1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. So these are 2 00:00:24,876 --> 00:00:28,716 Speaker 1: people who are seditionists. They don't accept the legitimacy of 3 00:00:28,716 --> 00:00:31,316 Speaker 1: the state, of the government, of the institutions, and they 4 00:00:31,356 --> 00:00:35,116 Speaker 1: would like to overthrow them. The United States is facing 5 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:38,956 Speaker 1: a challenge we haven't confronted since the Civil War. On 6 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 1: January sixth, we experienced a physical assault against our democracy, 7 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:48,116 Speaker 1: and a significant segment of society continues to support the assault, 8 00:00:48,476 --> 00:00:51,716 Speaker 1: not our democracy. This is too many people to wish away, 9 00:00:51,756 --> 00:00:54,716 Speaker 1: it's too many people to shun. It's even too many 10 00:00:54,756 --> 00:00:57,436 Speaker 1: people to cancel. So what do we do about this 11 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:01,916 Speaker 1: extreme polarization? How do we live alongside people who reject 12 00:01:01,916 --> 00:01:04,596 Speaker 1: our system of government? How can we get back to 13 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:09,356 Speaker 1: healthier kinds of political disagreement? Here, it's solvable. We're going 14 00:01:09,356 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: to take a deeper look at the problem of American polarization. 15 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: As the fits the approach of the show. We're going 16 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:18,236 Speaker 1: to have a series of conversations focused on solutions and 17 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:22,316 Speaker 1: making things better. Our question is what works to reduce 18 00:01:22,436 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 1: extremism and division in terms of finding common ground and 19 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:30,276 Speaker 1: building bridges, in terms of redesigning social media, and in 20 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: terms of political leadership Last week, we heard Ann Applebaum 21 00:01:34,516 --> 00:01:38,676 Speaker 1: talk to Juan Manuel Santo's about the process of reconciliation 22 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:43,836 Speaker 1: with former guerrillas after Columbia's long, horrific civil war. Today, 23 00:01:43,876 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk with Anne herself. She's a Pulitzer 24 00:01:46,876 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: Prize winning historian an expert on the former Soviet Bloc. 25 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:54,036 Speaker 1: Anne has been looking at vulnerable democracies around the world, 26 00:01:54,356 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 1: and she has some ideas about what has and hasn't 27 00:01:56,876 --> 00:01:59,676 Speaker 1: worked in other countries. This will sound a little strange, 28 00:02:00,196 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 1: but another really interesting example of a place that depolarized 29 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 1: is actually Canada. So some solutions may be closer than 30 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:12,356 Speaker 1: we realize. I'm Anne Applebaum. I'm one of the hosts 31 00:02:12,396 --> 00:02:15,396 Speaker 1: of the Solvable podcast. I'm a staff writer for The Atlantic, 32 00:02:15,676 --> 00:02:23,516 Speaker 1: and I believe that political polarization is solvable. Hi Anne, 33 00:02:24,356 --> 00:02:31,236 Speaker 1: Hi Jacob. It's clear that we are in unprecedented territory 34 00:02:31,316 --> 00:02:34,476 Speaker 1: here in the United States, and I wanted to kind 35 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:37,636 Speaker 1: of start the conversation just by asking you to be 36 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 1: as precise as possible in naming this phenomenon and possibly 37 00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:45,396 Speaker 1: comparing it to other places. Do you call it a 38 00:02:45,476 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 1: breakdown to democracy? Do you call it polarization? What are 39 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 1: we living through right now. Polarization is clearly, you know, 40 00:02:52,636 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 1: a good word to use, but other words have been 41 00:02:55,556 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 1: used in the past, division, breaking up of political unity, 42 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,876 Speaker 1: leading towards civil war. I think the more interesting question 43 00:03:04,236 --> 00:03:07,956 Speaker 1: is what to call the group of people who were 44 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 1: at the Capitol and genre the sixth and those in 45 00:03:11,076 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 1: the country who support them, because this is not the 46 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: same thing as the Republican Party, it's not the same 47 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:21,476 Speaker 1: thing as conservatives. This is, in fact not a conservative group. 48 00:03:21,476 --> 00:03:24,316 Speaker 1: It's a radical group. And it's also very clear to 49 00:03:24,396 --> 00:03:28,076 Speaker 1: understand what they were doing there. They were not Republicans 50 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: attacking Democrats. They were actually attacking Congress itself, the institution. 51 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:37,236 Speaker 1: They were trying to prevent Congress from recognizing and naming 52 00:03:37,276 --> 00:03:41,436 Speaker 1: the next president. This was actually an anti institutional, anti 53 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:46,036 Speaker 1: systemic group, which is not something we're accustomed to in 54 00:03:46,116 --> 00:03:49,756 Speaker 1: American history, at least not since the Civil War. But 55 00:03:49,836 --> 00:03:52,516 Speaker 1: it is something that you can see in other times 56 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:56,516 Speaker 1: and places. You can see it, for example, in Northern Ireland, 57 00:03:56,556 --> 00:03:59,476 Speaker 1: where there was during the era of the Troubles, there 58 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:01,956 Speaker 1: was a group of people who lived in Northern Ireland 59 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:05,876 Speaker 1: who didn't accept the legitimate government of Northern Ireland and 60 00:04:06,036 --> 00:04:10,116 Speaker 1: became terrorists or supporters of terror because they wanted to 61 00:04:10,156 --> 00:04:14,276 Speaker 1: overthrow it. You can look at a country like Columbia 62 00:04:14,356 --> 00:04:18,316 Speaker 1: where you see an insurgency that fought for fifty years, 63 00:04:18,756 --> 00:04:21,516 Speaker 1: living in the jungle and living off kidnapping and drug 64 00:04:21,556 --> 00:04:24,796 Speaker 1: dealing because they didn't accept the legitimacy of the government. 65 00:04:25,036 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 1: And although those are more extreme versions than what we have, 66 00:04:28,076 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: that's really what we're talking about. And so then the 67 00:04:29,956 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 1: question is whether it's the best word to use, insurgency 68 00:04:32,716 --> 00:04:36,316 Speaker 1: or insurrectionist. Some people have had an argument about whether 69 00:04:36,436 --> 00:04:38,956 Speaker 1: to say fascist, and of course there are ways in 70 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:42,396 Speaker 1: which this group resembles fascism of the nineteen thirties. I 71 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:45,916 Speaker 1: don't think that's a useful term because it conjures up 72 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: all kinds of other things, and you know, we're not 73 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:50,996 Speaker 1: talking about mass murder or anything like that, and I 74 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:54,076 Speaker 1: feel it's a distracting term. And the term I settled 75 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 1: on in a couple of things I've written recently is 76 00:04:57,276 --> 00:05:01,636 Speaker 1: actually seditionists. So these are people who are seditionists. They 77 00:05:01,836 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: don't accept the you know, the legitimacy of the state, 78 00:05:04,996 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 1: of the government, of the institutions, and they would like 79 00:05:07,636 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 1: to overthrow them. So then the question is how the 80 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:13,996 Speaker 1: rest of us deal with that. Even in that and 81 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:16,636 Speaker 1: I agree that's a that's a useful term here, and 82 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 1: I think seditionists rather than secessionists, because these people are 83 00:05:19,956 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 1: not trying to start their own country or break away 84 00:05:22,636 --> 00:05:27,076 Speaker 1: into too a different political body as in the Confederacy 85 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 1: during the Civil War. But even that term, seditionists can 86 00:05:30,996 --> 00:05:35,916 Speaker 1: include everyone from the fairly large section of the population 87 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:39,156 Speaker 1: that will, in response to Paul, say they think the 88 00:05:39,196 --> 00:05:43,196 Speaker 1: election was stolen, a much smaller segment of the population 89 00:05:43,276 --> 00:05:46,916 Speaker 1: that would support violence, a smaller proportion than that that 90 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:50,516 Speaker 1: would be violent. And then maybe even within that, you 91 00:05:50,556 --> 00:05:54,236 Speaker 1: know this very strange fantasy land of the of the 92 00:05:54,356 --> 00:05:57,916 Speaker 1: QAnon people, which is more like, you know, ac cult 93 00:05:57,956 --> 00:06:01,836 Speaker 1: within the seditionists. Would you would you describe it that 94 00:06:01,876 --> 00:06:05,156 Speaker 1: way in terms of those kind of concentric circles. Yes, 95 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:11,036 Speaker 1: Although what interests me is one particular group, namely, I'm 96 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:14,036 Speaker 1: interested in the people who sympathized with the storming of 97 00:06:14,076 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 1: the capital. In other words, you know, there is a 98 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 1: group of people who think Trump probably won the election, 99 00:06:19,716 --> 00:06:22,676 Speaker 1: or anyway somehow the election was unfair. But then there's 100 00:06:22,956 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 1: a narrower group of people who actually think the system 101 00:06:27,276 --> 00:06:31,996 Speaker 1: should be overthrown. And I say narrow, it's not that narrow. 102 00:06:32,316 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 1: One poll that was done pretty soon after January sixth 103 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: showed something like twenty percent I think it's twenty one 104 00:06:37,956 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 1: percent of Americans said they supported that they supported the insurrection, 105 00:06:42,756 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 1: even assuming that not all those people pay that much 106 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 1: attention to politics, and some of them have probably since 107 00:06:48,996 --> 00:06:51,036 Speaker 1: then changed their minds. And so even if we say 108 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:53,876 Speaker 1: it's ten percent, you know, ten percent of the country, 109 00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 1: that's a very large number who don't think that our 110 00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:01,516 Speaker 1: political institutions work, who don't see any point in cooperating 111 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 1: with them, who presumably don't see much point in voting 112 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 1: or in participating in normal politics, and they would support 113 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 1: efforts to undermine them. That's not a problem that we've 114 00:07:11,716 --> 00:07:15,756 Speaker 1: had in recent history. So I guess the question you 115 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: get to right away is take that twenty one percent 116 00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:22,476 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Where do we fight them, Where 117 00:07:22,476 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 1: do we ignore them? How do we deal with them? 118 00:07:25,916 --> 00:07:29,596 Speaker 1: So the lessons from countries that have had an experience 119 00:07:29,636 --> 00:07:32,236 Speaker 1: like this, So countries again that have had an insurgency 120 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: or a terrorist movement within their you know, within their borders, 121 00:07:36,636 --> 00:07:40,116 Speaker 1: very often the things that you think will work like it, 122 00:07:40,396 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be so great if we all got together 123 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: and just debated it all out? Their number of charities 124 00:07:45,836 --> 00:07:48,836 Speaker 1: in the US that actually there's a famous one called 125 00:07:48,876 --> 00:07:51,356 Speaker 1: braver Angels that brings people together, you know, Blue and 126 00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:54,276 Speaker 1: Red team people together in rooms and has them argue 127 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,996 Speaker 1: or right. I mean, most of that, while maybe it's 128 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 1: you know, useful for a few people, is actually pointless 129 00:08:01,636 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: because when you have people who see the world through 130 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: such completely different lenses, you will not get them to 131 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 1: agree on politics and anything existential. If you get them 132 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:14,436 Speaker 1: in a room together, much more useful. And again this 133 00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 1: is counterintuitive and it's not a solution that lots of 134 00:08:17,036 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 1: people like, at least when they first encounter it. Is 135 00:08:20,476 --> 00:08:23,956 Speaker 1: it's much better to change the subject. In other words, 136 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:27,716 Speaker 1: get people to work together, to do projects together, and 137 00:08:27,836 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: do things together that are constructive, but without talking about 138 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:36,636 Speaker 1: or discussing the very the existential issues that divide us. 139 00:08:36,996 --> 00:08:39,156 Speaker 1: And so when this has been done in towns in 140 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, it means something like, you know, the town 141 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:45,876 Speaker 1: builds a community center, or they build a road, or 142 00:08:45,956 --> 00:08:50,876 Speaker 1: they organize a theater festival and members from both communities 143 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 1: participate and while they're participating, they're talking about the road 144 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: or the community center, and they're not talking about who 145 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:00,876 Speaker 1: should be in charge of Ireland Northern Ireland, should it 146 00:09:00,916 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 1: be Ireland or Great Britain. I can imagine, for example, 147 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: in the US, a way you could. I mean, for example, 148 00:09:07,916 --> 00:09:11,076 Speaker 1: we need to have secure at state capitals. State capitals 149 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:13,996 Speaker 1: have been the site of some violent protests recently, So 150 00:09:14,076 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: a useful thing to do would be to have a 151 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: meeting where you've got members of the different communities from 152 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 1: the far right and the far left and mainstream politics, 153 00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:25,276 Speaker 1: and you've got them together and said, let's think about 154 00:09:25,276 --> 00:09:29,276 Speaker 1: how we create safety at our around the Ohio State Capital. 155 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:31,996 Speaker 1: They're not focused on the things they're protesting about. They're 156 00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 1: focusing on how they create security at the Ohio State Capital. 157 00:09:36,076 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean they hate each other any less, 158 00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:41,196 Speaker 1: but it does mean that the following day, when there 159 00:09:41,196 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: are demonstrations there, they might not kill each other. You know, 160 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 1: the goal is prevention of violence, and the goal is 161 00:09:47,596 --> 00:09:52,076 Speaker 1: living alongside one another even when we don't agree. But 162 00:09:52,196 --> 00:09:55,236 Speaker 1: don't we need some sense that this was an extraordinary 163 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:59,396 Speaker 1: event and that the people who supported it need to 164 00:09:59,396 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: be made accountable. For it and need to realize that 165 00:10:02,076 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 1: what they did was not acceptable. I mean in South Africa, 166 00:10:05,396 --> 00:10:09,116 Speaker 1: for example, you know, there was the Truth and Conciliation Commission, 167 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 1: and in post communist societies, you know, there was certainly 168 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 1: a lot of delayed justice and denied justice. But you know, 169 00:10:17,036 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: in many of the countries, as you've written about, you know, 170 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:23,916 Speaker 1: there was some sense of holding people accountable to just 171 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:28,556 Speaker 1: sort of go back to normal and kind of ignore it. 172 00:10:28,556 --> 00:10:30,316 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think you're saying that the people 173 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:33,676 Speaker 1: who participated in violence in the capital shouldn't be prosecuted 174 00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: or that we should drop all that. But it's certainly 175 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 1: true that anybody who broke into the capital or committed 176 00:10:40,596 --> 00:10:44,836 Speaker 1: crimes at the capitol should be prosecuted. And I'm absolutely 177 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 1: in favor of that, and I also very much hope 178 00:10:47,676 --> 00:10:50,436 Speaker 1: that former president will be impeached. The trouble is that 179 00:10:50,476 --> 00:10:53,116 Speaker 1: we are talking about a really large number of people. 180 00:10:53,396 --> 00:10:55,476 Speaker 1: As I said, we might be talking about ten to 181 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:58,156 Speaker 1: twenty percent of the country. You know, you always have 182 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 1: in post communist and post dictatorship situations, you always have 183 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:05,796 Speaker 1: some kind of trade off or balance between the demands 184 00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 1: of justice and the demands of practical lady, you know 185 00:11:09,876 --> 00:11:12,236 Speaker 1: what can you you know, how many people can you 186 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 1: try from the old regime before you inflame the supporters 187 00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:19,476 Speaker 1: of the old regime and cause a backlash. I mean, 188 00:11:19,836 --> 00:11:21,516 Speaker 1: if you look at history, you can see how this 189 00:11:21,556 --> 00:11:23,436 Speaker 1: has been done well and badly in different places. I 190 00:11:23,436 --> 00:11:25,876 Speaker 1: mean a famous example of where it was done really 191 00:11:25,876 --> 00:11:29,636 Speaker 1: badly was in Iraq, where we conducted as the when 192 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:31,676 Speaker 1: the Americans were occupying a rock after the fall of 193 00:11:31,676 --> 00:11:35,476 Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein, we conducted a program called de Bathification, which 194 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:39,396 Speaker 1: was all the members of the Saddam's Bath Party were 195 00:11:39,436 --> 00:11:42,076 Speaker 1: you know, lost their jobs, were sent home, you know, 196 00:11:42,116 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 1: we were held accountable for the regime, and the result 197 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 1: was that many of them reformed, regrouped, and became the 198 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 1: terrorist insurgencies that fought American troops for years afterwards. Because 199 00:11:54,436 --> 00:11:57,076 Speaker 1: we're talking about so many people, that's not a great 200 00:11:57,116 --> 00:12:00,636 Speaker 1: model for us. I really understand. I mean, believe me, 201 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 1: I understand the urge to want to shun people, to 202 00:12:04,276 --> 00:12:07,796 Speaker 1: block them, to say you can't hold office, to to 203 00:12:07,796 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 1: try and keep them out of public life. All I'm 204 00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 1: saying is that that's probably not going to work, and 205 00:12:13,196 --> 00:12:16,476 Speaker 1: the and the evidence from other countries you know where 206 00:12:16,516 --> 00:12:20,436 Speaker 1: you've had big insurgencies. I mean again Northern Ireland. You know, 207 00:12:20,476 --> 00:12:24,476 Speaker 1: the British tried to you know, eliminate the the IRA 208 00:12:24,756 --> 00:12:30,076 Speaker 1: for many years through harsh, tough police enforcement, through you know, fighting, 209 00:12:30,196 --> 00:12:33,756 Speaker 1: through infiltration of the communities, and one of the main 210 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 1: results was that the support and sympathy for the IRA 211 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 1: grew and grew and grew. And it really only wasn't 212 00:12:39,596 --> 00:12:43,556 Speaker 1: until they changed tactics and they began talking, you know, 213 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:46,476 Speaker 1: in a different way about accommodating the not just the 214 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:49,436 Speaker 1: RA but the Catholic community more broadly in Northern Ireland 215 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 1: that they began to get a sea change in terms 216 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 1: of public attitudes. You know, this is too many people 217 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 1: to wish away, it's too many people to shun. It's 218 00:12:57,876 --> 00:13:00,236 Speaker 1: even too many people to cancel, you know, and prevent 219 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:02,196 Speaker 1: them all, you know, you have them all be fired. 220 00:13:02,236 --> 00:13:05,356 Speaker 1: I mean, it's simply not going to work. And so 221 00:13:05,396 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: we need to begin looking at some other tactics, you know, 222 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 1: in which we can somehow live together. How do you 223 00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 1: plan to handle this at a personal level, I mean 224 00:13:14,436 --> 00:13:17,796 Speaker 1: I've had all these fantasies going on inside my head. 225 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,436 Speaker 1: I mean I was, you know, years ago once at 226 00:13:20,436 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 1: a dinner party with Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, and 227 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 1: I sort of said to myself, I'll never do that again. 228 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: You know, if I'm ever in a room with them 229 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:29,756 Speaker 1: on a social occasion, I'll you know, I'll storm out. 230 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:32,196 Speaker 1: You know I won't. I won't break bread with them. 231 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 1: I've been thinking, you know, in the old days, like you, 232 00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:37,676 Speaker 1: I would go on a lot of panel discussions and 233 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 1: TV appearances where you're pitted, as in my case, the 234 00:13:41,756 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 1: liberal opposite a conservative, and I've sort of said to myself, well, 235 00:13:45,876 --> 00:13:48,156 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that with people who rejected 236 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:52,716 Speaker 1: the election results because I feel like they're outside the 237 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 1: boundary of acceptable democratic values. And you know, I won't. 238 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:02,476 Speaker 1: I don't think those people deserve equal time. That's my 239 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: emotional feeling. I hear, absolutely hear what you're saying. I 240 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: think you're right that it's not going to be productive 241 00:14:08,396 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 1: to those people more aggressively contribute to the polarization from 242 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:15,236 Speaker 1: the other side. But honestly, I'm not quite sure how 243 00:14:15,276 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: to deal with it, because I'm so enraged by people 244 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:22,036 Speaker 1: who've taken that position, including a majority of the Republicans 245 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: in Congress, that I don't know how I would handle 246 00:14:24,276 --> 00:14:26,996 Speaker 1: being around them. I mean, I think the way one 247 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 1: deals with it personally depends on who you are and 248 00:14:30,556 --> 00:14:32,116 Speaker 1: what I mean, what your role is. I mean, I 249 00:14:32,116 --> 00:14:34,436 Speaker 1: think you, as a journalist, are well within your rights 250 00:14:34,436 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 1: to say I won't be on a panel with someone 251 00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:40,716 Speaker 1: who supported the insurrection or who didn't recognize who won 252 00:14:40,716 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 1: the election, and I might well agree with you on that. Actually, 253 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 1: I certainly had a rule. At the time of the 254 00:14:46,636 --> 00:14:49,556 Speaker 1: Russian invasion of Ukraine in twenty fourteen, I kept getting 255 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:52,756 Speaker 1: put on television programs with spokesman for the Russian government 256 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: who would deny that the invasion was happening even while 257 00:14:56,116 --> 00:14:57,756 Speaker 1: it was happening. I mean, you could see it happen. 258 00:14:58,076 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 1: And I finally drew a line through that. I said, 259 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:01,636 Speaker 1: I just you know, I'm not going to waste time 260 00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 1: talking to people who want to pretend that there's an 261 00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:06,836 Speaker 1: alternate reality happening. And I think you know you're within 262 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 1: your rights to do that. I think the harder question 263 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:11,796 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and I've been asked this 264 00:15:11,876 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 1: a lot, and I have a you know it touches 265 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 1: me personally, is what you do with old friends or 266 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:23,676 Speaker 1: relatives or parents or people who you're very close to 267 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 1: who have bought into some piece of that alternate reality. 268 00:15:27,756 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 1: In some cases, I've heard from people who have relatives 269 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: who have started following the QAnon conspiracy. How do you 270 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: cope with that? And then we're in the realm of 271 00:15:36,836 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: sort of a different piece of sociology and experience, and 272 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 1: that's the realm of exit counseling. What is the advice 273 00:15:43,956 --> 00:15:46,076 Speaker 1: for people you'd like to help get out of qan? On? 274 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: Some of the advice there is an individual version of 275 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:50,836 Speaker 1: what I just said, in other words, change the subject, 276 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: find other things to talk about. And then some of 277 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 1: the advice is try and help people to see the 278 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 1: contrast between the reality all around them and the false reality, 279 00:16:03,236 --> 00:16:06,236 Speaker 1: the alternative reality that they're seeing online, which is which 280 00:16:06,276 --> 00:16:10,236 Speaker 1: is what the problem is in America, the version of 281 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: events that they're reading on you know, whatever it is 282 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:17,956 Speaker 1: Newsmax or or Facebook or gab or the Discord channel, 283 00:16:18,036 --> 00:16:21,396 Speaker 1: whatever whichever piece whichever social media they're seeing it on. 284 00:16:21,876 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 1: Try and present them constantly with alternatives and try also 285 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 1: to help them see that there is a future for 286 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,756 Speaker 1: them in America run by Joe Biden and a Democratic Congress. 287 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:37,276 Speaker 1: Because many of these people have come to feel. And 288 00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:38,876 Speaker 1: you can see this and hear it in some of 289 00:16:38,876 --> 00:16:41,716 Speaker 1: the things that the Republican congressman said. You know, they've 290 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,076 Speaker 1: come to feel that. You know, how disingenuous or real 291 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: this is, you'll have to you know, it's very hard 292 00:16:46,756 --> 00:16:50,156 Speaker 1: to know, but that Biden's president represents the end of 293 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:52,676 Speaker 1: a certain kind of America, the end of a way 294 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:56,796 Speaker 1: of life. It's something they can't reconcile themselves too. And 295 00:16:56,876 --> 00:16:59,396 Speaker 1: so it's sort of our job, as their friends and 296 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:03,556 Speaker 1: their relatives, to show them how they can reconcile themselves, 297 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:06,756 Speaker 1: you know, in the way that Colombian insurgents need to 298 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:11,236 Speaker 1: be offered some path back to a legal existence in Columbia. 299 00:17:11,276 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: They need to be brought back from the jungle and 300 00:17:13,116 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 1: retrained and helped to get new jobs. And I'm not 301 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: saying this is the same process, but there's some parallel 302 00:17:19,836 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: process that we should use towards people who we know 303 00:17:23,396 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 1: and who we're closed to, who are inside these cults. 304 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:28,156 Speaker 1: But I guess two thoughts about that. I mean, one, 305 00:17:28,196 --> 00:17:32,676 Speaker 1: you know, you talked to one Manuel sentis the Nobel 306 00:17:32,716 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: Prize for President of Columbia for this program. You know, 307 00:17:37,436 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 1: that is a very different situation in the sense that 308 00:17:40,156 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 1: the rebels had been lost, the CentOS government was being 309 00:17:43,756 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 1: magnanimous towards them in its victory, recognizing, as I think 310 00:17:48,396 --> 00:17:50,196 Speaker 1: he said, that there was there was a trade off 311 00:17:50,236 --> 00:17:53,916 Speaker 1: between peace and justice and saying, let's get peace, even 312 00:17:53,956 --> 00:17:57,676 Speaker 1: if it's at the expense to some extent of immediate 313 00:17:57,716 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 1: justice for these people who have done terrible things. But 314 00:18:00,596 --> 00:18:04,396 Speaker 1: you know, they weren't dealing with a majority of the 315 00:18:04,436 --> 00:18:07,836 Speaker 1: opposition party. They were dealing with something more like a 316 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:11,436 Speaker 1: remnant cult. That's true in that sense, they were luckier, 317 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:14,916 Speaker 1: although we're not yet talking about this scale violence that 318 00:18:15,036 --> 00:18:18,196 Speaker 1: the FARC. This is the Colombian rebels. I'm committed, and 319 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 1: in Colombia, we're not talking about a illegal drug dealing, 320 00:18:22,436 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 1: kidnapping insurgency. So that so that's also that also makes 321 00:18:26,276 --> 00:18:28,516 Speaker 1: the story a little bit different. What you're now asking 322 00:18:28,596 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 1: is a slightly different problem, which is the problem of 323 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,196 Speaker 1: how we you know, what happens to the Republican Party. 324 00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 1: You know, and and here I think it's in our 325 00:18:38,636 --> 00:18:42,756 Speaker 1: interests as outsiders to the party, as as you know, 326 00:18:42,876 --> 00:18:45,756 Speaker 1: or former members of the party, as some people are 327 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:48,076 Speaker 1: some of my friends are, or even people who are 328 00:18:48,076 --> 00:18:51,276 Speaker 1: still nominally in the party. There the task is to 329 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 1: win the battle for the heart and soul of the 330 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 1: party and bring it back to you know, even if 331 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: even if it's still you disagree with it, even if 332 00:19:01,236 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 1: it's still um you don't agree with their policies on 333 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:06,996 Speaker 1: judges or abortion. We just want them to respect the 334 00:19:07,036 --> 00:19:11,196 Speaker 1: Constitution and we want them to to respect the rules 335 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,236 Speaker 1: of rational discourse. And so it's therefore on all of 336 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:16,116 Speaker 1: us to try to bring the party back there. And 337 00:19:16,196 --> 00:19:18,676 Speaker 1: I think, for example, what does that mean for people 338 00:19:18,716 --> 00:19:23,116 Speaker 1: who aren't in the party. It means praising, thanking, respecting, 339 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:27,636 Speaker 1: giving time to giving TV time to those Republicans who 340 00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 1: are willing to fight against the anti constitutional seditionists. And 341 00:19:33,476 --> 00:19:35,356 Speaker 1: even though it's people you might not like, you might 342 00:19:35,396 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: not you know, Liz Cheney might not be your cup 343 00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: of tea. You know, certainly McConnell is not many Democrats 344 00:19:43,836 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 1: cup of tea. But giving him space on, you know, 345 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:51,596 Speaker 1: in the media and letting him say praise Cheney and 346 00:19:51,716 --> 00:19:55,996 Speaker 1: denounce you know, the QAnon members of Congress is really important. 347 00:19:56,036 --> 00:19:58,516 Speaker 1: So I mean, this is really a battle that's best 348 00:19:58,596 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: one inside that party. And actually this brings me to another. 349 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 1: You know. Another lesson of countries like Northern Ireland and 350 00:20:05,516 --> 00:20:09,476 Speaker 1: Columbia is that people like you and me may not 351 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: be the best messengers for Republicans. I mean they may not. 352 00:20:15,156 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: They're just not going to listen to us, you know, 353 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: in our view of the world. So who are the 354 00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:23,396 Speaker 1: best messengers? Then people inside their community, people like that 355 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:27,556 Speaker 1: are best positioned to bring the party back, you know, 356 00:20:28,076 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: in the direction of respecting the Constitution and away from 357 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,276 Speaker 1: sedition and so. But that presumes an outcome and where 358 00:20:35,276 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: the Republican Party overtime or sometimes sort of returns to 359 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:44,676 Speaker 1: relative normality, returns to reality, and sometimes parties are so 360 00:20:44,716 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: split over something fundamental that they break up. I mean, 361 00:20:48,876 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: the Whig Party before Lincoln, you know, couldn't be contained 362 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: pro slavery and anti slavery factions, you know, which gave 363 00:20:57,076 --> 00:21:01,036 Speaker 1: birth to the Republican Party in the first place. One 364 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: argument on the other side would be the difference between Romney, 365 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:12,036 Speaker 1: Ben Sass, Lisa Murky, Liz Cheney even on the one hand, 366 00:21:12,436 --> 00:21:15,156 Speaker 1: and you know, Kevin McCarthy as the leader of the party, 367 00:21:15,156 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: but all the people who have taken these consistent votes 368 00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: on Trump's side, rejecting the legitimacy of the election, that 369 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 1: that split is you can't bridge that divide, and that 370 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:30,636 Speaker 1: the party has to split. Either the moderate people leave 371 00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 1: the Republican Party and form some new party, or they 372 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,796 Speaker 1: capture the party, in which case the Trump people are 373 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:39,956 Speaker 1: probably going to leave the party themselves. That would not 374 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:43,476 Speaker 1: be a bad outcome, if I may say so. I mean, 375 00:21:43,156 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 1: I mean, and that I believe is the outcome that 376 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:49,836 Speaker 1: a lot of constitutional Republicans are hoping for. I mean, look, 377 00:21:49,876 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 1: if we lived in a political system that had slightly 378 00:21:52,236 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 1: different rules, we would have more than one party, more 379 00:21:54,636 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 1: than two parties. Sorry, then the Republican Party would have 380 00:21:57,196 --> 00:21:59,716 Speaker 1: already split and we would have a far right party 381 00:21:59,716 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 1: and we would have a center right party, which is 382 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 1: what lots of European countries have. Because of the nature 383 00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:06,596 Speaker 1: of our voting system, it's much more difficult in the 384 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:09,836 Speaker 1: United States. But but yeah, one outcome well be that 385 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: the party splits and one side of the other wins, 386 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:18,436 Speaker 1: and our role as outsiders is to help the constitutional 387 00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: Republicans win. Where do you see depolarization taking place, even 388 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,836 Speaker 1: on a very small scale. Where do you see this 389 00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:32,276 Speaker 1: culture war divide, our fundamental political divide being bridged in 390 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 1: the sense of people working together on local issues or 391 00:22:35,716 --> 00:22:39,996 Speaker 1: things they still have shared interest in supporting. So in 392 00:22:40,036 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 1: the United States, my sense is that that does take 393 00:22:44,676 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: place at the local and city level quite a lot. 394 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:53,276 Speaker 1: That Republicans and Democrats are often capable of working together, 395 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 1: as I say, whatever it is fixing the potholes or 396 00:22:56,916 --> 00:22:59,396 Speaker 1: fixing the roads. But in fact I often have the 397 00:22:59,436 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 1: sense that politics in the US, even state politics, which 398 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 1: can be quite nasty, but certainly city level, municipal, local politics, 399 00:23:08,876 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 1: is a lot better and a lot healthier, and a 400 00:23:10,916 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 1: lot more functional than national politics. And precisely because national 401 00:23:14,756 --> 00:23:17,996 Speaker 1: politics has become you know, it's a realm where people 402 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: perform and express their identities, where they choose sides in 403 00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:25,316 Speaker 1: the culture war. When we're talking about pollution in the 404 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 1: local river, you can get cooperation. Yeah, what what country 405 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:33,596 Speaker 1: you talked about? Northern Ireland is a place where you 406 00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:36,116 Speaker 1: know you've seen this taking place. What country do you 407 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:41,036 Speaker 1: think has been the most effective at depolarizing or reducing 408 00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: fundamental sectional or cultural tensions. This will sound a little strange, 409 00:23:47,956 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 1: but another really interesting example of a place that depolarized 410 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:56,436 Speaker 1: is actually Canada. As you have all forgotten, there used 411 00:23:56,436 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 1: to be a Quebec separates and it had a violent element, 412 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:03,436 Speaker 1: and it was very angry, and there was a part 413 00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:05,436 Speaker 1: of Quebec that was very embittered. This is the French 414 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 1: speaking partists that wanted to secede from the rest of Canada. 415 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:12,916 Speaker 1: And what the Canadians did to solve that problem, it 416 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: took a decade, was they literally divided it up into 417 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 1: littler issues. They created lots and lots of committees to 418 00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:25,036 Speaker 1: discuss them, the language issue, you know, the residence issue, 419 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 1: the history issue. They created about three dozen think tanks 420 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: dedicated to justice problem, sent lots of academics to write 421 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:36,476 Speaker 1: books about it. They involved everybody in the discussion of 422 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:40,396 Speaker 1: every detail, and I'm telling you, everyone got so bored 423 00:24:40,436 --> 00:24:44,876 Speaker 1: of it. It became the most tedious subject, and everyone 424 00:24:44,956 --> 00:24:48,116 Speaker 1: knew the ins and out so well that the thing 425 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 1: diffused itself. It became boring. Once it wasn't my identity 426 00:24:52,396 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 1: as a French Canadian versus your identity as an English Canadian. 427 00:24:56,636 --> 00:24:59,436 Speaker 1: And once it was about what language do we speak 428 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,756 Speaker 1: in elementary school and what percentage of signs have to 429 00:25:02,796 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 1: be in which language. Once it was at the needy, 430 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:11,076 Speaker 1: gritty level of policy level, it became much less interesting 431 00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:13,836 Speaker 1: and people were much less angry about it, and a 432 00:25:13,876 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 1: lot of problems turned out to be solvable. It's a 433 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:20,916 Speaker 1: really interesting comparison because the Kabaqua were poorer than the 434 00:25:20,956 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: average Canadians. They you know, they felt culturally oppressed, and 435 00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 1: it was a nationalistic movement and you know, while not 436 00:25:28,996 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 1: directly comparable to Trumpism in certain respects, it was a 437 00:25:32,516 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 1: similar sector of society making demands against what they thought 438 00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 1: as an elite that was oppressing them in cultural terms. Yeah, 439 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 1: it's a that's a good comparison. And there's alsoays, you know, 440 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,156 Speaker 1: an urban rural split, which is a little bit what 441 00:25:47,236 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: we have in America too. Although you have to be 442 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:53,436 Speaker 1: very careful with these stereotypes. There was a very very 443 00:25:53,436 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 1: good survey done that looked very closely at the nearly 444 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,036 Speaker 1: two hundred people who are at the Capitol who have 445 00:26:00,116 --> 00:26:02,316 Speaker 1: been arrested, and therefore we have their identify you know, 446 00:26:02,356 --> 00:26:04,836 Speaker 1: we know who they are and they have and it 447 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:07,636 Speaker 1: turns out that many of them are not the stereotype 448 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 1: of the Trumper who you think they are. They were 449 00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,236 Speaker 1: not necessarily from red states. They were often from blue 450 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:15,956 Speaker 1: states where they felt themselves to be embattled minorities. They 451 00:26:15,956 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 1: were often middle class. Quite a lot of them run 452 00:26:18,156 --> 00:26:22,196 Speaker 1: small companies and small businesses, interestingly, small businesses badly affected 453 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:24,916 Speaker 1: by the pandemic. In some cases they were middle aged. 454 00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:28,276 Speaker 1: They were middle class. They certainly had enough money to 455 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:31,276 Speaker 1: travel to Washington's, stay in hotels, and show up at 456 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:34,236 Speaker 1: the capital, so they were not It is wrong to 457 00:26:34,316 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: think of this group as as the poorest Americans. I mean, 458 00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:41,716 Speaker 1: they most certainly are not. Absolutely Now, one thing that 459 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 1: is obviously different from the circumstances we were just talking 460 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:50,156 Speaker 1: about in Colombia and Quebec and even Northern Ireland is 461 00:26:51,476 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 1: the role media in particularly social media. I don't think 462 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 1: in any of those situations you had the equivalent of 463 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 1: the kind of partisan media driving the distinction for sort 464 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:05,476 Speaker 1: of fun and profit the way Fox News does, or 465 00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:08,796 Speaker 1: obviously Facebook at the scale it is now as a 466 00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 1: way for people to isolate themselves in their own viewpoint 467 00:27:14,316 --> 00:27:18,796 Speaker 1: and kind of create, you know, self sustaining cults impervious 468 00:27:18,796 --> 00:27:21,836 Speaker 1: to information from the outside. What. I know you've thought 469 00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:24,316 Speaker 1: a lot about this. What do you think the way 470 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:28,756 Speaker 1: is of coping with the media impact in the other 471 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,876 Speaker 1: direction promoting polarization so, first of all, the phenomenon of 472 00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:36,636 Speaker 1: very partisan media was not unknown, and in the societies 473 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:38,916 Speaker 1: we've been discussing, that's a familiar one. But you're right 474 00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:42,996 Speaker 1: that the phenomenon of social media and actually the Internet 475 00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 1: more broadly, because it's really not just Facebook, it's a 476 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:49,476 Speaker 1: broader phenomenon, is a new one. And what's different about 477 00:27:49,516 --> 00:27:52,036 Speaker 1: it is that it really does allow people to live 478 00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 1: in alternate realities. I mean, you can live online, you 479 00:27:55,036 --> 00:27:59,516 Speaker 1: can get all of you know, your sense of who 480 00:27:59,556 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 1: you are online, your identity. You can become very popular 481 00:28:03,396 --> 00:28:05,796 Speaker 1: and be liked online by people you don't even know 482 00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:07,756 Speaker 1: in real life. And you can get all kinds of 483 00:28:08,036 --> 00:28:12,436 Speaker 1: sense of pleasure, connection and approval you know online that 484 00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:14,116 Speaker 1: you can't get in the real world. And so it 485 00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 1: has a that is a very important and very it 486 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:22,516 Speaker 1: does play very toxic and complicated role. I am very 487 00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:26,476 Speaker 1: um you know, I believe very deeply in um in 488 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:29,996 Speaker 1: both in the possibility and the necessity of social media regulation. 489 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:32,756 Speaker 1: I am actually writing about it right now. It's a 490 00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,916 Speaker 1: big project. Though I would like to stress that this 491 00:28:35,676 --> 00:28:39,516 Speaker 1: is the real question is not about content, and you 492 00:28:39,556 --> 00:28:42,436 Speaker 1: know who's going to decide, you know, whether the president 493 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:44,476 Speaker 1: gets to have a Twitter feed or not, and you know, 494 00:28:44,556 --> 00:28:47,556 Speaker 1: or who's going to regulate what content Facebook puts up? 495 00:28:48,036 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 1: The real questions are much deeper, you know, is there 496 00:28:51,316 --> 00:28:55,156 Speaker 1: a way to regulate the algorithms that decide who sees 497 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:58,836 Speaker 1: what and that that enable make it possible for people 498 00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: to live in alternate realities? You know? Can we imagine 499 00:29:02,596 --> 00:29:05,396 Speaker 1: different kinds of social media, you know, sort of public 500 00:29:05,436 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 1: service social media, a BBC of social media that could 501 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:12,876 Speaker 1: at least offer some people alternatives so that there are 502 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:16,316 Speaker 1: ways to connect with people whose rules are transparent and 503 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,236 Speaker 1: open in the way that we would like democratic debate 504 00:29:19,276 --> 00:29:22,196 Speaker 1: to be prints and open and are not where the 505 00:29:22,916 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: Facebook engineers aren't experimenting on us all the time to 506 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 1: find out which algorithm keeps us on the site longer 507 00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: or makes us like the site longer. Creating an Internet 508 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: that reflects democratic values and the values of that prioritize 509 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:44,756 Speaker 1: rational conversation and civic debate and civic virtues is a 510 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:48,556 Speaker 1: really big and important long term project for the United 511 00:29:48,596 --> 00:29:51,956 Speaker 1: States and actually for all democracies. And it's my contention 512 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 1: that it is the thing that we could work on 513 00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:57,356 Speaker 1: together with other democracies because the same debate is happening 514 00:29:57,356 --> 00:29:59,596 Speaker 1: in other countries. I mean, it's happening in England. It's happening, 515 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:03,396 Speaker 1: and the European Union, which actually has some regulation on 516 00:30:03,436 --> 00:30:05,516 Speaker 1: the books now that will come into effect in the 517 00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:08,076 Speaker 1: next couple of years, which will begin to do some 518 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:12,516 Speaker 1: real regulation of social media along these precise lines. Once 519 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:15,876 Speaker 1: we're past the immediate emergency of the pandemic and the 520 00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:20,196 Speaker 1: economic collapse. I really hope that Congress can find some 521 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:24,676 Speaker 1: bandwidth to focus on this, because it's the technology can 522 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:27,836 Speaker 1: be solved. There are ways in which we could do 523 00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: this regulation. There are teams of their academics who are 524 00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:33,956 Speaker 1: thinking about it, their proposals to be made. But what 525 00:30:34,036 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 1: there hasn't been until now has been the real will 526 00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:38,556 Speaker 1: to do it. I mean it's almost like, you know, 527 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:42,116 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties and the monopolists were in charge of 528 00:30:42,156 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 1: the railroads and the banks and the oil companies, and 529 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:49,436 Speaker 1: everybody you know sat around and said, well, that's too bad. 530 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:51,396 Speaker 1: It's really a pity that there are all these monopolies. 531 00:30:51,436 --> 00:30:53,196 Speaker 1: But there's really just nothing we can do about it, 532 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:56,716 Speaker 1: because that's just you know, that's just reality. And that 533 00:30:56,796 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 1: wasn't true. I mean, it was possible to reform the monopolies, 534 00:30:59,596 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 1: and it was possible to create anti trust law, and 535 00:31:02,196 --> 00:31:05,996 Speaker 1: it was possible to make capitalism more civilized. You know 536 00:31:06,196 --> 00:31:09,436 Speaker 1: that in that era. And it is possible to change 537 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 1: the rules of the Internet. I mean, the Internet has 538 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 1: changed over time and evolved because of decisions that people 539 00:31:14,596 --> 00:31:17,036 Speaker 1: have made, both in the government and outside the government. 540 00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:20,396 Speaker 1: And we can change it again. I mean, there are 541 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:23,196 Speaker 1: you know, it's our internet. You know, our rules and 542 00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:27,636 Speaker 1: our laws and our regulations can shape it. I do 543 00:31:27,756 --> 00:31:31,156 Speaker 1: hope that our political leaders come to see that quickly. 544 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 1: And my favorite last question is always what individuals our 545 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:40,916 Speaker 1: listeners can do, and particularly around this question of your 546 00:31:40,996 --> 00:31:46,116 Speaker 1: idea of finding common ground not on the big questions, 547 00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 1: but on some smaller, local type issues with people they 548 00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 1: might strongly disagree with. What are ways to pursue that, 549 00:31:54,516 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: I think for people who are maybe have a little 550 00:31:56,916 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: more equanimity that I do at this stage, or you know, 551 00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:01,876 Speaker 1: maybe I will in six months, But you know, what 552 00:32:01,956 --> 00:32:05,156 Speaker 1: are some ways to get involved in things that you 553 00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:10,196 Speaker 1: think will have that kind of soothing effect. So look 554 00:32:10,316 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 1: for organizations that have mixed membership, charities or local NGOs, 555 00:32:18,356 --> 00:32:21,276 Speaker 1: local municipal organizations that you can work with where you'll 556 00:32:21,276 --> 00:32:24,836 Speaker 1: be in contact with people who have different ideas from you, 557 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: or who have a different political orientation from you. I mean, 558 00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:31,116 Speaker 1: it's always a useful thing to do. And of course, 559 00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:33,476 Speaker 1: even as I'm advising this, I realize how hard that 560 00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:36,396 Speaker 1: can be depending on what community you live in. People 561 00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:40,676 Speaker 1: that you know or people who are whose orientation is 562 00:32:40,716 --> 00:32:44,236 Speaker 1: different from you seek ways to communicate with them. And 563 00:32:44,436 --> 00:32:47,476 Speaker 1: by the way, people who are caught up in the 564 00:32:47,556 --> 00:32:51,236 Speaker 1: QAnon cult think very hard about how to help them 565 00:32:51,276 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 1: get out of it, because that's a that's a that's 566 00:32:53,676 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 1: a much more dangerous and insidious version in a version 567 00:32:57,316 --> 00:33:01,876 Speaker 1: of this problem. Generally speaking, finding ways yourself personally to 568 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 1: engage with people on the other side of the political 569 00:33:05,076 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 1: spectrum is you know, can only be useful. It sounds 570 00:33:09,716 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 1: like good advice to me. And thanks for the conversation today, 571 00:33:13,996 --> 00:33:18,876 Speaker 1: Thanks Jacob. That was the historian and journalist Anne Applebaumb 572 00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:21,436 Speaker 1: she's also, as you know, a co host of this show. 573 00:33:22,236 --> 00:33:24,556 Speaker 1: I hope that conversation sets the table as it were 574 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:27,036 Speaker 1: for the weeks ahead, as Anna and I continue to 575 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:31,276 Speaker 1: explore aspects of the problem with other guests. Today, we 576 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:33,716 Speaker 1: briefly touched on the role of social media and all this. 577 00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:37,836 Speaker 1: Solvable will continue next week with an in depth conversation 578 00:33:38,156 --> 00:33:41,236 Speaker 1: with the man who invented the term filter bubble, tech 579 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 1: entrepreneur and social activist, Eli Pariser. We'll discuss how social 580 00:33:45,996 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 1: media platforms are contributing to our political and cultural rifts. 581 00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:53,516 Speaker 1: We'll also explore ways to rethink the digital worlds we 582 00:33:53,596 --> 00:33:58,356 Speaker 1: participate in. One idea Pariser suggests is for digital designers 583 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 1: to think more like successful urban planners. I hope you'll 584 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 1: join us for that conversation. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, 585 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:10,436 Speaker 1: research in booking by Lisa don Our managing producer is 586 00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:14,116 Speaker 1: Katherine Girardot, and our executive producer of Pushkin is Mia Lobel. 587 00:34:14,756 --> 00:34:18,396 Speaker 1: Special thanks this week to Heather Fain, John Schnarros, Carley mcgliori, 588 00:34:18,516 --> 00:34:23,036 Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, Emily Rothstak, Maya Koenig, 589 00:34:23,156 --> 00:34:27,076 Speaker 1: and Kadisha Holland. Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries. 590 00:34:27,316 --> 00:34:30,156 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate 591 00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:32,676 Speaker 1: and review us really helps to get the word out. 592 00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:36,876 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin podcasts wherever you listen, including on 593 00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and Apple podcasts. I'm Jacob Weisberg.