WEBVTT - How to get great ideas, with Sarina Bowen 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:09.240 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:15.280 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.439 episode is a longer one part of the series where 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.920 I interview fascinating people about how they take their days 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.799 from great to awesome and their advice for the rest 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.840 of us. Today, I am delighted to welcome Serena Bowen 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.200 to the program. Serena is the author of the thriller 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.599 The Five Year Lie, which recently hit number one on Audible, 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.879 and she's also a USA Today best selling author of 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:45.360 several romances, including the Brooklyn Bruisers series. So, Serena, welcome 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:45.920 to the show. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:47.840 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:50.960 So maybe you could tell our listeners just a little 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:51.839 bit about yourself. 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:58.800 Well, I'm a full time writer of fiction, and sometimes 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.280 it really freaks people out when I tell them that 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:08.440 I write between two and four books every year, and 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:10.880 a lot of people think I could never do that. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.960 A lot of people think, well, they must be really terrible. 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:19.240 You know. There's varying reactions. I do possibly leave my 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.080 house a below average number of times in a week, 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:30.760 so that's one way that that happens. But It's something 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.640 I always wanted to do, and writing stories for a 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.039 living is really a privilege, and I just try not 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:39.959 to forget. 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:45.480 That absolutely, Because you had a career in finance before this, correct, right, right. 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.880 The business aspects of publishing have always been really interesting 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.160 to me, and I do spend an above average amount 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.320 of time thinking about it. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.880 Was it hard to make that career transition? I mean, 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:57.960 what sort of precipitated that? 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.640 You know? I just always knew that I would, Like, 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.480 I knew that I was really interested in writing and publishing, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.000 and I also knew that I went to school on 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.960 deep financial aid with student loans that needed repaying. But 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.760 like I said, business has always been appealing to me. 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.440 So a twelve year career on Wall Street was really 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:21.080 kind of fun. Like I learned so much and I 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.399 don't regret it, but I always knew I would leave. 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.079 Yeah, And so how many books have you written at 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.720 this point? Because you mentioned that, yes, novelists are often 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.800 especially you are quite prolific, and that may be something 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.760 with the romance genre because the readers read a lot 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:39.280 as well. 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.440 That's correct, that's right, yeah. But the other reason that 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.440 it has to do with genre of fiction is that 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.760 I also write in series, so I am not starting 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.640 over every time I write a new book, Like I 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.160 know something about the setting and I know the characters, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.480 and there's like a greater storyline going on, and that 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:01.960 really does speed it up. Like if if you told 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:03.520 me I had to write four books in a year 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.040 and they were all unconnected, then I don't think I 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:07.920 could ever do that. 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.000 So for something like The Brooklyn Bruisers, which is a 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.800 hockey romance series, correct, like, how many books would something 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:17.320 like that be in a series? 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:21.840 Well, that one ultimately split off and became ten ten 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:27.480 Okay that I started writing in twenty fifteen, and you 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:33.200 know that series went on for like eight years. So yeah, 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.880 the working in a series just speeds you up, and 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.480 it explains a lot of the mystery of how I 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:39.960 can write so many books in a year. 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.080 But you still need to come up with a lot 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.000 of ideas. I mean, even if you are inhabiting the 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.280 same universe and have some of the same main characters, 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:50.920 they obviously have to do something different in the next 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.440 novel versus the one that somebody has just read. So 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.920 maybe you could talk a little bit about how you 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.440 do come up with ideas. 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.800 Absolutely, I mean, and it's honestly my favorite part because 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.520 when you're at the idea stage of any project, you 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:09.400 haven't made any missteps yet, you haven't painted yourself into 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.040 any corners. The world is still your oyster. You can 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:17.480 go wherever you want. And that doesn't mean it's always 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.640 easy to come up with the idea that I need. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:24.360 But the other thing that's really fun about this job 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.320 is you get to lean in to your own fascinations. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:36.160 There is a terrific author and researcher named Jennifer Lynn Barnes. 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.479 She is the author of a New York Times best 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.160 selling young adult series, but she is also a researcher 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:51.680 in psychology and a professor, and she studies fandoms and 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:59.039 our engagement with fictional worlds, and when she talks to authors, 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.279 one of the things he talks about is keeping an 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:10.480 id list, which means those locations and ideas and images 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.720 that always get to you that you always like and 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.160 so for She would use as an example in her 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.080 speech that she likes rooftops and ice cream, and every 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.159 single book she's ever read has a lot of rooftop scenes, 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.440 and everybody always likes ice cream, so like, whatever you 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.960 like that calls to you probably calls to another reader somewhere. 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.920 And if you become very familiar with the things that 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.320 really speak to you in a book, then it makes 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.040 it easier for you to draw upon these things when 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:44.040 you're stuck. So another way I like to think about 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.479 this is one time I asked all of my friends 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.799 what stories do you always click on in the news, 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.560 And I have like a list of these myself. For example, 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.440 I will I don't have any pets, but I will 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.480 click on any story about a dog that had to 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.680 go six hundred miles to find its way home or 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:07.080 something like that. And I don't really have much to 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.280 do with fine art, but I will click on any 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.039 story about somebody who found a rembrant in their basement, 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.440 or an art heist or recovered painting that was lost 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:21.200 for fifty years. So we all have these grooves that 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:27.040 were always interested. And I am particularly interested in cybersecurity 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:32.440 and personal security and also privacy and the way that 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.799 it's just changing so much. So I will read Wired 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.400 magazine from cover to cover every month, so all of 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.680 my own personal fascinations can make it into a book. 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.000 Like you mentioned the five year Lie in my bio. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.080 That book has a really fun hook about a woman 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.760 who gets a text and it doesn't make any sense 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.839 because it turns out that that text was delivered months 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.560 after it was sent and this is a real thing 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.640 that happened in the news, and you can look it up, 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.440 and so it's that kind of little story like I'll 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.760 hear it. Somebody told that story to me, and that 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:10.920 book did not come out for five years because I 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:13.680 didn't know where it fit in. But if you are 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.400 somebody like me who needs a lot of ideas and 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:22.360 who needs to use those ideas regularly, then you are 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.440 well served to find a way to keep all of 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.920 these things close. So that means developing a notebook where 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.280 you keep your idea. So I have a page at 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.080 the back of my planner. It's called one line ideas, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.120 and usually those things come from a news story like 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.640 I'm a police case that was resolved in a really 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.840 weird way, or a couple that met in a really 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.200 strange way, or you know, just just a one line idea, 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.800 as the page is called. But then I also have 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:59.120 a notebook for plots, where every page is like a 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.080 book idea, like a true a plot, and it doesn't 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.679 matter how good these are, and it doesn't actually matter 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.920 if the thing that I start writing about on the 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.480 first line actually turns out to be a good idea 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.680 for a book or not. Like I've got a whole 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.600 page to sort of prove that it's interesting or prove 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:21.000 that it's really actually not that great, And when I 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.559 am brainstorming, I will take this notebook off the shelf 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.000 and I will page through it, and invariably I will 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.360 find some little drops of gold in there that I 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.720 was like, oh gosh, that really was a good idea. 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.560 And then most of my books end up being like 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.840 two of these ideas, and I just it maybe took 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:41.600 me a while to realize that they go together. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.000 That is amazing, And I love that they don't all 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.040 have to be good ideas from the get go. You're 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.000 not saying like, I'm only writing it down if it's 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.240 you know, going to be another best selling book, Like 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.240 you don't know that going in right now. 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.440 What you write down are those things that like tickle 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.120 you for a second where you're reading the paper and 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.320 you could just be scrolling, scrolling, tronal, but then you 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.440 read a thing you're like, wait, wait, hold on, and 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.920 then you write that down so you can save it 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.760 to think about it later, or you give it ten 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.400 minutes of your time to like see if it wants 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.520 to be something now. But it's it's the act of 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:24.760 stopping to say, hold on, that's different, that's speaking to me, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.440 that's interesting, And to give yourself permission to recognize those 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:32.720 moments so that you can sort of institutionalize a way 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.160 of saving that stuff. Because I don't know about you, 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:38.679 but I can't remember anything right, Like I'm giving you 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.360 this long lecture about how to remember things, and I'm 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.240 just a total wrack like everybody else, Like what's on 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.400 my shopping list? I've got no idea? And yeah, So 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.600 another thing that I've had to do over the years 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.720 is to recognize that when you are in the middle 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:58.080 of writing a novel, which is somebody's like complete life story, 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:04.160 because they kind of all are, you cannot give as 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.839 much attention to other things in your life. Like that 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.800 occupies a really large part of your consciousness. And if 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:14.920 you want to write novels for a living, like you 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.160 have to make your peace with that, Like you just 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.200 don't have as much left over because it's just a 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:21.120 lot of work. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.640 Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.760 and then we will be back with more from Serena 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.280 Bowen on her being so prolific and how she structures 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:39.880 her time to get so much done. Well, I am back. 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.080 This is one of the longer Before Breakfast episodes where 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.600 we interview fascinating people about how they structure their lives. 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.960 So Serena Bowen, who has written numerous romance novels also 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.360 a best selling thriller author, is talking about how she 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.040 comes up with ideas. And you just mentioned, Serena that 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.360 you need to have the focus to write fiction, like 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.280 you're not going to get much else done in your life. 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.640 I'm curious what a day looks like for you and 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.719 how you create this sort of mental space where you 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:11.880 are focused on cranking out these books. I mean as 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.640 you write, you know, say four of them a year. 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:16.640 Yeah, well, I knew you were going to ask me this. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.720 The truth is that I wish I could come on 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.120 this podcast and say, well, I am one of those 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.839 people who writes before I look at Facebook or you know, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.920 I've never had my day blown up by opening my 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.960 email inbox. But I am not that person. Like I'm 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.400 just as distractable and messy as everybody. And there are 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.120 when people also ask me when they hear everything about 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.560 my business, like oh, what percentage of it is writing 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.600 and what percentage of it is business? And I'm like, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.440 I don't even want to know, because I fear the 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.880 answer to that question is a number that you know 0:11:55.480 --> 0:12:02.800 would send me to drink. I on the other hand, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.560 the only way to write a novel is to find 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:14.280 some immersive time. And sometimes my solution for the evils 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:18.680 of my inbox, and they are legion, is to get 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:25.000 away from the computer itself. So I find myself writing 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:30.080 a lot on paper when I am in my notebook. 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:35.360 It is sort of like a special location in my 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:41.080 brain that is free from other kinds of distractions. And 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.080 I guess I think differently with a piece of paper 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.480 and pen than I think when I'm sitting in front 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:55.360 of my keyboard. So feeling free to get away from 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.000 the computer is really important. I think I would get 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.640 a lot less done. And the other thing that is 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:06.880 really crucial to me changing gears, because I think I've 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.320 told you before that I'm not very good at shifting 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:15.280 is something that we do in writing called pre writing. 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.480 But I think works in other parts of your life too, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.440 which is when you announce to yourself what you're going 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.359 to do. So when I sit down with that notebook, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:31.240 I might literally write on the page, well, chapter four 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:34.080 is going to be a problem because I have to 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:38.199 solve the matter of how he got into the house 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.360 without revealing that the keys are lost, so you know, 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.400 and then I will just talk it out essentially with 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:50.679 my own, you know, struggling brain, because that is like 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:55.960 a shortcut to getting the correct thing to write. So 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.640 writing itself is lots of things. It's like, what is 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.920 the plot? But it's also what words did I use? 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.000 And you can't start three paragraphs in a row with 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:04.800 the letter I. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.000 And just it's all you could but look terrible. So 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.080 it's what are you actually writing out scenes than long hand? 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.439 You are in a notebook writing scenes in your novel. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.600 Yes, but usually they start out as just little notes 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.760 and then maybe. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.560 Like here I'm solving the problem how he got in 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:23.400 the house, okay, right? 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.920 Or sometimes even when I and then almost all the time, 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.120 I end up maybe just scribbling out lines of dialogue, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.520 and that starts moving things along faster, so then I 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.400 might actually on the next line write out all paragraph 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.480 of description, and suddenly I am actually writing the book, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:51.240 like without having intentionally made that transition. So it's like 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.040 tricking myself into producing the next piece of work, even 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.240 when I feel that mentally, I'm still considering the next 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.400 piece of work. And it's an ex ileant because if 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.520 you discard your first three ideas, like okay, so the 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.840 first thing that happens is this, and then oh no, 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.960 that wasn't right. Okay, then actually the first thing that 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:12.800 happens is this, and if you fight it out a 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.240 little bit, then whatever you go and write in the 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.800 actual document will is more likely to be correct and 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.000 that I won't end up leading it later. So you know, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.600 this isn't a bad way to solve lots of problems 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.800 like how what is this project supposed to look like? 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:35.200 You know? Anyway, it's it's useful, and I have tried 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.000 very hard to teach my children this, like how to 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.440 write what you're going to do before you write the thing, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.479 and it's I've had varying success. 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.640 Okay, But do you in order to have this sort 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.160 of immersive time, I mean, do you just start writing 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:52.840 at a certain point in the morning. I mean, do 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.600 you have a work day that looks like a work day, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:56.800 or do you kind of do it here and there? 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.800 Okay, I would love to say that I was really 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:01.200 at that, and I'm just not. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.040 You start when you start. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.680 Yeah, because honestly, usually it's it's my inbox, like I 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.520 will look to see what's happened, and sometimes the thing 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.320 that's in there is like a big deal, and I, 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.280 you know, maybe it's somebody telling me like, okay, here's 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.920 your audio book back, here are all your files, and 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.840 now go upload it. You know, so I can't plan 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:30.840 my day because it's just it's never the same. There 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.760 are there are all entire weeks that I spend all 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.240 on business admin, and then there are weeks where I 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.920 just actually last week finished writing a book, which took 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.160 me a little longer than I thought, and the number 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.760 of hours a day I spent just writing that book 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.400 was such an extreme number. 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.120 And then you just sort of decided that the business 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.080 stuff would happen later. Yeah, you emerged from that cocoon, right. 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.800 I had no choice, and I really had to turn 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.320 up my words per day meter, and it kind of 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.600 it kind of stank, honestly, like it was really hard. 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.520 But but I did it, and I hadn't had to 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.280 do that in a long time. So at the same time, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.639 when I was done, I had the satisfaction of looking 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.680 at that production and being like, you know what, if 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.879 you really have to do this, if it has to 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.479 get done, Look, you just did that, Like, yeah, that 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.159 is a word count that you finished. You finished the 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.560 novel and turned it in. Like if you had asked 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.879 me one month previously if I was capable of writing 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.400 the last twenty thousand words of a novel in four 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.880 and a half days, I would have laughed like, no, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.080 that is never happening. But then I that's what I 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.000 had to do, So. 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:44.359 Yeah, and you did it. All right. Well, we're going 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.120 to take one more quick ad break and we will 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:55.760 be back with Serena Bowen. Well, I am here with 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:59.880 Serena Bowen, who is a prolific novelist written several best 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.919 romance novels, the recent A five Year Lie, which is 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:07.000 a thriller that you can check out number one on 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.800 audible recently. So you read that one, right, Serena. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:21.600 I really enjoyed the transition to writing suspense from romance. 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:23.760 It was you know, it was a good time learning 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:24.800 how to do something new. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.000 Well, was it very different? I mean, obviously you're still 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:31.520 constructing a plot and you're still coming up with good 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.399 ideas and executing on those ideas. So what made it different, Like, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.159 what part of this involved shifting gears for you? 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.680 Well, in suspense, the promise that the writer is making 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:48.199 to the reader is just different. And you are promising 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.000 the reader that you will trick them a little bit, 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.919 like you have to give them some clues to go on, 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:59.160 but then they get they're allowed to figure out parts 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.560 of it, but not the whole thing. So you have 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.320 this swinging pendulum of doubt that if you haven't put 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.720 that into the book, then you have not written a thriller. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.920 And that is a trick that I had to learn 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.840 from scratch when I started, and I as I as 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.919 I go forward, I realized that I didn't understand it 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.000 well enough when I embarked. I mean, you know, I'd 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.240 written an entire proposal in like a giant chuck of 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.640 the book to sell it. I still didn't quite understand 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.320 the job until I got neck deep in it, and 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.080 then I had to figure it out in a hurry. 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:35.879 So well, and one of the tricky things about that 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:40.120 I would imagine is you know what you know, right, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.440 but you really have to put yourself in the reader's 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:47.119 head and like knowing what you know, but then making 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.840 sure that they don't know what you know? And how 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.159 are you ever sure, because of course you know? So 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.080 I'm I'm very curious how one threads that needle there. Well. 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.080 Honestly, I have found and still believe, after having written 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:06.920 two thrillers at least by now, because the second one 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.840 comes out in May, is that your editor becomes more 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:15.520 important with suspense because ultimately you need somebody to tell 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.359 you how heavily or lightly you have shaded in any 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.240 particular thing. So that second read from a cold reader 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.400 becomes more important in suspense. And I'm not sure there's 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.080 any way around that. Although if you ask me ten 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.680 years from now, can I learn to do that for 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.600 my own books? I might say yes, because I have 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:44.480 evolved that capacity for romance at least, like I can 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.679 figure out what my reader's experience is, and maybe someday 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.680 I'll be able to do that in suspense too. I'm 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:51.600 not sure yes. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.840 So I wonder if you could talk about a time 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:59.480 management challenge you have faced recently, and maybe how you 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:00.320 address that. 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:11.560 Well, I have had this desire. People talk about writing 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.000 as a job you can do from anywhere, and I 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.520 have not in my life, and I'm a good decade 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.920 into this job so far experienced that to be true. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.879 So when I was a little baby, writer only a 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.200 couple of books in, I used to have to leave 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.400 my house to get good blocks of writing done because 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:35.320 I would look at the dishes in the sink and 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.920 I would do that first, and I was just unable 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:44.959 to sit down in chaos and write for some reason. 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.560 So I would go to a library and I would 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.119 feed the meter and I would have two hours and 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:53.560 they better count. And that is how I was productive. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.400 But then I slowly transitioned into somebody who could work 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.320 at home, and I got really good at that. But 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:08.800 also the silence and the lack of stimulation around me 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:13.399 became like my new crutch. So I would like to 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.720 be somebody who can travel and you know, rite on 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.840 airplanes and write in hotel rooms and you know, have 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.360 a life where I get away from this place sometimes. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.280 So that is what I'm trying to work on now. 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.359 And sometimes it's so easy to try technology as a 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.200 crutch for solving these problems, like I bought the fancy 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.119 Bo's headphones and then I forget to bring them with me, 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:40.640 and you know, so. 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.040 I wonder have you had any success of writing somewhere 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:44.119 other than your house? 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.680 Now I'm getting there. I mean it started with me 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.040 just really saying loudly like this is a thing I 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:53.080 need to figure out and I don't know if I 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.879 can do it, and then having friends like ask me, 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.600 you know, well, why is that like? And it turns 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:05.240 out it was less about cafe noise and more about 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.480 me struggling to switch between tasks. So if I am traveling, 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:16.400 then can't I can't move my brain into a working space. 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.639 I'll just be thinking about the next thing we're going 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:21.560 to do. And then, like I said, I had this 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:26.480 crazy crunch time deadline that I just survived, and I 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.480 had a business trip in the middle of it where 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.600 I went to Philadelphia for two days and then I 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.040 went to Toronto for one day, and then I came home, 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.960 and my deadline is just inching closer by the minute. 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:41.359 So I really had to figure out how to write 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:45.000