1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Odd Thoughts podcast. 2 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Allaway and I'm Joe wisnal Joe, Do you 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: know the one thing that I love more than finance 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: and markets? Um? Uh, I'm curious what you'll say I 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: got to say about yourself, but I'm just gonna say no, Okay, 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: that's the safe answer. All right. So I really like history. 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: One of the things that I like about this particular podcast, 8 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: other than the fact that I get the chance to 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: talk with you for twenty minutes every week, is the 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: fact that we can go back in time and every 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: once in a while kind of delve into the history 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: of finance and markets. I love the history of financial markets. 13 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: I find, you know, it's kind of like with language, 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: how etymology helped us understand certain aspects of the present 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: better by seeing how these words evolved. I think there's 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: a very clear analogy with the history of finance and economics. 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: Seeing how some various institutions evolved can help us, uh 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: understand their structures better today. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: So what if I told you that on today's podcast 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: we are going to have an almost perfect synthesis of 21 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: history and finance and markets. I would tell you I 22 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: am very excited for this conversation. Okay, alright, so am I. 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: So today we are actually going to talk with a 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: woman who is an archivist for the Royal Bank of Scotland. 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but I was kind 26 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: of surprised to hear that RBS um as the bank 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: is known, actually has an archive at all. I would 28 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: not have guessed that at all. I mean, it sort 29 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: of doesn't surprise to me. Maybe the banks have libraries 30 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: and that there's some history stored at them, but the 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: idea of a his Dorian or an archivist at the 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: bank sort of whose job it is to um, you know, 33 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: collect the bank's history, is uh, not something I would 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: have guessed existed. Yeah, And I have to say, if 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: you go on RBS's website and take a look at 36 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: some of the items that they have in their archive. 37 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about this later in the show, 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: but they have some really fascinating, fascinating things, you know, 39 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: things like customer ledgers that were kept during the Great 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: Plague or to create Fire of London. Um old sort 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: of filing systems that the bank used hundreds of years ago, 42 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: and I have to say, this is one of Britain's 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: oldest banks. Uh, so it's going to be really really 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: interesting to hear from her. Well, I can't wait, So 45 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: let's get started, all right. So our guest for today 46 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: is Ruth Read. She's the head of Archives and Art 47 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: for the Royal Bank of Scotland. Ruth, thank you so 48 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: much are joining us, and these two thank you. So 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe just to begin, could you describe for us exactly 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: what RBS's archive is, what it looks like, where it's kept, 51 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: and what your role in terms of being an archivist 52 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: actually is, because I can't imagine there are many people 53 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: out there who have that job. Yes, So to start 54 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: with physically what it looks like and where it is. 55 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: We're in a pretty anonymous looking warehouse on the western 56 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: edges of Edinburgh. From outside, you'd never really guessed that 57 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: it was a historical archive. Um, and what we're keeping 58 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: inside is the historical records of the Royal Bank of 59 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: Scotland groups. So that includes quite a lot of present 60 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: day banks. That's the Royal Bank of Scotland itself, but 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: also NAT West, which is a major name. We've got 62 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: some private banks all sorts of different businesses and actually 63 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: more than two hundred historic banks that have come together 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: over the centuries to make up those present day names. 65 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: These are not a national records that the bank needs 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: to keep to do business now. Um, these are the 67 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: very few records that we've decided to keep for ever 68 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: because they tell us who we've been and therefore who 69 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: we are. My job in the archives could probably be 70 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: summarized as capturing, protecting, and using the history of the 71 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: bank and the historical records that pumped in that. So 72 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: are these items in the archives things that the bank 73 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: had held for a long time and then at some 74 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: point that, oh, we should formalize this in an archive, 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: or did the banks say we should have like sort 76 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: of an archive of history or banking history and then 77 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: go about finding the items that would make up that archive. 78 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: There's there's a big change that happened probably in sort 79 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: of mid late twentieth century. So the things that have 80 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: survived from the eighteenth nineteenth century, yes, you're absolutely right. 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: Those are things that pretty much either survived by accident 82 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: or survived because it was so very obvious that they 83 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: were important to business. And it's really only in the 84 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: past forty to fifty years that companies have become more 85 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: self conscious about needing to choose the right things and 86 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: keep the right things. And that's become really important as 87 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: to get into the present age, because now that records 88 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: are digital, things don't survive by accident. You have to 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: be deliberate about it. So is it unusual for a 90 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: bank to kind of keep its own historic archive in 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: in this manner, Like if we went over to Goldman 92 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: Sachs or to Deutsche Bank or HSBC, would they have 93 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: a similar thing in place or is this unique to RBS. No, 94 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: I don't know about all of them. You would certainly 95 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: find a very good and impressive archives at HSBC, and 96 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: certainly all of the major British banks have got archives, 97 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: and actually a lot of companies in general, supermarkets, drinks, companies, 98 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: all sorts of businesses do have archives. In light of that, 99 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the things that exist in 100 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: the RBS archives and why they've been and one of 101 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: what and what they tell us. So one of the 102 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: things that you have is a ledger that was kept 103 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: from the Great Fire of London in the sixteen hundreds. 104 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: What is that is from the sixteen sixties. What does 105 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: it tell us? What does it what does a bank 106 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: ledger from about four years ago even tell us? That's 107 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: a really nice document to have because that goes all 108 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: the way back to the very early history of a 109 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: company called Child and Company, which is still exists as 110 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: one of our banks today and is said to be 111 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: the oldest name in British banking that's still trading. So 112 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: it's really lovely to have some of those early customer records. 113 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: And if we're looking at the Great Fire of London period, 114 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: it's wonderful to see quite how business was managing in 115 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: unbelievably difficult circumstances. You know, London had in sixty sixty 116 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: five it had suffered from this plague, and then you 117 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: get to sixty and sixty six and there's this terrible 118 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: fire which literally stopped just before get team to the 119 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: business premises of this bank, and you see that business 120 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: surviving and coping through all those difficulties, and of course 121 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: what it's telling us is what was going on for 122 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: all of the customers of that bank at that time. 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: So I've spent an inordinate amount of time browsing the 124 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: items that you have in your collection, so rather than 125 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: ask you about some of the ones that strike my 126 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: interest the most. I wonder do you have some favorites 127 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: that you could maybe point as to I have hundreds 128 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: of favorites, and of my favorites, i'll tell you something 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: different every week. Um. But I guess one that I 130 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: love very much is we have some field service postcards 131 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: that were written by one of our members of staff 132 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: who was away on military service during the First World War. UM. 133 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: So these were written between nineteen sixteen and nineteen and 134 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: at that time, because soldier's letters were very heavily censored, 135 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: they couldn't write anything they liked. So they'd have these 136 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: post cards and they could just tick a box that 137 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: said I'm fine, and it was a way of letting 138 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: people back home know that everything was all right and 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: they were you know face um. And we have several 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: of these and the archives that were sent by a 141 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: man called Samuel McKnight who had worked at the Royal 142 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: Bank of Scotland's head office. And it's wonderful to have them. 143 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: But what I love most about them is the story 144 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: about how they were found. They were found by one 145 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: of my predecessors in the nineties in the head office 146 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: building wrapped up in a little piece of paper that 147 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: said something like these cards were placed here by John 148 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: Smith's messenger in the hopes that perhaps long after this 149 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: dreadful war, the name of one may again be honored 150 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: who was loved by all. And he did that just 151 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: after the First World War. He obviously had these cards 152 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: and he wanted future generations to remember. And I took 153 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: for me that summarizes what's so great about archives, because 154 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: because of what he did, I remember Samuel mcnight's name, 155 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: and now because as an archive here you know his 156 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: name as well. That is really cool that you have 157 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: that stuff, you know. I mentioned in the intro that 158 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 1: I thought looking at the history of banking and the 159 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: sort of artifacts of historical banking might help us understand 160 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: the current the present tense And of course I think 161 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: probably a lot of people when they think about a bank, 162 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: they imagine maybe a vault or something like that where 163 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: their money is, and then they go to the bank 164 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: and then their share of the money has taken out. 165 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: But as many of us know, that's really not how 166 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: bank works or banks work at all, and that essentially 167 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: banks are mostly digital and they're most of our money 168 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: exists on a spreadsheet and so you know, just it's 169 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: just sells, you know, numbers in a cell. And so 170 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: looking back at some of the documents on your website 171 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: and people should check it out at Heritage Archives dot 172 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: RBS dot com a lot of that. It's basically the 173 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: same story that the fundamental aspect of the bank is 174 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: not the money that is kept there, but the written 175 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: down records of what people are entitled to. I think 176 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: that's right. Um it certainly look at the essence of 177 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: what banking is, that business of putting things that you 178 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: value somewhere safe and keeping them safe and being able 179 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: to trust. You know, there's an awful lot of crust 180 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: which is necessary for banking to rum. So that's what 181 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: I love about archives and business archives is you see 182 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: these footprints of people all through time using different technologies. 183 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: They used what they had available at the time, but 184 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: they're doing the same thing. So in terms of the 185 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: lessons that we can glean from those records, you know, 186 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: things that show who owes which person what, what are 187 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: some of the applications of the archive and has the 188 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: archive ever contributed to any interesting research or interesting historical 189 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: conclusions to your knowledge, Well, we're open to members of 190 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 1: the public. So academic research has come in very frequently 191 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: to work on projects, and they are often about financial history, 192 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: about the history of lending structures, for example, and how 193 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: they have evolved over time. But also there might be 194 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: um garden historians or furniture historians can come in and 195 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: use the records to find that footprint is something they're researching. 196 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: It's quite nice about business records that those are quite solid, 197 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: factual based records compared to somebody's diary, which is always 198 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: you've got to think about what that person's agenda was 199 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: in a different way from when it's simple accounting records. 200 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: But also ways that we use the archives are a 201 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: lot more intangible, so they might be something about building 202 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: colleague engagement, helping our colleagues to feel proud of our business, 203 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: helping them to feel the importance of doing a good 204 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: job for our customers by having that weight of history 205 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: and understanding how many generations there are behind us who've 206 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: been doing this job all this time. I wanted to 207 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: pick up on that sort of heritage point because I 208 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: did notice that one of the items listed in the 209 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: archive is a letter from someone who has employed wid 210 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: at the bank in the early nineteen hundreds or actually 211 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: for most of the century, who was an Olympic runner Um, 212 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: And he actually ran in the Olympics that were made 213 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: famous by the Chariots of Fire movie. And it's interesting 214 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: if you read the letter from him, he's responding to 215 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: congratulations from his employer at the bank, where they recognize 216 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: his running achievement. Um. But the Olympic aspect of it 217 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: is almost um, it's almost uh, what's the word subordinate 218 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: to the fact that he works at the bank. Um. 219 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: You know, the fact that he works at the bank 220 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: is something to be proud of. Do you think the 221 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: role of banks and bankers in society has changed over 222 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: the past hundred years or so, given the you know, 223 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: the events of two thousand and eight and things like that. 224 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: Of course it changes at the time, and of course 225 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: where at a point at the moment where banker's reputation 226 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: isn't particularly high, and there are very good reasons for that. 227 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: And that's actually something that again I think the archived 228 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: brings value because it hasn't always been easy to work 229 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: for a bank in the last few years. You know, 230 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: we see the things that people say about us, and 231 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 1: we know that there's a lot of justification in it, 232 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: and having that three year long history or longer which 233 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: talks about good things bankers have done. It gives people 234 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: a context that I hope and think helps people get 235 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: out of bed in the morning and come to work 236 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: and do a good job as a banker. Yeah, I'm 237 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: looking at another thing that Tracy had discovered on the website, 238 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: This letter from our Florence Nightingale talking about a way 239 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: for soldiers to send money home more effectively. You know, 240 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: a classic example of a financial institutions the role that 241 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: they play in society. But what is you know that's 242 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, we sort of take it for granted, this 243 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: idea that if I want to send money to Tracy 244 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: right now, you would be a little bit of a pain, 245 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: but I could probably do it without too much issues. 246 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: But it's sort of mind boggling to think how people 247 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: would have sent money across borders two hundred years ago. 248 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: What are some of the interesting technologies that you we 249 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: discover when you look back at the archives about sort 250 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: of solving these really difficult problems. You see it changing 251 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: all the time, and you can see banks trying to 252 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: to use the new dodges that are emerging and bring 253 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: them in. One example I think of that's relatively recent 254 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: is from the eighties when our bank No West was 255 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: wanting to bring in a telephone banking service for the 256 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: first time. Um, so you could you know, you could 257 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: phone up and you could press buttons on your phone 258 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: to choose whether you wanted a balance or to make 259 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: a payment, all of those things. But this being certainly 260 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people in Britain still have the type 261 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: of phone that you had to turn a dial on 262 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: to get the I remember that. So, Um, they didn't 263 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: work with this tone, with with this kind of button 264 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: pressing technology. So the bank introduced this little thing that 265 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: was like a small calculator that had the buttons on 266 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: and you could hold it up to the mouthpiece of 267 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: your phone and then press those buttons and it would 268 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: make the right beats to go down the line to 269 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: make the phone banking work. And I really like that 270 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: insight into a moment where a good technology was nearly 271 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: there but not quite so the bank had to find 272 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: some intermediary method of making it work. I remember their 273 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: technology only because my grandfather was a criminal defense lawyer 274 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: and he only had rotary phones and when he would 275 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: need to place calls to his clients who were in jail. 276 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: He had to go through a tone operating system, and 277 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: so he had one of those handheld devices that mimicked 278 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: the tone of the one through zero keypad. So yeah, 279 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: quite a breakthrough. You might be one of the as 280 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: people have spoken to. I haven't thought about that in 281 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: a long time. Um, well, I think Joe brings up 282 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,479 Speaker 1: a really good point. There has been so much technological 283 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: advancement in the fields of banking and finance. You know, 284 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: a hundred years from now, assuming that RBS is still 285 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: running an archive, what is it going to look like, 286 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: because you know it's easy to gather Well, it's not easy, 287 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: but the idea of gathering old historical documents into one 288 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: place is a common one. How do you start to 289 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: tell the story of digital finance. Well, for one thing, 290 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: you can take in digital documents. Most of what we 291 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: take in now is actually taken in electronically rather than 292 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: as physical documents, so that is certainly no impediment. And 293 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: actually the same things that we want to document are 294 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: still done. People still have to meet together and talk 295 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: to each other and say are we going to do this? 296 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: How are we going to do it? And they have 297 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: to prepare for it. So in fact, we're not keeping 298 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: transactional records. We're not interested in the kind of it happening. 299 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: We're interested in why and how and how they make 300 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: it happen, and all of that stuff will happen the same. 301 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: It might be that it's an electronic file rather than 302 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 1: a paper file, but that's not intellectually different from our 303 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: point of view. You know something that I'm interested in 304 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: in terms of history of finance technology is a tally sticks. 305 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: And you mentioned that there was the fire in London 306 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: or we talked about that in the sixteen hundred, But 307 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: is it is it true? Is it like in the 308 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: eight hundreds that a big fire was caused in Parliament 309 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: by the burning of a bunch of these sticks that 310 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: were used hundreds of years earlier to keep track of credit? 311 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: Am I making that up? I feel like I've heard 312 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: something about that one. No, you're absolutely right, um. But 313 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: the tally sticks were used for keeping track of debts. 314 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: When somebody borrowed money, there would be a tally stick 315 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: and they would split it down the middle and to 316 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: borrow and the lender would get a half each so 317 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: that you could read in them. It was a way 318 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: that you could track debts, uh in a world where 319 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: lots of people weren't literate apart from anything else. So 320 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: there were thousands of thousands of these stored in the 321 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: House of Parliaments in London, and I think they stopped 322 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: using them in the early nineteenth century, and somebody, I 323 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: assume you could possibly say he was an archivist in 324 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: that he was responsible for looking after them, decided to 325 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: clear out some space by burning them, uh. And the 326 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: fired that out of control and did indeed burn down 327 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: the House of Parliament. That's why the House of the 328 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: Parliament we have now are a Victorian building, because that's 329 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: the replacement. A good lesson to all subsequent archivists not 330 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: to just burn, not to just burn their stuff for 331 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 1: space for storage reasons. Ruth, I want to ask you 332 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: one more question. You know, when you go over the 333 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: entirety of RBS's archive, is there one particular item that 334 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: to you is kind of most important when it comes 335 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: to the history of the bank or the history of 336 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: banking overall, something that kind of hints that maybe an 337 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: important transformation that took place in either of the company 338 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: or the industry. I think it would be really hard 339 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: for me not to choose the Founding Charter of the 340 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: Royal Bank of Scotland from seven. So that's the company's 341 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: birth certificate. That's where it all starts as far as 342 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: the Royal Bank of Scotland goes. And I think why 343 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: I would really pick that out is not so much 344 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: for the document itself, but my experience is showing it 345 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: to colleagues when they come to visit the archive and 346 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: I showed them this document and by far the most 347 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: common question they asked me is can I touch it? 348 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: Because they want to make that connection with the past. 349 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: Are they allowed to touch it? They are allowed to 350 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: touch it at the edge, as long as they don't 351 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: touch the ink, because to go away with with a 352 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: feeling of having touched the past and having been inspired 353 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: by that. So I think if a document can do 354 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that job for them, then I'm really glad to see 355 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: it's still working three years after it was drawn up. 356 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: That's very cool, uh. I like the idea of people 357 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: touching the document is a direct link to history. Ruth 358 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: read the archivist at the Royal Bank of Scotland. Really 359 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: cool discussion. Your website is awesome and hopefully one day 360 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: me and Tracy can come visit and we could do 361 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: a long thing and go through all of what you have. 362 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: But I really appreciate you joining us on the odd 363 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: Loads podcast. Great, thank you, Joe. I love that conversation. 364 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: And I have to confess I'm still looking at the 365 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: Harveys Archive website and right now I'm looking at a 366 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: picture of a bank manager's hat from the nineteen fifties, 367 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: and all I can think is, this is what George 368 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: Banks would have worn in UH. Mary Poppins, you remember 369 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: that I'm looking. I'm on the website too, I'm looking 370 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: at the UH and this is another one that you 371 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: found earlier, the spike file, like this gigantic iron spike 372 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: that they used to put papers over, just essentially glorified 373 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: or a sort of a primitive filing cabinet. But no, 374 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: I really like that conversation as well, and I do 375 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: think everyone should check out their website Heritage Archives dot 376 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: RBS dot com because it's uh, it's you know, it's 377 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: a great example of how banking is widely different and 378 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: also exactly the exactly the same that essentially, you know, 379 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: as we were saying, a bank is a spreadsheet or 380 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: mostly something digital and a bank used to be pieces 381 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: of paper on an old iron spike. But though what 382 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: really matters to the bank is not necessarily what they 383 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: have an a vault or anything, but what they the 384 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: history that they have recorded. Yeah, I agree with that. 385 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: I just wonder that, you know, as things become more 386 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: electronic and as they become more digital. Um. And we 387 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: did just discuss this with Ruth, but I wonder if 388 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: some of that that tangentity kind of gets lost, and 389 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: if finance becomes more and more abstract and kind of 390 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: more unwieldy as a result. And I also wonder, like, 391 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: because I like history and I like antiques, um, I 392 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: think there's something about human nature where we actually want 393 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: to go out and as Ruth was saying about the 394 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: original bank charter, you kind of want to go out 395 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: and connect with the past, and the easiest way of 396 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: doing that is seeing or touching or interacting with something 397 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: that's actually old. And I just wonder if you know, 398 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: seeing a digital ledger is going to have that same effect. No, 399 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: that's a that's a really good point. So it's like, 400 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: even though we know that money is kind of this 401 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: imaginary thing, there's still some value in a thing, even 402 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: if it's just a book or a piece of paper 403 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: or a filing cabinet that we can see, and so 404 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: it's really going to be like this weird thing when 405 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: that really just doesn't exist in any formula, and it's 406 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: purely like, yep, this thing in the this thing on 407 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: the web, or this thing and spreadsheet is really all 408 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: there is and there is not it's not the representation 409 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: of anything. Joe, I can see you're about to turn 410 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: this into another What is Money? Podcast? I can feel 411 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: it coming. Let's yeah, well, of course we'll we'll have 412 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: to let's revisit this one in ten years and we 413 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: can ask Ruth what she saved from the year seventeen. 414 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: Oh that's a good idea. All right, all right, I'm 415 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: marking my calendar. Sarah, our producer, I'm reminding her right 416 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: now to uh schedule that one seven. But in the meantime, 417 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: this has been another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 418 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at 419 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: the Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on Twitter at 420 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. And you can follow Sarah on Twitter at 421 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,479 Speaker 1: Sarah pat with two Teas. Thanks for listening.