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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abusive power you'd like to share,

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Speaker 1: leave us a message on our hotline number at five

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Speaker 1: one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or she had us an email at trust Me pod

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Speaker 2: at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lived.

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Speaker 4: To you, I never have a live.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abusive power from two future ghosts who've

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Speaker 1: actually experienced it. I am lol Oblong future ghost and

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Speaker 1: I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for cutting through all my death denial right there. Wow,

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Speaker 2: future ghosts.

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Speaker 3: But it's fun if you're a ghost. Do you get

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Speaker 3: to haunt people?

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Speaker 6: That's true? That's true.

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Speaker 1: Today is part two of our interview with the formerly

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Speaker 1: amished Torah Bontrager, activist and author of Amish Girl in Manhattan. Today,

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Speaker 1: we'll get deeper into our interview with her, discussing things

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Speaker 1: like trigger warning, the abuse she suffered in her family,

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Speaker 1: her first escape attempt, and how she finally escaped the community,

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Speaker 1: only to then experience more abuse.

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Speaker 2: Plus how she ultimately ended up graduating from Columbia University

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Speaker 2: and becoming an activist fighting to overturn a Supreme Court case.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I'm pretty obsessed with one Amish girl in Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: That's the perfect name, and number two the Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: case she's fighting.

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Speaker 6: I can't stop thinking about it. So I'm excited for people.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Also, Homage Girl in Manhattan sounds like a Mary Kate

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Speaker 1: and Ashley movie.

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Speaker 3: That I would have watched, Oh, in like nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I would have watched in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's so good.

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Speaker 1: Before we talk to her again, Megan, what's the cultiest

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Speaker 1: thing that's happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Okay, well this happened to me not last night, but

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Speaker 2: the night before. And basically I was just trying to

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Speaker 2: sleep and.

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Speaker 6: I think it's culty. I don't know, maybe it's on

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Speaker 6: the line you tell me, But.

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Speaker 2: I was laying down trying to fall asleep, and my

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Speaker 2: brain could not land on a single fact that felt true,

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Speaker 2: and it was so weird, and I just felt like,

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Speaker 2: kind of how Steve talks about when people are coming

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Speaker 2: out of cults or when they just can't, like the

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Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance with everything is so thick that you just

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Speaker 2: feel really lost and weird.

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Speaker 6: That's how I felt two nights ago. It was very strange,

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Speaker 6: as in.

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Speaker 1: Like you were like, my name is Megan. No, that's

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Speaker 1: not right, that can't be true.

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Speaker 2: I did know my name, but you know, I like,

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Speaker 2: I like peanut butter and jelly, like I know a

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Speaker 2: few things. But I was just like, yeah, like this

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Speaker 2: is because it's this way. And then I was like, no,

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Speaker 2: it's not. And then I was like pulled, then is

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Speaker 2: it that way?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 6: And it was just more of.

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Speaker 2: A theological and entire breakdown of my psyche in a

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Speaker 2: way that I've never experienced.

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Speaker 6: It was so weird.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like you just wrestling with life, my friend.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like this podcast actually has kind of

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Speaker 2: taught me that, you know, you can't have just one

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Speaker 2: way of thinking about things or one way of doing things.

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Speaker 2: You need to have several. So I know that that's true.

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Speaker 2: Even if I don't want to think of life that way,

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Speaker 2: I just already do now because I.

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Speaker 6: Know it is.

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Speaker 2: But I can't now I just can't land on anything

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Speaker 2: that feels right or feels true or feels good on

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Speaker 2: any subject.

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Speaker 6: So thanks, trust me.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so it's continued after that night.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't. I haven't thought anymore after that night, better.

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Speaker 3: Than about Peter Butter and Jelly's got it.

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Speaker 2: I was like, okay, cartoons distractions, I'm not doing this shit,

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Speaker 2: but uh yeah, usually I can like journal myself out

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Speaker 2: of it, but I was just journaling in circles.

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Speaker 6: My goodness. Yeah, it's pretty strange.

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Speaker 3: You're wrestling with the big questions here. That's interesting.

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Speaker 6: Well they're not. Yeah, they're not even it's even like

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Speaker 6: just like shit with COVID. This is a fact.

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Speaker 2: No, it's not like I don't like I'm I can't.

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Speaker 2: I can't explain it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you really try to be objective and

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Speaker 1: parse the truth and you are able to see the

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Speaker 1: truth in every argument, it can be really confusing because

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Speaker 1: it's so much easier to see the world and black

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Speaker 1: and white and yeah it's awesome things as clear cut, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but everything is actually just so much more complicated and

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Speaker 1: messy and nuanced, and that's hard for our brains.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's my question for you, do you think that

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Speaker 2: it's imperative or important that if you're not in a cult,

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Speaker 2: but you do just think very black and white one direction.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that's a bad thing, just for

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Speaker 2: getting your life shit done, picking up the kids from school,

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Speaker 2: all the stuff you have to do? Like, do some

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Speaker 2: people just not have enough time to have no?

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Speaker 1: Well, it sounded like you're asking a question about one direction,

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Speaker 1: which sounded more fun. But Harry, I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I don't think everyone has time to I think most

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Speaker 1: people probably don't have time to wrestle with the objective

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Speaker 1: truth of all things and like really parse through the

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Speaker 1: complicated nature of life. Like sometimes you just kind of

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Speaker 1: got to get through the day. So it's not you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not for everyone for sure.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you're just like I was born in this religion,

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Speaker 2: Like I'm just gonna see it through.

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Speaker 6: Let's just do it. I'm gonna yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean it works, it makes them happy, Like who cares?

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Speaker 3: It doesn't.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to like force yourself to question things

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Speaker 1: if they're working for your life, you know, Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, what about you. Well, I'm on

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Speaker 1: a journey at the moment. I am on a journey.

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Speaker 1: As the listeners to the past two episodes might have,

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Speaker 1: were you just gonna take well, I've been having some

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Speaker 1: weird nights of my own, but it's mostly just because

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Speaker 1: I started a new medication and it's making.

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Speaker 3: Me really weird.

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Speaker 1: But I was gonna say, my cultiest thing is not

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Speaker 1: really a culty thing, I don't think, but I think

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Speaker 1: to somebody who doesn't know about it, it could potentially seem culty,

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Speaker 1: which is that I finally started EMDR.

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Speaker 6: Woo, that's cool. I love EMDR.

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Speaker 3: So you've done it right, Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we haven't started reprocessing yet, but so it's for

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Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't know what EMDR is, I movement, desensitization

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Speaker 1: and reprocessing. So basically what you do is, first you

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Speaker 1: sort of establish a safe space in your mind and

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Speaker 1: a safe relationship with your therapist and correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Megan, because we haven't started the reprocessing yet.

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Speaker 3: But you basically go through.

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Speaker 1: Your traumatic memories and imagine them in a way that

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Speaker 1: makes them different and safer.

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Speaker 3: Is that right? Can you describe it?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean what's happening Basically the person who created MDRS,

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Speaker 2: she was on her bicycle one day or she was

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Speaker 2: walking I can't remember which, and she was like looking

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Speaker 2: at flowers on each side of the pathway and she

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Speaker 2: suddenly felt so much better, and so she realized, like

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Speaker 2: we can connect our left and write hemosphere as apparent.

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Speaker 6: Like it's much more complicated than that.

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Speaker 2: But if you didn't even talk to somebody during AMDR,

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Speaker 2: I think it would still be really effective. But the

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Speaker 2: therapist is there to like walk you through a certain

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Speaker 2: trauma and even just talking about it while you're doing

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Speaker 2: this looking back and forth, it helps process it.

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Speaker 6: So, yeah, the therapist.

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Speaker 2: Some people do it differently, but they will walk you

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Speaker 2: through something that's stuck in you and help you process it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really cool. I really really like my lady.

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Speaker 6: Really. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We again, we haven't started reprocessing, so we'll see, but

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Speaker 1: we've done some just like gentle exercises to just kind

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Speaker 1: of get it started. We've done the buzzing on the

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Speaker 1: hands as well as the sounds. Yes, and a couple

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Speaker 1: of my friends have been doing it and they're swearing

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Speaker 1: by it. And I'm also reading the body keeps the

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Speaker 1: score right now, because y'all, I'm in I'm having a moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm having a moment as many of us are, I guess,

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Speaker 1: and she also talks about how am It's just like

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Speaker 1: there are lots of studies about it. Apparently it is

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Speaker 1: just more effective than being in talk therapy and just

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Speaker 1: like talking about stuff over and over again. It's like

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Speaker 1: an actual thing that helps rewire your brain.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and if you think about it, it's

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Speaker 2: why walking makes you feel so much better if you

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Speaker 2: go on a long walk, besides just being outside and

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Speaker 2: fresh air and everything. It's like left right, left, right,

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Speaker 2: left right, it connects everything.

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Speaker 3: So, oh yeah, that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was just because it increased your heart

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Speaker 1: rate and movement is good.

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Speaker 6: For your body.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and again those are a big facet but

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Speaker 2: it's pretty interesting because it is this whole like back

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Speaker 2: forth back forth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you guys have experienced EMDR or I should say,

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Speaker 1: been doing EMDR DMS, I want to know what your

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Speaker 1: experience has been like. And wow, antidepressants they're fucked up.

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Speaker 1: Huh yeah, going through it, but we're gonna figure it out.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna find the right one. We're gonna defeat this anxiety,

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Speaker 1: my friends. Yes, betch yeah, bitch, Why am I yassing today?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: It's a side effect.

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Speaker 3: Lexapro.

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Speaker 1: Common side effects include yahing, all right, let's talk to Tora now,

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Speaker 1: shall we?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: We would love to hear about the way you got out,

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Speaker 2: and this uncle is a huge part of the story, Lola.

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Speaker 6: Would now be a good time to move into that.

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Speaker 1: I actually first want to hear it because you first

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Speaker 1: decide to leave at age eleven, right, which is years

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Speaker 1: before you actually left. So what was it that made

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Speaker 1: you first decide to leave?

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Speaker 5: Well, that was after I had read the Bible from

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Speaker 5: cover to cover and couldn't find the answers. And then

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Speaker 5: my interpretation, my read of the Bible was such that

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Speaker 5: I felt that if I remained in the Amish religion,

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Speaker 5: I would not be practicing what the Bible actually taught

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Speaker 5: or what I interpreted Jesus to be teaching. So I

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Speaker 5: felt like I had this ethical imperative to leave.

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Speaker 3: What did you feel that Jesus was actually teaching?

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Speaker 7: Well, the part of answer an eleven year old, Well,

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Speaker 7: one of the things was it goes back to that

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Speaker 7: Bible verse that cited as here's why we can't have

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Speaker 7: a car, and it's like, actually, no, that's not what

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Speaker 7: it's saying.

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Speaker 5: So that alone was enough for me. And of course

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Speaker 5: I wanted a car, I wanted modern conveniences. I wanted

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Speaker 5: to see the world. I dreamed of going to space

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Speaker 5: and traveling and seeing every country in the world. You know,

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Speaker 5: these were my dreams. And I could not have any

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Speaker 5: of that if I remained in the church and the religion.

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Speaker 5: So I had to figure out a way of leaving

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Speaker 5: that did not send me to hell. So that was

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Speaker 5: like my philosophical conundrum.

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Speaker 2: I read somewhere that Harriet Tubman was an influence for you.

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Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely. That was at the same time that I

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Speaker 5: was reading the Bible. I think I was a little

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Speaker 5: bit older, maybe around thirteen, when I read Harriet Tubman

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Speaker 5: about her story about the underground railroad, and that was

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Speaker 5: what really helped me tremendously, you know, was like her

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Speaker 5: example of setting herself free and not being allowed to

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Speaker 5: be a slave anymore despite what the owner said. And

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Speaker 5: I felt the same way. I felt like I was

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Speaker 5: an enslave person too, and she was fearless. She carried

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Speaker 5: a gun and she said, f you, you don't own me.

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Speaker 5: I'm a person, and she stole back her freedom. And

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Speaker 5: that's how I think of it as it's like my

243
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Speaker 5: freedom was stolen from me and I had to steal

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Speaker 5: it back. And the only way I could do that

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Speaker 5: was by literally escaping in the middle of the night.

246
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Speaker 5: But before I took that step, I had to figure

247
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Speaker 5: out how I was not going to get sent to hell.

248
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Speaker 5: You know, that was still hanging over my head. So

249
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Speaker 5: even though I felt like, yes, this is all wrong,

250
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Speaker 5: this is not logical, not rational, not right, you're not ethical,

251
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Speaker 5: I still had to figure out how to stay in

252
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Speaker 5: God's good graces.

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Speaker 3: How'd it go.

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Speaker 5: By that time? You know, like I was not a

255
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Speaker 5: fan of this Old Testament God, and it also didn't

256
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Speaker 5: make sense about Okay, now Jesus like he sent his

257
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Speaker 5: son to die for us and blah blah blah, and

258
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Speaker 5: like this sounds very much like my Amish father and

259
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Speaker 5: the clergy and the bishops. You know, it's so temperamental.

260
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Speaker 5: You never know what's going to happen one day to

261
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Speaker 5: the next, you know what mood God is in.

262
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Speaker 2: And just making insane rules like you don't have to

263
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Speaker 2: send your son, you could just take it away yourself.

264
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Speaker 5: Yeah, does that their own kid? And makes them like

265
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Speaker 5: go through all the suffering and agony and whatever. Right,

266
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Speaker 5: and you know, like that's truel, you know, like that's humane, literally,

267
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Speaker 5: like there's nothing good about that.

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Speaker 1: I've never thought about the fact that he sent his

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Speaker 1: son to suffer, because I don't know, I think of

270
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Speaker 1: them just you know, it's the two guys in white.

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Speaker 6: He's like, this is the only way you must be tortured.

272
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Speaker 7: Jesus is like, are you sure there's no other ways?

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Speaker 2: I'm positive by you.

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Speaker 5: Know, I felt like I liked the GISTs of jesus

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Speaker 5: teachings more. Of course, there were things I didn't agree

276
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Speaker 5: with or thought this is a little weird, like this

277
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Speaker 5: doesn't make sense. But compared to God, Jesus was like, okay,

278
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Speaker 5: I could get along with you, you know, and I

279
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Speaker 5: think right because God and Jesus are the same, which

280
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Speaker 5: I don't understand, but I'm going to take that and

281
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Speaker 5: then just rely on Jesus to intercede on my behalf

282
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Speaker 5: with God. I did not send me to hell, you know,

283
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Speaker 5: I think Jesus would be okay with me leaving because.

284
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Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, don't tell God, but way more Yeah.

285
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Speaker 5: Doing what you said, Jesus. You know, I'm actually singer

286
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Speaker 5: trying to you know, I'm not going to be hypocritical

287
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Speaker 5: and say you can't have a car or outright lie

288
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Speaker 5: about it when that's not what the Bible says.

289
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Speaker 1: And yeah, so you're like plotting for four years, you're

290
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Speaker 1: plotting your escape.

291
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is so cool.

292
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Speaker 2: I read the story about how you were walking and

293
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Speaker 2: you had a gun.

294
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Speaker 6: You kind of put it against your face. Can you

295
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about that?

296
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Speaker 5: So that was before my first attempt. So I had

297
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Speaker 5: a failed first attempt and then a successful second attempt.

298
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Speaker 5: And so leading up to the first attempt, I was

299
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Speaker 5: out practicing target shooting to get ready for the deer

300
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 5: hunting season in the fall. And I had a good

301
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 5: session shooting. I was was a good shot. It was

302
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 5: sort of this meditation for me, this release, which I

303
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,000
Speaker 5: didn't realize at the time, but I could just focus

304
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Speaker 5: on shooting and forget about all my problems, forget about

305
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,359
Speaker 5: what was going on and the household and how unhappy

306
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Speaker 5: I was. And once I got done, I came went

307
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Speaker 5: back to the house and there was this sort of

308
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Speaker 5: like little knowles. I was out in the field, you know,

309
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Speaker 5: quite a ways away from the house. It was like

310
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Speaker 5: the perfect evening. The sun was setting. Everything was just quiet,

311
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Speaker 5: or of course you know nature sounds, birds chirping, things

312
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 5: like that, but there was just this sense of calm

313
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Speaker 5: and serenity that I didn't experience very often or notice

314
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Speaker 5: very often. And I realized, you know, I haven't argued

315
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Speaker 5: with my mother today, like we hadn't had a fight

316
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Speaker 5: that day, not yet anyway, and I would like to

317
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Speaker 5: die on a day that I wasn't mad at my mother.

318
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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

319
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Speaker 5: So I put the gun up to my head and

320
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Speaker 5: I just felt, you know, the steal. And at that

321
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Speaker 5: point I had this thought, I don't want to die.

322
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Speaker 5: And that was the first time that I realized I'd

323
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Speaker 5: ever thought in terms of I don't want to die.

324
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Speaker 5: I want to live. Like the thought that I had

325
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Speaker 5: was I want to live instead of just I want

326
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Speaker 5: to die. I want to die. I want to die. Wow.

327
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Speaker 5: So I clung to that, you know, I want to live.

328
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Speaker 5: It was like such a novel thought for me. And

329
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Speaker 5: that was something like I just sort of like said

330
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Speaker 5: over and over to myself. I knew what was going

331
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Speaker 5: to be ahead. It was going to continue to be tough,

332
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Speaker 5: you know, until I figured out how to escape and

333
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Speaker 5: to just remember that I want to live for whatever reason,

334
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Speaker 5: like if I feel like I want to kill myself again,

335
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Speaker 5: like I feel like there's just no way out to

336
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Speaker 5: remember that thought and not kill myself.

337
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Speaker 6: Wow.

338
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Speaker 5: Yeah. So it was shortly after that that I had

339
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 5: my first failed attempt and you know, I don't know,

340
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 5: escape attempt, yeah, escape first fail, yeah, escape attempt. Yeah.

341
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 5: And I never actually never thought about this, Like I

342
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 5: wonder if maybe that moment of realizing that I want

343
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 5: to live instead of shooting myself, maybe that's what helped

344
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 5: me get through that those nine months after my escape

345
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 5: attempt until I figured out how to escape again, because

346
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 5: it was I mean, that's another whole long thing to

347
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 5: go into, but think of like a similar experience as

348
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 5: you hear about these boarding schools or certain schools for

349
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,640
Speaker 5: like problem kids, the parents think their kids are problematic.

350
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,119
Speaker 5: That's kind of environment was what I was sent to

351
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 5: after my first escape attempt. I luckily didn't have to

352
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Speaker 5: go to counseling, to that horrible place.

353
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Speaker 3: Air quotes counselings and air quotes.

354
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Speaker 5: Yeah, very long, because I figured out what to tell

355
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Speaker 5: the counselor who's amish and not a licensed counselor, and

356
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Speaker 5: it was all just again like military camp for Amish kids.

357
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Speaker 6: Basically, where is this?

358
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Speaker 3: I've never heard of anything like this.

359
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 5: There are at least six locations around the country now.

360
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,879
Speaker 5: I don't know how many existed twenty five years ago

361
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Speaker 5: when I was sent to one. I think only a couple.

362
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,520
Speaker 5: I don't know, but there are at least six now,

363
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 5: maybe more. Yeah, this is where if you, for example,

364
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 5: have sexually assaulted too many children, you'll get sent there.

365
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 5: That's the Amish version of Oh, we take care of

366
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Speaker 5: our own problems.

367
00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, So you don't go to jail, you

368
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 1: just go to like a boarding school.

369
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Speaker 5: Essentially, you get to an Amish yeah camp.

370
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Speaker 3: Wow, you were sent there when you were a kid.

371
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Speaker 5: And I don't want to make it sound worse than

372
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,159
Speaker 5: it actually was, which is that I never had to

373
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Speaker 5: stay overnight and I didn't have to go more than

374
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Speaker 5: I think maybe three times or maybe six times, I

375
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 5: can't remember. It was not that much. But the methodology,

376
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,959
Speaker 5: of course, was just as horrific for me. I was

377
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 5: forced to sit in a room alone with a male

378
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 5: bishop who looking back, who made me extremely uncomfortable. Besides

379
00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 5: just the interrogation and methods that they used looking back,

380
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 5: now like he's a rapist himself. And you know, I've

381
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 5: uncovered that much since then, but that was who I

382
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 5: got sent to to get cured, like, right. And that

383
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 5: was in addition to how my father treated me that

384
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 5: night when I got caught trying to escape. I was

385
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 5: forced to stay up all night for over twenty four hours,

386
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,199
Speaker 5: all that night plus all next day, and then not

387
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 5: being allowed to go to bed until late that next

388
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 5: day after being all day with this rapist Amish bishop alone.

389
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,680
Speaker 5: But leading up to that, I was forced to stay

390
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 5: awake by my father. He was there in my room

391
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 5: all night, yelling at me, interrogating me. I was treated

392
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,400
Speaker 5: like a terrorist. You know, I recognize the tactics now.

393
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,719
Speaker 5: I mean, this is how you would interrogate and treat

394
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 5: a terrorists.

395
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly what it sounds like.

396
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 5: You know, it's sleep deprived. I was subjected to all

397
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 5: this verbal abuse, of psychological emotional threats and then alternating

398
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 5: with oh, you know, my father is such a good guy,

399
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,959
Speaker 5: and oh he just cares about me, And I mean

400
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 5: he's a total psychopath, one hundred percent psychopath, you know.

401
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 5: And of course I didn't know that then but I

402
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 5: know it now. It was like he had all these

403
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 5: different personalities that I was subjected to throughout the night

404
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 5: and never allowed to go to sleep. I mean, that's

405
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 5: one thing I will never forget. Was like when I

406
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 5: got so tired just from exhaustion, you know, him screaming

407
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 5: in my ears or whatever was going on, then just

408
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 5: kind of like falling, you know, like this because I

409
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 5: was just tired, and him grabbing my shoulder jerking me

410
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 5: up and not letting me go to sleep. And I

411
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 5: couldn't understand that, like in my mind, you know, I

412
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 5: was just fourteen years old, fourteen fifteen, right on the cusp,

413
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 5: and I was like, I don't understand why I can't

414
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 5: go to sleep.

415
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that's literally torture.

416
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 5: Yeah.

417
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 6: After this, there's a phone in your dad's barn.

418
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: So that's kind of one of those weird rules where

419
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 2: it's like no phones except the one in the barn, right.

420
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 5: You know, even before this, there was a phone in

421
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 5: the burn. Okay, That's how I had called this non

422
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 5: Amish person who was a part time taxi driver for

423
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 5: the Amish. I called her very last minute in the

424
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 5: evening seeing if she could take me the next morning

425
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 5: to the bus station two hours away. And so she

426
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 5: came in late at night, like around ten o'clock or

427
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 5: something like that, it was dark, and wanted to know, oh,

428
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 5: has Tora found a ride to Holland Nesta, you know.

429
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,919
Speaker 5: So she was being a good neighbor because she couldn't

430
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 5: take me when I called her, And I had called

431
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 5: her earlier that day from the barn when nobody was around.

432
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 5: But usually what happened is that I would wait until

433
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 5: everybody was asleep and crawl out of the bathroom window

434
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,719
Speaker 5: at night and run out to the barn and make

435
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 5: clet calls to my uncle. The first uncle I went

436
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 5: to who write me? So, yeah, that's sort of the story.

437
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: So the attempt that was successful, you called your uncle

438
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: and how did you get out?

439
00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 5: Well, that was the second attemp was in May the

440
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 5: following year, so it was the fall the year before

441
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 5: that I tried the first time. Then the following year

442
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 5: in May, my plan had been to leave on my

443
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 5: bike and go to the car ferry. So there was

444
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 5: a seasonal car ferry that we cross Lake Michigan, and

445
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 5: I was going to just get on my bike. I

446
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 5: wouldn't have to trust anybody or take the risk of

447
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 5: letting anybody know, and then I could just escape that way.

448
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 5: That was my plan, but I had to wait for

449
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 5: nine months, you know, until the season car Faerry season

450
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 5: started back up. Two weeks before the car Ferry season

451
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 5: starts up, my parents decide they're going to move because

452
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 5: that fixes all the problems, right, you know, Okay, Well,

453
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 5: if there's a kid who has tried escaping, then one

454
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 5: of the solutions is to move to a different community,

455
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 5: and that supposedly makes you forget everything, you get amnesia, right,

456
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 5: And so I was like, okay, what am I going

457
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 5: to do? Like I had everything planned out and it

458
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 5: was going to go off without a hitch. I didn't

459
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 5: have to trust anybody take any risk. And now I'm

460
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 5: in a new place, and for an Amish kid with

461
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 5: no internet and no personal cell phone who's under house arrest,

462
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 5: you know, Amish house arrest, meaning I could never go

463
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 5: anywhere without an adult being around, you know, what was

464
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 5: my escape plan going to be? Because I also don't

465
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 5: know where the nearest train or Greyhound station is. We

466
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 5: didn't have a phone in our barn yet at the

467
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 5: new place because it took a while to I guess,

468
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 5: get things set up. And also my parents weren't in

469
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 5: a hurry to get rid of the phone in the house.

470
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 5: Like it wasn't a traditional Amish place that we bought,

471
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 5: so it had electricity in everything, and it was okay,

472
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 5: we're just going to plug in the phone in the house,

473
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 5: you know, for business purposes. You know, an exception is

474
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 5: made if you're transitioning to a new place. Right until

475
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 5: you get the phone lines set up in the barn.

476
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 6: It's so annoying. Oh it makes me insane.

477
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 5: I can't make calls at night because phoneism, but there's

478
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 5: no phone in the barn. For me, it was like

479
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 5: it was being cut off from all contact. It was

480
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 5: just like falling off out of radio contact or something,

481
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 5: you know, being out in the desert or the wilderness

482
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 5: and being cut off from everything. And then luckily I

483
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 5: was allowed to, finally, for the first time in nine months,

484
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 5: go to work without constant adult supervision. So I worked

485
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 5: at an Amish baker got a job at the Amish

486
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 5: bakery there like I had before in the other community

487
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 5: we moved from. But I was allowed to bite by

488
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 5: myself to the bakery and I realized, oh, I'm biking

489
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 5: past the school at the Amish schoolhouse, and the schoolhouse

490
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 5: has a phone in it. That's how I made my

491
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 5: calls was when I would come back to her from work,

492
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 5: and I called my second uncle and told him, you know,

493
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 5: if I could leave tonight, I would. I don't know

494
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 5: what I'm going to do, and if I don't figure

495
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 5: out a way to escape soon, I'm going to be

496
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: forced to get baptized. Because my mother was on my

497
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 5: case every fricking day about okay, well this community starts

498
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 5: baptizing you at age fifteen, which is super like insane,

499
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 5: and usually the earliest you would get baptized at sixteen,

500
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 5: but even that is very unusual for most Amish communities.

501
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 5: And this was like, okay, we're baptizing our kids at fourteen, thirteen, fifteen, Well,

502
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 5: what the deal was? This was not actually even an

503
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 5: actual Amish religious community. They had been converted to right

504
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 5: wing evangelical born again Christianity and pretended to be the

505
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 5: Amish religion and kept wearing the clothes. So that was

506
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 5: their way of recruiting.

507
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, sneaky, yeah wow, And so that was why they're

508
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 4: like urging kids or trying to get kids to get

509
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: baptized that early.

510
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 5: My mother was like all gone Oh, you know, then

511
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 5: I'll finally be able to rest in peace that my

512
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 5: daughter is going to stay and be a good Amish kid.

513
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 5: You know, because as soon as you're baptized, then you

514
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 5: can quit worrying about that. You'll then start worrying when

515
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 5: your grandkids arrived.

516
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: Right, that's one of the weirdest cycles about it. If

517
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: that's your belief system. It's such a weird thing to

518
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: have children. This life is a test, and you'll probably

519
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: go to hell. Why would you put someone through that?

520
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: Like I remember my mom saying when I was younger, like,

521
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: I've never liked being alive. I think that's so common

522
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: for women raised in these situations.

523
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 6: It's just so staggering that it keeps happening.

524
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't have any rights as a female, Like

525
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 5: you're literally second class or less. You literally promise to

526
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 5: obey your husband on your wedding day, you know, and

527
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 5: you literally promise to stay in the religion for the

528
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 5: rest of your life when you get baptized. That baptismal

529
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 5: vow is more sacred. And I hate that word sacred.

530
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 5: I can't think of another word, Like it has more

531
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 5: weight than your marriage vow. Wow, that's another way of

532
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 5: understanding the Amish religion and mentality. And so back to

533
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 5: the thing about why would you have kids in this environment?

534
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 5: You're not supposed to have birth control use birth control, right,

535
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 5: although of course there are tons of Amish you secretly

536
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 5: do or do partially, you know. So those are the

537
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 5: ones who only have six kids as opposed to twelve kids,

538
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 5: right right, And you have no there's no much concept

539
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 5: as consent to having sex for sure or not. Once

540
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 5: you're married, the husband demands that you're supposed to obey

541
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 5: the husband doesn't matter if you don't feel like having sex.

542
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 5: And so if between not having sex, not having birth control,

543
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 5: or not having birth control much you have these kids,

544
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 5: you're just no different from an animal, you know, on

545
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 5: the farm. And there's also this, you know, idea belief

546
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 5: that oh, the more kids you have, the more God

547
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 5: is blessing you. That's like an unspoken thing kind of like, Okay, well,

548
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 5: if you can't have kids, you know you must have

549
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 5: done something wrong. God is punishing you. If you don't

550
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 5: have a lot of kids, you only have two, like

551
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 5: there's got to be something wrong with you. And and

552
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 5: sounds healthy And it's always the woman's fault. It's never,

553
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 5: of course, the husband's fault.

554
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: Oh my heart breaks for all the like women who

555
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: must be just suffering in silence so deeply and have

556
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: no community and no ability to.

557
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, no way to even be able to figure out

558
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 6: what's presence that. Yeah, there's no even words. It's it's

559
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 6: so sad.

560
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: I'm sure there are some women who enjoy their lives.

561
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to place oppression onto people who don't

562
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: identify with it, you know, just to be clear, But like,

563
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are so many women suffering in silence,

564
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, that's really sad.

565
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there definitely are, just like any society,

566
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 5: people who are genuinely happy or happy enough. Yeah, they're

567
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 5: okay with that life, you know, because there are some

568
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 5: actually genuinely good Amish marriages. You know, I have some

569
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 5: aunts and uncles who actually have good marriages. There are

570
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 5: others who, like my parents, you know, are on the

571
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 5: other end of the extreme. I mean, honestly, if the

572
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 5: women were honest, most of them are happy that they

573
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 5: can't have kids anymore once they hit menopause. They would

574
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 5: acknowledge how hard it is raising children and on your

575
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 5: own basically, which is what you're doing, because that's your job.

576
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 5: That's your lot in life, is to have kids, as

577
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 5: many kids as you can and raise them. And your

578
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 5: husband's job is to earn the income, and you do

579
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 5: what he wants.

580
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm friends with some FLDS women. Do you Are

581
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: you familiar with this group?

582
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: Yes, And of course so many people have had harrowing

583
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: experiences in this group. But I also know a handful

584
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: of women who, you know, the prophet hasn't been dictating

585
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: anything in their lives for years, and they're quite happy

586
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: right now. And they have the added benefit of at

587
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: least they have other women to help them raise the children,

588
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like if they're not in

589
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: it alone, like they have a sisterhood, like at least

590
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: there's that. But of course, whatever, there's all kinds of

591
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: silencing happening there too.

592
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 5: Well. I think that's part of the reason if the

593
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: women aren't consciously thinking about it or thinking about it

594
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 5: too much, is because they can go to their sisters,

595
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 5: go to their mother's you know, like the extended family

596
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 5: network is always there to support you, right. So that's

597
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 5: what happened with my first three years of my life.

598
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 5: My mother didn't have to be a mother. She sent

599
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 5: me over to my grandparents' house and she could just

600
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 5: be depressed and just wallow in self pity or gloom

601
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 5: or whatever and regret having married her husband. You know,

602
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 5: she didn't have to face her issues until they moved

603
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 5: to a different state, and now she had to take

604
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 5: care of me, and she didn't have anybody. So I

605
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 5: know that that had something to do with the whrrors

606
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 5: of my childhood, was that there weren't aunts and uncles around.

607
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 5: And had they been around beyond three years old, who

608
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 5: knows what my perception of my childhood would be like.

609
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 5: You know, it wouldn't be nearly as horrific because I

610
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 5: could have avoided my mother most of the time. Oh man, No,

611
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 5: it sounds awful, but.

612
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: That's your reality. That's what happened.

613
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's get to the part where you actually leave,

614
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: because your life after is amazing and what you've managed

615
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: to do, the fact that you went to Columbia.

616
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: Can you just like walk us through it.

617
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 5: Yeah. So it was one of my dreams as a

618
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 5: little homage kid to go to Harvard. It was one

619
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 5: of those things that seeped in from the outside and

620
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 5: I was always around my father as much as I

621
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 5: could if he was at home and he had non

622
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 5: homage clients, and I would overhear their conversations like he

623
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 5: was in construction or built furniture or whatever, you know.

624
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 5: And so I'm sure that's how I found out about Harvard,

625
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 5: and the understanding I got was that only the smartest

626
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 5: people in the world can get into Harvard. My thought, Okay,

627
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 5: I want to go to Harvard because I loved school.

628
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 5: It was the only place where I felt happy after

629
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 5: three years old, was when I was in school. And

630
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 5: it was also the one thing that I was praised

631
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 5: for by my mother and everybody around me was like,

632
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 5: how smart you are? Like that was valued by her

633
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 5: family and her and so that was the only form

634
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 5: of praise I got from her, was how well I

635
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 5: did in school. And I also just genuinely love learning.

636
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 5: I mean, I still love learning, and I thought, okay,

637
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 5: that's what I want to do. And then fast forward

638
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 5: to you know, after my escape, I go to college.

639
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 5: I do a year of college, I stay out of

640
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 5: school for several years because I don't know what I

641
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 5: want to do anymore, and then I decide, Okay, this

642
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 5: is my last shot at going to Harvard as an

643
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 5: undergrad and I apply as a transfer student, and I

644
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 5: always joked that my rejection letter came before they got

645
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 5: my application. That just crushed me. I cried all summer,

646
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 5: like everything about my self, you know, like my self esteem,

647
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 5: since a self worth was tied to my academic performance, right,

648
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 5: and so for Harvard to reject me, that meant I

649
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 5: was really truly worthless, you know, my father's right. I

650
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 5: was a piece of shit and worthless and I would

651
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 5: never make it in life. And I had applied to

652
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 5: Columbia as a backup, Like literally, that was my bathroom

653
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 5: and my brain. I had never heard of Columbia, and

654
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 5: even though it was an IVY League school, I thought, okay,

655
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 5: it must be second rate because me. But it was

656
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 5: in New York City, and that was where I wanted

657
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 5: to live because at that point I had realized that

658
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 5: this was where I belonged. For some reason, There's something

659
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 5: about New York City like I just it resonated with me,

660
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 5: and Columbia accepted me. They had the good sense to

661
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 5: do that.

662
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 3: Do you ever watch Gilmore Girls?

663
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 5: I know about Gilmore Girls, but I've never watched.

664
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: Well spoiler Rory Gilmore is obsessed with Harvard and she's

665
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: the best student. She's obsessed with Harvard and she doesn't

666
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: get in and it crushes her soul. And then she

667
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: gets into Yale and she's like, fine, I'll go to Yale.

668
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 5: That's my story. So I'm sure I would have had,

669
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: you know, an amazing life from Harvard. But I don't

670
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 5: regret at all that Columbia was my path because it

671
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 5: got me into New York City. I got to be

672
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 5: around people who were extremely supportive. The undergrad college I

673
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 5: went to at Columbia was for non traditional students who

674
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 5: were all older and had unique stories. So the first

675
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 5: time in my life, I wasn't the only weird, unique person,

676
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 5: you know. Finally the WAWL And on top of that,

677
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 5: just New York City. Nobody gives a ship who you are,

678
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 5: what you look like, what you're into. You know, like,

679
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 5: we don't care. The city just embraces you. You can

680
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 5: be whoever you want to be. You can wear shorts

681
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 5: on the streets during the day in the middle winter,

682
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 5: nobody cares, or whatever. You can dye your hair, you

683
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 5: can get tattooed, and we don't care. So that's the

684
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 5: short story. Of Columbia and how I got to New

685
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 5: York City and why my book is called Amish Girl

686
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 5: in Manhattan.

687
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 6: Oh that is so cool. I'm sure this is in

688
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 6: the book.

689
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: But can you just tell us one moment of your

690
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: life when you're like in New York, you're in.

691
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 6: School, Like that is such a giant leap.

692
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: That must feel so surreal in your mind, Like what

693
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: did that feel?

694
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 7: Like?

695
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 5: I still can't believe I graduated from Columbia. Like I

696
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 5: will still go to the campus and look around and think,

697
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 5: did I really graduate? Did I really go to school here?

698
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: Or was this just something I dreamed of? And I

699
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 5: swear if I wouldn't have a Columbia email, I wouldn't

700
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 5: believe it. But it was a blur, you know. And

701
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 5: that's the part that I regret is that, you know,

702
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 5: I didn't have much financial aid. It's not like I

703
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 5: could ask my parents or relatives or community for support.

704
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 5: You know, they weren't going to help. So I had

705
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 5: to have a full time job during the summer and

706
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 5: pretty much a full time job during the school year

707
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 5: as well. So I was balancing full time school, full

708
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 5: time work, almost full time work, and the level of expectation,

709
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 5: you know, with the assignments was just so much higher

710
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 5: than what I had come in with. And so that

711
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 5: first semester it was hard. It was so hard, and

712
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 5: it got a little easier, it definitely, did you know,

713
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 5: I learned some hacks about how to read, for example,

714
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 5: a thousand pages of political science assignments readings in one

715
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 5: week on top of my other three classes.

716
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 7: Oh.

717
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 5: I don't think this works for every textbook, but for

718
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 5: political science articles and books, actually the article you read,

719
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 5: the summary, the abstract, the headings in bold, and the ending,

720
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: and that's pretty much like how you read smart you

721
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 5: skip all everything in between. So yeah, that was basically. Yeah,

722
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 5: my experience was being on campus and just running from

723
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 5: class to class and work class, work class, and pulling

724
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 5: all nighters, literally all nighters for exams and papers, and

725
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 5: just wondering will I ever graduate, being worried every semester

726
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 5: from semester to semester, Am I going to get enough

727
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 5: financial aid to be able to take class as the

728
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 5: next semester? You know, constantly having that money financial worry

729
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 5: hanging over my head, and all the while, you know,

730
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 5: just remembering you have to figure out how to graduate

731
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 5: from Columbia got to make sure you graduate, because that's

732
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 5: your ticket to doing what you want to do in life.

733
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 5: You know, like I didn't belong to the right club,

734
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 5: the right family. Yeah, I wasn't male. I couldn't climb

735
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 5: the corporate ladder. And I also hated the corporate world.

736
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 5: I didn't like being told what to do. I wanted

737
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 5: to do things how I thought was efficient. And I'm

738
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 5: sure had I, you know, been a male, it would

739
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 5: have been a different experience because I could have advanced

740
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 5: a little bit more the way I wanted to in

741
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 5: the corporate world. But all of that to say that

742
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 5: the four years of being at Columbia was this blur

743
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 5: and this thing hanging over my head is that you

744
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 5: have to you have to get this diploma. That's that's

745
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 5: your ticket to your future. You know, that's what's going

746
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 5: to mean. You made it and you'll continue to make it.

747
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: And you did it, and that's all.

748
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 5: And that was such a weird thing too, to think, Okay,

749
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 5: that's how you know you made it, because it's like, duh,

750
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 5: you were fifteen years old and you escape this planet

751
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 5: basically and crash landed on a whole new world. And

752
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 5: that was your second attempt, not even your first attempt.

753
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 5: So I have all of that nights. Often, you know,

754
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 5: tend to just forget the significance of that, and it's like,

755
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 5: you know, you don't need to prove yourself beyond that,

756
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 5: like you already did it. Yeah, you know, my constant

757
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 5: challenge is thinking I need to accomplish more.

758
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: Right, oh girl, same same.

759
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: So you lived with your uncle, and was that who

760
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 1: you were living with when you first started going to college.

761
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 5: No, So the first uncle I lived with for half

762
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 5: a year. It took like a half a year for

763
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 5: me to figure out how to escape camp. And then

764
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 5: I went to my second uncle for the second semester

765
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 5: of high school. So that was within the first year.

766
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 5: First half year was with the uncle in Montana, Harvey Bell.

767
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 5: Second half of the year was with the uncle in Wisconsin,

768
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 5: nina'spawn trager. And as soon as his wife left on

769
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 5: an overnight business trip, he did the same thing now,

770
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 5: you know, and I thought, Okay, now I'm going to

771
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 5: be safe because Harve in Montana was you know, wasn't married,

772
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 5: and I was all alone in this big house with him,

773
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 5: and I thought, Okay, I'm going to be safe with

774
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 5: Nis and Barb, and I didn't realize until I went

775
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 5: to therapy at twenty nine years old after I graduated

776
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 5: from Columbia. That was when I recovered my memory of

777
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 5: having been molested around age five or six by Nus Wow.

778
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 5: And when I remembered it, I thought, oh my god,

779
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 5: how could I have forgotten it? Because I remember it

780
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 5: clear as day. I don't understand how I would not

781
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 5: have remembered that, But that's just how trauma works for kids,

782
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 5: especially or depending on you know, how severe the trauma is.

783
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 5: You know, that's a coping mechanism to forget those memories.

784
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 5: And had I remembered that at age fifteen or sixteen

785
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 5: at that time, I certainly would not have gone to

786
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 5: Nis and Barbs house. I would have known you can't trust, right,

787
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 5: But I just, yeah, I didn't remember it, and then

788
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 5: I learned. Last year, I did a trip to Amish

789
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 5: Country to do some filming and I saw my youngest

790
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 5: aunt on that side of the family, sister of both

791
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 5: Harv and Nis, and I told her, you know about Enus,

792
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 5: what he did to me and has done to at

793
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 5: least one other person. And I was actually in Wisconsin

794
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 5: for a court hearing for this other victim's case, and

795
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 5: my aunt Mary says, oh, yeah, he's always had a

796
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 5: problem like that, was her, just like casual.

797
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

798
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 5: Yeah. And I actually did not comprehend that what she

799
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 5: had said at the time until I listened to the

800
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 5: footage the audio after the trip was over, and I

801
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 5: was pretty much like just thrown into the spiral of

802
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 5: re traumatization again, you know. And it's like an example

803
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 5: of how trauma works, on how the brain works when

804
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 5: something is so traumatic, like something like hearing her I

805
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 5: had I comprehended it at that, like even that when

806
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 5: she like that was so traumatic for me that my

807
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 5: brain just shut it down and blocked it.

808
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I didn't even recognize it. That's so interesting. Wow,

809
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 6: our brains are wild.

810
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 5: Yeah. And this was an aunt who was like my playmate.

811
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 5: She's only I think seven years older than I am,

812
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 5: and she was more like my playmate or older sister

813
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 5: than an aunt for me when I was a kid.

814
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 5: And I couldn't believe that was her response. Oh well,

815
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 5: he silways had a problem with that, Okay, it's not

816
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 5: a big deal. That was her attitude, right, And I

817
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 5: don't you understand what I mean, what is wrong with you.

818
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow, what a way to distort reality. That's awful. Yeah, well,

819
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: and we should probably wrap up. I just like still

820
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 3: have more questions.

821
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 5: I so hard to keep my hand.

822
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 6: I could listen to you all day. This is so interesting. Okay, yeah, okay,

823
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 6: two things. Let let it go ahead.

824
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: Well one, I want to circle back to Rumspringer really fast,

825
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: because my perception was that, oh, the Amish must be

826
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: really devoted to the religion because they're given this opportunity

827
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: to choose whatever they want and go party and go

828
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 1: crazy for a year, and then they choose to come back.

829
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: And that's so open minded. So that's not real.

830
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 5: Not, No, that is not at all the reality. And

831
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 5: any reality show TV show that portrays it that way

832
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 5: they know themselves that that's not true. Wow, Okay, they

833
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 5: willingly and consciously portray it that way. All the self experts,

834
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 5: academic experts on us Amish also perpetuate that myth because

835
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 5: it's in their best interests to keep this mythology of

836
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 5: the perfect peaceful, especially white heteronormative society right right. And

837
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 5: so if you can perpetuate this lie that the children

838
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 5: actually get a choice and it's so open minded, Hey,

839
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 5: what a great way to keep that little perfect white

840
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,240
Speaker 5: culture going.

841
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah right, wow, great to know. Yeah, I'm so glad

842
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: you asked that question, Megan.

843
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it just depends on like there is definitely

844
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 5: partying and stuff that goes on and kids breaking the

845
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 5: rules and all of that, but that tends to happen

846
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 5: a lot more in the really big communities where there

847
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 5: are literally hundreds of teens and the parents just don't

848
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 5: have control over them, and you know, it's just something

849
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 5: sort of like, Okay, this has been happening for hundreds

850
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 5: of years and we just kind of look the other way.

851
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 5: But it's not at all allowed. It's not the religion,

852
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 5: and it's not what rumspringa means. Like I had mentioned earlier,

853
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 5: rumspringa is just a period of time from age sixteen

854
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 5: or seventeen until you get married. In the Amish church,

855
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 5: that's it. And of course, you know, if you're in

856
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 5: a smaller community or in a community that really really

857
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 5: clamps down on the teens and controls the teens during rumspringa,

858
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 5: then you don't have that. You wouldn't even be able

859
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 5: to go drink and party, like that's just crushed instantly.

860
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 5: The way to understand it is. Compare kids in New

861
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 5: York City versus kids in the middle of nowhere without

862
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 5: even like a Walmart close by, like right right, you know,

863
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 5: you're just not going to have that much opportunity to

864
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 5: do things you're not supposed to be doing.

865
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So then my final thing that I wanted

866
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: to ask you about is, can you just briefly sort

867
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: of summarize the work that you're doing around Wisconsin versus

868
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: Yoda and explain what that is?

869
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 5: Yes, So, Wisconsin versus Yoda is the nineteen seventy to

870
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 5: US Supreme Court case that decided that Amish children don't

871
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 5: have the right to an education past the eighth grade,

872
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 5: and furthermore, they don't have a right to any education

873
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 5: that the Amish religion disapproves of. Now, it was seen

874
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 5: as an Amish centric only case. It only applies to

875
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 5: those in the practicing Amish community. But of course, once

876
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 5: you pass a court case, anybody can point to it

877
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 5: as precedent and claim the same exemption or treatment for themselves.

878
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 5: So anybody in the United States can point to Yoda

879
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 5: and say it's against my religious beliefs to let my

880
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 5: child learn how to read. Literally, you can do that

881
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 5: thanks to Yoder. Wow. And what most people don't understand

882
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 5: is that the federal government doesn't hold that anybody has

883
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 5: a right to any education. If we're not thinking about

884
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 5: state constitutions or US Constitution, we just think that's a

885
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 5: right that we have. But the US Constitution doesn't explicitly

886
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 5: say that we have a right. And that's what the

887
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 5: Supreme Court justices use to say yes to passing Yoda

888
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 5: in favor of the Amish religion. Wow. So there are

889
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 5: states that have in their state constitution and explicit right

890
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 5: to education. But again, federal law overrides state law. So

891
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 5: anybody in any state anywhere in the US can say,

892
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 5: I don't care what the state constitution says, my child

893
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 5: should not learn how to read because that's against my religion.

894
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 6: Wow.

895
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: I never think about the rights of children, like children

896
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: should have the right to be able to be in

897
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 1: whatever religion that they want to be in, you know,

898
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: Like we don't give children the choice these situations, and

899
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: that's really important.

900
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 3: So what do we do?

901
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 5: Well, That's what I'm trying to do. And the nonprofit

902
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 5: I founded, the Amish Heritage Foundation, is working on that

903
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 5: to raise awareness about this case. What I just said.

904
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 5: That's step number one is are you aware of Yoda?

905
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 5: Are you aware that it's not just an Amish centric case. Actually,

906
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 5: this affects you too, and here's how it affects you.

907
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 5: And to just have this conversation about it. And one

908
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 5: way that we're going at it is trying to overturn

909
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 5: Wisconsin be yoda. But the complications trying to find someone withstanding,

910
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 5: someone that the court thinks has suffered enough of an

911
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 5: injury to say this should be overturned is way too

912
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 5: complicated for the remaining time we have unless you really

913
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 5: want to hear about it. So suffice it to say

914
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 5: that it'll probably take years and years and years until

915
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 5: I die or after, you know, to find someone withstanding,

916
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 5: which is a legal term, just you know, say oh, yes,

917
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 5: this person has suffrage enough that they have a claim

918
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 5: that you should be overturned. The other method towards rectifying

919
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 5: this is to make education and explicit federal right right

920
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 5: and so that's something that everybody can participate in. And yeah,

921
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 5: lobby for advocate for.

922
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 3: Cool. Well, thanks for all the work that you do.

923
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 3: You're awesome.

924
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: Yes, is there any final words you'd like to share?

925
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: And do you have social media you'd like.

926
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 5: To share, Yes, thank you, buy my book. All the

927
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 5: profits go to the Amish Heritage Foundation and forwards this

928
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 5: educational initiative.

929
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 3: Amazing.

930
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 5: And the website, my personal website is Tora Bontragger dot com,

931
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 5: just my first name, last name. And then the nonprofit

932
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 5: is Amish Heritage dot org. And we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

933
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 5: LinkedIn and YouTube. So those are the social platforms.

934
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you, Tora. So great to meet you.

935
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:12,879
Speaker 5: Thank you, so good to meet you too.

936
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 3: Okay, y'all that's Tora bon Schraeger. Damn, what a story.

937
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: Can't wait for a movie to come out about her.

938
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I say that about all of our guests. Yeah,

939
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: really Amish Girl in Manhattan starring Mary Kate Nashley. I

940
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: just want to make a quick note here that first

941
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 1: of all, it's upsetting that rum Springer, which everyone talks about,

942
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 1: is not actually a thing.

943
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 3: This idea that you can.

944
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: Leave for a year and like go shotgild and then

945
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: come back. But I wish it was, and I kind

946
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: of wish that was the case for every religion and

947
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: also just like everything.

948
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, society, you know.

949
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 3: That saying if you love something let it go.

950
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: If it comes back to you, it was always yours,

951
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, it never was, or whatever. Like,

952
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: we don't have to hold people hostage to our religions.

953
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: Let them be free and then make the decision for

954
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 1: them selves if they want to come back.

955
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 6: You know, that's really tempting the devil.

956
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 3: What can I say?

957
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 1: Yep, thanks Tora for enlightening us on this subject and

958
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: on her incredible life, And.

959
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for listening. We hope you

960
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 2: have an amazing week. We can't wait to talk to

961
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: you next week. In the meantime, remember to follow your gut,

962
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 2: watch out for red flax.

963
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 3: And never ever ever trusts me. Bye.