1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: i T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: T dot com put Knowledge to Work. Hello and welcome 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: to another edition of the podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway, executive 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: editor at Bloomberg Markets, and I'm Joe Wisenthal, Managing editor 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Markets. Joe, this is a special special episode of 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: the podcast. Uh, it's special because we're not on it right. Yeah, 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: it's extra special because we've edited ourselves out. Now we 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: are going to be playing an interview today that Bloomberg 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: View columnist Matt Levine, and a friend of this podcast, 13 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: as you know, has done with Brad katsu Yama. He 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: is the co founder and CEO of an exchange that 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: I think we've all heard of. It's called I e X. Uh. 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: You might remember it from such movies as Michael Lewis's movies, 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: such books as Michael Lewis's Flashboys. Right, this was the 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: exchange because there's been all this anxiety about high frequency 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: trading exactly. So Flashboys is about the evils of high 20 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: frequency trading and how they're messing up markets. Um. There 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: were some examples in there that some people took issue with, 22 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: but basically, high frequency trading is the villain of flashboys. 23 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: Certainly a lot of politicians and regulators seemed to be 24 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: on board with that view. And then we had I 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: e X that sprang forth from this guy called Brad 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: katsu Yama, and I X was basically the antithesis of 27 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: high frequency trading. They kind of install speed bumps to 28 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: prevent people from doing that, and they're supposed to be 29 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: a different way of trading, a better way of trading. 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: And I mean, the book is worth reading. I don't 31 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: know if you've read it, um, but what's definitely worth 32 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: listening to is this interview. Great, well, this is an interview. 33 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: It's associated with the November six edition of Bloomberg Market magazine, 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: and uh, I hope everyone enjoys it. There's sort of 35 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: an origin story for you were traded at RBC almost 36 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: ten years ago. You noticed that there was that, you know, 37 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: you try to buy a hundred thousand shares, you can 38 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: only get them. You're wondering what was up. I thought 39 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: it was a software problem. Eventually figured out that it 40 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: was a sort of issue with the structure, with the 41 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: deep structure of the stock exchanges. So you built the 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: thing at RBC that would help your clients avoid that 43 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: and get the full hundred thousand shares. Then you're like, l, 44 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: we can do this more broadly, and so you built 45 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: the trading venue called i X that did the same 46 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: thing that you You coiled wire in a shoe box 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: so that when people sent you an order for a 48 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: hundred thousand shares and you had twenty five thousand, you'd 49 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: give them the twenty five and before you told anyone 50 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: else about this, you would run to the other exchanges 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: and get the other seventy thousand that were displayed and 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: give people the full size of their order. And that 53 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: was kind of like the origin story of i X 54 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: that's told in Flashboys. It's sort of a plot of Flashboys. 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: I've seen you tell it on stage, and now that 56 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: you've become a stock exchange, it occurs to me that 57 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: story is not quite true anymore. Right, Like the thing 58 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: that is the sort of basis of the origin story 59 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: is this router that skips the speed bumper, that that 60 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: allows people to get all the shares before the high 61 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: prequoncent trators learn about it and can raise ahead of them, 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: and as part of the sec process you had to 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: take that out. So I want to hear like just 64 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: kind of what what your thought presses on that was 65 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: liked you miss it was ever a moment and you said, 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: we'd rather not be in exchange than do this. Part 67 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: of the story was that we realized that when we 68 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: were trying to buy or sell stock across the broader 69 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: market that executions, that the venues that we got to 70 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: first would lead to fading of liquidity or trading ahead 71 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: at other venues. And so we originally started i X 72 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: under the premise that we would be this router for 73 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: clients that wanted to trade through. Any broker could send 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: a rottable order to to i X and we could 75 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: get that order out to the market. And that was 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: the original premise that we started with UM and thank goodness, 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of it evolves because we're we're only we're routing 78 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: I think forty to fifty million shares a day, we're 79 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: matching ten million shares of that on our own market, 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: which means that if that was our only premise, we 81 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: would be doing a very small amount of volume on 82 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: I X and sending a lot of volume elsewhere. And 83 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: I think the way that UM the concept evolved was 84 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: to say or ask the question, well, why does why 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: can someone get a signal from one place and get 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: to the next UM. And it really came down to 87 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: co location and this idea that UM people could pay 88 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: to put their servers as close as possible to the exchanges, 89 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: UM get fast information and now with microwave connectivity, etcetera, 90 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: can beam orders to other markets faster than people that 91 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: are traveling through cable or people that don't have the 92 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: same level of sophistication or have paid for the same 93 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: level of access and UM. So when we thought about it, 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: you know, RBC as a broker could only solve a 95 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: very narrow part of the problem, and the problem was 96 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: broader because not only for orders that were routed, what 97 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: about orders that are resting on the exchange, or what 98 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: about orders that are pegged on exchanges? How are those 99 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: orders treated when there is this huge kind of disparity 100 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: between who knows what when, And that evolved into things 101 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: such as you know, discretionary PEG and midpoint PEG and 102 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: basically the evolvement of the speed bumps so UM, I 103 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: think if we had stayed as focused only on the router, 104 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if I X would have made it 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: because because the router became secondary to our operation as 106 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: as a market and so you don't missed the former 107 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: structure of the router. The benefit and I guess the 108 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: slight change now is the fact that the router trades 109 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: a little bit less on I X because the router 110 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: doesn't know there are certain orders that are displayed and 111 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: their certain orders that are not displayed and then not displayed. 112 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: Non displayed orders aren't being broadcast to the router because 113 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: that would create an unfair advantage, even though that advantage 114 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: exists for certain exchanges. Today hopefully that gets addressed. But 115 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, from our standpoint, so it trades slightly less 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: on A X. So I guess that's that's a small change, 117 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: But the customer experience doesn't change. So I think that's 118 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: that for us was most important. So can I ask 119 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: you like the customer experience? So I said, the origin story, 120 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: the story that you tell on stage is this thing 121 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: about the kind of the routing. Um, the customers on 122 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: I X, the people that you talked to who are 123 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: like you know, owners who are the sort of ultimate customers. 124 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: What is important to them? Like is it is it 125 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: kind of this fill rate on routable orders? Like what 126 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: are they kind of what do they think that is 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: your vantage versus other exchanges? I think most important to 128 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: them is they feel like we've represent their interests. I 129 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: think they've they've What does that mean? It means that 130 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: the market has evolved in a way where they were 131 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: kind of in a position to be the last to know, 132 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: I mean clients, since clients can't be members of exchanges, 133 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: meaning that a broker is a member. The client has 134 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: to route in order through a broker member to get 135 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: the exchange they're they're kind of, you know, just by 136 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: that relationship on the outside looking in. And as a 137 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: result a lot of these things that evolved over the 138 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: last decade um, we earned a lot of credibility when 139 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: we were at RBC going out there and meeting with 140 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: these customers saying here's what's really happening, here's here's an 141 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: explanation for this experience you're having when you can't buy 142 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: or sell what you see. That level of trust parlays 143 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: into us as an exchange, saying here are the things 144 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: that you should be focused on. Here are the things 145 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: that we think are important. Here the ways that we're different. Um, 146 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: So I think it starts first and foremost with that. 147 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: So for a customer, would you say that they use 148 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: I X for kind of more the the specific structural 149 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: like we have d Paget partically answer this crumbling quote, 150 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: or would you say that it's more a kind of 151 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: general sense of These are the guys who explain stuff 152 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: to us. These are the guys we trust, These are 153 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: the guys who have kind of more transparency on fees 154 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: or whatever. Like is it about you or is it 155 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: about Deepeg? I think I think it depends. Um. You know, 156 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: we work a lot with by side clients who are 157 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: just as sophisticated as we are, who do a huge 158 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: amount of analysis, and they actually teach us a lot 159 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: about the market and so so they are very specifically 160 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: using us for a particular reason. Um. Some others that 161 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: let's say, haven't dove that deep into market structure turned 162 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: around and said, you know what, you did the right 163 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: thing for us at OURBC. You did the right thing 164 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: for us as as an a t S. We trust you, 165 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: we believe you, and and you have a sophisticated following. 166 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: It depends. I don't think everyone's as sophisticated as um, 167 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, as as some of the by side shops, 168 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: nor can they because they don't have the resources. But 169 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: I think in general, um, you know, we have a 170 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: we have a good group of of of supporters. Um. 171 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: Some based on data, some based don trust. But we 172 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: like the fact that we have very sophisticated supporters. I 173 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: gonna tell you a little bit more about kind of 174 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: like the origin story flashblay stuff, just because like you 175 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: are the hero of Michael Lewis book, which is an 176 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: unusual situation for for anyone in finance to find themselves 177 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: on one question that I kind of asked, is Michael 178 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: Lewis for for a generation on Wall Street created this 179 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: um or like popularized this notion that equity traders are dopes, 180 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: right like equities in Dallas became a famous insult after 181 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: a Liars Poker. Um, did you ever talk about that 182 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: with him? I don't think so. No. I knew that 183 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: I had read that. Well. It's funny. When I first 184 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: started the business, the first book I was told to 185 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: read was Liars Poker, and I was I was starting 186 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: on the equities trading desk, and I remember specific equities 187 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: and tells. I was like, wow, okay, well you know 188 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: I saw that as an opportunity. Um, but no, I don't. 189 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: I don't recall us ever talking about that. Was it 190 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: strange too? I mean, he is not just that, but 191 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: like he's kind of created the mindset, He's created the 192 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: way that a lot of Wall Street thing about Wall 193 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: Street for a generation. And you were kind of telling 194 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: him how Wall Street works. Was that like a strange 195 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: experience to be like, no, no, Michael, you have it 196 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: all wrong. Well, the the Moneyball was was a huge 197 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 1: kind of influential book for me. I mean, starting at 198 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: the role Bank of Canada back in two thousand and two, 199 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, we needed to find ways to to be 200 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: different with you know, without the same resources as the 201 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: biggest banks out there. And so I read Moneyball and 202 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 1: that I felt like that had a pretty big influence 203 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: on on the way we thought. You know. The discussion 204 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: with Michael started with really helping him write a story 205 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: about somebody else he he um had stumbled on the 206 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: story of Sergey Alannakov, who got who got thrown in 207 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: prison for taking computer code, and I went to a 208 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: couple of people characters in the big short who I know, 209 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: And so really the first the first few months was 210 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: really just giving him background and saying he'd ask a question, 211 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: what is this, and I you know, we tried our 212 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: best to kind of answer it, and that evolved into 213 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: him getting to understand and know our story a little 214 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: bit more so in many ways, it's it's you know, 215 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: we were telling him the same things that we had 216 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: been talking to the by side about for a long time, 217 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: and there was a decision point where we had decide 218 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: whether we were going to talk about us or not. 219 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: Giving him back around and writ a story about somebody 220 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: else is very different than give talking to him about 221 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: you and in your life and your decisions. And at 222 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: the time it's it's there was a bit of a conflict. 223 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: The personal side of me was a little bit more reserved, 224 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: and I had to like really kind of talk it 225 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: through with my wife and say, is this something that 226 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: you know, we really want to do. But as the 227 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: CEO of i X, which was you know, brand new, 228 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: we hadn't launched, it was there's all and and really 229 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: it's a it's a very complicated subject and and he's 230 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: someone that can tell that in a different type of 231 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: way as the CEO of I X. It was a 232 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: no brainer when you sort of first started talking about 233 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: I X specifically, did you think, Wow, this is a 234 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis story or did you think we just you know, 235 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: we run some were on the stock venue like we 236 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: had been told for a while that this is a 237 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 1: Michael Lewis story. Did I Did I necessary believe that 238 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: I I could be the main character one? Probably not. 239 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: And it's funny because one of the things he told 240 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: me kind of in the middle of his research, He's like, 241 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: you're fairly bored person. It's kind of it's hard to 242 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: you basically said, it's hard to make you jump off 243 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: the page. So and I suggested that I asked you, 244 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: could you be where you are today without Flashboys? And 245 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: I kind of I wanted to the answer it sounds 246 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you seem do you think you're very lucky 247 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: that that had happened. I kind of want to want 248 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: to ask the opposite question, which is like, you know, 249 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: there you were, you had by side clients, you had 250 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of a business going, and I mean, you tell me, 251 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: but it seems like it would have worked without Flash Boys. 252 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: At least in some commercial way. Has kind of going 253 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: so big and so pop culture has that put pressures 254 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: on you that make it harder as it spread you 255 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: too thin or made things too controversial. Like has there 256 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: been a downside of the book? There have been upsides 257 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: and downsides, and but I do think the upsides far 258 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: out way the downsides. You know. The upsides were the 259 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: story had much greater reach than Ronan and I could 260 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: have ever gotten going door to door. Um, So I 261 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: think that on that front that was that was important. 262 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: And it's important not not to be an a T 263 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: S or like a mid sized A T S. You 264 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: didn't need that, but to really kind of be in 265 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: exchange and kind of try to take this to the 266 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: next level. I think I think that was critically important. 267 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: You know. The downside was that it upset a lot 268 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: of people, and and we made the decision early on 269 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: we wanted brokers to be our our members and and 270 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: our customers, which was hard because the by side was 271 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: our was our strongest relationships were sticking the broker in 272 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: between and Flashboys upset a lot of people. So we 273 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: had to try to say, listen, what we're not going 274 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: to back away from what we said, But we do 275 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: think there's a there's a way forward here for us 276 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: all to kind of work together. And you know, it 277 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: worked in some cases. In some cases, I'm sure you 278 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: know some people are still upset. But if I were 279 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: away the pros and cons, I'd say it's it's absolutely helped. 280 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c 281 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: i T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i 282 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, using and treasury management services for 283 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i 284 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: T dot com put knowledge to work. So you're now 285 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: in exchange, you have been for like a month. What 286 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: does it look like for you to win? Like what's 287 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: the end game? And I guess like what I mean 288 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: by that is like there's one model that is like 289 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: there are different types of participants in the market. Some 290 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: of them think that your model favors them, is good 291 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: for them, and so they come to you. Others think 292 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: that bats are nice here and as das model is 293 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: better for them to go to them. There's a there's 294 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: just sort of like a market segmentation. There's room for 295 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of different approaches and a bunch of different 296 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: exchanges that kind of cater slightly to different investor types. 297 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: And the other way to think about it is you 298 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: need to kill everyone that you have the right model, 299 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: everyone else has the wrong model. So like what's the 300 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: right way to look at it? And like what what 301 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: success looked like to you? So it it's hard for 302 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: us to try to say a specific market share goal 303 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: is what we want to do because a lot of 304 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: the decisions that we make, I mean, we trade less volume. 305 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: So deep peg is about preventing trades from happening. UM 306 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: the speed bump deterred some type of some types of activities. 307 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: Not paying rebates as an exchange is a huge differentiator, 308 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: and we think it's benefit to I X and it's 309 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: a benefit to to kind of the investors and brokers 310 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: that we're trying to cater to UM. But not paying 311 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: someone for an order to send you an order when 312 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of other exchanges are doing that, there's there's 313 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: a disincentive there. I think if you're paying rebates would 314 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: be a lot more of the volume. So we try 315 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: not to set market share targets. UM. We try to 316 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: focus mostly on is the data kind of showing our 317 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: third parties, you know, are the brokers happy with their execution, 318 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: and it's really kind of an education process. You know. 319 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: The rebate is such a huge short term incentive. You 320 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: have to have a very strong sales pitch to get 321 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: someone to change their behavior to come to a market 322 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: that won't pay you to come to come there. So 323 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: I think for us, it's it's a longer sales cycle. 324 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: You know, in many ways, if I were, if I 325 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: were to really drop the hammer and say we have 326 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: to get to X present by this time, people internally 327 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: at I X would probably start making different decisions. And 328 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: I think that that's something that we don't want to do. 329 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: It's we don't have a revenue target, we don't have 330 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: a market share target. We care mostly about the experience 331 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: on on our market. It's interesting because you're you're sort 332 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: of um, you're not choosing one or the other of 333 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: what I said. On the one hand, like it sounds 334 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: like you don't have any near term goal to be 335 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: of the market, right do You are happy to have 336 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: a ecosystem of different competitors, but then there encounter as 337 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: a win when your competitors kind of moved towards your approach. 338 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: You do think that you're doing at least some things 339 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the right way, and there's only one right way, and 340 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: you're moving the whole market to your way. Well, it 341 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: depends on whose perspective you view the right way. So 342 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: they the exchanges clearly have set their trading models up 343 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: to sell latency and to basically provide certain advantages for 344 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: people that want to pay for them. Caters do a 345 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: certain class of the market, and we're trying to do 346 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: something almost the exact opposite, where we're created universal speed 347 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: bump and there's one way in and one way out. 348 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: Do we think we're serving the most critical player in 349 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: the market. We do, because at the end of the day, 350 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: the stock market was built to serve long term investors 351 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: and help them invest in companies. Um. But does that 352 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: mean that everyone should have to serve that one constituent. 353 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: That's no, because that that's what makes for competitions. Can 354 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: we talk about some of the other speed bumps? Sure? 355 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: The one I think is maybe most maybe the most interesting, 356 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: is the Chicago one, because you know, again I go 357 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: back to the origin story of I X more than 358 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: like the kind of exact present structure, which is this 359 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: notion that you want to get all the volume that's 360 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: listed in the market you send, you find a way 361 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: to send out an order such that you get every 362 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: piece of displayed liquidity. The Chicago speed bump Chicago saks change. 363 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: What they've done is created a speed bump that applies 364 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: only to incoming liquidity taking orders, which means effect that 365 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: market makers on Chicago have a last look. They can 366 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: put up an order, and when a new order comes 367 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: in to take their liquidity, they get a few microseconds 368 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: or whatever to decide whether or not they want to 369 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: pull their order. So it's sort of the opposite of 370 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: the story that is told in flash plays. What do 371 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: you think about that? So, so it's what they're trying 372 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: to do is actually very similar to what Nasdac I 373 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: think proposed a few years ago. Um and I think 374 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: when Nazac proposed it, it was a five millisecond um 375 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: speed bump as opposed to three or fifty, which is 376 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: an eternity of it, right. So, so I think it'll 377 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: be interesting to see how the SEC handles it, because 378 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's an asymmetrical application of latency, so 379 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: which which means that it slowing down certain parties and 380 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: not others. I think I think we'll create a bit 381 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,959 Speaker 1: of a challenge. I think that one thing that happens 382 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: is that people customers come to exchanges and say, hey, 383 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: this would be a good idea. And I think like 384 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: a year or two ago, you'd read news articles about 385 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: that dialogue and there would be a certain level of 386 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: suspicion because the customers coming to the exchanges would generally 387 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: be high frequency traders, and everyone would say there's a 388 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: new order type on an exchange. That probably means that 389 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: it's a high frequency trader coming to game the exchange 390 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: or to pick off other people. One do you think 391 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: that's true? And too as your as your kind of 392 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: view on that change, as you've run an A T 393 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: S and then an exchange and had customers come to 394 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: you and talk to you about new order types, and yeah, 395 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: I think it's true that customers are trying to get 396 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: markets to do things that would help them. I think 397 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: that's natural. There's a certain level of influence that customers 398 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: are going to have in the bigger the customer, the 399 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: greater the influence. I think that that's perfect. You know 400 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: that that's that It probably exists in most business cultures. Um, 401 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: you know what the exchange does with that information, I 402 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: think is something that's completely different. You know, we of 403 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: the order types or change that we discuss, we don't 404 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: implement um because we'll find edge cases, or we'll find 405 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: things where okay, well that's not gonna work, well that 406 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: that will never get approved, or you know, this has 407 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: some unintended consequence that we didn't think about. So part 408 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: of you know, the reason you know we have such 409 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: a good group is it's very diverse. There's people from 410 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: New York and NAZDAC, from high Speed Traders. We just 411 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: added our chief strategy officers as guy Eric Stockland, who 412 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: came from get Go or k CG. Now, in his perspective, 413 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: he's teaching us things every day. He's got an incredible perspective, 414 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: but you know he's looking at the world through a 415 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: lens that helps us understand, okay, well if we did this, 416 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: then here's here's the result of that. So most of 417 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: the things that we talk about internally never see the 418 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: light of day. And I think because we want to 419 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: ensure that each thing we we roll out has has 420 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: a pretty universal utility UM and and in and in 421 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: many cases, if if anyone is upset with this particular 422 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: order uh, type or change. It's it's kind of a 423 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: very narrow section of of of part participant. It's it's 424 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: really trying to look to change things for for with 425 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: the greatest possible utility. But do I think customers are 426 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: trying to influence outcomes? Of course, I absolutely. I think 427 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: to think otherwise would you have more simpathy for your 428 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: competitors there after, I don't think people set out, having 429 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: talked to people that worked at some of these firms, 430 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: they set out to really end up where they are. 431 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: I think you put one foot in front of the 432 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: other and some and and you know, this kind of 433 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: wake up call comes and you pop up and you 434 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: say where am I? You know what? How how do 435 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: we get here? And I think I don't So I 436 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: don't think it was it was this massive chess match 437 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: where they saw every move coming and played it the 438 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: way it is. I think it was part of it 439 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: was a reaction, you know. I think I think bats 440 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: had a tremendous influence on New York and Nazadac and 441 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: I think that you know, competitively, they started to kind 442 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: of chase different types of revenue streams and um now 443 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: ended up where they ended up, and and so I think, 444 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: do I have sympathy for them? I don't, But but 445 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: do do I think it was it was part of 446 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: this massive plan that's unfolded for the last decade exactly 447 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: how they thought. Probably not how are you going to 448 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: avoid ending up in ten years somewhere very different from 449 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: where you want to be? Like, what's what's your check 450 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: on that? Oh? I think I mean a big check 451 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: on that? Is is really how you know, how I 452 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: X was formed in who we've been supported by, and 453 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: I think our number one asset is the relationships and 454 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: trust we have with the by side. I think if 455 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: we lose that, we lose a lot of credibility and 456 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: it becomes harder to do what we want to do. 457 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: Were driven and motivated in a different way. It took 458 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: us nine and a half months to raise the money 459 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: we needed to um and that was Those were like 460 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: pretty tough moments, but you know, deep kind of in 461 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: our hearts, we knew that we had to be owned 462 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: by the by side to to give us number one. 463 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: We wanted to be neutral. We wanted the by side 464 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: to own us, and we wanted the Cell side to 465 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: be our members, and we wanted to try to align 466 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: them in a way that was unique. You know, I 467 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: do think that our relationship with the by side is 468 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: just something that we're not willing to sacrifice for some money. 469 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: I think it would be a very bad short term 470 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: as day. So I don't get back to something you 471 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: said about the diversity of your team coming from exchanges 472 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: and higher concentrators. Is there do you notice like philosophical 473 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: differences do people say, you know, do you say this 474 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: is wrong? And people say, no, that's we do that 475 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: all the time. That's fine because there there are there 476 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: different perspectives that that surprise you. Yeah, there are certainly 477 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: different perspectives, you know, And and so that's that's been 478 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: kind of what's been great. And I think you know, 479 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: even you know, John Ramsey came from the SEC and 480 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: and so there's all sorts of different perspectives. We tend 481 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: to be very collaborative in terms of like big decisions, 482 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's and we don't always agree on everything. 483 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: Is there an example of like a fight that like 484 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: you and your kind of guys from like the RBC 485 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: world just philosophically think one thing. And the guys who 486 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: come to you from exchanges are high for concentrators, or 487 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: whatever like no, no, no, you're you have it all wrong. 488 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 1: You're you're not not like a factial question, but like, 489 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, a sort of philosophy question. What's right question? 490 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: I'll give you one interesting one. So as the as 491 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: the the application process escalated, and you know, we were 492 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: doing our best to answer, you know, and address the 493 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: questions through the comment period and then the exchanges and 494 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: others took it kind of to the media with pretty 495 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: sensational language and started to kind of shape the conversation 496 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: and you know, the un American and these types of 497 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: things came out, and so we we felt like we 498 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: needed to respond in an equally strong way and and 499 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: I think that created a bit of of uh, you 500 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: know internally to say, why don't we just keep going 501 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: the process that we're going, you know, we'll win on 502 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: merit and other people are like, no, no, we have 503 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: to amp this up because we're we're losing. We're we're 504 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: playing one game and they're playing another game. And I 505 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: think so things like that that would say that like 506 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: you started that game with flash, well yeah, so so yes, 507 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: I guess if you wanted to roll, if you wanted 508 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: to roll and talk about um. But but again we 509 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: so we have debates internally a lot. You know, I 510 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: had written like six op eds over that application process. 511 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: None of them ever got published. I've I've written one, 512 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: one's got I've written many, but one has gotten I've 513 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: got one through my team and and and you know, 514 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 1: I'm thankful to the team. You know, I was, I 515 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: was trained as a trader. Something happens and I and 516 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: I react, and I'm I'm learning to be patient, and 517 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: I'm thankful for to to the team for not you know, 518 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: because once you get in this this habit of responding 519 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: to everything, you almost have to keep that up. Whereas 520 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: if you if you're smarter and more strategic about how 521 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: you respond and how you engage, it actually lets us 522 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: focus on the most important thing, which is running the company. 523 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: So so yeah, so there are you know the best 524 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 1: part about I X as were aligned at the at 525 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: the highest levels, and that helps us sort out, you know, 526 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: any disagreements we have at at you know, any levels 527 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: lower than that. But in general, it's been you know, 528 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: I've learned, I've learned more from the people inside the 529 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: walls at I X and I have kind of ever, 530 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: I've learned more since you know we started, I X, 531 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: I've learned more about marcut structure and then I think 532 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: I did before, mostly because I'm getting all these different 533 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: perspectives your stock exchange. You're also like a famous guy. 534 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: You're like Michael Lewis here, you're sort of a voice 535 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: on some issues around like the fairness of Wall Street 536 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: and like these big questions. My first questions like what's 537 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: the next from a business perspective, and you tell me. 538 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: But one obvious thing is listings, like what's coming on there. 539 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: So one of the benefits of Flashboys was that it 540 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: got the market structure story to public and trading companies 541 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 1: who had no idea that their stock wasn't trading of 542 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: its volume on New York um or wasn't trading you know, 543 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: or or that you know that there other other markets 544 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: could even trade their stock. And I think that um so, 545 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: that was a big benefit to us. And so we 546 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: got a lot of inbound interest about saying, you know, 547 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: there's really been no choice for us, and this seems 548 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: like something different, and our shareholders are talking about it 549 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: and and can we learn more? So so listening is 550 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: something that we're definitely interesting it in. But um it's 551 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: we're still in the process of kind of working through, 552 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: you know, how how how can we be different? So 553 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: that's a business yet to be formed, but one that 554 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: has some interest. You know, We've looked at other asset classes, 555 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 1: We've talked about other geographies and and the number one 556 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: thing for us is to not get distracted. We still 557 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 1: feel like there's so much work to do in US 558 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: equities that, um, I think spreading ourselves too thin would 559 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: be a mistake right now. So although although we do 560 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: get a lot of inbound interest from varying parties and 561 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: traders and customers and other and other assets and regions, 562 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: you know, we're universally, we're seventy four people, and so 563 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 1: we're universally focused on on US equities. But I do 564 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: think that if we start to gain traction looking elsewhere, 565 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, we always have our ears and eyes open um. 566 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: So I guess we'll we'll kind of see down the line. 567 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, the focus is definitely US equities. There's a 568 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: discussion about you are helping long term investors kind of 569 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: invest in a in a very specific market micros actually 570 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: a way there's another big discussion and kind of US 571 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: equity markets around people saying shareholders have two short term 572 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: or perspective, or companies have two short term or perspective. Um, 573 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: it seems to me that there's like at least the 574 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: sort of like verbal overlap there right where where companies 575 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: come to you and they say you're the long you're 576 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: the stock exchange for long term investors. We want long 577 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: term investors. We want people who don't care so much 578 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: about quarterly numbers. Do you think about that overlapping in 579 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: terms of like listing standards, in terms of anything, or 580 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: is that just kind of like further afield from your 581 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: subject expertise. I think I mean it is a bit 582 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: further afield for us. I mean we so like the 583 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: long term stock exchange. That idea, it's an interesting idea, 584 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: and and I like Eric and what they're doing. It's 585 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: always it seems like a natural fit for you again 586 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: in like a sort of verbal sense. Yeah, and so 587 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: philosophically were aligned. Um, but yeah, to dramatically change the 588 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: listing standards that is, I think you kind of summarize it. 589 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: Will It's not it's not our core expertise is to 590 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, arm up with lawyers and try to change, 591 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, Dorothy and cross the teas a different way. 592 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: So I think what they're trying to do is is 593 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: extremely interesting to us. We do see it as as 594 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: a problem, but not one that I X necessarily solving 595 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: those types of like regulatory rule based, um, you know standards. 596 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: I don't think that it's high on our on our list, 597 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: although I think there are equal merits to what they're 598 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: trying to accomplish because it is you know, short termism. 599 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: Is is definitely a you know, a problem in the market, 600 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: and I think them setting out to try to solve that, 601 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, we we give them a lot of credit 602 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: and I think we have a good relationship with them, so, um, 603 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: it's good. We were encouraged by the fact that people 604 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: are trying to take on different parts of where they 605 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: think the market can improve. So maybe sort of like 606 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 1: thinking about it, probably like it seems like you have 607 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: like one big idea and you're kind of working with 608 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: full focus to like implement and sell that one big idea, 609 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: and you're not kind of looking to kind of branch 610 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: out into other big ideas at this point. Not not yet, yeah, 611 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: not yet, we we we it keeps in second or 612 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: third inning, and I really think that's like the case, 613 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: there's so much work to be done that and and 614 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: and we're relatively small to try to to try to 615 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: spread out um spread ourselves really thin. I mean, so 616 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, Ronan In, Rob Park and John Shwal and 617 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: Sophia we all have core expertise. We're all super focused 618 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: on the business, and to start to like spread that 619 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: expertise around, I think it becomes really really tough. So 620 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: we we we've built a team to kind of take 621 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,959 Speaker 1: this challenge on. And I think as if the business 622 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: starts to mature and we start to kind of settle 623 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: on a path, you know, could we invest and look 624 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: look at other areas. Absolutely, But it's you know, as 625 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: you as you say, we're seven days in, Uh, we 626 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: got a lot of work to do. Were talking a 627 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: little about the SEC process, sure, like what kind of 628 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: surprised you about that? So I think the most surprised 629 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: I was was how vocal the exchanges were against us, 630 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: and and kind of how how the level got turned up. 631 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: You know, I think the by side came out of 632 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: the gates with supportive comment letters, and I think that 633 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: forced this process from kind of happening behind the scenes 634 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: to happening in the public comment process. I mean Bat's 635 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: I think Bat's bats and directed for the last four 636 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: exchange approvals. And I could be wrong in this, but 637 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: I think they had three comment letters between the four exchanges, 638 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: so there was never really any you know, debate, public 639 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: debate about about those. And I think people would say 640 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: those were structurally pretty similar. Yeah, they were all they 641 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: were all. They're all fairly similar. I think that if if, certainly, 642 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: if if we had known what we know now at 643 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: the time those proposals, we might have had a few 644 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: things to say about it. It It was hard, it's it's 645 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: hard to say what they look like at the time 646 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: they got to prove. But I think that, um, the 647 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: by side coming out and supporting NYA X forced kind 648 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: of our opposition to become public. And I thought I 649 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: was a bit surprised with with the exchanges. Um you know, 650 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: it was tough. Was that there were so many letters, 651 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: there were so many comments in general, rated so much 652 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: interest that that the SEC had to sort through all 653 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: of that to make the best decision they could make. 654 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: And so I think that the timing of it, you know, 655 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: I kind of in a way understood why I had 656 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: to take so long, because there were so many comments, 657 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: but you know, we're just thankful that we got through 658 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: it and got approved. In terms of the SEC, it's 659 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 1: off where there are things that you're kind of like 660 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: disappointed by or like surprised to the upside in terms 661 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: of how they dealt with the application and how they 662 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,719 Speaker 1: dealt with a lot of like sort of incommensurable pressure 663 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: on both sides. Right and me, you have like all 664 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: these like op eds saying i X or the exchange 665 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: of the people, and then you have all these exchanges 666 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: saying i X well ruined market structure. Yeah, it's it 667 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: seems to me it would be difficult for the SEC 668 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: to deal with that. Like what was your kind of 669 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: impression of how they dealt with it? Yeah, they So 670 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: the people that were directly on I X is kind 671 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: of application were extremely thorough and and and you know, 672 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: ask a million questions and we we did our best 673 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: to work with them, and it was a you know, 674 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: it was a fairly rigorous and thorough process. So kind 675 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: of gives me. It's like one of those things where 676 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, some people are are upset when they get 677 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: padded down at security lines at airports, and I don't mind, 678 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: I don't mind, because I'm like, at least they're you know, 679 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: they're they're in there, you know, kind of you know, 680 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: trying to trying to vet things out. So it was 681 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: it was I think you know, they did a thorough job. 682 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: I think that you know, the pressures in your right 683 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: it was coming from both sides. I think that that 684 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: showed what was at stake, and I think that that 685 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: caused probably even more deliberations internally to make sure that 686 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: they were making the right decision for the right reasons. So, 687 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, I think 688 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, we're we are. We're just thankful 689 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: that that that process is kind of behind us and 690 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: we got the approval and now we just have a 691 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: chance to compete. Like what's your what what would you 692 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: tell someone who works on the All Street has like 693 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: they're a big idea and like once the change the 694 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: world with like one thing that hasn't been tied about, 695 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: Like what's like, what's your advice for the next year. 696 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: I think it was it was it was a very 697 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: hard decision to leave RBC, and because there's a certain 698 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: level of comfort of of working at a large firm 699 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: and of being as a part of the system. And 700 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: I think, um, I do think society in general is 701 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: shifting to a more transparent society, and I think that 702 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: what that does it casts a brighter light on on 703 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: how people make money. We don't have any issue with 704 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: how with people making money. I think that's just part 705 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: of capitalism and and you know, we're capitalists at heartwork 706 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: for profidility. But I think how people make money is 707 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: going to be a greater focus going forward. And I 708 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: do think so if people are are are thinking about 709 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: doing something different with their life, just think about the 710 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: incentives that you know that that that are there for 711 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: you to do what you do. And if you don't 712 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: believe in that incentive structure, then finding it a different 713 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: thing to do with your life isn't as risky now 714 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: as it as it was in the past. I don't believe. So. 715 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: I think the world's more receptive to people trying to 716 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: trying to do things differently. That was, like I said, 717 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: a special edition of Odd Lots because we weren't in it, 718 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: but it was great. Nonetheless, there's been another edition of 719 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,720 Speaker 1: the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow 720 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at the Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. 721 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway. Thanks for listening. Put 722 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: knowledge to work and grow your business with c i T. 723 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers 724 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and 725 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: middle market businesses. Learn more at c i T dot com. 726 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: Put Knowledge to Work