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Speaker 1: Hi.

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Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 2: and speaker.

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Speaker 1: And this is Sarah Hartunger.

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Speaker 3: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

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Speaker 3: On the side, we are two working parents who love

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Speaker 3: our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 2: the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.

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Speaker 2: This is episode two hundred and thirty one, which is

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Speaker 2: airing in early January. This is our first episode of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. We are looking forward to a great

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Speaker 2: year of best of both worlds episodes. Would love to

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Speaker 2: hear from people what you want to hear from us

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Speaker 2: over the course of the year, so please send in

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Speaker 2: guest ideas, topic ideas, your listener questions. We want all

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Speaker 2: of them. And today's guest, in fact, was a listener request.

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Speaker 2: So Eve Rodsky is going to be joining me for

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Speaker 2: a discussion of how to Find your Unicorn Space. That's

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Speaker 2: her new book about finding your Unicorn space. She is

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Speaker 2: also the author of fair Play, which I know a

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Speaker 2: lot of our listeners have read over the past few years.

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Speaker 2: That's a discussion about how to equitably split both household

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Speaker 2: labor and the mental load associated with it, turning it

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Speaker 2: into a bit of a game. It was actually a

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Speaker 2: rees's Reese Witherspoon's book club selection. It was a New

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Speaker 2: York Times bestseller, so I know we're all very excited

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Speaker 2: about that. Just a quick listener note, this episode contains

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Speaker 2: the interview portion contains a little bit of profanity. So

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Speaker 2: if you're in a situation where you don't want to

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Speaker 2: have that playing out loud, and you know car speakers

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Speaker 2: with kids are at work, just giving you a heads up.

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Speaker 2: It's a great interview though, so please stay tuned for that. So, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: do you have a unicorn space? A unicorn space is

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Speaker 2: that wonderful creative place where you really feel at attached

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Speaker 2: to your own life, invested in your own life, You're

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Speaker 2: doing something just because you love it.

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Speaker 4: What is that for you?

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent my blog that first and foremost. I

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Speaker 3: started that in two thousand and four when I was

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Speaker 3: in med school because I was like, I need something

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Speaker 3: that's just for me, and that was it, and it

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Speaker 3: was purely for many many years. I didn't even have

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Speaker 3: any kind of like side hustle attached to it. There

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Speaker 3: were no ads until like twenty twelve or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I love writing there, and then as an extension of

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Speaker 3: that has been this podcast and my other podcasts. So

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Speaker 3: all of these endeavors, which are all closely linked, are

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Speaker 3: absolutely my unicorn spaces. It's where I feel like I

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Speaker 3: can be myself and share and connect with others, and

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Speaker 3: like the time when I'm doing these activities goes so

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Speaker 3: fast and it feels like it's just for me.

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Speaker 4: So definitely all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in the interview, Eve actually declares this podcast must

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Speaker 2: be my unicorn space, so I guess that's that's probably true.

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Speaker 2: I mean several parts of my work, I'm one class

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Speaker 2: is like would you do this on a nice desert island,

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Speaker 2: And the answer is yes, of course, I'd write on

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Speaker 2: my blog I have. I don't try to make any

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Speaker 2: money for my blog, although it's all related, right, because

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Speaker 2: it builds the platform which then you know, people buy

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Speaker 2: my books or you know, listen to the podcasts, or

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Speaker 2: you know, hire me to speak or things like that,

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Speaker 2: so it's all part of the platform building. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I treat it as just my own expression. There's very

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Speaker 2: little that is optimized about the blog. If I were

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Speaker 2: attempting to make it more of a hot destination, I

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Speaker 2: would definitely do it differently. But I use it more

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Speaker 2: as you know, what I want to write about, and

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Speaker 2: if people want to come read it, that would be great,

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Speaker 2: But if they don't, I guess I'd probably still do it.

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Speaker 2: Singing in a choir is possibly my unicorn space even

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Speaker 2: more I it would be a pure expression of it,

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Speaker 2: because that's that's not numerative at all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's.

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Speaker 2: Just me making music, performing it with fellow singers and

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Speaker 2: enjoy learning difficult things. And I really feel invested in

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Speaker 2: my own life when I am doing that and being

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Speaker 2: a performer a musician in a way, that is something

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Speaker 2: I've always loved doing.

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Speaker 3: I feel like music and art are probably common ones.

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Speaker 3: And my husband one hundred percent would be the same

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Speaker 3: as you. It's his guitar and his like guitar learning,

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Speaker 3: and he's in this like weekly band situation, and I

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Speaker 3: can tell it's like fully fits the bill.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I feel.

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Speaker 3: Like artistic endeavors have got to be it for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and hopefully in the course of this new year

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Speaker 2: of people listening to this in the new year, you

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Speaker 2: can think about what your unicorn space might be, what

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Speaker 2: you would like to challenge yourself to do that is

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Speaker 2: solely for you, but is not just you know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's things we do just for us, like watching Netflix,

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Speaker 2: but it's creative that you see through to completion and

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Speaker 2: that you are willing to share with a community. So

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Speaker 2: those are the three c's that EVI will talk about

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Speaker 2: to really define that unicorn space of what just really

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Speaker 2: makes us the happiest. And of course we talk a

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Speaker 2: lot about fair play too, because I know that we

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Speaker 2: have a lot of listeners who have read that book,

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Speaker 2: and that's probably why she was requested, even though we're

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Speaker 2: very excited about her new book as well. So with

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Speaker 2: that we'll go ahead and listen to Eve. Well, Sarah

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Speaker 2: and I are so delighted to welcome Eve Rodsky to

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Speaker 2: the program. So Eve, can you go ahead and introduce

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Speaker 2: yourself to our listeners.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Laura, my name is Eve Rodsky. I'm the New

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Speaker 4: York Times bestselling author of a book called fair Play

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Speaker 4: and a new book out called Find Your Unicorn Space.

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Speaker 4: And I like alliterations, so I like to call myself

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Speaker 4: an author, attorney, an activist. But I'm not what I

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Speaker 4: did not think i'd be. Laura on my third grade

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Speaker 4: what do you want to be when you grow up? Board,

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Speaker 4: We're probably said, like veterinarian or astronaut. I definitely did

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Speaker 4: not expect to be an expert on the gendered division

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Speaker 4: of labor, which is what I consider myself now. And

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Speaker 4: you have two children, right, I have a third now, yes, yes,

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Speaker 4: So when you so graciously read and blurbed fair Play,

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Speaker 4: there was just a new one that has just come

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Speaker 4: into the world. So now I have Zach who is thirteen,

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Speaker 4: Ben who is ten, and Anna who is five just

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Speaker 4: turned five.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful, wonderful. Have to keep my count straight. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember how many I had.

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Speaker 2: Because I was like, that's four kids, Like, oh no,

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Speaker 2: actually she is five, Yeah exactly, They just well, I

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Speaker 2: think they don't keep coming at this point, but five

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Speaker 2: was good.

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Speaker 1: Three is wonderful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, many of our listeners are professional women,

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Speaker 2: two income families, kids still at home, and so we're

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Speaker 2: definitely going to talk about your new book on Finding

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Speaker 2: your Unicorn Space. But we want to start with fair

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Speaker 2: play because that's what a lot of our listeners are

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Speaker 2: probably familiar with. So tell me what led you, as

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Speaker 2: a lawyer or attorney to keep our injart alliteration here

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Speaker 2: to create the.

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Speaker 4: Fair play system.

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Speaker 1: What was the genesis of that?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think, Laura, they always say, right, research is mesearch,

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Speaker 4: And so what happened to me ten years ago? It's

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Speaker 4: actually the anniversary, very close to the anniversary of my

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Speaker 4: what I like to now call my blueberries breakdown, or

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Speaker 4: at least that's some of my husband, Seth calls it,

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Speaker 4: because ten years ago, after right after my second son,

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Speaker 4: Ben was born, Seth sent me a text that said,

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Speaker 4: I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries, and that led me

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Speaker 4: down an entire new professional journey. Laura, who would know that?

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Speaker 4: He keeps saying, I really wish I'd never said that text,

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Speaker 4: but he's also happy he did because it's definitely changed

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Speaker 4: our lives. But what I don't get to explain in

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Speaker 4: fair Play is really, and I think especially now post

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Speaker 4: COVID or in the midst of this next round of

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Speaker 4: where we are, you know the scene so when I

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Speaker 4: got the I'm surprised you to get Blueberry's text, I

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Speaker 4: was already texting and driving in my car, which is

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Speaker 4: a bad thing. I was racing to get my older son,

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Speaker 4: Zach at his toddler transition program, which we now are

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Speaker 4: finally reckoning with that in America it costs our tire

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Speaker 4: salaries and is about seven minutes long these daycare programs.

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Speaker 4: I had a breast pump and a diaper bag and

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Speaker 4: the passenger seat in my car gives her a newborn

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Speaker 4: baby to return in the backseat of my car and

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Speaker 4: a client contract in my lap. Because I had opted

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Speaker 4: out of the traditional workforce. Now that was ten years ago.

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Speaker 4: Where I used to use the word opted out, I

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Speaker 4: guess now I would say I use the word forced

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Speaker 4: out because I think any professional woman who's not in

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Speaker 4: the traditional workforce has been forced out, or at least

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Speaker 4: in my research, I've never found one woman who hasn't

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Speaker 4: had an experience that felt like a death by a

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Speaker 4: thousand cuts for her. What I remember about that day

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Speaker 4: was as I would hit the brakes because I was

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Speaker 4: racing already I was late to pick up Zach, this

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Speaker 4: pen would sort of back up between my legs, Laura,

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Speaker 4: because I was marking up the contract analogue and it

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Speaker 4: would just sort of stabbed me in the vagina. That's

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Speaker 4: what I remember about that day. So being stabbed in

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Speaker 4: the vagina by a pen is sort of how I

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Speaker 4: think I would describe the entire pandemic situation for all

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Speaker 4: of us women. But it was the first time in

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Speaker 4: my life where I had a reckoning that I did

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Speaker 4: not have the career marriage combo I thought I was

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Speaker 4: going to have. And I pulled over, which we don't

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Speaker 4: do lightly in La, to cry and to really think

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Speaker 4: about how cliche that my marriage was going to end

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Speaker 4: over being the fulfiller of my husband's smoothie needs.

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Speaker 2: Want those blue bears got ye and your responsibility to

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Speaker 2: procure them?

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Speaker 4: It was my responsibility to procure them, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I just kept thinking. You know, I think the sad

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Speaker 4: part was I thought I was so unique then, And

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Speaker 4: I think that's why I decided to write fair Play eventually,

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Speaker 4: because as I start to research this issue and realize

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Speaker 4: I'm not unique at all, And as see Wright Mills,

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Speaker 4: my favorite so sociologists says, you know, private lives or

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Speaker 4: public issues or public troubles, I think I realized back then,

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Speaker 4: though you know, I'm the product of a single mother,

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Speaker 4: I had vowed I would have an equal partner. I'm

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Speaker 4: a Harvard Trade mediator. I'm literally trained in difficult conversations,

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Speaker 4: that's my specialty. And still I found myself silently suffering,

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Speaker 4: crying over the resentment and unfairness that I perceived was

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Speaker 4: unique to my marriage. So you came up with.

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Speaker 2: This system and one of the things that I think

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean, obviously gender division of labor is

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Speaker 2: not exactly a new topic, as you said, it's not

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Speaker 2: the first person perhaps to experience this, but you've turned

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Speaker 2: it almost into a bit of a game, right that

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Speaker 2: you really think through your systems and what the work

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Speaker 2: is in any household, and then set up, you know,

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Speaker 2: ownership of the different tasks. So can you can you

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Speaker 2: describe that system a little bit for our listeners?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely so for me, you know, Laura, as I started

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Speaker 4: to to understand that this was not just a meat issue,

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Speaker 4: that our time choice is women, which is where you

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Speaker 4: and I intersect. While we may have more time, it's

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Speaker 4: often chopped up into interruptions and little pieces and expectations

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Speaker 4: and defaults. That's why I called myself the she fault,

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Speaker 4: not because it just applies to heterosisgender relationships or marriages,

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Speaker 4: but because this is an issue that you know, two

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Speaker 4: thirds or more of what it takes to run a

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Speaker 4: home and family fall on women. I mean, that is

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Speaker 4: the statistic. I was undeniably living that day, but I

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Speaker 4: didn't even know. And so I think what any you know,

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Speaker 4: self respecting professional women would probably do at that time.

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Speaker 4: After I started to read about the words invisible work,

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Speaker 4: mental load, second shift, like you said, that have been

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Speaker 4: around since the nineteen sixties, you know, I started to

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Speaker 4: make a spreadsheet because dah, you know it should be

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Speaker 4: easy if it's invisible, right, Laura, I could just make

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Speaker 4: it visible and then solve all my problem. So the

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Speaker 4: system was actually not a system when it started. It's

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Speaker 4: probably started the way a lot of us start, which

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Speaker 4: is a list. And it was a really good list.

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Speaker 4: I'm very proud of that list. It was called the

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Speaker 4: I Do Spreadsheet. It had ninety eight tabs and two

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Speaker 4: thousand items of invisible work from women's sourced across now

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Speaker 4: seventeen countries, but then across the country. Remember this is

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Speaker 4: ten years ago. I didn't have social media. I didn't

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Speaker 4: have a Laura to tell me anything I had myself,

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Speaker 4: and what to expect when you're expecting, which just tells

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Speaker 4: you that your child's the size of a jelly bean, right,

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Speaker 4: So I didn't realize this was also maybe happening to

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Speaker 4: other women. It was not a sophisticated conversation as it

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Speaker 4: is now. I credit part of that to you, Laura.

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Speaker 4: I really thank you for your work, but I think

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Speaker 4: you know I do. Spreadsheet was a very cathartic experience.

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Speaker 4: It was women who I didn't even know calling me

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Speaker 4: up saying, you know, Eve, you forgot sunscreen. And I'd say, well,

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Speaker 4: obviously you don't know how to use Excel because you

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Speaker 4: have to go to scroll a tab seventy two under

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Speaker 4: Medical and Health Living. If you scrolled down there, I

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Speaker 4: promise you under line sixteen, there's two minutes for sunscreen.

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Speaker 4: And then they would say, well, two minutes for the application,

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Speaker 4: but you forgot the thirty minutes for the chase. And

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh yeah, I forgot thirty minutes for

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Speaker 4: the chase, you know. And it was this beautiful cathartic

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Speaker 4: experience and made me realize that I was not alone.

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Speaker 4: That was what it was for it was a communal

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Speaker 4: experience to realize, Wow, there's a lot of invisible work

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Speaker 4: that is happening in modern households. But when I sent

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Speaker 4: it to Seth Laura, the nineteen million megamte spreadsheet, and

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Speaker 4: I definitely did it with all the context of being

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Speaker 4: a communications specialist. And I say that sarcastically. I just

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Speaker 4: sent it to him with the subject line, you know,

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Speaker 4: can't wait to discuss and why that's important That he

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Speaker 4: didn't respond. He gave me a monkey emoji back, the

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Speaker 4: see no evil monkey emoji. I didn't even get. The

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Speaker 4: courtesy of a response was that it was a very

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Speaker 4: important day where I had a reckoning that list alone

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Speaker 4: don't work. That we've been making lists for one hundred

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Speaker 4: years possibly, And so that day I had a decision

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Speaker 4: to either do what my friend said got her more fairness,

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Speaker 4: and she said, it's just three words, Eve, It's called

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Speaker 4: court ordered custody. So that was an option or not

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Speaker 4: I could lose myself and resign myself. I did everything

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Speaker 4: to make this beautiful seduce spreadsheet and it didn't work, resign

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Speaker 4: myself to doing it all, or I actually had a

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Speaker 4: third option, which is what I chose, and it was

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Speaker 4: this idea that what if I became my own client

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Speaker 4: and my day job is I work for families that

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Speaker 4: look like the HBO show Succession, And your listeners should

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Speaker 4: feel bad for me because it's a lot like the

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Speaker 4: family and that show. It's very triggering work. But what

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Speaker 4: I do for these families is I create systems. I'm

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Speaker 4: an organizational management specialist. I design, through laws, through governance,

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Speaker 4: through organizational management concepts, systems to make really difficult decisions

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Speaker 4: around you know, financial issues, governance issues, decisions. And so

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Speaker 4: one day I said, you know what, I'm going to

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Speaker 4: ask a very profound question. What if we treat our

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Speaker 4: homes as our most important organizations? That became the most

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Speaker 4: important question I think I've asked in ten years, because,

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Speaker 4: like one man said, he said, oh, you mean like

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Speaker 4: the opposite of my home where we decide who's taking

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Speaker 4: the dog out right when it's about to take it

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Speaker 4: on the rug. And I said, yes, whatever, that is

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Speaker 4: the opposite of that. And then I start to understand

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Speaker 4: that systems, the idea of systems in the home. Even

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Speaker 4: though we have fifty years of knowledge about how to

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Speaker 4: create systems for organizations, none of us give the respect

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Speaker 4: and rigor to our homes the way we do other organizations.

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Speaker 4: Even my aunt Marian's Majan group Laura has more clearly

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Speaker 4: defined expectations than most homes. You don't bring snack twice

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Speaker 4: to that group, you're out. And so the system, right,

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Speaker 4: the system is based on this question, what if you

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Speaker 4: treated your home as your most important organization?

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a good, good idea. So we're going

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Speaker 2: to take a quick break and be right back with

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Speaker 2: Eve talking more about fair play, and then I promise

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Speaker 2: we will get to it.

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Speaker 1: Unicorn spaces well, I am back.

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Speaker 2: With Eve Rodsky, who is sharing her wisdom on how

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Speaker 2: she came up with the fair play system. So we've got,

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Speaker 2: you know, the list that doesn't work of all the

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Speaker 2: stuff that Eve does, and then she sends it to

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Speaker 2: her husband and he's not going to look at the list.

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Speaker 2: We need to come up with systems. And one of

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Speaker 2: the cool things about this was the idea of like

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Speaker 2: complete ownership of a task. And I think that this

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Speaker 2: is something that like you said, you know, your aunt

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Speaker 2: has to bring the snack, like she's going to bring it,

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Speaker 2: she's going to think about what it is or coordinate

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Speaker 2: with other she's gonna bring it, she's gonna, you know,

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Speaker 2: dish it up, she's gonna take it home afterwards. There's

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Speaker 2: there's not this you know, lack of clarity about who

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Speaker 2: is doing what with what.

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Speaker 4: And hey, you're a partner, but you forgot to remind

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Speaker 4: me to bring the snack from my sack, to remind

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Speaker 4: me to bring Yeah, it doesn't work like that, even

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Speaker 4: in the Maja, it doesn't know like that.

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Speaker 2: And one of my favorite examples of the whole complete

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Speaker 2: ownership that you gave in fair Play was that if

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Speaker 2: somebody is responsible for let's say baseball, and getting the

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Speaker 2: kid to baseball with all their equipment right, and they

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Speaker 2: forget the batting helmet and the child borrows a batting

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Speaker 2: helmet and gets lice as a result, they own the lice.

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Speaker 4: They own the lice. I think that you just signed out,

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Speaker 4: you signed you just you described it so beautifully. They

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Speaker 4: own the lice. You know what? This is the interesting part.

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Speaker 4: It's not hard because we you know, we don't we

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Speaker 4: don't walk. You're not going into your producer Lauren saying,

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Speaker 4: you know, hey, what should I be talking about today?

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Speaker 4: I'll just wait here to tell me what to do.

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Speaker 4: I mean, none of us exists in that type of

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Speaker 4: lack of agency in any place other than our home organization.

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Speaker 4: And so I think what was really important for me

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Speaker 4: was asking in seventeen countries the second, I'd say most

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Speaker 4: important question I ever asked, and this exactly gets to

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Speaker 4: the EU and the lice. It was how did mustard

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Speaker 4: get into your refrigerator? I love that question so much

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Speaker 4: because there's condiments all over the world. You can submen

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Speaker 4: your condiment. But what was so beautiful about it was

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Speaker 4: that especially in heterocys gender partnerships, and this happened in

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Speaker 4: the Nordic countries that we look at as shangri la.

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Speaker 4: It happened everywhere. It was a universal theme that I

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Speaker 4: heard from women. I'm the one responsible for seeing them.

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Speaker 4: My second son, Johnny, likes French as you know, yellow

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Speaker 4: mustard because he won't eat his protein. He'll choke on

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Speaker 4: his protein, and I need him to eat his protein.

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Speaker 4: That conception is something we get paid big bucks for

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Speaker 4: in the workplace, coming up with new ideas, noticing and

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Speaker 4: then I would hear also from women that they were

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Speaker 4: the ones who were monitoring the mustard for when it's

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Speaker 4: running low and getting stakeholder buy in from their family

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Speaker 4: for whatever they needed from the grocery list. That's also

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Speaker 4: another phase we know from the workplace. It's called planning,

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Speaker 4: and we also get paid the big bucks for that.

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Speaker 4: And then I would hear the crux of oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: and then I send my partner to the store and

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Speaker 4: oh my god, Eve, you want me to trust it

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Speaker 4: with my living will. The he can't even bring home

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Speaker 4: the right type of mustard. He brings some spicy dijon

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Speaker 4: every time, and I ask for frenches yellow mustard. And

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Speaker 4: why that's so important is because as a presenting problem,

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Speaker 4: that's not the real problem, which is what we say

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Speaker 4: as mediators. The real problem is the worst thing that

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Speaker 4: can happen to your organization when you lose accountability and trust.

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Speaker 4: And so once you recognize that it's actually stuff around it,

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Speaker 4: the gender and stuff around it, why we don't value

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Speaker 4: you our own time, Laura. You know you've been devoting

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Speaker 4: your whole life to understanding time. That's harder. But if

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Speaker 4: you can actually believe that your time is diamonds and

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Speaker 4: you deserve as much time choice over your day as

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Speaker 4: your male counterparts, then you can The system is not

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Speaker 4: that hard because ownership is actually a very very conception,

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Speaker 4: planning and execution. Staying together is the way that you

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Speaker 4: increase motivation and increase standards. And that's really it's not

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Speaker 4: it's not rocket science, but it is. It is hard

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Speaker 4: for people to hear because it's definitely not the way

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Speaker 4: they do it. We lose accountability and trust in most

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Speaker 4: of our home organizations because we break up the cognitive labor,

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Speaker 4: the conception and planning from the execution.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sadly, I am the one in our family who

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Speaker 2: comes home with the wrong kind of mustard.

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Speaker 4: But how you can do that's how you can do

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Speaker 4: what you do, right. I mean, I think that that's

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Speaker 4: the beauty is I see you.

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Speaker 1: Nobody likes that bustard, Laura, why did you buy that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, not.

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Speaker 4: Only mustard, but it happened to anybody. It's just that

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Speaker 4: the typical person it's happening to is women. But I

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Speaker 4: do think that it can happen to any family structure,

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Speaker 4: any family.

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Speaker 2: But I want to get into that idea a little

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Speaker 2: bit more of because breaking apart the accountability because it

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Speaker 2: doesn't not being able to have full responsibility for something

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Speaker 2: can be pretty disempowering.

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Speaker 1: As well.

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Speaker 2: And so why you know, when people probably hear first

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Speaker 2: about you know, your system or any other sort of

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Speaker 2: thing that's supposed to create a more equal division of labor,

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Speaker 2: the person being is like, yay, let me sign up

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Speaker 2: my husband, right, And it's usually the person who feels

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Speaker 2: they have been doing more than their fair shoe wants

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Speaker 2: to sign up the person who has been doing less

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Speaker 2: in any form of couple. But what's in it for

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Speaker 2: the person who may have been doing less? I mean,

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Speaker 2: why should they want to do like, why should you

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Speaker 2: know your husband want to do anything other than send

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Speaker 2: you a monkey emoji on this? I mean, what's in

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Speaker 2: it for them? Because, as you know, with mediating anything, like,

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Speaker 2: nobody's going to accept something where they feel like they

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Speaker 2: just lose. So what's in it for them?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's a great question, I think. So now that

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Speaker 4: I have probably the longest longitudinal study of unpaid labor

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Speaker 4: now going over ten years and thousands of interviews, what

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Speaker 4: I always heard from men, again especially once married to women,

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Speaker 4: was you know, women, as we know, are feeling overwhelmed,

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00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 4: burn doubt, they just want to take off their plate.

436
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 4: But men The number one thing that men said that

437
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 4: they hated about home life. Wasn't that they didn't want

438
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 4: to do more. It was that when I tried to

439
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 4: do more, I have no place to do that. In

440
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 4: organizational management terms, if I was coming into an organization

441
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 4: and I heard that, I'd call that a psychological safety

442
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 4: issue where someone doesn't know their role. And so I

443
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 4: almost think it's actually why fair Play became a love

444
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 4: letter to men. I actually think it's worse having control

445
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 4: and overwhelm is horrible, but I almost think it's worse

446
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 4: to come in with no psychological safety into a place,

447
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 4: your home organization, where you think you're supposed to be

448
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 4: a part, and not know where and when to pick

449
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 4: up which mantle. And so I'll just tell you a

450
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 4: one minute story actually from the horse's mouth from this

451
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 4: man Richard, who recounted the story of his life post

452
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 4: fair Play. Where you know in a system, Laura, as

453
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 4: you know, but your listeners who may be less familiar

454
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 4: with systems although they know it from their workplaces. A

455
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 4: system is that so you don't have decision fatigue. So again,

456
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 4: so you're not deciding who's taking the dog out every

457
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 4: single time right before it's about to take it back

458
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 4: on the rug you want to customize your defaults so

459
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 4: that you can say, oh, garbage, I never have to

460
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 4: think about it. Right, That's how your that's the ownership mindset,

461
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 4: is how you lighten your mental load. But this man,

462
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 4: Richard understood and Amy that part of fair play is

463
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 4: understanding that building your deck together, right, Understanding what you

464
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 4: want to do with your time again, which intersects with

465
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 4: your work, Laura, is a very important part of that onboarding.

466
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 4: Going to who does what with the fairplay system, which

467
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 4: is a metaphor of one hundred cards, is just a list.

468
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: So what makes a system a system is buy in,

469
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 4: collective buy in, going through your deck together to say,

470
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 4: do we care about school service? Actually no, none of

471
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 4: us are going to volunteer this year. We are done

472
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 4: with that, burning that card. What about watching the kids? Well, yeah,

473
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 4: I have a five year old, so sadly she still

474
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 4: a jests if I don't watch her. So I have

475
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 4: to keep that card in my deck. Packing and unpacking backpacks. Well,

476
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: I'd like to get my kids to do that for themselves,

477
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 4: but someone has to oversee that, right. So you start

478
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 4: to have these conversations about what you want in your deck.

479
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 4: So Richard and Amy decide to keep magical beings in

480
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 4: their deck because they told me had a great conversation

481
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 4: about loving the two fairy growing up and Sanna and

482
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 4: Amy's irish. So there's even something called like lucky leprechaun.

483
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: I think it's called or some leprechaun, And Richard says,

484
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 4: I will hold that card right with full ownership. So

485
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 4: as you can imagine the first time their second daughter

486
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 4: loses sorry, this is her second tooth, second daughter, second tooth,

487
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 4: the tooth fairy doesn't come. So back to accountability and trust.

488
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 4: What Amy says she would have done before fair play

489
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: is use her verbal assassin communication to say, you've lost

490
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 4: trust in me, You've ruined our child's life. There's no

491
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,239
Speaker 4: magic that will ever come back in her life. And

492
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 4: eviscerated him for the mistake. And then Richard told me

493
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: he would have blamed Amy for not reminding him to

494
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 4: carry through and to put the dollar under the pillow.

495
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: After fair play, what Richard tells me is that he

496
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 4: feels empowered to carry through his mistake back to the

497
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: own the lice. He emails at gmail dot com and

498
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 4: creepily he gets a response that he prints out for

499
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 4: his daughter that says, sorry, I'm backloaded on teeth. I'm

500
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 4: going to come to night. He prints it out and says,

501
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 4: oh wow, look the tooth fairy has been backloaded on

502
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 4: teeth and now she's coming tonight. And guess what. When

503
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 4: she's late, she brings double the money.

504
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: And it's interest an early lesson.

505
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 4: And lakeees and I don't know, there is something so

506
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 4: empowering about that story. It's such a small story. I

507
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 4: have a million other stories that are bigger that can

508
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,159
Speaker 4: tell you about sort of household transformation, but that's a

509
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: recent story that it feels very powerful to me because

510
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 4: it's so small. You can start where you are, but

511
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: you can see the difference in the dynamic of how

512
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 4: that couple is looking at each other in terms of

513
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: accountability and trust, and that's what's in it for men.

514
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: I love that magical beings is a card. Yes, of course,

515
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: something that one needs to think of. And there's all

516
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: sorts of magical beings that turns out some like the

517
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: Leprechaun I didn't even know of.

518
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 4: So there you go.

519
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeahs to the topic of time, because of course, one

520
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: of the upsides of you know, having systems is it

521
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 2: frees up mental space. It frees up time when you

522
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: share ownership of the different tasks, that also frees up

523
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 2: more of our time, so feel less overwhelmed, and some

524
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: of that we can use for what you are now

525
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: calling unicorn time unicorn.

526
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 4: Space in your life.

527
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: So Eve, what is this unicorn?

528
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: Not really the creature, but when we refer to our

529
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: lives speaking of these magical beings.

530
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: Well, yes exactly, I love magical beings. And for you know,

531
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: the idea Laura, right, that we can have sustained attention

532
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 4: for things that we love as women, not our time

533
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 4: interrupted every three minutes and forty two seconds like it

534
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 4: was during one time journal study in the pandemic is

535
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 4: still highly subversive. And the idea that we have the

536
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 4: space to dream, to idate, to tinker, to do things

537
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 4: that make us fundamentally who we are. Those active suits

538
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 4: often get devalued the way women's time gets devalued, the

539
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 4: way anything women does, you know, gets the value. I mean, look,

540
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 4: we call breastfeeding free in this country when it's really

541
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 4: a full time job of eighteen hundred hours a year.

542
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 4: So why I call the unicorn space is because of

543
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 4: course I want people to have women to have the

544
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 4: space the space to dream, the space to believe that

545
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: they can devote time to the things that they love.

546
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 4: But like the mythical equine, right like the unicorn, it

547
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 4: doesn't exist. It doesn't exist until we claim it. We

548
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 4: put those fundamental boundaries around our time, and too many

549
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 4: women were saying to me that they did not believe

550
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 4: they had a permission to be unavailable from their roles

551
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 4: as parents, partners, and our professionals. And if they felt unavailable, Laura,

552
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 4: it was maybe to get a manicure. It was maybe

553
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 4: to do some commodified wellness that society allows for us

554
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 4: to do. Run in the park. But this is something

555
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: completely different. This is not self care. This is not friendships,

556
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 4: which are important. The true antidote to burnout in what

557
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: I've seen now in my happiness and identity research, is

558
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 4: being interested in your own life. And I ask everybody

559
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 4: out there, what is your unicorn space?

560
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: For Laura?

561
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 4: I will I'm going to put words in your mouth

562
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 4: and say, I believe your work is probably your unicorn space,

563
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 4: or at least one of them this podcast, because you

564
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 4: have the three c's of what the second book found

565
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 4: in Creative Women, which was a curiosity to understand something differently,

566
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 4: which you did and you were revolutionary in your TED talk.

567
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 4: The connection, the ability to share it with the world,

568
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 4: which is really scary, but you took that step. And

569
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: then the most important thing is the completion, right that

570
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 4: even if you're on a podcast you don't like the

571
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 4: way your guests are speaking, are you ask the wrong questions,

572
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 4: you still edit it and get it out there. And

573
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 4: those three things of curiosity plus connection plus completion were

574
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: the anecdote to burnout that was connected and associated with

575
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 4: people who were self reported that they were able to

576
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 4: thrive during the pandemic. And it's not just about economic privilege.

577
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 4: It's actually the opposite. The people who have more economic

578
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 4: privilege get more obsessed with defining success in extrinsic milestones,

579
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 4: and they really can lose their intrinsically motivated values in

580
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: a way that people who didn't identify as the one

581
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 4: percent were able to tell me that creative capital was

582
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 4: important to them. The higher we get up on that

583
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 4: success wrong, the more I saw that we were losing

584
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: our fundamental values and identity.

585
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: Now do you think everybody has one of these things?

586
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are not

587
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,959
Speaker 2: really accustomed to thinking of themselves as a creative person.

588
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: And I remember one of the exercises in your book

589
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: was that you think about yourself on an island, but

590
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: not like a survivor style, like you're you're gonna be

591
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: with comfy chairs and food and you know Wi Fi.

592
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: But if you were off there by yourself for you know,

593
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: a month or two, like, what would you do? And

594
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: I suspect some amount of people would be like, well,

595
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't write a novel. I'd like, you know, watch

596
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: streaming TV. So we do we have? I mean, do

597
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: we all have these things? Or I mean if we're

598
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: not moments that we do what we do, tell them Okay.

599
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 4: Well we don't. And that's the thing I think. And

600
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: you know Professor Lori Santos, I spend a lot of

601
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 4: time in happiness Labs, Laura and and one of my

602
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 4: favorite was Professor Laurie Santos. She teaches the most popular

603
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 4: class at Yale called the Sides of Happiness or I

604
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 4: don't know what the class is called exactly today, but

605
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 4: something like that. She says something really beautiful about making

606
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 4: your leisure time more nutritious and what we find in

607
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 4: terms of mental health and longevity is that you know, Look,

608
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 4: your listeners, I'm here to tell you that you know

609
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: like that. I'm not a big inspirational quote person, but

610
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 4: you know, like the Vivian Green quote that I do love,

611
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 4: which is life is not waiting for the storm to pass.

612
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: It's learning to dance in the rain. So many of

613
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: us don't dance in the rain. We freaking drown in

614
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,479
Speaker 4: the rain. And we think possibly that maybe you know,

615
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 4: zoning out on Netflix is going to bring us that umbrella.

616
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 4: But what we see now is that's called hedonic well being.

617
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: And if I can nerd out for a minute, that

618
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 4: is associated with short term happiness. But there's something called

619
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 4: you demonic wellbeing, which is what's this. It's the intersection

620
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 4: of meaning and happiness. And we don't always have that

621
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: because a lot of us have meaning without happiness. That's

622
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 4: called wiping asses and doing dishes. And I know I

623
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 4: have meaning and raising my kids, but believe me, it

624
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 4: is not happy in the moment for a lot of times.

625
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 4: For me. Other times I do have happiness without meaning,

626
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 4: and that's the Netflix binging plus emotional eating that I

627
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 4: did throughout the entire pandemic. But when you're at that

628
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 4: intersection of meaning and happiness. Like I said, that curiosity

629
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 4: plus connection plus completion, that flow state, whether like I said,

630
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 4: I put words in your mouth when you're on that

631
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 4: Ted stage, it is really really important. It is not

632
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: optional actually, because we need that umbrella if we want

633
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: to have mental health and longevity, because right now it's

634
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 4: not good. Women are being diagnosed twice as likely to

635
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 4: be diagnosed with anxiety disorders as men. Women are, as

636
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 4: we saw, burning out to the point where due to

637
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 4: childcare concerns plus everything that has been on our plate,

638
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: we are you know, being forced out of the workforce

639
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: and droves. It's and we have labor force participation lowess

640
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 4: it's ever been. So it's not a great scene for

641
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 4: women right now or for other marginalized populations and creative capital.

642
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 4: And it doesn't have to be a you know, a

643
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 4: paint brush. It could be with Laura did like I said,

644
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 4: the Ted talk. You know, one person said to me

645
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 4: on the desert Island that they would cross pollinate mangoes

646
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 4: and pineapples and make a mang apple because they were

647
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 4: interested in horticulture. I don't care what it is, but

648
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 4: being interested in your own life is something I can't

649
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 4: tell you what it is, but I can tell you

650
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 4: how to find it, or at least how other people

651
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 4: find it. And that was really what the second book

652
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 4: was about, inspiring people to start really thinking critically about

653
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 4: their active legacy, what they want to be defined as now,

654
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: not later.

655
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 2: Now, well, just to get curious, right, like it, don't

656
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: have to think about what's my passion because it might

657
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 2: not be one thing for the rest of your life,

658
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: and it might not be, you know, the perfect thing,

659
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: but just you know, be curious about different things.

660
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: And notice, when you're happy, that's it.

661
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: You're good. That's like all about the life. I think

662
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: you did a beautiful job there. It's literally that's it.

663
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 4: Be summering up, you're a great summarizer, curious and then

664
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: feeling the clues. I think what was so interesting to

665
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: me was probably the most interesting finding to me, was

666
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 4: that happiness, the pursuit of happiness, makes you more sad

667
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 4: because the idea that I'm going to be happy, right,

668
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 4: I'm going to gratitude journal myself to death, right, it doesn't.

669
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 4: It doesn't work that way. Happiness has a place in

670
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 4: our society, but what we're finding now is that it

671
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 4: works best as a clue. Your feelings are clues. And

672
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 4: Robin Arzon talks about this beautifully because she's a highly

673
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 4: creative peloton instructor. She creates these beautiful classes and uses

674
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 4: great music, and she used to be an attorney and

675
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 4: she moved to this fitness world. And she talked about

676
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 4: how for her the clue wasn't only happiness, because she

677
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: loved it when she was in teaching teaching classes, but

678
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 4: it was jealousy was her clue. That she was very

679
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 4: jealous when she talked to her friends who were doing

680
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 4: things other than being a lawyer, and listening to that

681
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 4: jealousy was important for her as well. So feelings are

682
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 4: our clues. And I hate the word passion because you

683
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 4: know what, when I'm you know, drowning in invisible labor,

684
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 4: and you know, people are calling me Zach's mom, I

685
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 4: don't even have a name anymore, and I have a

686
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: sand in my thong because I've been crawling through a

687
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: freaking sandbox with my kid. What are you passionate about?

688
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm going to give someone the finger.

689
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 4: You know, someone asked me that. But I do think

690
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 4: the idea of what this book explores, which is values

691
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 4: based curiosity, because, as one person said to me, well,

692
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: I am curious about scrolling my friend's Venmo transactions. I

693
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: was like, okay, that's awesome. I didn't realize you can

694
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 4: scroll Venmo to see what other people are purchasing. Apparently

695
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 4: you can, and I've been doing it lately. She showed

696
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 4: me how, and I was like, whoa, this is really weird.

697
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 4: My friends like, like, they apparently have a lot of dogs,

698
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 4: because there's a lot of dogs sitting on there. But

699
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: that not that type of curiosity, really curiosity that aligns

700
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 4: with your values, and our values change, and so that's

701
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 4: why I encour people and I have some exercises to

702
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 4: really re examine and understand your values. Now what are

703
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 4: your values today? For me, I'm all in on gender

704
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 4: justice and community, creating actual physical Unicorn spaces Laura. But

705
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 4: a value that's very Jewish that I had in my

706
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 4: life for a long time was obligation. And I said,

707
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: you know what, I'm sort of done with obligation for

708
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 4: a while. I'm sick of being obliged to wipe those

709
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 4: and do those dishes, and I want to find a

710
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 4: new way. So I retire to value obligation, and I

711
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 4: brought two more values to the forefront. And so it's

712
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 4: a lot of understanding yourself, but really doing it with

713
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: some compassion because as you said earlier, it's this is

714
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 4: not something you know, what makes you uniquely you and

715
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: how do you share that with the world is not

716
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 4: a question that we're typically asked at a typical cocktail party. Yeah, exactly.

717
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: Well, so this has been great.

718
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 2: We've been hearing all about, you know, how to achieve

719
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: fear play and how to figure out out what we're

720
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: going to do in our Unicorn space, the things that

721
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: make us feel connected to our own life, the things

722
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: we want to have as our legacy of how we

723
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: enjoyed life, which is a great way to you know,

724
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 2: get this to our question we always ask at the

725
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: end of our episodes, which is about our love of

726
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: the week, something that you are really loving right now.

727
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: And this may not be a pure Unicorn space thing

728
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: because I'm doing it with my kids, but I actually

729
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 2: really do like it. Which is building complicated lego structures.

730
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: So this is going to air in early January, but

731
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: we're recording this in December, so we've been doing various

732
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: legos Christmas sets I love my ten year old and

733
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 2: twelve year old, and I did a Santa's visit house.

734
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: I think we're going to go buy the one at

735
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: Target that's the Elf Clubhouse, because that looks really cool too.

736
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: But it's, you know, just.

737
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: Something that's very fun and you know, you kind of

738
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: really get into it and it's semi creative. I mean,

739
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: you're making this thing that didn't exist before. And so

740
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: I've really been enjoying the Lego Christmas sets. Love I

741
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: love you so much.

742
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 4: For me, I would say part of my unicorn space,

743
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: which is to inspire other women in near unicorn space.

744
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 4: My love of the week has been three or four

745
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: different women that I've got I've got to watch just

746
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 4: through social media that have been sharing their unbelievable unicorn

747
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 4: spaces with me. One of them, I will shout out

748
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 4: my friend who's a confectionery roboticist and her name is Abigail,

749
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 4: and so she was sharing some of our holiday creations

750
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 4: with me. She makes like movable gingerbread houses and so

751
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: same thing very holiday for me. But I don't. I

752
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 4: can't make a movable gingerbread house, but I have been

753
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 4: inspired to bake again. It's one of my favorite things

754
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 4: to do, and also dance dances come back in my life.

755
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: I got to see West Side Story this week. A

756
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 4: few of my friends are involved in that production, and

757
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 4: so just pulling up Jerome Robbins and trying to learn

758
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 4: a couple of sort of you know, dance moves and

759
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: sort of going back into Latin dance. I used to

760
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 4: love salsa and tango. So this week I've sort of

761
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 4: been down a rabbit hole inspired by Latin dance and

762
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 4: gingerbread house baking and can you combine those two? Yeah,

763
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 4: I was like, can.

764
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: I what can I do with these two things?

765
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 4: Exactly?

766
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: It's like a board game, you know, and you have

767
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: like two disparate cards and come up with a story

768
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: of them together.

769
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 4: Well, it's so funny you just said that because I'm

770
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: sending you that. Actually I actually created a remix game

771
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 4: which does that, which has it's a Cards against Humanity

772
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: where there are fifty cards. You're getting one in the

773
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 4: mail in your influencer box. But it's a really fun,

774
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 4: fun Cards against Humanity that I would ask you to

775
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 4: play with your kids, where you remas. My friend's card

776
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 4: was art and then I had ax throwing. She's been

777
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 4: really angry about what's happening with reproductive rights. So I

778
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 4: said to her, why don't you start creating some rage art.

779
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 4: And so she's taking my idea of doing some protest art.

780
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 4: And then we're going to go to one of those

781
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 4: ax throwing places, Laura and literally make art by throwing

782
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 4: hatchets at her art rage art. So who knows? Who

783
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: knows what your remix will be. You can be a

784
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 4: roboticist who combines it with confections as Abigail, but thinking

785
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: about curiosities of what you could do even you know what,

786
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 4: even if it's just five minutes a day, Bring a

787
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,839
Speaker 4: spiritual friend along, bring a you know, accountability partner with

788
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 4: you to some of these. You know, you share your

789
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 4: curiosities with the world because you never know where it's

790
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 4: going to lead you. You just don't.

791
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: You never know. Well, this has been great.

792
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 2: So Eve Ronsky again is the author of Find Your

793
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: Unicorn Space, which is a brand new book. She's also

794
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: the author of fair Play, which has been out for

795
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: a few years but definitely worth checking out as well.

796
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: Where can our listeners find you?

797
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 4: Yes, everything related to these themes are on fair Play Life.

798
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 4: We definitely are most active on Instagram, but sort of

799
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 4: the darker, angrier version of all that is that Eve Rodsky.

800
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: More of the rape, more of the rage, the Instagram side,

801
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: and the dark angry side.

802
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, the dark angry side is my personal Instagram. You

803
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 4: can find me there. That's sort of the rage side

804
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: of the rage art and more of the art side

805
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 4: is on the fair Play Life Instagram handle. But we

806
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 4: answered DMS, we'd love for you to share with the

807
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 4: world what you love to do. Like I said, my

808
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 4: love of the week was seeing women in their full power,

809
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 4: whether it was crocheting Harry Potter dolls making their robotic cakes.

810
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 4: Another woman showed me her she want to ribbon and dressage,

811
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 4: which I didn't really understand. That's I guess apparently some

812
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 4: version of I won't even say it, but you've got

813
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 4: you'll know out there what it means. I didn't know.

814
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 4: I'm from the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Yeah, I don't.

815
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: Didn't have any horns, the fancy horses there.

816
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 4: We had power play and methadone clinics. We did not

817
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: have horses.

818
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: No, no, all right, Well, thank you so much for

819
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: joining us.

820
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 4: Thanks Laura, so good to be here.

821
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 2: Well that was an awesome interview. Great to hear from

822
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: Eve Rodsky. She is such a character and I always

823
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 2: love listening to her.

824
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: So we Our question this.

825
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: Week is from a listener who has a very related

826
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: question to Unicorn Space, which is how do you let

827
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: go of guilt when you go to pursue.

828
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: Your own activities sometimes?

829
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: So I think we have slightly different feelings here, Sarah,

830
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 2: So why don't you go ahead and talk about yours?

831
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would love to say like, I don't have

832
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: any guilt. I don't feel like I have tons of guilt,

833
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 3: but I still don't feel like this is a non

834
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: issue or a non challenge. I do think that looking

835
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 3: at my week as a whole always helps. This week,

836
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 3: I had a couple of nights where I had late commitments.

837
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 3: I had a work meeting one night, and then we

838
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 3: had our Patreon meet up which was really found the

839
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: other night. And both of those times or nanny put

840
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 3: the kids to bed one night, my husband to the other,

841
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: and I definitely was like the guilt was seeping in

842
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: a little bit, but zooming out and thinking about the

843
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 3: whole one hundred and sixty eight hours and being like, Okay,

844
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 3: well that's two out of seven and I'm probably doing

845
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 3: bedtime the other five. That definitely really really helped. So

846
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 3: just having a more holistic perspective and not focusing on

847
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 3: like the one Wednesday or whatever, when I actually have

848
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: something that's for myself. I also, you know it's a

849
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: little cliche, but like I am a better person when

850
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 3: I do things for myself. So if I want to

851
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 3: be you know, able to be nice and calm with

852
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: my children rather than you know, a tired, reactive, mean mom,

853
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 3: then I need to sometimes serve my own needs. So

854
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: sometimes and that's what I sometimes find that line of

855
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 3: thinking a little bit martyrristic, like, oh, I can only

856
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 3: enjoy myself so that I can be a better mom.

857
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 3: Like I don't love that trope. But at the same time,

858
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 3: like I'm a human. I need to take care of

859
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 3: myself and so like if workouts help me to stay seen,

860
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 3: it is going to benefit everyone else. So I can

861
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 3: just appreciate that as a necessary part of self care.

862
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am a human.

863
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 4: You are a human.

864
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: All of our listeners are humans, and as such, we

865
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 2: have our own interests. Like that's because we are a human,

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00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: we are not defined solely in our relationship to other people,

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00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: whether that be our family members or our work for

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00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 2: that matter, that is not the sum total of who

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00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: you are. And so it's fine to have an extra

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00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: space for that.

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00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

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00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: I don't feel guilt. I mean partly because I do

873
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: have that one hundred and sixty eight hour perspective and

874
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: it is just so imprinted on my brain that I know,

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00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: if I take one night to go do choir practice,

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00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: I am probably the one doing bedtime the other six nights.

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00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 2: And heck, I probably am doing bedtime when I come

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00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: home from choir practice, because like the kids have somehow

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00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: not wound up in bed. So I mean, this is

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00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: just the reality. Even if I do another night, I mean,

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00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: it's rarely more than two nights a week that I'm gone,

882
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: and so then yes, the other five are all on me.

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00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: And if that's the case, then I don't think I

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00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: need to be stressed out about the two.

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00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like I know, I.

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00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: Do a ton of stuff for my family, Like I

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00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 2: can see it on my time logs, and I could

888
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: see it just in the reality of life, like somebody

889
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: was wrapping the Christmas presents that we were airing. This

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00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: in early January, but we recorded in December. I spent

891
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 2: like three hours yesterday wrapping Christmas presents. Like somebody did that. Hmmm,

892
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: I wonder who. Anyway, So the kids have their activities

893
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 2: and I have Fine. That's pretty much how it goes.

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00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 4: I love it.

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00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 3: It's inspiring, let's.

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00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: Hope all right. Well, this has been best of both worlds.

897
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: I was interviewing Eve Rodsky, who's the author of the

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00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: brand new book Find Your Unicorn Space and also the

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00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 2: author of fair Play, which is about how to achieve

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00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: a fair split of the mental load that comes with

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00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: running a household.

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00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making

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00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: work and life fit together.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

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00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram.

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00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please

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00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: join us next time for more on making work and

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00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 2: life work together.