1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Today 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: Unstuffed to Blow your Mind, we have another invention themed 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: episode for you. We're gonna be talking about something that 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: might initially seem frightfully dull or at least very commonplace, 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: and that is the odometer. I mentioned this to Rachel 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: earlier and she was like, oh, yes, the device that 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: measures odors. Yes or odo's. If you were to read 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: the word wrong, you might think it says autometer, um, 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: but it's yes, the odometer. So everyone other you probably 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: know this device best is the little counter in your vehicle, 13 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: the records how far you've driven. And I think we 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: tend to think of this invention mostly as a self 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: centered device. It tells us how far we've driven on 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: our trip, how many miles or kilometers we've racked up 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: on our vehicle. But you know, there's another way of 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: looking at the odometer, and this, certainly this is something 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: that plays into and into the history of the invention 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and also our attempts to understand its place in the 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: ancient world. Is that an odometer can also be a 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: method of determining distances on given routes. It's something that 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: turns a vehicle into a tool from measurement, right, So 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: it's it gives you information that would be useful to 25 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: other people, because I mean, in the ancient world, you 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: don't have Google Maps or anything. You might know that 27 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: there are two cities, and you might know that you 28 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: get from one of them to the other by following 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: the road to the west, but you might not know 30 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: how long it's going to take you to get from 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: one to the other. So it would be very useful 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: if you actually had some standard distance measurements that would 33 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: allow you to estimate the length of the journey and 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: to know how much you need to pack for the 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: journey and so forth. Yeah, we've talked before about the 36 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: some of the the important things that make up an 37 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: empire and make an empire or a kingdom function, and 38 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: there are things like standardized measurements, of course, and standardized currency. 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: But another thing that would be useful is indeed, like 40 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: you say, to know how long it takes to get 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: from one place to another, what is the distance from 42 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: one place to another, from border to border from port 43 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: to capital, from frontier to ford and sofa forth. And 44 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: this is the kind of thing that would of course 45 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: be important for warfare, but also for trade and just 46 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,839 Speaker 1: general management of a given territory. So on one hand, 47 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: you can imagine this situation, and you can and you 48 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: can think about what an odometer is, and knowing that 49 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: an odometer has uh some of its history in the 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: ancient world, you might think, well, this is the this 51 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: is the route we take to get to the invention. 52 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: This is the necessity, uh that is the mother of 53 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: this invention. But this doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, 54 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: as we'll discuss, as we look at at its history 55 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: both in the east and in the west. Now, I 56 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: think it's worth thinking at least just a little bit 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: about maps and cartography here, because it's easy for for 58 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: the mind to go there, like I need to know 59 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: the exact distance between X and Y because I want 60 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: an accurate map, right, Uh. To kind of go hand 61 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: in hand when we think about maps today, Like even 62 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: if I'm looking through a Dungeons and Dragons book, I 63 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: have a map of some sort of fantastic region, and 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: then I have a little indicator to tell me exactly 65 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: how how many miles and inches or something to that effect. Oh, 66 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: once you get into D and D, though, I feel 67 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: like it's often very loosey goosey about travel distances. Oh yeah, 68 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: and um and as a when I am dungeon mastering, 69 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: I I am also I hate it when there's like 70 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: a really specific question about distances, like, well, is it 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: is it one mile or two mile? It's like, I 72 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just it's however long it takes to 73 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: get there. But any well, my experiences, you want to 74 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: you want to take a queue from the d M 75 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: basically like, is this a journey where things will happen 76 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: on the journey or a journey where we will just 77 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: magically arrive at the destination? Yes, sometimes the magic is 78 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: in the journey, but sometimes it most definitely is not. 79 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: So thinking about this the situation about figuring out knowing 80 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: what the distances are between one place in the other, 81 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: and thinking about the role of maps in the ancient world. 82 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: I turned to one of my my favorite go to 83 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: text for a lot of this sort of thing, Brian 84 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: Fagan's The seventy Grade Inventions of the Ancient World, And 85 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: there's a there's several different chapters in there, the deal 86 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: with measures and maps. Uh and of Fagin and his 87 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: co authors point out, I think a few important things 88 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: about ancient maps that we might want to have in 89 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: our head as we proceed. So, first of all, they 90 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: point out, the Chinese maps of old were more about 91 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: landscape features. So the journey from X to Y is 92 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: more about the details of the landscape and the markers 93 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: that are passed on the way. Yeah, that makes sense, 94 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: navigating by landmarks. Yeah, and so the maps would reflect that. 95 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: Another thing they point out is that while local maps 96 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: in the ancient world we're one thing, as we're specialized maps, 97 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: broader maps of the world or region, we're not really 98 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: part of the overall ancient approach to maps. There were 99 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: no regular standards of map making, and there were no 100 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: general purpose maps. And uh, this is one quote from 101 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: the book I thought was rather telling quote between them rulers, generals, sailors, 102 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: and traders evidently all but ignored the practical assistance that 103 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: maps could afford them. That's surprising. Yeah, I mean hindsight 104 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: twenty but uh, yeah, it's interesting to look back and 105 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: think about what benefits this broader approach to maps general 106 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: purpose maps, etcetera. Could have afforded them, So I think 107 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: all that's worth keeping in mind as we proceed here. 108 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: None of this is to say peoples during these eras 109 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: were not concerned with precise distances, but the relationship with 110 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: exact maps wasn't quite the same as what we have 111 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: now now. Another way of thinking about what came before 112 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: is that there certainly were ways of measuring long distances 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: before the invention of the mechanical odometer. Though there is 114 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: some question about the relative accuracy of early mechanical methods 115 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: versus pre mechanical methods, and one case study here that 116 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: I think we should look at. It's very interesting puzzle 117 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: that emerges if you look at a geography chapter of 118 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: The Natural History by by our old friend Plenty of 119 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: the Elder. Here I'll be referring to the Bostock and 120 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: Riley translation for those not familiar. Plenty of the Elder 121 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: was a first century Roman military commander and author, and 122 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: the Natural History is an early attempt at creating a 123 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: sort of world encyclopedia. So Plenty covers everything from mining 124 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: and metallurgy to botany and zoology, cooking, politics. It's just 125 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: it's just a book of everything, and in book six 126 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: of the Natural History, Plenty sets out to describe, quote, 127 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: an account of countries, nations, sees to ounds, havens, mountains, rivers, distances, 128 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: and peoples who now exist or formerly existed. Very good 129 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: chapter heading there. One of the chapters within this volume, 130 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: chapter twenty one, is on the nations of India, as 131 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: known to Plenty at the time. Again, this is the 132 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: first century CE. So Plenty says that India is a 133 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: vast country with over a hundred kingdoms, dozens of rivers, 134 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: uncountable mountains, but he will undertake to describe some of 135 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: it by following the path of Alexander the Great, who 136 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: led a conquering army to India about four hundred years earlier. 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: So Plenty rights quote, however, that we may come to 138 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: a better understanding relative to the description of these regions. 139 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: We will follow the track of Alexander the Great. Diagonitis 140 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: and Biton, whose duty it was to ascertain the distances 141 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: and length of his expeditions, have written that from the 142 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: Caspian Gates to hecatom Pylon, the city of the Ptarthians, 143 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: the distance is the number of miles, which we have 144 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: already stated and he mentioned a number earlier, and then 145 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: he goes on and that from thence to Alexandria of 146 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: the ri I, which city was founded by the same king, 147 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: the distance is five hundred and seventy five miles, and 148 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: from thence to Prophesia, the city of the drag Ni, 149 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety nine miles. And from here he 150 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: just goes on and on, listing distances. It's this many 151 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: miles to the next city, and this many miles to 152 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: the next city. Uh. So he attributes all of these numbers, 153 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: all of these distances and miles that he comes up 154 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: with for this path leading into India to these two figures, 155 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: Diagnetis and Biton. Who were these guys well, they were 156 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: known as Bimatists, coming from the Greek word meaning step 157 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: or pace. I looked up Bimatists in the Oxford Handbook 158 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: of Classics, and the entry does identify them as the 159 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: the surveyors essentially of Alexander the Great Uh and names 160 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: a few other ones. In addition to the two already 161 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: mentioned Byton and Diagnetus. It also names uh Philonides of Crete, 162 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: who it says in a side note, was a celebrated 163 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: distance runner, and the entry also notes that the two 164 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: figures who worked for Alexander, Byton and Diagnetus, as well 165 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: as some others quote had literary aspirations. Their measurements of 166 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: key distances in the empire comprised an archive later controlled 167 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: by Seleucus. The first individual Bemetists published their observations in 168 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: monographs termed stath moy or Stages, which combined precise calculations 169 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: of distance with more exotic reports of the flora, fauna, 170 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: and customs of the empire. The latter tended to the outrageous, 171 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: but the measurements were of lasting value and provided Eratas 172 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: the Knees with the framework for his geography of Asia. 173 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Aretas the Nees, you might recall, was an really figure, 174 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: a Greek philosopher who with pretty startling accuracy, calculated the 175 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: actual size of the sphere of the Earth. And he 176 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: did that just using knowledge of the distances between locations 177 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: of different latitudes and then the use of the angles 178 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: of sundials. Basically, yeah, So, how did the Bematists actually 179 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: measure distances in the time of Alexander the Great? Well, 180 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: I've seen some disagreement on this, some sources imply that 181 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: they simply counted paces, so you'd walk and count how 182 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: many steps you took, while others suggest that they used 183 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: some kind of mechanical device. One of the weird things 184 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: is that, as far as we can tell, most of 185 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: the distances recorded by bematists such as Biton and Diagnetis, 186 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: as well as others from the ancient world, are surprisingly accurate. 187 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: On this point, I want to quote a book I 188 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: was looking at by a American historian named Donald W. Ingalls. 189 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: The book is called Alexander the Great and the Logistics 190 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: of the Macedonian Army from the University of California Press 191 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. And explaining a table in his 192 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: book of the bimatists different estimates of the distances between 193 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: cities on this route, ingles rights quote the overall accuracy 194 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: of the bimatists measurements should be apparent. The minor discrepancies 195 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: of distance parentheses only one point three percent from herat 196 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: to begrum, can be adequately explained by slight changes in 197 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: the tracks of roads during the last twenty three hundred years. 198 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: The accuracy of the measurements implies that the bimatists used 199 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: a sophisticated mechanical device for measuring distances, undoubtedly an odometer, 200 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: such as described by Heron of Alexandria. So there's a clue. 201 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: Uh Ingles here says, Look, the distance is given by 202 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: these these people who worked for Alexander the Great and 203 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: other immotists of the era. They're just too accurate. They're 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: too good to be the result of trying to count 205 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: your steps and estimate from that. They have to be 206 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: using some kind of machine that we don't know about, 207 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: and one good candidate is a machine like the one 208 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: described later by Heron of Alexandria. Now, this idea that 209 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: they may have simply been walking, on one hand, I 210 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: can't help but think of the Monty Python ministry of 211 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: silly walks and imagine like a specific, ridiculous but regular 212 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: date that they're using, and and if they were super 213 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: focused on their steps and counting their steps, maybe that 214 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: would explain why they're reports of flora and fauna are 215 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: so outrageous. They're like, well, I was it was. It 216 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: was three thousand, eight hundred and seventies six steps. And 217 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: to the left there may have been a dragon. I'm 218 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: not sure. I was just really focused on these steps 219 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: and getting the step count right. I mean, descriptions of 220 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: local flora, fauna, and people's of the world are notably 221 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: hilarious throughout all kinds of ancient texts, including Plenty himself. 222 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: He loves to talk about people who had like eyes 223 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: in their stomachs and stuff. Yeah. I keep hoping one 224 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: day I'll come across a passage in Plenty where he 225 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: mentions people who have crab clause. I haven't found that yet. Oh, 226 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: I have to have to look into that, I mean, 227 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: because you mentioned it's it's of course not just Plenty 228 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: in his writings and travelers that he's sourcing, and we 229 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: we've discussed similar things in Chinese traditions as well, So 230 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: there have to be some crab claude individuals out there somewhere. 231 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: But okay, sorry to Hero or Heron of Alexandria. Multiple 232 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: sources I found point to a device described by this 233 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: first century mathematician and inventor, sometimes known as Hero, sometimes 234 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: known as Iron, but he was from Alexandria, Alexandria, Egypt. 235 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: As you can tell by the name. A lot of 236 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: inventions are attributed to Hero, though some of the most 237 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: famous ones probably predated him, and he just described them 238 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: in lectures and writings, and then later that gets sort 239 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: of mistaken for him having actually invented the thing in 240 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: the first place. In the latter category. One example, in fact, 241 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: one of the most famous devices associated with Hero is 242 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: the Yala pile, which is a type of early steam 243 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: engine converting the power of steam into rotational energy. Basically 244 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: it works, but you've got a big cauldron this full 245 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: of water, and then you put a fire underneath it, 246 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: and then that cauldron is connected by pipes to a 247 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: sphere that can rotate around the pipes, and then the 248 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: sphere has two little exhaust nozzles that allow steam to 249 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: escape as the water boils and turns into steam and expands. 250 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: But the way the nozzles are oriented, they're oriented in 251 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: the same rotational direction, so as the as it gets 252 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: hotter and hotter and the cauldron and the steam pressure 253 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: builds up, it spins the sphere faster and faster. Yeah, 254 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: there are a lot of images of this, as I recall, 255 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: I remember seeing a cool woodcut of this, I think 256 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: at one point um but it has a look of 257 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: of a novelty of a device that's that's illustrating the 258 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: principle here, but but of course not putting it to 259 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: the sort of work that later UH steam engines would. 260 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: For sure. Yes, and though the e Allo pile is 261 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: often associated with UH, with Hero, I think this is 262 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: something that he very likely did not actually invent. It 263 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: was just something he described that already existed. UM. But 264 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: we have talked about other machines possibly invented by Hero 265 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: in previous episodes. One that I remember is the Hero 266 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: of alexandrias In is credited with inventing the first vending machine, 267 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: which strangely was also a piece of religious technology. It 268 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: was a machine designed to dole out limited portions of 269 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: sacred water within Egyptian temples when a devotee would insert 270 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: the right amount of coinage. So I think you'd put 271 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: a five drachma or five drama piece in through a 272 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: coin slot, and then that would operate a weighted lever 273 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: that would dispense a certain amount of holy water, and 274 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: then once a certain amount of water had gone out, 275 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: the machine would tip over and then it would close 276 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: the valve and stop dispensing. Though even in this case, 277 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: I read that it's actually possible Hero was simply describing 278 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: a device that had already been invented by two Cbs 279 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: of Alexandria in the third century BC. So, as with 280 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: a lot of ancient inventions, it's often hard to tell 281 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: if somebody actually invented something or if they're just talking 282 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: about something that already existed. Anyway, I found multiple references 283 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: to Hero either inventing or describing an odometer, as evidenced 284 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: by a passage he wrote in a minor work called 285 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: the Dioptera, which I wanted to find the full text for, 286 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: but if it has been translated into English, I was 287 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: unable to find it, so I don't know if that 288 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: even exists in English. But regarding this, this machine he 289 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: describes in the diopter again, the Hero is first century CE. 290 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: A couple of caveats. One is that he Hero was 291 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: definitely not the first known author to describe an odometer 292 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: in Greek. In the Greek and Latin Corpus, the Roman 293 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: engineer Vitruvius, who lived in the first century BC, so 294 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: century before Hero, also describes an odometer, uh, though in 295 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: a slightly different way. I'll get into the differences in 296 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: a minute. But even Vitruvius does not claim to have 297 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: invented the device out of whole cloth. And then there's 298 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: a second caveat which is that remember again Ingles making 299 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: the comment that Alexander the Great's bimatists must have had 300 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: a device like Heroes. The problem here is that hero 301 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: of Alexandria and Vitruvius both lived along after the conquest 302 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: of Alexander the Great. So if it's true as Ingles 303 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: suggests that these bimatists used a mechanical odometer similar to 304 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: the one described by these engineers and authors, they would 305 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: have been using some kind of earlier device similar to 306 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: Heroes or Vitruvious. Is not something that hero or Vitruvious 307 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: and vented. Now. An interesting source I found on on 308 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: these two device descriptions is a book called Technical Exprassis 309 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: in Greek and Roman Science and Literature, The Written Machine 310 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: between Alexandria and Rome. This is by an author named 311 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: Courtney Roby from Cambridge University Press. Courtney Roby is a 312 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: professor of classics at Cornell and in this book, this 313 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: is in the context of explaining patterns of composition in 314 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: Greek and Roman technical books, how in different times and 315 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: cultures there were different standards and uses for technical explanation 316 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: of machinery. Hero and Vitruvius both wrote books describing odometers. 317 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: I mentioned Heroes, but the the earlier mentioned by Vitruvius 318 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: comes in a book called on Architecture, and according to Roby, 319 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: Vitruvius himself acknowledges that the odometer is quote part of 320 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: a technological tradition handed down from predecessors. Some authors have 321 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: suggested that might mean from Archimedes, but I'm not aware 322 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: of what what evidence there would be for this, so 323 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how strong that suggestion is. Maybe it's 324 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: just kind of like, oh, Archimedes, he invented stuff, and 325 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's him. Yeah, I think some sometimes we see 326 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: in different traditions we have these these noted inventors, noted minds, 327 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: and they kind of become mythic magnets for various ideas 328 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: and inventions. But there might be some good reasons for 329 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: think of our comedies. I just don't know if there is. 330 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: I did not turn it up than the basic principle, 331 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: how does this odometer work? So you've got a chariot wheel. 332 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: Odometer typically has a wheel of some kind that is 333 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: rolling on the ground and that's your your basic point 334 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: of contact with the Earth to get the the baseline 335 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 1: measurement of distance. So you've got a chariot wheel of 336 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: a fixed size two Roman feet in radius, which Vitruvius 337 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: says h gives the wheel a circumference of approximately twelve 338 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: point five Roman feet. So if the radius is two, 339 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: that's four times pie, which is about twelve point five six. 340 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: So when Vitrivius has twelve point five Roman feet, he's 341 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of approximating in his explanation. But anyway, each time 342 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: the chariot wheel makes a full revolution, it will advance 343 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: a cog wheel by one cog position, you know, one 344 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: tooth advances and the cog has the cog wheel has 345 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: a fixed number of teeth, meaning that it will make 346 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: a full revolution once the wheel has traveled one Roman mile. 347 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: Every time this cog wheel makes a full revolution, it 348 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: will advance a gear that pushes a single small object 349 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: like a pebble or a bead into a receptacle. And 350 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: then at the end of the journey, you simply have 351 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: a human count up the beans, you know, count up 352 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: whatever the little pebbles or beads or beans are to 353 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: know how many miles you've gone. And I want to 354 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: make a note that this seemed interesting to me, that 355 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: this is the principle of using a system of gears 356 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: as a type of analog computer, similar to the use 357 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: of gears in the ancient astronomical computer known as the 358 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: Antikithera mechanism. We discussed this in an episode we did 359 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: sometime in the past couple of years. It might have 360 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: been in the Creature of the Gear episode about biological gears. 361 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: But the idea that we often think of a gear 362 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: is something that creates mechanical advantage, and it certainly does 363 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: do that, but a gear can also manage ratios between numbers, 364 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: like a gear can do math for you, and that's 365 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: what it's doing in the case of this odometer. Yeah, 366 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: I love these these examples of them from the ancient 367 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: birth of the odometer or possible birth of the odometer, 368 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: and some of these these instances, because it seems it's's 369 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: kind of like we have the wheel turning on the road, 370 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: and then it's a question of could we put that 371 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: wheel to use, Like the wheel is already in a 372 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: sense marking the distance in its revolution, and and in 373 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: that it's kind of like the heavens. It's like the sun. 374 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: It's like the moon, it's like the the cyclical movements 375 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: all around us that mark the passage of time. Yeah, 376 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: you just need to correlate something with like a fixed 377 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: number of teeth that you can count to those pre 378 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: existing revolutions, and then you take those teeth to do 379 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: some kind of work that will help you keep the count, 380 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 1: like dropping a bean in a bucket, or advancing a 381 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: dial to on a fixed face that has a number 382 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: printed on it. Yeah, and it and it. You can 383 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: imagine that into the in the ancent minds like you 384 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: would have realized if we could harness this, like this 385 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: is better than than than counting your steps. There's a 386 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: regularity to this that would be harder to achieve through 387 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: other means. Totally so so. Vitruvius describes a machine roughly 388 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: like that. Hero later describes a similar machine, but there 389 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: are some interesting differences in how the two authors present 390 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: their explication. For example, Vitruvius describes his dodometer with fixed dimensions. 391 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: The wheel is four Roman feet in diameter, the circumference 392 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 1: is approximately twelve point five feet, and so forth. And 393 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: here I want to read a passage from Roby quote. 394 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: Rather than providing a mathematical formula whereby the odometer could 395 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: be adapted to any desirable or available wheel size, as 396 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: Hero does for his own description of an odometer, Vitruvious 397 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: avoids formulas and geometrical language by specifying the wheel diameter 398 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: and circumference as fixed numbers. That is to say, the 399 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: version of the odometer he gives his reader is presented 400 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: as the exact device transmitted from his quote predecessors, not 401 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: a jumping off point for experimentation with the type of device. 402 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: And she goes on to explain this as typical of 403 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: the difference between Latin language technical literature from this period 404 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: and Hellenistic technical literature. Works in Latin tended to be 405 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: exact descriptions of existing devices rather than demonstrations of principles 406 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: and scalable instructions for building new machines. Uh the ladder 407 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: the you know, the scalable instructions and explication of principles 408 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: is more like what Hero of Alexandria presents. Instead of 409 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: having fixed dimensions, his explanation is about how to apply 410 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: the idea of an odometer to different scales and uses. 411 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: With the numerical figures being ratios rather than measurements. So 412 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: Hero's goal was to represent these relationships between the different 413 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: sizes of the wheels and the connected gears, and then 414 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: to read one final passage from Robi quote. Heroes description 415 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: allows mechanical flexibility as well. He suggests how to extend 416 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: the number of cogs in the odometer, which can radically 417 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: enhance its measuring capacity. On the other hand, he notes 418 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: that it is pointless to make an odometer that measures 419 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: a greater distance than its vehicle could cover in a 420 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: single day, as it is easiest to just start the 421 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: count over each warning, which I lay. That's very practical, 422 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: but it also it flags an interesting difference here. They're 423 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: just different assumptions about the reader uh the text. In 424 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: a more Hellenistic tradition, or as as Hero does, it 425 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: might be geared more toward a select audience of highly 426 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: educated polymaths who would be expected to take the engineering 427 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: principle and then vary it to their needs, whereas the 428 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: Latin Roman tradition is describing an exact device in a 429 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: more accessible way that's easy to replicate but offers less 430 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: deep understanding and flexibility. But I wanted to come back 431 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: to a kind of a lingering question about Alexander's bematists, 432 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: whether they used a mechanical odometer or not. And the 433 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: question is which is actually more accurate. You might assume 434 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: a mechanical odometer is more accurate, but I've read some 435 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: arguments that actually human pacers would be less prone to 436 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: error over a long distance than a primitive mechanical device 437 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: would be. Now, obviously the best possible scenario would be 438 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: like to have the odometer on a modern car. You know, 439 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: something that is highly accurate, very well calibrated, a highly 440 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: accurate modern device, uh, that that's going to give you 441 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: the best reading. But obviously something built in the fourth 442 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: century b c. Would have significant enough inaccuracy and its 443 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: measurements that this would cause problems over great distances. And 444 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: so the idea is that any inaccurate measurement in a 445 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: mechanical device would just build up and up over many, 446 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: many miles on a great journey, Like if the circumference 447 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: of your wheel is slightly too long over thousands of miles, 448 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: it will start to significantly underestimate the distance traveled. Meanwhile, 449 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: I think the idea at least is that human biobmtists 450 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: literally counting their steps will also have inaccuracy, maybe inaccuracy 451 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: relative to some reference length of a single pace, but 452 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: that inaccuracy will go both ways. Steps that are too 453 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: long and then steps that are too short, and those 454 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: will average out over time. That's the argument at least, 455 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: and I see the logic here, and I admit that 456 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not a genius at statistics, so I could 457 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: be wrong. But my reaction is that I think this 458 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: could also be mistaken because it would tend to assume 459 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: that the human pacers inaccuracy will not be consistently biased 460 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: either above or below whatever the reference past length being 461 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: used is. Uh So, I think this logic might work 462 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: if you had like a group of a thousand people walking, 463 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: and then you had all of them count their steps, 464 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: and then you averaged all of those together. But if 465 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: it was just a single person, I would tend to 466 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: think that their personal count might be biased more in 467 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: one direction or another. They would just tend to have 468 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: longer than average or shorter than average steps, and that 469 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: even a pretty primitive machine would be better. But I 470 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: don't know. That's fascinating, Yeah, I don't. I don't know 471 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: what to make it because yeah, I can. I can 472 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 1: see what they're getting at with the idea that some 473 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: sort of a basic mechanical flaw in an ancient odometer 474 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: device that you would just consistently get the wrong number, 475 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: and then that would build up over time, and then yeah, 476 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: when when it comes to the actual steps and the 477 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: counting of those steps by an individual or individuals, you'd have, 478 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, a little, a little in one direction, a 479 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: little another direction, but it would sort of even out. Yeah, 480 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: that's that's fascinating to think about. I mean, I think 481 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: it would be more likely to even out if you 482 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: were talking about a group of people, like a large 483 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: group of people all average together. Yeah, I don't know 484 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: if that'd be the case for a single person anyway, 485 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: whether or not they were using mechanical odometers, ancient dematists 486 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: did a not at all bad job of measuring different 487 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: distances between milestones between cities, and it's possible they were 488 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: helped in this task by devices like the ones described 489 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: by Vitruvious and Hero. But ultimately, I think we don't 490 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: know for sure if they use these devices or not, 491 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: and if they did, we don't know for sure who 492 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: invented these ancient odometers. It's it's one of those questions. 493 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: You know, there are many inventions where we just don't 494 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: know where they came from. I wonder too if it 495 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: might have been a situation where they use both where 496 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: where their specialist in their field. So perhaps, like specialists 497 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: in other fields, they're using more than one method and 498 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: then comparing the numbers and figuring out some sort of 499 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: more accurate measurement based on the two. Yeah, that could be. 500 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyway, it's really impressive that in 501 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: the what it's like the third or fourth century b c. 502 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: We've got people getting like really accurate estimates of of 503 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: travel distances that are on the order of hundreds of miles. Yeah, 504 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Now, all of this is going on in 505 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: the Greco Roman world, but as we've partially alluded to already, 506 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: there's there's also a history of the odometer in Chinese 507 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: civilization as well. In particular, the device in question is 508 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: the Lee recording drum carriage. Now, this is sometimes attributed 509 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: as an invention of Zongheng, who lived at seventy eight 510 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: through one c E. This is a Chinese polymath and 511 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: court astronomer in the Eastern Han dynasty. Uh. This is 512 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: an individual we've talked about before because there are a 513 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: number of different inventions that are attributed to him, one 514 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: of which was an early form of earthquake detection device. Uh. 515 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: He had an important role tending calendars and celestial events, 516 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: aiding the Emperor Um, who of course ruled at the 517 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: mandate of Heaven, so, you know, maintaining the balance between 518 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: cosmos and civil life. And this is a period of 519 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: time that sometimes referred to as the Golden Age of 520 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: Chinese history, for centuries of economic prosperity, that's all the 521 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: traffic of goods and ideas across the Silk Road. He 522 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: was an inventor, a poe it in an Early Scientist. 523 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: We have an older invention episode about the earthquake detection device. 524 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: And I was looking back at some of our notes 525 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: and I'm reminded that that you shared some of his 526 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: poetry in that episode. Oh I don't remember that now. 527 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: Was it good poetry? Oh? Yeah, yeah, that's good stuff. Um. 528 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: So he's credited with a number of inventions, innovations, and achievements. 529 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: He wrote a treatise on the Mystical Laws of the Cosmos, 530 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: which included the theory that the moon did not emit light, 531 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: but reflected the light of the sun. And he's also 532 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: sometimes attributed as the inventor of the Lee recording drum carriage, 533 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: which again is this um uh, this this odometer of 534 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: sorts in Chinese history. Now it is worth noting that 535 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: that kind of like the situation with Hero and Archimedes, 536 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: we have a very famous historical inventor here, and he's 537 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: attributed with a number of inventions. And so I guess 538 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: the question always lingers, is this an invention that this 539 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: individual invented? Is it something that they described it something? 540 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: Is it's something that just ends up being attributed to 541 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: them because the technology was known during that time, or 542 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: it's based on surviving records, etcetera. Yeah, exactly. So I 543 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: ended up looking at some of the writings of Joseph 544 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: need Him on this. So Needham lived. He was a 545 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: British biochemist, historian of science and sinologists who wrote rather 546 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: extensively on the history of science and technology in China. 547 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: His second wife, lu gives him was a Chinese historian 548 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: and biochemist, and she was an important co researcher and 549 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: co author in his work. So we're talking multiple volumes 550 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: that he wrote during his lifetime, very very much his 551 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: life work. So before we get to the carriage itself, 552 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: I thought we might stop to just consider Rhodes in 553 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: ancient China. So Needham writes about Rhodes in general in 554 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: the short Science and Civilization in China, and he points 555 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: out that they were quite comparable to the famous roads 556 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: of the Romans. Both empires had extensive road systems that 557 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: served as a means of logistically connecting their vast land 558 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: holdings for travel and trade as well as you know, 559 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: playing an important part is just in just communication through 560 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: the empire. That's always something to keep in mind, uh, 561 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: that the road is also a lane for communication. Now, 562 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: both systems, the Roman and the Chinese, fell into long 563 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: periods of decay after the third century see he points out, 564 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: though he writes that while the collapse of Roman roads 565 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: had more of a fracturing effect in China, natural and 566 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: artificial waterways and some surviving mountain road systems enabled these 567 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: far reaching routes of communication to remain open. He also 568 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: points out something very interesting about these two independent systems, 569 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: that it's this rather on inspiring and I thought really 570 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: nicely written. And it also kind of ties into some 571 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: of the stuff we talked about in our previous episode 572 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: about the Roman military that the Dethrone Emperor series quote. 573 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: Should the Romans have ever succeeded in conquering the Parthians 574 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: and the Persians, the two road systems might have met, 575 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: perhaps somewhere west of shin Jiang, but this was not 576 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: to be. The octopus like arms expanded independently, each in 577 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: a world of its own, their builders, troubled only occasionally 578 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: by the vaguest rumors of another system too far away 579 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: to matter. It's in John, by the way, is in 580 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: northwest China. That's where he's talking about here. So, yeah, 581 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: this is such a I love this quote because it's 582 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: just a imagining these two independent road systems, like like 583 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: like octopuses, Uh, each doing their own thing. And if 584 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: you know, world history had gone a different way, there 585 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: could have been a situation where they met. Uh. It's 586 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: it's crazy to think about, like like roads, I've often 587 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: thought about. You know, you encounter a road and where 588 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: does that road end? You know that basically goes It's 589 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: not infinite, but uh, you can it stretches on for 590 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: such a great distance. And to imagine these two vast 591 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: systems um almost but not quite coming together. Yeah, it's 592 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: kind of like I don't know if if you've ever 593 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: played around with this to to see like how far 594 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: one can drive on a given continent or on connected continents, 595 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: Like at what point do things seem to break down 596 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: and you would have to find some other route to 597 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: connect with another road? And I know when you get 598 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: into Eurasia and Africa, like there are some pretty long 599 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: travels by road that are that are possible today. The 600 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,479 Speaker 1: road is not going to be necessarily to be great 601 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 1: the whole way, but you can do quite a lot 602 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: thank so. Anyway, Needham points out that with the odometer 603 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: or the way measure, it's it's a pretty simple proposition 604 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: from a mechanical standpoint. If you have the wheel already, 605 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: and you have row, and you have if you have roads, 606 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: you have wheels, then all it is is quote a 607 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: system of toothed wheels constituting a reduction gear train so 608 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: that one or more pins revolved slowly, releasing catches at 609 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: predetermined intervals, and in the case of this invention, striking 610 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: drums or gongs, so the lee recording drum carriage. What 611 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: is Alie Alie is the traditional Chinese measure of distance today, 612 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: standardized at five meters or one thousand sixty feet, but 613 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: as with a mile and Western traditions, historically there's some 614 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: drift over exactly how far it is supposed to be. 615 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: But it's standardized today and would have been standardized under 616 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: different rules and different dynasties. Yes, standardization of measures does 617 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: seem like such an important part of this too, because 618 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: I when I kept thinking about the idea of of 619 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: a bimitist potentially trying to measure distance with paces, I'm like, 620 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: what is So You've got to have something that's like 621 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: a reference pace, right, If you say something is x 622 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,479 Speaker 1: number of paces long, you've got to either know how 623 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: much your pace typically relates to a standard measure like 624 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: a mile, or you've got to be using your paces 625 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: as some kind of literal standard measure, like people would 626 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: know what that number meant. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. The 627 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: the history of of measurements alone would be something interesting 628 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: to come back to, because, of course you get into 629 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: use of various parts of the human body uh to 630 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: to form your base measurements, UH, the creation of tools 631 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: and UH and certainly when you're getting into weights for 632 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: goods and trade, like some of our oldest data and 633 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: oldest examples are all related to that. But then when 634 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: you start thinking about these larger measurements, like the measurement 635 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: between you know, the fourth in the frontier, that sort 636 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,800 Speaker 1: of thing, like you like, you can't just count, You 637 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: can't just have someone go out there with essentially a 638 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: ruler and say all right, start measuring it off, like 639 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: you've gotta have some other system. Yeah, yeah, alright, So 640 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: Needa gets more into into the subject of the lea 641 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: the Lee measuring art here in Science and Civilization in China, 642 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 1: Volume for Physics and Physical Technology, Part two, Mechanical Engineering, Um, 643 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, it gets into the nature and origins of 644 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: the Lee recording drum carriage. He cites several sources and 645 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: post in some of these resources that go into more detail. 646 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: Others just kind of mentioned it in passing and points 647 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: out that that many of the mentions of the carriage, yeah, 648 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: they don't actually describe the mechanism employed. In at least 649 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: one case, it shows up as a math problem. It's 650 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: it's something along the lines of if the Lee recording 651 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: drum carriage were to travel between this city and this city, 652 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: how many times would the gong u sound that sort 653 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: of thing. The concept seems to date back to the 654 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: Hun dynasty, and this is where the attribution to zong 655 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: Hang seems to come into play. But when the carriage 656 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: is described, it's generally described as a carriage drawn by 657 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: four horses, and it works based on multiple cogged wheels, 658 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: some vertical and some horizontal, you know, all of course, 659 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: much like the earlier example in the Greco Roman traditions 660 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: we were discussing, you know, it's tied to the movement 661 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: of the wheels. In the simpler version of this um 662 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: of this carriage, it's said that there is a wooden 663 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: man in the carriage who is mechanically made to strike 664 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: a drum with the passage of each lee. So the 665 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: wheels are turning, the cogs are turning, there's a mechanical 666 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: wooden man inside who like like a music box, he 667 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: is going to mechanically strike a drum in this case, 668 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: every time one lee has passed. Beat that vitruvious. You 669 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: did not have a wooden man, did you. Later, a 670 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: more complex version is described as being two stories in heights, 671 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: So so it's a carriage that has two stories and 672 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: each story has its own wooden figure. The lower figure 673 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 1: strikes a drum every lee, while the higher figure rings 674 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: a bell every ten le Okay, So one difference that 675 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: occurs to me here is this would still if it's 676 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: keeping track of the distance in an accurate way, but 677 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: doing so by making a sound instead of by say, 678 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: accumulating uh, pebbles or beads in a container. It's something 679 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: that you would to some extent need to continuously keep 680 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: track of as you're traveling, Like it would still require 681 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: effortful engagement of the memory by somebody doing the traveling, right, 682 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: That's right. That's based on my reading here of need him. 683 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: I don't think there's any indication that it was spitting 684 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: out like you know, balls or or or or pebbles 685 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: that could then be counted later, or there was anyway 686 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: recording how many leaves it passed. It was just a 687 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, a ringing of a bell or the striking 688 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 1: of a drum based on the intervals traveled, which would 689 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: still be useful, but would require more work than or 690 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: at least work spread out over a longer period of time, 691 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: rather than say like a single counting activity in between 692 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: travel segments. And in this we get into one of 693 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 1: the big questions about the Lee recording drum carriage, and 694 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: that is was this a device that was at all 695 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: originally intended to measure distances? Or was it you? Or 696 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,839 Speaker 1: was it more about music? Was it more about novelty? 697 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: Was it was it? Why was the technology employed? So 698 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: again this was this? These writings are typically revolving around 699 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: the Han period or perhaps a little earlier, but the 700 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: Lee measuring drum carriage was not known as such until later, 701 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: and need Him discusses that this might mean that the 702 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: invention was in fact more expressly for musical performance rather 703 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,879 Speaker 1: than the measurement of distances. Again, at least during this 704 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: time period. It may have may have changed later when 705 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: someone realized, oh yeah, we can just count how many 706 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: strikes of the drum, we can count how many rings 707 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: of the bell, and then that's data that could prove useful. 708 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: But he stresses that you know, these are still interconnected, 709 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: interconnected possibilities, um. And if you're if you're asking, well, 710 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: why would they do that, like why build a carriage 711 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: like this? And why does it remain something other than 712 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: just like a one time novelty, Like why is it 713 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: written about so much? And he points out that music, 714 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: of course, is often part of a procession, and he 715 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 1: stresses that quote carriages for musicians, whether mechanized or not, 716 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: survived in imperial processions through many subsequent dynasties. So the 717 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: idea here is that the mechanical version uh here develops 718 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: from non mechanical carriages with human musicians inside them. Imperial 719 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: fleets of vehicles, as he refers to them, would have 720 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: likely included palace officials and so forth, but also entertainers musicians. 721 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: So as everyone's traveling down the road, there's music, and 722 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: at some point someone says, hey, what we could We 723 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: could build some gears. We could make a mechanical musical 724 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: man inside one of the carriages, putting those flesh musicians 725 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: out of the job. Well, I don't know if they've 726 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: become cletely out of the job, because you know that 727 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: these these mechanical musicians can only do so much here. 728 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: But but yeah, for for a modern comparison, we might 729 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: think of of a parade float as a as a 730 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: counterpart is something like this. It does sound a lot 731 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: like a parade float. It would have been, according to 732 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: one account, painted red and decorated with flowers, and birds it. 733 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: It's described as being escorted by eighteen men. Uh, and 734 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: there would have been a phoenix headed carriage pole on it. 735 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: So this was not clearly not something that was like 736 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: a Google Maps vehicle that was out there just to 737 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: perform a task. It Also it said that it looked marvelous. 738 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: It's a joyous vehicle. And once more, Needham stresses that 739 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure if it was ever used 740 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: by cartographers. Uh. It's possible that that later on photographers 741 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: may make use of the data that could be provided 742 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: by this, but we're not sure. Interesting, so Needham points 743 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 1: out that heroes description of the podometer did not claim 744 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: it as a new invention. He mentions the truvious and 745 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: then mentions that after hero Vitruvius, the odometer appears in 746 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,399 Speaker 1: Western Europe during the fifteenth century, so it's it's kind 747 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: of not really on the Western European radar for a 748 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: long period of time, or doesn't seem to be based 749 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: on surviving histories, and then it re emerges. Quote. The 750 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: pattern is therefore the same as that which we have 751 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: repeatedly met with i e. Greek antecedents paralleled or followed 752 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: by followed at short distance by Chinese developments which continue 753 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: throughout the medieval period, and then a reawakening of the 754 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: subject in Europe. So in this he's touching on something 755 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: that was kind of a career spanning question for him. 756 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 1: Is often referred to as the need Him question, and 757 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: that the question is basically why didn't China beat Europe 758 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: to the scientific revolution. He's been a fair amount of 759 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: his work thinking over this and looking to answers and 760 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: Chinese social institutions and more. Uh though, as as of reading, 761 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,399 Speaker 1: the psychologist Nathan Siven, who would have been I think 762 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: at times of liberator with Needham, pointed out that, you know, 763 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: the whole thing is basically a why did an X happen? 764 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: In history question, which by some estimates is less than 765 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,919 Speaker 1: a fruitful enterprise. You know, you get into all sorts 766 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,919 Speaker 1: of complex butterfly wing flapping concerns when you start asking 767 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: questions like that. They can be kind of nifty head scratchers, 768 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: but perhaps they are not the best exercise for an historian. 769 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: But at any rate, the Needham question, you see it 770 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: mentioned a lot in discussions of of the history of 771 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: Chinese science. Now, I do want to note in reading 772 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 1: about all this I also read as some material for 773 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,719 Speaker 1: needum about another interesting wheeled vehicle in Chinese history, and 774 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: that is the south pointing chariot. But that's one we're 775 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: gonna have to come back to. But yeah, the idea 776 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: of a chariot with another mechanical man on it, but 777 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: this mechanical man always points south omous. Okay. So we're 778 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 1: not gonna We're not gonna go through the exhaustive history 779 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: of the of the odometer in in recent centuries, but 780 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: I thought it might be useful to point out a 781 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: few different later innovations that kind of bring us up 782 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 1: to the modern odometer. Um, there's Pascal's calculator. This would 783 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:18,799 Speaker 1: have been an invention or an innovation by Blaze Pascal. Uh. 784 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: This was five not an adometer per se, But it 785 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: was a computation mechanism that entailed rotating toothed gears, and 786 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: much like a modern odometer, one complete cycle of one 787 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: gear caused the movement of the next gear. Okay, So 788 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: this would have been taking the same principle by which 789 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: the ancient odometer worked, but applying it to general calculation 790 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: rather than just the movement of a vehicle wheel. Right now, 791 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: in the late sixteen early seventeen hundreds, we also see 792 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: Thomas Savory's nautical odometer. Uh. Savories most famous invention was 793 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: the steam engine, but he also devised a nautical adometer. 794 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: I actually couldn't find out much about this, so I 795 00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:59,440 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm gonna have to come back to this 796 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: one in a few sure, but because I was curious 797 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: on how exactly it would have functioned. Interesting. Yeah, supposedly 798 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: there was a patent, so it seems like I should 799 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: be able to find that patent somewhere. So I don't know, 800 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,399 Speaker 1: I have to come back to that one. But this 801 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,320 Speaker 1: is a fun part because our old friend Ben Franklin 802 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: also enters the fray here when it comes to the odometer. 803 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: He's come up in more than one invention conversation, I believe. 804 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,359 Speaker 1: So what what was his take? So? In seventy five 805 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: he was serving as Postmaster General for the British. Previously 806 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: he had been postmaster of Philadelphia, and he wanted more 807 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: data on the shortest routes for mail delivery. So he 808 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: basically devised a simple odometer to attach to his own carriage. 809 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: And UH, and this will for this reason you'll sometimes 810 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: see especially some online sources saying Ben Franklin invented the odometer. No, 811 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: it's not accurate in the least to say Ben Franklin 812 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,760 Speaker 1: invented the odometer. You could say he invented on odometer. 813 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: He certainly would one up on the fly here. It 814 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,919 Speaker 1: seems so every four revolutions it would register a mile 815 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: and the results were apparently pretty accurate based on what 816 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: I was reading here. So at any rate, he was 817 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: able to to to use the data, uh, to figure 818 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 1: out which route was best for male delivery. Now, one 819 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: thing I know I saw reference to on the internet 820 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to make of this was 821 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: the idea of a Mormon odometer. Yeah, this was one that, Yeah, 822 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: that came up for me as well. The rhodometer from 823 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 1: Clayton and Pratt. Uh. This would have been eighteen forty seven. 824 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: They were pioneers of the Church of Jesus Christ of 825 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: Latter day Saints and they apparently crafted a simple odometer 826 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:44,280 Speaker 1: to measure how far a wagon train had traveled. Um. 827 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: So that's it's interesting again. It's we're getting into this 828 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: area where it sounds like people would find themselves in 829 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: situations where they could really use an odometer, and since 830 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: the knowledge was was known, you could create one. You 831 00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: couldn't go to the store and buy one, but the 832 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 1: principles route there. The principles were part of of of 833 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,399 Speaker 1: of the technological canon, so you could draw on that 834 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: and make yourself a functional odometer. In e Curtis age 835 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,879 Speaker 1: Vter came up with a bicycle mounted odometer, the cyclometer, 836 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: and then in three we have the Warner autometer, which 837 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,400 Speaker 1: I think, like the advertised versions of this, this was 838 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,440 Speaker 1: like an actual product. It was a combined odometer, spedometer, 839 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: and clock, but it made use of magnetism as opposed 840 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,480 Speaker 1: to just pure gear work. Uh So, like those are 841 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,360 Speaker 1: some of the big more big innovations in the odometer 842 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,479 Speaker 1: in recent centuries. And uh yeah, today the odometer again 843 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: is something we tend to just take for granted or 844 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: we don't even read it. It just sort of clicks 845 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: by there and maybe we check in on it every 846 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,799 Speaker 1: you know. However, many thousands of miles, I guess at 847 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: vary some people were probably more more into keeping a 848 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: close eye in their odometer, or you have to for 849 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,319 Speaker 1: work obviously. I think about seeing those surveyors who have 850 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: the wheel they use the surveyors the surveyor's wheel. Of course, 851 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,320 Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. That that's an obvious um 852 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: innovation to compare to some of these discussions of the odometer, 853 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: like harnessing the power of the wheel from measurement. All right, well, 854 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna go and close it out here, but we'd 855 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there. Perhaps you have 856 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,600 Speaker 1: particular thoughts about the odometer. It's ancient history, it's recent history, 857 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: or or you know, our modern use of the technology 858 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,399 Speaker 1: right in we would love to hear from you. As 859 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,560 Speaker 1: a reminder, our core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your 860 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: Mind publish on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the Stuff to 861 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind podcast feed on Monday's we do listener mail, 862 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: on Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or monster fact, 863 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: and on Friday's we do Weird How Cinema. That's our 864 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,879 Speaker 1: time to set aside most serious concerns and just talk 865 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: about the strange film huge thanks to our excellent audio 866 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 867 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 868 00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or 869 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 870 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com. Stuff to 871 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I heart Radio. For 872 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the i 873 00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to 874 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,