1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Calls media. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: All right, first things first, The Indling The Beautiful Inling 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: Live Show October twenty second at the Allegian Theater. Here's 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: the good news. The good news is Matt and I 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: have made it into the first round of the Grammys 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: for this album. So give you a little inside ball here. 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: The goal is to bring out and invite people that 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: are You have to be a voting member of the 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 2: Recording Academy to like actually vote, right, So the goal 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: is to put the record in front of people who 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: could vote, and part of how to impress them is 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: to fill this room with actual guests and fans. So 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 2: you're doing me a huge favor by purchasing a ticket 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: and showing up, because it might lead to an actual Grammy. 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: Last time I was nominated was for the Terraform book, 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: only it was an audiobook and I was up against 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: Barack Obama, so I didn't even try. I was like this, 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 2: there's not even worth trying. But this I might have 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: a shot. Toby twenty second, Allegiant Theater. You can get 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: tickets at the Allegiance dot com or click all the 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: links in all of my stuff and it'll be in 22 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 2: the show notes. All right, now let's talk about Satan 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: all right, all right, alright, alright, hood politics, well prop 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: I got another friend here and this is going to 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: be a fun experience. 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: Sarah Marshall say, what's up? 27 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: What's up? How are you? Oh? 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: Man glorious? Oh there's the cat already. 29 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: I warned you, you. 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: Did, you did, Sarah broadcasting live from the hellscape that 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: is Portland. Man and all these I'm very brave. You 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: are very brave to brave these farmers' markets. 34 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 4: And listen, people got pushy. We did not know how 35 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 4: to form an orderly line. I have seen adults driven 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 4: to tears over Chantelle's. Well not really, but it could 37 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 4: happen like next week. 38 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 3: That's great. I have no idea who Chantarelle is. But 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 3: I've never seen really little mushroom. 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: Yes, I have never seen until I lived in Portland 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: for like six months. 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: When we're starting a. 43 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: Oh boy, it sounds like the implant was rejected. 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: It basically it was essentially it was like what's crazy? 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: Is like I my introduction to Portland was through really 46 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: was through like the music scene, so like this is 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 2: this was a while back, but like two of the 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: dopest DJs, I ever met some of the like the greats. 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: Like at the time during like the this was around 50 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: the time of like Red Bull was doing. 51 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: These like oh god yeah seven yeah. 52 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: Seven to like twelve. You know, they was doing these 53 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: like beat battles and stuff like that. So just this 54 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: like producer hip hop scene was like incredible in Portland. 55 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: So I was like, dude, poortly got a vibe. 56 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: And then I moved up there and I was like, oh, 57 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: I met everyone, I know them all. 58 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: They were all in one room. 59 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were. 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 3: Oh that's the whole scene. 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 4: If something happened to that room, there would be no 62 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 4: vibe left. And also I think that was at the 63 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 4: time when Portland when not to overly blame California, but 64 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 4: let's just say anyone who had a little bit too 65 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 4: much money was like, hey, Portland, I'll give you twenty 66 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 4: dollars to kill your vibes completely and build a bunch 67 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 4: of condos. And we were like, heck, yeah, I love 68 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 4: when people want me to do anything, even if it's 69 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 4: going to be mad for me. 70 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I quickly learned that when yeah I got there, 71 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: I'm staying in Northeast. 72 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: Sorry, No, it was I felt like dang, I might 73 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: be the problem, because I was like, I got there, 74 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: moved in the northeast, and I was like, oh, it 75 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: was cool. I was like barbershop, here is at the 76 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: Opium restaurant. I was like, oh, it's great. And then 77 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: the lady I was like that did like the walk 78 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: through through the apartment. She was like, all black people 79 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: have left his city and I was like what. 80 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 4: And the city did not seem upset about it on 81 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 4: the official level. 82 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: So yeah, but either way, some of the best coffee, 83 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: beer and ramen there's that. 84 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, It's true. 85 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 4: What we lack in uh diversity and civil rights, we 86 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: definitely make up for in microw bruise. I was making 87 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 4: myself laugh yesterday imagining Trump just like calling into Fox 88 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 4: and Friends sorry to say the tea word, and just 89 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 4: like describing images of Portland Halloween yard displays, because I 90 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 4: took a ward testerday and was enjoying all the Halloween stuff, 91 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 4: imagining him being like, there are ghosts taking over people's lawns, giants, spiders. 92 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 3: Giant spiders. It's it's really bad. 93 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: It's really going. 94 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: To do it is. 95 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very satanic town. 96 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 2: Yes, that's great, which is why I want to talk 97 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: to you. So, so how this intersects with our show 98 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: is in a lot of ways, it's like history repeating itself, 99 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 2: like whether it's in politics for black people specifically, but 100 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: people of color people, you know what I'm saying, whatever 101 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: the case may be, you know, all the way down 102 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: to even in our churches, like oftentimes we find that 103 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: even though we might be reading from the same book, 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 2: our experiences are quite different, you know, one of which 105 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: recently is the you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination, like 106 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 2: that the next Sunday after that, I if you could 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: possibly put mirror images of or side by side images 108 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 2: of what was happening in what we were saying at 109 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: urban churches versus what was being said in these white churches. 110 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: It was like I had the complete opposite. I'm reminded 111 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: of when the beginnings of Black Lives Matter, and and 112 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: and when Mike Brown was assassinated, you know, and and 113 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: just and then and then eventually when you know, Trump 114 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: just like ate the American Church, like you just ate it, 115 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: like I don't know, like just like you just ate it. 116 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: Like I don't know how. 117 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: Anything to wash it down with. 118 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: Just gobbledy gobble you know, so it was we found 119 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: us in you know, inner cities. I'm using trying to 120 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: use color mute terms to not make it just as 121 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: simple as just black and white, but just just generally 122 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 2: who weren't you know, affluent evangelical spaces who but again 123 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 2: kind of like whether it's cultural or traditional or even 124 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: just like are still pretty and fascinated with the person 125 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: of Jesus. They are just like, I don't understand what 126 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: what fuck going on? Like what what are y'all talking about? 127 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 3: You know? 128 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 2: To me, that dovetails into what you about to study, 129 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: which was for anyone that's like closer to our age 130 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: was probably this was probably one of the first times 131 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: this happened where we was like, what are y'all talking about? 132 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: And that's the Satanic Panic? 133 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: Oh boy? 134 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I started studying the Satanic Panic and I 135 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 4: want to say twenty twelve, which is such a funny 136 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 4: time to look back on, yeah, because it seemed like 137 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 4: we were like, this is as much history as there's 138 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: ever been, and it was like, well, yeah, wait a minute, 139 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 4: give it like a day, and you know, and it's 140 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 4: not There's never been a time when people are like, wow, 141 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 4: things are really calm and normal back now, Like things 142 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 4: didn't seem normal then. And I think that a lot 143 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 4: of the technology that's allowing the world we're in and 144 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 4: the sort of lack of communication and informational overwhelm was already. 145 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: I think we could see it, we could feel it 146 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 4: being built aroun Us. But I started studying the Satanic 147 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 4: panic because I was a baby teacher. I was twenty 148 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 4: three or twenty four years old. I was teaching college 149 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 4: composition classes to students who, like on average, were older 150 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: than me, like just from the main you know, which 151 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 4: is very funny. It's like being it's like only slightly 152 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 4: less funny to me than being like, you know, a 153 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 4: one room school house, frontier teacher students who are taller 154 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 4: than she is. But I remember I was kind of 155 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 4: trying to teach myself how to be a writer. I 156 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 4: was in an MFA too, but I was just like 157 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 4: I had that energy that you have in your early 158 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 4: twenties where you're like, how can I improve myself on 159 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 4: this bus ride? And now I just you know, I 160 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 4: want to cool down my overheated brain. If I get 161 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 4: the chance to sit on public transit. I'm just staring 162 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: out at people's yards, like I'm in elementary school again. 163 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 4: But I remember reading an article in Texas Monthly, specifically 164 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 4: about the case of fran and Dan Keller, which was 165 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 4: a major case within the Satanic Panic and a relatively 166 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 4: late one where a couple was running a daycare in 167 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: the Austin area and accusations were born and started quickly 168 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: developing and spreading around between parents, very similar to the 169 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 4: kind of originating McMartin case and Manhattan Beach, California in 170 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 4: the early eighties, where. 171 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: At some point, some point, I'm gonna easy to go 172 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: finish this part what got you interested? But then we're 173 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: going to have to back up to be like, okay, 174 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: what is it. 175 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 4: We're going to freeze stream and go back in time 176 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 4: like a magic. 177 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know, right book finish you got well. 178 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 4: And so this case and what I found really interesting 179 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 4: there is a detail that it's always really stuck out 180 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 4: to me that, uh, because we also we really we 181 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 4: didn't know how to question young children, certainly not in 182 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 4: a forensic capacity at this point in time. They were 183 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: just beginning to realize that we needed to know how 184 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 4: to do that. And so one of the children described 185 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 4: and this kind of got passed around and augmented and 186 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 4: was very much believed in, given credibility by a lot 187 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 4: of adults, including in a fish roles that the colors 188 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 4: had kidnapped a baby gorilla from a park nearby. They 189 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 4: cut off its finger, they filled a bucket with the 190 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 4: blood from the finger, and they made the children in 191 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 4: the daycare drink the blood. And even if you accept 192 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 4: the idea that they're getting that much blood from a 193 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 4: gorilla finger, I just feel, you know, it's the it's 194 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 4: these little things that anyone, even slightly neurodivergent would fixate on, 195 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 4: which makes me think there are not enough neurodivergent people 196 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 4: in positions of power. But also the fact that there 197 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 4: there wasn't a gorilla at this park. There's a very 198 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 4: specific number of, you know, zoo enclosure gorillas in this country, 199 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: and that was a very easily checkable fact that the 200 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 4: adults in the room chose not to bother about because 201 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 4: they had allegations of satanic ritual abuse to focus on, 202 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: and they brought a trial and they ultimately want a conviction, 203 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 4: which I was just absolutely scandalized by. And I had 204 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 4: the set which I have since very much lost, that 205 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 4: the America that I knew was not a country that 206 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 4: this was supposed to be able to happen in. And 207 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 4: so that the story has become a fixation for me, 208 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: and it's it's, you know, taken me into the future, 209 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 4: into a time where I think it's pretty clear that 210 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 4: we're having the Satanic panic again. 211 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: Yes, that is a better way to put it, because oftentimes, 212 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: you know, for the younglings, they might think that like, like, 213 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: how how are so many people so gullible? Like right, why? 214 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: Like and didn't we used to be smarter? 215 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: Didn't we used to be smarter? Yes? 216 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: Like you like, just why are y'all falling for? I 217 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 2: know I often feel like we're like where are your antenna's? 218 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: Like you just just take five extra minutes to like, 219 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: just five extra minutes, just one more Google search, just 220 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 2: one one extra question to like for what you're experiencing 221 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: or what someone is saying to you. But like you said, 222 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: just five extra minutes or just just five seconds to say, 223 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 2: that's a lot of blood out of a finger. 224 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: Right, And children, some children will fib when they're oppressed 225 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 4: by adults and they feel like they have to come 226 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 4: up with an answer to make the situation end. But 227 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 4: kids also just don't really understand that much about the world, 228 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 4: and if they're asked to invent a scenario, then it 229 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 4: should be easy for an adult to realize that they're 230 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: feeling pressured to talk and to let them stop and 231 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 4: to not you know, to not be like, all right, 232 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 4: the gorilla finger, we got it, We're moving forward to 233 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 4: this one. 234 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: Bro. Like, how many times just the lack of imagination 235 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: or the just loss of empathy or innocence just to 236 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: be able to think back to when you were a 237 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: child and grown ups were asking you a question, how 238 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 2: terrified you were to make sure that you answered right. 239 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Like, I'm just trying to 240 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: give you the right answer, you know, I mean, like 241 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is is, but I'm guessing, 242 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 2: you know what i mean, Like I'm guessing at. 243 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: The right answer. 244 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 245 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 3: So when you say did they did somebody do something? 246 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 3: Did you touch? It is like, uh, yes someone, yes, 247 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 3: you know what I mean? 248 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then then when they then when you start 249 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: explaining it, like like I'm a father, like there are 250 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: times that like my daughter is telling me stories from 251 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: school and I'm like, oh, okay, that's that's where the 252 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 2: story went. 253 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: That's yeah, I. 254 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: Went off the rails. 255 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 4: And also I feel like sometimes little kids who are like, 256 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 4: are you telling me something terrible. 257 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: Or are you telling me something normal? 258 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, in your way, Because I remember taking going with 259 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 4: a friend and their toddler to like a like a 260 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 4: state far kind of a thing, you know, where they 261 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 4: have like animals and pens, and we saw all pacas 262 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,239 Speaker 4: that were in kind of like you know, the stables basically, 263 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: And so when she was describing it later, the toddler, 264 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 4: who I think was three at the time, was like, 265 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 4: and they had to stay cake is all day because 266 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: you know, she was seeing animals behind bars. If you're 267 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: an apathetic little kid, you're like, oh no, I mean 268 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 4: you've seen cartoons. And so they kind of there was 269 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 4: this you know, this refrain at the time, which I 270 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 4: know will be very familiar from recent events of believe 271 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 4: the children or we believe the children in the case 272 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 4: of the McMartin community. And what I find so interesting 273 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 4: about that and the way it repeats today, is that 274 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 4: you're not saying you believe the child when they say 275 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 4: anything other than the thing that you pressured them into 276 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 4: saying to validate your worldview as an adults. 277 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: Okay, so the back up and see if you could 278 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: give me a work in definition of yeah, yeah, Satanic panic. 279 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 4: So okay, So, and I've got to really dive into 280 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 4: all this in a new mini series I have coming 281 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 4: out from CBC Podcasts. And one of the people who 282 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 4: I got to interview on that show argued that really 283 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 4: there are many Satanic panics and different panics happening simultaneously, 284 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: and that the one we know from the eighties is 285 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 4: also history repeating itself because in a way that we 286 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: never thought would happen when we had you know, we 287 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 4: were in section advanced time in human history that we 288 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 4: had VCRs and stuff. 289 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 290 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: So the Satanic Panic. 291 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 4: Of the eighties, which has been my fixation for a 292 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 4: while the eighties into the nineties, began in the early eighties, 293 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 4: and there are so many kind of originating points that 294 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 4: you can kind. 295 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: Of trace it back to if you like. 296 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 4: But two of the moments when I think you can 297 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,359 Speaker 4: say it really began or if in kind of wildfire 298 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: terms that turned from a small blaze into something that 299 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 4: had the power to leap around North America was a 300 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 4: with the publication in nineteen eighty of a book called 301 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 4: Michelle Remembers, which was a book about a Canadian woman 302 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 4: who went into therapy. Her therapist was like, you have 303 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 4: no reason to not be fine. Why aren't you fine, 304 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 4: And then decided that the reason she wasn't fixed yet, 305 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 4: which was a thing we very much believed women should 306 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 4: be able to do in therapy in the seventies, Yes, 307 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 4: was he got her into some kind of a trance 308 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 4: like state and believed that he was regressing her to 309 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 4: herself as a young child, and she began producing kind 310 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 4: of these initially, these kind of dreamlike images that he 311 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 4: decided had to me, and that she had been given 312 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 4: to a coven of witches by her mother, and they 313 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: decided that it was a Satanic cult in fact, and 314 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 4: also that Victoria, British Columbia was one of the two 315 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 4: main headquarters of Satanism in the world, which is incredible 316 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 4: to me because we used to go camping there all 317 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 4: the time when I was a kid, and I never 318 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 4: saw anything to indicate that you'd think that I would 319 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: have heard at least occasional chanting. I just find that 320 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 4: so funny. Victoria is really an adorable town. The last 321 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 4: time I was there there was like a parade of 322 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: at least one hundred bagpipers piping, you know, because it's 323 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 4: one of your less satanically viby locations. And so they 324 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 4: take this story to a publisher. They also in the 325 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 4: process fall in love. They leave their spouses. It's a 326 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 4: huge scandal, at least in their neighborhoods it is. But 327 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 4: what the story becomes for the public is the story 328 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 4: of this heroic therapist who rescued this woman from memories 329 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 4: of satanic ritual abuse. And it is like the fran 330 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: and Dan Keller case in the Bucket of Blood, where 331 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 4: you look at the details or you check it against 332 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 4: just school photos and records of her being in elementary school. 333 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 4: What her siblings, who weren't mentioned in the book talk about. 334 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 4: And I got to interview one of Michelle's sisters for 335 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 4: the show, which was truly one of the most I 336 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 4: don't know one of the great honors of my life 337 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: is a historian, honestly, and also the ex wife who 338 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 4: her therapist left behind, and they, I think were able 339 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 4: to turn a story. And also the therapist, Lawrence Pastor. 340 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 4: Was it about Catholic And I think that this couple 341 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 4: was able to turn their story from this illicit affair 342 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 4: that had damaged both of their families and had been 343 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 4: a betrayal of their partners and make it into the 344 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 4: story where actually they were being very heroic because they 345 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 4: had to defeat Satan. He was coming like pretty soon. 346 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 4: The book says that Satan's going to come in nineteen eighty, 347 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 4: and it's published in nineteen eighty the time you're reading it, 348 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: you're already late, yea. And then the second thing, which 349 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 4: is directly influenced by Michell remembers in which Americans generally 350 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 4: start hearing about in I believe nineteen eighty three, It's 351 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: happening starts brewing eighty two eighty three in southern California 352 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 4: is the McMartin preschool trial, when police and social workers 353 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: who have very minimal training again and how to question 354 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 4: children about sexual abuse, because this is a topic that 355 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 4: law enforcement is really just beginning to think about seriously 356 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 4: around this time, and that's kind of come out of 357 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 4: the shadows, in large part due to the Women's movement. 358 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 4: A mother lacks a complaint against a teacher or a 359 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 4: caretaker at the nursery school that her child attends, and 360 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 4: there is this belief held by a lot of newly 361 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 4: trained social workers who are trained partly on Michelle Remembers, 362 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 4: which has been given to them as kind of a textbook, 363 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 4: even though it's a mass market paperback that looks like 364 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 4: flowers in the attic on the idea that there is 365 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 4: way more satanic abuse happening than anyone has ever realized, 366 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 4: and wouldn't wouldn't it be kind of heroic to discover some? 367 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 4: And the thing is, you know, if you're questioning very 368 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 4: young children and you have an agenda, and I think 369 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 4: anyone who has a young child or who has spent 370 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 4: time with, you know, preschool aged children, knows this, you 371 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 4: can kind of get them to say almost whatever you 372 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 4: want if you put enough time into it, and if 373 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 4: you blend reality and play. And so that case ultimately 374 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 4: goes to trial. It's the most costly trial and kind 375 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 4: of series of legal outcomes and appeals and so on 376 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 4: after that until the O. J. Simpson trial. 377 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: But until O. J. 378 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 4: Simpson, it's the most costly kind of legal event in 379 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 4: California history. But of course, at the time that that 380 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 4: news breaks, huge news, and of course from a media perspective, 381 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 4: it's kind of great bad news to be reporting on, 382 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 4: because like, what's going to make people pay attention faster 383 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 4: than the word satanists, right aside from free money. I 384 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 4: guess that could be good. 385 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: So there you go. 386 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 387 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: I remember the phrase in Lauren Hill's song or in 388 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: the Fuji song how many mics when she says, go 389 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 2: ask Alice if you don't believe me. I had no 390 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 2: idea what that was until I realized that Alice is 391 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: was a book about this young girl's you know her, yeah, 392 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: falling into Satanism and all this good stuff and just 393 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: like and it was like and the lady that wrote 394 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: it even was like, yeah, I'm I made this. 395 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 3: I made all this it up. 396 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: I'm an old Mormon lady, and I have fun doing this. 397 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 4: Yes, it's also fun too, because like she really falls 398 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 4: into the dangerous world of pot, and I think kind 399 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 4: of incidentally becomes a Satanist because of that, because pot 400 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: is a gateway. 401 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: Direct to Satanism. And I guess Portland does proof of that. 402 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. I love it. So the version. So there's this. 403 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: So there's another show that did a deep dive on this, 404 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 2: called The Devil in the Deep Blue Sea, and it's 405 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: by this dude named Mike Cosper from this organization called 406 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 2: Christianity Today. Now, theirs is very much more like you know, 407 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 2: the calls coming from inside the house, like they were 408 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: more like as people who are practicing believing Christians, like 409 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: who looked back at their own past and was just like, yo, 410 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: that was we really dropped the ball on this one, 411 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: you know, like really looking back on that and being 412 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: like looking at other stuff like what was going on, 413 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: like like it's easier to put you know, to think 414 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: of the enemy and you know, the evil is some 415 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: sort of dark cabal rather than the fact that like yeah, no, 416 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: the SPC or you know, the Southern Baptist Convention was 417 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: like bro, were like we're molesting children, like they're no, 418 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: your pastor's doing it. You're saying like, uh, you know, 419 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: all sorts of scandals and stuff like that. That was 420 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: like inside the house that it was almost like ways 421 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 2: for which they were coping or avoiding, you know, issues 422 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 2: they need to talk about themselves, which I thought was 423 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: like super. 424 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 3: Interesting coming I got to read that, Yeah, it's a 425 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 3: it's a podcast, it's a really good po oh oh wow. 426 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: I didn't know Christianity Today was doing that, Yeah, and 427 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 4: they did. Actually, Christianity Today did a couple of really 428 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 4: amazing expose as and kind of put journalistic work into 429 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 4: exposing a couple of kind of early Satanic panic. 430 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess. 431 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh. 432 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,959 Speaker 4: The author of Satan Underground, which is uh, those are 433 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 4: amazing pieces. 434 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 435 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: But I say that to say one a setup for like, 436 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: uh to be very like I mean, just to say 437 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: the way like we saw like this the effects of 438 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: the Satanic Panic, how it got into like the inner 439 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: city was not so much. 440 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 3: Like like our churches. 441 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 2: We were like, it's like the the entry level like 442 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 2: stuff of just like look, dude, you know, like any 443 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: church is like stay away from you know, spells and 444 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: witchcraft and you know what I'm saying, and like stuff 445 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: like that, like Halloween's dangerous, you know. And then you know, 446 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: the worst it got for us was like they started 447 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: ruining our cartoons because like, you can't watch this because 448 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: it's got the spirit of witchcraft in it. 449 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: You know. 450 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 2: Luckily I had a mom that was a little more 451 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: like it's fine, son, Like, so my mom definitely didn't 452 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: like fall into a lot of we still got to 453 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 2: dress for Halloween and all this good stuff. But like 454 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I say, I have 455 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: to say, like for us, like Satan worship was like Sarah, 456 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: that's white shit, Like yeah. 457 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 3: We was like. 458 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: So so for our That's what I mean by like 459 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: for our churches, Like that's not really, that's not really 460 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: something we worried about, you know what I'm saying, Like, 461 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: we're not worried about these little hood kids doing, you know, 462 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: sacrificing cats to Satan. 463 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like, that's not what they doing. 464 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 3: So for us, this the the. 465 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: Depths of what you were talking about, it didn't really 466 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 2: come into our experience, you know what I'm saying in 467 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: this in that sense we of course we had our 468 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: Hallelujah Nights because of you know what I'm saying, like 469 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: because of the Halloween was evil, you know so, and 470 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: so for us it was more the campy version of 471 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: of whatever this was kind of got to us. But 472 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 2: I say all that to say, so you move into 473 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: now in the in the parallel and to where like 474 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: like I said, like Maga and like trump Ism and 475 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: whatever is happening now, like and how it's like that 476 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: it's just the Christian dominion and all this stuff that 477 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: like we still look at that. We're like, they're still 478 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: like in our culture a lot of just traditional values around, 479 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: like like reproductive rights and like you know LBGTQ community 480 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: that still is like something that like you know, it 481 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 2: is something that really needs to be processed within like 482 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: people of colors like communities, Like we still that's still 483 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: something that like we we really ain't got right. You 484 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: know what I'm saying generally, you know, uh, obviously not 485 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: I'm speaking in gross generalities. 486 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: But. 487 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: Those length sometimes those languages like or are different terms 488 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: be the entry point into like our world. But then 489 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: when we start realizing like oh, y'all are deeply racist 490 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: that it's like that, it's like, oh, it's easy to 491 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 2: like be like, oh, okay, I'm done with anything you got 492 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 2: to say, because you do well. 493 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I will let me ask you a question. 494 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 495 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 4: I really I enjoy doing this series partly because A 496 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 4: I got to talk to so many people whose stories 497 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 4: I've been curious about for a long time, and be 498 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 4: because I really find it interesting to think about this 499 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 4: as a form of folklore. 500 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: And I feel like. 501 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 4: Kind of of the eighties and that we're seeing a 502 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 4: resurgence of now seems to be. And you know, and 503 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 4: I can speak better for the eighties when I've really 504 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 4: you know, done my homework, and now the homework is 505 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 4: respawning around us every day. But it really appears to 506 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 4: have been an overpoweringly white phenomenon. And I feel like 507 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 4: one of my little theories about it is that why 508 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 4: were white people in the eighties and today evidently so 509 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 4: invested in telling stories where there's these Satanists in the woods. 510 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 4: They're chanting, they're sacrificing goats, they're stealing babies out at 511 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 4: the hospital. They want to get your kids to join, 512 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 4: they want to train you to be a killer or 513 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 4: steal your baby. 514 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: It feels like a lot of kind of. 515 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 4: White folklore, and folklore based in defending white supremacy is 516 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 4: based on the idea of making being a white person 517 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 4: in America seem like the most dangerous position you could 518 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 4: possibly be in. 519 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's exactly what it seems like to us, you know, 520 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: whether it's the great replacement like it all seems for like, 521 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: you know, from my political brain, my social brain, my 522 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: black brain, all of it. To me, it's just like 523 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 2: the Venn diagrams of circle. I'm like, this is you 524 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: want to be victims so bad. 525 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so bizarre to me. 526 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: And I also I think too, like there's something to 527 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: be said about like, yeah, like this is happening in 528 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: the woods, you know, like but just thinking about just 529 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 2: old European folklore and that same thing is like the 530 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: woods were scary, they're dark, and you know what I mean, 531 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: This idea of like this lady that's in the wood 532 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: that's eating your children just she's a witch. And I'm like, well, 533 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: she might just be single and like and just doesn't 534 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: and wants to be left alone. But that's so scary 535 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: to y'all, Like you can't figure out. 536 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: She just wants to make her tinctures for having's. 537 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 2: Sake, listen, man, And I'm like, it's tea. Like you 538 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: ever have a stomach ache, you know what I'm saying. 539 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: I feel like witchcraft. Are you like your stomach hurt? 540 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 2: You drank these these flowers and now your stomach don't hurt. 541 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: That's that's satan, Like you know, I thought that was 542 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 2: medicine anyway. But but yeah, but there is something to 543 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: be said about this just like that. It is for 544 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: the life of me, It's just so I just don't 545 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: relate to it. And I don't know if you just 546 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: if you desire empathy, if you like if if somewhere 547 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: deep down inside it's like just as a as in 548 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: monolith just cannot handle the camera not being on you, 549 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. 550 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: So like I think there's an element of that. 551 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this yeah, just this idea that 552 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: like white white life is fragile and in danger. 553 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, whether it's the the Satanists out. 554 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: There, or the hordes of immigrants or the you know, 555 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 2: born criminal black people, like whatever, it is, your way 556 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: of life is in danger, and I just yeah, it is. 557 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 4: It's also like it was a movement that allowed for 558 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 4: the I think like sexual monopolization. I mean it's tough 559 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 4: because everyone kind of lost because it was like if 560 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 4: you haven't had satanic ritual sexual abuse, then like you're 561 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 4: probably fine. It was like, well that we invented that, 562 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 4: so actually nobody has had that, or you might be 563 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 4: because you know, like someone could like just worship Satan 564 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 4: all by themselves. And there have been instances of what 565 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: you could very loosely call satanic crime, where like if 566 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 4: you say hail Satan while killing someone and technically it's 567 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 4: a satanic murder, but like, there's never been any evidence 568 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: of anything organized or any kind of you know, covens 569 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 4: or groups, let alone a vast network of groups that's 570 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 4: taking over America. 571 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's so interesting. 572 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: To me. 573 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 4: Is that we kind of monopolized abuse is something that 574 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 4: happens to white people, and that's the only kind of 575 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 4: abuse worth looking at, specifically the satanic kind. And be 576 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 4: what I find so interesting is that in the eighties 577 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: when this was going on, there was this concept within 578 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 4: fundamentalist Christianity and homeschooling types and I think certainly within 579 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 4: the SBC as well to an extent of the Joshua 580 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 4: generation and this generation of homeschool Christian kids that we're 581 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 4: gonna move into roles in government and effectively take over society. 582 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, that happened, dude. 583 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you how You're like, dude, 584 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: why is it happening? And it's like, you're right, that's 585 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: what you meant. Man, I'd love for you to unpack 586 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: that more. That's that's good to be, like, it feels 587 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: like we're going through it again. But I specifically remember 588 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: that phrase growing up in church, like you guys are 589 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 2: the Joshua generation. What we thought that meant was that 590 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: Christ was returning and we was going into the Promised Land, 591 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And like and as somebody 592 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: that like, you know, like hip hop had this like 593 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: weird fixation on like revelation mark of the Beast in 594 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: times like you know, so us who were just like 595 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: graffiti kids who happened to go to this church, like. 596 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 3: Was like, Oh, this is dope. 597 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: We get to see you know, the four trumpets and 598 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 2: the full horsemen, you know what I mean, Like, we 599 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: just thought it was just cool for them to say that. 600 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: I had no idea that and I don't even think 601 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: our church knew that too. That like what you're saying now, 602 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: it's like, no, we're talking about moving it into the 603 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: halls of power, creating an America that is what y'all 604 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: dreamed as y'all's promised land. I would have never thought 605 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: of it like that. So yeah, talk about it some more. 606 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I think maybe one of the things that's 607 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 4: coming up is what these stories reveal about how people 608 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 4: imagine the devil and what we kind of use the 609 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 4: devil for. 610 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: Because I think in this case, if you have. 611 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 4: A movement within Christianity to raise children in order to 612 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 4: you know, specifically, to end up in positions of power 613 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 4: within government or within policymaking in order to make the 614 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 4: government more Christian and remove the sort of you know, 615 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 4: what remains of the idea of the separation of church 616 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 4: and state basically, and we've seen that happening. You know, 617 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 4: I don't have to get into how yeah, you know, 618 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 4: the overturning of Roe v. Wade is certainly a big one. 619 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 4: And sorry Kat in the Cords, And so I think 620 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 4: that there's one of the things I found so interesting 621 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 4: about this project is that it really cemented for me 622 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 4: how the things you experience on an interpersonal level with 623 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 4: one person I think can recur on a larger scale 624 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 4: with a society. And where like if someone is pulling 625 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 4: a lot of bad shit basically, and can I swear yes, great, 626 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 4: people ask me that on my show and I'm like, 627 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 4: of course you can. How else can you express an idea? 628 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 4: But people who are up to something and who are 629 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 4: deeply in denial or just lying about it, yeah, often 630 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 4: really like to accuse someone else of doing the thing 631 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 4: they're doing, or having the motivations they have. And I 632 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 4: feel like, on a larger scale, if you are attempting 633 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 4: to take over society successfully, I might add, then like 634 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 4: a nice way of just creating a misdirection or keeping 635 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 4: anyone from thinking too hard about this or maybe realizing 636 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 4: yourself that it's all a bit sinister is to be like, well, 637 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 4: satan Is are trying to take over society. More so, 638 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 4: when you think about it, we have to take over 639 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 4: society because it's us or satan. 640 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, and it's kind of yeah, these 641 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 2: these are radical leftists. They're evil. You know, they're evil. 642 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: They're trying to take over society. Yeah, so we have 643 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 2: to fight them. 644 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: Man, I'm like, show me. 645 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 4: If anything radical leftists just want I mean, again, it's 646 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 4: you know, a gross generalization, but every radical leftist I've 647 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 4: known has basically just wanted to be left alone and 648 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 4: maybe like learn blacksmithing. 649 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: Listen, it's generally like it can just can we live? 650 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: Like how about just how about just don't make laws 651 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 2: that make it hard for humans to live? I just 652 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: I just it just seems it seems so simple to me, 653 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, but yeah, now you're right. 654 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 4: Well, and also there's like such an interesting like loop 655 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 4: to loop happening now where it feels like sort of 656 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 4: white American Protestant has has been taken over by the 657 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,760 Speaker 4: prosperity gospel in the past fifty years, which is based 658 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 4: on the idea that if God loves you, he'll give 659 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 4: you stuff. And it feels like, you know, just based 660 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 4: on I'm no expert, but based on the Bible, it's 661 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 4: kind of like hard to be a good rich person, 662 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 4: but now having stuff means God loves you. 663 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 2: It's been a discussion in house for a very long 664 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: time how to deal with that because like, you know, yeah, 665 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 2: like you said, the dude, the main character of the book, 666 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 2: has a lot to say about the wealthy and the 667 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: way you need to handle a wealthy. 668 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: But selling stuff in church, you know. 669 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 2: And I don't know, man, one of the one of 670 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 2: the only rare moments of violence was over selling things. 671 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: And uh, but but counterpoint, being rich is pretty cool. 672 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 4: Also keeping all of your stuff for yourself because it's 673 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 4: your Also. 674 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, also power is awesome seems like the like but hey, okay, 675 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: but counterpoint, you know, you could either you can either 676 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: be free from Pharaoh or you can become fair you 677 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 2: could either be free from Caesar or you. 678 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 3: Can become Caesar. Seems as though they've chosen the latter. 679 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 2: Anyway, what would have been my last question is what 680 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 2: you've kind of already kind of kind of said, is 681 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: like there's actually some takeaways from that time that help 682 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: us sort of kind of discern the moment we in now, 683 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: which is this, like you know, created Boogeyman. I think 684 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 2: there's also as a as a side note, like I 685 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: know the kids from that from the elementary school or 686 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: the yeah, the preschool out here in La Manhattan Beach, 687 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 2: some of them to this day are like, know what 688 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 2: happened to me? You know what I'm saying like, and 689 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: and then others going. 690 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, well and one of the issues too. 691 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 4: And then we had so many cases similar to McMartin 692 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 4: that kind of replicated the structure is that if you 693 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 4: have any instances of actual abuse that occurred, then they 694 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 4: get hidden under these layers of storytelling. And also if 695 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 4: you're especially if you're a young child, or if you're 696 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 4: in a suggestible state, like if you're under hypnosis, which 697 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 4: was also therapy use at the time, and police departments 698 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 4: there might still be some police departments in this country 699 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 4: still using hypnosis to refresh witness testimony. And what turns 700 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 4: out to be true is that you're not more truthful 701 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 4: under hypnosis, but you're a lot more vulnerable to suggestion. 702 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 4: And also for many people, the things that the scenarios 703 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 4: that you have to repeat over and over again under 704 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 4: repeated questioning, if you're a child, or if you're in 705 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 4: a hypnotic state, or you know, vulnerable in some other way, 706 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 4: begins to feel like truth. You know, there are people 707 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 4: who have wrongfully confessed to crimes that they didn't commit 708 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 4: as adults under intense pressure, with what felt like actual 709 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 4: memories of committing those crimes, even if it was the 710 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 4: scientific impossibility. 711 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, in just even understanding just interrogation methods, 712 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: crime all that. That's some of the stuff like we 713 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,399 Speaker 2: you know, in some of our training, like inner city 714 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 2: training to like the homies when they interact with the police, 715 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 2: when they say so, uh so, what time did that 716 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: car drive by? 717 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 3: Was like, well, it wasn't a car, it was a bike. 718 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: But if you don't but if you but when they 719 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: say what time did a car drive by? 720 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 3: You like, ah, I think like ten. Now you've just 721 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 3: admitted that it was a car, but it wasn't. Ye, 722 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like, so just little things 723 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 3: like that, true, yeah, you know. 724 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: And sometimes it's like, yeah, I'm just trying to get 725 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,959 Speaker 2: out of here, you know, and I'm gonna say whatever 726 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 2: I need to get out of here. But that but 727 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 2: you doing that, you're all so nervous. There's also a 728 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 2: power dynamic. There's just so many things happening there that 729 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,919 Speaker 2: like it's so hard to keep your your your your 730 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 2: thought straight, which is why the police. 731 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 4: Should be amazed at anyone is capable of telling the 732 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 4: truth to them honestly exactly. 733 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 2: And I know they know that, Like I feel like 734 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: they have to know that, like you know what you want. 735 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 4: They don't think they're being nice. They're not like, oh 736 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 4: I thought this was polite of me. 737 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 3: Yeah right, but they're like yeah totally. 738 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 2: Which is why the advice to every young person we 739 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 2: give is very simple, which is just shut the fuck up. 740 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 3: It's just just shut up, just respectfully, sir. I have 741 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: nothing to say. 742 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: Do you ever think. 743 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 4: About just the Kevin Pollack and the usual suspects. This 744 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 4: is my like sort of mental SoundBite for if the 745 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 4: police bring you in just like I want my lawyer. 746 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, uh huh. I always think that too. 747 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 2: Like my my thought is like listen, man, like I 748 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 2: try to and I try to say like this, sir, 749 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: I mean no disrespect. 750 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 3: As a rule, I don't give statements. 751 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: That's really good. I like that. 752 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 4: It's like you're like a beautiful hotel and you're like, 753 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 4: our checkout time is eleven o'clock. 754 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, simply the policy. It's above me now this 755 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 3: is the. 756 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 2: Now anyway, Sarah, thank you so much for doing this, 757 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: being on the show. Can you please tell us where 758 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: to find what the name of the show is, where 759 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 2: to find it? 760 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me on. This was 761 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: just such a joy. And I'm so happy that you 762 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,720 Speaker 4: ended by telling people not to say anything to the police, 763 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 4: because it's my favorite fact. 764 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: They have to give you a lawyer if you're they 765 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: have to be. 766 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: But if you ask for a lawyer and then talk, 767 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 2: you've waived your right to a lawyer. 768 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: So like, just just like. 769 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 4: Wait until a nice liberal arts grab bustles into the room. 770 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 3: Yep. 771 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: Inevitably, this was I've had the best time. 772 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you so much for having me on 773 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 4: and I'm sorry for some of my answers being monologues. 774 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,240 Speaker 3: No, that's what we needed. 775 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,479 Speaker 4: The show is called The Devil, you know. I wonder 776 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 4: who the devil we know is. It could be white men. 777 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 4: It's coming out from CBC Podcasts. You can find it 778 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,839 Speaker 4: anywhere that you get your podcasts, as this tradition, and 779 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 4: we are releasing our first episode on October twentieth. And 780 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 4: I also do a show called You're Wrong About which 781 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 4: you should check out too if you want to hear 782 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 4: about Satanism, well not Satanism, but definitely the Satanic panic, 783 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,879 Speaker 4: which qualifies you to talk about everything but Satanism. And 784 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 4: we also have fun survival stories and pop culture misunderstood 785 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 4: history and we have a lot of fun over there. 786 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 4: And thank you so so much for having me. This 787 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 4: was the best time. 788 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, thank you so much, Sarah Marshall. Y'all, 789 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 2: so yeah, go go go learn about the Devil you know? 790 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 3: All right, all. 791 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 2: All right, now, don't you hit stop on this pod. 792 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 2: You better listen to these credits. I need you to 793 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 2: finish this thing so I can get the download numbers. Okay, 794 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 2: so don't stop it yet, but listen. This was recorded 795 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 2: in East lost Boyle Heights by your Boy Propaganda. Tap 796 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 2: in with me at prop hip hop dot com. If 797 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 2: you're in the Coldbrew coffee we got Terraform Coldbrew. 798 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 3: You can go there dot com. 799 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: And use promo code hood get twenty percent off get 800 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: yourself some coffee. This was mixed, edited, and mastered by 801 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 2: your boy Matt Alsowski Killing the Beast softly. Check out 802 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 2: his website Mattowsowski dot com. 803 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 3: I'm a spell it for you because I know. 804 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 2: M A T T O S O W s ki 805 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: dot com Matthowsowski dot com. He got more music and 806 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 2: stuff like that on there, so gonna check out The heat. 807 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 2: Politics is a member of cool Zone Media, Executive produced 808 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 2: by Sophie Lichterman, part of the iHeartMedia podcast network. Your 809 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 2: theme music and scoring is also by the one and 810 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 2: nobly matdow Sowski. Still killing the beat softly, So listen, 811 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 2: don't let nobody lie to you. If you understand urban living, 812 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 2: you understand politics. These people is not smarter than you. 813 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 2: We'll see y'all next week.