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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid egg.

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Speaker 3: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, fridagg bride Egg Egg

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Speaker 3: bridegg bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off

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Speaker 3: the golf course.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about the hidden reasons that golf is

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Speaker 1: so appealing. My guest is Bob Cullen, who tackled this

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Speaker 1: very question in a book called Why Golf. This is

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite golf books. It touches on evolutionary psychology, philosophy, design,

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Speaker 1: and many other subjects, and its basic purpose is to

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Speaker 1: explain why certain people not only play golf but become

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Speaker 1: absolutely obsessed with it. Bob's book Why Golf came out

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Speaker 1: in two thousand, so there was no particular occasion for

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Speaker 1: us to talk about it other than the fact that

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Speaker 1: we wanted to. So hope you enjoyed the conversation. But

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Speaker 1: before we get there, I want to tell you about

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Speaker 1: the Friday Eggs new membership. It's called Club TFE and

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Speaker 1: it offers exclusive content like weekly course reviews and members

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Speaker 1: only videos and virtual hangouts with Frida Egg's staff. You

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Speaker 1: also get early access to register for Frida Egg events

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Speaker 1: and an annual gift. We're launching it on January tewond

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Speaker 1: but you can sign up right now at the Friday

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Speaker 1: egg dot com slash membership. All Right, onto the episode.

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Speaker 1: All right, So, Bob, when we were talking about you

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Speaker 1: coming on the podcast a while back, you responded, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to come on. I'd love to talk about my

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Speaker 1: book Why Golf, But I do have one request, and

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Speaker 1: that is that we discuss the concept of the groundy.

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Speaker 1: And so I've been curious for months now. I have

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Speaker 1: resisted the temptation of asking you straight up, but what

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Speaker 1: is a groundie?

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Speaker 2: Well, the truth is that when you get to be

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Speaker 2: my agent golf, you can't look forward to sort of

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Speaker 2: Jack Nichol's style pars and birdies the way once in

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Speaker 2: a while you might have been able to in the past.

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Speaker 2: So and in my case, getting the ball in the

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Speaker 2: air sometimes is a little problematic. So a groundie is

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Speaker 2: a birdie that you make probably on a par three,

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Speaker 2: without the ball ever leaving the ground. And I've had

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Speaker 2: one of those. You scull the ball off the tee,

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Speaker 2: but it rolls and rolls and rolls, hits the green

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Speaker 2: and then you make the putton. It's second in my

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Speaker 2: esteem only to the Aqua Sandy, which I managed in

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Speaker 2: Florida last winter, which is when you scull the ball

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Speaker 2: off the tee through a water hazard and it skips

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Speaker 2: off the hazard and then lands in a bunker, and

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Speaker 2: you put the bunker shot on the green and make

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Speaker 2: the putt, and that is called the aqua Sandy. I can't, ever,

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Speaker 2: I can't expect anymore to have a good round in

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Speaker 2: the seventies, but I can occasionally pick up a groundie

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Speaker 2: or an aqua Sandy or something like that and take

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Speaker 2: some pleasure from those.

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Speaker 1: I have a friend who once told me when we

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Speaker 1: were playing, I'm not out here for a score, because

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Speaker 1: if I were, I would just be frustrated. I'm out

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Speaker 1: here to make birdies and interesting pars, and whatever happens

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Speaker 1: in between is just sort of whatever. I am not

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Speaker 1: going to bring myself to care about that. But I

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Speaker 1: think a groundee, I mean, it's a birdie technically, right,

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Speaker 1: but if you were to make a par in a

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Speaker 1: groundy manner, that would certainly qualify as an interesting par

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Speaker 1: as well. Yes, yes, all right, Well, many people might

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Speaker 1: recognize your name not only from the book Why Golf,

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Speaker 1: but also from the covers of some best sellers by

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Speaker 1: doctor Bob Rotella, the famous sports psychologist. You helped him

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Speaker 1: write books like Golf Is Not a Game of Perfect,

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Speaker 1: How Champions Think, etc. I think people listening to this

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Speaker 1: podcast will probably be familiar with this kind of series

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Speaker 1: of books that doctor Rotella and you have done in

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Speaker 1: the past twenty five thirty years or so. So maybe

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Speaker 1: we could start with you telling a story that you

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Speaker 1: actually tell in your book Why Golf, about how you

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Speaker 1: got linked up with doctor Rotella. How did that happen?

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Speaker 2: Well, it was one of the fortunate breaks of my life.

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Speaker 2: There was a guy named Bob Carney. There is a

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Speaker 2: guy named Bob Carney at Golf Digest, and he was

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Speaker 2: set up to work with Bob Rotella on the book

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Speaker 2: that became Golf Is Not a Game of Perfect, But

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Speaker 2: because he got a promotion at Golf Digest, he backed

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Speaker 2: away from the project and Rotella was left looking for

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Speaker 2: a collaborator. And we share a literary agent, Raf Sagallen,

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Speaker 2: and so Rotella said to Raith. I'm looking to write

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Speaker 2: a book about psychology for the average golfer, and I

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Speaker 2: need a collaborator. And Rafe said, well, I have a

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Speaker 2: client who's a very average golfer. And so I happened

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Speaker 2: to live in the Washington area and Bob Rotello lives

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Speaker 2: in Charlottesville, Virginia, and so I drove down there and

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Speaker 2: we chatted and decided it was worth trying to work together,

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Speaker 2: and that collaboration produced eight or nine books and put

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Speaker 2: my kids through college. It was one of the nicest

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Speaker 2: things that's ever happened to me.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the most important things that you

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Speaker 1: learned from doctor Rotella about the mental approach to golf.

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Speaker 2: I guess they could be encapsulated in one phrase, train

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Speaker 2: it and trust it. I think before I started to

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Speaker 2: work as a ghostwriter for Bob, I was one of

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Speaker 2: those players who was constantly thinking about the last tip

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Speaker 2: that I read about in a golf magazine and trying

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Speaker 2: to use it on the golf course. And his understanding

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Speaker 2: of the game includes the fact that your body really

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Speaker 2: works better when you allow your self conscious your subconscious

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Speaker 2: i'm sorry, your subconscious brain to control your movements, and

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Speaker 2: it does so much better than your conscious brain can do.

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Speaker 2: For example, if you think about if you're probably too

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Speaker 2: young for this, but if you ever learned to drive

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Speaker 2: a stick shift. When you first started to learn, you're

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Speaker 2: using your conscious brain trying to think about when to

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Speaker 2: put in the clutch, when to move the lever, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, and the car lurches and jerks and can

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Speaker 2: barely move. And after a while, though, you start to

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Speaker 2: learn it in your subconscious brain and you don't even

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Speaker 2: think about shifting the car anymore, and you drive very

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Speaker 2: smoothly from one point to the next. Well, the golf

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Speaker 2: swing is like shifting your car. You ingrain the correct

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Speaker 2: movements by training it, and then your best chance to

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Speaker 2: play well is by not thinking about it and letting

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Speaker 2: your subconscious brain control your swing. And the problem that

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Speaker 2: a lot of golfers have and that Rotella helps them with,

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Speaker 2: is that they get into a situation in a tournament

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Speaker 2: if you're a pro golfer or with a three dollars

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Speaker 2: Nassau on the line, if you're an amateur and you

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Speaker 2: really want to win, you really want to play well,

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Speaker 2: and so you turn on your conscious brain and you

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Speaker 2: screw it up. The best advice that Rotella ever gave anybody,

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Speaker 2: or me in particular, was, you know, just think about

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Speaker 2: where you want the ball to go and swing and

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Speaker 2: don't think about how to swing. And if you've done

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Speaker 2: your practicing a little. Even if you haven't practiced, you're

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Speaker 2: still going to produce a better swing relative to your

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Speaker 2: skill level if you just let it go. And that's

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Speaker 2: one of the skills that Rotella teaches, and it helped

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Speaker 2: my game tremendously, although I have to say I'm like

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Speaker 2: the preacher's kid. Rotelo also says, don't get upset about

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Speaker 2: a bad shot, just let it go and accept it.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not the kind of person that can do

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Speaker 2: that very easily. My friends tell me that they call

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Speaker 2: something the colin I have anguish and they count how

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Speaker 2: many ccas they hear during the course of a Saturday

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Speaker 2: round and then tease me about it at lunch. But

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Speaker 2: it's some parts of the Rotella teachings come easier to

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Speaker 2: me than others.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me bring up part of Rotella's philosophy, which

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Speaker 1: I don't question the validity of that has frustrated me

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Speaker 1: in the past, and that is this idea of turning

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Speaker 1: on and off the conscious mind, as you put it,

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Speaker 1: I find that I don't have much control over what

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Speaker 1: my mind does that as much as I would like

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Speaker 1: to be in the moment, kind of in that flow

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Speaker 1: state where you're not thinking about the specifics of what

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Speaker 1: you're doing, You're just looking at the target and making

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Speaker 1: it happen. You're trusting your training, you're not being self

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Speaker 1: conscious about it. I'd love to get to that state.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how to get there, because I don't

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Speaker 1: know that I I'm really in control of what my

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Speaker 1: brain does. And so I wonder, I mean, this would

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Speaker 1: obviously be a good question for doctor Rotella himself, but

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you, as somebody who kind of learned

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Speaker 1: as this stuff as well as rote about it, had ever,

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Speaker 1: you know, explored that notion that the brain is really

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Speaker 1: hard to control, and some people are better at it

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Speaker 1: than others. But I find myself, in particular, very poor

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Speaker 1: at that.

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Speaker 2: Well. I think one thing he would say is that

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Speaker 2: you have to practice it, and so with his players,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't want them working with a swing teacher the

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Speaker 2: day of the tournament or just before a tournament. He

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Speaker 2: wants their practice sessions just before a competition to be

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Speaker 2: in the trusting mode, and therefore he tells them, don't

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Speaker 2: think about your swing, just think about the target on yours,

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Speaker 2: and think about that more and more as try to

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Speaker 2: think that way more and more as the competition approaches.

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Speaker 2: If you need to make a swing change, or if

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Speaker 2: you need to work on your mechanics, then the time

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Speaker 2: to do that is well before competition. Work on the

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Speaker 2: mechanics in a kind of controlled way, and then as

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Speaker 2: your competition date approaches or your round approaches, more and

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Speaker 2: more you have to practice in the trusting mode. And

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Speaker 2: that's one thing that kind of helps, But obviously it

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Speaker 2: presupposes that you're doing a lot of practicing, which is

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Speaker 2: not something everybody gets a chance to do.

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Speaker 1: My wife tells me I need to meditate, and I

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Speaker 1: think she's probably right that that is a kind of

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Speaker 1: practice of exerting control over your own mind, of saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the mind is part of my body.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that kind of exists. A pardon does

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Speaker 1: what it wants. I am in control of it. But

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Speaker 1: that's so hard to do, incredibly difficult discipline.

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Speaker 2: It's not easy, and that's one reason why a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have read the books, and they're still not

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Speaker 2: winning the US Open. Although some of Rotel is Rotella.

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Speaker 2: There's something else I have to tell you about Rotella

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Speaker 2: that is not in any of the books, and that

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Speaker 2: is his personality. Players respond to him, and he has

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Speaker 2: a tremendous knack for figuring out what's going to work,

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Speaker 2: what kind of words, what kind of approach is going

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Speaker 2: to work with anybody that he trains or works with,

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Speaker 2: And that's one of his gifts. And it's not something

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Speaker 2: that's easy to reproduce in a book, because when you

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Speaker 2: read the book, it's his words. But it's not the

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Speaker 2: same as being next to him on the practice range.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I've heard people say the same thing about

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Speaker 1: the swing coach, butch Harmon, it's not so much about

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Speaker 1: the technique, though he has mastery of that. It's about

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Speaker 1: the way he communicates and the confidence that he instills

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Speaker 1: in the attitude that he encourages. And you know, that

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Speaker 1: can't really be written down. It's embodied in the personality

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Speaker 1: of the coach, and that is kind of the value

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Speaker 1: of the teaching there. But certainly, I mean the books

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Speaker 1: have have helped many golfers kind of conceptualize how they

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Speaker 1: might be able to improve their mental games. I mean,

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Speaker 1: at least it gives a path.

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Speaker 2: Well, and some of it is some of it is

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Speaker 2: just common sense. There's a chapter in Golf Is Not

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Speaker 2: a Game of Perfect that says, if you're not spending

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of your practice time on your short game,

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Speaker 2: you're not practicing to score better. And when I started

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Speaker 2: working with Doc, I didn't ever practice my short game,

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Speaker 2: and if I practiced at all, I would take a

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Speaker 2: driver out and whale the ball and try to hit

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Speaker 2: it further. And under his guidance, I started to practice

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Speaker 2: my short game, and sure enough, I dropped eight strokes

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Speaker 2: off my handicapped during the year we worked in the book,

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Speaker 2: and you know that trend didn't continue, but I got

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Speaker 2: better every year we worked together because he was constantly

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Speaker 2: reminding me to practice my chipping and putting.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, let's talk a little bit about your

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Speaker 1: own book, Why Golf, which came out in the year

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Speaker 1: two thousand and I love this book, you know, It's

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Speaker 1: one that I've been a fan of for years and

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Speaker 1: read multiple times and often think about, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the course of doing my job. And the central question

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Speaker 1: of it is embodied in the title, Why is it

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Speaker 1: that golf is so appealing? Why golf specifically, why is

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Speaker 1: it that this is the game that we become we

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Speaker 1: golfers become obsessed with. Some of the explanations that you

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Speaker 1: give toward the beginning of the book have a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with what I think of as evolutionary psychology,

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Speaker 1: right where part of the explanation for why we like

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Speaker 1: what we like and why we do what we do

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Speaker 1: is deep in our genetic coding, right these things that

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Speaker 1: are still there inside us, because humans existed for a

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Speaker 1: long long time before we all moved into cities and got,

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Speaker 1: you know, bureaucratic jobs and did all the modern things

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Speaker 1: that we do now. Humans existed for many many more

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Speaker 1: centuries before that and developed kind of modes of being

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Speaker 1: and desires that had a lot to do with hunter

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Speaker 1: gatherer society and what life was like in that kind

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Speaker 1: of environment and that kind of social structure. And evolutionary

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Speaker 1: psychology gets at some of those tendencies and humans that

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Speaker 1: were developed way way back and tries to explain some

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Speaker 1: of our behavior in the present day by referring back

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Speaker 1: to those early instances of genetic coding and motivation and humans.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I've explained that very well. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of what evolutionary psychology does. But you drew on

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Speaker 1: this a lot in explaining why golf was so appealing,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you could take me through that a little bit.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you found.

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Speaker 2: Well, one of the first things in why golf is

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Speaker 2: so appealing is the place where you play. I know

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Speaker 2: that since I've been a small child, I've always thought

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Speaker 2: golf courses were great places to be. Just the look

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Speaker 2: of the golf course appeals to me. Even if it's

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Speaker 2: a scruffy municipal golf course like Rock Creek Park in Washington,

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Speaker 2: it still seems to strike a chord within me, and

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Speaker 2: I think within most golfers. And I had some conversations

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Speaker 2: with a friend named Bob Wright, who's a writer of

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Speaker 2: some very serious and important books who loves to play golf,

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Speaker 2: and he introduced me to a book called the biophilia

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Speaker 2: Hypothesis I believe, which suggests that there are deep within

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Speaker 2: our hunter gatherer reptilian brains associations with places of prospect

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Speaker 2: versus places of refuge. Places of prospect are like the

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Speaker 2: fairways and the greens on a golf course, and places

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Speaker 2: of refuge are like the woods and that water hazards

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Speaker 2: and the desire to be in a place of prospect

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Speaker 2: is something that's existed within human beings for thousands and

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Speaker 2: thousands of years, and there are some fundamental instinctive pleasures

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Speaker 2: or desires. There's a chapter in Why Golf called the

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Speaker 2: Blind Baby Smile or Why the Blame Blind Baby Smiled,

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Speaker 2: And one of the psychologists that I cited was in

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Speaker 2: trusted in why it was that a blind baby who

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Speaker 2: could never see a smile could learn to smile. And

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Speaker 2: it turns out that if the baby can be set

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Speaker 2: up in a situation whereby kicking at things or striking things,

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Speaker 2: it can move something in the environment, it smiles. The

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Speaker 2: baby smiles even if it's never seen a smile. And

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Speaker 2: that's an indication that the basic act of playing golf,

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Speaker 2: the movement of the ball by striking it with a club,

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Speaker 2: strike some cord within us that probably had to do

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Speaker 2: with the genetic advantage of being able to manipulate your environment.

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Speaker 2: So and that's probably also the case with so many

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Speaker 2: other sports. I mean, golf is not the only sport

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Speaker 2: that you move a ball around in a playing area.

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Speaker 2: Almost all sports have that involved with them, so but

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why. Whether it be hitting

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Speaker 2: a drive down the middle of the fairway or sinking

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Speaker 2: a three point shot, or you know, hitting a hitting

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Speaker 2: a baseball really solidly and seeing it go into the outfield,

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Speaker 2: those are instinctively satisfying feelings for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: And it's it's wired into our wired into us. Whether

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Speaker 2: it's in the genes or in some other fashion. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I'm not a scientist, so it's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to make a definitive statement, but it's clear that

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Speaker 2: there are some elements of golf, both in terms of

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Speaker 2: the setting and in terms of the movement of the

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Speaker 2: ball that are ringing a bell deep within our being.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to go back to golf courses as

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Speaker 1: places for a second before moving on to you know,

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Speaker 1: the appeal of playing the game itself, hitting the ball,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. There are lots of interesting things in both

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Speaker 1: of those pursuits, and there are evolutionary explanations, I suppose

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Speaker 1: for both kinds of appeal in golf, but prospect and refuge. So,

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Speaker 1: prospect environments are places where you can see a lot

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Speaker 1: basically right, where you can can see over an expanse

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Speaker 1: of land. You know, think of the savannah that it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a prospect environment, whereas refuge environments are more

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Speaker 1: like a jungle or a forest where you can be

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Speaker 1: sort of hidden away. And you know, both of those

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Speaker 1: environments can be appealing to humans for different reasons, right, So,

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Speaker 1: what are the reasons that a refuge environment might be

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Speaker 1: appealing and what are the reasons that a prospect environment

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Speaker 1: might be appealing the sort.

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Speaker 2: Of hunter gatherer paradigm. The hunters would be the ones

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Speaker 2: that would go out into the places of prospect so

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Speaker 2: they could hunt game or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And you wouldn't want to hunt game in a forest, right,

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Speaker 1: that's not the ideal place to be hunting, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you can't see very far. You don't really have an

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Speaker 1: advantage there.

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Speaker 2: Right, Whereas the gatherers would tend to be people who

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Speaker 2: wanted to be protected from or wanted to protect themselves

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Speaker 2: from wild animals, and they would spend their time in

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Speaker 2: a forest or some kind of environment where they had

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Speaker 2: some natural shelter or natural protection against predators, and where

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Speaker 2: they could find food sources that were available on the

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Speaker 2: forest floor, hanging from the branches or something like that.

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Speaker 2: So you're the obvious over simplistic explanation is that golfers

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Speaker 2: are descended from hunters and gatherers, and non golfers are

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Speaker 2: descended from gatherers, and that the reason the golf course

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Speaker 2: is so appealing to some people but not all, is

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Speaker 2: that some people have more of that hunter gene and

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Speaker 2: some people have more of that gatherer gene.

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Speaker 1: Now, I would say that a lot of golf courses

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Speaker 1: are there's many varieties of golf courses, right. Some golf

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Speaker 1: courses have a lot more prospect environments than others. But

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Speaker 1: the golf course that are at least most appealing to

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Speaker 1: me are ones where there are both kind of prospect

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Speaker 1: and refuge environments where there's an alternation between places where

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Speaker 1: you can see an expanse and places where you're more enclosed,

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Speaker 1: and the golf course kind of moves in and out

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Speaker 1: between those, and so it's a kind of combination or

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Speaker 1: the best of both worlds, you could even say, where

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Speaker 1: you get these moments where you feel kind of tucked

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Speaker 1: away and protected or hidden, and you get moments where

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Speaker 1: you're more behaving in a hunter manner and looking over

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Speaker 1: a broad environment and seeing what's next. Those are the

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Speaker 1: kind of more expansive moments of the golf round and

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Speaker 1: then the kind of release moments. And then when you're

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Speaker 1: in those, you know, kind of more sheltered environments, you

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Speaker 1: get a different feeling. And so I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of golf courses sort of deliver both.

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Speaker 2: Maybe right. I think that for example, when I look

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Speaker 2: at Oakmont today or Congressional, where the USDA has persuaded

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Speaker 2: those clubs to remove thousands and thousands of trees, they're

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Speaker 2: not as appealing to me as they were when I

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Speaker 2: first saw them, and they had a lot more trees

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Speaker 2: and tree lined fairways. So yeah, the association with the

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Speaker 2: places of refuge is probably one of the things that

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Speaker 2: makes the most appealing golf courses as appealing as they are.

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Speaker 2: Although obviously you don't want to spend a lot of

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Speaker 2: time in your place of refuge if you're playing around

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Speaker 2: the golf.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, you don't want to be in the

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Speaker 1: swamp right.

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Speaker 2: Right, or in the trees or where where some of

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Speaker 2: us spend way too much time instead of out on

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Speaker 2: that nice sun drenched fairway.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know. Regarding tree removal, I would say that

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Speaker 1: a lot of golf courses maybe went too far in

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Speaker 1: the direction of making the entire golf course refuge right

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Speaker 1: where you're surrounded by trees the entire time. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the most successful tree removal projects have often

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Speaker 1: been ones where enough trees were removed so that places

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Speaker 1: of prospect were opened up, and there were moments when

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Speaker 1: you can kind of see across the golf course and

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Speaker 1: get that feeling, you know, that good feeling of being

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Speaker 1: in command of your environment. But then there are also

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Speaker 1: moments where there are some trees, there are enough trees

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Speaker 1: left so that you can get the other feeling or

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Speaker 1: the other side of it, and so on many golf courses.

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Speaker 1: I like that tree removal has created the opportunity for

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Speaker 1: both of those to be experienced. Now, you may say, Okay, Oakmont,

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Speaker 1: pretty much all of the trees are gone on most

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Speaker 1: parts of the golf course, and there's a particular argument

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Speaker 1: for that. But I guess I'm glad that certain golf

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Speaker 1: courses have moved back to a place where there are

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Speaker 1: more kind of kind of prospects on the scene. I suppose. Now,

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Speaker 1: another element of this that was interesting in your book

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Speaker 1: is the idea of clipped grasslands right where you know,

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Speaker 1: part of the reason that golf courses are appealing is

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Speaker 1: that the grasses is kind of short, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: what about that, what's the what's what's the feeling that

435
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: we get from that.

436
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: I think that that to a hunter in prehistoric times,

437
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: the the site of clip grass suggested there was prey

438
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: ahead and that was very pleasant to see and resonated

439
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: nicely with them, so that it meant that the kind

440
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 2: of animals that graze and like sheep or who were

441
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: in the first golf courses or in other places other

442
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 2: kinds of grazing animals were near hand and there for

443
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: the hunting was going to be good. That's my feeling

444
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: about it. But it's obviously not something you could ever

445
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 2: probably prove.

446
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: Right. Well, that's the thing about some of these ideas

447
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: of evolutionary psychology is that it is kind of hard

448
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: to prove. There's really no way to prove aside from,

449
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, making a convincing argument about it. But yeah,

450
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: I find this idea that golf courses kind of replicate

451
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: a landscape that humans are coded to react well to.

452
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: You know, wherever you want to take that argument, whatever

453
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: specifics of golf courses you want to point out, that

454
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: does seem right to me that golf courses just give

455
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: you this feeling of, ah, this is a good place

456
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: to be. And do you still have that feeling today

457
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: when you walk on a golf course.

458
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: Yes, although I have to say that compared to twenty

459
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: odd years ago, if I were writing the book today,

460
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: I would give more emphasis to the fact that one

461
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: of the appealing things about golf is that it's a

462
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: game where you can measure your improvement. You know, when

463
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: I wrote this book, I was working my handicap down

464
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: from twenty one where it was when I started working

465
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: with Barbrook Dell to five, which is as low as

466
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: I ever got. And now that my handicap is going

467
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: in the opposite direction because of a variety of things,

468
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: mostly age. I really find that I miss the notion

469
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: of improvement and the striving to get that handicap a

470
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: stroke lower and regularly work on your game. As David

471
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: Oakley observed, you can't when you get to the point

472
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: in life where you have all the time you need

473
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: to work on your game. Your body won't let you

474
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: there are and your body won't let you hit the

475
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: ball that far anymore. I remember once about I don't

476
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: know twenty years ago, being at a clinic with Jack Nicholas,

477
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: and he was demonstrating how he hits the ball. He says, well,

478
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: that's the way I do it, but well didn't go

479
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: anywhere anymore. Of course, he was only hitting it two sixty. Wow.

480
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 2: I'd love to be able to make the ball not

481
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: go anywhere the way Jack does. But you know, age

482
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: robs us all of the ability to hit the ball

483
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: as far as we once could, hit it as high

484
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: as we once could, and so forth. And it's tough

485
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: to want to practice enough on the things that you

486
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: can still do as you get older, Like you're chipping

487
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: and you're pitching, and you're putting to compensate for the

488
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: loss of distance and clubhead speed. So anyway, so if

489
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: you don't and I don't, I'm afraid want to spend

490
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: a lot of time practicing your short game to compensate

491
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: for your reduced clubhead speed and so on, you find

492
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 2: your handicap going in the wrong direction, and that takes

493
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: a lot of pleasure away from the game. I have

494
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: to say, in retrospect, I would have said, you know

495
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: that the notion of improving, of reaching a goal and

496
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: then climbing to another goal is one of the most

497
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: appealing aspects of golf. It's not I don't think a

498
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: coincidence that golf, probably of all sports that I can imagine,

499
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: has the best handicap system and the most scientific way

500
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: of determining you know exactly where your game is in

501
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: terms of your scoring and that handicap number. You know,

502
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: I just got my handicap the other day from the

503
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: Maryland State Golf Association, So every two weeks I get

504
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: an update, and it's it can be both a great

505
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 2: thing or a saddening thing. If you see it going down,

506
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: that really is encouraging, and if you see it going up,

507
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: that kind of takes a little of the spice out

508
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: of the game.

509
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: I'm afraid, well, let me defend your book here for

510
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: a moment, because I do think that you bring this

511
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: idea through in the book. You know, we've mainly been

512
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: talking about your ideas about the appeal of golf courses

513
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: as environments or as habitats. But there's a big set

514
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: of ideas in this book about why the act of

515
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: playing golf is satisfying. And one of those ideas is

516
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: that it offers a realm for improvement, which is what

517
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about right now. And you know, here's here.

518
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: There are a number of great passages to refer to here.

519
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: One quote that jumped out to me this time reading

520
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: your book is that golf is a great sport for

521
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: the striver, right, And if I could just read a

522
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: quick passage to maybe get your your thoughts going about this,

523
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: you say that that people are happiest when they are

524
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: working toward a goal. In our distant ancestors, this trait

525
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: helped assure survival in our time, serve Bible is rarely

526
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: an issue, and this is at least for people who

527
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to play golf. Yet the striving trait

528
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: lives on within us seeking an outlet. This is why

529
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: people try to circumnavigate the globe in hot air balloons.

530
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: This is why we have tourists trekking to the top

531
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: of Mount Everest. It is why each autumn the marathons

532
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: in New York and Washington are oversubscribed. People want to strive.

533
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: Striving makes them happy. Therefore golf makes them happy. And

534
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: in fact, this is also one big reason why this

535
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: was your story as well, why people may let golf

536
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: go in their twenties and pick it back up in

537
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: their thirties or forties. Because in our twenties, a lot

538
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: of us are striving in many realms of our professional

539
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: and personal lives. Many of us are building our careers,

540
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: looking for promotions. In our twenties, we're looking often many

541
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: of us are looking for a mate. In our twenties,

542
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: we're looking to start families. And those are both arenas

543
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: in which people really have to strive in order to succeed.

544
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: But by the time many people are in their thirties, forties, fifties,

545
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: they've kind of settled into a life, right, They've maybe

546
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: settled into a family life, They've maybe settled into a

547
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: professional life, and the striving is not as much part

548
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: of what they're doing. And so that's why people sometimes

549
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: take up golf because it offers a place to strive.

550
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: And so you still think that's true, But for you,

551
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 1: that part of the game has become less, right.

552
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I guess I'm afflicted. Bob Rotello would tell me,

553
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 2: I'm defeating myself. I'm afflicted with the sense that even

554
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: if I started again devoting a lot of time to practice,

555
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: I would not be able to do any better and

556
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: probably not do as well as I could twenty years ago.

557
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 2: So I as a result, I really rely on golf

558
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: to give me a companionship and exercise. You know, my

559
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 2: buddies that I play with are very important in my life,

560
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: and the exercise I get playing golf is important to me.

561
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: And just the sheer pleasure of hitting the ball well

562
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 2: occasional or even making a groundie or an aqua sandy

563
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: is important to me. But I can't invest myself as

564
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: much as I did in seeing you know, can I

565
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: get to be a single digit? Can I get to

566
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: be less enough six? And you know, one of the

567
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 2: things you find out, unfortunately, is that it takes twice

568
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: as much work to get from six to five as

569
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: it did to get from twenty to ten. And you know,

570
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: the practicing that I had to do, I did it

571
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: in part because when I was writing about golf, I

572
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: felt like it was an occupational necessity.

573
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 6: You know.

574
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: Bob Rotella, in fact, and I both got a little invested.

575
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: In the back flap of the books that we did

576
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: there'd be a little paragraph about me. And it started

577
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: out in the first book saying, in his time working

578
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: with Bob Rotella, Bob Collen's handicap has gone from twenty

579
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: one to thirteen. And you know, the next book it

580
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 2: was twenty one to eleven. And you know when I

581
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: became a single digit with about the third or fourth

582
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: book that Rotella liked that and I liked it. But

583
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 2: I got down to five and I realized that, you know,

584
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: to get anywhere from below five, I would have to

585
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: start spending hours a day at the golf course trying

586
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: to improve marginally on my putting or marginally. And I

587
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: don't like practicing putting. I'll be perfec be honest with you.

588
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: In one of the Rotel books we had that we

589
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: wrote about putting, I had some great putting drills from

590
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: Dottie Pepper. I interviewed her and she gave me a

591
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: few drills that we incorporated into that book. And those

592
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: drills are great. You have to, for example, draw a

593
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 2: straight line on the putting green, I find a straight putt,

594
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: in other words, and then put three balls down a

595
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: three feet, hit them in three in a row, and

596
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: then move it back to five feet, hit them in

597
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: three in a row, move it back to seven feet,

598
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 2: hit them in three in a row. And if you

599
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: can do that, your practice is done. It adds pressure

600
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: to your practice, it grooves your stroke. It's a tremendous drill,

601
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: but it's boy, it's tough on your back.

602
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 6: And so if somebody invites me to play in a

603
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 6: member guest and I don't want to embarrass myself, I

604
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 6: will practice putting for a week or so and it

605
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 6: works every time.

606
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: The drill improves my game by several strokes. But it's

607
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 2: just not fun. And as I get older, I find

608
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: I'm really only in it for the fun anymore. And

609
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 2: so you know, give me a nice group of guys,

610
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,439
Speaker 2: a nice day, and a three dollars Nassau and that's

611
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: about as happy as I'm going to get from golf anymore.

612
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get there. I'm not going to

613
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 2: get happy because I'm striving to lower my handicap from

614
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: seven to six. Well, that was great, And it's true

615
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: that in any endeavor, people are who understand their own

616
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: psychology will tell you that the journey is a much

617
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: greater source of joy than the destination. And you know,

618
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: so feeling like you're working and making progress is a

619
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: great part of golf, but it's part of golf I've given.

620
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: Up, and so then the pleasure that you get out

621
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: of golf now is primarily social.

622
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: One of my proudest achievements is I taught my wife

623
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: to play golf. I didn't teach her. She had learned

624
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: a little bit as a kid, but she started picked

625
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: it up again when she was in her fifties, and

626
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 2: now she wants to go on golf vacations all the time.

627
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: You know, when we go away this winter, we're going

628
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: to a place where there's a golf course, and she's

629
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: going to want to play every day if possible. And so,

630
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 2: you know, as golf is giving us something we both

631
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: enjoy doing together in our golden years, and it's true

632
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: that being with friends, you know, the golf trips you

633
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: take with your buddies, those things, the camaraderie, the weather,

634
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 2: that all those things are extremely important and golf is

635
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: a way of giving them to yourself.

636
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: Are there moments now, even as you feel your skills

637
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: on the course are declining and that the opportunity for

638
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: improvement is more part of your past than it is

639
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: part of your future, are there moments when this kind

640
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: of balance between difficulty and achievability that golf has still

641
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: appeals to you. And what I mean by this is that, yes,

642
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: golf is an extremely difficult game, but it's also possible

643
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: to play it extremely well for anyone. You know, it

644
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if we're not wonderful athletes. We can all

645
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: hit great shots, and so that is the achievable. That's

646
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: the allure of playing golf in part that you know,

647
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: great golf is within our grasp right and occasionally we

648
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: can play it, but it's extremely difficult to do that consistently,

649
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: and so we kind of have to wait for those

650
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: moments or work toward those moments. So you know, even

651
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: as you say that, you know the act of playing

652
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: golf and trying to get better at it has become

653
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: less important to you. Do you still feel like golf

654
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: draws you because you feel like, you know, sometimes I

655
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: can achieve a state of grace.

656
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: Once in a while in any round of golf. I

657
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: think that's correct. I think you know. I'm not sure

658
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 2: I agree with you that anybody can play great golf.

659
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a story from a clinic that I

660
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: went to with Jack Nicholas. Another story, And as part

661
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: of this clinic, people were getting golf clubs, and the

662
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: golf club sets included hybrids, and Jack said, how do

663
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: you like those hybrids? And find Jack you know, and

664
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: he said, well, I don't use them. You can't work

665
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: the ball with that.

666
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: You can only hit it high and straight, and yeah,

667
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: that's so bad.

668
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 3: And in Jack's world that was true, because Jack's golf

669
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 3: game operates within such fine tolerances that he can't work

670
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: the ball with a hybrid club. He wants to be

671
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: able to fade it and draw it, and he gets

672
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 3: he can do that with the old standard irons, he

673
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: can't do it with hybrids. And after that clinic, every

674
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: time I hit.

675
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: A big hook or a terrible slice with a hybrid club,

676
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: I'd say, no, Jack, you're wrong. You can work the

677
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: ball with a hybrid club because you know, the average

678
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: player doesn't swing the way Jack swings. Jack swing is

679
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: a different animal altogether. And so anyway, I think the

680
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 2: average person is capable of some good shots and once

681
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: in a while doing them, and if you practice more,

682
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: you get more consistent with it. But nowadays, you know

683
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: the for me, a long drive is one that catches

684
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: the other side of a hill and rolls out to

685
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: two hundred yards. I'm never going to hit the ball

686
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: to seventy again, not that I ever did very often anyway,

687
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: But and so what really I think highlight my golf

688
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: rounds are the recovery shots. You know, when you when

689
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: you when you hit the ball in a bunker, but

690
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: then you knock the bunker shot to two feet and

691
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 2: make the put. That that's one of the highlights. Or

692
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: you know, the the occasional shot where the ball comes

693
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: right off the club the way you want it to.

694
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: And if it's if it's a well designed course, you

695
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: know you've got some shots there where they look harder

696
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: than they are. And so you you hit the ball

697
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: over a bunker and onto the green and stop it

698
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: and I don't stop it very sharply anymore, but I

699
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: can still keep it from rolling out through the green

700
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 2: and if I hit it well. And those kinds of

701
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: shots that look harder than they are are the kinds

702
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: of shots that good golf course architects build into their

703
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: courses and which can give me that same feeling of yeah,

704
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: I can do this. But to be honest, it's mostly

705
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: the occasional recovery shots. You know, if I have a

706
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: good day in the bunkers, I'm having a good day.

707
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,320
Speaker 1: Right Yeah. Well, when I say that anybody is capable

708
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: of great golf, I don't mean that anybody is capable

709
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: of putting together eighteen holes of great golf, right right, Obviously,

710
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 1: that's that's not true. I mean, you know, maybe maybe

711
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: most people would be able to get there with a

712
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: lot of practice, but most of us don't practice enough

713
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: or work hard enough on our games to or have

714
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: enough time to develop those kinds of skills.

715
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: But you put your finger on one of the lures

716
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: of the game, and that is that anybody who can

717
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 2: break a hundred can remember hitting a great drive down

718
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: the middle, or hitting a seven iron crisp to a pin,

719
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: and then the lure is, well, if I could do

720
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 2: it once, I sure certainly should be able to do

721
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 2: it more often. Whereas if you are a pole vaulter,

722
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: you know you're never gonna get very far off the

723
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 2: ground with a pole in your hands, or if you're

724
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: a boxer, you're never going to last more than five

725
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: seconds with a professional heavyweight. And so golf has that

726
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: element that you mentioned that is very alluring, the notion

727
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 2: that I've done it once. There's no reason except for

728
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: for consistency, that I can't do it all the time.

729
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: And of course consistency is the mystery of the game,

730
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: one of the mysteries of the game. But anyway, yes, yeah.

731
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: You're correct, it's within reach. Yeah, exactly. The achievability factor

732
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: that is kind of what golf offers is that is

733
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: that little mirage I guess most of the time of achievability,

734
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: and to the extent that you find that appealing, that's

735
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: the extent to which you remain obsessed with the game.

736
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: Do you think that's accurate.

737
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that's what keeps you

738
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 2: practicing if you are a practicer, and that's what kept

739
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: me practicing because I knew that if I worked on it,

740
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: I would develop more consistency. I remember when my kids

741
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 2: were young, we'd go down to the beach in South Carolina,

742
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: and there are a lot of good practice ranges down

743
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: there in the Myrtle Beach area. I don't know whether

744
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: you've ever been there. Yes, well, I would go to

745
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: a probe before our vacation and I would ask for

746
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 2: some drills, and he would give me drills to improve

747
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: my contact with the ball or something of that nature.

748
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: And when we got to South Carolina, because the kids

749
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 2: were small, I couldn't take an hour. I couldn't take

750
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: six hours to play around a golf but I could

751
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: take an hour and a half and go to a

752
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: range somewhere and work on those drills. And when I

753
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: came back from those vacations, I was always a stroker

754
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 2: to better than I had been because the drills made

755
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 2: me more consistent. And if I wanted to get better

756
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 2: at golf, now, that's what I would start doing. I

757
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 2: would get a pro and I would get some drills,

758
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 2: and I would improve what I have, even though what

759
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: I have now is not going to be what I

760
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: had twenty five years ago. And so yeah, I think

761
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: that's one of the great allures of the game for

762
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: people who are like you or me, the striver that

763
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 2: you want to improve. You can see the possibility or

764
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: the potential of playing well, and you're willing to work

765
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: on drills or other kinds of practice that will slowly

766
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 2: make your game more system You know, I would spend

767
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: an hour on those South Carolina practice ranges, swinging on

768
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: one leg because my pro told me that, you know,

769
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: you've got to work on something, and it worked. You know,

770
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: when I came home, I was I was shooting a

771
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 2: couple or three strokes better than I had been when

772
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: I left on that vacation. And people said, you must

773
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: have played a lot of golf, and I said, no,

774
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: I just did a lot of practice.

775
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: Right. You finished this book with a really lovely chapter

776
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: I think about Twilight Golf. Yeah, and I wonder if

777
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: you still love Twilight golf.

778
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 2: I don't do it as often as I used to,

779
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: but I still do it occasionally. And you know, I'll

780
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 2: have to tell you that that that Twilight Golf chapter

781
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: featured by two children who are now close to middle age,

782
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: and they don't play golf anymore. I don't know why

783
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: I could couldn't instill it in them. In any case,

784
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 2: Twilight golf was something that I did when they were young,

785
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: and we had dinner at six o'clock because that's when

786
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 2: they wanted to have dinner, and I didn't have the

787
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: cocktail before dinner, and then it would be six thirty

788
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: and there would be two perfectly good hours, and I'd say,

789
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 2: let's go out and play golf, or I would go

790
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: out and play golf. And when you're a working person,

791
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: which I was, then those are your hours to play.

792
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: You got to use those twilight hours, especially if you

793
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 2: can get your kids to go out and take the

794
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: kids off out of the house for a couple of hours.

795
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 2: So I really like that, and I still do it occasionally,

796
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: but not as much as I did when the kids

797
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 2: were small.

798
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: What I really like about this portrayal of twilight golf

799
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: is you know this idea that you're on this kind

800
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 1: of abandoned golf course for the most part, and you

801
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: have a line in here where you say, even though

802
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: the day is kind of coming to an end and

803
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: you're kind of aware of advancing time, it seems like

804
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 1: you have more time when you're playing twilight golf than

805
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: at any other time. Of the day, and you know,

806
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 1: that just strikes me as something that's that can be

807
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: really pleasurable, and I wish we're kind of more common.

808
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: In golf. People are often sort of rushing through a

809
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: golf round, making sure they're not holding anybody up, and

810
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: they're keeping score, and there's a set of rules about

811
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 1: how you go about it. And twilight golf, those rules

812
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: kind of seem to be suspended and you're able to

813
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: play a little more. It's a time to bring kids

814
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 1: out on the course, you know.

815
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: Because you're not trying to finish around. And you know,

816
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 2: I have to say I am a stickler for a

817
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 2: pace of playing golf. Yes, we were at Pine Needles

818
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago. There was a group of

819
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: guys that were playing a tournament among themselves and they

820
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 2: were putting everything out and winding everything up.

821
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: Three times, grinding over two footers, crazy.

822
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: Playing behind them. It took us five hours to play,

823
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 2: and I was very unhappy about that because I like

824
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: to play in four hours. But twilight golf, maybe I

825
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: put too much pressure on myself to move along and

826
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: and to never hold anybody up and so forth. Twilight

827
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: golf maybe was special in fact now that you talk

828
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 2: about it, because I didn't have that kind of desire

829
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: to move, move the game along and not hold anybody

830
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: up and get done with my round in a four

831
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: hour at a four hour pace. And so yeah, maybe

832
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 2: the maybe one of the one of the real attraction.

833
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: It's one of the great things about twilight golf is

834
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: that you know, if you don't play six holes, you

835
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: play five, nobody cares, and it takes a time pressure

836
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 2: element away from the game. And the time pressure element

837
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: is necessary in golf the way it is in this

838
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 2: country today. You can't have somebody playing five hours on

839
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 2: a course that has other people on it, because it's

840
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: not fair to them. But there's something nice about being

841
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: liberated from the time constraints which you are to some

842
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 2: which you are basically one hundred percent liberated in twilight

843
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 2: golf if you're playing it at a course that you

844
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: belong to and that you know you can switch from

845
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: one hole to the next, skip a few holes and

846
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: or hit an extra shot, or all those other things

847
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 2: that are part of the pleasure of the game that

848
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: you can't have on a Saturday morning when everybody's trying

849
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 2: to get around the golf course. Before lunch.

850
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 1: Well, Bob, thank you so much for talking with me today.

851
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: The book is called Why Golf. I recommend that people

852
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: revisited it if you read it years ago, it's a

853
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: good one to pick up again. But thanks again for

854
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: coming on the podcast, Garrett.

855
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure and on behalf of golf Riders Everywhere.

856
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: Thanks for doing what you're doing.

857
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: This episode of the Frida Egg podcast was edited by

858
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: Meg Atkins. If you'd like to support the Frida Egg,

859
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: the single best way to do that is to join

860
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: Club TFE. Go to the Friday Egg dot com slash

861
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: membership to learn more and to sign up. Thanks for

862
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: listening and we'll be back soon.

863
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 3: Y