WEBVTT - Political Polarization is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.876 Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. So these are 0:00:24.876 --> 0:00:28.716 people who are seditionists. They don't accept the legitimacy of 0:00:28.716 --> 0:00:31.316 the state, of the government, of the institutions, and they 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:35.116 would like to overthrow them. The United States is facing 0:00:35.116 --> 0:00:38.956 a challenge we haven't confronted since the Civil War. On 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:43.396 January sixth, we experienced a physical assault against our democracy, 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:48.116 and a significant segment of society continues to support the assault, 0:00:48.476 --> 0:00:51.716 not our democracy. This is too many people to wish away, 0:00:51.756 --> 0:00:54.716 it's too many people to shun. It's even too many 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:57.436 people to cancel. So what do we do about this 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:01.916 extreme polarization? How do we live alongside people who reject 0:01:01.916 --> 0:01:04.596 our system of government? How can we get back to 0:01:04.676 --> 0:01:09.356 healthier kinds of political disagreement? Here, it's solvable. We're going 0:01:09.356 --> 0:01:12.636 to take a deeper look at the problem of American polarization. 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:15.436 As the fits the approach of the show. We're going 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:18.236 to have a series of conversations focused on solutions and 0:01:18.356 --> 0:01:22.316 making things better. Our question is what works to reduce 0:01:22.436 --> 0:01:26.436 extremism and division in terms of finding common ground and 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:30.276 building bridges, in terms of redesigning social media, and in 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:34.396 terms of political leadership Last week, we heard Ann Applebaum 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:38.676 talk to Juan Manuel Santo's about the process of reconciliation 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:43.836 with former guerrillas after Columbia's long, horrific civil war. Today, 0:01:43.876 --> 0:01:46.836 I'm going to talk with Anne herself. She's a Pulitzer 0:01:46.876 --> 0:01:50.356 Prize winning historian an expert on the former Soviet Bloc. 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:54.036 Anne has been looking at vulnerable democracies around the world, 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:56.836 and she has some ideas about what has and hasn't 0:01:56.876 --> 0:01:59.676 worked in other countries. This will sound a little strange, 0:02:00.196 --> 0:02:03.996 but another really interesting example of a place that depolarized 0:02:04.436 --> 0:02:08.356 is actually Canada. So some solutions may be closer than 0:02:08.396 --> 0:02:12.356 we realize. I'm Anne Applebaum. I'm one of the hosts 0:02:12.396 --> 0:02:15.396 of the Solvable podcast. I'm a staff writer for The Atlantic, 0:02:15.676 --> 0:02:23.516 and I believe that political polarization is solvable. Hi Anne, 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:31.236 Hi Jacob. It's clear that we are in unprecedented territory 0:02:31.316 --> 0:02:34.476 here in the United States, and I wanted to kind 0:02:34.476 --> 0:02:37.636 of start the conversation just by asking you to be 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:42.436 as precise as possible in naming this phenomenon and possibly 0:02:42.476 --> 0:02:45.396 comparing it to other places. Do you call it a 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:48.356 breakdown to democracy? Do you call it polarization? What are 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:52.516 we living through right now. Polarization is clearly, you know, 0:02:52.636 --> 0:02:55.476 a good word to use, but other words have been 0:02:55.556 --> 0:03:00.316 used in the past, division, breaking up of political unity, 0:03:00.436 --> 0:03:03.876 leading towards civil war. I think the more interesting question 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:07.956 is what to call the group of people who were 0:03:07.996 --> 0:03:11.036 at the Capitol and genre the sixth and those in 0:03:11.076 --> 0:03:14.396 the country who support them, because this is not the 0:03:14.436 --> 0:03:17.556 same thing as the Republican Party, it's not the same 0:03:17.596 --> 0:03:21.476 thing as conservatives. This is, in fact not a conservative group. 0:03:21.476 --> 0:03:24.316 It's a radical group. And it's also very clear to 0:03:24.396 --> 0:03:28.076 understand what they were doing there. They were not Republicans 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:33.676 attacking Democrats. They were actually attacking Congress itself, the institution. 0:03:33.716 --> 0:03:37.236 They were trying to prevent Congress from recognizing and naming 0:03:37.276 --> 0:03:41.436 the next president. This was actually an anti institutional, anti 0:03:41.516 --> 0:03:46.036 systemic group, which is not something we're accustomed to in 0:03:46.116 --> 0:03:49.756 American history, at least not since the Civil War. But 0:03:49.836 --> 0:03:52.516 it is something that you can see in other times 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:56.516 and places. You can see it, for example, in Northern Ireland, 0:03:56.556 --> 0:03:59.476 where there was during the era of the Troubles, there 0:03:59.596 --> 0:04:01.956 was a group of people who lived in Northern Ireland 0:04:01.996 --> 0:04:05.876 who didn't accept the legitimate government of Northern Ireland and 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:10.116 became terrorists or supporters of terror because they wanted to 0:04:10.156 --> 0:04:14.276 overthrow it. You can look at a country like Columbia 0:04:14.356 --> 0:04:18.316 where you see an insurgency that fought for fifty years, 0:04:18.756 --> 0:04:21.516 living in the jungle and living off kidnapping and drug 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:24.796 dealing because they didn't accept the legitimacy of the government. 0:04:25.036 --> 0:04:27.636 And although those are more extreme versions than what we have, 0:04:28.076 --> 0:04:29.876 that's really what we're talking about. And so then the 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:32.596 question is whether it's the best word to use, insurgency 0:04:32.716 --> 0:04:36.316 or insurrectionist. Some people have had an argument about whether 0:04:36.436 --> 0:04:38.956 to say fascist, and of course there are ways in 0:04:38.996 --> 0:04:42.396 which this group resembles fascism of the nineteen thirties. I 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:45.916 don't think that's a useful term because it conjures up 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:48.436 all kinds of other things, and you know, we're not 0:04:48.516 --> 0:04:50.996 talking about mass murder or anything like that, and I 0:04:50.996 --> 0:04:54.076 feel it's a distracting term. And the term I settled 0:04:54.116 --> 0:04:57.276 on in a couple of things I've written recently is 0:04:57.276 --> 0:05:01.636 actually seditionists. So these are people who are seditionists. They 0:05:01.836 --> 0:05:04.956 don't accept the you know, the legitimacy of the state, 0:05:04.996 --> 0:05:07.556 of the government, of the institutions, and they would like 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:11.076 to overthrow them. So then the question is how the 0:05:11.156 --> 0:05:13.996 rest of us deal with that. Even in that and 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:16.636 I agree that's a that's a useful term here, and 0:05:16.676 --> 0:05:19.916 I think seditionists rather than secessionists, because these people are 0:05:19.956 --> 0:05:22.636 not trying to start their own country or break away 0:05:22.636 --> 0:05:27.076 into too a different political body as in the Confederacy 0:05:27.196 --> 0:05:30.916 during the Civil War. But even that term, seditionists can 0:05:30.996 --> 0:05:35.916 include everyone from the fairly large section of the population 0:05:36.436 --> 0:05:39.156 that will, in response to Paul, say they think the 0:05:39.196 --> 0:05:43.196 election was stolen, a much smaller segment of the population 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:46.916 that would support violence, a smaller proportion than that that 0:05:46.996 --> 0:05:50.516 would be violent. And then maybe even within that, you 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:54.236 know this very strange fantasy land of the of the 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:57.916 QAnon people, which is more like, you know, ac cult 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:01.836 within the seditionists. Would you would you describe it that 0:06:01.876 --> 0:06:05.156 way in terms of those kind of concentric circles. Yes, 0:06:05.436 --> 0:06:11.036 Although what interests me is one particular group, namely, I'm 0:06:11.076 --> 0:06:14.036 interested in the people who sympathized with the storming of 0:06:14.076 --> 0:06:16.756 the capital. In other words, you know, there is a 0:06:16.796 --> 0:06:19.636 group of people who think Trump probably won the election, 0:06:19.716 --> 0:06:22.676 or anyway somehow the election was unfair. But then there's 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:27.196 a narrower group of people who actually think the system 0:06:27.276 --> 0:06:31.996 should be overthrown. And I say narrow, it's not that narrow. 0:06:32.316 --> 0:06:34.996 One poll that was done pretty soon after January sixth 0:06:35.316 --> 0:06:37.916 showed something like twenty percent I think it's twenty one 0:06:37.956 --> 0:06:42.076 percent of Americans said they supported that they supported the insurrection, 0:06:42.756 --> 0:06:46.236 even assuming that not all those people pay that much 0:06:46.276 --> 0:06:48.956 attention to politics, and some of them have probably since 0:06:48.996 --> 0:06:51.036 then changed their minds. And so even if we say 0:06:51.076 --> 0:06:53.876 it's ten percent, you know, ten percent of the country, 0:06:54.036 --> 0:06:58.076 that's a very large number who don't think that our 0:06:58.116 --> 0:07:01.516 political institutions work, who don't see any point in cooperating 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:04.596 with them, who presumably don't see much point in voting 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:07.996 or in participating in normal politics, and they would support 0:07:08.036 --> 0:07:11.716 efforts to undermine them. That's not a problem that we've 0:07:11.716 --> 0:07:15.756 had in recent history. So I guess the question you 0:07:15.836 --> 0:07:18.916 get to right away is take that twenty one percent 0:07:19.036 --> 0:07:22.476 or whatever it is. Where do we fight them, Where 0:07:22.476 --> 0:07:25.076 do we ignore them? How do we deal with them? 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:29.596 So the lessons from countries that have had an experience 0:07:29.636 --> 0:07:32.236 like this, So countries again that have had an insurgency 0:07:32.356 --> 0:07:35.996 or a terrorist movement within their you know, within their borders, 0:07:36.636 --> 0:07:40.116 very often the things that you think will work like it, 0:07:40.396 --> 0:07:42.476 wouldn't it be so great if we all got together 0:07:42.516 --> 0:07:45.836 and just debated it all out? Their number of charities 0:07:45.836 --> 0:07:48.836 in the US that actually there's a famous one called 0:07:48.876 --> 0:07:51.356 braver Angels that brings people together, you know, Blue and 0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:54.276 Red team people together in rooms and has them argue 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:57.996 or right. I mean, most of that, while maybe it's 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:01.236 you know, useful for a few people, is actually pointless 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:03.956 because when you have people who see the world through 0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:06.716 such completely different lenses, you will not get them to 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:11.236 agree on politics and anything existential. If you get them 0:08:11.236 --> 0:08:14.436 in a room together, much more useful. And again this 0:08:14.596 --> 0:08:17.036 is counterintuitive and it's not a solution that lots of 0:08:17.036 --> 0:08:20.396 people like, at least when they first encounter it. Is 0:08:20.476 --> 0:08:23.956 it's much better to change the subject. In other words, 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:27.716 get people to work together, to do projects together, and 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:31.916 do things together that are constructive, but without talking about 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:36.636 or discussing the very the existential issues that divide us. 0:08:36.996 --> 0:08:39.156 And so when this has been done in towns in 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:42.956 Northern Ireland, it means something like, you know, the town 0:08:43.076 --> 0:08:45.876 builds a community center, or they build a road, or 0:08:45.956 --> 0:08:50.876 they organize a theater festival and members from both communities 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:54.676 participate and while they're participating, they're talking about the road 0:08:55.156 --> 0:08:57.876 or the community center, and they're not talking about who 0:08:57.916 --> 0:09:00.876 should be in charge of Ireland Northern Ireland, should it 0:09:00.916 --> 0:09:04.236 be Ireland or Great Britain. I can imagine, for example, 0:09:04.596 --> 0:09:07.236 in the US, a way you could. I mean, for example, 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:11.076 we need to have secure at state capitals. State capitals 0:09:11.076 --> 0:09:13.996 have been the site of some violent protests recently, So 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:15.836 a useful thing to do would be to have a 0:09:15.916 --> 0:09:19.316 meeting where you've got members of the different communities from 0:09:19.316 --> 0:09:22.316 the far right and the far left and mainstream politics, 0:09:22.356 --> 0:09:25.276 and you've got them together and said, let's think about 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:29.276 how we create safety at our around the Ohio State Capital. 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:31.996 They're not focused on the things they're protesting about. They're 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:35.836 focusing on how they create security at the Ohio State Capital. 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:38.476 And that doesn't mean they hate each other any less, 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:41.196 but it does mean that the following day, when there 0:09:41.196 --> 0:09:44.236 are demonstrations there, they might not kill each other. You know, 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.196 the goal is prevention of violence, and the goal is 0:09:47.596 --> 0:09:52.076 living alongside one another even when we don't agree. But 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:55.236 don't we need some sense that this was an extraordinary 0:09:55.276 --> 0:09:59.396 event and that the people who supported it need to 0:09:59.396 --> 0:10:02.036 be made accountable. For it and need to realize that 0:10:02.076 --> 0:10:05.356 what they did was not acceptable. I mean in South Africa, 0:10:05.396 --> 0:10:09.116 for example, you know, there was the Truth and Conciliation Commission, 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:12.876 and in post communist societies, you know, there was certainly 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:16.996 a lot of delayed justice and denied justice. But you know, 0:10:17.036 --> 0:10:19.996 in many of the countries, as you've written about, you know, 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:23.916 there was some sense of holding people accountable to just 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:28.556 sort of go back to normal and kind of ignore it. 0:10:28.556 --> 0:10:30.316 I mean, I don't think you're saying that the people 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:33.676 who participated in violence in the capital shouldn't be prosecuted 0:10:33.796 --> 0:10:36.996 or that we should drop all that. But it's certainly 0:10:37.036 --> 0:10:40.596 true that anybody who broke into the capital or committed 0:10:40.596 --> 0:10:44.836 crimes at the capitol should be prosecuted. And I'm absolutely 0:10:44.836 --> 0:10:47.676 in favor of that, and I also very much hope 0:10:47.676 --> 0:10:50.436 that former president will be impeached. The trouble is that 0:10:50.476 --> 0:10:53.116 we are talking about a really large number of people. 0:10:53.396 --> 0:10:55.476 As I said, we might be talking about ten to 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:58.156 twenty percent of the country. You know, you always have 0:10:58.436 --> 0:11:03.036 in post communist and post dictatorship situations, you always have 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:05.796 some kind of trade off or balance between the demands 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:09.756 of justice and the demands of practical lady, you know 0:11:09.876 --> 0:11:12.236 what can you you know, how many people can you 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:17.276 try from the old regime before you inflame the supporters 0:11:17.276 --> 0:11:19.476 of the old regime and cause a backlash. I mean, 0:11:19.836 --> 0:11:21.516 if you look at history, you can see how this 0:11:21.556 --> 0:11:23.436 has been done well and badly in different places. I 0:11:23.436 --> 0:11:25.876 mean a famous example of where it was done really 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:29.636 badly was in Iraq, where we conducted as the when 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:31.676 the Americans were occupying a rock after the fall of 0:11:31.676 --> 0:11:35.476 Saddam Hussein, we conducted a program called de Bathification, which 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:39.396 was all the members of the Saddam's Bath Party were 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:42.076 you know, lost their jobs, were sent home, you know, 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:45.516 we were held accountable for the regime, and the result 0:11:45.716 --> 0:11:49.356 was that many of them reformed, regrouped, and became the 0:11:49.876 --> 0:11:54.436 terrorist insurgencies that fought American troops for years afterwards. Because 0:11:54.436 --> 0:11:57.076 we're talking about so many people, that's not a great 0:11:57.116 --> 0:12:00.636 model for us. I really understand. I mean, believe me, 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:04.076 I understand the urge to want to shun people, to 0:12:04.276 --> 0:12:07.796 block them, to say you can't hold office, to to 0:12:07.796 --> 0:12:10.356 try and keep them out of public life. All I'm 0:12:10.396 --> 0:12:13.116 saying is that that's probably not going to work, and 0:12:13.196 --> 0:12:16.476 the and the evidence from other countries you know where 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:20.436 you've had big insurgencies. I mean again Northern Ireland. You know, 0:12:20.476 --> 0:12:24.476 the British tried to you know, eliminate the the IRA 0:12:24.756 --> 0:12:30.076 for many years through harsh, tough police enforcement, through you know, fighting, 0:12:30.196 --> 0:12:33.756 through infiltration of the communities, and one of the main 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:36.516 results was that the support and sympathy for the IRA 0:12:36.796 --> 0:12:39.556 grew and grew and grew. And it really only wasn't 0:12:39.596 --> 0:12:43.556 until they changed tactics and they began talking, you know, 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:46.476 in a different way about accommodating the not just the 0:12:46.636 --> 0:12:49.436 RA but the Catholic community more broadly in Northern Ireland 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:51.876 that they began to get a sea change in terms 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:54.516 of public attitudes. You know, this is too many people 0:12:54.556 --> 0:12:57.836 to wish away, it's too many people to shun. It's 0:12:57.876 --> 0:13:00.236 even too many people to cancel, you know, and prevent 0:13:00.276 --> 0:13:02.196 them all, you know, you have them all be fired. 0:13:02.236 --> 0:13:05.356 I mean, it's simply not going to work. And so 0:13:05.396 --> 0:13:08.636 we need to begin looking at some other tactics, you know, 0:13:08.716 --> 0:13:11.876 in which we can somehow live together. How do you 0:13:11.916 --> 0:13:14.436 plan to handle this at a personal level, I mean 0:13:14.436 --> 0:13:17.796 I've had all these fantasies going on inside my head. 0:13:17.836 --> 0:13:20.436 I mean I was, you know, years ago once at 0:13:20.436 --> 0:13:23.116 a dinner party with Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, and 0:13:23.156 --> 0:13:25.196 I sort of said to myself, I'll never do that again. 0:13:25.236 --> 0:13:26.916 You know, if I'm ever in a room with them 0:13:26.956 --> 0:13:29.756 on a social occasion, I'll you know, I'll storm out. 0:13:29.796 --> 0:13:32.196 You know I won't. I won't break bread with them. 0:13:32.316 --> 0:13:35.156 I've been thinking, you know, in the old days, like you, 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:37.676 I would go on a lot of panel discussions and 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:41.636 TV appearances where you're pitted, as in my case, the 0:13:41.756 --> 0:13:45.836 liberal opposite a conservative, and I've sort of said to myself, well, 0:13:45.876 --> 0:13:48.156 I'm not going to do that with people who rejected 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:52.716 the election results because I feel like they're outside the 0:13:52.876 --> 0:13:58.556 boundary of acceptable democratic values. And you know, I won't. 0:13:58.956 --> 0:14:02.476 I don't think those people deserve equal time. That's my 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:05.476 emotional feeling. I hear, absolutely hear what you're saying. I 0:14:05.516 --> 0:14:08.276 think you're right that it's not going to be productive 0:14:08.396 --> 0:14:13.116 to those people more aggressively contribute to the polarization from 0:14:13.116 --> 0:14:15.236 the other side. But honestly, I'm not quite sure how 0:14:15.276 --> 0:14:18.316 to deal with it, because I'm so enraged by people 0:14:18.436 --> 0:14:22.036 who've taken that position, including a majority of the Republicans 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:24.236 in Congress, that I don't know how I would handle 0:14:24.276 --> 0:14:26.996 being around them. I mean, I think the way one 0:14:27.076 --> 0:14:30.516 deals with it personally depends on who you are and 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:32.116 what I mean, what your role is. I mean, I 0:14:32.116 --> 0:14:34.436 think you, as a journalist, are well within your rights 0:14:34.436 --> 0:14:36.916 to say I won't be on a panel with someone 0:14:36.996 --> 0:14:40.716 who supported the insurrection or who didn't recognize who won 0:14:40.716 --> 0:14:43.916 the election, and I might well agree with you on that. Actually, 0:14:44.276 --> 0:14:46.556 I certainly had a rule. At the time of the 0:14:46.636 --> 0:14:49.556 Russian invasion of Ukraine in twenty fourteen, I kept getting 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:52.756 put on television programs with spokesman for the Russian government 0:14:52.756 --> 0:14:56.076 who would deny that the invasion was happening even while 0:14:56.116 --> 0:14:57.756 it was happening. I mean, you could see it happen. 0:14:58.076 --> 0:15:00.116 And I finally drew a line through that. I said, 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:01.636 I just you know, I'm not going to waste time 0:15:01.956 --> 0:15:04.236 talking to people who want to pretend that there's an 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:06.836 alternate reality happening. And I think you know you're within 0:15:06.876 --> 0:15:09.596 your rights to do that. I think the harder question 0:15:09.676 --> 0:15:11.796 for a lot of people, and I've been asked this 0:15:11.876 --> 0:15:14.116 a lot, and I have a you know it touches 0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:19.076 me personally, is what you do with old friends or 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:23.676 relatives or parents or people who you're very close to 0:15:24.236 --> 0:15:27.316 who have bought into some piece of that alternate reality. 0:15:27.756 --> 0:15:30.036 In some cases, I've heard from people who have relatives 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:33.436 who have started following the QAnon conspiracy. How do you 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.356 cope with that? And then we're in the realm of 0:15:36.836 --> 0:15:39.556 sort of a different piece of sociology and experience, and 0:15:39.596 --> 0:15:43.916 that's the realm of exit counseling. What is the advice 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:46.076 for people you'd like to help get out of qan? On? 0:15:46.436 --> 0:15:48.956 Some of the advice there is an individual version of 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:50.836 what I just said, in other words, change the subject, 0:15:50.916 --> 0:15:53.236 find other things to talk about. And then some of 0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:57.156 the advice is try and help people to see the 0:15:57.316 --> 0:16:03.196 contrast between the reality all around them and the false reality, 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:06.236 the alternative reality that they're seeing online, which is which 0:16:06.276 --> 0:16:10.236 is what the problem is in America, the version of 0:16:10.236 --> 0:16:12.876 events that they're reading on you know, whatever it is 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:17.956 Newsmax or or Facebook or gab or the Discord channel, 0:16:18.036 --> 0:16:21.396 whatever whichever piece whichever social media they're seeing it on. 0:16:21.876 --> 0:16:27.116 Try and present them constantly with alternatives and try also 0:16:27.476 --> 0:16:30.876 to help them see that there is a future for 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:34.756 them in America run by Joe Biden and a Democratic Congress. 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:37.276 Because many of these people have come to feel. And 0:16:37.316 --> 0:16:38.876 you can see this and hear it in some of 0:16:38.876 --> 0:16:41.716 the things that the Republican congressman said. You know, they've 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:45.076 come to feel that. You know, how disingenuous or real 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:46.716 this is, you'll have to you know, it's very hard 0:16:46.756 --> 0:16:50.156 to know, but that Biden's president represents the end of 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:52.676 a certain kind of America, the end of a way 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:56.796 of life. It's something they can't reconcile themselves too. And 0:16:56.876 --> 0:16:59.396 so it's sort of our job, as their friends and 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:03.556 their relatives, to show them how they can reconcile themselves, 0:17:03.876 --> 0:17:06.756 you know, in the way that Colombian insurgents need to 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:11.236 be offered some path back to a legal existence in Columbia. 0:17:11.276 --> 0:17:13.036 They need to be brought back from the jungle and 0:17:13.116 --> 0:17:16.556 retrained and helped to get new jobs. And I'm not 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:19.756 saying this is the same process, but there's some parallel 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:23.276 process that we should use towards people who we know 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:25.596 and who we're closed to, who are inside these cults. 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:28.156 But I guess two thoughts about that. I mean, one, 0:17:28.196 --> 0:17:32.676 you know, you talked to one Manuel sentis the Nobel 0:17:32.716 --> 0:17:37.276 Prize for President of Columbia for this program. You know, 0:17:37.436 --> 0:17:40.116 that is a very different situation in the sense that 0:17:40.156 --> 0:17:43.636 the rebels had been lost, the CentOS government was being 0:17:43.756 --> 0:17:48.316 magnanimous towards them in its victory, recognizing, as I think 0:17:48.396 --> 0:17:50.196 he said, that there was there was a trade off 0:17:50.236 --> 0:17:53.916 between peace and justice and saying, let's get peace, even 0:17:53.956 --> 0:17:57.676 if it's at the expense to some extent of immediate 0:17:57.716 --> 0:18:00.316 justice for these people who have done terrible things. But 0:18:00.596 --> 0:18:04.396 you know, they weren't dealing with a majority of the 0:18:04.436 --> 0:18:07.836 opposition party. They were dealing with something more like a 0:18:07.916 --> 0:18:11.436 remnant cult. That's true in that sense, they were luckier, 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:14.916 although we're not yet talking about this scale violence that 0:18:15.036 --> 0:18:18.196 the FARC. This is the Colombian rebels. I'm committed, and 0:18:18.756 --> 0:18:22.316 in Colombia, we're not talking about a illegal drug dealing, 0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:26.276 kidnapping insurgency. So that so that's also that also makes 0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:28.516 the story a little bit different. What you're now asking 0:18:28.596 --> 0:18:31.596 is a slightly different problem, which is the problem of 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:35.196 how we you know, what happens to the Republican Party. 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:38.556 You know, and and here I think it's in our 0:18:38.636 --> 0:18:42.756 interests as outsiders to the party, as as you know, 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:45.756 or former members of the party, as some people are 0:18:45.796 --> 0:18:48.076 some of my friends are, or even people who are 0:18:48.076 --> 0:18:51.276 still nominally in the party. There the task is to 0:18:52.316 --> 0:18:54.716 win the battle for the heart and soul of the 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:58.036 party and bring it back to you know, even if 0:18:58.076 --> 0:19:01.196 even if it's still you disagree with it, even if 0:19:01.236 --> 0:19:04.036 it's still um you don't agree with their policies on 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:06.996 judges or abortion. We just want them to respect the 0:19:07.036 --> 0:19:11.196 Constitution and we want them to to respect the rules 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:14.236 of rational discourse. And so it's therefore on all of 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:16.116 us to try to bring the party back there. And 0:19:16.196 --> 0:19:18.676 I think, for example, what does that mean for people 0:19:18.716 --> 0:19:23.116 who aren't in the party. It means praising, thanking, respecting, 0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:27.636 giving time to giving TV time to those Republicans who 0:19:27.756 --> 0:19:33.356 are willing to fight against the anti constitutional seditionists. And 0:19:33.476 --> 0:19:35.356 even though it's people you might not like, you might 0:19:35.396 --> 0:19:37.556 not you know, Liz Cheney might not be your cup 0:19:37.596 --> 0:19:42.596 of tea. You know, certainly McConnell is not many Democrats 0:19:43.836 --> 0:19:47.356 cup of tea. But giving him space on, you know, 0:19:47.396 --> 0:19:51.596 in the media and letting him say praise Cheney and 0:19:51.716 --> 0:19:55.996 denounce you know, the QAnon members of Congress is really important. 0:19:56.036 --> 0:19:58.516 So I mean, this is really a battle that's best 0:19:58.596 --> 0:20:01.836 one inside that party. And actually this brings me to another. 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:05.516 You know. Another lesson of countries like Northern Ireland and 0:20:05.516 --> 0:20:09.476 Columbia is that people like you and me may not 0:20:09.676 --> 0:20:14.996 be the best messengers for Republicans. I mean they may not. 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:16.996 They're just not going to listen to us, you know, 0:20:17.076 --> 0:20:18.916 in our view of the world. So who are the 0:20:18.956 --> 0:20:23.396 best messengers? Then people inside their community, people like that 0:20:23.516 --> 0:20:27.556 are best positioned to bring the party back, you know, 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:32.236 in the direction of respecting the Constitution and away from 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:35.276 sedition and so. But that presumes an outcome and where 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:38.956 the Republican Party overtime or sometimes sort of returns to 0:20:39.756 --> 0:20:44.676 relative normality, returns to reality, and sometimes parties are so 0:20:44.716 --> 0:20:48.756 split over something fundamental that they break up. I mean, 0:20:48.876 --> 0:20:52.556 the Whig Party before Lincoln, you know, couldn't be contained 0:20:52.636 --> 0:20:56.996 pro slavery and anti slavery factions, you know, which gave 0:20:57.076 --> 0:21:01.036 birth to the Republican Party in the first place. One 0:21:01.156 --> 0:21:07.356 argument on the other side would be the difference between Romney, 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:12.036 Ben Sass, Lisa Murky, Liz Cheney even on the one hand, 0:21:12.436 --> 0:21:15.156 and you know, Kevin McCarthy as the leader of the party, 0:21:15.156 --> 0:21:18.476 but all the people who have taken these consistent votes 0:21:18.876 --> 0:21:23.036 on Trump's side, rejecting the legitimacy of the election, that 0:21:23.156 --> 0:21:26.916 that split is you can't bridge that divide, and that 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:30.636 the party has to split. Either the moderate people leave 0:21:30.716 --> 0:21:33.396 the Republican Party and form some new party, or they 0:21:33.476 --> 0:21:36.796 capture the party, in which case the Trump people are 0:21:36.796 --> 0:21:39.956 probably going to leave the party themselves. That would not 0:21:40.036 --> 0:21:43.476 be a bad outcome, if I may say so. I mean, 0:21:43.156 --> 0:21:45.116 I mean, and that I believe is the outcome that 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:49.836 a lot of constitutional Republicans are hoping for. I mean, look, 0:21:49.876 --> 0:21:52.236 if we lived in a political system that had slightly 0:21:52.236 --> 0:21:54.636 different rules, we would have more than one party, more 0:21:54.636 --> 0:21:57.196 than two parties. Sorry, then the Republican Party would have 0:21:57.196 --> 0:21:59.716 already split and we would have a far right party 0:21:59.716 --> 0:22:01.276 and we would have a center right party, which is 0:22:01.276 --> 0:22:04.676 what lots of European countries have. Because of the nature 0:22:04.716 --> 0:22:06.596 of our voting system, it's much more difficult in the 0:22:06.676 --> 0:22:09.836 United States. But but yeah, one outcome well be that 0:22:09.876 --> 0:22:13.356 the party splits and one side of the other wins, 0:22:13.396 --> 0:22:18.436 and our role as outsiders is to help the constitutional 0:22:18.476 --> 0:22:23.836 Republicans win. Where do you see depolarization taking place, even 0:22:23.956 --> 0:22:26.836 on a very small scale. Where do you see this 0:22:27.236 --> 0:22:32.276 culture war divide, our fundamental political divide being bridged in 0:22:32.276 --> 0:22:35.596 the sense of people working together on local issues or 0:22:35.716 --> 0:22:39.996 things they still have shared interest in supporting. So in 0:22:40.036 --> 0:22:44.636 the United States, my sense is that that does take 0:22:44.676 --> 0:22:47.956 place at the local and city level quite a lot. 0:22:49.276 --> 0:22:53.276 That Republicans and Democrats are often capable of working together, 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:56.876 as I say, whatever it is fixing the potholes or 0:22:56.916 --> 0:22:59.396 fixing the roads. But in fact I often have the 0:22:59.436 --> 0:23:02.956 sense that politics in the US, even state politics, which 0:23:02.996 --> 0:23:08.796 can be quite nasty, but certainly city level, municipal, local politics, 0:23:08.876 --> 0:23:10.876 is a lot better and a lot healthier, and a 0:23:10.916 --> 0:23:14.716 lot more functional than national politics. And precisely because national 0:23:14.756 --> 0:23:17.996