WEBVTT - Opel CEO Lohscheller on the Transition to Electric Vehicles 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:02.720 I'm Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch It on 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.640 the B E F podcast. On the seventeenth of May, 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.360 BENF hosted our Munich Summit, one of six summits taking 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.320 place around the world each year, each with a different theme. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:17.079 This summit focuses on where automotive manufacturing and energy converge. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.200 So naturally, we were delighted when Michael Loscheler, CEO of 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.960 Opal Automotive, agreed to join us to discuss automotive strategy 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.920 in the transition to electric vehicles. Michael has experienced working 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:33.519 for numerous companies in the automotive industry, including Volkswagen, Daimler, 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:37.120 and Mitsubishi Motors. During our summit, he was interviewed by 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.760 Nicolas Solopolos, advanced transport analyst. Here at B and e F. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.640 For more information about our summits, also taking place in London, 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.760 New Delhi, New York, San Francisco, and Shanghai, go to 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.800 about dot bien ef dot com forward Slash Summit. As 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.520 a quick reminder, bien ef does not provide investment or 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.160 strategy advice and are more complete disclaimer is at the 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.960 end of the show. But now let's hear the interview 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.760 with Michael Lohler, CEO of Local Automotive, about the future 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:16.479 of electric vehicles. So hello, Michael, thank you very much 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:18.640 for being here with us to day. It's it's great, 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.360 great pleasure to have you on the summit. So it's 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.600 also a very interesting time for the automotive industry, particularly 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.840 in Europe. Among many other things, we have the next 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.200 zero targets that are in place now for a course, 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.240 the European Union, the UK as well has some of those. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:36.360 And one of the questions that are gaining more momentum 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.720 now the industry is that of legislating and end to 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.800 the sale of vehicles that are using in telecombustion engines. 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.080 What is your view and that I mean, first of all, 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.680 we try to be very customer focused because at the 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.520 end of the day, we offer mobility to our customers. 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.040 We want to give them excitement with with our cars 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.160 and offer clean and safe mobility and I think we 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.680 shouldn't forget this. This is really the key of our business. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.480 At the same time, the political framework is changing. Yeah, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.840 so what we from the open side try to do 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.440 is we want to be open for various technologies. Yeah, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.120 what's very obvious now is that electrification is gaining momentum. 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.200 It's gaining momentum. We saw that last year. Our sales 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.080 of electric fire cars is increasing. We see that also 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:25.600 this year. And basically we prepare now the future for 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:30.000 this growing demand of electrification. But basically we also want 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.399 to be open for other technologies. Yeah, because CEO two 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.520 reduction is not only with electric cars. Are like last 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.880 year on the open side, we reduced our CEO two 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.720 emissions by twenty three Graham, which is quite significant, and 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.840 of course also gas and diesel engine contributed to this 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.520 great performance. But long story short, we want to be 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.440 open for all technologies. But we see clearly electrification is 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.160 picking up now. So you have a portfolio at the 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.200 moment that we talked about that has I see is 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.920 it has plug and fire bridges, has body electrics, and 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.919 soon enough you'll have even fuel cell cars, fuel self 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.240 vance vance in fact, and you just described that you 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.760 want to be ready for all the market eventualities. There 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.120 is that a longer term option as well. So looking 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.440 five or even ten years ahead, do you think that 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:22.519 you'll maintain this broad technology portfolio. So at the moment, 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.160 we have two architectures and we call them multi energy 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.040 and they are basically for one car. Let's take an 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:33.000 open coursa you can produce on one assembly line, I 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:37.000 guess diesel and electric car, and this works very well. 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.720 We are very flexible, we are very edgile, and whatever 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.040 happens in the market, we feel we are very well 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.440 prepared for this. So I think this is a very 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.160 good approach for the next couple of years. But then 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:52.360 more outwards, we think that electrification will gain momentum and 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.480 also as part of goopstell lunches, we will then transition 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.720 to pure electric platforms, and I think this is a 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.240 way to think about this. And on top of this, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.040 we look also at things as you mentioned Nico Future, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.680 so we think this also is a very attractive technology, 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.480 many advantages in terms of charging time also see you 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.840 two balance. But we transition from a let's say, multi 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:20.080 energy approach to then pure electric going forward. And what 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.000 is the platform strategy was something that I want to 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.960 come back to later on. But since you brought it up, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:27.880 for you for doing it, of course, I guess the 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.760 answer is yes. But is that the given the fact 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:34.120 that as you say, electrification games momentum and in a 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.159 few years time, you will perhaps need two separate platforms, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.560 one for electric and one for the non electric part 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.960 as electric sales gain momentum. Is that a multi energy 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.880 platform approach the something that you think will will stay 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:54.120 with you for for a few more years. Well, at 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.440 the end of the day, obviously the customer will decide, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.080 and then we will decide how long we run the 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.799 multi energy platforms. As I said earlier, at the moment, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.640 we feel very comfortable with this because it gives us flexibility. 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.040 But then we expect that electrification will gain more momentum, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.000 so at one stage we will switch to electrified platforms, 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.520 but of course we have flexibility for how long we 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.120 run the multi energy platforms. Yeah, so I think it's 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.839 always good to be open for for many scenarios and 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.080 not just focus on one. I feel this is very 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.359 very important because it's hard to predict exactly what the 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.080 customer will require, and let's say five, six, seven years, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:37.320 one thing is for sure, the political framework is very clear, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.919 so we have to improve on CuO two and therefore 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:44.560 obsolutely electrification and Field said, will pay will play a 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.520 major role. Yeah, you talk about the customer and what 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:51.800 what they want, and earlier on about this very large 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.080 increase in the electric vehicle sales in Europe last year. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.480 Do you feel that we're at the moment where you're 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:04.160 seeing organic demand for primarily electric cars or it's still 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.280 a regular or driven the market pushed by the automakers 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:12.200 in order to reach some of the very tough emissions 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.159 limits here in Europe. Well, from from the opposite, we 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.480 very clearly see there is customer demand. Yeah, it started 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.520 last year, Um, it's increasing now. Of course, the question 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.960 will it continue like this? Yeah, because to give you 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.080 a data point, like last year, or sold thirty five 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.640 thousand electrified casts. This is around five six of our 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.640 total volume, and of course we see this growing also 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.479 in twenty one. Yeah, so we think customer demand is increasing, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.279 but the key question is will it come to levels 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:46.320 of thirty very very shortly? And it also obviously depends 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.120 on support from the government, charging infrastructure, many factors, but 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:55.200 we do think customer demand is significantly increasing, significantly increasing 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.920 going forward. As you have this certain multi platform strategy, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.240 multi elements platform and you're going to shoot soon enough 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.200 to the to the all electric platforms, how does the 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.640 strategy and which platform we use affect your profitability? In 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.360 electric cars center, how do you even define the profitability 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.480 of electric cars? So there is a lot of discussion 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.840 in the industry now that will be in the twenty 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.520 five for different segments, will be earlier for other segments. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.320 It would perhaps all the way up maybe from a 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.920 from from some people what they're saying, So, how do 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.400 you see the profitability of electric cars? Primarily buttery electric 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.040 cars developing in the next in the next several years. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.280 So when we from the oppen side look at the 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.600 requirements of profitability of electrified cars, we don't differentiate between 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.720 electrified cars and I cast because at the end of 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.000 the day, we have to come to similar levels, right, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.240 I mean, obviously the volume is reduced at the moment, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.120 many things were changed. Obviously we get also support from 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.800 governments in various countries. But long story short, we have 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.840 the same requirements in terms of profitability, and I think 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.440 it would be very let's say difficult to differentiate for 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.160 a long period of time and say, look, profitability of 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.120 electrified cars is much lower than for I see, so 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.240 we have to come to similar levels. That's in a 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.480 very important requirement. And when do you see that in 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.600 terms of the time frame is that something you can share. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.760 Do you see this profitability at the same level in 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.320 the next five years, for longer, for your for your business. Well, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.560 we steer this obviously already today because the question is 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.800 today and I don't want that electrified cars have lower 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:39.040 profitability than I see cars. And we tried everything to 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.960 do so that this is going in in the right direction. 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:46.600 Now for a very short break, stay with us, So 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.559 shifting a little bit. Are related to the platform strategies 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:55.280 and the profitability of cars up until now and still 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.559 that now. Of course, scale when factoring production, primarily on 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:02.200 the in term combustion engine side of things, is a 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:06.960 key factor that affects both profitability but also for an 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.920 extent completive advantage in the in the auto industry along 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.760 many others. Do you see that changing scale becoming less 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.000 relevant in a in a more electrified era. Well, although 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.320 I would say scale is always helpful, Yeah, it's it's 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.319 always helpful. It's a factor. But what for us is 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.800 it is probably even more important, is that we have 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.600 a good control of the entire value chain. So what 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.480 what do I mean in terms of electrified cars? So 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.880 we for example investor also in the production and the 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.080 R and D of battery cells, which is a very 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.720 important strategic decision to say, look, we want to do 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:45.559 this ourselves um and not purchase it from from suppliers. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.600 We invest, for example in Germany and France a few 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.760 billion of euros to do the battery sales ourselves, also 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.000 with the electric motor, so it feels like for us 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.400 this is co competent um and we want to manage 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.040 the entire value chain. This is very important. And then 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.800 of course we benefit from the fact that we are 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:06.920 part of good Sell. Launch is a very large automotive company. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.040 So I think scale is always a factor, but also 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.680 strategic thinking what do we do ourselves and what do 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.600 we do with external papness. Is there something beyond scale 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.040 that may become a source of competitive advantage in the 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.320 next few year? You said strategic thinking of course, and 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:28.240 I guess product placement. Does the electrified era offer different 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.360 opportunities or additional opportunities to differentiate yourself and get some 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:36.200 some advantage over your competitors. Absolutely, and there are there 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.280 are many many ways to do that. And again it 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.520 comes back to Okay, what is our customer demanding from us? 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.839 What is the customer really requesting in terms of electrified casts. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.600 So we try to differentiate this in various aspects, and yeah, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.400 of course gain our competitive advantage in this. Okay, I 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.720 guess earlier when you talk about sells, you primarily refer 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.680 to this UH venture that you have, the automotive cell 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.080 company that you have with p s A, Total and Soft, 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.960 and the scale of that ambition I think has received 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.080 less attention than at least in Europe compared to other 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.080 forays of automakers in the In that in that business 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.640 you explained a little bit about the russianale behind it. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.240 Could you expand a little bit on that? I mean, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.840 for example, what is the role of the different partners 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.520 in this business? Again? Why does a lotomaker want to 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:32.200 become a sell manufacturer? Isn't that becoming a commodity business 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.080 relicly food? Well, a couple of things. I mean, first 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.080 of all, it's important that we control the entire value chain. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.560 And we teamed up with Total and Stuft and created 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.560 a joint venture and we'll build now in the first 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.720 step two factories, one in Germany, one in France. Quite 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.000 significant investments or just here in Germany when when invest 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.800 two billion euros in a I would say a real 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.400 giga factory and we will produce and better resells for 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.520 five hundred thousands like ctrified cars per years, so it's 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.520 significant volume. And of course we first of all think 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.200 that together with our partners, we have the know how 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.480 for this, but then also the competitive advantage, and I 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.600 think it's it's very important to have in this case 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.520 here in Germany and test us lout on the factory 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.560 close to other factories where we manufacture our cars, so 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.720 we feel this is a competitive advantage instead of shipping 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:27.240 bettery sales around the world. It's obviously also good from us. 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.880 You too footprint similar things we do with the electric motor, 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.760 so we are of the opinion this is core competence. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.679 We can also differentiate in terms of cost, but also 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.880 customer requirements and it's better in our hands and it 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.640 makes total sense in terms of the overall electrification strategy 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.280 going forward. We talked earlier on so I didn't just 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.760 take the final a few minutes to ask you something 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:55.120 broader beyond the technology striate or manufacturing decisions also has 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.360 gone through a lot in the last few years, and 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.640 that's probably an understatement. So can you describe from your 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:06.520 own point of view what happens since and when are 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.440 you coming out of that cycle? Does that cycle end, 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.600 and what's the next few years will look like? Yeah, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.079 so a bit of background. So two thousand seventeen was 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:18.439 a very important year for Open because we became part 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.440 of Group p s A. R p s A took 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.840 over Open and Open had I think twenty years of 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.360 permanent losses. So it was very obvious that we had 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.160 to change something fundamentally, and we did so. We put 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.360 in house a plan together which we called the Pace 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.120 Plan and gave it very clear but also straightforward, simple 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.360 targets and said, look, we have to become sustainably profitable, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.160 go electric and become a global brand. And then with 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.040 internal people and I think that's important, we really unleashed 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.600 the power of Open inside and said, look, we have 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.880 to improve our brand perception, the pricing, reduced complexity, reduced 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:59.400 costs and very simple things, and then worked very hard 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:01.840 on the implementation and this worked very well, I have 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.800 to say. So in the first year after the implementation 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.040 we came to profit level two thousand nineteen we had 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:12.600 one point one billion profits, so significant profit improvement. And 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.360 now we invest into the electrification is as you and 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.240 I discussed during this interview, and we also go more 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.560 into markets outside of Europe. So we feel this was 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.280 a very important transformation of the company. To your question, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.160 will it ever end, No, it will always continue out 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.200 because first of all, we want to get better every day, 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.880 but the industry isn't such a transformation. So I feel 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.560 this was an important turnaround. But in a way, the 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.360 basis for what we are doing now in terms of 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.520 investing into electrification fuel sure we talked about. So it 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.880 will continue and I guess that makes the industry so exciting. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.000 So what I heard here is a lot of you know, 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.360 like a large number of improvements, perhaps small steps in 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.720 some cases, bigger steps in other cases. Is that the 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.239 a learning a lesson for other companies or for investors 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.720 when they're looking at this transition that other companies will 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.560 will have to go through in the next few years. 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.960 So is it a continuation of a large number of 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:17.480 small steps Rundan something big that can change things very quickly? Well, 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.880 I would say it is a combination of big things 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.320 and small steps. Yeah, you have to do both. Um. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.320 For example, in our case, our diversity complexity was huge, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.960 and we significantly reduced it, like down by fifty sixty percent, 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.120 So heart decisions. Also, we transitioned very quickly to the 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.480 group architectures, the mighty energy platforms we discussed early on. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.920 So I think it requires, especially in these days, very 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.120 big changes. At the same time, you always need to 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.080 have like small steps on top, because just rely on 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.200 a few things is not sufficient. Yeah. Um, so that 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.840 was our experience. And then of course it's always helpful 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.720 when you are in an environment where everybody in the 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.240 company knows, like, look, we cannot continue as in the past. Yeah, 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:04.600 and maybe that is also a good lesson out of 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.760 the COVID pandemic in many many examples, we know we 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.920 cannot continue as in the past, so we have to change, 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.920 and maybe that is accelerating the whole transformation. Yeah. So 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.160 we had very good experience with it and we we 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.480 we we feel we did the right things, but it 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.720 will continue. Like one last question I have free Michael, 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:29.160 is beyond technloud power train technologists and where you place 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.360 your manufacturing plants and everything, what are the other big 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.600 trends or mega trends that you're monitoring on a recurrent 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.360 basis and have the potential to affect the other industry 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.720 in the next two years. Well, I would say that 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.760 the key point from my perspective is um all around digitalization, 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.240 so connectivity within the car, but also digitalization in terms 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.520 of how people buy cars. So I think UM selling 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.040 online is a big, big topic. We learned about this 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.280 much more now in the pandemic, So the whole topic 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.760 of digitalization is probably changing the automotive industry very very strongly, 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.520 maybe even more than the power train one. And I 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.080 mean we are in good company with all the other industries. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.840 But I think the whole topic of digitalization from a 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.560 customer point of view but also from a product point 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.119 of view, I think is very very big change, and 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:20.879 of course we have to do a lot of things 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.320 to get ready for this. So digitalization is from my perspective, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.119 that the next big, big topic for us. Michael, thank 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.159 you very much for being here today and all the 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.800 best for the next few years. Thank you, Nicole, thanks 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:43.040 for having me. This week's show was produced by Eva 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.240 gonzalezi Isla and edited by Rex Corner of Grace Took Media. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.200 Bloomberginni app is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.960 And its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, nor it 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.520 should it be construed as investment advice, investment recommendations, or 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:58.960 a recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloombergunia 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.800 should not be considered as information sufficient upon which to 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.480 base an investment decision. 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