1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 3: three of our series on the ore powered galleys of 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 3: the ancient world. Now, if you haven't heard parts one 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 3: and two yet, you should go back check those out first, 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 3: but for a brief recap. In the previous episodes, we 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 3: talked about the difference between paddling with a paddle and 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 3: rowing with an ore. An ore is of course, resting 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: on or connected to, part of the boat itself, and 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 3: you typically face backwards when you row. We talked about 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 3: archaeological evidence of Mesolithic wooden paddles found in northern Europe. 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: We talked about some of the pressures leading to the 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: development of different power mechanisms for ancient boats, wind powered 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: sails versus human powered or We discussed the different designs 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 3: of war galleys in the ancient Mediterranean and the considerations 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 3: that led to increasing concentration of rowers and oars put 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 3: more oars in. Starting with single level galleys, the penteconter 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 3: and its evolving forms, and eventually the famous trirem, which 21 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 3: had three levels of oarsmen and was the dominant weapon 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: of the navies of the Mediterranean Empires for hundreds of years. 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: We also talked about experimental modern attempts to create replicas 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 3: of ancient Greek trirems, such as the Olympias project built 25 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties, and we talked about the primary 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: battle tactics of the trirem, the main weapon of which 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: was the ram used for ramming and cracking the hull 28 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: of the opposing ships. Oh and of course, back in 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: part one, we talked about Ptolemy, the fourth of Egypt's 30 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: gigantic ancient war boat, which we are going to come 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: back to today. 32 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll come back to that one again and sort 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: of revisit it with perhaps a little more context. 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 3: Now, there's something I mentioned last time that I wanted 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: to come back to at the top of today's episode, 36 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: which is the idea of the physical remains of rams 37 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: from these ancient warships. So we talked about how the 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: physical archaeological evidence for ancient war galleys is often pretty sparse, 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 3: and so modern reconstructions have mostly had to go off 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 3: of descriptions in ancient texts and artistic representations that you 41 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: might find on a vase or something. So these ships 42 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 3: were made out of wood, and they, according to some 43 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: sources we talked about last time, they generally did not 44 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: sink when damaged in battle. They might kind of dip 45 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: in the water and become immobilized and they could be 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 3: towed away afterwards, or if they did sink, the wooden 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 3: parts mostly decomposed over time. Yeah. 48 00:02:58,040 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was reading a little bit more about 49 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: the this issue of positive buoyancy in trirems. I was 50 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: reading a bit by Mark C. Davies. Really long title 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 2: to this, but I guess I have to read the 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: whole of an investigation into the absence of ancient Greek 53 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: trirems in the archaeological record and a study of the 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: battlefield deposition at the site of the Battle of Agati's 55 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: off the Agatti Islands, to determine whether this example could 56 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: direct future exploration for evidence of ancient Greek sea battles. 57 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: M that's tight. 58 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would cut it if they'd just thrown a 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: colon in there. Anyway, This was a twenty twenty one 60 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: publication by Honor Frost Foundation. Anyway, the author here is 61 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: ultimately making the case that some trirems may have actually sunk, 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: and we should look for more particular environments where some 63 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: of the wreckage might have survived the sinking. But he 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: also outlines the predominant theory as well, that we already 65 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: touched on the trirems had positive buoyancy, particularly during battle, 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: because if you had anything heavy in there, you had 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: equipment or ballast, you'd throw that out and then when defeated, 68 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: they would not have been sunk like we've been saying, 69 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: but they would have been left flooded and floundering. Thus 70 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: they again, they tended to be dragged back to port. 71 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: They tended to be harvested for wood. But Davies, for 72 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: his part, stresses that there is disagreement about how much 73 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: equipment and or ballast a trirem would carry, so it's 74 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: not something we can be one certain on. So there 75 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: remains at least some scholarly disagreement and discussion on this matter. Right. 76 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 3: But for whatever reason, the wooden components of these boats 77 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: have rarely been preserved into the modern archaeological record. Maybe 78 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: that's due to positive buoyancy, maybe that's due to decomposition 79 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: in the water, or maybe we just failed to find 80 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: whatever's there, but for whatever reason, the wooden components are 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 3: often lost. But remember that the ram of the ancient 82 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: Trirem was usually capped with a solid metal sheath made 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: of bronze, and we do have a number of these 84 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 3: bronze rams in archaeological collections today. So I was reading 85 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 3: about one particular bronze ram from the ancient world in 86 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: a source in a book called War at Sea, A 87 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: Shipwrecked History from Antiquity to the Cold War, by James P. Delgado, 88 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 3: Oxford University Press, twenty nineteen. And the section of this 89 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 3: book I was reading concerns a ram called the Athlete ram. 90 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 3: This is a bronze ram filled with wooden timbers, which 91 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: was discovered by an archaeologist named Yehoshua Ramone in nineteen 92 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 3: eighty while he was snorkeling off the coast of a 93 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 3: town called Athlet, which is near the Israeli city of Haifa. Apparently, 94 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: nothing else of real archaeological significance was found in the bay, 95 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: so it wasn't part of a broader shipwreck that anybody found. 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: We just have the broken off ram with the bronze 97 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 3: sheath on the outside and a wooden protrusion from the 98 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 3: prow of the boat inside. After being recovered from the sea, 99 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: this object was subject to extensive study, so a few 100 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 3: things we know about it. It is thought, though this 101 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: is not certain, that the ancient warship it belonged to 102 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 3: was wrecked and then drifted close to the shore, and 103 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 3: then was broken apart and disintegrated somehow. They don't say how, 104 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: but maybe it was rocked in the waves or hit 105 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 3: against the rocks or something, but somehow it came apart. 106 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 3: So the ram, with its heavy metal sheath, sank to 107 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 3: the ocean floor, and there it was preserved, and the 108 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: rest of the boat, the wooden elements, disintegrated over time. 109 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: The ram by itself, according to Delgado, weighs about five 110 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: hundred kilograms or about eleven hundred pounds, and the bronze 111 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 3: on it is an alloy of about ninety percent copper 112 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: and ten percent ten Now I found some slightly different 113 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 3: figures about the weight I was reading about also at 114 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 3: the website of the National Maritime Museum in Haifa, where 115 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: the object is kept, and they say about its way 116 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 3: that the bronze casting is four hundred and sixty five kilograms, 117 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 3: and then together with the wood inside. When it was discovered, 118 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: it was six hundred kilograms, that's about a third of 119 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: the weight of a typical mid sized car. It originally 120 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 3: had sixteen timbers from the ship's frame protruding into the 121 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: cast bronze fitting, and those timbers were extracted by an 122 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: American nautical archaeologist and named J. Richard Stepfi. Now the 123 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: metal part of the ram is preserved at that museum, 124 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: the National Maritime Museum in Haifa, but Stephi went on 125 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: to publish important work on the Athlete Ram, which led 126 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: him to conclude that these rams and the ships that 127 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: bore them were carefully engineered to distribute the force of 128 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: an impact into the sturdy bottom of the ship's hull, 129 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: so that the ship itself could absorbed the shock of 130 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 3: a ramming impact in battle without damaging itself in the process. 131 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: There is a quote from Stephie given in this book. 132 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: That is quote, the entire bottom of the ship was 133 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: essentially the weapon, so not just the bronze ram, but 134 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: you should think of the ship itself as the weapon. 135 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: Another place, another source I was reading in the last 136 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: episode compared the try Rems hull to an arrow. It's 137 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: designed to hit and absorb the shock and deliver that 138 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 3: punch at its tip. 139 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, listeners should definitely look up images of this ram 140 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: and tr rams in general, because I think one of 141 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: the most fetching things about them is that there is 142 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: this synthesis of elegance and design. Like it is, it's 143 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: a beautiful looking artifact, but its function is clear, like 144 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: its function above everything else. That if you were to 145 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: compare it to something, you might compare it to like 146 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: a can opener, but a very elegant can opener, you know, 147 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: with some decorative flourishes. 148 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But I want to get more into 149 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: the design of the bronze part itself in just a minute. 150 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: But first I want to focus on the way the 151 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: ram fits into the battle tactics. So, as we talked 152 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: about last time, there is a delicate balance in play 153 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 3: with the idea of ramming. It seems kind of an 154 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 3: oxymoron almost, you know, the ramming and delicacy, but there 155 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 3: is actually there's a sweet spot you need to hit 156 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 3: when you are designing a ship to ram and carrying 157 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: out a ramming maneuver. And that balance that you need 158 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 3: to strike is being able to ram an enemy boat 159 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: and crack its hull, causing it to take on water 160 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: without damaging your own warship through impact stress and without 161 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: punching a hole through the enemy's hull and getting your 162 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: ram stuck, which was also bad for the attacking ship 163 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: because getting stuck means you are immobilized and vulnerable to 164 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: being hit on the on the broadside yourself. And this 165 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: ties into something we talked about in the last episode 166 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 3: that ramming speed was not necessarily top speed for these 167 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 3: galleys because ramming another ship at maximum speed was dangerous 168 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: to the attacking ship for the previously mentioned reasons. Instead, 169 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 3: you wanted to hit another ship with your prow on 170 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: their broadside within an acceptable angle of attack at just 171 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 3: the right speed. And to illustrate the forces in play 172 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: with combat based on ramming stepfi, the archaeologist used the 173 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: analogy of trying to knock down a brick wall with 174 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: a wheeled vehicle. So he said, you know, if you 175 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 3: drive a motorcycle into a brick wall at one hundred 176 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: kilometers per hour, you might knock down the bricks, but 177 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: the motorcycle itself is going to be destroyed in the process. 178 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: But if you are driving an eighteen wheeler loaded with 179 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 3: heavy cargo into a brick wall, you can limit the 180 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: risk to yourself because you only need a relatively low 181 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: speed with a vehicle that heavy. The example given is 182 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 3: like an eighteen wheeler full of cargo going at ten 183 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 3: kilometers per hour. You can knock the wall down and 184 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 3: maybe not damage your own truck too much in the process. 185 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: And of course, the reason the larger vehicle can knock 186 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 3: down the wall at a lower speed is that the 187 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 3: greater mass of the truck results in greater kinetic energy 188 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: and that's converted into force upon impact. So there was 189 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: a tradeoff with these warships. A heavier ship could do 190 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 3: more damage with a ramming attack at lower speeds. And 191 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: I remember last time, one of the books I was 192 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 3: reading had an estimate of a required ramming speed only 193 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: around two to four knots, depending on various factors like 194 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: the angle of attack, and that's between three point seven 195 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: and seven point five kilometers per hour, so it didn't 196 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: have to be going amazingly fast. But on the other hand, 197 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: a heavier ship was harder to maneuver, and so it's 198 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: harder to get behind the enemy, get to where you 199 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: need to be, and to outflank the enemy in terms 200 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: of the ramming approach. So there was an impetus to 201 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 3: make the ship lighter and more nimble so that it 202 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 3: could maneuver better in battle, but also heavier so that 203 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: it could deliver these attacks at lower speed. Now, if 204 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 3: we're thinking about a trirem or any ancient war glley 205 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 3: that executes a ramming maneuver as an arrow, of course, 206 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: a very important thing about an arrow is the arrow 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: head sort of the war head that delivers the force 208 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 3: of the attack. On one hand, if you want to 209 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: maximize your damage causing potential, you could have a ram 210 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 3: shaped like a tusk or a tooth, something that narrows 211 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: down to a point at its tip, and that of 212 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: course really concentrates your impact force over the smallest surface 213 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 3: area and would be really good at punching a hole 214 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: in enemy vessels. You would make sure that when you 215 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 3: hit them it punches through and they take on water. 216 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: But again that comes at risk to the attacking vessel. 217 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: Once again, with a spike, you're likely to punch through 218 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: and then get stuck, which means there is a good 219 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: chance you're dead as well. So the popular Greek design 220 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 3: for a bronze ram sheath was actually not a spike, 221 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: but it was shaped with three narrow horizontal fins in 222 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: a kind of rectangular box shape, and this shape delivered 223 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: the ship's punch in a relatively small surface area. A. 224 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: Delgado says that it's less than half of a square meter, 225 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: and it was especially effective at cracking the enemy ship's 226 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: planks and making it take on water without stabbing through. 227 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 3: So you have to think of this as like they're 228 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 3: kind of trying to design the perfect bronze hammer. They 229 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: want a surface texture that will deliver force, well, that 230 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: will really really concentrate that impact force and damage the 231 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 3: enemy hull but never get stuck. And for some reason, 232 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: this three find design seemed to work very well, so 233 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 3: they stuck with it for hundreds of years. 234 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I say, one can imagine a combination of 235 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: field experience at sea in battle and also perhaps some 236 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 2: harbor experiments as well, Like let's try different designs out, 237 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: Let's see which ones are going to succeed, which ones 238 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: can punch that hole without goodness stuck. 239 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it would be fascinating if we could learn the 240 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: design process, like you know what led to this particular 241 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: design that was used over and over Now There's been 242 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: some disagreement over the years about how this bronze weapon 243 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 3: was made. The fact that it is a single piece 244 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 3: of cast bronze, of course, is very important that gives 245 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: it strength for battle. You can imagine if it were 246 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 3: like two halves riveted together or something, it would be 247 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: much more likely to split and fail during an impact. 248 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: According to the National Maritime Museum, the idea was once 249 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: that it was made using the sand casting method with 250 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: a hinged mold, but more recently scholars think that it 251 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 3: was likely made using the lost wax method, which is 252 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 3: itself a fascinating process that we could talk about at length. Sometimes. 253 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 3: It's probably come up on the podcast before years ago, 254 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: but anyway, it's worth looking up videos of how the 255 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: lost wax method works. It's very interesting. Especially I found 256 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: a cool video of like a small sort of statuette 257 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: of a humanoid figure being made with a lost wax method. 258 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 3: In short, it involves making a wax replica of the 259 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: final metal item you want, and then tightly encasing that 260 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 3: within plaster or clay with these channels running out of 261 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 3: the mold, and then you pour the molten bronze into it. 262 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: The wax melts and escapes into voids created for the process, 263 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 3: and so the bronze replaces the wax mold. 264 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 2: I recall us talking about this a bit in our episode. 265 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: This is from years back on Tallos, the giant Greek automaton, 266 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: because I believe in some tellings there's this idea that 267 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: he has this kind of iCore in his body, and 268 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: there are a lot of comparisons to be made between 269 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: this supposed you know, non blood substance running through this 270 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: automaton and this method of casting something. 271 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: Oh, very interesting. It's funny that actually connects to so 272 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 3: I mentioned this this video I was watching of making 273 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: a little bronze statuette with the lost wax method. So 274 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: when they put these channels in that are you know, 275 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: the bronze is poured through and the and the wax 276 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: escapes through. It ends up looking like all these sort 277 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: of veins and pipes running out of the figure's flesh. 278 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: You know, you're making a bronze aphrodite or whatever, and 279 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: it's just got these like pipes coming out of its body. 280 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: So it looks a very steampunk and suggests some kind 281 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: of horrific automaton. But coming back to the athletic ram. 282 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: Of course, a good question is when and where does 283 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: this come from. We have a few data points here. 284 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 3: Delgado cites a date range between two four and one 285 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: sixty four BCE, and this is based mostly on a 286 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: collection of symbols encoded on the bronze ram. So it 287 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: has these designs on its symbols on the surface. What 288 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 3: would these be, Well, according to the National Maritime Museum, 289 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 3: they are first of all Poseidon's trident. Of course, Poseidon 290 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: was the Greek god of the sea and of storms 291 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 3: and earthquakes, and his trident was commonly used as a 292 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 3: metonym for his powers. Like the trident is Poseidon's power 293 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: that has some relationship to the power of the sea 294 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: or power over the sea. So you can see why 295 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: sailors might include that on a vessel for a kind 296 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: of magical protection. Second symbol is a helmet with a 297 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 3: star overhead, sort of a it's sort of a half 298 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 3: egg shape of a helmet. It's got a star over 299 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 3: the top of it. Rob I've got a close up 300 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: of this for you to see. Here. This helmet is 301 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 3: apparently a symbol of the Dioscuri, meaning the sons of Zeus. 302 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: These are the twins Castor and Pollux, who were commonly 303 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: said to wield power over storms at sea and to 304 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: give hope to shipwrecked seamen. There's some version of the 305 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 3: story where they have these like special horses given to 306 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 3: them by Poseidon that gallop over the waves and allow 307 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 3: them to rescue sailors lost at sea. 308 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. In Latin, these are the genini. 309 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 3: A third symbol is an eagle's head, and the fourth 310 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 3: symbol is the Cadusius. This is the staff of the 311 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: god Hermes, which has many meanings. We could probably come 312 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 3: back and have we ever done an episode on the 313 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 3: Cadusius before. 314 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: I don't think we have, But yeah, there's a number 315 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: of rich traditions behind it. 316 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it is a mini thing. But one of 317 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 3: the meanings of it was that it was regarded as 318 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 3: sort of the wand of the herald and symbolized diplomatic protections. 319 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: On your nautical ram. 320 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: I don't know exactly the best way to interpret it here, 321 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 3: but it might be seen as a kind of general apotropaic, 322 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: you know, a general protective symbol. But I don't know, 323 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: maybe there's something more specific at work anyway. According to 324 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 3: the National Maritime Museum, this collection of particular symbols means 325 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: the ram likely originated on the island of Cyprus between 326 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 3: the dates previously given, because the same collection of symbols 327 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: appears on coins minted in Cyprus during this period. So 328 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 3: if this is correct, the galley probably would have belonged 329 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 3: to the fleet of either Ptolemy the fifth Epiphanes or 330 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 3: Ptolemy the sixth Philometer. However, they also mentioned that radiocarbon 331 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: dating of the wood that was initially embedded inside the 332 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 3: bronze ram gave an estimate of four hundred BCE plus 333 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: or minus one hundred and thirty years, So the estimate 334 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: based the radio carbon estimate based on the wood is 335 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 3: a little bit older than the estimate based on the symbols. 336 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 2: By the way, if you're keeping score with your Ptolemy's 337 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 2: that would be Ptolemy the Glorious and Ptolemy Lover of 338 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: his Mother. 339 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: These would both be coming after the guy who made 340 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 3: the really big ship. But correct, we're coming back to 341 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: that lover of his father. Yeah. 342 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: Now. 343 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: Multiple sources have also suggested that this scalley was not 344 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 3: a trirem. Maybe it was, but some say it was 345 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 3: more likely a four banked galley. Called a tetraris or 346 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 3: a quadra reem. But then Delgado also cites another archaeologist, 347 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 3: a scholar named William Murray into quote Delgado here quote 348 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 3: analyzing the symbols and pondering how the ship came to 349 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: be lost near Athlete. Murray feels it was a smaller 350 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: warship based on the Levantine coast that may have been 351 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: lost in a storm or during an unrecorded naval skirmish 352 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: during Dynastics struggles for control of Phoenicia. But ultimately we're 353 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 3: probably never going to know with certainty where and when 354 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: exactly this ram came from or how the ship that 355 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 3: it belonged to was destroyed. But we've got some good 356 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 3: guesses here. 357 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. In one of the books that I was sourcing 358 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 2: for this series, Lionel case Ses the Ancient Mariners, he 359 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: gets into discussing this ram a bit and using it 360 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 2: to talk about using it as a data point to 361 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: try and understand exactly what naval combat consisted of in 362 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 2: like the age immediately following the dominance of the Trirem, 363 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: which we'll be getting into here in a bit. But 364 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 2: I guess one thing to keep in mind about all this, 365 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: and I guess this. I mean, this is true of 366 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: any archaeological endeavor, but they're a finite number of data points, 367 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: and a lot of the scholarship it seems to be 368 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: about like connecting all of those lines and trying to 369 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 2: sort of triangulate a problem truth based on it. 370 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 3: But of course, Rob you mentioned that there was an 371 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 3: age after the age of trirem dominance, when there when 372 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 3: the ships just kept getting more and more extra Yeah. 373 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really fascinating. You're going to see the 374 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: trirem dominance last for a while, but then the designs 375 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: begin to get bigger, and this is going to of 376 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 2: course change the way combat occurs at sea and the 377 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: way military endeavors in general are carried out in the Mediterranean. 378 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: So basically we're looking at some changes beginning to take 379 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: hold in the fourth century BCE. This would be the 380 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: development of fours, fives, and polyrems. So Brian Fagan and 381 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: Boris Rhankoff in their section on these ships in the 382 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World, they point to 383 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: Syracuse in Sicily as being the main place where this 384 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: innovation is chiefly sighted. The innovation here does not entail 385 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: the addition of a fourth and fifth level to a galley. 386 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: Though we talked previously about how it's like you start 387 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: with one level and then the next evolution is you 388 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: do two levels and then you got three levels. Well 389 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: we're not doing that anymore at this point, no fourth 390 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: and fifth levels. Historians have worked this out over time. Instead, 391 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 2: what it constitutes is more men to each or. 392 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 3: So you could still add additional rows of oarsmen, but 393 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: they're just not each getting their own or right. 394 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: And to be clear, this was not necessarily just a 395 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: matter of cramming in extra guys. As we discussed, the 396 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 2: tryream was already crammed essentially all human engine Lionel case 397 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 2: and in the ancient Mariners does state that the initial 398 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: Greek updates would have still been the same size as 399 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: tryrems with an extra rower to each or on the 400 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: upper levels. So there's not much you could do basically 401 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: down in the hole of the ship, but they did 402 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: find a way to squeeze in more people up top. 403 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 3: Now we've talked about how these boats really did not 404 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: have a lot of room for cargo. They were not 405 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 3: meant to be, you know, the vessels to stay at sea. 406 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: They were sort of out for the day, but had 407 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 3: to come ashore at night to resupply and allow the 408 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 3: crew to rest. But I was just thinking about, like, 409 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 3: you have that many people working that hard in the heat, 410 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 3: you know, operating sort of at the limits of human exertion, 411 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 3: and you would have to get water to them somehow. 412 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: So also I'm imagining that, you know, fresh water has 413 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 3: to be stored aboard so that these people can drink 414 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 3: while they're exerting themselves like this, So like that's another consideration. 415 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like by adding more people to these ships, 416 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 2: you are creating more problems. You're taking pre existing problems 417 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: and making them worse. Again, so far, we've been talking 418 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: about skilled oarsmen as well. These are not disposable resources 419 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: in some sort of scenario where these are like you know, 420 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 2: captives that have been taken by the war, They're not 421 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: seen as disposable by the people utilizing them. They are 422 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: seen as skilled labor that you have to manage and 423 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 2: hold on to. And we see this skewed a little 424 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: bit with some advancements, so Fagan and Rancoff point out 425 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: we get the quin Creams, which were still three level vessels, 426 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: but with two men to an ore on the top level. 427 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: Two to an ore in the middle, and then one 428 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 2: to an ore on that bottom level again you know, 429 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: more or less down in the hole where you can't 430 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: expand too much. So this would have meant a rowing 431 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: crew of roughly three hundred people. And of course all 432 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: this comes, all this power comes at a trade off. Well, 433 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: obviously again you have to take care of these human 434 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: beings that are powering your vessel, if for no other 435 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 2: reason out of self interest, because they are what makes 436 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: the ship. They were what makes the ship move. But 437 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 2: also by souping up the vessel like this, it wouldn't 438 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: have actually been as fast as the Trirem but the 439 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: additional enabled these ships to carry more troops as well 440 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: as ultimately the latest catapult technology. Hum. 441 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 3: Okay, so you're adding more people unless you're adding more weight, 442 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: and thus the ship becomes less nimble and maneuverable and 443 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 3: speedy in battle, but you're increasing its carrying capacity. 444 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 2: Right, And this change wouldn't have happened all at once. 445 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: Cason mentions that if we look at Greek shipyard records 446 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: in the fourth century, they indicated that the Greeks probably 447 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,719 Speaker 2: were not worried about these advancements that were going on 448 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 2: in Syracuse and shipyards. They probably kept a close eye 449 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: on such developments, but the Greek fleet of trirems was 450 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 2: still dominant in the east and they were mostly distracted 451 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: by matters in the west. Still, more and more larger 452 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 2: ships were built and were ultimately incorporated into that fleet 453 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: as time passed. So we're getting bigger vessels, and you know, 454 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: the age of the trirem of trirem dominance is kind 455 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 2: of fading out and rankoff indicate that these new ships 456 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: impacted how warfare at sea was conducted, and that quote 457 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: boarding tactics gradually came to be used alongside and even 458 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 2: instead of ramming. So ramming doesn't go away, but it's 459 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 2: kind of like everything became very ramming intensive, and then 460 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: things kind of began to diversify a little bit with 461 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 2: these bigger ships. 462 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 3: Oh okay, so the earlier naval warfare warfare tactics we 463 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: talked about were more based on boarding. Then ramming became dominant. 464 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: Then boarding becomes more important yet again, right. 465 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: Right, And so the Syracusans developed three level sixes or hexories, 466 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: and the Carthaginians developed two level fours or quadrigrims, and 467 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: this growth trend continued from the end of the fourth 468 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: century BCE onward, while some cities continued to prioritize trirems 469 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 2: or other smaller ORed vessels for rating, because I remember, 470 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: in a rating scenario, you're gonna want that flexibility, you're 471 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: gonna want the speed, and so forth. But the major 472 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: players in the metaturing and all seemed to double down 473 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 2: on massive galleys sevens, eights, nines, and tens. And this 474 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: of course required increasing number of oarsmen, but allowed the 475 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: transport of more troops, more artillery, and siege equipment like 476 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: towers and some of the biggest chunkers in this area, 477 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: they point out, were reportedly built to besiege coastal city walls. 478 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 2: So I guess you could almost think of these as 479 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: like a full mobile aquatic siege craft, you know. And 480 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: also sometimes you would utilize a big vessel like this 481 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: to break through harbor chains. 482 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: A harbor chain, is that like a defensive measure that 483 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 3: would be used in harbor? Yes, this would be a 484 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: navigational barrier. Yeah, okay. 485 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: Now, Cason writes that you would have had multiple options 486 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 2: to upsize your fleet during this growth period. You could 487 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: augment existing trirems as we've been discussing to create these 488 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: new polyrems, or you could build bigger from the bottom up, 489 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: and different powers had different capacities for these changes. One 490 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: major factor was apparently the dwindling supply of skilled rowers. Again, 491 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 2: you've got human power at the heart of this, and 492 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 2: they were increasingly in short supply and would become rather difficult. 493 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: For example, the Romans later on to source. So ships 494 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 2: were getting bigger, navies were getting bigger, but you still 495 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: needed someone to row these things. 496 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 3: Not just someone, you needed lots of people to row 497 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: these things. And it was hard work. 498 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: That's right, And they somehow managed to make it harder 499 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: in some cases, according to case And, many of these 500 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 2: larger designs called for a deeper rowing style that required 501 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: the rower to stand up to dip the blade and 502 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: then throw themselves back to pull it. So it became 503 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 2: even more physically demanding in these cases. But it also 504 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: apparently meant that only the man at the tip of 505 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: the loom needed to be skilled, so the inner oarsmen 506 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: in such a setup they could be just muscle power 507 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: following his lead, and i a power one of these 508 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: naval powers lacked for skilled oarsmen, they could potentially double 509 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: down on these new designs, so you could, yeah, we 510 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 2: only have so many skilled oarsmen to utilize. Okay, well 511 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: we can focus on spreading them around around on these 512 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: ships and then depend on just unskilled brute forced labor 513 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: to help them, and these would become the standard long 514 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: sweep galleys with multiple rowers that would apparently become the 515 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: standard in the into the sixteenth and eighteenth century CE. 516 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: In the mediterrane Now, Casein points out that this arms 517 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: race what he calls the Age of Titans. This corresponds 518 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: with the death of Alexander the Great three twenty three 519 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: BCE and the shattering of his vast empire into competing states, 520 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: including as we discussed in the first episode, Tallmac Egypt. 521 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: And my understanding is that this growth period wasn't just 522 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: about growing out of and away from the Triyream, but 523 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 2: also a kind of flexibility and the sorts of ships 524 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: that a navy might build and use. So the age 525 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: of the Trirem was one of a kind of bottleneck perfection. Again, 526 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 2: they think of him as kind of like jet fighters 527 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: and with just as much expense and skill tied up 528 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 2: in their use. And now we're dealing with an age 529 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: where ship production in naval size is only going up, 530 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: and of course something has to give, and it eventually does. 531 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: But the arms race of the Titans continued, and the 532 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: culmination of this arms race was, of course a vessel 533 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: we kicked off with in episode one, the massive Tessaranka 534 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: terraces the forty of Ptolemy the Fourth. So, just to refresh, 535 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: the Tessaranka terrace was the massive war vessel of Ptolemy 536 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: the fourth, Philopater, lover of his father. His rule lasted 537 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: from two twenty one to two o four BCE. 538 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: Now, the last time this came up, you mentioned the 539 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: opinion of historians and various experts that this this was 540 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 3: likely more of a showboat than a functional war boat. 541 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we definitely see that. One of the two 542 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: main historical accounts, and even this is, you know, centuries 543 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: after the boat would have existed, but Plutarch chimed in 544 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: and was like, this thing was more for show than anything. 545 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: It would have been dangerous to use. And it's largely 546 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: argue that like this is exactly the sort of ship 547 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: that Tallo Me the fourth would have because he had 548 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: this reputation as being more concerned with the trappings of 549 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: empire than the work of empire. You know, this was 550 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: seen as a period of decline for the Ptolemys. So 551 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: getting back into this question, is is this in fact 552 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: just a huge spruce goose on the sea. Is this 553 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: just a complete illogical vessel that with the only possible 554 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: purpose being a show of might to say, look at us. 555 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 2: It's basically a big floating parade float for the military. 556 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: Or is it something that had some degree of function. 557 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 2: So looking at what Cason has to say about it, 558 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 2: he does follow the basic logic that the Tesla Aca 559 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: Terras was either a king's plaything or a misguided experiment. 560 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: You know, how big of a war boat can we make? 561 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: But he stresses that the mere concept of a massive 562 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: twin hold catamaran war vessel, because that's what it was. 563 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: It was like a twin hold catamaran, big flat top, 564 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: kind of like an aircraft carrier for the ancient world, 565 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: the ancient Mediterranean. This mere concept wasn't out, it didn't 566 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: come out of out of nowhere. He speculates that tallow 567 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: me in the Fourth's grandfather tollow me the second, So 568 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: we know that he had a pair of thirties and 569 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: these may have also been twin hold catamaran vessels, and 570 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: he cites another likely twin holed galley one built by 571 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: another Alexander successor, and that's Lissimachus, king of Thrace. Cason 572 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: writes that these, he calls him super dreadnoughts, would have 573 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: been the flag flying command vessel of the large navies 574 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 2: in the days of the Ptolemys. One of Ptolemy the 575 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 2: first chief rivals, by the way, was Antigonus the One Eyed, 576 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: who ruled over Macedonia, and his son Demetrius, the first Poliocets, 577 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: the sieger of Cities, was in many ways the instigator 578 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: of this super galley arms race between the post Alexander states, 579 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: as his name implies, Demetrius was heavy into siege craft. 580 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: He was a total nerd for siege engines, and so 581 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: he was really into the idea of mounting them on 582 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: galleys as well. And the emphasis, curiously here seems to 583 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: have been not just about like bringing siege equipment to 584 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: a destination to lay out a siege, but also on 585 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 2: ship to ship warfare and genua. Yeah, so you would 586 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: actually have these ships firing at each other, needing to 587 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 2: carry the weight of these catapults and these towers. You know, 588 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: so you can have you know, the height advantage, but 589 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 2: potentially and you would need bigger ships with presumably wider 590 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: decks to make this possible. M and so the twin 591 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 2: holed catamaran design would be what they ended up exploiting. 592 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 2: Like you can how wide can you conceivably make the hole? Well, okay, 593 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 2: you can do you can, I guess conceive when we 594 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 2: make it this wide? Or you could just have two 595 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: holes and you could have a deck covering both of them. 596 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: Everyone knows what a camaran is. I assume if if not, 597 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 2: go out to your local lake and look for the 598 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: lounge craft of the pontoon boats, and you get the 599 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: basic idea. 600 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, two holes in the water situated in parallel, 601 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 3: and there there's some kind of decks spanning between them. 602 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: So Cason has this wonderful paragraph I want to read 603 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: where he talks about what these encounters might have been 604 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: Like he writes, artillery and bigger ships naturally had their 605 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: effect on naval tactics and sea battles were different in 606 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 2: this age from what they had been a century earlier. 607 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 2: They still took place near shore. Super Galley was even 608 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 2: harder to keep it sea than a tryrem. But a 609 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: fight now opened with a heavy barrage from catapults and bowmen. 610 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 2: Lighter craft, trirems and quadrarine still maneuvered for position and 611 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: the chance for an effective blow with the ram, but 612 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: larger units, all of which had massive reinforced snouts, were 613 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 2: not afraid to meet each other prow to prow, and 614 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: this often resulted in close packed meles in which the 615 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 2: marines on the decks hurling javelins are thrusting with special 616 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: long spears. Decided the issue. To aid in this sort 617 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: of fighting, turrets were added to the ship's armament. These 618 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 2: were movable, wooden affairs that could be quickly set up 619 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 2: at bow and stern when a vessel went into action, 620 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 2: and their height gave sharpshooters a chance to fire down 621 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 2: on the enemy's decks. 622 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 3: It is crazy trying to picture this. Has this ever 623 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 3: been depicted in a movie? 624 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like it would be quite a 625 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: spectacle to try and pull this off, right. You'd need 626 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 2: kind of have to build these vessels, right, or at 627 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 2: least you would have in sort of like the Golden 628 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 2: Age centem I guess you could do it. Obviously, you 629 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 2: could do it differently with CGI now, I guess you 630 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: could make use of models, but I don't know that 631 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: I've ever seen a film that really captures this idea. 632 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 2: Like we talked about how we had battles at sea 633 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: essentially being like battles on land, except on boats, and 634 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 2: then we get into the age of sort of dog 635 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: fighting trirems, and now we're kind of back to an 636 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 2: even to a combination of both, but an even more 637 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: exaggerated feeling of some sort of a land battle happening 638 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 2: out on the water with towers and so forth. 639 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, except you can't run away, can you. Yeah? 640 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So of course this was all terribly expensive, obviously, 641 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: And coming back to Ptolemy the Fourth Monstrosity again, Cason 642 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: seems to hold to the idea that the Tessaronka Terras 643 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 2: was either all for show or a failed project, but 644 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 2: he stresses that it's mostly only through descriptions of it 645 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 2: that we can make any informed hypotheses about the form 646 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 2: of the other super galleys that preceded it. So I 647 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: suppose one could imagine possible examples of this from far 648 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: more recent history, like what if you only had the 649 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 2: spruce goose to try and understand what functional airplanes looked 650 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 2: like in the years leading up to it, that sort 651 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: of thing. But I think this is also interesting because 652 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: it kind of potentially puts the Tessaronka Terris in context. 653 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 2: It's not like an outrageous design perhaps that comes out 654 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 2: of nowhere, but like the grotesque leveling up of a 655 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: design that was already functional. 656 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 3: Oh okay, that makes sense. 657 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 2: Now, I'm in the first episode I mentioned another source. 658 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 2: The Tessaronka Terras reconsidered by Christopher E. Choffen. This is 659 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 2: from the Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies in 660 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. He follows up on a lot of 661 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 2: the ideas explored by Casin and cites his scholarship in 662 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 2: the idea that it was a continuation of a design 663 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 2: that was employed to provide stability for larger payloads and 664 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 2: or catapults. He stresses, however, that we don't really have 665 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 2: much that is comparable to it. So catamarans have been 666 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: used and are still used around the world, but not 667 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 2: giant war galleys like this. And again, even though we 668 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 2: have reconstructed a hypothetical trirem nobody has attempted to, as 669 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: far as I know, to reconstruct the Tessaronka terrace. It's 670 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 2: just too big, And obviously, I think you can make 671 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 2: a strong case that the efforts involved would be more 672 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: useful elsewhere in the pursuit of our understanding of ancient 673 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 2: nautical engineering and practices. But he stresses that, Okay, the 674 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: ship was clearly very expensive, and it would have required 675 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,919 Speaker 2: a lot of skilled labor to operate. But we might 676 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 2: see it as a practical warship in addition to a 677 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 2: flagship to celebrate or insist upon the naval might of 678 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,439 Speaker 2: Ptolemy the Fourth, but one still at the very edge 679 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 2: of what was deemed effective and necessary in a time 680 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 2: of almost delear competition over ship size, and it would 681 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 2: certainly become a white elephant, he says during the following 682 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: age of decline. So I don't know. I feel like 683 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 2: I'm obviously I'm no expert on this, and I bow 684 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 2: to the experts who have written on this topic over 685 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 2: the years and continue to write about it. So I 686 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 2: don't know if Chafin is pushing too far into the 687 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 2: possibility that it was a practical warship. I do still 688 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: like the idea of seeing it not as this grotesque 689 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 2: monster that comes out of nowhere, but it is the 690 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 2: final known extension of a technological evolution that favored super 691 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 2: galleys for a while. And you know, this is kind 692 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 2: of like the evolutionary dead end for that particular growth pattern. Yeah, 693 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 2: now I want to touch briefly on sort of like 694 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: the end of the age of the galley. And again 695 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 2: we're dealing with ultimately a long trajectory of history here, 696 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 2: and you see various things survive and so forth. But 697 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 2: Fagan and Rankoff stress that by the latter part of 698 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: the second century BCE, the age of the polyren was over. 699 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: So Rome's first major fleet, constructed during the First Punic War, 700 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 2: that's against the Carthage, was based largely on copying wreckage 701 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 2: of a Carthaginian five, and they also used some larger ships, 702 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 2: but mainly depended on fives. They write that by the 703 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 2: first century CE, the quote mostly unemployed imperial fleet consisted 704 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 2: of fives, fours, and threes and even smaller two level vessels, 705 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 2: and the bigger vessels well, based on descriptions, the bigger 706 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 2: vessels depended on a single level of rowers above the deck, 707 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 2: and it seems that in time, the secret of the 708 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: trirem and other three level ships was just simply lost. 709 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: The last report of trirems being used occurs during the 710 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: Roman Civil War of three twenty four C, and by 711 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 2: the fifth century CE, Greek historian Zosimus tells us that 712 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: the art of building them was just truly lost, so 713 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 2: nobody knew how to build a triorem anymore. We seem 714 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: seemingly we didn't have any examples of them in full anymore, 715 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 2: and it's left for us as an enduring mystery for 716 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 2: centuries and centuries to come. But I guess one of 717 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 2: the crazy parts about all of this is that we 718 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: could conceivably change at any moment. I mean, people continue 719 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 2: to keep a lookout for for this sort of thing. 720 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 2: Uh uh. Marine Maritime archaeology has had tremendous technological strides 721 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: over the years and even in recent years, so it's 722 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 2: not impossible that we will find more evidence of trirens 723 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 2: and have just some new evidence to introduce into that 724 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 2: that limited data set to try and figure out exactly 725 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 2: what everything consisted of. 726 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 3: I hope we do. I mean, reading about these hypothetical 727 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 3: reconstructions is really interesting. I would love to ride in 728 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 3: one of them. 729 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 2: Ride or you're gonna you're gonna be down below. 730 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 3: Not a lot of room for riders. I guess you 731 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 3: gotta help, right, Yeah, so yeah, I'd. 732 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: Do some rowing. Yeah it's drumming. I guess somebody needs 733 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 2: to beat the trump. Yeah. 734 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 3: I'm more of a navigator myself. 735 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. So we'll have to get into this in some 736 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 2: listener mail, but we have already heard from some people 737 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 2: with rowing experience, and so if we have other oars 738 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 2: menality there that would like to chime in on any 739 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 2: of this, we'd love to hear from you. And I 740 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 2: mean certainly if you've ever actually been aboard the one 741 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,360 Speaker 2: reconstruction that we have of a Trirem and help power it, 742 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 2: that would be great. I feel like that's slim possibility, 743 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 2: but just in case, putting the call out there for 744 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 2: that also right in with any examples of Trirem warfare 745 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 2: and games and films and so forth. I was looking around, 746 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 2: and I should have thought of this earlier, but some 747 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: of the warships space vessels in Warhammer forty thousand have 748 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 2: this kind of ram looking structure on the bottom of them, 749 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,799 Speaker 2: like they clearly kind of pas earn the design a 750 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 2: little bit after Trirems, and not unsurprisingly, it looks like 751 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 2: there are rules for these ships ramming each other in 752 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 2: like the old Battlefleet Gothic game and so forth. So 753 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 2: that would make sense when you have a game. 754 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: That is. 755 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,879 Speaker 2: Set in a far future, but a lot of it 756 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 2: is sort of patterned after medieval and or ancient warfare. 757 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,439 Speaker 2: And we did have a listener writing with some Star 758 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 2: Trek examples, but we'll have to save that for the 759 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 2: listener mail. All right, Well, this has been fun. Just 760 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,359 Speaker 2: a reminder to everyone out there that Stuff to Blow 761 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 2: Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast. Core 762 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 2: episodes in Tuesdays and Thursday, short form episode on Wednesdays, 763 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 2: and then on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns 764 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,760 Speaker 2: to just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 765 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 3: Huge things, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 766 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 767 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 768 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 769 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your 770 00:44:54,080 --> 00:45:02,520 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 771 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 772 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 773 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.