: some immersive time. And sometimes my solution for the evils
Speaker 2: of my inbox, and they are legion, is to get
Speaker 2: away from the computer itself. So I find myself writing
Speaker 2: a lot on paper when I am in my notebook.
Speaker 2: It is sort of like a special location in my
Speaker 2: brain that is free from other kinds of distractions. And
Speaker 2: I guess I think differently with a piece of paper
Speaker 2: and pen than I think when I'm sitting in front
Speaker 2: of my keyboard. So feeling free to get away from
Speaker 2: the computer is really important. I think I would get
Speaker 2: a lot less done. And the other thing that is
Speaker 2: really crucial to me changing gears, because I think I've
Speaker 2: told you before that I'm not very good at shifting
Speaker 2: is something that we do in writing called pre writing.
Speaker 2: But I think works in other parts of your life too,
Speaker 2: which is when you announce to yourself what you're going
Speaker 2: to do. So when I sit down with that notebook,
Speaker 2: I might literally write on the page, well, chapter four
Speaker 2: is going to be a problem because I have to
Speaker 2: solve the matter of how he got into the house
Speaker 2: without revealing that the keys are lost, so you know,
Speaker 2: and then I will just talk it out essentially with
Speaker 2: my own, you know, struggling brain, because that is like
Speaker 2: a shortcut to getting the correct thing to write. So
Speaker 2: writing itself is lots of things. It's like, what is
Speaker 2: the plot? But it's also what words did I use?
Speaker 2: And you can't start three paragraphs in a row with
Speaker 2: the letter I.
Speaker 1: And just it's all you could but look terrible. So
Speaker 1: it's what are you actually writing out scenes than long hand?
Speaker 1: You are in a notebook writing scenes in your novel.
Speaker 2: Yes, but usually they start out as just little notes
Speaker 2: and then maybe.
Speaker 1: Like here I'm solving the problem how he got in
Speaker 1: the house, okay, right?
Speaker 2: Or sometimes even when I and then almost all the time,
Speaker 2: I end up maybe just scribbling out lines of dialogue,
Speaker 2: and that starts moving things along faster, so then I
Speaker 2: might actually on the next line write out all paragraph
Speaker 2: of description, and suddenly I am actually writing the book,
Speaker 2: like without having intentionally made that transition. So it's like
Speaker 2: tricking myself into producing the next piece of work, even
Speaker 2: when I feel that mentally, I'm still considering the next
Speaker 2: piece of work. And it's an ex ileant because if
Speaker 2: you discard your first three ideas, like okay, so the
Speaker 2: first thing that happens is this, and then oh no,
Speaker 2: that wasn't right. Okay, then actually the first thing that
Speaker 2: happens is this, and if you fight it out a
Speaker 2: little bit, then whatever you go and write in the
Speaker 2: actual document will is more likely to be correct and
Speaker 2: that I won't end up leading it later. So you know,
Speaker 2: this isn't a bad way to solve lots of problems
Speaker 2: like how what is this project supposed to look like?
Speaker 2: You know? Anyway, it's it's useful, and I have tried
Speaker 2: very hard to teach my children this, like how to
Speaker 2: write what you're going to do before you write the thing,
Speaker 2: and it's I've had varying success.
Speaker 1: Okay, But do you in order to have this sort
Speaker 1: of immersive time, I mean, do you just start writing
Speaker 1: at a certain point in the morning. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you have a work day that looks like a work day,
Speaker 1: or do you kind of do it here and there?
Speaker 2: Okay, I would love to say that I was really
Speaker 2: at that, and I'm just not.
Speaker 1: You start when you start.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because honestly, usually it's it's my inbox, like I
Speaker 2: will look to see what's happened, and sometimes the thing
Speaker 2: that's in there is like a big deal, and I,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's somebody telling me like, okay, here's
Speaker 2: your audio book back, here are all your files, and
Speaker 2: now go upload it. You know, so I can't plan
Speaker 2: my day because it's just it's never the same. There
Speaker 2: are there are all entire weeks that I spend all
Speaker 2: on business admin, and then there are weeks where I
Speaker 2: just actually last week finished writing a book, which took
Speaker 2: me a little longer than I thought, and the number
Speaker 2: of hours a day I spent just writing that book
Speaker 2: was such an extreme number.
Speaker 1: And then you just sort of decided that the business
Speaker 1: stuff would happen later. Yeah, you emerged from that cocoon, right.
Speaker 2: I had no choice, and I really had to turn
Speaker 2: up my words per day meter, and it kind of
Speaker 2: it kind of stank, honestly, like it was really hard.
Speaker 2: But but I did it, and I hadn't had to
Speaker 2: do that in a long time. So at the same time,
Speaker 2: when I was done, I had the satisfaction of looking
Speaker 2: at that production and being like, you know what, if
Speaker 2: you really have to do this, if it has to
Speaker 2: get done, Look, you just did that, Like, yeah, that
Speaker 2: is a word count that you finished. You finished the
Speaker 2: novel and turned it in. Like if you had asked
Speaker 2: me one month previously if I was capable of writing
Speaker 2: the last twenty thousand words of a novel in four
Speaker 2: and a half days, I would have laughed like, no,
Speaker 2: that is never happening. But then I that's what I
Speaker 2: had to do, So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did it. All right. Well, we're going
Speaker 1: to take one more quick ad break and we will
Speaker 1: be back with Serena Bowen. Well, I am here with
Speaker 1: Serena Bowen, who is a prolific novelist written several best
Speaker 1: romance novels, the recent A five Year Lie, which is
Speaker 1: a thriller that you can check out number one on
Speaker 1: audible recently. So you read that one, right, Serena.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed the transition to writing suspense from romance.
Speaker 2: It was you know, it was a good time learning
Speaker 2: how to do something new.
Speaker 1: Well, was it very different? I mean, obviously you're still
Speaker 1: constructing a plot and you're still coming up with good
Speaker 1: ideas and executing on those ideas. So what made it different, Like,
Speaker 1: what part of this involved shifting gears for you?
Speaker 2: Well, in suspense, the promise that the writer is making
Speaker 2: to the reader is just different. And you are promising
Speaker 2: the reader that you will trick them a little bit,
Speaker 2: like you have to give them some clues to go on,
Speaker 2: but then they get they're allowed to figure out parts
Speaker 2: of it, but not the whole thing. So you have
Speaker 2: this swinging pendulum of doubt that if you haven't put
Speaker 2: that into the book, then you have not written a thriller.
Speaker 2: And that is a trick that I had to learn
Speaker 2: from scratch when I started, and I as I as
Speaker 2: I go forward, I realized that I didn't understand it
Speaker 2: well enough when I embarked. I mean, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: written an entire proposal in like a giant chuck of
Speaker 2: the book to sell it. I still didn't quite understand
Speaker 2: the job until I got neck deep in it, and
Speaker 2: then I had to figure it out in a hurry.
Speaker 1: So well, and one of the tricky things about that
Speaker 1: I would imagine is you know what you know, right,
Speaker 1: but you really have to put yourself in the reader's
Speaker 1: head and like knowing what you know, but then making
Speaker 1: sure that they don't know what you know? And how
Speaker 1: are you ever sure, because of course you know? So
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very curious how one threads that needle there. Well.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I have found and still believe, after having written
Speaker 2: two thrillers at least by now, because the second one
Speaker 2: comes out in May, is that your editor becomes more
Speaker 2: important with suspense because ultimately you need somebody to tell
Speaker 2: you how heavily or lightly you have shaded in any
Speaker 2: particular thing. So that second read from a cold reader
Speaker 2: becomes more important in suspense. And I'm not sure there's
Speaker 2: any way around that. Although if you ask me ten
Speaker 2: years from now, can I learn to do that for
Speaker 2: my own books? I might say yes, because I have
Speaker 2: evolved that capacity for romance at least, like I can
Speaker 2: figure out what my reader's experience is, and maybe someday
Speaker 2: I'll be able to do that in suspense too. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure yes.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could talk about a time
Speaker 1: management challenge you have faced recently, and maybe how you
Speaker 1: address that.
Speaker 2: Well, I have had this desire. People talk about writing
Speaker 2: as a job you can do from anywhere, and I
Speaker 2: have not in my life, and I'm a good decade
Speaker 2: into this job so far experienced that to be true.
Speaker 2: So when I was a little baby, writer only a
Speaker 2: couple of books in, I used to have to leave
Speaker 2: my house to get good blocks of writing done because
Speaker 2: I would look at the dishes in the sink and
Speaker 2: I would do that first, and I was just unable
Speaker 2: to sit down in chaos and write for some reason.
Speaker 2: So I would go to a library and I would
Speaker 2: feed the meter and I would have two hours and
Speaker 2: they better count. And that is how I was productive.
Speaker 2: But then I slowly transitioned into somebody who could work
Speaker 2: at home, and I got really good at that. But
Speaker 2: also the silence and the lack of stimulation around me
Speaker 2: became like my new crutch. So I would like to
Speaker 2: be somebody who can travel and you know, rite on
Speaker 2: airplanes and write in hotel rooms and you know, have
Speaker 2: a life where I get away from this place sometimes.
Speaker 2: So that is what I'm trying to work on now.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's so easy to try technology as a
Speaker 2: crutch for solving these problems, like I bought the fancy
Speaker 2: Bo's headphones and then I forget to bring them with me,
Speaker 2: and you know, so.
Speaker 1: I wonder have you had any success of writing somewhere
Speaker 1: other than your house?
Speaker 2: Now I'm getting there. I mean it started with me
Speaker 2: just really saying loudly like this is a thing I
Speaker 2: need to figure out and I don't know if I
Speaker 2: can do it, and then having friends like ask me,
Speaker 2: you know, well, why is that like? And it turns
Speaker 2: out it was less about cafe noise and more about
Speaker 2: me struggling to switch between tasks. So if I am traveling,
Speaker 2: then can't I can't move my brain into a working space.
Speaker 2: I'll just be thinking about the next thing we're going
Speaker 2: to do. And then, like I said, I had this
Speaker 2: crazy crunch time deadline that I just survived, and I
Speaker 2: had a business trip in the middle of it where
Speaker 2: I went to Philadelphia for two days and then I
Speaker 2: went to Toronto for one day, and then I came home,
Speaker 2: and my deadline is just inching closer by the minute.
Speaker 2: So I really had to figure out how to write
Speaker 2: on the plane and how to not go down to
Speaker 2: the hotel bar and see people that I knew but
Speaker 2: rather to lock myself away in the hotel room and work.
Speaker 2: And you know that the needing to do it is
Speaker 2: what helped me understand that it was possible, and hopefully,
Speaker 2: under easier circumstances, I will be able to do it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe when you don't have to crank out twenty
Speaker 1: thousand words in four days or whatever it was. Yeah, exactly. Well, so, Serena,
Speaker 1: what is something you have done recently to take a
Speaker 1: day from great too awesome? Well?
Speaker 2: I have just begun taking ice skating lessons. Oh and
Speaker 2: one of the cool things about writing fiction is that
Speaker 2: suddenly everything in your life is research. When I was
Speaker 2: a derivatives trader on Wall Street, this was not true.
Speaker 2: It had the benefit of when you left the office,
Speaker 2: you really left the office, like you were not required
Speaker 2: to think of your job because at least at that
Speaker 2: moment in time, there was no way. There was literally
Speaker 2: no way to do your job if you're not there.
Speaker 2: So but this is the opposite of that, which is
Speaker 2: that you can do any fun new thing and make
Speaker 2: it matter for work. So in this particular case, my
Speaker 2: husband had begun taking these skating lessons because he wants
Speaker 2: to play hockey and I have skated all my life,
Speaker 2: but in circles like everybody else, you know. So I
Speaker 2: realized that I had a character who was a skating
Speaker 2: coach in an upcoming book, and I thought, I don't
Speaker 2: know how skating coaches talk. I can watch a lot
Speaker 2: of YouTube videos and probably figure it out. But here's
Speaker 2: this class. It's twenty dollars an hour, and I own
Speaker 2: the skates already. I'm just gonna go to the class.
Speaker 2: So I did that, and it has been so much fun.
Speaker 2: Like first of all, today I finally figured out how
Speaker 2: to do figure eights on my outside edge, thank you
Speaker 2: very much, And that, you know, has taken me a
Speaker 2: good month to knock out. But just the the ape
Speaker 2: feel of doing something badly, like it doesn't matter if
Speaker 2: I become a good skater, it could not matter less.
Speaker 2: But it's really good exercise. It makes me use my
Speaker 2: mind in a brand new way. And I also use
Speaker 2: my corporate credit card because it's research exactly.
Speaker 1: It's all research, right, All of life is fodder. This
Speaker 1: is wonderful. So Serena tell our listeners where they can
Speaker 1: find you.
Speaker 2: I am at Instagram and Threads as Serena dot Bowen
Speaker 2: and my books are at all of the bookstores.
Speaker 1: Awesome, well, Serena, thank you so much for joining us,
Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone for listening to one of
Speaker 1: these longer interview episodes. If you have feedback for me
Speaker 1: on this or any other episode, you can reach me
Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime,
Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
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