1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: episode is a longer one part of the series where 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: I interview fascinating people about how they take their days 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: from great to awesome and their advice for the rest 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: of us. Today, I am delighted to welcome Serena Bowen 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: to the program. Serena is the author of the thriller 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: The Five Year Lie, which recently hit number one on Audible, 9 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: and she's also a USA Today best selling author of 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: several romances, including the Brooklyn Bruisers series. So, Serena, welcome 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: to the show. 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: So maybe you could tell our listeners just a little 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: bit about yourself. 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: Well, I'm a full time writer of fiction, and sometimes 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: it really freaks people out when I tell them that 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: I write between two and four books every year, and 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: a lot of people think I could never do that. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: A lot of people think, well, they must be really terrible. 20 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: You know. There's varying reactions. I do possibly leave my 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: house a below average number of times in a week, 22 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 2: so that's one way that that happens. But It's something 23 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: I always wanted to do, and writing stories for a 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: living is really a privilege, and I just try not 25 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 2: to forget. 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: That absolutely, Because you had a career in finance before this, correct, right, right. 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: The business aspects of publishing have always been really interesting 28 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: to me, and I do spend an above average amount 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: of time thinking about it. 30 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: Was it hard to make that career transition? I mean, 31 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: what sort of precipitated that? 32 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: You know? I just always knew that I would, Like, 33 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: I knew that I was really interested in writing and publishing, 34 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: and I also knew that I went to school on 35 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: deep financial aid with student loans that needed repaying. But 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: like I said, business has always been appealing to me. 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: So a twelve year career on Wall Street was really 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: kind of fun. Like I learned so much and I 39 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,399 Speaker 2: don't regret it, but I always knew I would leave. 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so how many books have you written at 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: this point? Because you mentioned that, yes, novelists are often 42 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: especially you are quite prolific, and that may be something 43 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: with the romance genre because the readers read a lot 44 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: as well. 45 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: That's correct, that's right, yeah. But the other reason that 46 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: it has to do with genre of fiction is that 47 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: I also write in series, so I am not starting 48 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: over every time I write a new book, Like I 49 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: know something about the setting and I know the characters, 50 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 2: and there's like a greater storyline going on, and that 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: really does speed it up. Like if if you told 52 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: me I had to write four books in a year 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 2: and they were all unconnected, then I don't think I 54 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 2: could ever do that. 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: So for something like The Brooklyn Bruisers, which is a 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: hockey romance series, correct, like, how many books would something 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: like that be in a series? 58 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: Well, that one ultimately split off and became ten ten 59 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: Okay that I started writing in twenty fifteen, and you 60 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: know that series went on for like eight years. So yeah, 61 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: the working in a series just speeds you up, and 62 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: it explains a lot of the mystery of how I 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: can write so many books in a year. 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: But you still need to come up with a lot 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: of ideas. I mean, even if you are inhabiting the 66 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: same universe and have some of the same main characters, 67 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: they obviously have to do something different in the next 68 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: novel versus the one that somebody has just read. So 69 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: maybe you could talk a little bit about how you 70 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: do come up with ideas. 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, and it's honestly my favorite part because 72 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: when you're at the idea stage of any project, you 73 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: haven't made any missteps yet, you haven't painted yourself into 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: any corners. The world is still your oyster. You can 75 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 2: go wherever you want. And that doesn't mean it's always 76 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: easy to come up with the idea that I need. 77 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: But the other thing that's really fun about this job 78 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: is you get to lean in to your own fascinations. 79 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 2: There is a terrific author and researcher named Jennifer Lynn Barnes. 80 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: She is the author of a New York Times best 81 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: selling young adult series, but she is also a researcher 82 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: in psychology and a professor, and she studies fandoms and 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 2: our engagement with fictional worlds, and when she talks to authors, 84 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: one of the things he talks about is keeping an 85 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: id list, which means those locations and ideas and images 86 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: that always get to you that you always like and 87 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: so for She would use as an example in her 88 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: speech that she likes rooftops and ice cream, and every 89 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: single book she's ever read has a lot of rooftop scenes, 90 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: and everybody always likes ice cream, so like, whatever you 91 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: like that calls to you probably calls to another reader somewhere. 92 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: And if you become very familiar with the things that 93 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: really speak to you in a book, then it makes 94 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: it easier for you to draw upon these things when 95 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: you're stuck. So another way I like to think about 96 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 2: this is one time I asked all of my friends 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,799 Speaker 2: what stories do you always click on in the news, 98 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: And I have like a list of these myself. For example, 99 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: I will I don't have any pets, but I will 100 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 2: click on any story about a dog that had to 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: go six hundred miles to find its way home or 102 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: something like that. And I don't really have much to 103 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: do with fine art, but I will click on any 104 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: story about somebody who found a rembrant in their basement, 105 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: or an art heist or recovered painting that was lost 106 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: for fifty years. So we all have these grooves that 107 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: were always interested. And I am particularly interested in cybersecurity 108 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: and personal security and also privacy and the way that 109 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 2: it's just changing so much. So I will read Wired 110 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: magazine from cover to cover every month, so all of 111 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: my own personal fascinations can make it into a book. 112 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: Like you mentioned the five year Lie in my bio. 113 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: That book has a really fun hook about a woman 114 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: who gets a text and it doesn't make any sense 115 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 2: because it turns out that that text was delivered months 116 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: after it was sent and this is a real thing 117 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: that happened in the news, and you can look it up, 118 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: and so it's that kind of little story like I'll 119 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: hear it. Somebody told that story to me, and that 120 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: book did not come out for five years because I 121 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: didn't know where it fit in. But if you are 122 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: somebody like me who needs a lot of ideas and 123 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: who needs to use those ideas regularly, then you are 124 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: well served to find a way to keep all of 125 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: these things close. So that means developing a notebook where 126 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: you keep your idea. So I have a page at 127 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: the back of my planner. It's called one line ideas, 128 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: and usually those things come from a news story like 129 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: I'm a police case that was resolved in a really 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: weird way, or a couple that met in a really 131 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: strange way, or you know, just just a one line idea, 132 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: as the page is called. But then I also have 133 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: a notebook for plots, where every page is like a 134 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: book idea, like a true a plot, and it doesn't 135 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 2: matter how good these are, and it doesn't actually matter 136 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: if the thing that I start writing about on the 137 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: first line actually turns out to be a good idea 138 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: for a book or not. Like I've got a whole 139 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: page to sort of prove that it's interesting or prove 140 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: that it's really actually not that great, And when I 141 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,559 Speaker 2: am brainstorming, I will take this notebook off the shelf 142 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: and I will page through it, and invariably I will 143 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: find some little drops of gold in there that I 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: was like, oh gosh, that really was a good idea. 145 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 2: And then most of my books end up being like 146 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: two of these ideas, and I just it maybe took 147 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 2: me a while to realize that they go together. 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: That is amazing, And I love that they don't all 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: have to be good ideas from the get go. You're 150 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: not saying like, I'm only writing it down if it's 151 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, going to be another best selling book, Like 152 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: you don't know that going in right now. 153 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: What you write down are those things that like tickle 154 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: you for a second where you're reading the paper and 155 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: you could just be scrolling, scrolling, tronal, but then you 156 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: read a thing you're like, wait, wait, hold on, and 157 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: then you write that down so you can save it 158 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: to think about it later, or you give it ten 159 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: minutes of your time to like see if it wants 160 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: to be something now. But it's it's the act of 161 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: stopping to say, hold on, that's different, that's speaking to me, 162 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: that's interesting, And to give yourself permission to recognize those 163 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 2: moments so that you can sort of institutionalize a way 164 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: of saving that stuff. Because I don't know about you, 165 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 2: but I can't remember anything right, Like I'm giving you 166 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: this long lecture about how to remember things, and I'm 167 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: just a total wrack like everybody else, Like what's on 168 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: my shopping list? I've got no idea? And yeah, So 169 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: another thing that I've had to do over the years 170 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: is to recognize that when you are in the middle 171 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: of writing a novel, which is somebody's like complete life story, 172 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: because they kind of all are, you cannot give as 173 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 2: much attention to other things in your life. Like that 174 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: occupies a really large part of your consciousness. And if 175 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: you want to write novels for a living, like you 176 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: have to make your peace with that, Like you just 177 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 2: don't have as much left over because it's just a 178 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: lot of work. 179 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break 180 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: and then we will be back with more from Serena 181 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: Bowen on her being so prolific and how she structures 182 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: her time to get so much done. Well, I am back. 183 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: This is one of the longer Before Breakfast episodes where 184 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: we interview fascinating people about how they structure their lives. 185 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: So Serena Bowen, who has written numerous romance novels also 186 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: a best selling thriller author, is talking about how she 187 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: comes up with ideas. And you just mentioned, Serena that 188 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: you need to have the focus to write fiction, like 189 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: you're not going to get much else done in your life. 190 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm curious what a day looks like for you and 191 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: how you create this sort of mental space where you 192 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: are focused on cranking out these books. I mean as 193 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: you write, you know, say four of them a year. 194 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I knew you were going to ask me this. 195 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: The truth is that I wish I could come on 196 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: this podcast and say, well, I am one of those 197 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 2: people who writes before I look at Facebook or you know, 198 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: I've never had my day blown up by opening my 199 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: email inbox. But I am not that person. Like I'm 200 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: just as distractable and messy as everybody. And there are 201 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: when people also ask me when they hear everything about 202 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: my business, like oh, what percentage of it is writing 203 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: and what percentage of it is business? And I'm like, 204 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: I don't even want to know, because I fear the 205 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: answer to that question is a number that you know 206 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: would send me to drink. I on the other hand, 207 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: the only way to write a novel is to find 208 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: some immersive time. And sometimes my solution for the evils 209 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: of my inbox, and they are legion, is to get 210 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: away from the computer itself. So I find myself writing 211 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: a lot on paper when I am in my notebook. 212 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: It is sort of like a special location in my 213 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: brain that is free from other kinds of distractions. And 214 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 2: I guess I think differently with a piece of paper 215 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: and pen than I think when I'm sitting in front 216 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: of my keyboard. So feeling free to get away from 217 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: the computer is really important. I think I would get 218 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: a lot less done. And the other thing that is 219 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: really crucial to me changing gears, because I think I've 220 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: told you before that I'm not very good at shifting 221 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: is something that we do in writing called pre writing. 222 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: But I think works in other parts of your life too, 223 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: which is when you announce to yourself what you're going 224 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,359 Speaker 2: to do. So when I sit down with that notebook, 225 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: I might literally write on the page, well, chapter four 226 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: is going to be a problem because I have to 227 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 2: solve the matter of how he got into the house 228 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: without revealing that the keys are lost, so you know, 229 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: and then I will just talk it out essentially with 230 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: my own, you know, struggling brain, because that is like 231 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: a shortcut to getting the correct thing to write. So 232 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: writing itself is lots of things. It's like, what is 233 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: the plot? But it's also what words did I use? 234 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: And you can't start three paragraphs in a row with 235 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: the letter I. 236 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: And just it's all you could but look terrible. So 237 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: it's what are you actually writing out scenes than long hand? 238 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: You are in a notebook writing scenes in your novel. 239 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: Yes, but usually they start out as just little notes 240 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: and then maybe. 241 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: Like here I'm solving the problem how he got in 242 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: the house, okay, right? 243 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: Or sometimes even when I and then almost all the time, 244 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: I end up maybe just scribbling out lines of dialogue, 245 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: and that starts moving things along faster, so then I 246 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: might actually on the next line write out all paragraph 247 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: of description, and suddenly I am actually writing the book, 248 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: like without having intentionally made that transition. So it's like 249 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: tricking myself into producing the next piece of work, even 250 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: when I feel that mentally, I'm still considering the next 251 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: piece of work. And it's an ex ileant because if 252 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: you discard your first three ideas, like okay, so the 253 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: first thing that happens is this, and then oh no, 254 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: that wasn't right. Okay, then actually the first thing that 255 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: happens is this, and if you fight it out a 256 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: little bit, then whatever you go and write in the 257 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: actual document will is more likely to be correct and 258 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: that I won't end up leading it later. So you know, 259 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: this isn't a bad way to solve lots of problems 260 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: like how what is this project supposed to look like? 261 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: You know? Anyway, it's it's useful, and I have tried 262 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: very hard to teach my children this, like how to 263 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: write what you're going to do before you write the thing, 264 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,479 Speaker 2: and it's I've had varying success. 265 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: Okay, But do you in order to have this sort 266 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: of immersive time, I mean, do you just start writing 267 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: at a certain point in the morning. I mean, do 268 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: you have a work day that looks like a work day, 269 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: or do you kind of do it here and there? 270 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 2: Okay, I would love to say that I was really 271 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: at that, and I'm just not. 272 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: You start when you start. 273 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, because honestly, usually it's it's my inbox, like I 274 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: will look to see what's happened, and sometimes the thing 275 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: that's in there is like a big deal, and I, 276 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's somebody telling me like, okay, here's 277 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: your audio book back, here are all your files, and 278 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: now go upload it. You know, so I can't plan 279 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: my day because it's just it's never the same. There 280 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: are there are all entire weeks that I spend all 281 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: on business admin, and then there are weeks where I 282 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: just actually last week finished writing a book, which took 283 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: me a little longer than I thought, and the number 284 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: of hours a day I spent just writing that book 285 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: was such an extreme number. 286 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: And then you just sort of decided that the business 287 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: stuff would happen later. Yeah, you emerged from that cocoon, right. 288 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: I had no choice, and I really had to turn 289 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: up my words per day meter, and it kind of 290 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: it kind of stank, honestly, like it was really hard. 291 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: But but I did it, and I hadn't had to 292 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: do that in a long time. So at the same time, 293 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: when I was done, I had the satisfaction of looking 294 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 2: at that production and being like, you know what, if 295 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: you really have to do this, if it has to 296 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 2: get done, Look, you just did that, Like, yeah, that 297 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: is a word count that you finished. You finished the 298 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: novel and turned it in. Like if you had asked 299 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: me one month previously if I was capable of writing 300 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: the last twenty thousand words of a novel in four 301 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 2: and a half days, I would have laughed like, no, 302 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: that is never happening. But then I that's what I 303 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: had to do, So. 304 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you did it. All right. Well, we're going 305 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: to take one more quick ad break and we will 306 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: be back with Serena Bowen. Well, I am here with 307 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: Serena Bowen, who is a prolific novelist written several best 308 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: romance novels, the recent A five Year Lie, which is 309 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: a thriller that you can check out number one on 310 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: audible recently. So you read that one, right, Serena. 311 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed the transition to writing suspense from romance. 312 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: It was you know, it was a good time learning 313 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: how to do something new. 314 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: Well, was it very different? I mean, obviously you're still 315 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: constructing a plot and you're still coming up with good 316 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: ideas and executing on those ideas. So what made it different, Like, 317 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: what part of this involved shifting gears for you? 318 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 2: Well, in suspense, the promise that the writer is making 319 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 2: to the reader is just different. And you are promising 320 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: the reader that you will trick them a little bit, 321 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 2: like you have to give them some clues to go on, 322 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 2: but then they get they're allowed to figure out parts 323 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: of it, but not the whole thing. So you have 324 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: this swinging pendulum of doubt that if you haven't put 325 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: that into the book, then you have not written a thriller. 326 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: And that is a trick that I had to learn 327 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: from scratch when I started, and I as I as 328 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 2: I go forward, I realized that I didn't understand it 329 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: well enough when I embarked. I mean, you know, I'd 330 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: written an entire proposal in like a giant chuck of 331 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 2: the book to sell it. I still didn't quite understand 332 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: the job until I got neck deep in it, and 333 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: then I had to figure it out in a hurry. 334 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: So well, and one of the tricky things about that 335 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: I would imagine is you know what you know, right, 336 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: but you really have to put yourself in the reader's 337 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: head and like knowing what you know, but then making 338 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: sure that they don't know what you know? And how 339 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: are you ever sure, because of course you know? So 340 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm I'm very curious how one threads that needle there. Well. 341 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: Honestly, I have found and still believe, after having written 342 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: two thrillers at least by now, because the second one 343 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: comes out in May, is that your editor becomes more 344 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: important with suspense because ultimately you need somebody to tell 345 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: you how heavily or lightly you have shaded in any 346 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: particular thing. So that second read from a cold reader 347 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: becomes more important in suspense. And I'm not sure there's 348 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: any way around that. Although if you ask me ten 349 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: years from now, can I learn to do that for 350 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: my own books? I might say yes, because I have 351 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: evolved that capacity for romance at least, like I can 352 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 2: figure out what my reader's experience is, and maybe someday 353 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: I'll be able to do that in suspense too. I'm 354 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: not sure yes. 355 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: So I wonder if you could talk about a time 356 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: management challenge you have faced recently, and maybe how you 357 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: address that. 358 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: Well, I have had this desire. People talk about writing 359 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: as a job you can do from anywhere, and I 360 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: have not in my life, and I'm a good decade 361 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 2: into this job so far experienced that to be true. 362 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 2: So when I was a little baby, writer only a 363 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: couple of books in, I used to have to leave 364 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: my house to get good blocks of writing done because 365 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: I would look at the dishes in the sink and 366 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: I would do that first, and I was just unable 367 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 2: to sit down in chaos and write for some reason. 368 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: So I would go to a library and I would 369 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: feed the meter and I would have two hours and 370 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: they better count. And that is how I was productive. 371 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 2: But then I slowly transitioned into somebody who could work 372 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: at home, and I got really good at that. But 373 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: also the silence and the lack of stimulation around me 374 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: became like my new crutch. So I would like to 375 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 2: be somebody who can travel and you know, rite on 376 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: airplanes and write in hotel rooms and you know, have 377 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 2: a life where I get away from this place sometimes. 378 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: So that is what I'm trying to work on now. 379 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 2: And sometimes it's so easy to try technology as a 380 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: crutch for solving these problems, like I bought the fancy 381 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 2: Bo's headphones and then I forget to bring them with me, 382 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: and you know, so. 383 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: I wonder have you had any success of writing somewhere 384 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: other than your house? 385 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: Now I'm getting there. I mean it started with me 386 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: just really saying loudly like this is a thing I 387 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: need to figure out and I don't know if I 388 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 2: can do it, and then having friends like ask me, 389 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: you know, well, why is that like? And it turns 390 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: out it was less about cafe noise and more about 391 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: me struggling to switch between tasks. So if I am traveling, 392 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 2: then can't I can't move my brain into a working space. 393 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 2: I'll just be thinking about the next thing we're going 394 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: to do. And then, like I said, I had this 395 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: crazy crunch time deadline that I just survived, and I 396 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: had a business trip in the middle of it where 397 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: I went to Philadelphia for two days and then I 398 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: went to Toronto for one day, and then I came home, 399 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: and my deadline is just inching closer by the minute. 400 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: So I really had to figure out how to write 401 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: on the plane and how to not go down to 402 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: the hotel bar and see people that I knew but 403 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: rather to lock myself away in the hotel room and work. 404 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: And you know that the needing to do it is 405 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: what helped me understand that it was possible, and hopefully, 406 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: under easier circumstances, I will be able to do it again. 407 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe when you don't have to crank out twenty 408 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: thousand words in four days or whatever it was. Yeah, exactly. Well, so, Serena, 409 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: what is something you have done recently to take a 410 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: day from great too awesome? Well? 411 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: I have just begun taking ice skating lessons. Oh and 412 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: one of the cool things about writing fiction is that 413 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: suddenly everything in your life is research. When I was 414 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: a derivatives trader on Wall Street, this was not true. 415 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 2: It had the benefit of when you left the office, 416 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: you really left the office, like you were not required 417 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: to think of your job because at least at that 418 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: moment in time, there was no way. There was literally 419 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: no way to do your job if you're not there. 420 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: So but this is the opposite of that, which is 421 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: that you can do any fun new thing and make 422 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 2: it matter for work. So in this particular case, my 423 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 2: husband had begun taking these skating lessons because he wants 424 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: to play hockey and I have skated all my life, 425 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: but in circles like everybody else, you know. So I 426 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: realized that I had a character who was a skating 427 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: coach in an upcoming book, and I thought, I don't 428 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: know how skating coaches talk. I can watch a lot 429 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: of YouTube videos and probably figure it out. But here's 430 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: this class. It's twenty dollars an hour, and I own 431 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: the skates already. I'm just gonna go to the class. 432 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 2: So I did that, and it has been so much fun. 433 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: Like first of all, today I finally figured out how 434 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 2: to do figure eights on my outside edge, thank you 435 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 2: very much, And that, you know, has taken me a 436 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: good month to knock out. But just the the ape 437 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: feel of doing something badly, like it doesn't matter if 438 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: I become a good skater, it could not matter less. 439 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 2: But it's really good exercise. It makes me use my 440 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 2: mind in a brand new way. And I also use 441 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: my corporate credit card because it's research exactly. 442 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: It's all research, right, All of life is fodder. This 443 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: is wonderful. So Serena tell our listeners where they can 444 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: find you. 445 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: I am at Instagram and Threads as Serena dot Bowen 446 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: and my books are at all of the bookstores. 447 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: Awesome, well, Serena, thank you so much for joining us, 448 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone for listening to one of 449 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: these longer interview episodes. If you have feedback for me 450 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: on this or any other episode, you can reach me 451 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime, 452 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 453 00:26:52,320 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 454 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 455 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 456 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 457 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 458 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.