Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 2: It was in spring of eighteen o two that Ludwig
Speaker 2: van Beethoven realized he was beginning to go deaf. In
Speaker 2: an effort to pull himself out of a depression, he
Speaker 2: left Vienna for a small village five miles to the
Speaker 2: north to spend time in nature and see if he
Speaker 2: could find any musical inspiration. It was on a walk
Speaker 2: through the countryside that a melody popped into his head,
Speaker 2: a theme in E flat major. Eventually, over a year,
Speaker 2: that theme transformed into a full symphony, Beethoven's third titled
Speaker 2: Roika or Heroic. People far more knowledgeable about classical music
Speaker 2: than I am celebrate the symphony as groundbreaking, challenging, and brilliant,
Speaker 2: a landmark of Beethoven's career that I've seen described as
Speaker 2: the first Romantic symphony, marking the end of the classical period.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't originally titled Eroika. It had an earlier name,
Speaker 2: which Beethoven wrote himself on the symphony's title page. As
Speaker 2: soon as the work was completed in early eighteen oh four,
Speaker 2: Symphonia in Titulata Bonaparte Symphony titled Bonaparte. Though Beethoven was
Speaker 2: German living in Austria, there was plenty about Napoleon he
Speaker 2: found inspiring. Napoleon was only a year older than Beethoven,
Speaker 2: and they had both come from families outside the nobility,
Speaker 2: and they had both risen in the ranks because of
Speaker 2: their ability. As a young man, Beethoven was inspired by
Speaker 2: the promise of the French Revolution. He read philosophy and
Speaker 2: celebrated the possibility of a truly enlightened state, But like
Speaker 2: so many others in Europe, he became disillusioned as he
Speaker 2: watched on and saw the bloody excesses of where the
Speaker 2: revolution ended up. To Beethoven, Napoleon was a striking and
Speaker 2: romantic figure who had returned to France from his military
Speaker 2: victories abroad and was able to save the revolution from itself.
Speaker 2: From seventeen ninety five on, France was governed by a
Speaker 2: system known as the Directory, where there were five directors
Speaker 2: and two legislative bodies, but the government was chaotic and inefficient.
Speaker 2: With the exception of Napoleon's victories abroad, France had suffered
Speaker 2: a string of humiliating defeats, trade routes were cut off,
Speaker 2: land was sacrificed, and inflation was beginning to escape the
Speaker 2: back of control. In seventeen ninety nine, there was a
Speaker 2: coup ostensibly organized by one of the Directors, a man
Speaker 2: popularly known as the abbey cs. Cs knew that the
Speaker 2: delicate Directory was unstable, threatened by Royalists on the right
Speaker 2: and Jacobean on the left, and a new government would
Speaker 2: need to be established if the promises of the French
Speaker 2: Revolution were to be preserved in any form. And what
Speaker 2: better man was there to join him in that coup
Speaker 2: than the popular hero Napoleon Bonaparte, the brilliant young general
Speaker 2: who was met in the streets with cheers when he
Speaker 2: returned from Egypt. But Napoleon orchestrated something of a coup
Speaker 2: within a coup. After manipulating the legislative bodies of the
Speaker 2: Directory to leave Paris, Napoleon brought in armed grenadiers to
Speaker 2: ensure that in the new government, where there were supposed
Speaker 2: to be three consuls, he Napoleon, would be the first
Speaker 2: and most important consul. It was only called a coup
Speaker 2: or coup within a coup in hindsight, At the time,
Speaker 2: many including Beethoven, viewed Napoleon as a heroic figure, saving
Speaker 2: the French government from itself in order to uphold republican ideologies.
Speaker 2: Napoleon as consul was a Romantic figure out of classical antiquity,
Speaker 2: like a sage Roman consul of old. But then Beethoven
Speaker 2: got some bad news. In December eighteen o four, five
Speaker 2: years after Napoleon became first consul and less than a
Speaker 2: year after Beethoven named his new symphony after him, Napoleon
Speaker 2: declared himsel self emperor. According to the most popular version
Speaker 2: of the story, Beethoven became enraged and shouted quote, so
Speaker 2: he is no more than a common mortal. Now he
Speaker 2: too will tread underfoot all the rights of men and
Speaker 2: indulge only his ambition. Now he will think himself superior
Speaker 2: to all men and become a tyrant. Beethoven scratched over
Speaker 2: the word symphony titled Bonaparte with so much force that
Speaker 2: his pen ripped through the paper. The symphony was renamed
Speaker 2: simply and vaguely heroic Eroika. Napoleon remains one of the
Speaker 2: most popular and famous historical figures in European history. Recently,
Speaker 2: he was the center of Ridley Scott's twenty twenty three
Speaker 2: film starring Joaquin Phoenix. The French public had a fairly
Speaker 2: negative reaction to the film, which might have had something
Speaker 2: to do with how strange it must be for French
Speaker 2: speakers to see Napoleon such an iconic French figure speaking
Speaker 2: English with a full American accent. But the French public's
Speaker 2: perspective on the real historical Napoleon is a little more complicated.
Speaker 2: Was Napoleon the hero that France needed at the time,
Speaker 2: a man who preserved the ideals of the revolution, encoding
Speaker 2: them into the Napoleonic Code and giving the nation the
Speaker 2: order it's so desperately needed. Or was Napoleon a military
Speaker 2: dictator who dismissed a constitution he swore to uphold when
Speaker 2: it suited him in his quest for greater personal power.
Speaker 2: I'm Danish Swartz and this is noble blood. In order
Speaker 2: to explore Napoleon's modern day reputae, especially the way he's
Speaker 2: understood today in France, I'm thrilled to be talking about
Speaker 2: the Coup of eighteen Brumaire, Napoleon's first major jump to power.
Speaker 2: With Pascal Confrovo of the French Embassy in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: I am so thrilled to be here today talking to
Speaker 2: Pascal Confrovo, who is the press counselor for the French
Speaker 2: Embassy in Washington, d C. To talk about Napoleon with
Speaker 2: me today. Pascal, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4: Napoleon obviously has such a long and fascinating life. I mean,
Speaker 4: I could do this entire podcast just about episodes from
Speaker 4: his life, but we're going to focus a little bit
Speaker 4: on the coup. In English, we would say November ninth,
Speaker 4: but it's called the Coup of eighteen brumaire in French exactly.
Speaker 3: And thank you for for inviting us. What's what caught
Speaker 3: our eyes and why we were happy to talk with
Speaker 3: you that We're always happy when Americans like you and
Speaker 3: your audience are interested in French history and French figures.
Speaker 3: And we see that there is a big curiosity on
Speaker 3: Napoleon and more broadly on the French Revolution. Uh and uh.
Speaker 3: And the film of Scott of course, and that is
Speaker 3: that very well.
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, Napoleon is just one of the most
Speaker 4: fascinating figures in history. I thought the movie was fun,
Speaker 4: but obviously they took some historical liberties.
Speaker 5: Did you see it?
Speaker 3: I saw it. I watched it here of course before
Speaker 3: before talking to you, And yeah, the least I can
Speaker 3: say that it created some debate in France and also
Speaker 3: I guess in the US.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard that French people had had very strong
Speaker 4: opinions on it.
Speaker 3: A lot of persons were saying it it was less
Speaker 3: about nepleonself, that about Napleon and Jovishan, that it was
Speaker 3: about the love affair, and that made somewhere advising to
Speaker 3: to have a title that would be Nepoleon josephin That
Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 4: I also thought it was it's always a fun decision
Speaker 4: on a movie's part to give a character. Obviously they're
Speaker 4: speaking English in the film, but Joaquin Phoenix just speaks
Speaker 4: English with no accent, and I think for some that
Speaker 4: was a little disconcerting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's always for a French speaking audience, it's
Speaker 3: always interesting to see Napoleon speaks English. Indeed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, let's let's fast forward a little bit to
Speaker 4: the coup that initially brought Napoleon to power, obviously before
Speaker 4: he became an emperor. After the French Revolution, Napoleon was
Speaker 4: a general and served served the Constitution after the French Revolution,
Speaker 4: the Directory and won massive victories over in Egypt and
Speaker 4: returned to Paris a hero. Can you speak a little
Speaker 4: bit about what the Directory was like and what France
Speaker 4: was like when Napoleon returned from Egypt.
Speaker 3: Yes, we was tver, and there was also a lot
Speaker 3: of humility. Because I'm not speaking as a historian here,
Speaker 3: but more as a civil servants, and so I may
Speaker 3: not have all the little details. The date of eighteenth
Speaker 3: of Brumeer and nineteenth brumer actually because they could takes
Speaker 3: place on two days, is often taught at the end
Speaker 3: of the revolution in the French history, and Napoleon at
Speaker 3: that time was one of the youngest generals ever. He
Speaker 3: was serving the Republic and was serving among them also
Speaker 3: a man called Bajas, and he was coming back from Egypt.
Speaker 3: It was the last military operation he did, which was
Speaker 3: an operation less military than also a discovery. He had
Speaker 3: worked with him a lot of scientists going to the pyramids.
Speaker 3: He had discovered the Pierre deo Rosette, which was the
Speaker 3: one afterwards that allowed everyone to understand what the hieroglyphs
Speaker 3: were meaning, and so.
Speaker 5: He published the Rosetta Stone.
Speaker 3: Thank You, and so he was coming with a great aura.
Speaker 3: And this see also in the film that he was winning.
Speaker 3: He won some battle against the englishing tool in seventeen
Speaker 3: ninety three, which also brought him a lot of a
Speaker 3: lot of fame. And in seventeen ninety eight seventeen ninety nine,
Speaker 3: you had a kind of fatigue in in France, a
Speaker 3: fatigue of the worlds, because the revolution were also making
Speaker 3: was also a synonym of wars in France, a fatigue
Speaker 3: for the economy also, and I think he could feel
Speaker 3: that that people were willing to see, as we say,
Speaker 3: peace outside and order inside. And that's what he ran
Speaker 3: on in a way in seventeen ninety nine when he
Speaker 3: was coming back from Egypt.
Speaker 4: One thing that I think is so interesting is Napoleon.
Speaker 4: You can obviously frame his actions in so many different ways.
Speaker 4: One could frame what he did in overthrowing the Republic
Speaker 4: and the government of the Directory as him trying to
Speaker 4: save the revolution. This government was so unpopular, the economic
Speaker 4: state in France was unsustainable. You could say that by
Speaker 4: claiming power he was saving the government, saving the revolution,
Speaker 4: or you could present this idea that he was simply
Speaker 4: something of a military dictator. What do you think is
Speaker 4: more of the popular conception of Napoleon in France as
Speaker 4: it's sort of taught today.
Speaker 3: See exactly what you say. He was a master of
Speaker 3: communication also in that day, and he was also the
Speaker 3: one who wrote his own story history before the historians
Speaker 3: to them, and so he was very good at managing
Speaker 3: the image he wanted the people to have of him.
Speaker 3: And he has the two party you're saying, he's at
Speaker 3: the same time, and the coup is embodying that, and
Speaker 3: the Empire afterwards is embedding that that there are some
Speaker 3: lessons taken from the revolutions that will survive, the human rights,
Speaker 3: the equality, the end of the privileges Frost the church
Speaker 3: had or the nobility had, and so this will survive.
Speaker 3: And so he is in that aspect, he is the
Speaker 3: heir of the revolution. He is the one that will
Speaker 3: put these results of the revolution in the long term
Speaker 3: French political life. And at the same time, yeah, he
Speaker 3: he creates a regime that has nothing to do with
Speaker 3: the republican That was very that at the beginning, the
Speaker 3: Consulate has the appearance of republican then, which will in
Speaker 3: eighteen oh four become after after publicits will become an empire.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: One also interesting thing I feel like as an American,
Speaker 4: I do feel like I have to voice our little
Speaker 4: cameo that unfortunately, part of the problem of the runaway
Speaker 4: inflation in France and the challenges that the French Republic
Speaker 4: was facing economically was due to the fact that after
Speaker 4: the American Revolution, the American government decided not to repay
Speaker 4: some of the loans the way they were previously contracted,
Speaker 4: because that contract had been with the French king who
Speaker 4: was obviously no longer in charge of the government.
Speaker 5: So we had a little cameo there.
Speaker 3: There are debates on that I want indulged in it.
Speaker 3: Which is true is that the two revolutions are very linked,
Speaker 3: very much linked, and in spite of our histories earlier
Speaker 3: seventeen seventy six, but with many French persons taking also
Speaker 3: a part it of course Lafayette or Chambou, but also
Speaker 3: the ideas are coming to France as well in seventeen
Speaker 3: ninety nine a few years letter is our revolution that
Speaker 3: started with many things among them was also public finances.
Speaker 3: And so yes, there is definitely a link between the
Speaker 3: two revolutions, and that also while our two countries are
Speaker 3: so close in a way, and say, all just alliars,
Speaker 3: but yes, indeed, at that time your first ambassador to
Speaker 3: Paris is better man Franklin, and he makes he makes
Speaker 3: a crowd in Paris. Everyone loves him. He's very good
Speaker 3: public diplomacy at that time. Lafayette is a style in
Speaker 3: the US. I would I could even say that I
Speaker 3: think he's even more stylen in the US that he's
Speaker 3: in France. But he's more well known here than than
Speaker 3: in France.
Speaker 4: One more I find so fascinating whenever American figures pop
Speaker 4: up in French history. Talleyrand, who obviously is a is
Speaker 4: a massively important figure in French history, a man who
Speaker 4: survived regime change after regime change, who initially you know,
Speaker 4: helped Napoleon and his rise to power.
Speaker 5: Actoring the Republic.
Speaker 4: Tallyrand actually had to resign as Foreign Minister because he
Speaker 4: was one could say, you know, politely requesting or demanding
Speaker 4: a bribe of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from
Speaker 4: three American envoys, and American audiences might know one of
Speaker 4: the envoys happened to be the future massive Supreme Court
Speaker 4: Justice John Marshall and I just love realizing that two
Speaker 4: totally disparate historical figures that you would learn about in
Speaker 4: two different contexts actually interacted in that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they learned lessons from each other. They interacted, Tanya,
Speaker 3: you work quitting Wimmy. It's another so another French figure
Speaker 3: less known than Napoleon, and he plays in a way
Speaker 3: kind of continuity in French diplomacy among different regimes, starting
Speaker 3: from the Republic, so the Consulate of the Empire, and
Speaker 3: then he plays also a role in the restoration of
Speaker 3: the King.
Speaker 4: I'm fascinated by Tallyrand. I remember reading that there was
Speaker 4: sort of a parody book or pamphlet that came out
Speaker 4: ranking the weather veins of French politics, as in men
Speaker 4: who sort of changed their alliances, and itally Rand was
Speaker 4: top of the list.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And he has also a mixed image, I
Speaker 3: guess legacy for that.
Speaker 4: I do always respect someone who is able to survive
Speaker 4: in politics the way he did, and he was going
Speaker 4: back to the coup. He was a major figure and
Speaker 4: ally of Napoleon. Just to set the scene, the governmental
Speaker 4: system was called the Directory.
Speaker 5: There were two.
Speaker 4: Government bodies, the Council of Ancients and the five hundred,
Speaker 4: which was sort of the upper and lower legislative bodies.
Speaker 4: Napoleon I think recognized among with other politicians at the
Speaker 4: time that this government was not sustainable for the reasons
Speaker 4: we talked about. And Napoleon was such a popular figure
Speaker 4: that if he was sort of the spearhead of the coup,
Speaker 4: it would be it would be successful. And so he
Speaker 4: allied with a man known as Abb s S. And again,
Speaker 4: if i'm if, I'm I'm almost humiliated to be attempting
Speaker 4: to do French pronunciation in front of you. But what
Speaker 4: I love is that Napoleon, even as these men were
Speaker 4: sort of building a coup around Napoleon's popularity, Napoleon was
Speaker 4: sort of planning a coup within the coup to establish
Speaker 4: himself as the primary power.
Speaker 3: Exactly. And you see that also in the film I'll
Speaker 3: say Ces and the Coup. He needed what we say sword,
Speaker 3: He needed a saber to operate, to operationalize what he
Speaker 3: was thinking. And so Bonaparte said yes, and they on
Speaker 3: the eighteenth of Brumeer, everything happened as as planned. Basically,
Speaker 3: they were resigning the directors, so the executive branch was
Speaker 3: collectively resigning for the one who were among the coup,
Speaker 3: and for the one who were not aware of the coup.
Speaker 3: They were but forced to or under.
Speaker 5: Custody little either bribes or force.
Speaker 3: Exactly like pressure, and Napoleon was created. The one who
Speaker 3: was in charge of the army protecting Paris, and the
Speaker 3: council of the five hundreds that you were mentioning earlier
Speaker 3: was sent to Sanclue, which is a city next to
Speaker 3: not far from Paris, which was a bit further from
Speaker 3: Paris to be more into a neighborhood. So eighteenth of
Speaker 3: Rema works quite well for the plan. It's more nineteenth
Speaker 3: of Remare, which is a bit trickier, but maybe you
Speaker 3: want to tell it's now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So step one goes according to plan. They're able
Speaker 4: to pressure this council to sort of get outside the city,
Speaker 4: come to the suburbs as it were. I think probably
Speaker 4: for a few reasons, you know, to get away from
Speaker 4: the military support that might undermine this coup. And I
Speaker 4: believe if I'm correct, they were sort of able to
Speaker 4: convince the council to come out to the suburbs by
Speaker 4: saying that there was a jack of in coup that
Speaker 4: was happening. Because the Jacobin, the more extremest revolutionary branch,
Speaker 4: had been ousted from government a few months earlier, they
Speaker 4: were able to sort of get the legislative body out
Speaker 4: to the suburbs.
Speaker 5: And then when the.
Speaker 4: Legislative body realized that Napoleon walked into their chambers with
Speaker 4: a force of military grenadiers, I think they all sort
Speaker 4: of collectively realized, oh, we weren't brought out here for
Speaker 4: our protection.
Speaker 5: Something really extreme is happening, and.
Speaker 3: They welcome in. Welcome is not a good word, but
Speaker 3: they are very violent, a team of crazy. They expel
Speaker 3: him from the from the from the room. They say
Speaker 3: they treat him, they say that he's a dictator. It
Speaker 3: seems that for a moment Bonaparte is is UH losing
Speaker 3: faith in him, in him, in his good star. And
Speaker 3: then there's a truck of of of history where actually
Speaker 3: his brother Lucien is a head of the Council of
Speaker 3: the five hundred and UH, and he's the one who
Speaker 3: who has this stamina to delay the vote that was
Speaker 3: going by the five hundred that was going to outlaw UH,
Speaker 3: to outlaw Bonaparte. A bit like the same kind of
Speaker 3: votes that was going that had outlawed Robes a bit
Speaker 3: a few years earlier, and when at that time, when
Speaker 3: you were outlawed, it was also meaning a bit death
Speaker 3: at the same time. And and he delayed, he delayed
Speaker 3: the vote, and uh, and go take the guards the
Speaker 3: to to to come back in the in the in
Speaker 3: the room and expel. Actually the h a big part
Speaker 3: of the of this, this five hundred. And then they
Speaker 3: declare with the one who stay and who are supported,
Speaker 3: They declared the end of the directory, and they give
Speaker 3: the executive power to three consoles. Uh did you crew end?
Speaker 3: But apart so the first part of zuku. Yeah.
Speaker 4: And just to interrupt and backtrack a little bit, that
Speaker 4: vote when the Council of five hundred were faced with
Speaker 4: Napoleon coming in with soldiers and recognized that he was
Speaker 4: attempting to overthrow the constitution and they were about to
Speaker 4: declare him an outlaw. I'm so glad you brought up
Speaker 4: what happened to Robespiear because I find it so fascinating
Speaker 4: the contrast and how the two men responded. Robespear attempted suicide.
Speaker 5: I think actually the.
Speaker 4: Film depicted this quite accurately. Took a pistol attempted suicide
Speaker 4: and failed and just just blew off his jaw, which
Speaker 4: was a very grisly scene. But Napoleon, with the aid
Speaker 4: of his brother, was able to slip out, avoid the
Speaker 4: vote and then actually use the anger of the legislative
Speaker 4: body to rally his troops. I think Napoleon's the loyalty
Speaker 4: that he inspired in his troops was such a major
Speaker 4: drive in his ability to to breach power, because as
Speaker 4: he came.
Speaker 5: Out slightly worse for wear, literally.
Speaker 4: I think the another thing the movie accurately portrayed was
Speaker 4: that the council kind of tried to physically attack him,
Speaker 4: and he was able to use how sort of bloodied
Speaker 4: and ripped up he was, with his brother Lucian pointing
Speaker 4: at him and saying, look what they tried to do
Speaker 4: to him, rally the troops to come back in within
Speaker 4: a show of force.
Speaker 3: And Lucien at at that time it's saying that zie
Speaker 3: one who are attacking Buonaparte aren't the real traitors and
Speaker 3: that they are working for England, which is of course
Speaker 3: the worst you can say at that time.
Speaker 4: Oh even imagine, of course, well who else would want
Speaker 4: to betray the military hero Napoleon.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and you see all these scenes in the film.
Speaker 4: One thing that I think is so interesting is obviously
Speaker 4: the idea of the coup was that there would be
Speaker 4: three consoles, as you mentioned, but Napoleon fairly quickly manipulated
Speaker 4: the constitution so that he, as first counsel, would have
Speaker 4: much more power than the other two.
Speaker 3: Exactly. That's what you you call I think the cup
Speaker 3: within the cup, right, And yeah, the three conculs are
Speaker 3: not on the same are not at the same level,
Speaker 3: and he will very swiftly consolidate his power, his grips
Speaker 3: with the adoption of a new constitution, the consition of
Speaker 3: the year eight we are in the revolutionary still calendar
Speaker 3: at that time, and which gives him the authority to
Speaker 3: have the first draft of the law. And also he
Speaker 3: gives him also the visibility. I think in all this
Speaker 3: there is also a communication part which is always very
Speaker 3: important at that time, and he will have the leader
Speaker 3: on the image and then the comes very quickly and
Speaker 3: so yes, and are much less well known, and I
Speaker 3: think he he differently worked for that.
Speaker 4: Yes, one scene that stuck with me from the movie
Speaker 4: that of course was pulled directly from history because there
Speaker 4: are so many scenes where you're like, well, this is
Speaker 4: so cinematic, surely they just invented this. But when Napoleon
Speaker 4: sort of stumbled out of the Council of five hundred,
Speaker 4: when they sort of attacked him and Lucian was trying
Speaker 4: to rally the troops, Lucian grabbed a sword and said,
Speaker 4: I will kill Napoleon myself if he's a trader, And that,
Speaker 4: of course inspired a lot of trust, and that to
Speaker 4: me also speaks to I think from the outside. So
Speaker 4: please correct me if I'm mistaken about the French perspective,
Speaker 4: But I think Napoleon really was able to repair a
Speaker 4: sense of national pride and nationalism. After the Revolution, France
Speaker 4: had lost a lot of territories. Military defeats sort of
Speaker 4: stripped them of the territories that they had won at
Speaker 4: the end of the eighteenth century, like seventeen ninety six
Speaker 4: and seven, they were cut off from German and Italian markets.
Speaker 4: The so called you know, Second Coalition was sort of
Speaker 4: turning on France and Napoleon just as a figure because
Speaker 4: he had come from these amazing military victories, because he
Speaker 4: was speaking so eloquently about the power of France and
Speaker 4: invoking these political symbols meant to evoke you know, ancient Rome.
Speaker 4: I think they're I mean, reading from the outside, it
Speaker 4: seems very inspiring at a moment that there was a
Speaker 4: great need for national pride.
Speaker 3: Yes among the results of the Napoleon movement and actually
Speaker 3: of the revolution moment just before. He is a creation
Speaker 3: of a nation, of a modern nation, a nation which
Speaker 3: is not only embodied by a king, by a monarchy,
Speaker 3: but a nation because it's a regroupment of people that
Speaker 3: recognize themselves as member of a one entity. And so
Speaker 3: it's exactly at this moment, and he's fostering them these
Speaker 3: feeling of these nationals or patriotic feelings, and so he
Speaker 3: does it actually in France, but also in the just
Speaker 3: before with his first successors, and just also afterwards, actually
Speaker 3: in first eighteen andreds. He is fostering the German national
Speaker 3: sentiment or the Italian national sentiments. At that time, both
Speaker 3: Germany and Italy were not one state, so they were federally,
Speaker 3: they were kingdoms, sometimes depending together, sometimes completely standing alone,
Speaker 3: and he's fostering that also at the same time to kill,
Speaker 3: for instance, the former Holy Empire German Empire, which was
Speaker 3: existing for since Shannon mine for a very long time,
Speaker 3: for more than one thousand years, and the same time
Speaker 3: in Italy where they were like small kingdoms, and he
Speaker 3: is the instrument that is ring, among other things, the
Speaker 3: feeling of an Italian identity and nationality.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think that's so interesting.
Speaker 4: America is such a young country, obviously compared to Europe,
Speaker 4: but then you see that actually Germany as we know
Speaker 4: it today and United Italy are more recent than I
Speaker 4: think people realize. Italy wasn't unified until what was it,
Speaker 4: eighteen seventy. I think that's so fascinating to point out
Speaker 4: that Napoleon was a force behind some of that unifying sentiment.
Speaker 5: Can I ask? I think that.
Speaker 4: Even though obviously America and France were such great allies
Speaker 4: during the American Revolution, I think that over the centuries,
Speaker 4: America has sort of aligned itself with England and historically
Speaker 4: at least has sort of an Anglophilic perspective on history.
Speaker 4: And so I think when most people learn about Napoleon,
Speaker 4: it's through an English lens. They only, you know, people
Speaker 4: who are aren't aren't history bops, people who just know
Speaker 4: the broad headlines. I think that Napoleon was short, which
Speaker 4: you know, he was average height. That was sort of
Speaker 4: British propaganda, and they sort of see him as the
Speaker 4: the strong man of Europe, this dictator sort of the
Speaker 4: way that I think he's he's more understood in in
Speaker 4: England and Great Britain. Can you sort of speak to
Speaker 4: how Napoleon is viewed today in France?
Speaker 3: I would say you to come back on your first
Speaker 3: part of your of your question that yes, there is,
Speaker 3: there is, of course, uh maybe a British lecture of
Speaker 3: what you what you see of Napoleon. But I would
Speaker 3: also say that you and we see it that you
Speaker 3: have a French lecture of of of all service history.
Speaker 3: When we see how popular the motto oldest allies is.
Speaker 3: How you see when Nafayette is is celebrated here, when
Speaker 3: you see maybe the importance of ruschabu uh celebrated on
Speaker 3: the on the on the East coast. I mean, I
Speaker 3: maybe it's not generally, but we at the West coast,
Speaker 3: at the East coast, sorry, and in Washington, we feel,
Speaker 3: we feel it. We we see this this stronger proximity.
Speaker 3: And actually I don't know if Lafayette and Napoleon were
Speaker 3: very closed. I guess they met a few times, but
Speaker 3: they were not really not really closer both of them.
Speaker 3: Both of them were very young. When Lafaette came he
Speaker 3: was I think twenty three or twenty four in in
Speaker 3: particuping in Yorktown, And when Napoleon became general, he was
Speaker 3: also twenty four, so that you're really, really, really young.
Speaker 3: I think one of the brothers of Napoleon settled afterwards
Speaker 3: in New Jersey, or so Joseph, yeah, went to New Jersey,
Speaker 3: I guess, but Naplone himself never went to the US,
Speaker 3: And I guess Lafayette was seeing the US more as
Speaker 3: a as a land of opportunity, whereas a Nepalon was
Speaker 3: maybe seeing it more as a land of conquest, a conquest.
Speaker 3: But I say because he was. He sold the Louisiana
Speaker 3: in eighteen oh three. You remember that, of course, in
Speaker 3: a in a.
Speaker 5: Very generous deal to us. I will say.
Speaker 3: Gigantic, which was on the left bank of Mississippi, I
Speaker 3: frond the west bank of Mississippi. So just to just
Speaker 3: to remind in the way, there is a kind of
Speaker 3: American history of Napoleon that you could say, an American
Speaker 3: angle of Naphleon history that actually as a that I
Speaker 3: can hear when I'm when I'm here, and then now
Speaker 3: I'm I do.
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I do.
Speaker 4: I actually, I think that's a very important point, just
Speaker 4: to reiterate that it was Napoleon who sold Thomas Jefferson
Speaker 4: the massive I mean, the Louisiana purchase was a massive
Speaker 4: swath of what makes up the United States.
Speaker 3: So I think the double the size of the US
Speaker 3: by then.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, if I if you, if any listeners who don't
Speaker 4: actually remember the actual map, just google the Napoleon the
Speaker 4: Louisiana purchase and you will see how vast that amount
Speaker 4: of land is.
Speaker 5: That then, of course was explored by Lewis and Clark.
Speaker 4: But it's, uh, it's fascinating that Napoleon just sort of
Speaker 4: obviously he was distracted by affairs happening in Europe, and
Speaker 4: I think saw America as a bit of a an
Speaker 4: albatross at that moment, like a little bit of a distraction,
Speaker 4: but gave us a great deal.
Speaker 3: And then on the second part of your question, where
Speaker 3: you're saying, Okay, what's the image we have, it's in
Speaker 3: an image which is a complex. I'd say you have
Speaker 3: an angle, which is artistry. We find, for instance, you
Speaker 3: have this famous painting of David, which is the crowning
Speaker 3: of the of Napoleon and Jeordiphoax.
Speaker 5: Napoleon crowning himself, and so this is.
Speaker 3: A painting that everyone knows that. For instance, it was
Speaker 3: as the case a few decades ago. It's less the
Speaker 3: case now. You had some persons really learning all the battles.
Speaker 3: You know, it was a kind of part of the
Speaker 3: how history was taught or learned. So it was going
Speaker 3: from I don't know, Hotlits to Marango to also the
Speaker 3: defeat the Mosque Va, the Russian campaign or traffic down.
Speaker 3: But you had this I think it's a bit less
Speaker 3: now the case that we learned of him, we learn
Speaker 3: of him also about the results. So all this kind
Speaker 3: of what we could master Grant. I don't know how
Speaker 3: to translate that really granite mass. It's the kind of
Speaker 3: big institution that he created and that survived afterwards. You know,
Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century, I think we in France we
Speaker 3: tried every kind of regime possible, from an empire to republic,
Speaker 3: to kingdom to everything, and these kind of institutions survived.
Speaker 3: You had the civil code, for instance, that he created
Speaker 3: and that survived and it still exists. Now you have
Speaker 3: this creation of the Federal Reserve, which is called band
Speaker 3: de France. But you had the creation of the Lease,
Speaker 3: which is a high school, which was very different at
Speaker 3: that time. It was quite a bit military, but we
Speaker 3: still survive. Now, we had the creation of the institution
Speaker 3: of the prefet. You don't have prefe here, but it
Speaker 3: would be a kind of of governor in a state
Speaker 3: that would be appointed by the federal state and not
Speaker 3: elected by his constituent, and that would represent that would
Speaker 3: represent more the capital of the federal capital than the
Speaker 3: So all these institutions still still exist. And we also
Speaker 3: learn of course by the the part which are darker,
Speaker 3: such as haiti or slavery. And because it's a very
Speaker 3: important and I think that's where we are in France
Speaker 3: to give the closest to reality to truce history that
Speaker 3: we can do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, because Napoleon is he's a fascinating figure,
Speaker 4: I think because of his many contradictions. Obviously, the Napoleonic
Speaker 4: Code was so vital to upholding, you know, basic French rights.
Speaker 4: And even though Napoleon initially upheld the revolutionary ban on slavery,
Speaker 4: he did at a certain point undo that and and
Speaker 4: reinstitute slavery in the in the French colonies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And so this is something that we don't
Speaker 3: put under the run at all. This is something that
Speaker 3: we uh that we learn are among everything, and so
Speaker 3: it's always also interesting. So you have this reality and
Speaker 3: then you have the willyas of how history is stalled
Speaker 3: about him, because I was sing also at the beginning
Speaker 3: that he was among the he was the first also
Speaker 3: to tell his own story, the memoirs, the own numoir
Speaker 3: when he was on the Santa Anna island after the
Speaker 3: after his fall, and then also so many historians on there.
Speaker 3: It's one of the of the subjects in the French
Speaker 3: history which is the richest, I mean in so many
Speaker 3: people who went on there. And so you have some
Speaker 3: who who like and who will try to keep on
Speaker 3: in the wake of the strong man who and tried
Speaker 3: to say, oh, France at that time was strong. And
Speaker 3: you will have the others who will who will go
Speaker 3: more on the institution that we that that he built.
Speaker 3: And so you have in a way tell me what
Speaker 3: the image of Nemylon, of Nepoleon you have, and I
Speaker 3: will tell you who.
Speaker 4: You are that's brilliant, Thank you. I mean that, that's
Speaker 4: what a perspective I think. Napoleon is absolutely something of
Speaker 4: a cipher. It's something of a In English, we would
Speaker 4: call it a Rorjack test, where you can look at
Speaker 4: him and what you well, Pascal, thank you so much
Speaker 4: for joining me. This was such a fascinating conversation, and
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to get to talk about one of
Speaker 4: my favorite historical figures, Napoleon with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much. And at the Frenchiman, see,
Speaker 3: we are always glad when in the US you are
Speaker 3: interested in French history, and in this case in the
Speaker 3: French history which is European, his world history also, but
Speaker 3: also something very linked to American history at that.
Speaker 4: Time, incredibly linked to American history. And please come back
Speaker 4: at any time and talk more.
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