1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: It was in spring of eighteen o two that Ludwig 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 2: van Beethoven realized he was beginning to go deaf. In 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: an effort to pull himself out of a depression, he 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: left Vienna for a small village five miles to the 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: north to spend time in nature and see if he 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: could find any musical inspiration. It was on a walk 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: through the countryside that a melody popped into his head, 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: a theme in E flat major. Eventually, over a year, 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: that theme transformed into a full symphony, Beethoven's third titled 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: Roika or Heroic. People far more knowledgeable about classical music 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: than I am celebrate the symphony as groundbreaking, challenging, and brilliant, 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: a landmark of Beethoven's career that I've seen described as 15 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: the first Romantic symphony, marking the end of the classical period. 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: But it wasn't originally titled Eroika. It had an earlier name, 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: which Beethoven wrote himself on the symphony's title page. As 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 2: soon as the work was completed in early eighteen oh four, 19 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: Symphonia in Titulata Bonaparte Symphony titled Bonaparte. Though Beethoven was 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: German living in Austria, there was plenty about Napoleon he 21 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: found inspiring. Napoleon was only a year older than Beethoven, 22 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: and they had both come from families outside the nobility, 23 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: and they had both risen in the ranks because of 24 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: their ability. As a young man, Beethoven was inspired by 25 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: the promise of the French Revolution. He read philosophy and 26 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: celebrated the possibility of a truly enlightened state, But like 27 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: so many others in Europe, he became disillusioned as he 28 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: watched on and saw the bloody excesses of where the 29 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: revolution ended up. To Beethoven, Napoleon was a striking and 30 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: romantic figure who had returned to France from his military 31 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: victories abroad and was able to save the revolution from itself. 32 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: From seventeen ninety five on, France was governed by a 33 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: system known as the Directory, where there were five directors 34 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: and two legislative bodies, but the government was chaotic and inefficient. 35 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: With the exception of Napoleon's victories abroad, France had suffered 36 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: a string of humiliating defeats, trade routes were cut off, 37 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: land was sacrificed, and inflation was beginning to escape the 38 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: back of control. In seventeen ninety nine, there was a 39 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: coup ostensibly organized by one of the Directors, a man 40 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: popularly known as the abbey cs. Cs knew that the 41 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: delicate Directory was unstable, threatened by Royalists on the right 42 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: and Jacobean on the left, and a new government would 43 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: need to be established if the promises of the French 44 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: Revolution were to be preserved in any form. And what 45 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: better man was there to join him in that coup 46 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: than the popular hero Napoleon Bonaparte, the brilliant young general 47 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: who was met in the streets with cheers when he 48 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: returned from Egypt. But Napoleon orchestrated something of a coup 49 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: within a coup. After manipulating the legislative bodies of the 50 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: Directory to leave Paris, Napoleon brought in armed grenadiers to 51 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: ensure that in the new government, where there were supposed 52 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: to be three consuls, he Napoleon, would be the first 53 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: and most important consul. It was only called a coup 54 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: or coup within a coup in hindsight, At the time, 55 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 2: many including Beethoven, viewed Napoleon as a heroic figure, saving 56 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: the French government from itself in order to uphold republican ideologies. 57 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: Napoleon as consul was a Romantic figure out of classical antiquity, 58 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: like a sage Roman consul of old. But then Beethoven 59 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: got some bad news. In December eighteen o four, five 60 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 2: years after Napoleon became first consul and less than a 61 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 2: year after Beethoven named his new symphony after him, Napoleon 62 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: declared himsel self emperor. According to the most popular version 63 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: of the story, Beethoven became enraged and shouted quote, so 64 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 2: he is no more than a common mortal. Now he 65 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: too will tread underfoot all the rights of men and 66 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: indulge only his ambition. Now he will think himself superior 67 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: to all men and become a tyrant. Beethoven scratched over 68 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: the word symphony titled Bonaparte with so much force that 69 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: his pen ripped through the paper. The symphony was renamed 70 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: simply and vaguely heroic Eroika. Napoleon remains one of the 71 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: most popular and famous historical figures in European history. Recently, 72 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: he was the center of Ridley Scott's twenty twenty three 73 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: film starring Joaquin Phoenix. The French public had a fairly 74 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 2: negative reaction to the film, which might have had something 75 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: to do with how strange it must be for French 76 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: speakers to see Napoleon such an iconic French figure speaking 77 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: English with a full American accent. But the French public's 78 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: perspective on the real historical Napoleon is a little more complicated. 79 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: Was Napoleon the hero that France needed at the time, 80 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: a man who preserved the ideals of the revolution, encoding 81 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: them into the Napoleonic Code and giving the nation the 82 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: order it's so desperately needed. Or was Napoleon a military 83 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: dictator who dismissed a constitution he swore to uphold when 84 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: it suited him in his quest for greater personal power. 85 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: I'm Danish Swartz and this is noble blood. In order 86 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: to explore Napoleon's modern day reputae, especially the way he's 87 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: understood today in France, I'm thrilled to be talking about 88 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: the Coup of eighteen Brumaire, Napoleon's first major jump to power. 89 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: With Pascal Confrovo of the French Embassy in Washington, d C. 90 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: I am so thrilled to be here today talking to 91 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: Pascal Confrovo, who is the press counselor for the French 92 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: Embassy in Washington, d C. To talk about Napoleon with 93 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: me today. Pascal, thank you so much for joining me. 94 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 95 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: Napoleon obviously has such a long and fascinating life. I mean, 96 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 4: I could do this entire podcast just about episodes from 97 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 4: his life, but we're going to focus a little bit 98 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 4: on the coup. In English, we would say November ninth, 99 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 4: but it's called the Coup of eighteen brumaire in French exactly. 100 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: And thank you for for inviting us. What's what caught 101 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: our eyes and why we were happy to talk with 102 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: you that We're always happy when Americans like you and 103 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 3: your audience are interested in French history and French figures. 104 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: And we see that there is a big curiosity on 105 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 3: Napoleon and more broadly on the French Revolution. Uh and uh. 106 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: And the film of Scott of course, and that is 107 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 3: that very well. 108 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, Napoleon is just one of the most 109 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: fascinating figures in history. I thought the movie was fun, 110 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 4: but obviously they took some historical liberties. 111 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 5: Did you see it? 112 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: I saw it. I watched it here of course before 113 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 3: before talking to you, And yeah, the least I can 114 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: say that it created some debate in France and also 115 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 3: I guess in the US. 116 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard that French people had had very strong 117 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: opinions on it. 118 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: A lot of persons were saying it it was less 119 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: about nepleonself, that about Napleon and Jovishan, that it was 120 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: about the love affair, and that made somewhere advising to 121 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: to have a title that would be Nepoleon josephin That 122 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense. 123 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 4: I also thought it was it's always a fun decision 124 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 4: on a movie's part to give a character. Obviously they're 125 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: speaking English in the film, but Joaquin Phoenix just speaks 126 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 4: English with no accent, and I think for some that 127 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 4: was a little disconcerting. 128 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's always for a French speaking audience, it's 129 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: always interesting to see Napoleon speaks English. Indeed. 130 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, let's let's fast forward a little bit to 131 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 4: the coup that initially brought Napoleon to power, obviously before 132 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 4: he became an emperor. After the French Revolution, Napoleon was 133 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 4: a general and served served the Constitution after the French Revolution, 134 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 4: the Directory and won massive victories over in Egypt and 135 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 4: returned to Paris a hero. Can you speak a little 136 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 4: bit about what the Directory was like and what France 137 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 4: was like when Napoleon returned from Egypt. 138 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: Yes, we was tver, and there was also a lot 139 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 3: of humility. Because I'm not speaking as a historian here, 140 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: but more as a civil servants, and so I may 141 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: not have all the little details. The date of eighteenth 142 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: of Brumeer and nineteenth brumer actually because they could takes 143 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: place on two days, is often taught at the end 144 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: of the revolution in the French history, and Napoleon at 145 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: that time was one of the youngest generals ever. He 146 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: was serving the Republic and was serving among them also 147 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: a man called Bajas, and he was coming back from Egypt. 148 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: It was the last military operation he did, which was 149 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: an operation less military than also a discovery. He had 150 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: worked with him a lot of scientists going to the pyramids. 151 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: He had discovered the Pierre deo Rosette, which was the 152 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: one afterwards that allowed everyone to understand what the hieroglyphs 153 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: were meaning, and so. 154 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 5: He published the Rosetta Stone. 155 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 3: Thank You, and so he was coming with a great aura. 156 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: And this see also in the film that he was winning. 157 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: He won some battle against the englishing tool in seventeen 158 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: ninety three, which also brought him a lot of a 159 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 3: lot of fame. And in seventeen ninety eight seventeen ninety nine, 160 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: you had a kind of fatigue in in France, a 161 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: fatigue of the worlds, because the revolution were also making 162 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 3: was also a synonym of wars in France, a fatigue 163 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: for the economy also, and I think he could feel 164 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: that that people were willing to see, as we say, 165 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 3: peace outside and order inside. And that's what he ran 166 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 3: on in a way in seventeen ninety nine when he 167 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: was coming back from Egypt. 168 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 4: One thing that I think is so interesting is Napoleon. 169 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 4: You can obviously frame his actions in so many different ways. 170 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 4: One could frame what he did in overthrowing the Republic 171 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 4: and the government of the Directory as him trying to 172 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 4: save the revolution. This government was so unpopular, the economic 173 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 4: state in France was unsustainable. You could say that by 174 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: claiming power he was saving the government, saving the revolution, 175 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 4: or you could present this idea that he was simply 176 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 4: something of a military dictator. What do you think is 177 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 4: more of the popular conception of Napoleon in France as 178 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 4: it's sort of taught today. 179 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: See exactly what you say. He was a master of 180 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: communication also in that day, and he was also the 181 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: one who wrote his own story history before the historians 182 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: to them, and so he was very good at managing 183 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: the image he wanted the people to have of him. 184 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: And he has the two party you're saying, he's at 185 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: the same time, and the coup is embodying that, and 186 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 3: the Empire afterwards is embedding that that there are some 187 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: lessons taken from the revolutions that will survive, the human rights, 188 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: the equality, the end of the privileges Frost the church 189 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: had or the nobility had, and so this will survive. 190 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: And so he is in that aspect, he is the 191 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 3: heir of the revolution. He is the one that will 192 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 3: put these results of the revolution in the long term 193 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 3: French political life. And at the same time, yeah, he 194 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: he creates a regime that has nothing to do with 195 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: the republican That was very that at the beginning, the 196 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: Consulate has the appearance of republican then, which will in 197 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 3: eighteen oh four become after after publicits will become an empire. 198 00:13:58,840 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 199 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 4: One also interesting thing I feel like as an American, 200 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 4: I do feel like I have to voice our little 201 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 4: cameo that unfortunately, part of the problem of the runaway 202 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: inflation in France and the challenges that the French Republic 203 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 4: was facing economically was due to the fact that after 204 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 4: the American Revolution, the American government decided not to repay 205 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: some of the loans the way they were previously contracted, 206 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 4: because that contract had been with the French king who 207 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 4: was obviously no longer in charge of the government. 208 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 5: So we had a little cameo there. 209 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: There are debates on that I want indulged in it. 210 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: Which is true is that the two revolutions are very linked, 211 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 3: very much linked, and in spite of our histories earlier 212 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: seventeen seventy six, but with many French persons taking also 213 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: a part it of course Lafayette or Chambou, but also 214 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 3: the ideas are coming to France as well in seventeen 215 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: ninety nine a few years letter is our revolution that 216 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: started with many things among them was also public finances. 217 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: And so yes, there is definitely a link between the 218 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 3: two revolutions, and that also while our two countries are 219 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: so close in a way, and say, all just alliars, 220 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: but yes, indeed, at that time your first ambassador to 221 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: Paris is better man Franklin, and he makes he makes 222 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 3: a crowd in Paris. Everyone loves him. He's very good 223 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 3: public diplomacy at that time. Lafayette is a style in 224 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: the US. I would I could even say that I 225 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: think he's even more stylen in the US that he's 226 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: in France. But he's more well known here than than 227 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: in France. 228 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: One more I find so fascinating whenever American figures pop 229 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 4: up in French history. Talleyrand, who obviously is a is 230 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 4: a massively important figure in French history, a man who 231 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 4: survived regime change after regime change, who initially you know, 232 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 4: helped Napoleon and his rise to power. 233 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 5: Actoring the Republic. 234 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 4: Tallyrand actually had to resign as Foreign Minister because he 235 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: was one could say, you know, politely requesting or demanding 236 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 4: a bribe of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars from 237 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 4: three American envoys, and American audiences might know one of 238 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 4: the envoys happened to be the future massive Supreme Court 239 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 4: Justice John Marshall and I just love realizing that two 240 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 4: totally disparate historical figures that you would learn about in 241 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 4: two different contexts actually interacted in that way. 242 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they learned lessons from each other. They interacted, Tanya, 243 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: you work quitting Wimmy. It's another so another French figure 244 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: less known than Napoleon, and he plays in a way 245 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: kind of continuity in French diplomacy among different regimes, starting 246 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: from the Republic, so the Consulate of the Empire, and 247 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 3: then he plays also a role in the restoration of 248 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: the King. 249 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 4: I'm fascinated by Tallyrand. I remember reading that there was 250 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 4: sort of a parody book or pamphlet that came out 251 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 4: ranking the weather veins of French politics, as in men 252 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 4: who sort of changed their alliances, and itally Rand was 253 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 4: top of the list. 254 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And he has also a mixed image, I 255 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: guess legacy for that. 256 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 4: I do always respect someone who is able to survive 257 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 4: in politics the way he did, and he was going 258 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: back to the coup. He was a major figure and 259 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 4: ally of Napoleon. Just to set the scene, the governmental 260 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 4: system was called the Directory. 261 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 5: There were two. 262 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 4: Government bodies, the Council of Ancients and the five hundred, 263 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 4: which was sort of the upper and lower legislative bodies. 264 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 4: Napoleon I think recognized among with other politicians at the 265 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 4: time that this government was not sustainable for the reasons 266 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 4: we talked about. And Napoleon was such a popular figure 267 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 4: that if he was sort of the spearhead of the coup, 268 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 4: it would be it would be successful. And so he 269 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 4: allied with a man known as Abb s S. And again, 270 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 4: if i'm if, I'm I'm almost humiliated to be attempting 271 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: to do French pronunciation in front of you. But what 272 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 4: I love is that Napoleon, even as these men were 273 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 4: sort of building a coup around Napoleon's popularity, Napoleon was 274 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 4: sort of planning a coup within the coup to establish 275 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 4: himself as the primary power. 276 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 3: Exactly. And you see that also in the film I'll 277 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 3: say Ces and the Coup. He needed what we say sword, 278 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: He needed a saber to operate, to operationalize what he 279 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: was thinking. And so Bonaparte said yes, and they on 280 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 3: the eighteenth of Brumeer, everything happened as as planned. Basically, 281 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 3: they were resigning the directors, so the executive branch was 282 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 3: collectively resigning for the one who were among the coup, 283 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 3: and for the one who were not aware of the coup. 284 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: They were but forced to or under. 285 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 5: Custody little either bribes or force. 286 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 3: Exactly like pressure, and Napoleon was created. The one who 287 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 3: was in charge of the army protecting Paris, and the 288 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 3: council of the five hundreds that you were mentioning earlier 289 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 3: was sent to Sanclue, which is a city next to 290 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 3: not far from Paris, which was a bit further from 291 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 3: Paris to be more into a neighborhood. So eighteenth of 292 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: Rema works quite well for the plan. It's more nineteenth 293 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: of Remare, which is a bit trickier, but maybe you 294 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: want to tell it's now. 295 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, So step one goes according to plan. They're able 296 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 4: to pressure this council to sort of get outside the city, 297 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: come to the suburbs as it were. I think probably 298 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 4: for a few reasons, you know, to get away from 299 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 4: the military support that might undermine this coup. And I 300 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 4: believe if I'm correct, they were sort of able to 301 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 4: convince the council to come out to the suburbs by 302 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 4: saying that there was a jack of in coup that 303 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 4: was happening. Because the Jacobin, the more extremest revolutionary branch, 304 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 4: had been ousted from government a few months earlier, they 305 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 4: were able to sort of get the legislative body out 306 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: to the suburbs. 307 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 5: And then when the. 308 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 4: Legislative body realized that Napoleon walked into their chambers with 309 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: a force of military grenadiers, I think they all sort 310 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 4: of collectively realized, oh, we weren't brought out here for 311 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 4: our protection. 312 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 5: Something really extreme is happening, and. 313 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: They welcome in. Welcome is not a good word, but 314 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 3: they are very violent, a team of crazy. They expel 315 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: him from the from the from the room. They say 316 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 3: they treat him, they say that he's a dictator. It 317 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: seems that for a moment Bonaparte is is UH losing 318 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: faith in him, in him, in his good star. And 319 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: then there's a truck of of of history where actually 320 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 3: his brother Lucien is a head of the Council of 321 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 3: the five hundred and UH, and he's the one who 322 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: who has this stamina to delay the vote that was 323 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 3: going by the five hundred that was going to outlaw UH, 324 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: to outlaw Bonaparte. A bit like the same kind of 325 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 3: votes that was going that had outlawed Robes a bit 326 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 3: a few years earlier, and when at that time, when 327 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: you were outlawed, it was also meaning a bit death 328 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 3: at the same time. And and he delayed, he delayed 329 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 3: the vote, and uh, and go take the guards the 330 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: to to to come back in the in the in 331 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: the room and expel. Actually the h a big part 332 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: of the of this, this five hundred. And then they 333 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: declare with the one who stay and who are supported, 334 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 3: They declared the end of the directory, and they give 335 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 3: the executive power to three consoles. Uh did you crew end? 336 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: But apart so the first part of zuku. Yeah. 337 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 4: And just to interrupt and backtrack a little bit, that 338 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 4: vote when the Council of five hundred were faced with 339 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 4: Napoleon coming in with soldiers and recognized that he was 340 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 4: attempting to overthrow the constitution and they were about to 341 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 4: declare him an outlaw. I'm so glad you brought up 342 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 4: what happened to Robespiear because I find it so fascinating 343 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 4: the contrast and how the two men responded. Robespear attempted suicide. 344 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 5: I think actually the. 345 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 4: Film depicted this quite accurately. Took a pistol attempted suicide 346 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 4: and failed and just just blew off his jaw, which 347 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 4: was a very grisly scene. But Napoleon, with the aid 348 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 4: of his brother, was able to slip out, avoid the 349 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: vote and then actually use the anger of the legislative 350 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 4: body to rally his troops. I think Napoleon's the loyalty 351 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 4: that he inspired in his troops was such a major 352 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 4: drive in his ability to to breach power, because as 353 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 4: he came. 354 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 5: Out slightly worse for wear, literally. 355 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: I think the another thing the movie accurately portrayed was 356 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 4: that the council kind of tried to physically attack him, 357 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 4: and he was able to use how sort of bloodied 358 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 4: and ripped up he was, with his brother Lucian pointing 359 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 4: at him and saying, look what they tried to do 360 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 4: to him, rally the troops to come back in within 361 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: a show of force. 362 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: And Lucien at at that time it's saying that zie 363 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 3: one who are attacking Buonaparte aren't the real traitors and 364 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 3: that they are working for England, which is of course 365 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 3: the worst you can say at that time. 366 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 4: Oh even imagine, of course, well who else would want 367 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 4: to betray the military hero Napoleon. 368 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 3: Exactly, and you see all these scenes in the film. 369 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 4: One thing that I think is so interesting is obviously 370 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 4: the idea of the coup was that there would be 371 00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 4: three consoles, as you mentioned, but Napoleon fairly quickly manipulated 372 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: the constitution so that he, as first counsel, would have 373 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 4: much more power than the other two. 374 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 3: Exactly. That's what you you call I think the cup 375 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 3: within the cup, right, And yeah, the three conculs are 376 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: not on the same are not at the same level, 377 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 3: and he will very swiftly consolidate his power, his grips 378 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: with the adoption of a new constitution, the consition of 379 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: the year eight we are in the revolutionary still calendar 380 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: at that time, and which gives him the authority to 381 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 3: have the first draft of the law. And also he 382 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: gives him also the visibility. I think in all this 383 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: there is also a communication part which is always very 384 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 3: important at that time, and he will have the leader 385 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 3: on the image and then the comes very quickly and 386 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: so yes, and are much less well known, and I 387 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 3: think he he differently worked for that. 388 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 4: Yes, one scene that stuck with me from the movie 389 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 4: that of course was pulled directly from history because there 390 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 4: are so many scenes where you're like, well, this is 391 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 4: so cinematic, surely they just invented this. But when Napoleon 392 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 4: sort of stumbled out of the Council of five hundred, 393 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 4: when they sort of attacked him and Lucian was trying 394 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 4: to rally the troops, Lucian grabbed a sword and said, 395 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 4: I will kill Napoleon myself if he's a trader, And that, 396 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 4: of course inspired a lot of trust, and that to 397 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 4: me also speaks to I think from the outside. So 398 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 4: please correct me if I'm mistaken about the French perspective, 399 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 4: But I think Napoleon really was able to repair a 400 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 4: sense of national pride and nationalism. After the Revolution, France 401 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 4: had lost a lot of territories. Military defeats sort of 402 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 4: stripped them of the territories that they had won at 403 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 4: the end of the eighteenth century, like seventeen ninety six 404 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 4: and seven, they were cut off from German and Italian markets. 405 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 4: The so called you know, Second Coalition was sort of 406 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 4: turning on France and Napoleon just as a figure because 407 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 4: he had come from these amazing military victories, because he 408 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 4: was speaking so eloquently about the power of France and 409 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 4: invoking these political symbols meant to evoke you know, ancient Rome. 410 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 4: I think they're I mean, reading from the outside, it 411 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 4: seems very inspiring at a moment that there was a 412 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 4: great need for national pride. 413 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 3: Yes among the results of the Napoleon movement and actually 414 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 3: of the revolution moment just before. He is a creation 415 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 3: of a nation, of a modern nation, a nation which 416 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 3: is not only embodied by a king, by a monarchy, 417 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 3: but a nation because it's a regroupment of people that 418 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: recognize themselves as member of a one entity. And so 419 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 3: it's exactly at this moment, and he's fostering them these 420 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 3: feeling of these nationals or patriotic feelings, and so he 421 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: does it actually in France, but also in the just 422 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 3: before with his first successors, and just also afterwards, actually 423 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 3: in first eighteen andreds. He is fostering the German national 424 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 3: sentiment or the Italian national sentiments. At that time, both 425 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: Germany and Italy were not one state, so they were federally, 426 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 3: they were kingdoms, sometimes depending together, sometimes completely standing alone, 427 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: and he's fostering that also at the same time to kill, 428 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: for instance, the former Holy Empire German Empire, which was 429 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 3: existing for since Shannon mine for a very long time, 430 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 3: for more than one thousand years, and the same time 431 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 3: in Italy where they were like small kingdoms, and he 432 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 3: is the instrument that is ring, among other things, the 433 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: feeling of an Italian identity and nationality. 434 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think that's so interesting. 435 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 4: America is such a young country, obviously compared to Europe, 436 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: but then you see that actually Germany as we know 437 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 4: it today and United Italy are more recent than I 438 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: think people realize. Italy wasn't unified until what was it, 439 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 4: eighteen seventy. I think that's so fascinating to point out 440 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 4: that Napoleon was a force behind some of that unifying sentiment. 441 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 5: Can I ask? I think that. 442 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 4: Even though obviously America and France were such great allies 443 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 4: during the American Revolution, I think that over the centuries, 444 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 4: America has sort of aligned itself with England and historically 445 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 4: at least has sort of an Anglophilic perspective on history. 446 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 4: And so I think when most people learn about Napoleon, 447 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 4: it's through an English lens. They only, you know, people 448 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 4: who are aren't aren't history bops, people who just know 449 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 4: the broad headlines. I think that Napoleon was short, which 450 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 4: you know, he was average height. That was sort of 451 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 4: British propaganda, and they sort of see him as the 452 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 4: the strong man of Europe, this dictator sort of the 453 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 4: way that I think he's he's more understood in in 454 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 4: England and Great Britain. Can you sort of speak to 455 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 4: how Napoleon is viewed today in France? 456 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 3: I would say you to come back on your first 457 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 3: part of your of your question that yes, there is, 458 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: there is, of course, uh maybe a British lecture of 459 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 3: what you what you see of Napoleon. But I would 460 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 3: also say that you and we see it that you 461 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 3: have a French lecture of of of all service history. 462 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: When we see how popular the motto oldest allies is. 463 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 3: How you see when Nafayette is is celebrated here, when 464 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: you see maybe the importance of ruschabu uh celebrated on 465 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 3: the on the on the East coast. I mean, I 466 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 3: maybe it's not generally, but we at the West coast, 467 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 3: at the East coast, sorry, and in Washington, we feel, 468 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: we feel it. We we see this this stronger proximity. 469 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 3: And actually I don't know if Lafayette and Napoleon were 470 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 3: very closed. I guess they met a few times, but 471 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 3: they were not really not really closer both of them. 472 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 3: Both of them were very young. When Lafaette came he 473 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 3: was I think twenty three or twenty four in in 474 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: particuping in Yorktown, And when Napoleon became general, he was 475 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 3: also twenty four, so that you're really, really, really young. 476 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 3: I think one of the brothers of Napoleon settled afterwards 477 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 3: in New Jersey, or so Joseph, yeah, went to New Jersey, 478 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 3: I guess, but Naplone himself never went to the US, 479 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,479 Speaker 3: And I guess Lafayette was seeing the US more as 480 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 3: a as a land of opportunity, whereas a Nepalon was 481 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: maybe seeing it more as a land of conquest, a conquest. 482 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: But I say because he was. He sold the Louisiana 483 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 3: in eighteen oh three. You remember that, of course, in 484 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: a in a. 485 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 5: Very generous deal to us. I will say. 486 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 3: Gigantic, which was on the left bank of Mississippi, I 487 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: frond the west bank of Mississippi. So just to just 488 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,719 Speaker 3: to remind in the way, there is a kind of 489 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 3: American history of Napoleon that you could say, an American 490 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 3: angle of Naphleon history that actually as a that I 491 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: can hear when I'm when I'm here, and then now 492 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 3: I'm I do. 493 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 5: I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I do. 494 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 4: I actually, I think that's a very important point, just 495 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 4: to reiterate that it was Napoleon who sold Thomas Jefferson 496 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 4: the massive I mean, the Louisiana purchase was a massive 497 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 4: swath of what makes up the United States. 498 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: So I think the double the size of the US 499 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: by then. 500 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: Absolutely, if I if you, if any listeners who don't 501 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 4: actually remember the actual map, just google the Napoleon the 502 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 4: Louisiana purchase and you will see how vast that amount 503 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 4: of land is. 504 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 5: That then, of course was explored by Lewis and Clark. 505 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 4: But it's, uh, it's fascinating that Napoleon just sort of 506 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 4: obviously he was distracted by affairs happening in Europe, and 507 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 4: I think saw America as a bit of a an 508 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 4: albatross at that moment, like a little bit of a distraction, 509 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 4: but gave us a great deal. 510 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 3: And then on the second part of your question, where 511 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 3: you're saying, Okay, what's the image we have, it's in 512 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 3: an image which is a complex. I'd say you have 513 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 3: an angle, which is artistry. We find, for instance, you 514 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: have this famous painting of David, which is the crowning 515 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: of the of Napoleon and Jeordiphoax. 516 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 5: Napoleon crowning himself, and so this is. 517 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: A painting that everyone knows that. For instance, it was 518 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 3: as the case a few decades ago. It's less the 519 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: case now. You had some persons really learning all the battles. 520 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 3: You know, it was a kind of part of the 521 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: how history was taught or learned. So it was going 522 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 3: from I don't know, Hotlits to Marango to also the 523 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: defeat the Mosque Va, the Russian campaign or traffic down. 524 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 3: But you had this I think it's a bit less 525 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 3: now the case that we learned of him, we learn 526 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 3: of him also about the results. So all this kind 527 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 3: of what we could master Grant. I don't know how 528 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 3: to translate that really granite mass. It's the kind of 529 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: big institution that he created and that survived afterwards. You know, 530 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century, I think we in France we 531 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 3: tried every kind of regime possible, from an empire to republic, 532 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 3: to kingdom to everything, and these kind of institutions survived. 533 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: You had the civil code, for instance, that he created 534 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: and that survived and it still exists. Now you have 535 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 3: this creation of the Federal Reserve, which is called band 536 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: de France. But you had the creation of the Lease, 537 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 3: which is a high school, which was very different at 538 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 3: that time. It was quite a bit military, but we 539 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: still survive. Now, we had the creation of the institution 540 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 3: of the prefet. You don't have prefe here, but it 541 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: would be a kind of of governor in a state 542 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: that would be appointed by the federal state and not 543 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 3: elected by his constituent, and that would represent that would 544 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 3: represent more the capital of the federal capital than the 545 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 3: So all these institutions still still exist. And we also 546 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 3: learn of course by the the part which are darker, 547 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 3: such as haiti or slavery. And because it's a very 548 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 3: important and I think that's where we are in France 549 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 3: to give the closest to reality to truce history that 550 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 3: we can do. 551 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, because Napoleon is he's a fascinating figure, 552 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 4: I think because of his many contradictions. Obviously, the Napoleonic 553 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 4: Code was so vital to upholding, you know, basic French rights. 554 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 4: And even though Napoleon initially upheld the revolutionary ban on slavery, 555 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 4: he did at a certain point undo that and and 556 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 4: reinstitute slavery in the in the French colonies. 557 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And so this is something that we don't 558 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: put under the run at all. This is something that 559 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 3: we uh that we learn are among everything, and so 560 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 3: it's always also interesting. So you have this reality and 561 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 3: then you have the willyas of how history is stalled 562 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 3: about him, because I was sing also at the beginning 563 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 3: that he was among the he was the first also 564 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,240 Speaker 3: to tell his own story, the memoirs, the own numoir 565 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: when he was on the Santa Anna island after the 566 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 3: after his fall, and then also so many historians on there. 567 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 3: It's one of the of the subjects in the French 568 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 3: history which is the richest, I mean in so many 569 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 3: people who went on there. And so you have some 570 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 3: who who like and who will try to keep on 571 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 3: in the wake of the strong man who and tried 572 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 3: to say, oh, France at that time was strong. And 573 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 3: you will have the others who will who will go 574 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 3: more on the institution that we that that he built. 575 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 3: And so you have in a way tell me what 576 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 3: the image of Nemylon, of Nepoleon you have, and I 577 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 3: will tell you who. 578 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,479 Speaker 4: You are that's brilliant, Thank you. I mean that, that's 579 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 4: what a perspective I think. Napoleon is absolutely something of 580 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 4: a cipher. It's something of a In English, we would 581 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 4: call it a Rorjack test, where you can look at 582 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 4: him and what you well, Pascal, thank you so much 583 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 4: for joining me. This was such a fascinating conversation, and 584 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 4: I'm so happy to get to talk about one of 585 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 4: my favorite historical figures, Napoleon with you. 586 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much. And at the Frenchiman, see, 587 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 3: we are always glad when in the US you are 588 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 3: interested in French history, and in this case in the 589 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 3: French history which is European, his world history also, but 590 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 3: also something very linked to American history at that. 591 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 4: Time, incredibly linked to American history. And please come back 592 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 4: at any time and talk more. 593 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm 594 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mank. Noble Blood is created and 595 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: hosted by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching 596 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: by Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and 597 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: Lori Goodman. The show is edited and produced by Noemi 598 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: Griffin and rima Il Kahali with supervising producer Josh Thain 599 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: and executive producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. 600 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 601 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.