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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in

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Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here,

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Speaker 1: back for another episode, as we, of course break down

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Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties. There are some episodes that

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Speaker 1: I do just for me. You know, no one has

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Speaker 1: really asked for them. I'm just super fascinated by the

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Speaker 1: topic or it's just really showing up in my own

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Speaker 1: life and I feel like I can't move past it

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Speaker 1: unless I do an episode on it, like that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So like the recent episodes that I've done

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Speaker 1: on how to Pursue your creative Passion, that was one

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Speaker 1: of those, as was the one on hobbies. And then

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Speaker 1: then there are the episodes that you all the listeners

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Speaker 1: are almost begging me to do. And anytime I ask

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Speaker 1: for topic suggestions, anytime I ask people to guess what

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Speaker 1: episode is coming next, overwhelmingly I get this response. Please

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Speaker 1: talk about the psychology behind male female friendships, why they

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Speaker 1: seem so rare, why they can be so hard, what

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Speaker 1: makes them work, what makes them doesn't. And today, my friends,

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Speaker 1: is the day that we talk about it, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to give the people what they want, and

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Speaker 1: I have to also give you all the psychological answers

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Speaker 1: behind this big question can men and women be friends?

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Speaker 1: I think the reason that it's taken me so long

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Speaker 1: to do this episode is because I don't want it

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Speaker 1: to be like surface level so as not to offend anyone.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to make general claims and like gloss

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Speaker 1: over the facts and the research. I wanted to really

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Speaker 1: go deep into this question of whether men and women

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Speaker 1: can be friends, like the age old when Harry met

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Speaker 1: Sally Trope, and in doing that, we are going to

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Speaker 1: explore so much. We're going to explore how societal expectations

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Speaker 1: around gender and friendship have changed over the past sixty years,

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Speaker 1: what the key difference is between male to male and

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Speaker 1: female to female friendships, non binary and queer friendships, before

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Speaker 1: really jumping into what makes male female friendships in particular

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Speaker 1: so tricky, whether it is just romantic attraction or something

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Speaker 1: deeper like communication or expectations, but why also these kinds

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Speaker 1: of friendships, when they work, are really important and really fulfilling.

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Speaker 1: We'll also touch on what happens when one person gets feelings,

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Speaker 1: how to reassert boundaries, and some stories from the listeners,

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Speaker 1: I asked you guys to submit your opinions and your

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Speaker 1: stories on this good, bad, and ugly about your experience

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Speaker 1: with male female friendships. One thing that I got out

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Speaker 1: of all of those dms is that there is not

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Speaker 1: a general consensus when it comes to this question. I

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Speaker 1: definitely have my own opinion because I do have quite

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Speaker 1: a few really close male friends that will always be platonic.

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Speaker 1: But you, all the listeners, you also had opinions and

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Speaker 1: there was not a single, you know, overarching, overwhelming answer.

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Speaker 1: So we're really gonna dive into some of the fascinating

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Speaker 1: studies done on this in social psychology, debunk some of

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Speaker 1: the misconceptions, but also provide a bit of a checklist

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Speaker 1: for what makes female friendships work. If you can't already tell,

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Speaker 1: you are in for a treat and a big discussion.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you are strapped in. I hope you

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Speaker 1: are excited to learn or perhaps to maybe confirm something

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Speaker 1: that you already did know. But without further ado, let

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Speaker 1: us talk about the psychology of male female friendships. I

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Speaker 1: want you to do a quick exercise for me right now.

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Speaker 1: How many friends do you have that are the same

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Speaker 1: gender as you? I want you to keep counting until

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Speaker 1: you reach maybe maximum of fifteen. Now, how many friends

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Speaker 1: do you have of the opposite gender. They can't be

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Speaker 1: partners of friends, that's a big one. They can't be

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Speaker 1: related to you. They can't be people that you have

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Speaker 1: previously been romantically involved with. Chances are that the second

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Speaker 1: number is much smaller than the first. For most of us,

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Speaker 1: our friendship preferences do tend to be skewed towards people

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Speaker 1: of the same gender because there is a lived experience

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Speaker 1: there that we share. But also we've been socialized by

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Speaker 1: society in the same way, so we are more likely

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Speaker 1: to enjoy the same activities, like the same things, have

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Speaker 1: similar language and a way of communicating, And research really

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Speaker 1: does show that people often form friendships with those of

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Speaker 1: a similar age, religion, education, occupation, and also gender, with

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Speaker 1: some exceptions. Of course. One study to find that younger

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Speaker 1: gay and bisexual men are more likely to have cross

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Speaker 1: gender friendships, while lesbian women are not. They're more likely

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Speaker 1: to have more female friends. I think it's also worth

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Speaker 1: noting that not a lot, actually very little of this

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Speaker 1: research has been done on this population, and very little

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Speaker 1: has been done on non binary people as well, so

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Speaker 1: that is a big research gap. If anyone needs a

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Speaker 1: PhD topic or a thesis idea non binary friendship preferences

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Speaker 1: by gender or something like that would be very interesting.

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Speaker 1: But as a general rule, women tend to be friends

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Speaker 1: with more women, and they express greater closeness to their

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Speaker 1: female friends, and the same goes for men. There are

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Speaker 1: a few reasons for this, some of which we've already mentioned,

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Speaker 1: but I think a large part of this gender divide

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Speaker 1: is actually quite historical, and it's remnant of a time

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Speaker 1: where male female relations could not be platonic. You were

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Speaker 1: either courting, married, or family. And even then there was

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Speaker 1: still a great deal of separation. We had male quarters

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Speaker 1: female quarters. As an example, a woman couldn't be alone

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Speaker 1: with a man who was not family or her husband.

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Speaker 1: That's still the case in some parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: So that makes it kind of hard to be friends

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Speaker 1: with someone of the opposite gender, doesn't it. It's not

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Speaker 1: very likely we can also trace this general pattern back

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Speaker 1: to potentially things like the division of labor. So men,

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Speaker 1: you know, historically went out hunting, women participated in child rearing,

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Speaker 1: and you know, women only recently, and I by recently,

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Speaker 1: I mean in the last one hundred years entered the

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Speaker 1: workplace where they actually had a chance to make friends

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Speaker 1: with men and had a chance to exit the home.

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Speaker 1: That's only like three to four generations of progress. So

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Speaker 1: this long historical division has also that I mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: changed how men and women were socialized or caned basically

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Speaker 1: just a fancy word for how we were raised and

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Speaker 1: the values and personalities that were instilled in us. Women

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Speaker 1: are typically seen as more vulnerable, they're more feeling giving, nurturing,

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Speaker 1: that is the traditional consensus, whereas men have been seen

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Speaker 1: as more adventurous, tough, less emotional, so that has dictated

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Speaker 1: how they relate and interact with those of their own gender.

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Speaker 1: So let me explain this a little bit further. So,

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Speaker 1: there was this really cool research study downe at Duke

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Speaker 1: University in twenty sixteen, and it wanted to see the

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Speaker 1: difference within female female friendships and male male friendships. It

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Speaker 1: found that women we tend to lean into self disclosure

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Speaker 1: when hanging out, so when we catch up with our

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Speaker 1: friends were more likely to tell them about things that

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Speaker 1: have happened in our life that have hurt us or

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Speaker 1: excited us, or that have caused us to be angry

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Speaker 1: or sad, whatever it is, we're more likely to be vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: Whilst men, when they get together they often do a

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Speaker 1: shared activity, or they're helping each other with a project

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Speaker 1: or a task. I have seen this with my own boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: where he prefers to play three hours of video games

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Speaker 1: with his friends, whereas me and my girlfriends will go

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Speaker 1: out for like a three hour dinner and a three

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Speaker 1: hour chat. And after he has seen his friends, it's like,

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Speaker 1: very typical. He's gone out for a beer, they've gone

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Speaker 1: to the beach. I'll be like, oh, yeah, so, Like

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Speaker 1: how is so and So's girlfriend? Like what's happening there?

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Speaker 1: Like are they still together? She's so nice? I really

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Speaker 1: like her, Like what's happening? And he'll be like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. We didn't talk about it. Or I'll be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, your friend, how is his terrible job going?

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Speaker 1: Like has he been able to find a new job?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Again, we didn't talk about it. And

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Speaker 1: it leaves me so confused because I'm like, what else

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Speaker 1: are you meant to talk about other than each other's lives?

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Speaker 1: Like that's what a friend is for, but obviously that's

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Speaker 1: not really the case. For him and like he has

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Speaker 1: a preference or maybe a conditioned preference towards more of

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Speaker 1: a hangout than a catch up. So there was another

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen study done on this from none other than

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Speaker 1: Robin Dunbar. You may know him from Dunbar's number, which

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Speaker 1: basically tells us how many friends we should or could

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Speaker 1: have at a particular time. But he does a lot

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Speaker 1: of research on like. He's a social psychologist, so a

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Speaker 1: lot of his research is on how we interact, how

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Speaker 1: we learn each other's behaviors, how we hang out, how

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Speaker 1: we talk, how we gossip, all those things, how relationships

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Speaker 1: are formed. And his research from twenty seventeen found that

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Speaker 1: women also tend to prefer to socialize one on one,

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Speaker 1: whilst men prefer to socialize in groups. Again, I see

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Speaker 1: that reflected in my own experiences. What's all so different

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Speaker 1: between women women friendships and male male friendships is that

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Speaker 1: women tend to have higher expectations of their friends, and

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Speaker 1: they expressed greater disappointment upset at last minute cancelations of plans,

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Speaker 1: not seeing their friends for a while, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: whereas men are kind of okay with their friends having

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Speaker 1: agency even if it doesn't match what they want from them.

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Speaker 1: One final big thing that I found really really interesting

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Speaker 1: and that I promise i'll stop. But women are more

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Speaker 1: likely to have a best friend compared to men, which

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Speaker 1: again checks out. So for a long time, friendships exhibited

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Speaker 1: something we call gender homophilly. Women were only friends with women,

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Speaker 1: men are only friends with men. That has changed a

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Speaker 1: lot recently. I want to explore how that shift took place.

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Speaker 1: So the big factors trace back to society just becoming

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Speaker 1: gradually more liberal, women entering the workforce more after World

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Speaker 1: War One and World War II, the rise in co

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Speaker 1: ed schools, and just more rights for women in general

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Speaker 1: to exist in the public sphere rather than just at home.

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Speaker 1: So there was just more opportunities for exposure and for

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Speaker 1: meeting and for friendship making. But this, really, you know,

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Speaker 1: takes us back to this big million dollar question. For

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Speaker 1: all this progress, for all the male female friendships that

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Speaker 1: we do see, can men and women ever actually be

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Speaker 1: friends without romantic attraction getting in the way. Despite all

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Speaker 1: of the progress, does romance still always find a way in?

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to hear from you all the listeners

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Speaker 1: before I reveal what the psychology says so far, And

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Speaker 1: I asked you all over on Instagram, give me your perspective,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? What have you seen happen in

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Speaker 1: your own life? And the answers your responses they were

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Speaker 1: split perfectly fifty to fifty, right down the line, right

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Speaker 1: down the middle. And also no one who DMed me

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Speaker 1: had a neutral opinion. What I mean to say by

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Speaker 1: that is that no one was messaging me saying oh yes,

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Speaker 1: sometimes yes, sometimes no. It was either some of my

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Speaker 1: best friends a men or women or the opposite gender,

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Speaker 1: and I trust them and I love them more than

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Speaker 1: anyone else, or this always ends in disaster stay away.

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Speaker 1: For example, I heard from one woman who said her

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Speaker 1: closest friends are all men. She has deep trust for them.

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Speaker 1: They've known each other for almost a decade, and she

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Speaker 1: was also in their wedding parties. I got a similar

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Speaker 1: message from a guy who said he had recently mceed

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Speaker 1: one of his female best friend's weddings. How he will

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Speaker 1: eventually include his female friends as part of his groomsmen.

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Speaker 1: How he and this was actually a really refreshing message.

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Speaker 1: He was like, my female friends have changed my worldview

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Speaker 1: compared to some of my other mates, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I see the world and I see life differently, which

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Speaker 1: I was like, huh, this is actually quite beautiful, and

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Speaker 1: that was reflected in another message from someone who was like,

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Speaker 1: my male friends have taught me what it means to

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Speaker 1: be considerate and caring for someone in an unconditional way,

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Speaker 1: which how beautiful is that. I also did get a

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Speaker 1: few messages of like, men are just easier to deal

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Speaker 1: with compared to women, which, yeah, I'm sure that's the

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Speaker 1: case for some people. I don't find that to be

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Speaker 1: the case, Like, I think it's just different, but that

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Speaker 1: was a common message I also got. And then the

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Speaker 1: other side of the coin, the dms about male female

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Speaker 1: friendships that were destroyed by someone catching feelings by deep

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Speaker 1: betrayal in some cases, trauma and hurt, jealousy and unrequited

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Speaker 1: love all very common. A surprising insight was that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the dms from women who had male friends

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Speaker 1: actually said most of their male friends were gay or queer,

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Speaker 1: which kind of supports the common argument the male female

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Speaker 1: heterosexual friendships they don't work because of sexual attraction, but

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Speaker 1: when you take out that lam it can flourish. All

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Speaker 1: of that aside. We are going to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and when we return, I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: what makes male female friendships so hard, why they fail,

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Speaker 1: but also how to set boundaries, how to approach the

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Speaker 1: friend zone and perhaps keep the friendship, and so much

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Speaker 1: more so stay with us. So we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the romance, the lust, the feelings, the Harry met

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Speaker 1: Sally's situation, which is a great movie. Actually showed my

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Speaker 1: boyfriend that movie the other day and that's really like

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Speaker 1: as research and we had a really interesting discussion about it.

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Speaker 1: But firstly, I want to touch on some of the

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Speaker 1: other reasons, less known, less thought of reasons why male

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Speaker 1: female friendships may be a bit harder. The big first

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Speaker 1: one is gender differences in emotional expression and communication styles.

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Speaker 1: Try as we might, men and women do emote differently,

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Speaker 1: and they have been socialized to show vulnerability, compassion, empathy

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Speaker 1: in different ways. For men, empathy is often seen as

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Speaker 1: a sign of weakness. For women, it's a sign of kindness,

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Speaker 1: a good soul, it's a strength. So when you combine

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Speaker 1: these reactions, when you put them together, sometimes there can

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Speaker 1: be this divide between what either party wants and what

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Speaker 1: the other party gives. So I will say one of

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Speaker 1: my closest friends Jack. He's a guy, and I've never

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Speaker 1: experienced this with him. In fact, I think sometimes he's

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Speaker 1: more sympathetic than some of my female friends. But I

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Speaker 1: have seen this in other instances where a male friend

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Speaker 1: is like, you know, they're there, like, don't cry, child like,

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Speaker 1: and I can see that he's really struggling because he's

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Speaker 1: never had to practice this skill, and so that does

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Speaker 1: make it difficult if time and time again you realize

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Speaker 1: that going to this person for emotional comfort isn't necessarily,

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Speaker 1: you know, going to give you what you want. There

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Speaker 1: was a DM I received from one person that matches

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Speaker 1: this assumption. She said, I don't feel as comfortable around men.

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Speaker 1: They don't show empathy, they have no idea what struggles

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Speaker 1: women often have to face. I don't relate to them,

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Speaker 1: and I don't feel validated, which might be what some

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Speaker 1: people feel, and they just tend to find more support

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Speaker 1: in people who get their lived experiences, and gender does

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Speaker 1: influence how we experience the world. The second difficulty comes

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Speaker 1: down to jealousy and insecurity from partners, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is the problem with assuming all bale female friendships

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Speaker 1: automatically have an underlying level of sexual attraction, it can

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Speaker 1: ruin the friendship in other ways, it's the assumption that

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Speaker 1: they do that ruins them. I e. You know, when

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend or the girlfriend or the partner of your

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Speaker 1: friend feels insecure or jealous of your platonic bond, or

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Speaker 1: they have a low residing level of competition, it's like

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Speaker 1: a form of platonic retroactive jealousy almost and doubt even

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Speaker 1: if there isn't no, there is no sexual attraction there.

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Speaker 1: Some people do worry about emotional cheating and they do

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Speaker 1: see platonic friends of the opposite gender as a threat

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Speaker 1: in that way, like why do you need to have

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Speaker 1: female friends now that you have me? Why do you

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Speaker 1: need male friends when you have me? As if you know,

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Speaker 1: gender is the only thing that defines the bond. I

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Speaker 1: received a message from someone who said that she had

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Speaker 1: been friends with her guy friends for over a decade. However,

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Speaker 1: when they started getting into relationships, they stopped talking to her,

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Speaker 1: and now they have no relationship at all. And I

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Speaker 1: think the assumption there is that their girlfriends probably maybe

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Speaker 1: weren't comfortable with them having such a close female friend.

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Speaker 1: One woman said, and this actually shocked me when I

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Speaker 1: got this, she said, my male best friend's ex used

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Speaker 1: to accuse me of and running her car so that

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Speaker 1: I would get in trouble with him. Like when I

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Speaker 1: read that message, I was like, oh my god. Like

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Speaker 1: the image of that, like this woman showing up and

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Speaker 1: like somehow, you know, finding a way to dent her

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Speaker 1: car to blame this friend of her of her partner,

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Speaker 1: is just ridiculous. And I honestly think that does indicate

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Speaker 1: already a general insecurity or lack of trust that goes

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Speaker 1: far beyond a male female friendship. But for some people,

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Speaker 1: they just can't understand again why you need friends of

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Speaker 1: the opposite gender when you have a partner. I am

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Speaker 1: going to say this, and I don't like to make

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Speaker 1: hot takes like this, but I don't think that's particularly

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Speaker 1: socially intelligent to have that assumption. But I also respect

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Speaker 1: that if you've been burned by past experiences, maybe this

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Speaker 1: does feel like a natural protective reaction, Like I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be hurt again. This is past, you know,

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Speaker 1: a past situation that has hurt me. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have boundaries and rules for myself, which if it

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Speaker 1: works for you, it works for you. I do just

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Speaker 1: think that it's nuanced and its case by case. It

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Speaker 1: is something I used to be very aware of in

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Speaker 1: my male friendships, because you know, I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: come off as threatening. I didn't want to come off

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Speaker 1: as like someone anyone had to be worried about. But

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Speaker 1: as I've gotten older, you know, I've expected more maturity

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Speaker 1: from people, like I've known this person for eight years.

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Speaker 1: Of course, if either of us had any kind of feeling,

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Speaker 1: we would have figured it out by now. Like you're okay,

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Speaker 1: Like I do really think that as you get older

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Speaker 1: it gets easier as well, because you're like, well, yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: if it was going to happen, it would have happened.

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Speaker 1: So we're in the clear. But if you do believe

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Speaker 1: male female friendships always end with someone getting feelings, it

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Speaker 1: is a hard intuition to move past. So let's talk

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Speaker 1: about it now. Let's finally get to this point. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about one study in particular from twenty

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Speaker 1: twelve published and Scientific America. So for this study, they

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Speaker 1: wanted to see male female friendships possible, not possible, What

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Speaker 1: is the threat of sexual attraction? So they brought in

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Speaker 1: eighty eight pairs of undergraduate opposite sex friends into a

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Speaker 1: science lab and they separated them, but before they did,

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Speaker 1: they made both friends promise verbally in front of each

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Speaker 1: other that they weren't going to talk about this study

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Speaker 1: with each other afterwards. Anything said in the separate rooms

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Speaker 1: would be private. Have a guess what they asked them. Well,

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Speaker 1: they took them into separate rooms and they said, all right,

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Speaker 1: this friend that you brought today, would you ever consider

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Speaker 1: dating this person? Have you ever felt attracted to this person?

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Speaker 1: Would you like your future partner to have qualities like

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Speaker 1: your friend? Do you want to ask them out? Do

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Speaker 1: you think they feel the same way about you that

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Speaker 1: your feelings are reciprocated. Here is what the results said.

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Speaker 1: Men were much more attracted to their female friends than

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Speaker 1: vice versa, so they were more likely to say, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think she really hot, I would date her. They

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Speaker 1: were also more likely than the women to think that

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Speaker 1: their opposite sex friend was attracted to them, even when

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the case. So a lot of the men

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Speaker 1: were saying, I have feelings for her, I think she's attractive,

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Speaker 1: and I think she feels the same about me, And

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Speaker 1: really that had virtually nothing to do with how these

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Speaker 1: women actually felt. Most of the men would just say it.

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Speaker 1: In general, there was no pattern, like, it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: they were picking up on cues. They just assumed romantic

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Speaker 1: attraction and they assumed that it was mutual. Women, though,

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Speaker 1: they were also a little bit blind and they were

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Speaker 1: blind to the mindset of their opposite sex friend. So

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Speaker 1: some of them were attracted to their male friends. Most

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Speaker 1: of them, though, weren't, and when they were, they didn't

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Speaker 1: assume that their attraction was mutual, so they weren't being like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, he were totally date me. They were a

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Speaker 1: bit more cautious. They were also more sensitive to their

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Speaker 1: male friends relationship status. They were more likely to say

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Speaker 1: that they were uninterested in pursuing their friend because they

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Speaker 1: were already involved with someone else. Men just didn't really

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Speaker 1: seem to care. Basically, the age old wisdom may be true,

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Speaker 1: but it's not women who struggle with being just friends.

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Speaker 1: It's the men, which is perhaps why the friend zone

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Speaker 1: often is filled with a lot of guys and not

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Speaker 1: so many women. Now, before we jump to conclusions, I

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Speaker 1: really want to say a lot of people do and

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Speaker 1: will look at the study and be like, well, there

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Speaker 1: you go, that's it. It proves it. It's impossible. Men

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Speaker 1: and women can't be friends. It's in the science. That's

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Speaker 1: simply not true. Not every person or every man or

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Speaker 1: every woman in this study answered the exact same way.

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Speaker 1: There were male participants who did see their friends completely platonically,

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Speaker 1: and as did their female friend. So one thing we

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Speaker 1: need to understand about any kind of psychological research. No

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Speaker 1: one's study is going to prove something, and it's definitely

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00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: not going to give you a result with one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent significance, and the same is to be said about

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Speaker 1: this study. We cannot take those findings and apply them

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Speaker 1: to everyone. Also, because there were only eighty eight people involved,

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Speaker 1: so only forty four groups of friends. I also think

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Speaker 1: that if attraction was the only issue, lesbians wouldn't be

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00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: able to be friends with straight women yet they are. Gay.

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Speaker 1: Men wouldn't be able to be friends with straight men,

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Speaker 1: Bisexual individuals wouldn't be able to be friends with anyone,

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Speaker 1: and that's obviously not true. Just because you may think

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Speaker 1: someone is attractive, it doesn't mean that you'll necessarily act

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Speaker 1: on it. We do have self control, so we want

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00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: to take a nuanced approach to these findings. But it

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Speaker 1: does really lead me to my point what does it

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Speaker 1: take for men and women to be friends? Is there

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00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: a bit of a checklist or common factors that unite

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00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: successful platonic male female friendships in some way? Well, I

402
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: want to find out and report back my findings, and

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00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: this was the kind of checklist that I came up with.

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00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: The checklist for a successful male female friendship. Number one,

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00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: I think neither party can be secretly attracted to the

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00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: other because this creates a pining unrequited love situation where

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00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: someone is bound to be hurt whilst you know either

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00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: they're waiting for the other person's feelings to change or

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00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: they're also waiting for the feeling to go away. Like

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00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: when you're in that situation, in that emotional limbo, you

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00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: are just going to be repeatedly hurt, I think, and

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00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: you're going to have expectations for the relationship that aren't

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00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: the expectations that you would have for your purely platonic friend.

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Speaker 1: The other thing about unrequited love is that it makes

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00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: it really hard to walk away, even when you know

416
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: you should, because the possibility of the what if or

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00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: your hypothetical feeling about the situation feels so real, like

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00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: you are waiting for things to change when it might not,

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00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: and it probably won't if you cross that line as well,

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00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: if you do have sex, or if you do say

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Speaker 1: I really feel for you, I want to date you,

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00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 1: it can be hard to come back from. It is

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00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: very difficult, and I want everyone to hear this. It

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00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 1: is very difficult to come back from being friends with

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00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: benefits to just friends unless it is purely transactional. But

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00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: of course it never is because you're friends. You know,

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00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: you already had a prior emotional bond, so you obviously,

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00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: at least in a slim sense, like them. You've kept

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00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: up a friendship with them. So you can't kid yourself

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00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: and say it's just sex, it's just physical, because you

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00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: know the feeling most likely originated from a more mental place,

432
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: one of kinship, friendship, mutual respect, liking like you were

433
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: friends for a reason, and that blossomed into sexual attraction.

434
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: Now it's more than just that, you know, it's two

435
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: things combined. Think about all the movies that have been

436
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: made about this, all the storylines in television shows like Friends,

437
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: like The Office, like Parks and Recreation. I could literally

438
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: name dozens. They all have a predictable ending. Either they

439
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: end up together. Which is the best case scenario, or

440
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: the friendship disintegrates because it can't remain in that ambiguous

441
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: whatever we are zone forever. And when you have to

442
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: either move on or commit, what if both people are

443
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 1: on the same page, one of you wants to move on,

444
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: one of you wants to commit, the friendship's done. So yes,

445
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: no attraction, definitely, no sex. Second, a successful male female friendship,

446
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: or any friendship for that matter, needs to be respect spectful,

447
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: gender aside. And honestly, that's what I really heard from

448
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: a lot of women who dmned me. It was that

449
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: their male friendships ended because of a lack of respect

450
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: and a failure to learn or understand their perspective. So

451
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: there has to be respect for each other's opinions, perspectives,

452
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: and individuality. And I'm gonna say it again, like any

453
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: friendship can end from a lack of respect. But since

454
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: men and women have been socialized to show respect differently,

455
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: I think it can be a learning process for some people.

456
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: And so yeah, again, gender aside. You need this and

457
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: kind of links to the next thing, which is emotional safety.

458
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: You have to feel emotionally supported and safe in confiding

459
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: in them. And if you're perhaps a woman who has

460
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: previously had bad experiences with male behavior. That emotional safety

461
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: can be hard, and that can make male friendships difficult

462
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: following a betrayal. With that, we also need mutual trust

463
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: as well and equality in the friendship, so both parties

464
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: are putting in effort, both are putting in attention time.

465
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: That can be difficult because, as we discussed before, differing

466
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: expectations between men and women when it comes to friendship

467
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: can cause this to become a source of friction. And finally,

468
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: I think for male female friendships to be successful, there

469
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: has to be an absence of jealousy, particularly around others

470
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. So partners of these people cannot be jealous.

471
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: People within the friendship cannot be jealous of the partners,

472
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: and I think that jealousy in this case, like when

473
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: a guy gets a girlfriend and suddenly you know, his

474
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: female friend gets quite upset and distressed, that reaction is

475
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: really just a proxy again for romantic interest. So it

476
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: links back to that big umbrella point, you can't be

477
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: attracted to each other. Basically, I think a lot of

478
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: these points go beyond gender. If they're a good person,

479
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: they'll be a good friend and I don't think, at

480
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: least I hope those aren't hard criteria to meet, and

481
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: in all honesty, I think it's really worth finding friends

482
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: of the opposite gender that you can trust and care

483
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: about and vice versa. Obviously it's not a necessity for

484
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: some of us, but if you can get it right,

485
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: it is really rewarding because you do see a whole

486
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: new perspective. You may even see the world differently. I

487
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: also had one message from someone who was a woman

488
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: and she has autism, and she says, you know, being

489
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: around men allowed me to finally learn how people interact

490
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: because there's so much more straightforward, so I learned a

491
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: lot of social skills from them. Men may also experience

492
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: less judgment and more validation and emotional safety with their

493
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: female friends, so we are getting things from the other

494
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: person's perspective, even if it does look different to how

495
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: you would hang out with friends of the same gender,

496
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: i e. It's more activity based, or it's coffee and

497
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: a chat rather and playing soccer or whatever. I think

498
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: everyone does bring something new based on themselves as individuals,

499
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: and gender is a facet of who we are, so

500
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: bringing a different perspective whether you are male female, non

501
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: binary like that is important and allows people to see

502
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: things differently. I will admit, for many a lot of

503
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: the comments I received said it is becoming harder because

504
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: of how gender has been weaponized in politics and in

505
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: our society recently, it does feel like there is a

506
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: bigger social and psychological divide between men and women. So

507
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: this amazing article from Vox actually interviewed people about this

508
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: after the US election and found that there is a

509
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: lot of social momentum pushing men and women apart, you know,

510
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: from reproductive rights to which parties young men versus young

511
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: women choose to vote for, how social media has become

512
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: more intense and pushed men into these weird corners of

513
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: the internet that nobody quite frankly needs to be in,

514
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: Like it has made it harder to see eye to eye.

515
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: And I get it. If you're in the US and

516
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: you're a woman whose basic reproductive rights have been squashed,

517
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: and you have a male friend who just doesn't really

518
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: seem to get it, or really doesn't really seem to

519
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: care how serious this is, it can take a toll

520
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: you don't feel seen, and that's not good for any friendship.

521
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: But furthermore, the difference has become more and more apparent

522
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: because of you know, how society is currently being I

523
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 1: don't know how it's being manipulated and how it's different

524
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: from how it was before. It's harder to overlook, and

525
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of resentment can also arise. But

526
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: I also don't want to see us go back to

527
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: pre nineteen fifties or nineteen sixties, where male female friendship

528
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: was even more rare and strange. And I think that

529
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: will occur if we continue to believe that men and

530
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: women can't be friends, if we continue to suggest that

531
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: there was always romantic sexual attraction, and I think that

532
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: just stretches the divide further and it means that we

533
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: are less able to learn from each other. But I'd

534
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: also love to hear your opinions as well, because I

535
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: do believe men and women can be friends if there

536
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: is no sexual attraction, and I do think that there

537
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, situations where that isn't

538
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: the case. And I also think that it's possible to

539
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: have really respectful male female friendships that are reciprocal, that

540
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: are you know, work for both people, where there it's

541
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: emotional validation and emotional safety and listening. All those things

542
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: are possible. I do want to hear your opinions, though,

543
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: I would also really love to see more research on

544
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: non binary, bisexual trendsgender friendship preferences, because I think that

545
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: could just give us such an amazing insight and more

546
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 1: knowledge about why we do see a divide between genders

547
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: when it comes to friendships. And I think it could

548
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: also undo so many assumptions about you know, attraction, friendship preferences,

549
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: lifestyle like dating, jealousy, all those things. So if anyone

550
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: needs a fun research project, you can have that one.

551
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: That one is for you, Please do it, report back

552
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: your findings. I would love to hear about it. But

553
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: just to summarize again, I think male female friendships are possible,

554
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: but they don't come without difficulty. Some of the difficulties

555
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: are attraction. They are that men and women have been

556
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: socialized differently. They are a difference in lived experiences that

557
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: can create a divide. But if there is respect, if

558
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: there is you know, no interest in a romantic partnership,

559
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: if there is emotional safety, mutual trust, and ability to

560
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: listen to each other, I think it's beyond possible and

561
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: you can learn so much you can learn so much,

562
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: which so always reminds me of those like videos that

563
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: I used to watch on YouTube back in the day

564
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: of like questions women want to ask men, or the

565
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: biggest questions girls have for guys answered, And I think

566
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: that like when you have friends of all genders, either gender,

567
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: of just a variety of people, your worldview is more expansive.

568
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's what I hope for at least. Thank

569
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: you again for listening to this episode. If you have feedback, thoughts, questions,

570
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: please drop a comment below. I would love to hear

571
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: from you. If you have made it this far, what's

572
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: the emoji I'm going to choose today? I'm going to

573
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: choose the little friend emoji, like the two people holding hands.

574
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: So if you've made it this far, drop that below

575
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: so I can say hi and I can see who

576
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: who are the true listeners? Who are the loyal listeners?

577
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: If you want to suggest an episode, this episode was

578
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: very hugely massively suggested, and that's why I did it,

579
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: so I do obviously came into public pressure. You can

580
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: DM me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast. Just make

581
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: sure that you're following along there as well to get

582
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: episodes summaries to see what's coming up next, to vote

583
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: on future episodes and give stories like the ones that

584
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: we're provided here. Make sure you're following along, give us

585
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: a five star review, and until next time, stay safe,

586
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: be kind, be gentle to yourself above all else, and

587
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: we will talk very very soon,