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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: The reality is the fact that you were raised into

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Speaker 2: that you were born into that community, into that neighborhood

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Speaker 2: where this is what you have to contend.

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Speaker 3: But that's on purpose. It's not the system coming in like, WHOA,

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Speaker 3: how do I deal with this? This is a problem.

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Speaker 2: The system is like, ah, look at that, round them up,

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Speaker 2: and it's on purpose.

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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Laverne Cox. It's a really interesting time in

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Speaker 1: the world right in this post twenty twenty era, where

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Speaker 1: there was, you know, some of the largest political protests

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Speaker 1: against police brutality that we've seen in our nation's history,

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Speaker 1: and some reforms came out of that, not a lot,

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Speaker 1: not as many as a lot of people would have

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Speaker 1: liked and post that. There are a lot of media

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Speaker 1: outlets and even conflicting data that suggests that veil reform

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Speaker 1: is directly correlated with what feels like a rise in

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Speaker 1: crime in major cities like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to have a conversation with someone about

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Speaker 1: that with nuance acknowledging the inherent white supremacy of our

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Speaker 1: criminal system and how it was designed to disproportionately incarcerate,

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Speaker 1: you know, black and brown people, and the corruption and

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Speaker 1: how inhumane people are treated in prisons. I believe that

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Speaker 1: everyone is a human being, no matter what they've done,

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Speaker 1: and they should be treated with humanity, no matter what

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Speaker 1: they've done or accused of having done. That is a

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Speaker 1: core value of mine. And what about people who are

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Speaker 1: experiencing higher rates of crime, who are victims of crime?

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Speaker 1: What about public safety? And when I discovered Oliami oh Lauren,

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Speaker 1: I thought she might be the perfect person to talk

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Speaker 1: with about this subject. O liamy oh lauren is a

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Speaker 1: movement lawyer, political commentator, and writer originally from Nasau, the Bahamas.

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Speaker 1: O'lauren is a public defender at the Legal Aid Society

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Speaker 1: in New York City and a leader in the movement

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Speaker 1: to close Riker's Detention Center. She's a frequent media presence

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Speaker 1: and has appeared on outlets like The Breakfast Club, Last

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Speaker 1: Week Tonight with John Oliver, MSNBC, CBS, NPR, NBC, and

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Speaker 1: many more. She also co hosts The Leftist Mafia on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: as well as her own call in show Tea Time

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Speaker 1: with Olay, and she has a monthly essay newsletter called

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Speaker 1: Laura Naughty, where she critically analyzes different issues of our time.

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Speaker 1: She received her jd from Saint John's University and her

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Speaker 1: BA from Ohio University. Please enjoy my conversation with Oliami

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Speaker 1: Oh Lauren, Welcome Ole to the podcast. How are you

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Speaker 1: feeling today?

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Speaker 3: I am great. I'm feeling good.

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Speaker 1: So okay. First of all, I have to say that

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Speaker 1: I don't know when it was that I became obsessed

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Speaker 1: with you. You're so much fun and so unexpected, like

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Speaker 1: the dragon ball z in the background, like you're such

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Speaker 1: a nerd, but like you're so fly, and you happen

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Speaker 1: to be a really smart, well researched, brilliant attorney. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about that work. Let's

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Speaker 1: start there that the work that you do as a

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Speaker 1: public defender. Are you still doing that work because I

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Speaker 1: know you're doing a lot more in the media now

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Speaker 1: and you're writing a lot more.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm moving Lauren, political commentator. I like to call

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Speaker 2: it like a professional loud mouth. Make my life easy

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Speaker 2: to encapsulate at all. So I am not in the

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Speaker 2: court day to day as a PD anymore, but that's

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Speaker 2: as a very recently right now, what I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: do basically is advocacy has to extend beyond the courtroom,

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Speaker 2: right Like, if you're in the courtroom, you're doing your

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Speaker 2: best to contend with what the circumstances already are. But

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Speaker 2: if I want my clients to be not between that

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Speaker 2: rock and the hard place, I need to be out

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Speaker 2: in the world trying to shift social consciousness. And as

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Speaker 2: much as I love to I love the work that

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Speaker 2: I do, I am still just one person. But there

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Speaker 2: are lots of other incredibly talented people that are doing

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Speaker 2: the same work, that have the same advocacy, but they

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Speaker 2: don't have their foot in the door in these media spaces.

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Speaker 2: So what I'm currently doing now is basically locating and

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Speaker 2: plugging them into the media and stuff so that we

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Speaker 2: can do better at combating these narratives that basically keep

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Speaker 2: us incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: So I consume a lot of Most of the media

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Speaker 1: I consume now is with be independent media, would be

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Speaker 1: probably leftist media, a lot of Internet stuff everyone on

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Speaker 1: leftists Mafia. I watch regularly for the most part, and

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Speaker 1: it is rare to see black faces in that space,

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Speaker 1: and on Young Turks, we have shot Richie and we

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Speaker 1: have Nina Turner, so there are black faces in those spaces.

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Speaker 1: But it feels, I feel scattered, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the conversation on the left left feels class reductionist to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you get that sense, and doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel intersextionual enough. And so it's like and then it's

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Speaker 1: almost like race becomes inconvenient to talk about or too

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Speaker 1: divisive and it doesn't feel intersexual enough. Intersectionality has become

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Speaker 1: a really bad word, especially with the governor of Florida,

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Speaker 1: and it's so necessary one little like soapbox. I want

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Speaker 1: to just kind of go on. I was thinking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, Ron Santus is like trying to ban AP.

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Speaker 1: I think he basically has, or at least they've changed

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Speaker 1: the curriculum for AP African American studies and high schools

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Speaker 1: in Florida. And he was like, they have stuff like

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Speaker 1: queer theory and intersectionality, and what does that have to

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Speaker 1: do with history? And it's just like that is history.

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Speaker 3: That's literally the epitome of history.

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Speaker 1: Like well, some like you know, by rusting, like you know,

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Speaker 1: work with Martin Luther King organize the March on Washington

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Speaker 1: is black and gay. Yeah, and even the intersectional piece,

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Speaker 1: Like there's so many conversations I see now going on

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Speaker 1: about like what's going on with men and and and

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Speaker 1: the crisis for men, and a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are white men. And it's like, you can't

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Speaker 1: have that conversation without intersectionality because you have to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Class, right, But they don't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: So it's like it's it's just a way of analyzing things.

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Speaker 1: It's like a way to have a complicated approach things.

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Speaker 1: But I guess the nuance isn't like, isn't helpful to

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Speaker 1: maintain the system as it is?

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Speaker 2: No, America America is all about that. America loves to

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Speaker 2: carve the problem up into parts, right. They love to

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Speaker 2: criticize a part of the problem. That way, you don't

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Speaker 2: talk about the overall structure that you need.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: That's why they won't talk about prisons, but they'll talk

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Speaker 2: about private prisons, right, They'll talk about non Liverpool wages,

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Speaker 2: but they won't talk about capitalism overall. You know, they

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Speaker 2: love to break it up like that, And I think

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Speaker 2: it's because it's not to me a coincidence that you

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Speaker 2: see when you see movements are successful, the first thing

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Speaker 2: that they do is they start trying to prohibit what

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Speaker 2: information we have access to. Right you see the Black

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Speaker 2: Lives Matter protests take off and George Floyd and then

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Speaker 2: immediately what you've seen them do is make this concerted

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Speaker 2: effort to keep everything out of the books because they

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Speaker 2: recognize that if you know certain things, it changes your position.

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Speaker 2: Like a few days ago, I had someone say to me,

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Speaker 2: I tweeted out a Hue Newton quote and they responded, some,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know our community, how they can be

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Speaker 2: with their homophobia and the transphobia.

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Speaker 3: So she she can wait to jump in as an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: She was like, do you think Hughey Newton would have

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Speaker 2: been a transactivist? And I was like, first of all, actually, yes, probably,

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Speaker 2: And I supposed to a screenshot from his book when

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Speaker 2: he had a whole chapter an essay about needing to

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Speaker 2: join in with the liberation of LGBT people and women.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, one, yes, but two, if you hadn't,

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Speaker 2: that would not be a position. I wouldn't be like, ah, right,

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Speaker 2: he's a transphobe. Gotta get on that but that's what

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Speaker 2: they do, right, So we were not informed. But if

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Speaker 2: we learn more about things and people realize, hey, this

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Speaker 2: is not actually new the thing that you're pretending just

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Speaker 2: because it's the first time you're hearing about it, or

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Speaker 2: it's being used as a political pawn in this way,

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Speaker 2: it's not actually new. There's actually a lot of information

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Speaker 2: and people change and you see that over time. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: they don't want any any form of intersectionality.

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Speaker 1: Well it gets deep. I mean I think about the

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Speaker 1: piece of you know, I just focused on the Breakfast Club.

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Speaker 1: I loved your appearance in the Breakfast Club. You were

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Speaker 1: there before me. Were wow, and it was a beautiful interview,

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Speaker 1: and the comments on YouTube were great. And then they're

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the excerpts on Instagram were so transphobic.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not you know, I'm I'm used to it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not bothered. I and none of it's really even

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Speaker 1: new anymore. Part of me, it's like, can you come

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Speaker 1: up with something new? You know, and they're just misdondering

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Speaker 1: me or whatever. But like that resistance too, it's so

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Speaker 1: deep to me. But like for black folks, for us

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Speaker 1: who understand in a deep way, systemic oppression would then

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Speaker 1: and go and participate in the oppression of other people.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of black fields are really conservative too,

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Speaker 1: I mean religion, Christianity, I mean just how conservative a

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Speaker 1: lot of black folks is. It's interesting, even though we

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Speaker 1: vote mostly Democratic, a lot of us are rather conservative.

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Speaker 3: It's because the race.

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Speaker 2: If Republicans for one second decided they weren't galvanized around

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Speaker 2: white identity and racism, they would probably be able to

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Speaker 2: get a lot of black people on their side. As

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Speaker 2: someone who's from the Caribbean, incredibly conservative, incredibly conservative in

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Speaker 2: terms of quote unquote value systems, And I think that

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Speaker 2: actually goes back to the whole thing of you know,

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Speaker 2: wanting to criticize a part, but not the problem. The

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Speaker 2: problem they're having is not capitalism, it's not systemic oppression,

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Speaker 2: It is not a class. They don't have a problem

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Speaker 2: inherently that there are these class devises or that everybody

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Speaker 2: doesn't have access to the same things or don't have

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Speaker 2: equity with.

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Speaker 3: Their problem is is that they don't.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that's why I think it's important in

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Speaker 2: the way that we educate ourselves that we have to

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Speaker 2: be critical of the entire system and be critical of

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Speaker 2: all the ways in which oppression functions, because what happens

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Speaker 2: is we come to educated around only what we deem

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Speaker 2: as having to do with us. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: why they've made such a concerted effort to always constantly

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Speaker 2: act as though the black community is separate and apart

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Speaker 2: from the LGBT community and just erase black were people,

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Speaker 2: because if you for one second have that inclusive moment

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Speaker 2: and you think of it as are our shared thing,

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Speaker 2: then you realize that there's no way for us to

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Speaker 2: actually do anything that benefits all of us or creates

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Speaker 2: equity for all of us without attacking the system overall.

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Speaker 1: So much of the work that you do around I mean,

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Speaker 1: the piece you just wrote about my incarceration being slavery,

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Speaker 1: and then the teen Vogue piece about the Tyree Nichols

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Speaker 1: case very, I mean, very different pieces, but similar in

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Speaker 1: the way in which you call out structural white supremacy

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Speaker 1: and the way that the criminal system. You're careful like

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Speaker 1: to say the criminal justice system, but the criminal system

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Speaker 1: was formed. And I think when we I think those

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Speaker 1: of us who've done work, you know the history of

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Speaker 1: policing life, We know that policing started his slave patrols.

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Speaker 1: And you talk about the thirteenth Amendment and your Peace

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Speaker 1: and how that made slavery legal. Basically it outlawed it.

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Speaker 1: A family member of mine when I was doing my

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Speaker 1: genealogy or like great great grandfather Manuel Cox was like

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Speaker 1: he was basically like in the nineteen hundreds, was got

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Speaker 1: arrested for stealing a dead cow. That made the family,

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Speaker 1: his family sick, Like they found a dead cow on

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Speaker 1: the like found a dead cow on the road, took

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Speaker 1: the dead cow, they cooked it. Everybody got sick from

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Speaker 1: the cow in the house. And they tracked him down

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Speaker 1: and arrested him for stealing this dead cow. They made

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Speaker 1: everybody sick. He went to jail and then out of jail,

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Speaker 1: he was sold into indentured servitude. Like this happened in

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Speaker 1: my family. So in that moment, I and it's so funny.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know. I've watched The color Purple multiple times,

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Speaker 1: but when I watched it, and when Sophia goes to

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Speaker 1: jail and then she comes out and she's forced to

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Speaker 1: be someone's maid, that's the system that we were dealing with.

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Speaker 1: That if you were incarcerat then you could basically be

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Speaker 1: sold into slavery. I mean, it was literally being sold

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Speaker 1: back into slavery at that time. Now it's just that

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Speaker 1: the prisons themselves are you know, in genery servitude.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about your piece that

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Speaker 1: you just wrote about mass incarceration being slavery. Can you

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Speaker 1: expound on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, you know, I feel like people often don't

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Speaker 2: want to have like very plain English conversations about the

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Speaker 2: criminal system or the state of racism in America what

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Speaker 2: needs to be done, because the reality is the answer

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Speaker 2: is very clear. But if you and if you don't

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Speaker 2: want to do that, you want to push back, and

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Speaker 2: it has to be all this nuance to it. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's why they don't want to call mass

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Speaker 2: incarceration slavery. Why they like to be like, oh, it's

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Speaker 2: modern day slavery, or it's slavery two point or all

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Speaker 2: these things.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no, it's.

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Speaker 2: Actually explicitly slavery, like you have slavery. Your government went

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Speaker 2: and recognized, hey, we'll aballish slavery, except except we can

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Speaker 2: enslave people that we convict of a crime. And then

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Speaker 2: they made a conscious choice, a conscious policy decision to

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Speaker 2: engage in mass incarceration. And you know, when you're raised

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Speaker 2: in a society where you of policing and you think

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Speaker 2: of prisons like you think about water and air, you

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Speaker 2: don't realize it as a man made institution.

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Speaker 3: Or these are policy choices that you.

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Speaker 2: Don't have to live in a country where they have

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Speaker 2: two million people incarcerated, Or it doesn't make sense to

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Speaker 2: say you're innocent until proven guilty, but four hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: people are locked up pre trial. So I like to

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Speaker 2: engage it from that perspective and recognize that people are

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Speaker 2: not going to even if you tell them that and

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Speaker 2: you present them with the facts, they are not going

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Speaker 2: to just abandon their entire worldview. I expect it to

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Speaker 2: be like abolition and really come in to internalize these things.

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Speaker 3: Has to be a process.

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Speaker 2: But reality is that is that mass incarceration is slavery

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't make us safer beyond the fact that

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Speaker 2: it's morally bankrupt.

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Speaker 1: Can you parse that out more? And I mean, I

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Speaker 1: read your piece, but I would love you to talk

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Speaker 1: specifically about the labor, what prisoners get paid for their labor,

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Speaker 1: how much money they're generating, Like you have all these

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Speaker 1: facts that are cited in your piece. What was we

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Speaker 1: should link to this in show notes. I forget where

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Speaker 1: you wrote it, but we'll link to it in the

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Speaker 1: show notes.

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Speaker 3: It's the appeal.

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Speaker 1: The appeal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the thing.

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Speaker 2: America spends more money on policing and mass incarceration than

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Speaker 2: anywhere else in the world. And there's no other place

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Speaker 2: that constantly complains about being not safe and crime hysteria constantly.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because America will present it, you know,

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Speaker 2: the news and the media will treat crime waves or

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Speaker 2: all these crime problems as something to reflect to negatively

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Speaker 2: on progressives or activists or people who are abolitionists. And

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Speaker 2: it's like, well, that makes no sense because the only

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Speaker 2: method that's in place in this country is policing, is

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Speaker 2: mass incarceration, is tough on crime. So if you're saying

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Speaker 2: that we're not safer, that is a reflection on that

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Speaker 2: system being not successful. But importantly, it's not meant to

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Speaker 2: be right. So the whole purpose of our legal system

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Speaker 2: is to make sure that we reproduce these kinds of arms.

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Speaker 2: America has made a business over this. America makes billions

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Speaker 2: over eleven point six billion dollars on goods produced from

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Speaker 2: prison labor every year that's not expob.

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Speaker 1: Eleven point six billion dollars on goods produced by prison labor.

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Speaker 1: That's that's an important thing for people to just digest

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Speaker 1: that there are people who are incarcerated who can make

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Speaker 1: like maybe they make four hundred dollars a year like

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Speaker 1: in their pennies, you know, and they won't make that,

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Speaker 1: and they won't make that because living costs will come

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Speaker 1: out of that. Yeah, do they even do? I think

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Speaker 1: they tax it too, it's good.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they absolutely do tax it, and most states don't

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Speaker 2: even pay. So I think on average is somewhere like

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Speaker 2: on a riot state. If you have a state that cares,

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Speaker 2: you might get twenty one cents, and most states just

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Speaker 2: completely he.

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Speaker 1: Went since a day or twenty one cents, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Twenty one cents, twenty one cents a day, twenty one

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Speaker 2: cents and that's if that. But most states, most states

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Speaker 2: just don't even engage in the pretense you're just not

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Speaker 2: paid period. You just have to engage in this labor,

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Speaker 2: and that labor is what is used. And on top

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Speaker 2: of that, so if you have eleven point six billion

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Speaker 2: dollars in goods that they're producing, and that's in private

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Speaker 2: and public prisons. I want to make sure I make

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Speaker 2: that player because people will be like, you'll say that,

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Speaker 2: and they'd be like, Oh, these private prisidents gotta go

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Speaker 2: turn into a business. The whole thing is a business,

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Speaker 2: and that's important because a business is meant to expand. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's literally, that's just not and that's not a theoretical one.

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Speaker 2: That's what America's actual like corporation laws are and what

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Speaker 2: their whole feasis.

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Speaker 3: Around business is. Right.

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Speaker 2: So if a business is meant to expand, they make

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Speaker 2: that much money off of prison labor, they make another

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Speaker 2: twenty eight billion dollars in fines and fees associated with

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Speaker 2: criminal convictions. And I think that's important because the vast

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Speaker 2: majority of everybody in the US criminal system is represented

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Speaker 2: by a public defender, which means they're too poor to

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Speaker 2: afford an attorney. And I need is to understand what

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Speaker 2: that really means in terms of poverty. I, as a

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Speaker 2: person could not afford my own lawyer. If right now

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Speaker 2: I had to pay a lawyer'll be sick. I'd be like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: this is going to hurt me. It is going to

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Speaker 2: cut me dry, and I would not qualify for a

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Speaker 2: public defender. And I was even at my brokess, just

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Speaker 2: fresh out of law school, dead broke, I still wouldn't

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Speaker 2: qualified for a public defender.

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Speaker 3: So to qualify for.

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Speaker 2: A public defender, you have to be underneath the poverty line.

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Speaker 2: Statistically speaking, most arrests nationwide, most people who are arrested

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Speaker 2: made less than twelve thousand dollars annually prior to arrest.

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Speaker 3: So this is dead poor.

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Speaker 2: So if the majority, the vast majority of when your

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Speaker 2: criminal system across the country are literally underneath the poverty line,

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Speaker 2: what does that tell us? So, now, if you're arrested,

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Speaker 2: you already live in the poorest communities, the most underresourced communities.

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Speaker 2: And once you're arrested, you have a criminal case. You

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Speaker 2: can't get a job, you lose your housing, you are

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Speaker 2: fines and fees. If you have a criminal conviction, you

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Speaker 2: go to jail. Now you and your family are sidled

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Speaker 2: and what is quite literally billions of dollars nationwide of debt.

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Speaker 2: How could you ever possibly escape that? How could you

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Speaker 2: ever turn your life around?

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Speaker 3: How could you ever be wealthy? You can't. You can't,

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Speaker 3: and neither can your family and your loved ones.

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Speaker 1: And what's deep to me is how often black and

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Speaker 1: brown people are criminalized so early. Yeah, we get us

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Speaker 1: in assistant so early. There was a beautiful podcast that

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Speaker 1: I posted in twenty twenty that looked at the history

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Speaker 1: of policing, and I forget the professor who did the podcast,

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Speaker 1: but it looked at the history of policing, and his

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Speaker 1: research started from being arrested. I think it was in

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Speaker 1: an Ivy League school. He was arrested for like putting

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Speaker 1: some posters up. They didn't realize he was a student

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Speaker 1: at the school, and then he like sued and they

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Speaker 1: tried and eventually they dropped the charges. But what just

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Speaker 1: stuck out to me, this is years ago that I

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Speaker 1: listened to it, is that the police were like, there

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Speaker 1: has to be a record you're black. There has to

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Speaker 1: be some kind of record on you already, because there's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the assumption that we've because we were often criminalized so early. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is a good time to take a little break.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back though. Alrighty, we're back. Luckily I

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Speaker 1: haven't been profiled by a police match. But the first

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Speaker 1: time I went to Vegas in twenty twelve, I was

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Speaker 1: stopped on the strip and a police officer said, can

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Speaker 1: we see your ID? And I was like, what, you know.

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Speaker 1: The funny thing is, I just met these white girls

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Speaker 1: at Pure if Pure nightclub. We were going after hours.

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, I met these white girls and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is Laverne from VH one I just met. To me,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure mbH one, this is Laverne. They're drunk white girls.

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Speaker 1: This is Laverne. Reached one to the cops and they're

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Speaker 1: like ah, and they're like, we need to see your ID.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just like, well, what is this about, sir?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, like, what is this about?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: What's going on? Yeah? You know, I get very you know, proper.

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Speaker 3: One, Yeah, you get your nice voice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's happening? What's going on? You meet the description

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Speaker 1: if someone were looking for. And I was just like,

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Speaker 1: really right, you are really I look real cute. And

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Speaker 1: so I give him my ID and they're gone for

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Speaker 1: like twenty minutes or so, and then I'm just kind

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Speaker 1: of like when the girls are like, what's going you know,

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Speaker 1: and so, and they come back like twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: minutes later, so they're taking a minute. They bring in

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Speaker 1: my head and they say, oh, you've been a very

404
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Speaker 1: good girl, and they just kind of look at me,

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Speaker 1: You've been a very.

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Speaker 3: Good because they can't believe it.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. His reaction was so he was

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Speaker 1: so surprised. He was so surprised that there wasn't a warrant,

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Speaker 1: that there wasn't some arrest, that there wasn't something. In retrospect,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, Okay, they didn't want a black trans

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Speaker 1: woman on the strip. They probably thought I was doing

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Speaker 1: sex work and they were trying to like that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, that's probably what was going on. Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: he was so upset that I hadn't been arrested, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that there wasn't something they could their warn outstanding

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Speaker 1: warrant that they could get me on. And it was

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Speaker 1: that was deep to me. That was like, I'll and

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Speaker 1: so it's just the assumption. So they criminalize, it's so early,

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Speaker 1: and then it's just like it becomes this cycle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the reality is, I mean, listen where our

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Speaker 2: environments and how we are perceived in this world and

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Speaker 2: what we have set up to what is made normal

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Speaker 2: for us has everything to do with who we become. Right,

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Speaker 2: Like the reason why I went to school I went

425
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Speaker 2: to college is because my daddy went to college. Both

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Speaker 2: my parents went to college, so it wasn't I didn't

427
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Speaker 2: even have to think about it. There were certain things.

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Speaker 2: But by the time I got to America, and I'm

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Speaker 2: all these white environments and they're saying all these things

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Speaker 2: to me that are so interesting.

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Speaker 1: People who don't know you're from the Bahamas. Yes, she's

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Speaker 1: behaving and darling, that's the beautiful accent. Thank you, go on, and.

433
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,199
Speaker 2: So you know you're very much what becomes normal for you,

434
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: well what seems likely for you is based on that.

435
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: And like so and what I went when I moved

436
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 2: to America. I went to Florida, then West Virginia, then Ohio,

437
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: than New York and by myself my parents a home

438
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 2: in Omahama's no concept of America, no speech, no warning,

439
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 2: no nothing, right. So I'm kind of like learning as

440
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: I go, and I'm realizing this is really racist. And

441
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 2: I remember my senior year of college, my English my

442
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 2: senior high school, my English teacher called me into her

443
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: classroom to tell me how I was gonna.

444
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 3: Fail out of college.

445
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 2: Like She's given me this whole speech about how I'm

446
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 2: not gonna be success successful.

447
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 3: And I remember it goes on.

448
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 2: For so long because she clearly when she played it

449
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 2: out in her mind, you know, she thought she would

450
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: say a couple of little things, and I would like

451
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 2: fall apart, or you would see the impact of me

452
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 2: really internalizing that.

453
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 1: And you're a senior in high school. What and what

454
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 1: was she basing this on that you would fail out

455
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: of college, not a senior.

456
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 2: In high school at a college preparatory school with the

457
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: most college acceptances in the senior class. But nothing other

458
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 2: than you know, if you she expects this way that

459
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 2: you know her inherent you know about whiteness and centering

460
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 2: itself right, is that she her opinion should be in

461
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 2: so much more to me than it will.

462
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: It will dictate beyond what are the facts, what are statistics?

463
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 2: Whatever my family believes, because if this is West Virginia,

464
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: you should be raised in the world. In her mind,

465
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: you should be a raised in the world where you

466
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,880
Speaker 2: think that you were beneath, where you already have these

467
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: low self esteem. That I should be able to come

468
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 2: in here and and plant the seed in you and

469
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: it should really take hold.

470
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 3: But for me, my dad, he.

471
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: Want to Oxford, he's an architect. My mom is a CPA,

472
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: my big sister want to call it. So I'm sitting

473
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 2: there looking at her, trying to process it.

474
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 1: But you were also raising the Bahamas. I think there's

475
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: something when I when I look at like a Grace

476
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 1: Jones and any mon in a Naomi Campbell and people

477
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: who are not I mean, certainly these are, you know,

478
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: colonized places, but there there's a real specific way that

479
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: racism operates in the United States to like exactly, to

480
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 1: like break black people down.

481
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

482
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: And when you see it, when you see a Grace Jones,

483
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: I just remember reading her book, her memoir, and like

484
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: she gets here and she was shocked that you know

485
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: when but she never internalized this sense of less than

486
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: a man, oh the bringing them on. She always knew

487
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 1: she was a queen. Yeah, Naomi, you know Rihanna, like.

488
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 3: When you don't and that is a privilege.

489
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: It's a privilege. And there's and I think so we

490
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 1: have to as African Americans, as black folks raised in

491
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: the United States, many of us have to unpack the

492
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 1: ways in which we deeply internalized racism and deeply been

493
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: told that we're less than and that we should expect less.

494
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: It is so deeply ingrained, and you see it when

495
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: you see people black folks from other countries come here,

496
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: I just need to say.

497
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly exactly, and we're not and we're not

498
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: informed in the same way. So you'll see people that

499
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 2: and that's a conversation that I had to learning. It

500
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: was years of really figuring out that out because I

501
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: remember in that moment, I'm like, what is what's going

502
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 2: on here? Why is she even saying these things? It

503
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: takes me a minute to process it. And then throughout

504
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: the years you start to be in this America where

505
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: again a lot of that and it starts to seep

506
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: in right law school for the worst years of my

507
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 2: life because of the ways that they psychologically, they were

508
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: constantly trying to convince me that I don't belong, that

509
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do well. And I thought to myself,

510
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: I have the benefit. I have the benefit of being

511
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 2: come from a country where I'm not being told with

512
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 2: my blackness.

513
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 3: I wasn't raised.

514
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: You know, we have we listen, calling ass we have

515
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: a lot of problems, but it doesn't present in the

516
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: same way. Yeah, But I'm like, I had the benefit

517
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 2: of not being raised to think these things are not

518
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: feeling like I have these particular kind of limitations and

519
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: I'm this close psychologically to you know what I mean.

520
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: This is unraveling for me. And I thought to myself,

521
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: if you're raised, if you grow up in a country,

522
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter like you could. People look at America America,

523
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of black immigrants or black

524
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: people elsewhere will make the mistake of thinking because you're

525
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: from your own country and you're looking at the most

526
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: of what America has to offer, but you're looking at

527
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: that of what America wants to offer to white people,

528
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: and you're looking at that for me, a black country

529
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: is so that's from everybody right your feet in your

530
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: believe the diversity melting pod lie. And then you don't realize, like, yeah,

531
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: if you're being raised in a country that is like

532
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 2: systemically keeping you out of every single door's making sure

533
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: it goes out of its way to not only not

534
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: let you know about opportunities, but should you happen to

535
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: find out, they will do everything that they can to

536
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 2: tell you that it doesn't belong to you.

537
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: It doesn't this you are being set up to never

538
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: escape that.

539
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 1: Speaking of crimes of poverty. Though. I really wanted to

540
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: talk to you about this because it's something I've been

541
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about and I met you. I just

542
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: thought about Khalif Broward, that horrific situation where he was

543
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: held I believe it Rikers Island for a couple of years,

544
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: just because he didn't have bail money and eventually was

545
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: you know, I think his case was dismissed or something.

546
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: They falsely accused him of stealing a backpack when he

547
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: was sixteen years old that he didn't steal, and they

548
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: kept him at Rikers for years, most of which he

549
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: was in solitary confinement, and even once the charges were

550
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: dismissed and he was released, he never recovered from the

551
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: psychological impact that experience and he eventually took his life.

552
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what spawned the Closed Rikers campaign

553
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: and a lot of what you see for bail reform.

554
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 1: And so I wanted to So I remember talking with

555
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: someone in law enforcement about that case, and what they

556
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: said is Khalif had a warrant, so it wasn't just

557
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: that he couldn't afford bail, it was that And I

558
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: looked it up and I was like, oh, there was

559
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: a warrant for his like he had a warrant he

560
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: had been something had happened, and for whatever reason, there

561
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: was a warrant out for his arrest for something he

562
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 1: had done or been involved in hanging out with the

563
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: wrong people.

564
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: But that's how a system legitimizes itself.

565
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: And so then I'm like, Okay, But then the question

566
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: seems to be and I've looked up statistics, and the

567
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: statistics are saying different things. There's anecdotal evidence that there's

568
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: a lot of anecdotal stuff. I know a lot of

569
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: people who are experiencing a lot of crime right now

570
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: here in New York and Los Angeles and San Francisco.

571
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: Crime seems to be up in terms of how it's

572
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: affecting people. I know there are different statistics that say

573
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 1: certain crimes where Baire reform happened went up twenty percent.

574
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: You know, different stories. They are saying different things, right so,

575
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I feel like the data is inconclusive right now, But

576
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: it feels to me like so for me, I want

577
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: to be careful. I want to acknowledge that our criminal

578
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: system is deeply flawed, based in white supremacy, broken that

579
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: many people are incarcerated for crimes of poverty for just

580
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: not having money. That schools and certain neighborhoods have been defunded,

581
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: people have just been demoralized. You can look at there's

582
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: a direct relationship between neighborhoods that were redlined and the

583
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: worst schools. Right, So there's all this history like stuff

584
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: that it's like, you know, we can see, But it

585
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 1: also seems as if that because people are committing crimes

586
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: and are out in a few hours, that they're going

587
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: on and committing more crimes. And for me, the question

588
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: is a lot of a lot of abolitionists and defund

589
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: folks talk about the humanity of those folks who are

590
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: accused and those people who are incarcerated, and I believe

591
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: in that. I believe everyone is a human being. But

592
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: what about those people who are victims of crime?

593
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: Okay?

594
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: So you who were steeped in this work, what are

595
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that and taught to me?

596
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so listen, Yeah, there's a lot of things to unpacked.

597
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 2: So first of all, we're inundated with coppaganda twenty four

598
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: to seven, and that's something that's important. We are inengated

599
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: with copakanda to make us ouppose progressive reforms copaganda. And

600
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: there's a website. There's a beautiful website called Justice not

601
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: Fair dot org where they debunk all of the myths

602
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: when it comes to baill reform and specifically New York

603
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: and in Chicago.

604
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 3: Here's the reality about bail.

605
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: The purpose, the legal purpose of bail is to make

606
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: sure to ensure someone returns to court. The media loves

607
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: to talk about it to us as though it's this

608
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 2: public safety analysis and whatnot. That's not what it is.

609
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: The purpose of bail is to ensure someone returns to court.

610
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: If you have money for bail, you'll be out. Has

611
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: nothing to do with dangerousness. The five cops who kill

612
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: Tyrie Nichols are out on bail, on cash bail.

613
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: It's about money. Rittenhouse posted as cash bail. He was out.

614
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: Every white person, every rich person, they are out. So

615
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: that's one two. Statistically in New York City, it has

616
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: not led to a rise in crime. The purpose actually,

617
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: we like I said, the legal purpose is to make

618
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: sure your return to court. In actual returning to court

619
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: has been high since passing bail reform, and in terms

620
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: of rearrest for any level of violent crime, it has

621
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: been less than two percent statewide. And it's important to

622
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: know that eighty to eighty five percent of all felonies

623
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: in New York State end up getting resolved as something

624
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: far less than that anyhow, and over eighty percent of

625
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 2: all arrest nationwide are not for violent crime. It has

626
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: sensationalized to us in that way, but that's just not

627
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: the reality of what's happened.

628
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: And so that's the one. Two.

629
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: We all care about crime. There's a way people think,

630
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: you know, oh, only they care about crime. Caring about

631
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: crime does not mean that you have to believe that

632
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: the way to stop crime or to prevent crime is

633
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: to keep expanding and putting more money into policing and

634
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: mass incarceration. At the end of the day, that's not working. So, yes,

635
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: we all care about crime. That's what we're doing. They

636
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: love to focus on places like New York State, which

637
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: is also a dog whistle. They love to focus on

638
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: New York City, focus on Chicago, focus on La focus

639
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: on any places where there is a large black population

640
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: that is being criminalized. Meanwhile, you would never know that

641
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: New Jersey under Governor Christy, eliminated cash.

642
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: Bail in twenty fourteen fourteen. You ain't hurt a peek.

643
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: But New York City does it in twenty twenty and

644
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: you can't hear about nothing else. Chicago even suggests doing it.

645
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: It's not even implemented as law yet, and they're lying

646
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: and pretending like that has something to do with the

647
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: spiking crime.

648
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 3: So that's one too importantly.

649
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know what number we're at, but when

650
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: it comes to crime in the communities the community is

651
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: most impacted by crime, are the ones telling you that

652
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: they don't want more police.

653
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, when you see these

654
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 3: news articles and you see.

655
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: People, oh, I'm so scared and so crime, they're never

656
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: the victims of crime. They never live in these neighborhoods.

657
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: They're never calling for more police in their neighborhoods. They're

658
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: calling for it somewhere else.

659
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: Right.

660
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: It just as reality is that the safest communities are

661
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: not the most police and the most resourced. If that

662
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 2: was the case, we wouldn't have the same community as

663
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: the same black and brown poor communities being the high

664
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: crime areas.

665
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: For generation and after generation.

666
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 2: So I think it's important to listen, like, yes, we

667
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: do want us to listen to the people that are

668
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: most impacted by crime the people that live in the

669
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: black neighborhoods that are dealing with the police. And that's

670
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: who's telling you, Hey, what I don't need is a

671
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: police officer stationed out my house like it is every day,

672
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: conducting illegal stops, are harassing blacks that come off the

673
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: subway or doing that. What we need is that's same money,

674
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: the same willingness that you have to put into policing.

675
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: You should put that into mental health. You should put

676
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: it into housing, you should put it into education, You

677
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: should put it all these things, because that is what

678
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: causes crime. And I think you know, when we think

679
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: of crimes of poverty, people think of it as just like,

680
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: did you steal some food because you're hungry, that's crime

681
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: of poverty, or you stole some money. But crimes of poverty,

682
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: poverty impacts your psyche, It impacts your life, It impacts

683
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: how you deal with problems, how you respond to things,

684
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 2: how things compound you. I always tell people, in twenty fifteen,

685
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: I was more likely to knock you out than in

686
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three because I have money and disposable income now.

687
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: And I think people have to think about that. It's

688
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: a lot of what the criminal system is is us

689
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: judging people for how they respond to circumstances that we're

690
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: in and in like we will we will say non

691
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: violent crime will make carve outs for a non violent

692
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: crime is understanding how that's linked to poverty, but not

693
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: violent crime.

694
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 3: When some people are.

695
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: Living in communities where they have to fight for their lives,

696
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: where they have to engage in it, so where they

697
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: feel like they have to take for others, so it

698
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 2: has to be a more holistic picture. So I recognize

699
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: it and not going to and I'm not necessarily asked

700
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 2: fornat a world where they are going to open up

701
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: all the jails every day and open up the courts.

702
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is, right now, you have invested,

703
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 2: you have hyper invested into policing and mass incarceration. What

704
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: if instead, by bit by bit, you start divesting from

705
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: that and giving people the money that they need. The

706
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: same way white communities, it's treated as an opioid crisis

707
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: and not the crack epidemic or the war on drugs.

708
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: Right, it's an opioid.

709
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: Crisis or oh, mental health or you see the kind

710
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: of things they're raised in court, like I don't know

711
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: if you've ever heard about the affluenza defense. I'm too

712
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: affluent to understand my accic. Oh, that was amazing, and

713
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: that's realize and realized. I know that gagged me. I

714
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: was like, are you girl?

715
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: I mean yes, if you have money and this I

716
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: think it feels like if you have money black and white,

717
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: then you are more likely to like not spend.

718
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 3: Time and you're in a different position.

719
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: You're in a really different position, still class but intersectionality.

720
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: So then.

721
00:32:53,320 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: So okay, I hear you, I'm with you. But what happens?

722
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: So there are people, I mean I know someone who

723
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: were they they police a really high crime one of

724
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: the highest crime areas in Long Island, and you know

725
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: a lot of gangs, a lot of drug you know,

726
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: drug dealers. They leave them alone a lot they're just like, okay,

727
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: chill whatever. There's a lot of warrants out on them.

728
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: Then sometimes it's like you know, there's guns and there's whatever,

729
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: and they have to arrest them and then a few

730
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: hours later they're out.

731
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: And then that is a bit Can I dress a

732
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 3: re quick with a few hours?

733
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: That is not the case, Like, let's just if you

734
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: get arrested in New York, you are going to be

735
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 2: in jail. You're looking at least the next sixteen hours

736
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: or something before you get a rave. It's like a

737
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: day's process one. But to most of everything in New

738
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: York City is still bail eligible. The only thing in

739
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: your York.

740
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: Maybe that's Long Island then, because in line, because.

741
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: Long Island is even worse the case I'm hearing about it,

742
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: don't mind them that like the next day they're out.

743
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: This is what I've been.

744
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: Told, if it depends on what it is. But again,

745
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: this is propaganda. They literally they lie. They lie, just

746
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: point blank period. And I know that's hard to understand,

747
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: like to believe, because we should be able to rely on.

748
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: And also Long Island.

749
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: Let's also look at like the areas Long Island is

750
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: incredibly segregated, like incredibly segregated New York City in general.

751
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: People don't talk about that. Now New York City is

752
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: the most segregated schools in the country. That is a reality.

753
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 3: It's not a coincidence. Long Island.

754
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they basically have relegated their entire black and brown

755
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: and poor population to one little area and they police

756
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: them and they treat them this way, and whatever it is,

757
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 2: and they saddle people with criminal convictions in New York,

758
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: hen New Jersey. If you have a gun and they

759
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: arrest you, you're want to jail, especially without cash bail,

760
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: without the cash bail system, it's worse for you because

761
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: they're not eve gonna set a bail costing you. They're

762
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: just gonna remind you and you're going to be You're

763
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: not only you're going to be in jail pretraul, but

764
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 2: you're go into jail for at least three years.

765
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: So that's just not true.

766
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: And it's also just not the vast majority of what's

767
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: in our criminal system at all, like at all. I

768
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: wish I've reached that omber a thousand people in New

769
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: York now wan Gung Gays.

770
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, Okay, it's that time again. We'll be right back.

771
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: We are back. So then I'm I'm I don't want

772
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: to say a victim. I've been compagandized. I've been propagandized

773
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: around crime, and but I do also know a lot

774
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: of folks who are experiencing crime. The staffs and a

775
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine was like hit by some homeless person

776
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: who obviously was mentally ill and was struck by them.

777
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: Another person I know was struck by someone who is

778
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: mentally ill and homeless. But when I think about those communities,

779
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: right that are over policed and under resourced, and I

780
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: think about like the terrible schools, the terrible schools, and

781
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: then like the kids who will come up and they're

782
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: just there's gangs everywhere, and there's just not a lot

783
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: of even options around, Like you're just kind of like

784
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: gotta get in this gang or like leave the neighborhood, right,

785
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: you got to somehow get your kid out or something like.

786
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: So it's like, how do how does one even begin

787
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: to when there's inner generational trauma neglect just inhumanity, right,

788
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: these generations and generations, How do you begin to make

789
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 1: inroads when like the education hasn't been valued for generation.

790
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: You can and you can't.

791
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 3: And I think that's the no.

792
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you America has this way of convinced,

793
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: especially with black people, convincing Black people that is on

794
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: us and on our shoulders to hope that you are

795
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: the one person that makes it out. You know what

796
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: I mean that it's an incumbent on us to try

797
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: to figure out a magical way to treadd through adversity

798
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: that nobody else would have to.

799
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 3: But the reality is you are being set up. You

800
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: are set up to fail.

801
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: And the way that the system legitimizes itself is by

802
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 2: not recognizing its role until after that. Right, Like, the

803
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: reality is the fact that you were raised into that

804
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 2: you were born into that community, into that neighborhood where

805
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: this is what you have to contend.

806
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: But that's on purpose. It's not the system coming in like, WHOA,

807
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: how do I deal with this? This is a problem.

808
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: The system is like, ah, look at that, round them up,

809
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: And it's on purpose. There's a reason why you know,

810
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: NIGHTSA buildings are seviled the way they are.

811
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 3: They put up all these rules.

812
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: They arrest people for lobby and they have gang databases

813
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: where oh, you kids are hanging out together, gang, I'm

814
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: gonna charge you for this. And if you do that

815
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: enough times, people have enough rap sheets. What people do,

816
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: come to believe, what their options are, where they come

817
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: to believe about each other, where they come to value,

818
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: and all these different things will work in tangent. So

819
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: eventually you see a system in a society of total

820
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: or you see a community that appears to be in

821
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: disarray and it appears like it's just the community that's

822
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: in this disarray. But you were thrown into disarray and

823
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: you were told fight figure it out. And when you

824
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: get to when you get to the door and you're trying, however,

825
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: you are trying to fight your way out, I'm going

826
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: to be there to decide or you don't want to

827
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,240
Speaker 2: let out. Are you somebody that goes to jail being criminalized? Listen,

828
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: in the Bahamas we have massive poverty, but a six

829
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: most expensive place to live in the world. We have

830
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: a minimum wage of five dollars and twenty five cents

831
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: a dollar is equal. So I know what it is

832
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: to see black people be impoverished, but I'm not.

833
00:37:59,680 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: I don't.

834
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is in terms of growing up.

835
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: I can see the difference in what it means to

836
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: be criminalized in that way in which you're taught about yourself.

837
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: Because we could be poor in the Bahamas, but there's

838
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: not a boot to my neck. You see what I'm saying.

839
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: There's not a boot to your neck. They're not the police.

840
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: The Royal Bahamas Police Force is not there trying to

841
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: make it their every business to put you in and

842
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: out of the jail system in America, the average black

843
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: man at some point in time will be arrested by

844
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: the time he's twenty nine years old. That's not a

845
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: black reality. And a lot of black nations that are

846
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: black majority nations that are dealing with poverty, that are

847
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: third world, but they don't deal with what it is

848
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 2: the day to day criminalized experience. So I think it's

849
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: important for us so when we look at that, like, yeah,

850
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 2: that is how they have being set up.

851
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: So if we can't so if we can't make interventions,

852
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: you know, dilapidated schools and underresourced and there is higher

853
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: crime in those communities, then what do we do then

854
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: if we can't heal that.

855
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: I think it's incumbent on and that's why I said one.

856
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: I think is important that we be educated to what

857
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,959
Speaker 2: is the larger structures than what we need to go after,

858
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 2: and the fact that we need to make it clear

859
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: like no, it's not a boot strap thing, it's not

860
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: ouriat if it's not something that we individually can pull

861
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 2: ourselves up about. It's about what we had the ability,

862
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 2: the privilegion, the structures that we need to be placed.

863
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: In our money is and our efforts there.

864
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 2: It's also incumbent black people that do have the benefit,

865
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: like myself of you think you know better, do better

866
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 2: you live in those communities like me and my mentor

867
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 2: lives two streets away from me. We live in Flatbush,

868
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 2: and for a month, they were conducting an a leegal

869
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 2: checkpoint right outside my window.

870
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: And every day I'm recording.

871
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: Every night I'm this, and I'm like, me and my

872
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: mentor are talking about this, and eventually we're like, we

873
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: just gon be two black.

874
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: Lawyers in this neighborhood and see it, and this is

875
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: what's happening.

876
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: It's like, let's sue, can you break to any legal checkpoint?

877
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: Like what are they checking for? Are these stopping and

878
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: frisking people or.

879
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 2: So what they've been what they were doing in Flatbush

880
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: for a month until I tweeted about it and then

881
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: they stopped immediately.

882
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: So every night for a month, the.

883
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: Police were they would wait until like two three in

884
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: the morning when they think people are like going to sleep,

885
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: and they would come and they would literally pull out

886
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: checkpoints like ciscar and they would just pull over every

887
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: black guye that drives by, every single black guy specifically.

888
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 3: I've been recorded.

889
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: Recording it for a month and the only reason I

890
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: didn't tweeted the videos was because I was like, it's

891
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 2: writing in front of my house and I'm like, okay,

892
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: let me, let me, let me tweet about this. And

893
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 2: then the minute I tweeted about it, the minute I

894
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: tweeted about it, checkpoint gone and I'm like, you know,

895
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: here's here's an unfortunate reality they do things like this.

896
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: And this is something I've realized just as a black

897
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: the difference between what my experiences what we're with the

898
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: landlords or police based on when I was in law

899
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: school versus being an attorney. It's very different the way

900
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: that they treat us, and they engage us as though

901
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: we have no power, because usually we don't. We don't,

902
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: so they treat us like we can do these things.

903
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter because they can do it over the

904
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 2: cover of night and there's nobody.

905
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 3: To check it.

906
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: So what I realized in that moment is like, oh,

907
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: that's messed up. It bothers me significantly that the only

908
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: reason y'all were going to do this every night, and

909
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: because even as illegal as it is, they did it

910
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 2: every single night for a month, and the only reason

911
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: they stop is because one black yall there happen to

912
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: have a lot of followers or lawyers say something and

913
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: they don't want the little bit of attention. And as

914
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 2: much as that upsets me, that's also what makes me realize, Okay,

915
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: if I can do that, and me and my mentork

916
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: can now say hey, let's go Sue, let's go request

917
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: documents whatever for Weddy, these checkpoints is supposed to be.

918
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: Imagine if we all have if we're all educated in

919
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: a particular kind of way, and the other ones of

920
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 2: us that are in our communities can point out, can

921
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: do this, can get involved, can do these things, that

922
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: does give us a lot more power. And I don't

923
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: mean the power. We cannot change it all on our own.

924
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: There's no individual one of us, and there's not even

925
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: us in totality. Black people just do not have that

926
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 2: power in this country. But we do have the power

927
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: to get more educated, to get more involved in where

928
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 2: we can demand as a collective wahere we can place

929
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: and what we call for from them because the picture.

930
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 3: We have to stop leaving it.

931
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: I think at sympathy because what happens is, you know,

932
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: you'll see with George Floyd and you'll see all these

933
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 2: people and all everybody join hands with you, like they're

934
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: so outraged by the problem.

935
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: But they're not outraged but a problem.

936
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: They're outraged by one symptom they saw, you know, that

937
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: video shocked their conscience. They'll tell you, oh, they're so

938
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 2: sadically proudered, are so sad. But then a post bail

939
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: reform opposed, you know, any efforts to decarce rate the

940
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: way the community is in, any of the things that

941
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: lead us to actually prevent these outcomes. So what I

942
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: think it becomes is let's educate each other differently, because

943
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 2: what we call for becomes differently.

944
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 3: Like I could easily be this person and be a prosecutor.

945
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: It'll be on the opposite and being terrible if I

946
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: didn't have a mentor who handed me Angela Davis right.

947
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: So I think that's what it becomes us to get

948
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: involved in our own communities and do our best to

949
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: shift our social consciousness to advocating towards the right things,

950
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: like hey, it's not good enough. I don't need you

951
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: to name the street after me. I don't need you

952
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: to do any of that. I need you to put

953
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: money into this community. The same way you want to

954
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 2: give ten point six almost as we give ten point

955
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: four billion dollars to NYPD, and they're also on track

956
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: to spend over eight hundred and twenty million dollars in overtime.

957
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: And we have thirty five thousand NYPD officers and they

958
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: hired in a thousand more, but they cut money on education.

959
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm in this space of like thinking about

960
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: our communities and I'm thinking about all these kids who

961
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: are who have to grow up in these situations when

962
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: are criminalized. And I'm thinking about cops and who are

963
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: working in the system who are like, the system is corrupt,

964
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: but everyone in that system is necessarily corrupt.

965
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 3: Right, Like no, but it doesn't matter.

966
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: So it's like what to do, what to do? And

967
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: this is an ongoing conversation. But I love the idea

968
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: of the education piece because I think even me coming

969
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: in with like, isn't crime higher? Isn't it a result

970
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: of bail reform? And knowing that the data even as

971
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: I look at the data, that there's conflicting data and

972
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: we always have to check our sources. So becoming I

973
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 1: think the biggest piece is becoming more educated about what's

974
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: going on, so that we can have accurate information to

975
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: mobilize and to mobilize our communities. So that feels like

976
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: a big takeaway from this conversation that we can give

977
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: the listeners.

978
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think something hopeful is to remember is

979
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: that you know, Audrey Lord said it, but there there

980
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: are no new pains and there are no new ideas,

981
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: just new ways to make them felt. And I think

982
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: it's sad, but it also something that's our benefit. The

983
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: reality is our history and our thinkers and our leaders

984
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 2: and our ideas have always been suppressed, right, Audrey Lord,

985
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: Angelie Davis. The other day I posted a Tony Morrison

986
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: video and someone on one of my followers real life

987
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: said to me, who is this great person?

988
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: I'm like the girl they don't want us to know

989
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: around the same and abbit. They don't want to.

990
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: They don't want us to know. But the reality is

991
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: that we can tell them.

992
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: We can tell them, we can we have new ways.

993
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: It's out them.

994
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: I have to end with my last question, and my

995
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: last question for every podcast is what else is true?

996
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: And it comes from my therapy and the idea of both.

997
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: And even when the world is on fire, even when

998
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: things are very difficult, that is true. But there's also

999
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: something else that's true in my body. You know, if

1000
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: there's pain in one part of my body, there's one

1001
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: part of my body where it's neutral and positive impact

1002
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 1: can focus on that part of my body. I can

1003
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: shift my nervous system. I can reregulate my body. So

1004
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: for you today, oh lie me, oh Lauren? What else

1005
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: is true?

1006
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: What else is true? That I'm going to go see

1007
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 2: Beyonce in July because I'm blessed.

1008
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: You got your tickets already, I brought where is she

1009
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: here in New York?

1010
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: I'm going to Chicago. You know, I got to get

1011
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 2: to Texas where you could get them.

1012
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: I saw Formation for the first time in Chicago because

1013
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know where I was going to be in

1014
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. So I was like, girl. So I went

1015
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: to Chicago, and then I moved to la and then

1016
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: I'd done the Ivy part campaign and she invited me

1017
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 1: and I got to see Formation twice.

1018
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 3: Yes, no, one won't be able to talk to me

1019
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: no more.

1020
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: If I was you, I would talk to nobody no more.

1021
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm so brand new.

1022
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: Oh my god, my bio would say, be high approved,

1023
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: speak to me, girl.

1024
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: We're both strong and be high deeply thank you. It's amazing,

1025
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: olim Oh Lauren. Sometimes a person comes along and they're

1026
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: just so charismatic and smart and insightful and passionate and

1027
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: they just have something. I just think she's a superstar.

1028
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: I think she's a superstar. What was interesting for me

1029
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: doing research about this is like finding statistics that said that,

1030
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, there was a relationship between bail reform and crime,

1031
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: and then checking the source and being like, Okay, this

1032
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: source is corporate funded, like right wing institution, and then

1033
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: like checking another source that had some similar information but

1034
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: very different information, and so being willing to cross reference

1035
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: sources is so important, and like looking into the political

1036
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: potential political bias of a source, and most most media

1037
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 1: is politically biased. If they say they're not, they're lying

1038
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: to you. We all have our biases and they're cooked

1039
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 1: in what we decide to cover, what we decide to

1040
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: talk about. That's bias. So anybody saying that they're not biased,

1041
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: then don't believe them. And it's double triple check sources. Yeah,

1042
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: that's a big thing for me coming out of this,

1043
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: just like misinformation and just like triple checking sources for me,

1044
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: public safety as a transperson, as a woman, as a

1045
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: black person, I have never felt safe in the world,

1046
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: and most of us, I think we're all hardwired in

1047
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: our nervous systems to crave safety. Much of what we

1048
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: do when we're in flight or freeze is about, like us,

1049
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: feeling safe and needing to feel safe, and a lot

1050
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: of us don't feel safe right now for a lot

1051
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: of reasons. Do we not feel safe because of propaganda,

1052
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: because of misinformation that we've been fed, or do we

1053
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: not feel safe because of the material conditions of the

1054
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: world around us? And then how do we regulate and

1055
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: find spaces within ourselves where we can feel safe in

1056
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: the face of all of these challenges. Thank you so

1057
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: much for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Please rate, review, subscribe,

1058
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: and share with everyone you know. You can find me

1059
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Laverne Cox and on

1060
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Please check the show

1061
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 1: notes for resources and a lot more information on this subject.

1062
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox

1063
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

1064
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1065
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.