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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Just spent your entire

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Speaker 1: life educating children. You know, I don't mean in a

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Speaker 1: normal classroom. I'm talking about in the library, servicing children

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Speaker 1: for maybe a couple of decades, where you're teaching them

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Speaker 1: how to read, one of the most basic things in

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Speaker 1: the world. You're beloved in school, and not just in

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Speaker 1: the school, but in the community at large. And suddenly

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Speaker 1: one morning your husband wakes up and find you dead

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Speaker 1: in the bed next to him, and you're only forty

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Speaker 1: nine years old. Today we're gonna talk about the Tammy

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Speaker 1: Day Bell case. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his

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Speaker 1: body backs back with me again. Today is my good

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Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell us about the Tammy Day Bell case? Joe?

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Speaker 1: The death of Tammy Day Bell came seemingly out of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: In fact, in everyday life, Tammy Day Bell was a

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Speaker 1: healthy individual. In fact, she was training for a five

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Speaker 1: k race. Yet her husband, Chad Dave Bell, woke up

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Speaker 1: called saying that his wife was dead in the bed

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Speaker 1: next to him. No autopsy was done, no talk screen

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Speaker 1: was done. Nothing was done by the investigative team other

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Speaker 1: than to say that Tammy Day Bell was dead. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of one of the basic guiding principles in any

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Speaker 1: medical legal death investigation, Jackie, is that when someone is

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Speaker 1: actually found to cease, that is someone that doesn't just

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Speaker 1: you know how people turn it sometimes keel over dead,

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Speaker 1: you need to have a representative of the corner the

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Speaker 1: medical legal community, the corner of the medical examiner to

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Speaker 1: show up on the scene. And the reason is is

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Speaker 1: that you get one shot at this. When I teach

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Speaker 1: my classes, I talked about you can only enter a

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Speaker 1: room for the very first time. That is, you can

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Speaker 1: only cross that threshold one time. After that that moment's gone,

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Speaker 1: and those things that you decided to do at that

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Speaker 1: moment time are critical. And in Tammy Day Bell's case,

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Speaker 1: there's a thread that runs through the entire thing, the family,

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Speaker 1: even the corner, the police that were in the scene

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Speaker 1: that kept using the term appears to be consistent with

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Speaker 1: the natural death. And when that, when that's put forward,

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Speaker 1: you have to ask this question, Jackie, had the corner

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Speaker 1: come to that conclusion? How did how did this corner

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Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that Tammy Day Bell's death was

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Speaker 1: a natural death, because once you say that, once you

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Speaker 1: say that this is a natural death, that convinces the

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Speaker 1: family that you know, there's no need to go any further.

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Speaker 1: But you have to have an answer for that. You

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Speaker 1: have to be able to fill out a death certificate.

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Speaker 1: What are you gonna put down, suddenly died, God called

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Speaker 1: the end of life. Now you have to have substance

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Speaker 1: for reasons. And the reason this is so important is

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Speaker 1: that Tammy David was only forty nine years of age, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: Like you said, she was training to run in a race.

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Speaker 1: And if if you can do that, then that means

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Speaker 1: that more than likely you're not having some kind of

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Speaker 1: cardiac event that's ongoing. Because you know, the number one

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Speaker 1: killer in America is actually a cause of death, is

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Speaker 1: actually related to cardiac disease. There's no indication of that whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: And from what we're hearing what we're hearing, the only

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Speaker 1: official that actually showed up at the scene of her

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Speaker 1: death were members of the local sheriff's office, and and

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Speaker 1: they said, These deputies said, well, it appears to be

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Speaker 1: consistent with the natural death. Well, you know, my question

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Speaker 1: to that is, how can a deputy shaff in this

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Speaker 1: tiny little community look at a body, not knowing anything

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Speaker 1: about the medical history of this individual, and say, well,

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Speaker 1: everything appears to be consistent with the natural death. Did

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Speaker 1: this individual have some kind of special insight? No, they didn't.

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Speaker 1: They worked upon an assumption and then the base law

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Speaker 1: the basics of this the corner violet. They didn't even

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Speaker 1: show up to the scene from what we're hearing, And

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Speaker 1: it's just important. And this is why. First off, you've

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Speaker 1: got this woman that has died in her sleep. You

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Speaker 1: have no good reason, at least scientific reason to hang

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Speaker 1: your hat on at this moment time, and you're just

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Speaker 1: gonna release her directly from the scene. And one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things about conducting a death investigation from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of the corners, you have to see that

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Speaker 1: body in context. So what does that mean? I want

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Speaker 1: to see the body on the bed where there were found.

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Speaker 1: I want to see the body on the floor if

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Speaker 1: that's where they're found, adjacent to the bed. Is there

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Speaker 1: something that happened during the night when no one else

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Speaker 1: was witnessing this event that could give me clues as

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Speaker 1: a trained medical legal death investigator, as to what brought

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Speaker 1: about the end of her life and you know, was

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Speaker 1: there some kind of trauma that was sustained. Was their

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Speaker 1: blood on the pillow? Will never know that. But besides that,

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Speaker 1: we've got another issue. We don't know what the post

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Speaker 1: mortem interval is. And that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we do that's critical. Okay, you just threw one out

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Speaker 1: at me, post mortem interval. What the hey? Well with

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Speaker 1: post mortem interval, Jackie. What that means is when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about we've got three areas that we deal in

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Speaker 1: in medical legal death death investigation. We talked about anti mortem,

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Speaker 1: which think of a like an anti chamber in a

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Speaker 1: in a pyramid. That means the precursor. That's gonna mean

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Speaker 1: anti mortem before death. And then we have an event

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Speaker 1: that's called perimortem, which kind of means in the throws up.

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Speaker 1: That's like in the in the midst of the fatal event.

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Speaker 1: You're not quite dead yet, but you're in that kind

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Speaker 1: of lingering mode. There, say, an individual that is bleeding out,

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Speaker 1: that has sustained a gunshot wound um and then you

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Speaker 1: have post mortem. Well, post mortem means that period of

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Speaker 1: time from when your heart ceased beating until the moment

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Speaker 1: time when you're finally discovered by the authorities, and so

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Speaker 1: we have to be able to measure that. And the

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Speaker 1: way that we measure that is examining the body by

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Speaker 1: determining postmorum temperature, that is, how cool or warm the

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Speaker 1: body is to the touch. And also we can use

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Speaker 1: thermometers to facilitate that because what we know is the

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Speaker 1: body once once your heart stops beating, you begin to

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Speaker 1: bleed energy out until like the twelve hour after death,

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Speaker 1: and after that all of the energy and the heat

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Speaker 1: that your body is generated is gone. And at that

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Speaker 1: point you are just like any other um element of

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Speaker 1: a room room, say, for instance, a piece of furniture,

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Speaker 1: the bed, You're impacted directly by the environmental temperature. That

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Speaker 1: means your temperature or your body is gonna rise and

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Speaker 1: fall just like it would on a chair or end

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Speaker 1: table or something like that. And then after that we

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Speaker 1: have to do an assessment on the rider mortis that

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Speaker 1: is the stiffness in the body, how stiff is a body,

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Speaker 1: And that's done at a measured interval, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it starts in the small muscles of the face and

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Speaker 1: and then it extends out to the to the peripheral

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Speaker 1: areas like the legs and the elbows and all these

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. It kind of starts at the same

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Speaker 1: time and all the muscle groups. But you first appreciated

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Speaker 1: in the smaller muscles. And then we talked about stuff

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Speaker 1: like uh, postmortem ravidity or the settling of blood. You

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Speaker 1: and I have talked about that a lot, Jackie, and

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Speaker 1: and that again happens at a measured interval. None of

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Speaker 1: this stuff was done so at the end of the

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Speaker 1: day when you're doing a scene assessment on the body.

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Speaker 1: And in this particular case and Tammy day Bell's case,

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Speaker 1: guess what, we got a big fat doughnut here. There's

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Speaker 1: no data. There's no data whatsoever, no scientific data to

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Speaker 1: back this up so that we can make a determination

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Speaker 1: as to how long this individual has been dead the

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Speaker 1: context in which their body was found. Now, one very

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Speaker 1: interesting piece of this is that Tammy's kids, they were

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Speaker 1: in attendance. What we're hearing is that the children actually

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Speaker 1: came to the home after they had been notified that

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Speaker 1: their mom had passed on. And one little comment really

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Speaker 1: caught my ear in the midst of all of this.

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Speaker 1: One of the children at that point time is reported

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Speaker 1: to have said that Tammy had something coming out of

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Speaker 1: her nose potentially out of her mouth, and it sounded

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Speaker 1: to me, Jackie like what we referred to as a

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Speaker 1: frothy odemitus cone. Well, you're throwing those big ones out.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, anytime we see this kind

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Speaker 1: of and if people just a age and almost like

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Speaker 1: the head of a beer, if you will, you know

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Speaker 1: how when you pour beer too fast and that foam

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Speaker 1: kind of creeps up to the top. Um, it's froth

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Speaker 1: You've heard that term before. UH. Horses get frothy when

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Speaker 1: they run real fast. But this can happen in the

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Speaker 1: midst of a fatal event in which there is some

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Speaker 1: type of respiratory distress that's going on, where, for instance,

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Speaker 1: individuals having trouble breathing. UH. It can happen in the

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Speaker 1: event of some kind of UH direct asphyxial event, like

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Speaker 1: a suffocation or like a strangulation UH smothering, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. It can happen in certain cases relative to

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Speaker 1: UH utilizing drugs. We see it a lot in heroin

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Speaker 1: overdose victims because what we do know is that heroin,

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Speaker 1: for instance, depresses the respiratory UH system and so the

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Speaker 1: lung has become very very heavy. At that point in time,

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Speaker 1: you're really struggling to breathing. You know what, l what

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Speaker 1: other area that you see this in, Jackie, We actually

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Speaker 1: see it in drowning victims when we take a body

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Speaker 1: out of a body of water and pull them up

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Speaker 1: on the bank of say a lake or or river.

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Speaker 1: It's really kind of odd to see this. But suddenly

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Speaker 1: this frothiodemitist cone begins to emerge from the nose in

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Speaker 1: the mouth, and it's almost kind of kind of a

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Speaker 1: pink color to it, and that's again an indication that

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Speaker 1: something has compromised the respiratory system. And in Tammy's case,

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Speaker 1: I would want to go back and take a look

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Speaker 1: at this and say, well, oh my gosh, what in

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Speaker 1: the world would have impacted this forty nine year old, healthy, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: vibrant woman who's loved by all of these folks, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't have any kind of physical uh complaints and no

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Speaker 1: kind of medical history anything like that. What would have

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Speaker 1: brought her to this end suddenly in her death? You

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Speaker 1: know what, those answers could very well have been buried

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Speaker 1: with her. Jackie, Jackie, I gotta say that with Tammy's death,

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Speaker 1: we've and I know it's cliche to say this, but

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Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, we've we've

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Speaker 1: got far more questions than we do answers um and

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Speaker 1: all because one simple action was not taken, and that

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Speaker 1: is somebody picking up their car key's, getting in their

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Speaker 1: car and driving out to the scene of her death.

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Speaker 1: As as the content area expert for that particular county,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about the corner you were reading my

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Speaker 1: mind joke as a cut a couple of specific questions here.

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Speaker 1: We know, Joe, as we've been talking about that the

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Speaker 1: corner did not go to the scene. First off, there

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Speaker 1: is a difference between a corner and a medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: and in this county, Fremont County, it is a corner

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Speaker 1: that attends death. Not only does that raise questions that

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Speaker 1: she did not attend to the seeing Idaho does not

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Speaker 1: require autopsies. The family said no to an autopsy and

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Speaker 1: that was it. There's just so many questions there, Joe,

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Speaker 1: about how Tammy day Bell tied. Yeah, there are, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's really amazing, Jackie, when you begin to think

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Speaker 1: about how the decision by one individual can impact multiple

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Speaker 1: cases and as we well know, the day bell saga

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Speaker 1: that goes on and on and on. There seems like

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Speaker 1: their bodies all over the place. And in my estimation

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Speaker 1: this is one of certainly the most curious out of

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Speaker 1: all of them. And you're right, you are in that

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Speaker 1: Idaho is a corner state. That means that the official

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Speaker 1: death investigator, that is the medical legal death investigator also

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Speaker 1: referred to as the certifier of death for that county,

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Speaker 1: is an elected official And there are many, many, wonder

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Speaker 1: all corners all across this this this country. It is

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Speaker 1: up to the corner at that moment in time to

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Speaker 1: make a decision about what is going to be the

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Speaker 1: disposition of the body. And what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is is the body going to be released from the

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Speaker 1: scene nothing else is going to be pursued, or is

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Speaker 1: the body going to be sent And in this case,

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Speaker 1: the body Tammy Davel's body would have been sent to

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Speaker 1: the Ada County Corner's office, which is rather large county,

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Speaker 1: which is where Boise is and that's where the autopsies

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Speaker 1: are done. Uh. They kind of the best way to

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Speaker 1: say is a subcontract to do all of the autopsies

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Speaker 1: for this little county Fremont County, that choice wasn't made.

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Speaker 1: The former was made. They decided the corner deside to

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Speaker 1: release that body from the scene and sent directly to

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Speaker 1: the funeral home. And what they're saying their default position

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Speaker 1: is saying, well, the family didn't want an autopsy. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me break this down for you. Yeah, the family

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Speaker 1: may not have wanted an autopsy, but at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, when you have a death investigation involving

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Speaker 1: a forty nine year old woman who you know, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, there are other mysterious events that are going

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Speaker 1: on around this body. It relies. It comes down to

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Speaker 1: this corner making that decision, and they are hard decisions.

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Speaker 1: That's why you get elected to this office. To go

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Speaker 1: ahead and even if it doesn't abide by the wishes

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Speaker 1: of the family, you go ahead and you do this autopsy,

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Speaker 1: because if you don't, as we're seeing played out right

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Speaker 1: before us, you wind up with a gigantic mess on

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Speaker 1: your hand. That means that after this period of time

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Speaker 1: which everybody knows, Tammy day Bell was sent from Idaho,

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Speaker 1: eventually wound up in a graveyard down in Utah and

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Speaker 1: she's buried. So now you've got all kinds of other

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Speaker 1: complications that come in if you want to examine her body.

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Speaker 1: Now you've got to have her exhumed. And there is

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Speaker 1: the big problem, Joe, because with burial comes the preparation

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Speaker 1: of the body to be buried. At that point, if

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Speaker 1: she had been poisoned, if she had overdosed, if she

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Speaker 1: had any chemical in her body, that evidence is destroyed now.

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Speaker 1: And Jackie, in this particular case, this is another example

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Speaker 1: of if only, if only another decision had been made,

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Speaker 1: so we know that that there was a bad decision

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Speaker 1: made at the scene of Tammy Davil's death. All Right,

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Speaker 1: the body is released, it has to go to the

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Speaker 1: funeral home because you're you're not gonna be able to

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Speaker 1: transport her body across state lines without that body being embolved.

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Speaker 1: All right, there was another opportunity here. The corner could

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Speaker 1: have gone to the funeral home. And some reports say

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Speaker 1: that she did at that point in time what she saw.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. Obviously she felt comfortable enough at

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Speaker 1: that moment time to release the body. But I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what she didn't do, Jackie. We have these big

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Speaker 1: needles that we use, these big syringes, if you will,

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Speaker 1: the needle itself is actually called a ten gage needle,

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Speaker 1: and people at home may or may not know what

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Speaker 1: it is, but it's a brother large needle. It's not

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Speaker 1: something you would give an injection with, say, if you're

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Speaker 1: going to see your your family practitioners. Rather large. It's

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Speaker 1: what we're use in the morgue. We can go to

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Speaker 1: a funeral home and I've done this any number of

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Speaker 1: times and take a ten gage needle with a large

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Speaker 1: syringe and you go right through the breastplate and you

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Speaker 1: go into the order and you directly draw heart blood.

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Speaker 1: If you can't get heart blood out of the a

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Speaker 1: order you can go into you can do a slight

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Speaker 1: incision and draw out femeral blood. Now that's better than nothing.

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Speaker 1: What else you can do with the more you can

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Speaker 1: actually and this this means that you're not doing an autopsy,

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Speaker 1: you're not having to open the body. We do all

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Speaker 1: of this externally. We can take a similar needle and

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Speaker 1: go directly externally into the roof of the bladder if

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Speaker 1: you will, and draw out urine that wasn't done. If

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Speaker 1: you can't get that, we can always go of the eyes.

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Speaker 1: And what are the eyes do? Well? They're filled with

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Speaker 1: what's referred to as vitreous fluid, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people aren't familiar with that. It's got a real kind

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Speaker 1: of cyclical rate. It doesn't it doesn't metabolize things, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, like the blood does. It just kind of

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Speaker 1: it kind of sits there and kind of slowly kind

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Speaker 1: of churns in this area. And it it's what gives

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Speaker 1: our I form. But what's really interesting about it is

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Speaker 1: it holds on uh to certain chemicals that we can

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Speaker 1: actually go in and conduct toxicological studies on. That wasn't done, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: They missed the boat on that point too. So now

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, as you mentioned, you've got all these

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Speaker 1: other people that are now touching the body, You've got

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Speaker 1: these funeral directors that are handling the body, the embalmer

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Speaker 1: that's going to be setting things up to start this

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Speaker 1: embalming process. And you know, I've had a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that have asked me, but we'll look, Morgan. You know,

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Speaker 1: why couldn't they just go back and draw talks on her?

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Speaker 1: You know, after she's been exhumed. You can't. It's an

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Speaker 1: empirical impossibility, Dina. Why because of all the blood is gone,

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Speaker 1: every single drop of it. Because the way embalming works,

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Speaker 1: it's a gravity driven process. They have a little pump

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Speaker 1: that pumps this embalming fluid into the body. It starts

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Speaker 1: up high, it comes down low, and so as they're

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Speaker 1: pumping the body, they're infusing it with this embalming fluid.

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Speaker 1: It's pushing all the blood out of the body. And

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Speaker 1: they have this return where they use these large metal trocars.

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Speaker 1: They're called to start this, to start this event, and

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Speaker 1: they're pulling the blood out of the body. And when

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Speaker 1: that when that fluid turns clear, you know that all

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Speaker 1: the blood is gone and the body is embalmed. So

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Speaker 1: you can't go back after the fact. And if you've

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Speaker 1: never if you've never actually placed your hands onto an

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Speaker 1: embalmed body, it's impacted by these chemicals, and rightly so,

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Speaker 1: because embalming the process itself turns the body very, very firm.

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Speaker 1: It preserves the body. The folks at home will just

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Speaker 1: imagine many times what an overinflated basketball feels like. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of the same texture that an embalmed body has.

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Speaker 1: It's got it's it's kind of it's very firm, but

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Speaker 1: yet it still has kind of a supple nature to it,

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Speaker 1: but you're not going to get anything out of that

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Speaker 1: body that is really worth having relative to fluids for toxicology.

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Speaker 1: There might be a saving grace if they can go

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Speaker 1: in and capture some of the tissue and look at

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Speaker 1: it microscopically, but again it's a long shot. When a

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Speaker 1: body is embalmed and the chemicals are flushed throughout the body,

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Speaker 1: it is going in through the veins. Is it going

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Speaker 1: into the organs and to the tissue as well? Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is. And I've been involved in many what are

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Speaker 1: referred to as exhimations where you take the body, um

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Speaker 1: you removed, the body is exhumed, and the body comes

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Speaker 1: back to the morgue. And many times this happens as

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Speaker 1: a result of the bodies uh not previously being an autopsy,

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Speaker 1: just like in this case. And when you get that

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Speaker 1: body out of the ground and you bring the body

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Speaker 1: back to the morgue where you're going to do the

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Speaker 1: autopsy again, when you not only is the external body

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Speaker 1: kind of firm to the touch, and it's got this

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Speaker 1: uh it's a smell that never leaves you. It's not

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Speaker 1: like a decomposition. It's got this real sickly sweet odor

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Speaker 1: to it, and that's the embalming fluid. And when you

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Speaker 1: open the body, uh, it just kind of slaps you

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Speaker 1: right in the face and you have to kind of

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Speaker 1: get past it, because when I say it's sickly sweet,

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Speaker 1: I'll put it to you this way. In my experience,

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Speaker 1: I would much rather be around a decomposed body than

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Speaker 1: I would an embalmed body. That's how sickening smells. I

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Speaker 1: listened to you and Nancy talk a lot about how

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Speaker 1: bad a decomposed body smells and how that is such

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Speaker 1: a distinctive odor that you ever forget and never want

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Speaker 1: to smell again. But you're telling me that an exhumed

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Speaker 1: body is worse. To me, it is and this is

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Speaker 1: why when when I go in as a scientist and

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Speaker 1: I am examining a decomposed body and yet they are foul,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is really difficult to work in that environment.

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Speaker 1: But you understand that this is a natural biological process

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Speaker 1: that you're dealing with, okay, uh, But when you start

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Speaker 1: dealing with a uh, with a previously embalmed body, there's

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Speaker 1: something that's very unnatural about it, and it has again

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Speaker 1: like this sickly sweet smell. And one other factor to

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Speaker 1: it for me has always been in the back of

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Speaker 1: my mind when I first started the chemicals that were

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Speaker 1: being used. There was some evidence at that point in

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Speaker 1: time that these many of these these chemicals that were

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Speaker 1: being used, particularly a long long time ago UH two

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Speaker 1: inbalm bodies were carcinogenic. So you know, you're sitting there

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to keep your mind focused on the side.

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Speaker 1: It's this this examination that you're doing, but you're all

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Speaker 1: the while you're thinking, well, what in the heck am

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Speaker 1: I inhalating here with this sickly sweet kind of odor

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Speaker 1: of death? If you will. That's that's a man made

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Speaker 1: event that is uh on on every level for me,

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Speaker 1: at least very important Jackie. One of the biggest hurdles

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Speaker 1: that that these forensic scientists are going to have to

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Speaker 1: kind of negotiate as as this investigation into Tammy Davel's

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Speaker 1: death um UH continues on, is this idea that her

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Speaker 1: body has been embolved, and not only has the body

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Speaker 1: been embalmed, but the body has been buried. The body

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Speaker 1: has been buried in another state, and the big question

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Speaker 1: is what have they found? Why don't we have more

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Speaker 1: information at this point in time, that absolutely is the

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Speaker 1: million dollar question, Joe. And what I am curious about

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Speaker 1: after authorities exhumed the body, how are they going to

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Speaker 1: or how did they determine what caused Tammy's death and

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Speaker 1: what did she die from? Yeah, that that brings us

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Speaker 1: back to the original proposition. The kids all got together

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Speaker 1: with CBS on forty eight hours and actually one of

396
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Speaker 1: the sons, I believe it was Garth Garthy Bell, he

397
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: actually made the comment on air. He said, the police

398
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Speaker 1: told us that that our mother's caused death was asphyxia

399
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Speaker 1: um but we haven't seen autopsy report. That's quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: and so again, you know, just like these children, we

401
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Speaker 1: have yet to see the autopsy report. But the kids

402
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Speaker 1: are saying that they were informed that mom's death was

403
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Speaker 1: as a result of this fixy and I very curious

404
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: that during the same interview, it was kind of intimated

405
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Speaker 1: by the kids that well, Aspixy, it doesn't always mean homicide. Okay,

406
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 1: well maybe that's the case, and I guess in a

407
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 1: pure academic sense that would be the case. But you know,

408
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: as as we talk about, you know, day in and

409
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Speaker 1: day out, in these discussions that you and I have

410
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Speaker 1: here on body backs, we we know that most of

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Speaker 1: the time, when the police start talking about asphyxia, they're

412
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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about. Look, one of two things. Either

413
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Speaker 1: this is kind of a self inflicted event. You know,

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Speaker 1: you begin to think about, well, maybe somebody was hung

415
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Speaker 1: or uh, you know, maybe they placed a bag over

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Speaker 1: their own head and that that only occurs in very

417
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Speaker 1: rare circumstances, or they died at the hands of another individual.

418
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Speaker 1: But right now we're left with this kind of to

419
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: try to understand how did if they did in fact,

420
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Speaker 1: remember this hasn't come from an official source, how did

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Speaker 1: they in fact come to this conclusion? And well, that

422
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Speaker 1: would tell me that they found something on the physical

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Speaker 1: body at autopsy. If this is to be believed what

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Speaker 1: we heard the sun say they found something on the

425
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Speaker 1: physical body, Well, what would that be? Was there some

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00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: kind of damage to the neck that of course was

427
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Speaker 1: not seen beforehand because there was not uh an autopsy

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Speaker 1: immediately after death. Could you still see evidence that Yeah, yeah,

429
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: you could see a fraction hihoid, You could see uh

430
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: crushing trauma and the larynx, you know, the windpipe. We've

431
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: talked about that a lot. Is there a potential that

432
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: you could still see patiki. I think that's the big

433
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: question that everybody has. I think probably if you looked

434
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: close enough, particularly in the eyes. Um. But you know,

435
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: the thing about morticians is that when they embalm the body,

436
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: they do a curious thing with the eyes. They actually

437
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: put cups, these little um, these little cups uh over

438
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: the eyes and close the eyelids and then glue the

439
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: eyelids shut shut. And they do that with the mouth

440
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: as well. And my question is if there is patky

441
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: i present on the surface what's referred to as the

442
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: scleral surface of the eye, is it's still appreciable after

443
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: all this time. Remember she was actually in the ground

444
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: for weeks Jackie, and I mean for weeks down there

445
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: in Utah before they ever examined a body. And here's

446
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: another factor that you have to put into all of this,

447
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: because not only was she embombed and then transported down there,

448
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: but she was placed into uh, into this grave. What

449
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: condition was the grave then? Had it been compromised in anyway?

450
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: Was it? You know? They the funeral business sells coffins

451
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: to people on the uh with with the idea that

452
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: this thing is going to be sealed. It will be

453
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: sealed forever and ever, Amen, and that nothing's going to

454
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: impact the bodies. I've done a lot of exlamations. Bodies

455
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: get impacted, So I wonder how good was this a

456
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: real how effective was the embalming, because sometimes embalming can

457
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: go bad and you'll begin to have little focal areas

458
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: of decomposition that impacts certain areas of tissue. Is there

459
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: any chance that that happened in the case. So it's

460
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: really hard to try to understand how these individuals at

461
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: the Utah State Medical Examiner's office, which is where her

462
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: body eventually went to after the exhamation, what kind of

463
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: conclusions did they arrive at that point in time? And

464
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: I get the feeling we're gonna find out something really soon, Jackie,

465
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: because there are a number of trials on slate that

466
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: are going to be uh that are just over the horizon,

467
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: and at that point in time, evidence is going to

468
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: have to be presented and questions will be asked. We'll

469
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: just find out what kind of answers we get to them.

470
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: One of the things you mentioned, Joe was how long

471
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: Tammy had been buried. Well, along with that came how

472
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: long it took for us to have any findings. Even

473
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: just knowing that the toopsy itself was completed, Why is

474
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: that what what took so long? Yeah, that that's that's

475
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: a fantastic question, jack I gotta tell you, I've thought

476
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: about this quite a bit and around kind of been

477
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: the union, this odd universe of these day Bill cases.

478
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: We've got all these other deaths they are involved, and

479
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: let's think about all of the different jurisdictions. Well, now

480
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: we've got Idaho, We've got Utah involved because of Tammy,

481
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: and we go down to to Arizona, where we've got

482
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: desks down there that are you know, at least peripherally

483
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: involved in in these cases. And then you've got these

484
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: two individuals with U, with Chad and Lorie that run

485
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: off to to Hawaii to get to get married. What

486
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: you're looking at here is a multi jurisdictional event, Jackie.

487
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, the you know, the people in Idaho are

488
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: going to have first shot at you know, having a

489
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: prosecution here. But you have to understand there's there are

490
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: other jurisdictions that have kind of authority in this. Even

491
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: the FEDS have an interest in this. Let's think about

492
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: j J entirely. Well, where were they actually kind of

493
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: last seen with videography, Well, uh, we know that um

494
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: at least tilely. The last time I think she was

495
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: seeing was over in Yellowstone. Well, who controls Yellowstone, Jackie,

496
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: that's fed. That's a fit. And then you've got people

497
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: crossing state lines, so you know you might have a

498
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: federal interest here as well. So I'm really wondering if

499
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: they are not holding back information because they're trying to

500
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: get this case put together that is highly highly complex

501
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: and very very complicated. I'm JOSEPHS. Gott Morgan, and this

502
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: is body Backs