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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and our month of

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Speaker 3: creepy Topics continues. We are back with part two in

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Speaker 3: our series on shadows. In part one, we talked about

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Speaker 3: historical examples of people infusing the concept of the shadow

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Speaker 3: with strange power or supernatural connotations. We talked about how

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Speaker 3: the brain perceives shadows, and some cognitive science research regarding shadows,

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Speaker 3: including the interesting finding that a lot of the time

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Speaker 3: people do not detect when shadows apparently cast by objects

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Speaker 3: are physically impossible. We also talked about legends of the

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Speaker 3: Icelandic wizard who lost his shadow when it was snatched

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Speaker 3: away by the devil, a kind of a violent tuition

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Speaker 3: extra for his fees for going to which school. But

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Speaker 3: also we talked about what it was understood to mean

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Speaker 3: that a vampire had no shadow at the time Bram

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Speaker 3: Stoker was writing the novel Dracula. Today, we're back to

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Speaker 3: examine the shadows yet again, and to get started today,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to talk about shadows with halos, so to

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Speaker 3: introduce this item, I'm going to read a passage from

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Speaker 3: the memoirs of one ben Venudo Cellini, a sixteenth century

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Speaker 3: Italian sculptor and goldsmith who I had never heard of before.

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Speaker 3: But this guy is interesting. He told his life story

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Speaker 3: in a weird, passionate, melodramatic autobiography full of bragging that

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Speaker 3: became widely celebrated in translation long after his death. This

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Speaker 3: memoir was especially beloved by artists and authors of the

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Speaker 3: Romantic movement in the late eighteen and early nineteenth centuries. Rob,

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Speaker 3: Just so you can get a quick flavor of Chillini's

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Speaker 3: comprehensive too muchness of personality, I attached an image for

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Speaker 3: you to look at. This is a famous salt cellar

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Speaker 3: that ben Venudo Chillini designed. This was used to store salt,

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Speaker 3: like for cooking.

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Speaker 2: You know, I always find it weird that that it's

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Speaker 2: essentially a salt box. And I think it's sometimes called

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Speaker 2: a salt box, but it's also called a salt cellar

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Speaker 2: and a salt pig. Neither of these terms really feel

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Speaker 2: very true to what the thing is, at least to me.

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Speaker 3: Even less so in this case. So let me describe

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Speaker 3: for those of you who cannot see the image. What

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Speaker 3: we have here is a sculpture with two towering nude gods,

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Speaker 3: one male, one female. They are lying back, their legs

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Speaker 3: entangled with one another's, suggestively. The male immortal here is

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Speaker 3: pointing with a trident, kind of holding it out, sort

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Speaker 3: of languidly. He's like almost like he's, you know, very

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Speaker 3: tired from having feasted long, but he's still he still

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Speaker 3: wants that thing over there, so he's sort of gesturing

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Speaker 3: with his trident as if to a servant, like bring

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Speaker 3: me that. Meanwhile, the goddess here appears to be sort

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Speaker 3: of pinching her own breast. Both figures are huge, they're

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Speaker 3: made of gold. They are over a landscape of blue

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Speaker 3: water crashing on a rocky shore, with golden horse heads

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Speaker 3: shrieking from the surf, a golden temple with three archways

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Speaker 3: under the giant goddess's shadow. I think this is supposed

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Speaker 3: to be Poseidon and Gaya playing foot see here, or

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Speaker 3: rather I guess in a Roman context it would be

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Speaker 3: Neptune and Tara Mater. And if you think about it,

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Speaker 3: the gods selected are actually on theme here because this

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Speaker 3: is a salt cellar and these are if it's a

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Speaker 3: Neptune and Ta Mater. This would be gods of the

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Speaker 3: earth and sea.

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Speaker 2: And I think those are hippocampi there right behind the

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Speaker 2: mail god right, so that would be a strong indicator

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Speaker 2: of aquatic divinity.

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Speaker 3: Ah, that's a good point. I didn't think of that.

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Speaker 3: Another thing here, So there's a dish next to the

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Speaker 3: two gods and the salt I guess goes in the dish.

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Speaker 3: But rob you see that little temple at the bottom

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Speaker 3: underneath the goddess. That's for peppercorns.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay.

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Speaker 3: Also strange fact, this salt cellar was stolen from a

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Speaker 3: museum in Austria in two thousand and three by a

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Speaker 3: man who ran an alarm system company. I was reading

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Speaker 3: about this in an article in The Guardian. The suspect

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Speaker 3: later claimed that the theft was quote all rather spontaneous.

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Speaker 3: The salt seller was valued at thirty five million pounds

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Speaker 3: at the time. I think the thief tried to get

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Speaker 3: a ransom, maybe from the insurance company or something, but

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Speaker 3: eventually he was caught and the museum got the peace back.

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Speaker 2: Well that's good.

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Speaker 3: So in his memoirs, benven Nudo Cellini tells the story

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Speaker 3: of creating this masterpiece. At one point, he says that

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Speaker 3: he took a mock up design and showed it to

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Speaker 3: the King of France at the time, Francis the First,

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Speaker 3: who was so impressed by this model that he commissioned

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Speaker 3: him to make the salt cellar out of gold from

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Speaker 3: his own treasury. And he was like, Chillini, you are

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Speaker 3: a genius. You're the best ever. And then Chillini says, okay.

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Speaker 3: So he gets the gold. He's carrying it back to

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Speaker 3: his workshop in a basket to make to cast the

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Speaker 3: design in gold. When he was set upon by four

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Speaker 3: armed highwaymen and then he had to draw his sword

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Speaker 3: and defeat them single handedly, he says.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: He also brags about a time that he decided to

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Speaker 3: stab some guys who had sued him and prevailed in court.

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Speaker 3: He writes, in translation quote, I perceived that my cause

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Speaker 3: had been unjustly lost. I had recourse for my to

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Speaker 3: a great dagger I carried.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 3: By the way, if you want to read more about

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Speaker 3: the salt Cellar in particular, there's a good Jaystore Daily

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Speaker 3: feature about this story by Giovanni Garcia Finitch. But needless

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Speaker 3: to say, Chilini seems to have had a fairly grandiose

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Speaker 3: idea of his own personal genius and historical significance. He

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Speaker 3: thought he was pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he sounds pretty cool just from this account, right,

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Speaker 2: And he's going around getting into sword fights, stabbing people

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Speaker 2: in legal disputes.

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Speaker 3: He says, But I don't know who knows.

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Speaker 2: Maybe.

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Speaker 3: Among Chillini's many adventures in Travail's, at one point he

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Speaker 3: found himself imprisoned in Castle San Angelo in Rome after

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Speaker 3: being accused of embezzlement. By the way, he escaped from

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Speaker 3: prison later. Oh, and then he got caught and returned

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Speaker 3: to prison. But then he got busted out of prison

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Speaker 3: by like the like a rich family. Anyway, He tells

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Speaker 3: stories of his time in prison in his memoirs, including

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Speaker 3: the fact that he had a dream in which an

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Speaker 3: angel came to him and wrote words of great importance

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Speaker 3: on his forehead with a red and he says when

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Speaker 3: he woke up that morning, he found that his forehead

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Speaker 3: actually had marks on it, and he concludes that he

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Speaker 3: was at the time receiving messages from a heavenly angel.

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Speaker 3: But here we get to the passage that brings us

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Speaker 3: back to shadows. Cellini writes quote another circumstance, I must

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Speaker 3: not omit, which is one of the most extraordinary things

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Speaker 3: that ever happened to any man, and I mention it

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Speaker 3: in justice to God and the wondrous ways of His

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Speaker 3: providence towards me. From the very moment that I beheld

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Speaker 3: the phenomenon, there appeared strange to relate a resplendent light

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Speaker 3: over my head, which has displayed itself conspicuously to all

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Speaker 3: that I have thought proper to show it to, but

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Speaker 3: those were very few. This shining light is to be

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Speaker 3: seen in the morning over my shadow till two o'clock

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Speaker 3: in the afternoon, and it appears to the greatest advantage

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Speaker 3: when the grass is moist with dew. It is likewise

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Speaker 3: visible in the evening at sunset. This phenomenon I took

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Speaker 3: notice of when I was at Paris, because the air

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Speaker 3: is exceedingly clear in that climate, so that I could

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Speaker 3: distinguish it there, much plainer than in Italy, where mists

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Speaker 3: are much more frequent. But I can still see it

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Speaker 3: even here and show it to others, though not to

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Speaker 3: the same advantage as in France.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, no, that's cool. Not only is he

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Speaker 2: going around getting into sword fights and stabbing people in

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Speaker 2: legal disputes. But he has some sort of mysterious halo

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Speaker 2: that is visible about his shadow, at least for certain

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Speaker 2: parts of the day, during certain environmental conditions.

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Speaker 3: That's right, he says, God likes me so much that

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Speaker 3: he sometimes puts a halo around my shadow's head, and

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Speaker 3: you can see the shadows radiance. Especially in the morning,

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Speaker 3: when the grass is wet with dew, there will be

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Speaker 3: visible to all a seraphic light in circling the face

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Speaker 3: of my shadow, as if my shadow's head contained a

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Speaker 3: second sun.

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Speaker 2: But not between the hours of two and six that's

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Speaker 2: Willie's time. I get.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So it's a fantastic story. But the more

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Speaker 3: fantastic part of it would probably do injury to Chillini's

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Speaker 3: sense of specialness, because, unfortunately for him, other people have

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Speaker 3: seen this same effect. In fact, it's very common when

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Speaker 3: standing over a field of grass in the morning sunlight,

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Speaker 3: you can often see a ring of golden light surrounding

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Speaker 3: your shadow's head. M Rob, I've attached some pictures for

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Speaker 3: you to look at here. Presumably the people who took

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Speaker 3: these pictures are not specially blessed by God. They were

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Speaker 3: not given a you know, plus four modifier on sword

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Speaker 3: fighting bandits. They're not the most genius goldsmith that ever existed.

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Speaker 3: These are just photographers. And what do you know, they're

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Speaker 3: looking out of the field, they're taking a photo and

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Speaker 3: there is a ring, like a sort of emanation of

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Speaker 3: radiance off of the top of their shadow.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, I see it.

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Speaker 3: Folks at home, you can look this up yourself with

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Speaker 3: the term I'm about to give you. The phenomenon is

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Speaker 3: known as hiligenshine h e i l I g e

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Speaker 3: n s c h e i n, meaning the light

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Speaker 3: of the Holy One or holy light, sometimes also known

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Speaker 3: as Chilini's halo after the passage in question, and it

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Speaker 3: is not in fact the flame of the Lord's favor

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Speaker 3: for the rattus dude in Renaissance Italy. It is an

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Speaker 3: optical effect created by the interplay of sunlight and certain

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Speaker 3: types of backgrounds, especially backgrounds containing drops of dew.

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Speaker 2: Also not to be confused with heinegenshine, that's a different

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Speaker 2: optical phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: So much like Chilini describes, the hiligenshine is most often

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Speaker 3: seen in fields early in the morning, when the sun

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Speaker 3: is at a low angle, and the observer has a

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Speaker 3: long shadow falling over wet grass. The fact that the

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Speaker 3: light is brightest right around your shadow's head here is

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Speaker 3: of course not magic. It's also not really anything special

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Speaker 3: about your shadow or the head of your shadow. Rather,

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Speaker 3: it's about perspective. It's about light sources and reflecting backgrounds

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Speaker 3: and perspective. The halo is located around your shadow's head

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Speaker 3: because your eyes are in your head, and thus the

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Speaker 3: head of your shadow is the place exactly opposite the

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Speaker 3: sun from your eyes. Maybe even never thought about it

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Speaker 3: that way before, but that's always true. This point opposite

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Speaker 3: the sun from your head is known as your antisolar point.

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Speaker 3: And another way to picture this concept is that you

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Speaker 3: can always draw a straight line in three dimensional space

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Speaker 3: from the sun through your head to your shadow's head.

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Speaker 3: Your shadow's head is at one end of that line,

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Speaker 3: the sun is at the other. The line goes straight

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Speaker 3: through your face.

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Speaker 2: All right, all right, I can picture it.

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Speaker 3: So the explanation for the optical effect usually goes like this.

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Speaker 3: The intensity of light reflected off of a drop of

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Speaker 3: water or through a drop of water and back towards

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Speaker 3: you depends on the angle of reflection. Rays of light

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Speaker 3: that reflect straight back through a droplet of water are

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Speaker 3: most intense that this straight bounce back angle of reflection

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Speaker 3: would be one hundred and eighty degrees right, going straight

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Speaker 3: into and back, like the reflection looking straight into a mirror.

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Speaker 3: As the angle of reflection shifts further away from one

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty degrees, the reflected light becomes significantly less bright.

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Speaker 3: Why would that be, well, I was reading about this

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Speaker 3: in the American Meteorological Society's Glossary of Meteorology, and they write, quote,

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Speaker 3: do drops held off the surface of the leaf by

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Speaker 3: small hairs focus sunlight on the leaf where it is

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Speaker 3: diffusely reflected. The drop, acting in a manner similar to

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Speaker 3: the lens of a lighthouse, then collects a large fraction

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Speaker 3: of this diffusely reflected light that would have otherwise gone

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Speaker 3: in other directions, and sends it back toward the source

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Speaker 3: and the observer. So, in other words, the dewdrop acts

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Speaker 3: as a kind of focusing lens to reflect light directly

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Speaker 3: back at the sun. Again, that's one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 3: degrees the angle of reflection. Of course, when you look

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Speaker 3: out at a field in the sunlight, no light from

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Speaker 3: the sun is reflected to your eyes from exactly one

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty degrees because your head is in the

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Speaker 3: way right that's where your shadow is, so you're blocking

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Speaker 3: the exact one hundred and eighty reflection point. But light

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Speaker 3: reflected in droplets from right around your antisolar point can

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Speaker 3: be pretty close to one hundred and eighty degrees and

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Speaker 3: thus significantly brighter when the rays are focused by the

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Speaker 3: droplets like this than the light from all around. This

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Speaker 3: is especially true if the angle of the sun is

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Speaker 3: low and your shadow is long, and your antisolar point

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Speaker 3: on the ground is thus farther away from you. And

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Speaker 3: if you think about it for a minute, this makes

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Speaker 3: sense because as your shadow's head gets farther away from

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Speaker 3: your eyes because the sun is lower, the difference in

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Speaker 3: the angle between like your exact antisolar point and some

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Speaker 3: point on the ground maybe eight inches to the side

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Speaker 3: of it. That difference in angle becomes smaller and smaller

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Speaker 3: as the antisolar point gets farther away. You could compare

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Speaker 3: this to like if you are aiming a bow and

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Speaker 3: arrow at two targets that are one foot apart from

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Speaker 3: each other, You'll have to make a larger adjustment if

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Speaker 3: those targets are one foot apart from each other and

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Speaker 3: ten feet in front of you than you would if

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Speaker 3: they were one foot apart from each other and thirty

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Speaker 3: feet in front of you. That smaller adjustment in aim

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Speaker 3: is a smaller angle of difference. So this whole glow

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Speaker 3: around your shadow's head has to do with the angle

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Speaker 3: of reflected light hitting your eyes. It's closest to a

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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty degree angle of reflection near where

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Speaker 3: your shadow's head is, so the light fro reflected from

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Speaker 3: the surface around that area is brighter. If you could

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Speaker 3: see it, it would be brightest exactly where your head is,

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Speaker 3: but your head's in the way. One way of demonstrating

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Speaker 3: this actually visually, that's quite simple. As I've seen online.

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Speaker 3: Somebody takes a photo of themself with the Highligen shine

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Speaker 3: and the camera is right in front of their face,

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Speaker 3: and then they hold the camera away from their head

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Speaker 3: over to the side, and the glow is around the

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Speaker 3: camera and not around their shadows head.

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 3: One other tidbit from the American Meteorological Society entry. The

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Speaker 3: glossary entry, though, is that while it's entirely true that

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Speaker 3: this effect is much stronger on wet irregular surfaces like

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Speaker 3: dewy grass. There's actually weaker version of the shadow halo

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Speaker 3: effect that occurs even on dry surfaces. They write, quote,

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Speaker 3: when an observer's shadow is cast on a dry irregular

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Speaker 3: surface such as gravel or vegetation, each irregularity near the

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Speaker 3: antisolar point covers its own shadow in other directions. The

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Speaker 3: average brightness results from a mixture of sunlit and shaded surfaces.

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Speaker 3: The lower the sun in the sky, the longer the shadows,

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Speaker 3: and so the greater the contrast with the brighter region

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Speaker 3: near the antisolar point. So even if there's no dew,

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Speaker 3: you're still going to have the effect that if you

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Speaker 3: look around the world places that are farther away from

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Speaker 3: your antisolar point, you're going to be seeing light reflected

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Speaker 3: kind of bouncing in all directions from both brightly sunlit

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Speaker 3: areas and shaded areas. But when you're looking straight at

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Speaker 3: your antisolar point, the stuff right around there, you're pretty

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Speaker 3: much only going to be seeing non shaded areas because

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Speaker 3: shaded areas are blocked by the objects, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, All right, so's it sounds then like that Seleni

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Speaker 2: probably had a case here he was actually seeing this

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Speaker 2: optical phenomenon when he was out walking in the fields

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Speaker 2: and there was dew on the grass and so forth.

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Speaker 3: That's right, there's no reason to doubt his story that

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Speaker 3: he saw this. Lots of other people have seen it.

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Speaker 3: You can probably see it too in the right conditions. However,

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Speaker 3: I am doubtful about Chilini's claims that other people could

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Speaker 3: see his halo. Remember he says, like, I've showed it

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Speaker 3: to a few special people and they said, yes, it's there.

302
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Speaker 3: The hiligenshine is a phenomenon that is dependent on the

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Speaker 3: position of the viewer. It is not actually an object

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Speaker 3: out there in the world. Like you know, you and

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Speaker 3: I can stand and look at a tree from different

306
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Speaker 3: angles and both see the tree. The hiligenshine is about

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00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,399
Speaker 3: the angle of reflected rays of light hitting your eyes,

308
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Speaker 3: and the rays are actually being reflected in this manner

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Speaker 3: all over the surface of the Earth, the sunlit side

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Speaker 3: of the Earth. It just happens to be around your

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Speaker 3: shadow's head that you see it, because that's your particular

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Speaker 3: anti solar point. So I don't know. Maybe they could

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Speaker 3: see it if they got really close to him, like

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Speaker 3: cheek to cheek and then they'd be like, oh wow, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there is a glow around our heads. I'm curious how

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Speaker 3: close exactly you would have to be to see the

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Speaker 3: same thing. Maybe you don't have to be cheek to cheek,

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Speaker 3: but you'd basically have to be looking from the same

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Speaker 3: perspective that he is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess you can well imagine it

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Speaker 2: being a scenario where since it's a subtle enough effect,

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Speaker 2: if it was, if he's there like pointing it out

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Speaker 2: to you, you might say, Okay, I think I see something.

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Speaker 2: Or this is a guy that seemed to have a

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Speaker 2: very strong personality. Yes, and there were at least stories

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Speaker 2: about him stabbing people. You know, you might be inclined

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Speaker 2: to just be like, yeah, totally, I do see that

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Speaker 2: halo around your shadow. No, no, no, we don't have to.

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Speaker 2: I don't have to put my head next to yours.

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Speaker 2: It's fine. I got you.

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Speaker 3: I can see it too. Yes you're a genius, Yes

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Speaker 3: you're really cool. Yes that coat looks cool on you.

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00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,119
Speaker 2: Please put the dagger away.

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Speaker 3: So that's the Highligan shine. But I am I am

335
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,800
Speaker 3: so interested in this bombastic weirdo. I might try to

336
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 3: find another way to keep reading about Benvenuto Cellini and

337
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 3: see if I can bring him back to the show

338
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 3: in the future.

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Speaker 2: And then it sounds like a big character who had

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Speaker 2: a lot of thoughts about a lot of topics, So

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if he pops back up again.

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Speaker 2: All right, I want to come back to a couple

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Speaker 2: of things. In the last episode, we talked about people

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Speaker 2: and things that, due to some sort of supernatural reason,

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Speaker 2: do not cast a shadow, or a thought to not

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00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 2: cast a shadow, and how this is generally a comment

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Speaker 2: on something going on with their soul or thereof. As

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Speaker 2: I was telling my wife about all of this, she

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Speaker 2: was like, well, you've got to mention that episode of

350
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Speaker 2: The Simpsons. I believe this is the episode where Lisa

351
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Speaker 2: becomes a vegan for a little bit, or at least

352
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Speaker 2: she encounters a vegan. I know she becomes vegan for

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Speaker 2: an episode, but I can't remember if this is the

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Speaker 2: same episode.

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Speaker 3: I think she becomes a vegetan unless this happens more

356
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Speaker 3: than once. She becomes a vegetarian, and then she ruins

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00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: Homer's barbecue by how.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's another episode where she meets and

359
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 2: falls in love with a vegan who claims that he

360
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 2: is a level five vegan and he doesn't eat anything

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Speaker 2: that casts a shadow. Yes, now, I have to admit,

362
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes looking back, especially at vegetarian and vegan

363
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: jokes from the nineteen nineties, a lot of them hit

364
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 2: unnecessarily hard, and especially you know, as a vegetarian and

365
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: someone has lots of vegan friends, you know, I often

366
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 2: will be like, I think that's that's a much nineiest comedy.

367
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: But this one, I don't know. I've always liked this

368
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 2: one because you know, at one hand, it's a parody

369
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,439
Speaker 2: of it's poking fun at a particular dietary choice. But

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00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 2: on the other hand, this idea of eating something that

371
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 2: doesn't cast a shadow, it does line up with a

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Speaker 2: lot of what we were talking about, the idea that like, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is a creature with diminished or non existent personhood

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00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 2: and therefore or a plant. Even I guess more and

375
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: more likely it would be the scenario like this particular

376
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Speaker 2: stalk of corn that doesn't cast a shadow, and therefore

377
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Speaker 2: it is okay to eat corn from this plant. I

378
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 2: don't like a lot of comedy. If you think about

379
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: it too hard, it doesn't work. But I always found

380
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: it a bit funny, all right, So I had to

381
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: mention that one another thing, this is another one that

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Speaker 2: came up and talking about these episodes with my wife,

383
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: she said, oh, well, you've got to mention zero shadow days.

384
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Speaker 2: So it's worth noting that if you're standing in just

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00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: the right place at just the right time, you might

386
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 2: well encounter a world with I don't want to say

387
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 2: no shadows, but let's say significantly decrease shadow activity, like

388
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: if you were let's say you're an individual in a

389
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 2: supernatural horror show and you always have to be on

390
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: guard for shadow monsters climbing out of the shadows and

391
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: dragging you to hell. Well, these are the places you

392
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 2: would want to be because you would, I guess, have

393
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: fewer pools of shadow from which things might crop. As

394
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: pointed out on NASA's Night Sky Network website, this is

395
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: a reality of the solstice in the tropics between the

396
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn. Here people

397
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: experience two zero shadow days per year, so called when

398
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 2: the sun is directly overhead at solar noon, and this

399
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: makes objects and people cast a minimal shadow. It's often

400
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 2: been observed that you may have to jump in the

401
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 2: air to see your own shadow.

402
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: So it's not literally zero shadow, but it's as close

403
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: as it gets on Earth to zero shadow. Because the

404
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 3: sun is directly over so you're not casting. There's really

405
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 3: no horizontality to your shadow, right right.

406
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: No lengthen shadows for the most part. Yeah, it's a

407
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 2: minimal shadow activity.

408
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 3: Ooh. You know though, I wonder if you could say

409
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: that there's actually even less shadow on days when the

410
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: sun is obscured by clouds, because then the directionality of

411
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: light is greatly reduced and light is more just kind

412
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: of diffuse, So you know, there's much I guess you

413
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 3: still have a shadow, but it's much much less intense.

414
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: It's very faint, yeah, fainter shadows. And then of course

415
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: we also have to take into account our world of

416
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: so much modern illumination, artificial illumination, it's going to continue

417
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: to cast all sorts of interesting shadows as well. In fact,

418
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: that's kind of a defining aspect of sort of the

419
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: modern urban environment. You know, we've talked about that before,

420
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: these various realities and conceptions of the big city, you know,

421
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: having like gulches of shadow between skyscrapers that our position

422
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: too closely or don't taper off as they climb into

423
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 2: the sky, that sort of thing. And then you get

424
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: into various forms of artificial illumination, particularly at night. I mean,

425
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: this is a defining character of so many visuals that

426
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: we have with you know, from various noir films, you know,

427
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: where it's like this this shadowy night scape, urban nightscape

428
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: in which there are all these places where one may hide,

429
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: but also all these places where one will be starkly

430
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: illuminated and be in more vulnerable perhaps to the nighttime city.

431
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the environment of the modern city makes for

432
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: you can almost kind of recreate the striking lighting of

433
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 3: like stage effects, but within a realistic context, you know,

434
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: having like a dark street with a single street lamp

435
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: illuminating something. It's like a spotlight, but you know it's

436
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: plausible to reality.

437
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that classic what it's the the movie poster

438
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: for The Exorcist that way, you know, it's got a

439
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: sort of noir styling to the poster, but also it's like, hey,

440
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: here comes the Exorcist front and center, spotlights on you, buddy,

441
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: Time to put on a show for the devil.

442
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 3: The way he's got the bag. Yet it almost looks

443
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 3: like he's gonna put on like a costume and tap

444
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 3: dancing shoes or something like.

445
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: The suitcase is full of like prop comedy.

446
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, got a can of spring snakes.

447
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: Oh man, the devil won't see that kind of ye

448
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: with devil?

449
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 3: Would you like a boiled peanut?

450
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: Now, at this point, I'd like to get once more

451
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: into the world of art and shadow and get a

452
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: little bit into philosophy and history here as well. And yeah,

453
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: this is gonna be like a big tint discussion. I'm

454
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 2: not gonna get into all the details here, because ultimately,

455
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, shadows have always been with us. They've they're

456
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: never far from us. And so anytime throughout history when

457
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: you've had a particularly contemplative individual who's gonna indulge in

458
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: a bit of of navel gazing, the shadow was always

459
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: there to aid us. And yeah, there's been a lot

460
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: of deep thoughts about shadows, about what is and isn't

461
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: a shadow? Can you actually look at a shadow? Does

462
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: a moving bird cast one shadow or multiple shadows? And

463
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: so forth? And I'm not saying it isn't interesting, but

464
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: it all kind of started turning my brain upside down

465
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: after a bit, so I'm gonna skip around a bit here,

466
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: but I was initially reminded once more of our episode

467
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: on necromancy, or one of our episodes on necromancy, when

468
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: we briefly discussed shadow puppetry and its possible connections to

469
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: shamanistic practices and or necromancy in the sense of some

470
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: sort of ritualistic way of attempting to speak with the

471
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 2: dead or to create the illusion of speaking with the dead.

472
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: Right, So, the example from the necromancy episode was a

473
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 3: story about a Chinese emperor long ago who had a

474
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: sort of wizard like advisor who told him that he

475
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: could resurre the spirit of a concubine who he had

476
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: loved very much but who had passed away, and that

477
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: she could speak to him again, but she would appear

478
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: as like a shadow behind a screen, and that this

479
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: was attributed later to shadow puppetry.

480
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: Right, it's it's unknown exactly how this played out or

481
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 2: you know, ultimately you know how true this account is.

482
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: And there were some thoughts that it was like a

483
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: statue behind the screen or scrim that it was more

484
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: traditional shadow puppetry or that, and also disagreements over to

485
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: what extent the emperor would have been conned by this,

486
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,719
Speaker 2: but it's it's an interesting slice of history. But at

487
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: any rate, setting all that aside, shadow theater anyway you

488
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: slice it is an ancient performance are that probably began

489
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 2: in Central Asia or China or possibly India during the

490
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: first millennium BC. That's at least, I mean, who knows

491
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: ultimately how far back it goes, because of course people

492
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: along before that were aware of their shadows, and they

493
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: might have caught on to ways that you might manipulate

494
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: that shadow. So as it stands, shadow puppetry contains a

495
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: number of different styles and traditions, you know, their use

496
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: of puppets, cut out or otherwise. Also you have instances

497
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: where individuals are using their own bodies. I think the

498
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: most famous example of this is of course shadow graphy,

499
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: or the use of you know, like making a little

500
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: bunny out of your hands and far more complicated things

501
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: and then using that with light to create a shadow creature.

502
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: And then that's a you know, you may think of

503
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: that as just like a quick, little, you know, dad

504
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: trick or something, but it's actually a very refined craft

505
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: and it is likely it likely originated in China or

506
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: the Far East, as well.

507
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: In my limited recent experiences doing hand shadow puppetry for

508
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: my daughter. It's interesting the way that it's unlike some

509
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 3: other art forms in that by re shaping your hand

510
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: in front of the to block the light and looking

511
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 3: at the shadow, you can kind of get a instant,

512
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: continuous feedback on how close you're getting to the object

513
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: you're trying to represent as you move your hand around.

514
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's unlike I would say in my experience drawing,

515
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: which I'm not good at at all, which is a

516
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: more laborious path to the realization of the image, and

517
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: then if you make a mistake, it's laborious to undo

518
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: it and try to change it. With the shadow puppet,

519
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: I felt like my hand kind of became a form

520
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: of jelly that was just automatically adjusting itself to try

521
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: to look more and more like a dinosaur head.

522
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's probably worth keeping in mind, this act of

523
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: making your hand into this three dimensional object, this three

524
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: dimensional arrangement of digits that can then be manipulated in

525
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: three D space in order to change a two D

526
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: silhouette and make it resemble something else. We're thinking about

527
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: it when we get into a discussion of shadows as

528
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: truth and shhados as lies or manipulation. So at any rate,

529
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: I think you know shadow publishers worth thinking about here, though,

530
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: of course, we can easily become lost in discussions over

531
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: to what extent we're talking about shadow in these various

532
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: performances rather than shade, silhouette, translucent materials, et cetera. You know,

533
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: there's a lot going on in any given example of

534
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: shadow theater, But what about shadows elsewhere in art? This

535
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: is another huge topic that we're not going to be

536
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: able to do full justice too. But I was reading

537
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: a bit about this in a really excellent jay Store

538
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 2: article type Jaystore Daily article titled do We Actually See Shadows?

539
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: By Roy Sorensen, an article that I recommend for anyone

540
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: wanting a nice look at the various philosophical arguments over

541
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: whether we can see a shadow or not When you

542
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: look at a shadow, are you looking at something? Or

543
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: are you looking at nothing? That sort of thing.

544
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: This seems exactly the perfect kind of debate to like

545
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 3: occupy the minds and debates of medieval scholastics.

546
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so there's a great deal in there. This

547
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: article also gets into some of these theological discussions. What

548
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: does it mean that a shadow moves over the deep,

549
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: et cetera, but it covers a lot of ground in here.

550
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: At one point he mentions, quote, shadows were fringe phenomena

551
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: in the European Dark Ages. They are rarely depicted in

552
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: the era's paintings. Perhaps the artist portrayed only what they

553
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: believe to be visible. So coming back to this idea

554
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: that maybe a sort of negative view of the shadow

555
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: was maybe more predominant during this period of time.

556
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm having an idea. It's only sort of half formed,

557
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: but I'm thinking about how when you look at like

558
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: a medieval artwork that might to some modern critics appear

559
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: kind of primitive somehow, because it's like a maybe a

560
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: representation of a human that shows no optical effects or

561
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 3: effects of perspective at all. Like so it doesn't show

562
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: any difference is in illumination by the direction of light.

563
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 3: It doesn't have any shadows or anything like that. That

564
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: might look kind of unsophisticated as an artwork because it

565
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: doesn't show all the tricks and plays of light that

566
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: are so prized in the you know, in the passionate

567
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 3: realistic artworks of I don't know, the Renaissance or whatever.

568
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: But you could look at that and say, actually, by

569
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: taking out all of those light effects, that is a

570
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 3: that is a more highly processed visual representation. That is

571
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: what the brain. That is the information the brain is

572
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: trying to interpret in a scene, because, as we talked

573
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: about it in the last episode, the brain has to

574
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: kind of ignore a lot of things about shadows and

575
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: effects of light to try to just get information about

576
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: what are the physical objects in my space and what

577
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 3: are the physical agents in my space that I need

578
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 3: to understand as possibly having relevance to what I'm about

579
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: to do. You know, you need to be able to

580
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: see that there are two people standing in the room

581
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: in front of you, and there's a rock right there

582
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: that you could trip on, and not be confused by

583
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: shadows and changes in shading due to the position of

584
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 3: the light source. That might be literal differences that you

585
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 3: see with your eyes, but are not relevant information about

586
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: what the objects in your space are. So when you

587
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: see that artwork that is like a picture of a

588
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: person without any effects of light sources or shadows or

589
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 3: anything like that, that is kind of a mental representation

590
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: of a person. That's not how we actually see the world.

591
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so it's still a true image, but in

592
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 2: a different way. And again you can also factor into

593
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: these various discussions about whether or not we actually see

594
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: a shadow, that sort of thing. But Sorenson does get

595
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: back to the idea of shadow theater in ways that

596
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: I was not expecting. He writes, quote, if shadows were

597
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: not seen as figures, shadow plays would be as visually inert.

598
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: Shadows are enlivened by actions such as jumping, bowing, and kissing.

599
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: This animation raised medieval concerns about idolatry to appease the

600
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: pious puppets were perforated. The dots of light were reminders

601
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: that shadows are lifeless effects of positive causes.

602
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 3: Hmm, it seems like even if it's perforated, the principle remains.

603
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: But I don't know.

604
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 3: That just seems like one of those funny, kind of

605
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 3: ineffectual gesture is to try to appease somebody who just

606
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 3: wants to complain about something.

607
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it also reminds me of other

608
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: stories and tales we've read about where it's like, if

609
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: you don't complete a highly realistic painting, then it there's

610
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: less risk of it coming alive, Like, do not dot

611
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: the dragon's eye less the dragon climb out of the painting.

612
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: That sort of thing. Hmm. Now, it is true that

613
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: puppetry has at times raised the ire of iconoclasts and

614
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: raised fears of idolatry, though at the same it's also

615
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: been utilized by religious groups and it's still utilized by

616
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: religious groups today. I mean, puppetry is just generally speaking,

617
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: a performance medium that is very ancient and well entrenched

618
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: in human tradition. But I was curious about this idea

619
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: of perforation, the idea like we were discussing that, Okay,

620
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: here's this shadow thing we've created on the wall, but

621
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: don't worry, it has holes in it. It can't possibly

622
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: be real because, on one hand, outside of European context especially,

623
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: you see plenty of examples of shadow puppetry, thinking especially

624
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: of Indonesian traditions that depend on perforated puppets structures in

625
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: order to allow light to pass through and enhance the

626
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: overall effect. It's those holes, at least to me as

627
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: a viewer, they help bring the things alive more, not

628
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: make them seem less alive. I don't know where you

629
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: would stand on the argument of making it less real.

630
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: But I did find something written about this as it

631
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: concerns traditional Turkish shadow puppetry. This is from the article

632
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: Karagaz and Hazavat Projections of Subversion and Conformance by James Smith.

633
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: This was an Asian theater journal from back in two

634
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: thousand and four. The author writes Islamic Sufi thought, one

635
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 2: of the most powerful cultural forces within Islamic society from

636
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: the twelfth century on, also affected Karrago's performance. According to

637
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: Karragao's expert Linda Merceades, Turkish shadow puppetry was designed both

638
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: to entertain and to achieve religious experience, based on the

639
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: Sufi Islam doctrine that man is but a shadow manipulated

640
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: by his creator. The opening poem, typically recited by either

641
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: k or Hasavat, is a ghazal. The rules against forms

642
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 2: of representation expressed by the Quran in Surutu are fairly strict,

643
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 2: but Sufi clerics defended Karaga's performance a complex theological argument

644
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: formulated because Islam forbids the representation of animate beings, and furthermore,

645
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: because shadow puppets were perforated by holes, there was no

646
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: possible reason to think of shadow puppets as animate beings.

647
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: Thus shadow puppet shows could be performed. Now there's a

648
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: lot to process there that I think is just fascinating.

649
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: On one hand, this idea of human beings as shadows

650
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: cast by God, and thus God is far beyond us,

651
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: as a human being is beyond the substance of his

652
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: own shadow. I think that's all really really deep and

653
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: cool to think about. And we'll also see some reflections

654
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: of that in another religious example coming up. And then

655
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: we have this idea that, hey, puppets have holes in them,

656
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: and therefore they can't possibly be mistaken for living, animate creatures.

657
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 2: It's interesting as well, it seems again I still feel

658
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: like the holes overall in any given shadow puppetry example

659
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 2: they do aid to bring the thing to life more.

660
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to think of it as kind of

661
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:17,479
Speaker 2: like a theological loophole as well. All right, Now, moving

662
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: along to some other areas, this is another one that

663
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: I imagine is on listeners' minds already. It's worth at

664
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: least noting that Plato's allegory of the cave concerns shadow

665
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: images on a wall, essentially shadow puppets, I guess you

666
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: could say. And this of course, regards humanity's ability to

667
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: see beyond the material world and into something far greater.

668
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: So it's an allegory in which shadows on a wall

669
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 2: are taken for reality because there's no additional context for

670
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: the viewer to understand them. And we also have this

671
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: idea of shadows ultimately as something less than reality, something

672
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: that can mislead us about the true nature of reality.

673
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: Now they come back to visual art, Yeah, there is

674
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: often the lack of shadows, like we're then discus and

675
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: older works, unless shadow is key to the work itself.

676
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 2: During the Dark Ages, again, Soresen suggests that perhaps artists

677
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 2: were just more concerned with the visible as opposed to

678
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: the invisible world of shadows. But shadows would of course

679
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: become more popular again during the Renaissance as perspective became

680
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: increasingly important in works of Western art, and post Renaissance

681
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: shadows became just standard in all manner of Western art.

682
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: As William Chapman Sharp points out in a twenty seventeen

683
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 2: article for the Oxford University Press titled What's going On

684
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: in the Shadows? A Visual arts Timeline, you eventually get

685
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: to a point in the nineteenth century where standalone shadows

686
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 2: without an in picture source, so like the shadow is

687
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: cast by someone essentially out of frame or off screen.

688
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: If you will, these begin to pop up. He specifically

689
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: points to an eighteen thirty three p piece by William

690
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Collins that you can look up online titled Rustic Civility.

691
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: Oh boy, I don't know if this is the intended effect.

692
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm just in the Halloween mindset, but I'm finding

693
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: this painting rather spooky. So what we see here is

694
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: like a sort of road leading through a gate into

695
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: a wooded grove, and there's a house in the distance.

696
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 3: The gate is open, and there are three children standing

697
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: beside the gate. They're sort of like squinting in the sun.

698
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 3: I think one is holding up a holding up a

699
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: hand to block the sun over his eyes, and two

700
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: of the children seem to be kind of hiding behind

701
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: the third. And then we see in the foreground on

702
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,959
Speaker 3: the road just a shadow of a figure and a hat.

703
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: I think it's a man mounted on a horse. Maybe.

704
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: Yep, that's the impression I get.

705
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: We don't see the figure itself, we just see its shadow,

706
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: but it seems rather ominous.

707
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a valid interpretation. Again, I'm not

708
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 2: sure offhand what the artist's exact intent was here, but

709
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: you could look at this like, oh, Dad's home. Yeah,

710
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: the kids are excited. The kids don't look particularly fearful,

711
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 2: but they are they are children. Yeah. The other interpretation

712
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: is that this is a stranger and then therefore we

713
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 2: have no idea what the intent is. But we don't

714
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: see the individual in this in this, in this painting,

715
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: all we see is the shadow they cast on the

716
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: road in front of the children.

717
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: Well, I apologize to William Collins if I've read menace

718
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,959
Speaker 3: into his artwork that he did not intend. But yeah,

719
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 3: this is looking to me, this is kind of like

720
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: some of those paintings by Edward Hopper, like gas by

721
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 3: Hopper that just to me always look more and more

722
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: foreboding and ominous the more I look at them.

723
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but but nothing else. You know. It's

724
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: an example of a case where in a painting the

725
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: shadow is not merely incidental. The shadow is key to

726
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: the work. It's not just oh, it's nice that things

727
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: have shadows and people have shadows now like that. The

728
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: shadow is key to whatever the artist is trying to

729
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: say here. Now, once we reach the age of photography

730
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: and then cinema, of course, shadow becomes increasingly essential. In fact,

731
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 2: the author of this Oxford University Press piece sharp points

732
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: out that Henry Fox Talbot originally discussed photography as a

733
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: matter of fixing a shadow, and various others made this

734
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: connection between photography and shadow as well. I mean, you

735
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: can't engage in photography without at least thinking about shadows, right,

736
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: if not exploiting them and using them. One example though,

737
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: of people of the time period thinking about shadows and

738
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: photography apparently a poet Elizabeth Barrett wrote to a friend

739
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: in eighteen forty three that a photograph was like quote

740
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: the very shadow of the person lying there fixed forever.

741
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, going around with your cameras just snatching shadows

742
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: left and right. And then, of course, once we get

743
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: into the era of film, which we touched on earlier. You,

744
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: especially when you look at the work of German expressionists

745
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: during the Silent Era, they made terrific use of shadow.

746
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: Not only is just a way of capturing the mood,

747
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: but making them become an active part of the visual narrative,

748
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: which of course brings us back to Nosferatu, and you

749
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: know those scenes of Nosferatu, the vampire creep or I

750
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: guess his name's not nos Faratu, It's called crown Count

751
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: Orlock or creeping up the stairs. His shadow lengthened and menacing.

752
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: The shadow is an active part of the narrative that

753
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: is being presented on the screen. Now rewinding things a bit.

754
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: Our old friend Plenty of the Elder famously chimed in

755
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: on the role of shadow in art. In the natural history,

756
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: he shares the story of the Corinthian Butedes, who allegedly

757
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: invented the art of modeling via shadow, or at least

758
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: the art of modeling clay in relief utilizing shadow. In

759
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: translation quote, it was through his daughter that he made

760
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: the discovery, who, upon being deeply in love with a

761
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: young man about to depart on a long journey, traced

762
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: the profile of his face as thrown upon the wall

763
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: by the light of the lamp. Upon seeing this, her

764
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: father filled in the outline by compressing clay upon the surface,

765
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: and so made a face in relief, which he then

766
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 2: hardened by fire along with other articles of pottery.

767
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, but so I would think via that method

768
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: you could only get a two dimensional silhouette, not a

769
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 3: three dimensional cast right.

770
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: Right right, So he would have to add in additional

771
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 2: details via his craft, but he would have at least

772
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: some aspect at least the silo out of the individual

773
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 2: is captured on the wall. So it's interest especially when

774
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: you sort of compare it to Plato. And again, Plato

775
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 2: is making other points. Plato's not just talking about, hey,

776
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: let me tell you all about shadows and what they're

777
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: up to. He's using it to make a different point.

778
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 2: But instead of shadow being a dangerous deceiver regarding the

779
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: true nature of reality, in this case, it actually allows

780
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 2: reality to at least a certain degree, be captured, to

781
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: be recreated or duplicated. This story would apparently become a

782
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: popular painting subject in and of itself in the eighteenth

783
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: century and again because you're getting into a time period

784
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 2: where painters want to make use of shadow, and here

785
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: here is a story about artistic creation or recreation via shadow.

786
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: So it's a perfect topic to consider in your art

787
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: in the topic itself, and the idea of using silhouettes

788
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: and shadow in portraits also became popular again in this

789
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: time period. All right, And finally, I want to return

790
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: back to the world of shadows and mythology and religion

791
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: here just for a couple of examples that I didn't

792
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: turn up earlier that turned out kind of late in

793
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: my research. They're both really good. First of all, is

794
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 2: the idea that in Hinduism there is a Hindu goddess

795
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: of shadows and her name is Chaia, and Chaia is

796
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: an interesting goddess from Hinduism. She is the cast shadow

797
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: of the goddess surround you that the first wife of

798
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: the sun and the sun god Surya, and I've seen

799
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: some treatments that discuss her as a sort of shadow clone.

800
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: I've seen the word clone used a lot. She becomes

801
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 2: Surya's wife after the first wife, Saranyu, temporarily temporarily leaves him,

802
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: and together they actually, the shadow wife here and the

803
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: son actually have three children. He has other children with

804
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: other wives, but at different points. But yeah, they they

805
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: he has three children with the shadow wife. But anyway,

806
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: this idea of like the shadow actually taking on the

807
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 2: likeness of that which casts the shadow is really interesting.

808
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: And then finally this is really interesting as well. I'd

809
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: read a little bit about this before, certainly, but the

810
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: idea of the shadow in ancient Egyptian religion and culture

811
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 2: is also fascinating. The shadow is it would be called

812
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 2: a shut or I've seen it. I think it's pronounced shut,

813
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: but it's sometimes spelled swt in English translation. And you know,

814
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: it should come as no surprise that many of the

815
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: same elements we've discussed already concerning shadows in these episodes

816
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: also is in play here. So first of all, the

817
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: idea of the shadow as darkness, you know, they're almost

818
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: used interchangeably in a lot of languages and traditions. But

819
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 2: then of course we have the idea of the shadow

820
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: as the soul, or in the case of the ancient

821
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: Egyptian religion, one aspect of the human soul alongside at

822
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: least the ba. So the shadow or shoot is more

823
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 2: spiritual in nature, while the ba is more physical, or

824
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 2: at least that's the rough overview of it. The concepts

825
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: of the soul and ancient Egyptian religion are rather complicated

826
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 2: and have multiple.

827
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: Parts to them.

828
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: And then also the idea of the shadow as a

829
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 2: copy of something, and particularly it's interesting with the idea

830
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: of a shadow of a god as a kind of

831
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: manifestation of the god. So apparently a statue of a

832
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: god was sometimes discussed as a shadow, and even a

833
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: temple to a god was considered that God's shadow. All right.

834
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: So I don't think any of those ideas comes as

835
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 2: a complete shocker or anything. But there are two additional

836
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: contexts here that that I thought were rather fascinating. One

837
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 2: is that shadows are associated with quick movement without any sound,

838
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: which I suppose is key given this. You know, the

839
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: speedy and silent movement of the shadow, a thing that,

840
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 2: according to may Ahmed Hasani in light, darkness and shadow

841
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: in ancient Egypt was considered a physical entity. So it

842
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: was largely thought like the shadow as being more or

843
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:44,479
Speaker 2: less physical in form.

844
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: So it's like a substance that moves, but it does

845
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 3: so without making a sound and even without generating a breeze.

846
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, a lot of what we've discussed in terms

847
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 2: of supernatural and mythic and religious treatments of shadows, you know,

848
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: they get down to some sort of deep metaphysical truth.

849
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 2: You know, it's connected to the soul or it is

850
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 2: connected to the darkness. Right, So this last bit I

851
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 2: found very fascinating, and this is something that Hasti mentions

852
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: in the article. The idea that also to the ancient Egyptians,

853
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 2: shadow was associated with protection from the sun and the heat.

854
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: And also when you start factoring in these various divine invocations,

855
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 2: it becomes a metaphor for the protection of the gods,

856
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: you know. So it's one of those things that once

857
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 2: it's pointed out to you, it seems kind of like

858
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 2: a no brainer, because obviously, under the intense Egyptian sun,

859
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 2: shadow is also a refuge, it's a place of protection

860
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 2: or rest. But yeah, you factor in these divine aspects

861
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 2: and so, you know, Hasting points out that shadow becomes

862
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 2: a symbolic word for protection from the sun god, a

863
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: metaphor for protection in general, in addition to being part

864
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 2: of a human being's essence that survives moral death.

865
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so you can see how that complex of

866
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: different symbols converging could generate some very interesting, I don't know,

867
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: mythological grammar, like the idea that the shadow is both

868
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: a reflection like sort of a soul copy of a person,

869
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 3: but it is also the place in which you could

870
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 3: stand to be sheltered by that person.

871
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, So this idea of like, step into my

872
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 2: shadow would be an an invitation to enter into my protection.

873
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 2: That sort of thing. And then we also get back

874
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: to this idea that we referenced earlier about like a

875
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: shadow of something, especially if we're talking about a god,

876
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: a divine being of some sort, like the shadow is creation,

877
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 2: the shadow is replication, at least to some lesser extent.

878
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see that.

879
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: So just some final mythological and religious ideas about shadows,

880
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: I think to sort of take us home for these episodes.

881
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: It's been fascinating to go through all this. There were

882
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 2: a lot of things I expected to find and expected

883
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 2: to see other takes in the shadow that I I

884
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: just was blisifully unaware of, or you know, we're not

885
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 2: in the forefront of my mind when we first ventured

886
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: into it. I know we didn't even we didn't even

887
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: really get into any I guess real shadow monsters we

888
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: talked about, not in like the sort of dungeons and

889
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: dragons sense of the word. I did a little bit

890
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: of looking around to see about mentions of shadows and

891
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: shades and a couple of my favorite monster guides and

892
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: so forth, but nothing else really came up. Maybe I

893
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: missed something. It also can get a little difficult to

894
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: research things related to the word shadow because of course,

895
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: shadow is used so frequently to refer to things that

896
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 2: are not specifically shadows, or things that are just metaphorically shadows.

897
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 3: I'm sure some of you out there are thinking of

898
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 3: a shadow monster right now that you want to tell

899
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 3: us about, right in.

900
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 2: That's right, send us your shadow monsters. We'd love to

901
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 2: talk about them in a future listener Mail episode. All right, Well,

902
00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: on that note, we're going to go ahead and close

903
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: out this episode, but yeah, write in, we'd love to

904
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: hear from you. On Mondays we do listener Mail. Tuesdays

905
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 2: and Thursdays are core episodes. On Wednesdays we do a

906
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: short form monster fact or artifact episode, and on Fridays

907
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 2: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about

908
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. Also, I want

909
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: to stress hey, you might have noticed that we have

910
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: new host photos for Stuff to Blow your Mind. If

911
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: you haven't seen them, run by our recently revived social

912
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 2: media presences all linked off of Stuff to Blow Yourmind

913
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: dot com, or you can look them up independently. Maybe

914
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 2: you already follow them. We are STBYM podcast on Instagram,

915
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: so you can go there. You can see these new

916
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: photos of Joe and myself. If you're wondering, well, where

917
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 2: did you take these fabulous and strange photos with these cool,

918
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: weird mirrors and so forth, Well, we visited Museum of

919
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: Illusions Atlanta, a delightful and educational attraction located in Atlantic Station.

920
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: They feature a whole host of visual illusions, including illusion

921
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: rooms you can walk into an interact with, and that

922
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 2: includes use the cameras there or your own cameras to

923
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: take some selfies and some cool shots. This is a

924
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: real fun place, good for all ages, the whole family.

925
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: These are not scary mirror rooms. These are awe inspiring

926
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 2: mirror rooms. These are whimsical mirror based illusions and other

927
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: sorts of illusions that you encounter.

928
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not like a creepy haunted house though. Well

929
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if they do something for October. Maybe

930
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 3: they do, but.

931
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 2: It is I think they put some some decorations up now.

932
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 2: The other thing is, since a number of the rooms

933
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 2: do involve mirrors, if you yourself are creepy, then I'm

934
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 2: afraid that your experience might be creepy because it will

935
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 2: be built upon your own reflection, and if you have

936
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: lost your reflection, due to some sort of wizardry, mishap

937
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 2: or undead status. Well, I don't think you can get

938
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 2: your money back.

939
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 3: It's a great place to find that out though, Yes.

940
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: So yeah. If you want to learn more about Museum

941
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 2: of Illusions Atlanta, visit MOI Atlanta dot com.

942
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: It's a great place check it out. Huge Things, as

943
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 3: always are excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would

944
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 3: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

945
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for

946
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 3: the future, or just to say hello, you can email

947
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 3: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

948
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

949
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

950
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.