1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,236 --> 00:00:23,076 Speaker 2: I was taking a road trip not long ago, listening 3 00:00:23,076 --> 00:00:26,036 Speaker 2: to the Joe Rogan experience, as I like to do sometimes. 4 00:00:26,476 --> 00:00:28,596 Speaker 2: It was an old episode he'd done with Robert F. 5 00:00:28,676 --> 00:00:32,516 Speaker 2: Kennedy Junior, before he became US Secretary for Health and 6 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 2: Human Services, the man responsible for running a massive medical 7 00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:40,236 Speaker 2: science administration. By the way, I was once on Joe Rogan. 8 00:00:40,396 --> 00:00:43,276 Speaker 2: It was a while back, and from my experience that day, 9 00:00:43,516 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 2: I came up with a theory, which is that all 10 00:00:46,436 --> 00:00:49,556 Speaker 2: the good stuff happens in any Rogan interview as you 11 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,556 Speaker 2: approach our three, when the guest has finally adapted to 12 00:00:53,676 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 2: Rogan's particular seductive rhythms, and when all thoughts of the 13 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:01,916 Speaker 2: outside world have evaporated. If you listen to Rogan, in 14 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:05,316 Speaker 2: other words, you have to commit. And so on that 15 00:01:05,396 --> 00:01:08,716 Speaker 2: car ride I did, and at the one hour and 16 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:12,716 Speaker 2: fifty two minutes mark, right on schedule, came in exchange 17 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:18,436 Speaker 2: which I found so fascinating, so peculiar, so downright weird, 18 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 2: that I pulled my car over to the side of 19 00:01:21,196 --> 00:01:27,716 Speaker 2: the road and said to myself, oh man, RFK was 20 00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 2: talking about measles, and he essentially tells Rogan the kids 21 00:01:31,236 --> 00:01:34,876 Speaker 2: who die for measles don't die because of measles. They 22 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 2: die because they're malnourished. 23 00:01:37,396 --> 00:01:40,236 Speaker 3: And you know, it's hard for a disease to kill 24 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 3: a healthy person. It's hard for an infectious disease to 25 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 3: kill a healthy person with a rugged immune system. 26 00:01:45,676 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 2: And then Rogan says evidence, well, not. 27 00:01:48,556 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 4: The Spanish flu though, right, which. 28 00:01:50,756 --> 00:01:51,516 Speaker 1: Is a good question. 29 00:01:52,236 --> 00:01:54,796 Speaker 2: The nineteen eighteen Spanish flu was one of the most 30 00:01:54,836 --> 00:01:58,116 Speaker 2: devastating pandemics in history. It killed as many as one 31 00:01:58,196 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 2: hundred million people, and an overwhelming number of its victims 32 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:05,876 Speaker 2: were healthy and relatively young adults, in sharp contrast to 33 00:02:05,956 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 2: the normal influenza mortality pattern on preying on the old 34 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 2: in the infirm Rogan is asking, if it's so hard 35 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:15,636 Speaker 2: for a disease to kill a healthy person, then how 36 00:02:15,636 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 2: do you explain the most devastating viral epidemic of all time? 37 00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 3: And Kennedy says, well, the Spanish flu was not a virus. Oh, 38 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:30,236 Speaker 3: and even Fauci now acknowledges that, and they you know, 39 00:02:30,276 --> 00:02:33,396 Speaker 3: there's there's good evidence that the Spanish flu. There's there is, 40 00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:37,116 Speaker 3: you know, not not a definitive, but very very strong 41 00:02:37,156 --> 00:02:42,276 Speaker 3: evidence the Spanish flu was vaccine induced flu the deaths 42 00:02:42,356 --> 00:02:44,316 Speaker 3: were vaccine induced. 43 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 2: Three bombshells all in a row. One the influenza epidemic 44 00:02:50,116 --> 00:02:54,556 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighteen was not caused by influenza. Two Anthony 45 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:58,916 Speaker 2: Fauci longtime had the National Institute of Infectious Disease at 46 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:02,436 Speaker 2: NAH and established. Of all defenders of the medical science 47 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 2: orthodoxy agrees with me on this and three the real 48 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 2: cause of the nineteen eighteen pandemic was a population wide 49 00:03:11,356 --> 00:03:19,076 Speaker 2: reaction to a vaccine. I mean, my name is Malcolm Gladwell. 50 00:03:19,276 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 2: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked 51 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:29,716 Speaker 2: and misunderstood. I already knew this about RFK JR. He 52 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 2: says crazy things all the time. That's what our last 53 00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:35,716 Speaker 2: episode was all about. It's his m o. He's a 54 00:03:35,756 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 2: disciple of the obscure French nineteenth century biologist Antoine Beauchamp, 55 00:03:39,876 --> 00:03:42,996 Speaker 2: whose claim to fame is that he completely misunderstood the 56 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 2: foundational idea in modern medical science. I didn't pull over 57 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 2: because of RFK JR. I pulled over because of Joe Rocn. 58 00:03:55,116 --> 00:04:00,076 Speaker 2: This episode is devoted to the lost art of the interviewer, 59 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:10,996 Speaker 2: because some of us apparently have forgotten how to ask questions. 60 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:14,276 Speaker 2: When I went on Joe Rogan, it was before he 61 00:04:14,316 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 2: had moved to Austin. He still lived in southern California 62 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:20,476 Speaker 2: and operated out of what seemed like an old airplane 63 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 2: hangar somewhere deep in the Los Angeles suburbs. I can't 64 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:27,276 Speaker 2: tell you where exactly because I had to sign an NDA, 65 00:04:28,076 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 2: but it was a vast open structure full of weights, 66 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 2: monster trucks, dogs, and exceedingly fit young men clutching energy drinks. 67 00:04:38,276 --> 00:04:40,516 Speaker 2: The studio was in the middle of the room, inside 68 00:04:40,556 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 2: what looked like a repurposed boxing ring. It was so 69 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 2: much fun that if Rogan's people want to be back, 70 00:04:48,676 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 2: I would jump on a plane this evening, packing only 71 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 2: a muscle shirt and a case of Red Bull to 72 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,596 Speaker 2: bring as a housewarming gift. I tell you all this 73 00:04:57,836 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 2: just so you can imagine a scene. RFK Junior is 74 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 2: a weightlifter himself, barrel chest, biceps like big chunks of 75 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:11,836 Speaker 2: hormone free non GMO ham boxing ring mano Amano. There's 76 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 2: a tantalizing scent of testosterone in the air, and Kennedy 77 00:05:17,036 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 2: just talks about all the things he likes to talk about, bautism, vaccines, 78 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 2: refrigerated trucks the Hudson River. Then he gets to the 79 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:33,636 Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen flu full disclosure. The nineteen eighteen flu is 80 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 2: one of my very favorite subjects. Many many years ago, 81 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:39,836 Speaker 2: I heard that a scientist had discovered that they were 82 00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 2: victims of the nineteen eighteen flu buried deep in a 83 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 2: cemetery in a small town in Norway, high above the 84 00:05:46,716 --> 00:05:49,236 Speaker 2: Arctic circle. So there was a chance that they had 85 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 2: been frozen ever since, meaning they could be dug up 86 00:05:52,476 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 2: and intact samples of the nineteen eighteen virus could be extracted. 87 00:05:57,396 --> 00:06:00,956 Speaker 2: This fact made me so deliriously happy that I convinced 88 00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 2: my editors at the New Yorker to fly me to Norway, 89 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 2: New York to Oslo, Oslo to Trompso, then across the 90 00:06:07,716 --> 00:06:11,596 Speaker 2: Norwegian Sea from trumps So delng you're bin, just so 91 00:06:11,676 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: I could walk across the tundra and see the cemetery, 92 00:06:15,156 --> 00:06:18,116 Speaker 2: which I did, although I didn't linger because the guy 93 00:06:18,116 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 2: at my hotel told me to watch out for polar bears. 94 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 2: My point is I'm down for any nineteen eighteen flu 95 00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:25,756 Speaker 2: virus talk. 96 00:06:26,756 --> 00:06:29,516 Speaker 4: What are you saying that the Spanish flu was so? 97 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:33,596 Speaker 2: Rogan asks his question about the nineteen eighteen flu. So far, 98 00:06:33,676 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 2: so good. This is what an interviewer is supposed to do. 99 00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:43,076 Speaker 5: What is the documentation the you know I you said 100 00:06:43,076 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 5: that Fauci HASGIVAUGI. 101 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 3: Wrote an article in two thousand and eight and that 102 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:54,716 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it's two thousand and eight in which 103 00:06:54,756 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 3: he acknowledged that it was not the flu that was 104 00:06:57,676 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 3: killing those people, it was a back geological infection and 105 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:06,556 Speaker 3: a back geological infection. These days, you could one hundred 106 00:07:06,596 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 3: percent you're all of it with an. 107 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:13,196 Speaker 2: The article in question is immediately googled. 108 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 5: This is important to cover, right, So let's see if 109 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:18,476 Speaker 5: we can find this predominant role of bacteria pneumonia has 110 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:23,916 Speaker 5: caused death in pandemic influenza implication Yeah, of a pandemic 111 00:07:23,996 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 5: influenza preparedness. So what this is saying is that bacterial 112 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:29,876 Speaker 5: pneumonia was the cause of death. 113 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 4: What's three? What he says? 114 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:35,316 Speaker 5: The results conclusions The majority of deaths from the nineteen 115 00:07:35,316 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 5: eighteen nineteen nineteen influenza pandemic likely resulted directly from secondary 116 00:07:40,956 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 5: bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory tract bacteria. 117 00:07:47,396 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 2: A proposition has been advanced. Google has been summoned, the 118 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 2: proposition has been verified. Oh my god, mister virus himself, 119 00:07:56,636 --> 00:08:01,316 Speaker 2: Tony Fauci is peddling this a line of bs. Fauci 120 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 2: goes on and on about viruses, but then you actually 121 00:08:04,636 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 2: read one of his papers and he admits the biggest 122 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 2: viral pandemic wasn't caused by a virus at all. It 123 00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 2: was caused by a runaway bacterial infection. Did you hear 124 00:08:17,076 --> 00:08:22,076 Speaker 2: that sigh from Joe becauseau was a moment on Joe 125 00:08:22,116 --> 00:08:25,676 Speaker 2: Rogan where someone in a position of power really really 126 00:08:25,716 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 2: bumps Joe out. But wait, did Fauci actually say that? 127 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:35,316 Speaker 2: When I heard Rogan read that conclusion, the word that 128 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 2: jumped out for me was secondary. One of the things 129 00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:43,956 Speaker 2: that a respiratory virus, like the flu or covid for 130 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:46,956 Speaker 2: that matter, does is attack the cells that line the 131 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 2: walls of your lungs. The cells die, they can become leaky, 132 00:08:51,356 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 2: your lungs fill with fluid. In severe cases, you come 133 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 2: down with viral pneumonia, and in that state you often 134 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:02,636 Speaker 2: get hit by a second round of pneumonia, this one 135 00:09:03,116 --> 00:09:08,356 Speaker 2: caused by a bacteria. That's the secondary infection which follows 136 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:11,076 Speaker 2: as result of the primary infection. 137 00:09:11,876 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 6: An analogy that I've used when I've been trying to 138 00:09:15,556 --> 00:09:18,956 Speaker 6: talk about this phenomenon is trauma. 139 00:09:19,436 --> 00:09:23,756 Speaker 2: This is Benjamin Singer, a pulmonary specialist at Northwestern University. 140 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 6: So, a motor vehicle trauma that occurs as a primary event, right, 141 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:32,836 Speaker 6: it happens many, many times a day. And in severe trauma, 142 00:09:33,156 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 6: you have hemorrhage, you have blood loss that can become 143 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 6: life threatening. Patients will go to the operating room to 144 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:41,756 Speaker 6: try to prevent the hemorrhage from causing death. But in 145 00:09:41,796 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 6: some cases patients, unfortunately, if the trauma is severe enough, 146 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:49,596 Speaker 6: do die from hemorrhage. But you wouldn't say that there 147 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 6: is a problem with hemorrhage just befalling people. Right. It 148 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:57,916 Speaker 6: ultimately was the car crash. It was the trauma that 149 00:09:58,076 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 6: was the initial cause. 150 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 2: Singer published a study not long ago showing that in 151 00:10:03,756 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 2: many COVID victims, it was that second bacterial infection that 152 00:10:08,116 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 2: killed them. In the absence of viral infection. Would what 153 00:10:13,636 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 2: would your odds of having a bacterial pneumonia be? 154 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: Would they be? 155 00:10:17,316 --> 00:10:19,956 Speaker 2: I mean, are you getting the bacterial pneumonia in large 156 00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 2: part because your body is so weakened by the viral attack. 157 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:26,676 Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a key point. These are not bacterial pneumonias 158 00:10:26,716 --> 00:10:28,276 Speaker 6: that would have occurred on their own. 159 00:10:28,356 --> 00:10:28,836 Speaker 7: They aren't. 160 00:10:29,196 --> 00:10:32,876 Speaker 6: They are occurring only because of the heightened susceptibility of 161 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 6: the host having had the viral numoonia. 162 00:10:35,076 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 1: To begin with. 163 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 2: The Fauci study that Rogan googles and reads during the 164 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:43,396 Speaker 2: Kennedy interview involved looking at tissue samples from the lungs 165 00:10:43,396 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 2: of people who had died during the Spanish flu, and 166 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 2: what Fauci found was exactly what Singer found with COVID, 167 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 2: that the virus so weakened the lungs of people in 168 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen that they were vulnerable to a second fatal 169 00:10:55,756 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 2: round of bacterial pneumonia. Kennedy somehow read that paper and 170 00:11:00,996 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 2: completely missed its point. Fauci wasn't denying the role of 171 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 2: the virus in nineteen eighteen. He was doing the opposite. 172 00:11:07,676 --> 00:11:11,236 Speaker 2: He was explaining how the viaris did its damage. It's 173 00:11:11,236 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 2: safe to say, isn't it. Kennedy does not understand the 174 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 2: difference between of primary and a secondary infection. 175 00:11:16,356 --> 00:11:18,076 Speaker 6: I think that's right. 176 00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 2: Rogan is a very smart guy. He's one of the 177 00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 2: biggest podcasters in the world. Rogan does mixed martial arts 178 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 2: for fun. He's not afraid of anyone yet. RFK Junior 179 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:33,716 Speaker 2: goes on his show and says something so dumb that 180 00:11:33,796 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 2: you couldn't get away with it in a high school 181 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 2: biology class. And what did Rogan do? He just sighed 182 00:11:40,796 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 2: and moved on. Joe, dude, what's wrong with you? The 183 00:12:00,596 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 2: most natural form of human interaction is the conversation. Two 184 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 2: people talking, unscripted, improvised. It ends when it is the 185 00:12:09,996 --> 00:12:12,756 Speaker 2: roles of listener and talker are fluid. The endpoint can 186 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 2: be any number of a million different things, consolation, admonishment, encouragement, seduction, joy. 187 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 2: An interview is very different. It's two people talking with 188 00:12:22,956 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 2: a purpose. One person asks questions of another with the 189 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:32,516 Speaker 2: intention of revealing something of consequence. Conversation is easy and natural. 190 00:12:32,956 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 2: Interviewing is an acquired art. There are weeks where I 191 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 2: might do ten interviews each an hour or more, with 192 00:12:39,796 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 2: even more time devoted to preparation. I've been doing that 193 00:12:43,236 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 2: my whole career, and only in the last five years 194 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:48,076 Speaker 2: or so do I think I've gotten any good at it. 195 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:54,596 Speaker 2: Interviewing is much much harder than conversation, but you know, 196 00:12:54,636 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 2: it's even harder performance, the interview conducted for the benefit 197 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 2: of someone else, an audience. This is what Oprah does 198 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 2: better than anyone else. I recently rewatched Oprah's famous interview 199 00:13:09,436 --> 00:13:13,516 Speaker 2: with Megan Markle, and oh man, that's a masterclass. You 200 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 2: have an actress, that is, someone trained in the art 201 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 2: of deceptive self presentation, who wants to air a carefully 202 00:13:19,916 --> 00:13:23,716 Speaker 2: scripted grievance about her position as a royal princess, and 203 00:13:23,756 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 2: the whole world intends to watch. The degree of difficulty 204 00:13:27,316 --> 00:13:30,316 Speaker 2: on this one is through the roof. How do you 205 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:34,476 Speaker 2: get someone to leave behind their carefully created self. Oprah 206 00:13:34,756 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 2: nails it. 207 00:13:37,476 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 8: You certainly must have had some conversations with Harry about 208 00:13:40,756 --> 00:13:44,756 Speaker 8: it and have your own suspicions as to why they 209 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 8: didn't want to make Archie a prince. 210 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:52,556 Speaker 2: This is halfway in. Markle has revealed that the royal 211 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:57,116 Speaker 2: family is declining to give her firstborn son Archie, a title, 212 00:13:57,516 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 2: and when she hears this, Oprah's eyes light up. I've 213 00:14:00,876 --> 00:14:02,956 Speaker 2: been interviewed by Oprah before, and let me tell you, 214 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 2: when she sees a moment coming, she climbs inside your 215 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:08,116 Speaker 2: head and starts to direct traffic. 216 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 8: What are what are those thoughts. Why do you think 217 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 8: that is? Do you think it's because of his race? 218 00:14:17,596 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: That's sign And. 219 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 8: I know that's a loaded question, but. 220 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:24,476 Speaker 9: But I can give you an honest answer. 221 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 10: In those months when I was pregnant, all around this 222 00:14:29,876 --> 00:14:34,436 Speaker 10: same time. So we have in tandem the conversation of 223 00:14:34,756 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 10: he won't be given security, it's not going to be 224 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 10: given a title, and also concerns and conversations about how 225 00:14:44,996 --> 00:14:46,756 Speaker 10: dark his skin might be when he's born. 226 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:51,996 Speaker 4: What and. 227 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 1: Who? 228 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:57,476 Speaker 8: Who is having that conversation. 229 00:14:58,316 --> 00:14:58,756 Speaker 1: With you? 230 00:14:59,836 --> 00:15:03,516 Speaker 8: So there is a conversation, can hold it? 231 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:06,116 Speaker 9: Hold up the several conversations. 232 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:13,196 Speaker 8: There's a conversation with you who with Harry about how 233 00:15:13,276 --> 00:15:14,716 Speaker 8: dark your baby is going. 234 00:15:14,516 --> 00:15:17,716 Speaker 9: To be potentially and what that would mean or look like. 235 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 8: Ooh, And you're not going to tell me who had 236 00:15:20,876 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 8: the conversation. 237 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:25,276 Speaker 9: I think that would be very damaging to them. 238 00:15:25,676 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 2: Okay, Megan gets evasive. She says Harry was the one 239 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:31,836 Speaker 2: in those conversations, not her. 240 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:34,556 Speaker 10: It was really hard to be able to see those 241 00:15:34,556 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 10: as compartmentalized. 242 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:41,316 Speaker 8: We're concerned that if you were too brown that that 243 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:43,196 Speaker 8: would be a problem. Are you saying that. 244 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:46,396 Speaker 9: I wasn't able to follow up with why. 245 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 2: It's that last comment, of course, that is the most telling. 246 00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 2: I wasn't able to follow up with why Michael has 247 00:15:56,836 --> 00:16:01,076 Speaker 2: thus far presented an artfully constructed narrative of trivial grievances 248 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 2: designed to turn her into a punzel locked in the 249 00:16:04,076 --> 00:16:07,356 Speaker 2: lonely tower. But at that moment, Oprah gets her to 250 00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 2: give us a glimpse of something real. Somebody high up 251 00:16:11,516 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 2: was worried that her child would be too brown, and 252 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 2: Meghan wasn't able to follow up with why even the 253 00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:21,076 Speaker 2: choice of words follow up like there was a brief 254 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,036 Speaker 2: call with the Queen about Archie's potential blackness, but Megan 255 00:16:24,076 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 2: wasn't able to get the queen's people to schedule assumed 256 00:16:26,276 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 2: to provide more details, so she let the whole thing slide. 257 00:16:30,556 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 2: Oprah is so good, and she's good because she knows 258 00:16:34,876 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 2: how to keep pulling on a thread to get past 259 00:16:37,956 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 2: what seems like an obvious revelation to a second, deeper one. Okay, 260 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 2: now let's listen to Joe Rogan interviewing Elon Musk. This 261 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:52,196 Speaker 2: was just after Musk had given what looked an awful 262 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 2: lot like a stiff armed Nazi salute at a Trump. 263 00:16:55,436 --> 00:16:58,876 Speaker 5: Rally and now the same idiots are calling you a Nazi. 264 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,596 Speaker 5: It's the most bizarre thing I've ever seen in my life. 265 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:05,236 Speaker 5: I mean, there's so many examples of people saying, my 266 00:17:05,276 --> 00:17:08,156 Speaker 5: heart goes out to you get a little enthusiasm that 267 00:17:08,316 --> 00:17:10,516 Speaker 5: probably wouldn't be with hindsight. 268 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 11: Yes, but I was obviously meant in the most positive 269 00:17:14,276 --> 00:17:15,036 Speaker 11: spirit possible. 270 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:16,636 Speaker 4: Yes, obviously obviously. 271 00:17:16,676 --> 00:17:19,196 Speaker 5: But it's so strange where people want to think that 272 00:17:19,276 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 5: you are openly public publicly doing secret Nazi se Kyle 273 00:17:25,476 --> 00:17:26,196 Speaker 5: hand motions. 274 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 11: And now I can never pointed things diagonally. I can 275 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:31,996 Speaker 11: only pointed things there and there, and then actually you 276 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 11: have to divide that, yeah, because that's where the spaceship 277 00:17:34,996 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 11: is over there. 278 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 4: It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous, it's absurd. It's so it's delivery propaganda. 279 00:17:42,116 --> 00:17:46,116 Speaker 2: Imagine for a moment what Oprah would do. In that moment, 280 00:17:46,516 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 2: Oprah would ask, if you didn't want to be called 281 00:17:49,236 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 2: a Nazi, then why did you give a Nazi salute 282 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 2: in front of thousands of people. You'd ask that question 283 00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:56,996 Speaker 2: because that's what everyone was wondering when they saw the 284 00:17:57,036 --> 00:18:00,396 Speaker 2: offending image. Oprah would have put Musk on the couch, 285 00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 2: elon We all know you're a genius, but we also 286 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 2: know you're super sensitive. You spend all day on Twitter 287 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 2: responding to your critics, So why would you do something 288 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,996 Speaker 2: so perfectly designed to be misunderstood? Can't you just hear 289 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:17,236 Speaker 2: Oprah saying that, but not your Rogan? With Musk sitting 290 00:18:17,276 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 2: across the table from him, Rogan chooses to have the 291 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:22,796 Speaker 2: kind of conversation that you would have with a close 292 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,716 Speaker 2: friend late at night to console them after they have 293 00:18:25,796 --> 00:18:29,276 Speaker 2: done something really stupid. You know, what they did was stupid. 294 00:18:29,836 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 2: They know what they did was stupid. But what are 295 00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 2: friends for to help us sustain the pretense that what 296 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:37,876 Speaker 2: we did wasn't stupid at all? 297 00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:42,276 Speaker 11: It was obviously not meant in a negative way. That 298 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 11: it was that I literally said, my heart goes out 299 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 11: to you, and it was very positive. The entire speech 300 00:18:46,396 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 11: was very positive. I was being very enthusiastic about the 301 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 11: future in space, and that, you know, was great. 302 00:18:56,836 --> 00:18:57,156 Speaker 1: Crowd. 303 00:18:57,676 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 11: You know, so you got a little popped up, Yeah, 304 00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 11: it go popped up exactly. 305 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 4: Ye, that's all it is. Obviously Obviously, obviously. 306 00:19:05,036 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 2: Who among us has not inadvertently given a Nazi salute 307 00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 2: in front of the whole world after getting just a 308 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 2: little pumped up, listen to Rogan long enough and you realize, oh, 309 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 2: this is a pattern. Here's Rogan doing an episode with 310 00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:23,476 Speaker 2: Matt Walsh, big figuring conservative media blogger podcaster. He was 311 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:25,956 Speaker 2: on Rogan to talk about a documentary he just made 312 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:28,956 Speaker 2: called Am I a Racist? Where he made fun of 313 00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:32,476 Speaker 2: the way that progressive see racism around every corner, and 314 00:19:32,516 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 2: at a key point in the conversation, Walsh says. 315 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:37,756 Speaker 12: This, there was no one who lived on Earth one 316 00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 12: hundred years ago who we would not consider racist anywhere 317 00:19:41,116 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 12: of any race. If you go back two hundred years 318 00:19:44,716 --> 00:19:49,916 Speaker 12: or earlier than that, almost everybody either owned slaves or 319 00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:52,796 Speaker 12: was okay with slavery as an institution. You go back 320 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:57,116 Speaker 12: five hundred years, and there was nobody on the planet 321 00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:01,436 Speaker 12: who considered slavery to be wrong fundamentally. They might have 322 00:20:01,436 --> 00:20:03,876 Speaker 12: had issues with how slaves are treated in some context, 323 00:20:03,956 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 12: but it took like thousands of years for it to 324 00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:08,996 Speaker 12: ever even occur to a single human on Earth that 325 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:13,636 Speaker 12: slavery is actually fundamentally wrong, which is a crazy thing, 326 00:20:13,756 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 12: and that's actually an interesting thing we could you could 327 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 12: talk about and think about, like why is that. 328 00:20:19,756 --> 00:20:22,956 Speaker 2: You go back five hundred years and there was nobody 329 00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 2: on the planet who considered slavery to be wrong. Now, 330 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 2: once again, let us imagine Oprah in this moment. Oprah 331 00:20:31,796 --> 00:20:34,836 Speaker 2: would have sat up straight. Oprah would have stopped him 332 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:38,356 Speaker 2: right there, Matt. There were lots of people five hundred 333 00:20:38,396 --> 00:20:41,476 Speaker 2: years ago who considered slavery to be wrong, millions of 334 00:20:41,516 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 2: them slaves, exactly right. You think Moses led the Israelites 335 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:52,156 Speaker 2: out of slavery in Egypt just because he thought the 336 00:20:52,196 --> 00:20:54,836 Speaker 2: schools were better in the Promised Land. You think the 337 00:20:54,956 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 2: millions of people who were brutally rounded up in West Africa, 338 00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:02,036 Speaker 2: torn from their families and communities, marched onto slavery ships 339 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:06,876 Speaker 2: and shipped overseas in brutal conditions, were ambivalent about the 340 00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:10,356 Speaker 2: social institution they are being forced to join. And why 341 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 2: would Oprah have stopped Matt Walsh at that moment? Not 342 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:15,836 Speaker 2: just because she would have felt compelled to correct this 343 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:20,716 Speaker 2: spectacular bit of foolishness, but because her job, as she 344 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,276 Speaker 2: sees it, is to reveal something of importance about her 345 00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:29,836 Speaker 2: subjects to her audience. And here was a golden opportunity. 346 00:21:30,996 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 2: Do you want to know who Matt Walsh is? He 347 00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:37,316 Speaker 2: is someone who constructed a history of slavery and forgot 348 00:21:37,356 --> 00:21:43,116 Speaker 2: all about the slaves. But Joe Rogan, when presented with 349 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 2: that same opportunity, just wants to sit and chat. 350 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:50,836 Speaker 5: Well, I've had friends that have a different perspective on 351 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,876 Speaker 5: the Obama situation. And my friend Willie was talking to 352 00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:56,036 Speaker 5: me about this, and he was saying that what happened 353 00:21:56,196 --> 00:22:00,476 Speaker 5: was when you look one thing that we can be 354 00:22:00,516 --> 00:22:04,836 Speaker 5: sure of, is it racist, surreal? And when Obama became president, 355 00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:09,036 Speaker 5: those people became more embolden Obama. 356 00:22:09,116 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 2: What does Obama have to. 357 00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:10,636 Speaker 1: Do with this? 358 00:22:11,116 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 2: And who's Willie Willie Nelson? But of course we never 359 00:22:14,596 --> 00:22:18,716 Speaker 2: find out. It's none of our business. All of which 360 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 2: is to say, the warning signs were there from the 361 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:24,756 Speaker 2: very beginning of the RFK Junior interview. 362 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:28,756 Speaker 4: And so then we run into each other and Aspen. 363 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:33,556 Speaker 3: Just Randa is the weirdness moment because we were both 364 00:22:33,556 --> 00:22:34,516 Speaker 3: staring at each other. 365 00:22:34,676 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then we almost did it like a full three. 366 00:22:37,116 --> 00:22:42,036 Speaker 5: Six Yeah, yeah, yeah, I noticed you walking. 367 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 4: I'm like, that's it is, So I said, hey, what's up. 368 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 2: It was just going to be the two of them 369 00:22:49,836 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 2: in the room. The rest of us weren't invited, Do 370 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 2: I like evesdropping on Joe Rogan's conversations. I do, That's 371 00:23:10,676 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 2: why I listen to his show. But there are times 372 00:23:12,996 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 2: when the conversational mode doesn't work, and when you have 373 00:23:16,356 --> 00:23:19,836 Speaker 2: RFK Junior on, that's definitely one of those times. So 374 00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 2: let's start from the beginning and redo the RFK Junior conversation, 375 00:23:23,996 --> 00:23:26,076 Speaker 2: only this time with an eye to all the things 376 00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:31,276 Speaker 2: that a conversation between friends does not cover. Okay, Kennedy 377 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:35,636 Speaker 2: now elaborates on his theory of the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic, 378 00:23:36,196 --> 00:23:39,956 Speaker 2: what caused all those bacterial infections that he believes with 379 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 2: the real source of all those millions of deaths. 380 00:23:43,076 --> 00:23:45,596 Speaker 3: You know, I read an article reasonably, and you can 381 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:51,476 Speaker 3: look up these articles pretty easily. But the article that 382 00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 3: I read made a very strong case that the illness 383 00:23:55,916 --> 00:24:00,116 Speaker 3: came from testing a new vaccine in Kansas at a 384 00:24:00,196 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 3: military base in Kansas. 385 00:24:03,436 --> 00:24:06,836 Speaker 2: What should the interviewer do in this moment, or at 386 00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 2: least before letting this kind of thing go out into 387 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:13,556 Speaker 2: the world. Well, since this is a pretty dramatic claim, 388 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:16,996 Speaker 2: they should figure out what Kennedy is referring to. What 389 00:24:17,076 --> 00:24:19,636 Speaker 2: are these articles that led him to such a radical 390 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 2: reinterpretation of one of the most famous viral epidemics in history. 391 00:24:24,916 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 2: It turns out finding them is not that hard. It 392 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 2: took me five minutes on Google and two phone calls. 393 00:24:31,596 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 2: The first article I found is by Kevin Barry, an 394 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 2: attorney based out of Siast on Long Island who wrote 395 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:40,996 Speaker 2: a two part series for vaccine impact dot Com in 396 00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen called did a military experimental vaccine in nineteen 397 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 2: eighteen kill fifty to one hundred million people? Blamed a 398 00:24:50,196 --> 00:24:58,236 Speaker 2: Spanish flu? I was listening to rfk's appearance on Joe 399 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 2: Rogan and they have that moment when they start talking 400 00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:05,676 Speaker 2: about the nineteen eighteen flu, which is super fascinating, and 401 00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:10,756 Speaker 2: RFK says, well, in fact, i've quote so he says, 402 00:25:11,036 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 2: you know, well, you know well, the Spanish flue was 403 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 2: not a virus. It was he says, even Foucing now 404 00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 2: acknowledges that. But then he says, and you know, I 405 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:24,116 Speaker 2: read an article recently, and you can look at these 406 00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 2: articles pretty easily. The article that I read made a 407 00:25:27,676 --> 00:25:29,756 Speaker 2: very strong case. He onlyess came from testing a new 408 00:25:29,836 --> 00:25:33,956 Speaker 2: vaccine in Kansas at a military base in Kansas. Is 409 00:25:33,996 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 2: that your article? 410 00:25:34,716 --> 00:25:39,516 Speaker 7: He's referring to I'm not sure it probably as far 411 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 7: as I know that I wrote this in twenty eighteen 412 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 7: and I circulated it to my friends, and Bobby would 413 00:25:48,356 --> 00:25:49,076 Speaker 7: have been on the list. 414 00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:53,636 Speaker 2: Barry's article focuses on a trial for an experimental meningitis 415 00:25:53,716 --> 00:25:57,996 Speaker 2: vaccine run by doctor Frederick Gates, a first lieutenant in 416 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 2: the Army's Medical Corps during the First World War serving 417 00:26:02,116 --> 00:26:04,036 Speaker 2: at Fort Riley, Kansas. 418 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 7: That antiminingitas study that they published came out and that 419 00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:13,716 Speaker 7: started me down the path of digging into it. 420 00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:18,916 Speaker 2: Barry is convinced that the meningitis vaccine caused the Spanish 421 00:26:18,996 --> 00:26:22,236 Speaker 2: flu and that every scientist who has ever studied the 422 00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:26,316 Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen pandemic has just missed this. I asked him 423 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,836 Speaker 2: what role, if any, he thought the influenza virus played 424 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:32,636 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighteen influenza epidemic. 425 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:38,316 Speaker 7: Not a role that was a killer. But I think 426 00:26:38,316 --> 00:26:42,036 Speaker 7: that the killer was the bacterial meningitis. You know that 427 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:44,236 Speaker 7: there's something level of the conventional that literature calls it 428 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 7: a secondary infection. 429 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 2: Oh right, remember the Fauci paper that Rogan googled and misunderstood. 430 00:26:50,516 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 1: Barry read it too. 431 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 7: But like if you have the sniffles and a bullet 432 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:56,956 Speaker 7: cust of your head. Did the sniffles kill you? What 433 00:26:57,076 --> 00:26:58,516 Speaker 7: did the thing that rapped apart your locks? 434 00:26:58,676 --> 00:26:58,876 Speaker 4: Right? 435 00:26:59,556 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 2: This is source number one, Source number two as far 436 00:27:03,316 --> 00:27:06,276 Speaker 2: as I can tell. It's a chiropractor from Melbourne, Florida 437 00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 2: named sal Martin Gano, who wrote in his book that 438 00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:13,716 Speaker 2: this same rogue meningetis vaccine somehow got sent around the 439 00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:16,396 Speaker 2: world in nineteen eighteen, and then the whole thing was 440 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 2: covered up by the pharmaceutical industry. 441 00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 13: You know, they twisted and turned it around, but the 442 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 13: bottom line was they killed They just killed half the population. 443 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 13: I did deep dives with this stuff to try to, 444 00:27:27,596 --> 00:27:29,756 Speaker 13: you know, put it in perspective, but there's no way 445 00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 13: to put this in perspective. It was just downright ugly. 446 00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 2: So the conventional line about nineteen eighteen is that it 447 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 2: was an H one N one virus, and we have 448 00:27:38,716 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 2: we I'm curious of what so, and we we've isolated 449 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:47,716 Speaker 2: this virus from people who died in the pandemic. What 450 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:50,676 Speaker 2: role do you think that virus was playing in what 451 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 2: happened in nineteen eighteen? 452 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:53,636 Speaker 1: Probably nothing. 453 00:27:55,276 --> 00:28:01,356 Speaker 13: The detailed reports on what was actually found are buried 454 00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 13: This is like the Kennedy Files. You know, you try 455 00:28:04,316 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 13: to find good luck on that you're not going to 456 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:09,196 Speaker 13: find it. 457 00:28:12,156 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 2: If a friend tells you in private conversation that they 458 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 2: have a nutty idea about the nineteen eighteen Spanish flu, 459 00:28:18,876 --> 00:28:22,236 Speaker 2: maybe it's okay just to not unsmile, because a friend 460 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 2: is a friend, and we all have to tolerate the 461 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 2: eccentricities of those closest to us. But when you have 462 00:28:28,676 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 2: an audience in the tens of millions, and your friend 463 00:28:31,276 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 2: is someone of real power and influence, then maybe it's 464 00:28:34,676 --> 00:28:37,916 Speaker 2: not a bad idea to stop them and say, hold on, 465 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:42,196 Speaker 2: where are you getting this whole Kansas theory from? Because 466 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:45,236 Speaker 2: the way that Urka Junior answers that question will tell 467 00:28:45,316 --> 00:28:48,356 Speaker 2: us a lot about the way his mind works, and 468 00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:51,156 Speaker 2: we're all very interested in the way his mind works. 469 00:28:52,036 --> 00:28:54,916 Speaker 2: And then when he tells you, you might just want 470 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:59,156 Speaker 2: to say something like, just so we're clear, Bobby, we 471 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:02,596 Speaker 2: have a century of biomedical science on one side of 472 00:29:02,596 --> 00:29:05,396 Speaker 2: this question, and we have Kevin from Long Island and 473 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 2: South from South Florida. 474 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:07,436 Speaker 1: On the other. 475 00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:11,756 Speaker 2: And you're going with Kevin and si out. But Joe 476 00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:16,916 Speaker 2: Rogan doesn't come close. He just rolls over in the 477 00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:25,236 Speaker 2: middle of the road like a giant, tattooed, tightly muscled powsome. Joe, 478 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:36,276 Speaker 2: you're breaking my heart. When I was on my book 479 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:38,676 Speaker 2: tour for Revenge of the Tipping Point, I did an 480 00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 2: event at a theater in downtown San Diego. My interviewer 481 00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 2: was a guy named Michael Gervais. He's a psychologist who 482 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:49,556 Speaker 2: works a lot with elite athletes. He writes books. Nice guy. 483 00:29:49,676 --> 00:29:52,916 Speaker 2: The interview began much like the dozens of other interviews 484 00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:55,716 Speaker 2: I did on my book tour. So, when you think 485 00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 2: about it, and I'm going to come back to the 486 00:29:57,036 --> 00:29:59,156 Speaker 2: original question, but when you think about the future, do 487 00:29:59,196 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 2: you see it through an optimistic, a cynical or a 488 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:06,756 Speaker 2: pessimistic lens? Oh, I'm an optimist. I come from Glavels 489 00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:09,716 Speaker 2: are optimists. My mom I was talking to my mom. 490 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 2: My mom is ninety three and she just turned night 491 00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:16,316 Speaker 2: three and I was talking to her and it was 492 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:19,116 Speaker 2: her birthday, and she just she's twin. She was talking 493 00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:20,956 Speaker 2: to her and so she just called her twin sister, 494 00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:25,156 Speaker 2: who lives in Jamaica, and she said to me, she 495 00:30:25,236 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 2: was a little emotional, which is rare for Glad was 496 00:30:28,116 --> 00:30:29,556 Speaker 2: also not terribly emotional. 497 00:30:29,796 --> 00:30:30,276 Speaker 13: Huh. 498 00:30:30,316 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 2: And she said to me, you know, I look back 499 00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:37,756 Speaker 2: on my life and I cannot believe how improbable it was. 500 00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:42,236 Speaker 2: She was born in like a house that was probably 501 00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:44,436 Speaker 2: a third the size of this a quarter of the 502 00:30:44,436 --> 00:30:48,476 Speaker 2: size of this stage, with no electricity, running water, in 503 00:30:48,516 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 2: the middle of Jamaica, and she ended up, you know, 504 00:30:53,276 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 2: living this wonderful life. And she's like when I was 505 00:30:57,196 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 2: born in she said to me, when I was born 506 00:30:59,596 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 2: in Jamaica, and then early inteen thirties, twins rarely survived, 507 00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:07,676 Speaker 2: so that even that I survived was a miracle. Then 508 00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 2: came this, you parents who think of their lives as 509 00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:16,316 Speaker 2: my parents have. Also my dad is not dad but 510 00:31:17,236 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 2: deeply religious in I think the best possible way, and 511 00:31:20,956 --> 00:31:24,996 Speaker 2: think of their lives as a gift from God. And 512 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 2: when you grow up with that, it is very, very 513 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:34,596 Speaker 2: hard not to participate in that spirit. Well, I'm getting 514 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,236 Speaker 2: a little emotional to you. I'm in danger. When I 515 00:31:37,236 --> 00:31:39,516 Speaker 2: talk about my father, I start crying. 516 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:53,556 Speaker 4: So, yeah, what is that about. I don't know he was. 517 00:31:57,836 --> 00:32:02,636 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. 518 00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 2: I'd encourage you to open it wide open. There I 519 00:32:07,756 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 2: was on stage in front of hundreds of people, perfectly happy. 520 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 2: Then my dad came up, and all of a sudden, 521 00:32:14,596 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 2: I became overwhelmed, and I was embarrassed. It wasn't what 522 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:21,716 Speaker 2: I intended. I wasn't there to bear my soul, didn't 523 00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:24,756 Speaker 2: I just say ten seconds before, the Globels are not 524 00:32:24,836 --> 00:32:29,036 Speaker 2: emotional people. I want to move on, but Jervase won't 525 00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:33,196 Speaker 2: let me. So off we go in an entirely new direction. 526 00:32:35,356 --> 00:32:39,796 Speaker 2: I mean, I do cry every time he's been He's 527 00:32:39,836 --> 00:32:48,436 Speaker 2: been gone five years. And a friend of mine said, 528 00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 2: two friends of mine said two very beautiful things that 529 00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:57,276 Speaker 2: I've always remembered. One was a friend of mine who 530 00:32:57,556 --> 00:33:01,236 Speaker 2: was writing something about his father, and he said, my 531 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:06,116 Speaker 2: father died twenty years ago. Today, I know him better 532 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 2: today than I did back then. And I think about 533 00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:14,716 Speaker 2: that nearly every day, and because I think I know 534 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:19,476 Speaker 2: him better now. And another thing a friend of mine said, 535 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:25,316 Speaker 2: in trying to console me, was that grief is the 536 00:33:25,356 --> 00:33:31,956 Speaker 2: way we keep someone alive. Yeah, and it's a gift 537 00:33:32,156 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 2: in other words. Yeah, And I think that I can't. 538 00:33:39,316 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 2: I think I continue to grieve because I can. 539 00:33:44,076 --> 00:33:44,836 Speaker 7: I can't let it go. 540 00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:52,396 Speaker 2: Subjects come to interviews with prerehearsed narratives, stories that have 541 00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:55,076 Speaker 2: been told so many times that the ruts on the 542 00:33:55,156 --> 00:33:59,276 Speaker 2: road have become deep and narrow. In a conversation, our 543 00:33:59,276 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 2: partner gives us the freedom to follow the familiar path. 544 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 2: They encourage and support with nods and smiles. But the 545 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 2: performance is but the audience, the third party demands and deserves, 546 00:34:13,236 --> 00:34:17,716 Speaker 2: is something more a departure. I have a friend who's 547 00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:20,796 Speaker 2: a screenwriter who always says, the job of the storyteller 548 00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:26,476 Speaker 2: is to defy the audience's expectations. That's absolutely right to 549 00:34:26,516 --> 00:34:29,036 Speaker 2: take the audience somewhere they didn't know they were going. 550 00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:32,956 Speaker 2: And that's what Gervais was doing when he interrupted me. 551 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:36,916 Speaker 4: So what did your dad teach you? 552 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:40,396 Speaker 2: I don't think he had that question in mind when 553 00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:41,596 Speaker 2: he prepared for the interview. 554 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:43,236 Speaker 11: He was. 555 00:34:45,356 --> 00:34:46,356 Speaker 4: So he's an Englishman. 556 00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:48,796 Speaker 1: That's a big, pushy beard. 557 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:51,156 Speaker 13: And he was. 558 00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 2: Such a stereotypical englishman. 559 00:34:54,676 --> 00:34:55,036 Speaker 4: He was. 560 00:34:55,956 --> 00:34:59,276 Speaker 2: He liked going for long walks in the rain with dogs. 561 00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:06,076 Speaker 2: He was a gardener. That's what he loved to do 562 00:35:06,116 --> 00:35:10,956 Speaker 2: above all else. He uh, he only ever cried when 563 00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:17,236 Speaker 2: he was reading Dickens to his children. He uh. He 564 00:35:17,316 --> 00:35:19,796 Speaker 2: was a mathematician, and a very good one. I think, 565 00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:21,956 Speaker 2: although I have no idea because I could never follow 566 00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 2: what he was doing. 567 00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:27,356 Speaker 1: He was a. 568 00:35:28,316 --> 00:35:31,556 Speaker 2: He was completely indifferent to what the world thought it did, 569 00:35:31,676 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 2: just did whatever he wanted to do, which was I thought, 570 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:37,156 Speaker 2: as a kid, was the most magnificent thing I had 571 00:35:37,236 --> 00:35:39,956 Speaker 2: ever seen. You know that, You see everyone in this 572 00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:43,516 Speaker 2: room right now because oh that's where he got it from. 573 00:35:44,476 --> 00:35:45,116 Speaker 1: Yeah he was. 574 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:47,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's that's the big gift that he passed you. 575 00:35:51,316 --> 00:36:09,276 Speaker 1: There you go. That's how it's done. 576 00:36:09,756 --> 00:36:12,916 Speaker 2: Revision's History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Nina Bird Lawrence, 577 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:17,756 Speaker 2: and bendedaf Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Chakerji. Fact checking 578 00:36:17,756 --> 00:36:21,756 Speaker 2: by Kate Furby. Original scoring by Luis Gara, Jake Korsky 579 00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:25,556 Speaker 2: and bendedaf Haffrey. Mixing and mastering on this episode by 580 00:36:25,676 --> 00:36:30,676 Speaker 2: Jake Gorsky. Production support from Luke LeMond. Our executive producer 581 00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:34,356 Speaker 2: is Jacob Smith. Special thanks to Sarah Nix and el 582 00:36:34,436 --> 00:36:35,956 Speaker 2: Hefe Gretacone. 583 00:36:36,916 --> 00:36:55,236 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Glappo. Where have you gone? 584 00:36:55,356 --> 00:37:00,436 Speaker 2: Joe Rogan Experience? Our nation turns its lonely. 585 00:37:00,116 --> 00:37:00,956 Speaker 1: Eyes to you. 586 00:37:01,836 --> 00:37:08,476 Speaker 2: Woohoo, what's that you say, mister Kennedy? John Joe has 587 00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:12,956 Speaker 2: left and gone away? Hey, Hey, hey hey, hey,