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Speaker 1: Childlike enthusiasm is the best way I can describe it.

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Speaker 1: There's in a constellation of encodings inside of it.

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Speaker 2: And then I opened my first business and I never

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Speaker 2: worked again.

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Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and this is Jim Collins.

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Speaker 2: Jim Gavin.

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm enormously curious about this whole conversation, and

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Speaker 1: I'm kiddie, I'm curious to know what you're curious about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm just I this is uh, You've You've had too

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Speaker 2: many touch points in my life where your damn work

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Speaker 2: has had outsized influence, like next level level five influence

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Speaker 2: in fact, in terms of just you know, breaking my

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Speaker 2: consciousness and all of my limiting beliefs. And so it's

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Speaker 2: a it's a hell of a gift for me to

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Speaker 2: be able to first thank you for your decades and

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Speaker 2: decades of extraordinary contribution to you know, so many of

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Speaker 2: us that you I can't even imagine, you know, not

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Speaker 2: just business leaders, but people that are just trying to

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Speaker 2: be better human beings, better, uh you know, better better citizens.

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Speaker 2: Dare I say so? It's it's a great, great gift

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Speaker 2: for me to have you.

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Speaker 1: On Yeah, no, I you know, and I I could

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Speaker 1: just tell that you're a very curious person, as am I,

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Speaker 1: and I would imagine that whatever you know, we would

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Speaker 1: just have a marvelous conversation. So I kind of view

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Speaker 1: this as a marvelous conversation. And and by the way,

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Speaker 1: congratulations on writing yourself. No, and uh and and as

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Speaker 1: you now know, it's an arduous, an arduous journey. And

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Speaker 1: I am curious what the process of writing was like

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Speaker 1: for you. You've always loved taking in from books, but

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what it was like for you to to

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Speaker 1: create one.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting, Joe, just you know, I thought

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Speaker 2: I was really touched. You know, you begin and end

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Speaker 2: your new book in the con it's not just similar

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Speaker 2: the way that I began my book, which is really

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Speaker 2: a journey of discovery. It was a memoir of discovery,

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Speaker 2: and it was really a love letter to my parents

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Speaker 2: and to my grandparents. And you dedicated your book not

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Speaker 2: only to your wife but to your grandma. But it

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Speaker 2: begins with just that powerful opening with your father and

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Speaker 2: trying to connect with your father and realizing that you

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Speaker 2: weren't going to be able to connect with your father.

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Speaker 2: And it would be great. I'd love to just kick

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Speaker 2: this off because you wrote a book called you Know,

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Speaker 2: What to Make of a Life? That's you know, to me,

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Speaker 2: it just it touches on so many themes that are

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Speaker 2: so resonant in terms of my time of life. But

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Speaker 2: it also, I think is resonant in the context of

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Speaker 2: the lives of those we've lost and loved as well,

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Speaker 2: and how they imprint on us and how we are

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Speaker 2: an extension of them. And so my own writing journey

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Speaker 2: you of course, extended to this new piece of work

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Speaker 2: that in contribution your relationship to your father in a

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Speaker 2: way you had in the past.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, I'm happy to pick up there.

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Speaker 3: And as you.

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Speaker 1: As you know, from the beginning of What To Make

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Speaker 1: of a Life, the seeds of this work really begin

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Speaker 1: with the recognition that my father could never really be

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Speaker 1: a father. And as you know, there's a California connection

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Speaker 1: to it, because when I was in about first grade,

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Speaker 1: he took me and my brother and my mom off

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Speaker 1: to San Francisco and we lived right kind of ground

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Speaker 1: zero of everything that was happening in the hate Ashbury.

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Speaker 1: We were a number of houses down from Hayte Street

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Speaker 1: on Ashbury and my father was sort of into the

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Speaker 1: whole beat scene, and I think he was really lost

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Speaker 1: in the fog of life. I didn't have words for

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Speaker 1: that at the time, but I think he was in

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Speaker 1: a fog for most of his life and never really emerged.

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Speaker 1: And finally, you know, when my mom sort of just

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Speaker 1: said that's it and they eventually separated. And worst I

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Speaker 1: always just and and maybe you can relate to this

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Speaker 1: as well with just you know, different people that you

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Speaker 1: hope for things from them in life. And what I

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Speaker 1: really hoped is that my father would somehow become a father, right.

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Speaker 1: I just kept hoping that he would step out of

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Speaker 1: the out of this fog and be a father and

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Speaker 1: provide guidance and and I had no clue how to

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Speaker 1: think about life. And then in early high school there

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Speaker 1: really was this moment that's really seared in my experience.

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Speaker 1: We were back in Colorado at the time, my mom

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Speaker 1: and my brother and myself and I got this idea

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Speaker 1: that I would take one of those prepackaged turkeys. And

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Speaker 1: my father was living in an adobe hut with a

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Speaker 1: dirt floor in north of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I

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Speaker 1: rode a greyhound bus down. I brought this turkey and

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Speaker 1: was gonna share it with him and had this image

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Speaker 1: he would emerge as a father. And what happened that

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Speaker 1: weekend was this shattering realization that he was mainly self

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Speaker 1: absorbed into the question of why his mother has had

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Speaker 1: made his life so difficult, and mainly tried to get

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Speaker 1: me to convince her to give him money. And when

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Speaker 1: I got back on the Greyhound bus heading north back

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Speaker 1: to Colorado, I just had this I mean it is

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can still visually picture I, you know,

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Speaker 1: looking at it was November. There were these kind of

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, Colorado swirling clouds that were sort of descending.

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Speaker 1: I had this whole sort of sense of darkness almost,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like I was just heading into the

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Speaker 1: fog of life with no idea how to do it

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Speaker 1: at all, and I certainly wasn't going to get it there.

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Speaker 1: And so I think the real seeds of wrestling with

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Speaker 1: these questions. Even though I went off and did all

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Speaker 1: this stuff on my great Companies work and all that,

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Speaker 1: that's where it really began. And then you know, by

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Speaker 1: the time you get to the end of the book,

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Speaker 1: as you know, though I've I ended up even though

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Speaker 1: my father died when I was only twenty three, ultimately

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Speaker 1: reconciling psychologically and emotionally with my father.

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Speaker 2: So you've, over the course of decades of work in

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Speaker 2: intense research, you spent I think, what is it, ten

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Speaker 2: years on this book, which is just extraordinary, And we'll

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Speaker 2: get to that in a moment. Two years writing it,

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Speaker 2: ten years research out you know, the books that you

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Speaker 2: know just just knocked me on the floor and just

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Speaker 2: knocked me in the core, talking about the core, core values,

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Speaker 2: core ideology. You know, as a young entrepreneur coming right

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Speaker 2: out of college, pen to paper and I was writing

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Speaker 2: business plans opening a little wine store in a restaurant,

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Speaker 2: and someone says, hey, you got to read this book

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Speaker 2: Built to Last, and I start you know this, this

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Speaker 2: language begins to shift because of your work and research.

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Speaker 2: And I think, what was that six years or five

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Speaker 2: or six?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a six year project.

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Speaker 2: So that was extraordinary in and of itself that you

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Speaker 2: would take that much time to research a subject matter.

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Speaker 2: And you're talking about this notion of being a clock

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Speaker 2: builder versus a time teller, and you're talking about the

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Speaker 2: genius of and versus the tyranny of ore. And boy

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Speaker 2: did that open up my mind in so many ways.

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Speaker 2: This notion of stimulating progress but maintaining the core core

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Speaker 2: values again, core ideology. I end up writing a core

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Speaker 2: ideology book from my business and I at a restaurant,

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Speaker 2: a few little hotels and a winery, and I became

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Speaker 2: my HR book Plumpjack Core Ideology and ram notes but

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Speaker 2: literally taken from you. And then Good to Great, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, come on, can't get better than Good to Great?

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Speaker 2: Meets built the last and learning about level five leadership

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Speaker 2: and these larger concepts that you don't have to be

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Speaker 2: a charismatic leader. It's about humility and you know, just

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Speaker 2: shifting all these these mindsets. And I read what was

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Speaker 2: another five years of research or something, and so here

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Speaker 2: this book comes along, and to me, it's even more extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: But it all connects. Forgive me, because you write about leadership, management,

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Speaker 2: visionary companies, what makes companies become good to great? And

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Speaker 2: you pair things up. And here you start to pair

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Speaker 2: up not just stories and storytelling. We're going to get

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Speaker 2: to dozens and dozens of those, but you know, I

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Speaker 2: think you pair up a larger meaning of life. It's

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Speaker 2: not you know, you say this it's not a self

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Speaker 2: help book, but it's about self knowledge, and it's it's

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Speaker 2: about these things that we all share in common, these

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Speaker 2: these sort of moments in life, these these you know,

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Speaker 2: as we navigate fog, and we'll get to that, as

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Speaker 2: we navigate cliffs in our lives. But it's also about

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Speaker 2: who we are and discovering this notion of you know,

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Speaker 2: you talk in terms of encoding and and so I

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Speaker 2: I just forgive. I just wanted to. There was a

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Speaker 2: long winded preamble just to explore my own bias towards you,

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Speaker 2: but bias towards this work in particular, and how to

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Speaker 2: hit me like a ton of breaks. Perhaps it's again

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Speaker 2: my time of life, stay in mind, my state you know,

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Speaker 2: of being, as it turned out, politician perhaps more specifically,

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Speaker 2: but also as a father, and the journey of discovery

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Speaker 2: that we're all on and figuring out who we are.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about this book, what to Make of Alive.

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Speaker 2: It's three and three fundamental books, isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 1: Go ahead, I just I just want to if it's

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Speaker 1: all right with you, and let's go right, we'll go

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Speaker 1: into what to make of a Life.

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Speaker 3: I want to.

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Speaker 1: I just want to put a little comm up from

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Speaker 1: what you said before and then let's go right into

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Speaker 1: the three parts of the new book. But first of all,

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Speaker 1: I'm so tickled that you found Built to Last when

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Speaker 1: you were starting as an entrepreneur. And the beauty of

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Speaker 1: writing is you never know where it's going to go,

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Speaker 1: and to know that it was affecting you and I

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Speaker 1: and I just I wanted to highlight one thing in

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Speaker 1: that which has a lot to do with my own journey,

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Speaker 1: which is the marvelous people along the way that have

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Speaker 1: had such an impact on me in such generous ways.

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Speaker 1: And uh and and with Built to Last, I have

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Speaker 1: one of these great strokes of wholuck in my life.

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Speaker 1: We read a lot about who luck in the new book,

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Speaker 1: but it was my co author on that book, Jerry Porus.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Jerry was the one who came up

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Speaker 1: with the I the idea of not just studying you know,

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Speaker 1: success cases, or just studying a set of companies, but

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Speaker 1: this pairing process, the match pair methodology, really came from Jerry.

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Speaker 1: He was my great research mentor and we first used

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Speaker 1: it and developed it in and Built to Last. And

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Speaker 1: and just one little thing about level five. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: this notion of people who lead with a great sense

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Speaker 1: of humility, and it doesn't need to all revolve around

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Speaker 1: them in some way. And and there's just one beautiful

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Speaker 1: data point. Jerry was a very senior professor.

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Speaker 3: He was a dean.

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Speaker 1: Uh, he was massively tenured. I was just I mean,

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Speaker 1: why he partnered with me is still just a marvel

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Speaker 1: to me. But then when it came time to publish

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Speaker 1: the book, he said, we should put our names on

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Speaker 1: it alphabetically, and so it's my name, you know, Jim

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Speaker 1: Collins and Jerry Porus. And he never was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm the senior person here.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you think about it.

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Speaker 2: How beautiful is that he's beautiful years older than you,

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Speaker 2: as you said, ye, beyond words, he's the he's.

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Speaker 3: The man, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And then and just the beauty and the generosity of that,

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Speaker 1: and how much he trusted that we could be great

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Speaker 1: partners when we were so separated by agent experience, and

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Speaker 1: and so I just wanted to share that with you

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Speaker 1: because I think it's it's a wonderful part of what

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Speaker 1: you experienced. If if it weren't for Jerry, you also

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have had built to last, And and it's impact

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Speaker 1: on you and all that it taught me to do

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Speaker 1: so we can go to the new book.

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Speaker 2: But you know, but Jerry wouldnt have been inspired had

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Speaker 2: you not been writing those little articles in the center.

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Speaker 3: That's true.

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Speaker 2: And he says, hey, this kid's not something.

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Speaker 3: Uh that's true. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So you you you so you've been on this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, getting back to I mean just you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of business. But what would be perceived as

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Speaker 2: business books. I think they're much more impactful from that.

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Speaker 2: I continue to remind all of my friends that I've

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Speaker 2: you know, they've bought dozens and you'll see good to

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Speaker 2: great all over my offices and built the last everywhere

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Speaker 2: and and uh, I make everyone in political context read them. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and notably, I think it's had a bigger impact in

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Speaker 2: me in terms of my political consciousness, and then it

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Speaker 2: has from a business perspective. But but but this notion

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Speaker 2: of you know, just this journey again, that this notion

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Speaker 2: of life, and you know, is it that is You've

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Speaker 2: got other mentors, not just Jerry. You talk about John Gardner,

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Speaker 2: who wrote right and it's inspired by this book. I

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Speaker 2: went back and read that self renewal speech. He wrote,

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Speaker 2: Oh my, oh yes, gosh, class, oh come on, how

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Speaker 2: good is that going to seed and all of that,

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Speaker 2: But what was you know, what was the inspiration for this?

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Speaker 2: Was what got you into this mindset and this ten

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Speaker 2: year journey on this book.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, So there's the early seeds from trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of figure out what to make of my own

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Speaker 1: life when I was a kid, and those were in there.

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Speaker 1: And I've always been interested in people, as you know,

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Speaker 1: from from all the prior work built a last and

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Speaker 1: good to great and so forth. There's so much in

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Speaker 1: there that, I mean, great companies don't build themselves. People

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Speaker 1: built great companies, and I was always interested in the

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Speaker 1: leaders and the people and their story and how what

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Speaker 1: they are as people ended up being reflected in the

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Speaker 1: kinds of companies and organizations and institutions.

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Speaker 3: That they built.

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Speaker 1: And so I always had this interest in just the

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Speaker 1: people side of things, really the center of things. And

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Speaker 1: then when I had done about oh gosh, over three

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Speaker 1: decades of work on my great Companies tick, I had

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Speaker 1: finished this two year appointment as the Class of nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty one. I was sponsored by the Class of nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty one Chair for the Study of Leadership at the

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Speaker 1: United States Military Academy at West Point and I sort

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Speaker 1: of felt like a whole bunch of things had kind

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Speaker 1: of kind of come to towards a conclusion, and I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to really work on next. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to just do another book on on matchpairs

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Speaker 1: of companies and so forth, after three decades of that,

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Speaker 1: and so I kept thinking, and I came back to

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Speaker 1: this question, and three seeds fused at once.

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Speaker 3: One was the.

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Speaker 1: Early journey, the Greyhound bus, the whole deal. A second

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Speaker 1: seed was John Gardner and his inspiration to me about

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Speaker 1: self renewal and that he felt that the question of

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Speaker 1: how we make the most of the later decades of

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Speaker 1: our life was really worth putting more research into. And

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Speaker 1: John had an impact on me with that. And the

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Speaker 1: third seed, which kind of came in the middle, was

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Speaker 1: my wife Joanne was a world champion triathlete when we

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Speaker 1: lived in Palo Alto in the nineteen eighties, and she

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Speaker 1: won the Hawaii Iron Man. But her athletic career, as

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Speaker 1: you know from the book, came to an end and

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Speaker 1: prematurely because of an injury. You had an injury as

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Speaker 1: an athlete, right, and there's very you know if you're

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Speaker 1: an athlete. And then it's taken away from you because

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Speaker 1: you get injured. That when and I remember we were

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Speaker 1: sitting at a little table in our little townhouse in

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Speaker 1: pal Alto and the late eighties when she realized it

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Speaker 1: was coming to an end and she would no longer

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Speaker 1: be able to hold that identity. And she just said

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Speaker 1: to me one day, you know, I feel like I'm dying.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't have an answer.

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Speaker 2: She's young, I mean she's yeah, she's.

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Speaker 1: Like in her late twenties at this point, mid to

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Speaker 1: late twenties. She won the Iron Man in nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: so she was twenty four and just to put in.

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Speaker 2: Her specific people know, not only won the Iron Man,

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Speaker 2: but she was I mean, Nike, you know, just do

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Speaker 2: it campaign. I mean, she was you. You were out

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Speaker 2: there hustling for her, right, I mean, she's right.

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Speaker 1: That's right exactly. In fact, I was very much joint

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Speaker 1: support team. And this is all before I got back

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Speaker 1: to teaching or got the opportunity to teach at Stanford,

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Speaker 1: connect with Jerry to built Plass. All that was in

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Speaker 1: the future and what uh I uh. I quit all

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Speaker 1: of my jobs and all of that and and focused

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Speaker 1: on just supporting Joanne's athletic career. She was the first

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Speaker 1: female athlete, and the famous just do it campaigns and

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Speaker 1: and uh so she really I mean yeah, she was

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Speaker 1: the world champion, IRONMN champion, with all of this stuff

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Speaker 1: that surrounded it, and then her injury was going to

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Speaker 1: take it away. And and I think that all those

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Speaker 1: seats came together because I realized I didn't have the

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Speaker 1: words for it at the time, but the question of

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Speaker 1: what to make of a life? Well, she had to

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Speaker 1: answer the question again. I mean, she she's what she's

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Speaker 1: making of a life. She's an athlete. Now that's being

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Speaker 1: taken away, and you have to ask the question again.

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Speaker 1: And I think what happened is all those seeds came

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Speaker 1: together in this idea of we all faced the question

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Speaker 1: at multiple times in our life. We don't just answer

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Speaker 1: the question of what to make of a life only once?

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Speaker 1: In all likelihood, we actually have to answer it and

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Speaker 1: then re answer it, and then maybe we get hit

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Speaker 1: with what you know, describe as a cliff event like Joanne's,

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Speaker 1: an event where it radically changes or alters your life

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Speaker 1: and you have to sort of figure refigure it all

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Speaker 1: out in some way. And there's all different kinds of cliffs,

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Speaker 1: disease cliffs, and career cliffs and personal cliffs and even

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Speaker 1: success cliffs. Right, what if you reach the very peak

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Speaker 1: of something and that's over. And I came up with

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Speaker 1: this idea of, well, you could really get an insight

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Speaker 1: if you could look at how people go through the

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Speaker 1: whole phase of life, but in particular how they reprocess

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Speaker 1: the question at multiple times when they're young, when they're

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Speaker 1: going through a cliff and have to come out the

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Speaker 1: other side, and when they're looking at the later decades

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Speaker 1: and years of their lives so that they don't squander

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Speaker 1: those years and leave them on the table. And that

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Speaker 1: ultimately led to I got to do this project in

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Speaker 1: some form and then twelve years later I emerged blinking

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Speaker 1: in the sunlight. So it was a heck of a journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but and when you start these journeys

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Speaker 2: five years, six years for Bill the less and Good

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Speaker 2: Grade and twelve years I mean ten plus two, is

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Speaker 2: that you don't really have an end in mind? Do

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Speaker 2: you just have you you're just committed to the journey.

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Speaker 2: You're working on a project and it runs its course, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there's kind of a fun story with this

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Speaker 1: one of how much I was just on the journey

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Speaker 1: of it. Had a number of years where I was

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to do it right. And

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Speaker 1: so often in the early stages of a research project,

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Speaker 1: there's well kind of getting the questions, but I really

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Speaker 1: need to develop the methods, and then you got to

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Speaker 1: find the study subjects, and that can take years, and

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Speaker 1: finding pairs of people matched at the same.

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Speaker 3: Clips, there's a whole lot.

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Speaker 1: So if you could even before you could even get

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Speaker 1: into studying individual lives, you had to find the pairs

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Speaker 1: you were going to look at. So is just this

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Speaker 1: and I'm oddly put together in such a way that

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Speaker 1: I can get lost in something like that. And I

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Speaker 1: don't need any external pressure of any kind. I just

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Speaker 1: love getting up in the morning and having a project

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Speaker 1: that's like a giant friend. I mean, it's just sort

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Speaker 1: of like you look across the room and there's this

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Speaker 1: giant friend and it says good morning, and you're on

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Speaker 1: your way. But my publisher, I was able to just

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Speaker 1: pursue this on my own path. My publisher didn't even

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Speaker 1: know it existed until it was done.

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Speaker 3: And uh and and so I'm they did that.

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Speaker 1: They didn't even have any idea I was working on

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Speaker 1: a book like this. They knew that I was probably

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Speaker 1: doing something because I'm always be advanced in advance.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's no there's no advance something like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just marching. And then my I have a wonderful

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Speaker 1: partner that have been my literary agent for years. Uh

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Speaker 1: and uh, Peter call I finished the book. We actually

385
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Speaker 1: it's actually written. It could maybe use a little polishing,

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Speaker 1: but it's basically done. And uh. Agent calls my publisher

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Speaker 1: in New York I've worked with for many years and

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Speaker 1: and said, on Monday morning you will receive a box.

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Speaker 1: In that box is Jim's new book. And my executive

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Speaker 1: editor by my publisher, she's like, book, what book?

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Speaker 3: What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: And what and so? And she had no idea even

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Speaker 1: you know what it would be about. And opened the

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Speaker 1: box and there's the title What to Make of a Life?

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Speaker 1: And she's like, oh boy, we're not in Kansas anymore,

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Speaker 1: and away we went. So I can't explain why I

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Speaker 1: can just if it takes ten years or six years

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Speaker 1: or whatever, I think the magnitude of it I find.

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Speaker 3: I just once I.

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Speaker 1: Start, I if it's a really good project, and it's

401
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Speaker 1: something I've got to get to the end of satisfying

402
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Speaker 1: my curiosity. I just can't stop. And I actually I

403
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Speaker 1: get to a certain point where when I start getting

404
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Speaker 1: really conservative in my choices so that I don't have

405
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Speaker 1: an unfortunate accident before it's done. Right, I so much

406
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Speaker 1: want it to get done, so I drive slower, you know,

407
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Speaker 1: I make sure that I look both ways, because there's

408
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Speaker 1: just this sense of momentum that comes from the magnitude

409
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Speaker 1: of the projects, like, oh no, I can't get eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of the way of this and then have an accident. Right,

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Speaker 1: I've got I've got to get it done well.

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Speaker 2: And that gets to fire and purpose, which will get

413
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 2: to in a moment. But you just just to underscore

414
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Speaker 2: so people have a better sense of who you are.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're a four am guy, right when you

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Speaker 2: that's my favor your morning's so people understand we're not

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Speaker 2: talking about seven thirty and you know you're looking out

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Speaker 2: the window of a cup of coffee. You're four am,

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Speaker 2: and you're sometimes up earlier wishing it was four so

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Speaker 2: you can get moving on the day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, especially when I'm in the middle of a project.

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Speaker 1: So when I when I had this giant friend in

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Speaker 1: the room that would greet me every morning. My favorite

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Speaker 1: time to get up is right around four and especially

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Speaker 1: when I'm in the big big project, in the big

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Speaker 1: writing mode and all that, and I'm at work by

427
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Speaker 1: I walked, you know, I stumble downstairs. I have one

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Speaker 1: really good cup of coffee during the day. I have it,

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Speaker 1: then wake up, bang, and I am at work by

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Speaker 1: like four eleven or four twelve or four third, very quickly.

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Speaker 1: And there's just something about and I really will I

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Speaker 1: I wrote this in the in the books, kind of

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Speaker 1: describing a little bit of the writing process.

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Speaker 3: It was really true.

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Speaker 1: I'd wake up sometimes you just think, oh, please, please

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Speaker 1: please let it be at least four am, so I

437
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: can get up and get going. And then you know,

438
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: and do it and just just sort of the day

439
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: after day after day aspect of it. And it's not

440
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: it's not a form of regimen.

441
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: It's not a.

442
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: Form of of like self imposed grinding discipline. It's not

443
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: like that at all.

444
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 3: It's this sense of.

445
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: Childlike enthusiasm is the best way I can describe it.

446
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: And it's just oh my goodness, you know. And and

447
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: there's tricks though like, if you're writing something end and

448
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: end during the day, end part way through a paragraph,

449
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: because then at when you get up at four am

450
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: in the morning, you're already have the momentum of being

451
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: part way through that paragraph. And so when you pick

452
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: up you can get this snack click when you hit

453
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: the pages.

454
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: Well, I like that. It's an interesting hack. So the

455
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: first look, the first and most difficult part of this,

456
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,239
Speaker 2: and it goes back to the work that Jerry and

457
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: you did, is the pairings and I mean, and therein

458
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: lies the decade. I mean, is how you explore the

459
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: lives and really uncover thousands of years of lives and

460
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: the aggregate and the lessons distilled sort of the essence

461
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 2: of the lessons. And so I imagine, or perhaps you

462
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: can illuminate, the process begins there or does the process

463
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: begin with the frame? And the question is it? I mean,

464
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 2: you really you talk about the power of questions, and

465
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: so how did what was the I mean give us away,

466
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: give me a sense of how you architected this process

467
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: in the beginning.

468
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I had these questions right that were that

469
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: were in my mind, and probably initially they were tilted

470
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: a little bit towards the seed from Joeanne and her

471
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: cliff and John Gardner's question of self renewal, and I'd

472
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: always been inspired by those and those two kind of

473
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: went together because you had John really I saw my

474
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: notes from him sitting down with me many many year

475
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: decades ago, and we talked through some possible ways that

476
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: you might actually look at the question of how people

477
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: remain renewed over the entire arc of life. But then

478
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, how on earth would you study that?

479
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: And then what became clear to me is Joanne's experience

480
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: came flooding back to me, and I realized that when

481
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: you have one of these cliff events, these times in life,

482
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: when life is you knew it before in some significant

483
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: way has ended and you have to it calls for

484
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: new questions. You have to answer the question again of

485
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: what to make of a life? And I enjoint the

486
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: cliff is very painful cliff I and that all of

487
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: a sudden gave me the ideas like, wow, I could

488
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: really learn a lot about how people renew them if

489
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: I could find people going through cliffs and having to

490
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 1: answer the question of how to renew themselves coming out

491
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: of a cliff, and then go through the rest of

492
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: their lives. And so then came Jerry's you know, think

493
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: about all we've learned from having if you can have

494
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: pairs that are facing similar circumstances and you can learn

495
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: from how different entities handle those different circumstances. So then

496
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: the idea became very simple. Well, what if I could

497
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: find pairs of people that are matched at a very

498
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: similar cliff, and I.

499
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 3: Could look at their lives up to the.

500
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: Cliff, into the cliff, coming out of the cliff, and

501
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: then over the rest of their lives. And then became

502
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 1: a really long journey if you had to find these

503
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: wonderful pairs, that became very hard. I had wonderful researchers,

504
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: and we searched and we searched and we searched, and

505
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: sometimes you'd have one side of the pair, but you'd

506
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: really have trouble finding the other side of the pair.

507
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: And sometimes were they were obvious once you found him.

508
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: So for example, I mean, you know some of the

509
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: pairs that are in there in the classic like Robert

510
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: Plant and Jimmy pay from led Zeppelin, and you know, really,

511
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: I mean they were so tightly together playing on stage,

512
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: lead guitars, lead singer and John Bonham the drummer dies,

513
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: and you have a cliff the end of led Zeppelin.

514
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: And now what there are two suffragists, Alice Paul and

515
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: Lucy Burns. Their cliff was I mean, they had dedicated

516
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: their lives for quite a number of years where they

517
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: were trying to get the ninth what became the Nineteenth Amendment.

518
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: They were trying to get women's suffrage, and then they

519
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: won right and Alice Paul probably had already written the

520
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: first word of her obituary in terms of what how

521
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: others would write her life architect of the Nineteenth Amendment.

522
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: And so you faced the question of how what we won?

523
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: And we have people who tragically lost, you know, their

524
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: their spouse and had to then were cast into roles

525
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: for which they had never prepared or envisioned.

526
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 3: Professional athletes.

527
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: Uh, we have two Olympic gold medal winners. What do

528
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: you do after you've won a gold medal and you

529
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: were the first and second women ever in the United

530
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: States from the United States to win gold and you

531
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: need to figure out the rest of your life or

532
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: or your NFL players like Alan Page and Carl Eller

533
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: from the Purple People, leaders of the nineteen seventies of

534
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: the Vikings' you know, that's like Joannes Cliff, end of

535
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: an athletic career, what comes next? And so there were

536
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: all these pairs and these different walks of life, and

537
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: it was years like we'd find one side of the

538
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: pair sometimes or I thought it'd be really interesting to

539
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: have Benjamin Franklin, a great example of renewal over the

540
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: over the.

541
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: Course of a life.

542
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: And I thought, what a cliff, the ultimate cliff, the

543
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: time of revolution and your entire world being ripped apart, right,

544
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: And I thought, but how can I find a match

545
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: to Benjamin Franklin. And we ended up doing this thing

546
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: where a researcher, a member of my research and I

547
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: came with his idea, which is, let's just take all

548
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: the members of the people who were at the Constitutional

549
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: Convention and who also and all of the people who

550
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: signed the Decoration of Independence, which Franklin had done, and

551
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: then work backthward exploring all those lives to see if

552
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: there was anyone whose life up to that point was

553
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: parallel enough to Franklin's that you could match him. And

554
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: you find Roger Sherman from Connecticut, and they are the

555
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: two oldest at the Constitutional Convention, and their lives were

556
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: defined by that time and what they dedicated themselves to

557
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: and so forth, and we had our match. But that

558
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: was probably just to find Roger Sherman was months amen.

559
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: It took me six decades to find him and foud

560
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: him in your book.

561
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about him.

562
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: Now I know a lot about him. And of course

563
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: the personality contrast between the two next level, and you

564
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: explore that in detail, much to unpack. I'm thinking about

565
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: a twenty year old skater and the rest of her life.

566
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: You mentioned obituary, and the fact it barely even is

567
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: registered in her obituary the most important, defining moment of

568
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: her life. Yet, she continued on, So let's unpack all that.

569
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: This notion so cliffs, you know, obviously, Joanne, this notion

570
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: of a cliff becomes sort of the central question. And

571
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: as you're mining that and you're figuring out these pairs,

572
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: then you start to explore the aspects of cliffs. You

573
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: get into these three frames or three words that I

574
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: wanted to deeper, This notion of endcoding, this notion of

575
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: fog that often follows the cliff, and then this notion

576
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: of fire. Maybe you can unpack some of those and

577
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: sort of orient them in the context of how you

578
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: and the journey of discovery, answering the simple question about

579
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 2: your wife's own journey, the cliffs of these matched pairs,

580
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: how encoding plays an outside role, what fog represents, and

581
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: then let's talk fire.

582
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, great.

583
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 3: So this so that the.

584
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: Book, as you know, breaks into three parts, right, and

585
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: the first part is called coming into frame, and the

586
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: second part is navigating cliffs and fog, and the third

587
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: is feeding the inner fire long and late. And there's

588
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: integration across all of them, simply because life isn't, you know, a.

589
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: Simple three stage process.

590
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: The thing that happened is I began to do the research,

591
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: is that I began to realize the book shed light

592
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: not just on the cliff and pass, but also just

593
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: even how they found their initial paths in life. I mean,

594
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: how did Robert Planned end up as a singer, or

595
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: how did Barbara McClintock end up as a geneticist, or

596
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: how did John Glenn end up as a fighter pilot

597
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: and an astronaut? Right, it's really interesting how do people

598
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: come out of the fog of youth and find their way.

599
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: And so this notion of the encodings is that what

600
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: we found is that you can kind of think of

601
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: times of life when they were let me just back

602
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: up from them notion of encoding. So let's just quickly

603
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: define encoding, so anybody listening knows what we're talking about.

604
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: Encodings as we came to understand them, are these durable

605
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: capacities of our intrinsic construction that lie within a waiting

606
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: discovery through the experiences of life.

607
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 3: And they're there.

608
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: But our life is like at any given time like

609
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: looking through a telescope or a window, and it's like

610
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: there's a constellation of encodings inside us. But at any

611
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: given time you can only see a portion of that

612
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: constellation based upon what you're doing. So if you're in business,

613
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: maybe a set of encodings are coming through the window

614
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: really well, that suit that really well, and you're in

615
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: frame as.

616
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 3: A business person.

617
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: But if you shift the world and the frame shifts

618
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: to a different walk of life, as for example you've done,

619
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: then it shifts and a different set of encodings are

620
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: coming through the window. And so the first is that

621
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: there isn't just kind of one thing that you're encoded for.

622
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: It's not that you could only be encoded to be

623
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: a singer, only encoded to be in leadership roles, or

624
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: only encoded to be a geneticist. Any person has a

625
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: constellation of encodings that's pretty vast and that you might

626
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: be able to go through. And this is what looking

627
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: through cliffs teaches us is you can go through times

628
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: in life where you might be in frame over here

629
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: with a set of encodings for say, being a defensive

630
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: lineman like Alan Page, and that comes to an end,

631
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: and then the frame shifts again. It captures a different

632
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: set of encodings that he has inside as a Supreme

633
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: Court justice in the state of Minnesota.

634
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 3: He's the same.

635
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: Person, but the frame has changed and it's activating different encodings,

636
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: and it might activate some overlapping encodings, or they might

637
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: be just radically different parts of the constellation. Writing Supreme

638
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: Court briefs and terrifying uarterbacks are really different different parts

639
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: of the constellation. And what we what really became clear

640
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: to me is that these these encodings, there are things

641
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: we could all potentially relate to because there it could

642
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: be like the encoding to I'm just encoded to solve

643
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: puzzles like the Barbara and Clintock the Geneticist Store. I'm

644
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: just encoded to want to figure out how gadgets work.

645
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: Like Grace Hopper when she was a little girl, couldn't

646
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: stop herself from taking apart all the clocks in her house.

647
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: She's about this tall and running around taking apart all

648
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: the clocks. Why because she just has this encoding for

649
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: I gotta figure out how gadgets work and make them

650
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: work better. And that eventually came fully in frame when

651
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: she worked on the first computers right and brought software

652
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: to us and all of that. So the essential idea

653
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: is that our lives move right through different frames, and

654
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: there are times when we're in frame, which is a

655
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: big bright set of of those encodings are coming through

656
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: the window, and then there might be a time when

657
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: we're out of frame, meaning what we're doing doesn't capture

658
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: a lot of those encodings, and we're the same person,

659
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: but somehow we're just kind of over here we're a

660
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: lightning bolt, and over here we're a lightning bug. And

661
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: then the lens shifts again and a big bright set

662
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: of encodings comes through the window. And I'm back to

663
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: being a lightning bolt, and it's a maybe a different frame.

664
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: One of my favorite little details on the whole book, Gavin,

665
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: is this little one about John Glenn in frame is

666
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: a test pilot, fighter pilot, astronaut. Later in life in

667
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: frame as a senator. But he spends about ten percent

668
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 1: of his life as an executive at Royal Crown Colon.

669
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: And even though it's about ten percent of his life,

670
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: he only puts about zero point two percent of his

671
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: memoir about it. And what that tells me is that

672
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: in that time of his life, it's not that he

673
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: was failing. Is that that was lightning bug, astronaut, test pilot,

674
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: fighter pilot, lightning bolt, executive lightning bug, senator lightning bolt.

675
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: And and much of the task of life is we're

676
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: actually gonna ebb and flow. We're gonna have times when

677
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 1: I sort of feel like I'm a lightning bug right now,

678
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have times when it's like, Wow, I'm

679
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: in frame. It's a lightning bolt. And that's when your

680
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: encodings are in frame.

681
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: And Jim, when you think of encodings, is it is it?

682
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily just what you're good at it's it's

683
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: not it's strengths, sure, but it's not necessarily just what

684
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: your strengths are. Is it bliss?

685
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: Is it just?

686
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: Is it? Is it just an instinctal? Is it?

687
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: Is it?

688
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: Flow? Is a joy? How would you best describe when

689
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: you're in that state that bolts that lightning bolt versus bug?

690
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

691
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 3: So it's.

692
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,479
Speaker 1: Capturing a capacity that is very natural that when when

693
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: you do it, it's and if other people look at it,

694
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: they might say, how do you do that? How do

695
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: you have the instinct to do that? And and you go, well,

696
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: I don't really think that much about it. It's it's

697
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: instinctive for me. And and that's an encoding. And let

698
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: me just maybe the encodings again, don't don't They don't

699
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: have to be grandiose encodings like I'm encoded to win

700
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: a Nobel prize or something. It's not anything like that. Yeah,

701
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: it's uh, go back to our friend John Glenn and

702
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: and Glenn one of his encodings was checklists. I mean,

703
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: he would just he was just intrinsically drawn to operating

704
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: off with checklists. They were natural for him. He would

705
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: go about life with checklists. He's packing his car for

706
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: a trip across the country. They're going to be checkliss, Right.

707
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 3: He just loves checklists. He's working by checklist.

708
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: It turns out that when he becomes a pilot, fighter

709
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: pilot and all of that, an astronaut, I mean, think

710
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: about the countdown sequence and it's the ultimate checklist. So

711
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: there's this marvelous match between being check happy and you

712
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: know you don't want to miss a check on your

713
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: checklist when you're about to take off in a fighter

714
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: jet into combat over Korea. Right, those go to well together.

715
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: But let's think about this for a moment. If you

716
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: think about that was an encoding that he then harnessed

717
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: to being in his role as a test pilot and astronaut.

718
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: But what if I'm not encoded for checklists? Well, I

719
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: could learn the skill of checklists, and I could probably

720
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 1: even make checklisting a strength by just practice and discipline.

721
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: So here's the wys I've come to understand the basic difference.

722
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: If you have the encoding and then you multiply that

723
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: time training and discipline and focus it go. It becomes

724
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: kind of a super strength. And if you're not encoded

725
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: for it, through training and discipline, and learning, you can

726
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: turn it into a strength and and so it doesn't

727
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: mean that it might not become a strength or a skill,

728
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: but it's when it's layered, when it when it stems

729
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: from the encoding, this therapy, the encoding to solve a puzzle.

730
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: I just can't not solve puzzles. And when the when

731
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 1: the lightning goes off, I think what happens is very

732
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: natural for people. But there's also a sense of just

733
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: when you do something that feels that natural, it's intrinsically compelling,

734
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: it's not the adulation that would come from it. Or

735
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: like our geneticist Barbara McClintock, one of my favorite things about.

736
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: Her, she was just she really was. She had to

737
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 3: solve puzzles.

738
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: It's just she was just just a puzzle solver. And

739
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: when she when she was at the University of Missouri,

740
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: she's trying to she gets locked out of the lab

741
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: on a Sunday, and she's so intrinsically compelled to solve

742
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: puzzles that she can't waste the time to go back

743
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: and get her key, So she climbs up the outside

744
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: of the building and in through a window so she

745
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: can work on the on the puzzles. Okay, so I

746
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: think when when the lightning goes off, it's it's like that.

747
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: And then later in life, when she wins the Nobel Prize,

748
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: she says, it's kind of unfair in a way. It's

749
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: a great honor, but it's unfair to reward someone for

750
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: simply having had so much pleasure over the years. And

751
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: so when when sort of when it's a combination of

752
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: like the fire and the real fire for doing it

753
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: just it intrinsically feeds my fire, but also it's resting

754
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: on this encoding that you turn into a super strength.

755
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: That's when it's like, wow, no, this isn't that hard

756
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: for me.

757
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so resonant with me. I remember I was

758
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: working for Walter Shorenstein downtown San Francisco and doing property

759
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: management right out of college. It lasted about nine months,

760
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: and I went to work every day, and I remember

761
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 2: going to work every day, and then I opened my

762
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: first business and I never worked again. I don't remember

763
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 2: a day of work. I don't remember seven days a week.

764
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: So it didn't matter. And in this notion of just

765
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: being it, it was back to just sort of finding

766
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: that space, that pleasure where it just it's it becomes

767
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: almost transcendent, and so I it deeply resonates with me,

768
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: this notion you're being recognized for something that you would

769
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 2: you would you would do in your sleep, and and

770
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: and so this notion of uncoding, though, is hard for

771
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: a lot of us because a lot of us have

772
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: a mythology that it's the one thing that you have

773
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: to find, the one thing. Yeah, we would, haven't. We

774
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: been nurtured to believe that, and that's our real to

775
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: find our purpose and our bliss and then passion, and

776
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: then we pursue that passion, sort of the masthlov version

777
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: of life.

778
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so you made Maslow and I have, of course,

779
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: I've always loved Maslow's basic definition of self actualization, the

780
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: discovering what you're made to do and committing to pursue

781
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: it with excellence. Okay, but and I still believe that,

782
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: but with a giant asterisk, which is you can't take

783
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: that sentence says there's this one thing you're made to do,

784
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: because first of all, imagine how dispiriting it would be

785
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: to believe there's only one and you never found it,

786
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: I mean you, and then you can feel like you're

787
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: on this unicorn quest to find it, and and and

788
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: then maybe you're a young person and something doesn't feel

789
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: quite like it, and so then you think I haven't

790
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: yet found it, and there's it's almost like an existential

791
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: doom moop right the search for it. And so what

792
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: this study showed because people had to often change the

793
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: frame right a different fighter pilot to senator football player

794
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: to Supreme Court justice. Sometimes it's it's one walk of life.

795
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: Like Catherine Graham, who never envisioned herself as a as

796
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: a business leader, went through a terrible cliff, lost her husband,

797
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: ended up the CEO of the Washington Post, and then

798
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: all of a sudden discovers that she has these encoding

799
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: she never knew she had for leadership, and then encoding

800
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: for writing that she didn't know she had.

801
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 3: And so what.

802
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: Really changed for me is that within any one of us,

803
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: over the course of a life, and some of our

804
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: people did two or three or even four things in

805
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: a life that were really big, that the constellation is vast,

806
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: and if you don't find this one, well you might

807
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: find that one or this one here or that one

808
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: over there, and it's not the thing. It's just you

809
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: just need to find a fat thing that fits your encodings,

810
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: that feed your inner fire, where you can make the

811
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: economics work to pursue it.

812
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: And you went through your own process. You talk about

813
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: Jim's bugs, where you yes, yeah, so tell us about that.

814
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: I mean, so, if someone's listening to this, what's the

815
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 2: pragmatic advice, because it we'll get to fog, because a

816
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 2: lot of us are in that fog after a cliff,

817
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 2: something wonderful, having something bad happen. You get what you

818
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: want and you don't feel like it matters. You know,

819
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: I finally made a million dollars, and you know my

820
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: life's the same, and so we have these cliffs. Then

821
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 2: we get in these fogs of sort of despair and discomfort,

822
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: disappointment and start questioning our lives. But you went through

823
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: similar process. You talk about fog in your early days,

824
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: you talk about the fog of youth. You reference that

825
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: a few times already, talk to us about your own

826
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: journey on the endcoding side, and maybe, yeah, introduce this

827
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 2: notion of fog. Fog.

828
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 1: So let's first define fog a little bit upfront, because

829
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: I knew cliffs would be important in the study, because

830
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: it was the study construct, and then of course we

831
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: got into it. It discovered when we tried to find lives

832
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: to study that didn't have cliffs to see if the

833
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: patterns were different, we didn't find any.

834
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: Lives without cliffs. So I concluded, kind of cliffs are

835
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: us We'll all have cliffs, by the way.

836
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: That's important point because a lot of people don't think that.

837
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: It's just that's all my life in life. I'm not

838
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: as lucky as those folks that they never had those cliffs.

839
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: And you just called bs on that that everybody was

840
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 2: universal human it.

841
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 1: Was certainly, I'll just put I can't say for certain

842
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: it's one hundred percent universal. All I know is this,

843
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: we spent two years of our research team trying to

844
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: find really interesting lives that didn't have cliffs along the

845
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: way to study. We were unable to So maybe.

846
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 3: We just missed them. But I don't think they're out there.

847
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: That's that's my conclusion. But what surprised me is some

848
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: of these are, you know, they're really remarkable lives. And

849
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: we had remarkable lives because we needed lives well covered

850
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: so I could still eat them, quite visible lives.

851
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 3: That's where the data is.

852
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: These lives in net in total, when you co across

853
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: all the decades are very impressive lives, and yet all

854
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: of them had episodes of what we call fog, a

855
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: time in life when you are lost, confused, disoriented, reeling, uncertain, unclear.

856
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: And there was this huge sense of exhale I got

857
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: from that because I all of a sudden realized fog

858
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: is is not a defect. There's nothing wrong with you

859
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: when you're in the fog. All there's fog throughout this study.

860
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: There's fog in the wake of cliffs. There can be

861
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: the fog of youth, but fog, especially in the wake

862
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: of cliffs. There can be the fog of retirement, and

863
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: the fog of success, and the fog of disappointment, and

864
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: the fog of right and and so I just take

865
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: this this uh exhale of Okay, we're all going to

866
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: have fog.

867
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: I've had fog.

868
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: I'm going to have fog, and it's part of the

869
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: human condition. And I'm actually curious, if you don't mind

870
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: me asking, have you ever had a time did the

871
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: fog chapter resonate with you of like there was a

872
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: time when you were like, I'm in the fog. Now

873
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: I have a word for it. But that's where I was.

874
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: How many times? Yeah, I might be living through it,

875
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: Jim full disclosure, you know. I mean, you know, you

876
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 2: come to an end of you know, a long career

877
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: in politics and long you know, but defined not just

878
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: by politics but by being an entrepreneur, but in a

879
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: business that I started that you know will be difficult

880
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 2: to go back to. So you know, those are two

881
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: identities that don't necessarily go with me. And then we

882
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: get into larger and longer conversation. That's why the Gardener

883
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 2: piece really resonated with me on self, renewal, time of life,

884
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: the anxiety around time of life. And and boy was

885
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: it coming reading your book about some of the Just

886
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: and we'll get to Tony Morrison and go back to

887
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 2: Franklin a moment and their lives and how they lived

888
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: them out loud beyond their sixties. So no, it was

889
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 2: deeply resonant. And and and there's grace in that. I

890
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: mean it was it was nice to see that shared

891
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 2: so universally.

892
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: Yes, yes and so, and and I I am you know,

893
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: I was reflecting back on my own life and I

894
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: have had episodes of fog and in my twenties were

895
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: very much an episode of fog. I had a lot

896
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: of energy. I've always had a lot of energy, but

897
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 1: it was energy in the fog. And and but part

898
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: of how I got out of the fog was a

899
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: wonderful teacher named Rochelle Myers suggested to me. She co

900
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: taught the creativity course at Stanford Business School when I

901
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: was there, and she suggested to me that that I

902
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: get a start what I ended up calling the Bug Book.

903
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: And the idea behind the Bug Book was to take

904
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: one of those lab notebooks right that we used to

905
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: have in lab class, and right on the front of

906
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: it the name Jim. The idea being that it's not

907
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: that the book is owned by Jim, is that the

908
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: subject understudy is Jim. I love it, and so and

909
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: then you. And then take this lab notebook and carry

910
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: it with me wherever I would go and study myself

911
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: like a bug, and I'm the bug named Jim, and

912
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: and I would be I would just make notes all

913
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: the time that were simple observations without judgment. You don't say, gosh,

914
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'd be a better bug if

915
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: I had eight legs rather than six. Well, you just

916
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: make observe the bug has six legs, and so I

917
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: would begin to make observations about, for example, being in

918
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: meetings in a large court opiration that I was working

919
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: at in the eighties. I had made the mistake of

920
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: following the advice of my professors and who thought I

921
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: should get experience at a big, well run company. It

922
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: was a wonderful, big well run company. But I was

923
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: really at a frame there, and there are a lot

924
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: of notes in my bug book about sitting there in meetings,

925
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: and the meetings could have been much more productive. I

926
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: didn't really see the point of them. And then I

927
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: would say I would say something that would not be

928
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: helpful to the meeting because I would be critical of

929
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 1: our particular perspective or whatever. But I would be making

930
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: notes the entire time the bug Jim is really doesn't

931
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: fit and these kinds of meetings and conversations. But I

932
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: would also make notes about when things would click. And

933
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: so there a bet if I went back and looked

934
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: that there are bug book entries about when I wrote

935
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: those early articles before I ever met up with Jerry

936
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: to do the research about the bug. Jim enjoyed trying

937
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 1: to make sense of something and share it in words,

938
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: So and then I got input as well from other people.

939
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: I had mentors who made observations about me, and putting

940
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: those things together, eventually I was able to see for myself.

941
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: I didn't have the words for it. I didn't have

942
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 1: the word fog. I didn't have the word that I

943
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: was taking small, simplex steps to get through the fog.

944
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't know that I was essentially searching

945
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: to put my finger on my encodings. But that is

946
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: what I was doing, and through that process, eventually that led,

947
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: through a series of steps to stumbling upon what I

948
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: ended up spending so far the rest of my life

949
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: on research and writing and teaching.

950
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: And you brought up Catherine Graham, and it's such a

951
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 2: powerful story. I didn't fully appreciate. And I've gotten to

952
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: know Catherine and her son, and but I never really

953
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: appreciated that. I mean, what happened with her husband. I

954
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 2: mean it was that was that was powerful, in this

955
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: notion of simplex steps and her sort of reconciling. It's

956
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: not a great leap that you necessarily have to take.

957
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: It's this notion of sort, as you suggest, stepping off

958
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: a curb and realizing you're still standing up and eventually,

959
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 2: over time and through iteration, you ultimately start to come

960
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: out of that and you start to discover those encodings.

961
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly.

962
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: And that's it's very interesting and isn't isn't the story

963
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: Katherine Graham just marvelous?

964
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 2: Oh cool? I mean you start to realize she's still

965
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: with us, and what a blessing, right, I mean, what

966
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,479
Speaker 2: an extraordinary life and an.

967
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: Extraordinary life and an extraordinary leader. And I think what

968
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: well for me is so very powerful about Katherin Graham.

969
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: She comes in the.

970
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 3: Chapter that's after the fog chapter, which is.

971
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: About these small steps as you're moving through the fog

972
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: where you can't see clearly, so you just take a

973
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: step off the curb. You just take a step forward,

974
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: the best one you can. And if you keep taking

975
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: these steps, step by step by step, eventually.

976
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 3: The fox ares to clear. But also what's.

977
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: Happening at the same time is that what's happening is

978
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: you're starting to move the frame, that frame capturing encodings,

979
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: and through that stepping process you begin to see encodings

980
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: that start to light up. And in the case of

981
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: Katherine Graham, is she didn't just step off the curb

982
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I'm a great CEO.

983
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 3: She's one of the.

984
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 1: Greatest CEOs of all time, just period, full stop.

985
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: And for you to say that I hope people are

986
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: paying attention, that's a hell of a statement from of

987
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: all human beings.

988
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: You yeah, and I really it's what you do, yes, exactly,

989
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: and I it's it is on so many dimensions. And

990
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: but it took her years of stepping, and part of

991
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: that stepping was learning things right. She was always first, learned,

992
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: then lead. That was very much her approach. She learned

993
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: from Warren Buffett and others in her circle that as

994
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: he had invested in the company, but a lot of

995
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: else what was happening is as she was taking those steps,

996
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: it's like that frame was opening, and all of a sudden,

997
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: those encodings for leadership that she had kind of came

998
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: through the frame. There's this one wonderful moment I related

999
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: in the book, but it really sticks with me when

1000
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: in the middle of the Watergate story, she meets with

1001
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: one of her reporters, Bob Woodward, and says, do you

1002
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: think we'll ever get to the full publishable truth? And

1003
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: he's so, I'm not so sure, and she goes, don't

1004
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: ever tell me never. And his response to it was,

1005
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: she had this perfect managerial pitch do better. She wasn't

1006
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: going to meddle, she wasn't going to overdirect, she wasn't

1007
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: going to micromanag. She was just going to be we

1008
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: can do better. And he put this term on it

1009
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: of she was able to raise the bar gently but relentlessly,

1010
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: And isn't that just wonderful? But see what's interesting about

1011
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: that is I think that was it in her all

1012
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 1: the way along, and the process of kind of coming

1013
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: into frame brought it to the foe and then became

1014
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: part of her being such an exceptional UH leader. And

1015
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: that's why I think this idea. I mean, her story

1016
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: is such a marvelous journey of discovery every step along

1017
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 1: the way.

1018
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: I love it. And so then we get to this notion.

1019
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 2: Once we've you know, these frames encoding, we sort of

1020
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 2: work our way out of the fog after this sort

1021
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: of life event that alters things and cliffs defining this

1022
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: fire and fire you know, purpose, passion, What how do

1023
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: you define fire? And what is it? What is it

1024
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: that you know in your process of discovery coming out?

1025
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: Is was when did this start to appear and merge

1026
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 2: into your your research, and you start to realize the

1027
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: connective tissue here.

1028
00:55:54,520 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: So so I, okay, there's a couple as we could

1029
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 1: come at this, And let's come at it from from

1030
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: the perspective of keeping the fire burning really bright over

1031
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: the entire long arc. And let's talk about that there,

1032
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: because I think that you and I were separated by

1033
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: about it roughly a decade in age. I think your

1034
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: late fifties, is that.

1035
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 3: Right, yep?

1036
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: And and so you're two years away from having finished

1037
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 1: your warm up.

1038
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 3: That's kind of how I look at this.

1039
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: And I mean, but also I you know, that's that's

1040
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: not particular to you. I think of that as you know,

1041
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: that thing with Benjamin Franklin when he hit age sixty,

1042
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,760
Speaker 1: and you look at the biographies of Franklin, on average,

1043
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: fifty three percent of the pages were yet to be

1044
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: written in the books. So if you think of it

1045
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: as that, when you hit sixty, more than half of

1046
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: what a life might add.

1047
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: Up to has yet to be written.

1048
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: And it's just a it's a reframes what these these

1049
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: years are. And so I'm sixty eight and I think

1050
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: about this.

1051
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 3: Too, right, It's.

1052
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: How do you keep the fire really bright and burning

1053
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: all the way along? Now, one of the things I'm

1054
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: very clear on is this notion of when you're in frame,

1055
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: it's not just that you're encoded for it, it's also

1056
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: something that really also ignites and feeds your fire. You

1057
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: don't have to justify it, you don't logically prove it,

1058
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: you just feel it, right.

1059
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 3: I can't.

1060
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: It's almost like I can't help myself from doing this.

1061
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: Now what really became interesting to me? And I would

1062
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: love to just kind of bat back and forth with

1063
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: you on this because I find that we live often

1064
00:57:49,120 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: with an assumption that energy, creativity, entrepreneurship, creative breakthrough, uh

1065
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: is the province of the young. Yeah, and that are

1066
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: and and that and that somehow it has to be

1067
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: something else, the province of the oldest something else.

1068
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 3: And what I came away.

1069
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: From this study really seeing in their lives is that

1070
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: your younger self doesn't have to tower over your older self.

1071
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: In fact, your older self can be sometimes the most

1072
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: fire filled part of life, where you are full of

1073
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: ageless zeal, You are meaningfully engaged, You are growing and

1074
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: adding new discovering new capabilities all the way along.

1075
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 3: And if we sort of reframe.

1076
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: Things, just all the details that are in the book,

1077
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 1: I am pay right giving us the Louver pyramid in

1078
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: his seventies. Tony Morrison, the great novelist who didn't She

1079
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: didn't even come fully into frame with all the pieces

1080
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: in place until her forties.

1081
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 3: We Loved published.

1082
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: At fifty six jazz stunning. They published at age sixty one,

1083
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: and a huge portion of her work comes in the

1084
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: later phase of her life. You look at Robert Plant

1085
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: continuing to be creative in his music many decades after

1086
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: led Zeppelin, and it just kind of basically says, well,

1087
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: wait a minute, if you're sitting here looking at years

1088
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: out there, we had to think about it the way

1089
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: Franklin's life folded, or these other people I studied lives unfolded.

1090
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: So maybe you and I could kind of talk a

1091
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: little bit about because you're going to face this question

1092
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: two one time or another. Right, Yeah, what would you

1093
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 1: like to know about this? And you read the book,

1094
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: but what would you be really curious to know about this?

1095
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, did you come? I mean, and I

1096
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 2: appreciate the frame you open up. The question is sort

1097
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 2: of this notion of back to time of life from

1098
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: an entrepreneurial, creative mindset, and you know, I mean, we

1099
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 2: can get to you know, a number of you know,

1100
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 2: the great breakthroughs of discovery and physics or something, and

1101
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: you feel like Jesus, I'm washed up. Or the fact

1102
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,880
Speaker 2: that even some of as we're celebrating the best of

1103
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: Roman Republic and Greek democracy declarations drafted by a thirty

1104
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 2: three year old and you think, boy, you know, what

1105
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: the hell have I done in my life? But did

1106
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: it come to you? And it's more of a socratic

1107
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,919
Speaker 2: frame here. I'm curious when you were doing when you

1108
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: when was this in the process of doing this, you

1109
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 2: started to discover this or did you intuitively understand it

1110
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 2: or were you even more self till selective in terms

1111
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 2: of your pairing that there was some intentionality around including

1112
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 2: or incorporating people that you knew sort of had an

1113
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 2: extended narrative that they had more chapters in their life

1114
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: than some of these others, or just where the research

1115
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: presented it.

1116
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's a great question because because of

1117
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: John Gardner's influence on me, I think I always had

1118
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: in the back of my mind that I was I

1119
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: was just intrinsically curious about why some people are able

1120
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: to keep themselves so renewed and so full of fire,

1121
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 1: and so creative and so potentially impactful, whether it's on

1122
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: a private basis or on a more public basis, for

1123
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: year after year, decade after decade, And and I just

1124
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to understand that and when I and I

1125
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: don't know why that was so intrinsically interesting to me

1126
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: when I was young, because I saw John Gardner out

1127
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: when I was in my thirties, I was many decades

1128
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: away from where I am now. But it just struck

1129
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 1: me as an interesting question. And I think the part

1130
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: of the reason it struck me as an interesting question

1131
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: is if you think about you, if you take the

1132
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: assumption that health permitting, right, that's the great wildcard of life,

1133
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 1: that we don't know what happens with health. We might

1134
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,479
Speaker 1: hopefully you get a good card. But if you take

1135
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 1: health permitting, the idea that sixty to eighty five, ninety

1136
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: whatever can be just as creative and impactful and energetic

1137
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: and as thirty to sixty. And if you take that idea,

1138
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: and then you take and you ask yourself a simple question,

1139
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: what would happen if all the people who sort of

1140
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 1: thought of it as that they were sort of done

1141
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: at sixty. Yeah, changed it to no, I'm beginning, and

1142
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: then they made the most of those coming decades. And

1143
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: if instead of those decades being sort of lost, they

1144
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: were captured as inflections, and do multiply that across thousands

1145
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: or millions of people who did that, the unleashing of

1146
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: human capacity would be immense. So I think that's why

1147
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: it appealed to me, Right, I just just picturing all

1148
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: these late inflection points and lightning bolts going off, and

1149
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: what would happen if there were millions of them. I

1150
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: think that's why I was interested in the question. I

1151
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: don't think at thirty I was worried I was going

1152
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: to run out of steam.

1153
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 3: Maybe as I got up further along I would question that.

1154
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: But then I wanted to understand, but for those who

1155
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: do that, how's it happen? And so I think my

1156
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: first side of the pairings, and my first thought in

1157
01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: all of this was I want to find people that

1158
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: after a cliff, after part way through their life, even

1159
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 1: if they stayed in one field, they were able to

1160
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: really have these accelerating decades. And so the study is

1161
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 1: tilted towards those that do that right, and then trying

1162
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: to understand why they were able to do that beyond

1163
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: just their energetic people.

1164
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: So why why, Jim? I mean, we're you know, it's

1165
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 2: sixty five, you're quote unquote retired. You're supposed to enjoy

1166
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 2: your retirement. You're getting social Security checks. You know, you're

1167
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 2: you're member of AARP held out. I think I wasn't

1168
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 2: fifty or something. They start sending you stuff and it

1169
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 2: feels like you're already checking out. Your kids are saying, oh,

1170
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 2: it's okay, dad. You know, they're patting you on the head,

1171
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 2: and you become I mean so, so it's so, you know,

1172
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 2: so it's we're habitualized right that that this is you know,

1173
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 2: sort of the you know, youth in your middle age

1174
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 2: and then you know senior status and it's wisdom. You know,

1175
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 2: we're supposed to impart our wisdom but not necessarily our energy.

1176
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: But you you discovered something different. What was What is

1177
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 2: the secret?

1178
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 3: Sauce?

1179
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 2: Obviously it's mindset, right, besides the physical system.

1180
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: I'll point to three things, one of which we've already covered,

1181
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: which is that you can still be in frame in

1182
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 1: your later decades, right, and so we don't have to.

1183
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: I mean think about we're talking about John Glenn earlier.

1184
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: He went back to space at seventy seven, and he

1185
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 1: served in the Senate for twenty five years, starting at

1186
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: about midlife, and they were fire filled years for him.

1187
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: And so but you know, there's this incredible sense of interview.

1188
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: Sure he's got many more decades, but is like double

1189
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 1: in frame. And so part of it is you can

1190
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: be in frame, young, in midstream and late. Being in

1191
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: frame is a big part of it, right, and then

1192
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: it becomes compelling. Will you keep writing? Tony Morrison? Oh yeah, right,

1193
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: I mean why would I stop? She had this wonderful

1194
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: line on one of the people that I really enjoyed

1195
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: learning about because as a writer, I was fascinated in

1196
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: my pair of writers, her and Barbara Talkman.

1197
01:05:58,360 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 3: She said, at one point.

1198
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: Of all the publicus disappeared, I would still keep writing,

1199
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: and and and so what no want of where you

1200
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 1: are in this sort of chronology of life. If you're

1201
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 1: in frame like that, you kind of are gonna almost

1202
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: not be able to stop yourself.

1203
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 2: But then there's a thing applause you don't need the paycheck,

1204
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 2: just you don't need the external validation right exactly.

1205
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: The The two things though that I would point to

1206
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: that were for me the uncoverings of how they did it,

1207
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,959
Speaker 1: what what I learned from how they did it. One

1208
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: is this thing called extend out, circle back, and and

1209
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: the idea being that you sort of would tend to

1210
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: think that the way they would keep themselves renewed is

1211
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: always some sort of radical self reinvention. They would sort

1212
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: of break with their past and like shatter themselves and

1213
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: create something entirely new. But but that but actually it

1214
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: was this very organic process of they were always doing

1215
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: two things right. One is kind of extending out to

1216
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: push the edges, to sort of find new things to

1217
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: discover and to learn and all of that, and of

1218
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: course that makes sense for keeping the fire alive. But

1219
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:18,920
Speaker 1: what I also found interesting was they also circled back

1220
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: to things that encodings they discovered earlier, strengths that they built,

1221
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: earlier experiences, they'd had earlier, things they loved to doing earlier,

1222
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: as kind of like like a rocket ship going out

1223
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: in ellipses, where extending out takes you out further, but

1224
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: then you kind of come back, not as deceleration, but

1225
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: to use those earlier things as like a planet accelerating

1226
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: the rocket ship out further, so you're like circling back,

1227
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: extending out, circling back, extending out. One of my one

1228
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 1: of the favor my favorite ways to illustrate this is

1229
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: with Robert Plant. And he stays a singer, of course,

1230
01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: but throughout this entire musical adventure, and it isn't venture

1231
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: after adventure for Robert Plant. He's always extending out. He's

1232
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: going off to the festival in the desert and wandering.

1233
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: You know, I'm out with all these camels to go

1234
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: to play music out there at this festival in the

1235
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,839
Speaker 1: middle of the desert, way off in Africa, with nothing

1236
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: around for miles. And he goes and explores new genres

1237
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: of music like bluegrass, and he's pushing things, always, always

1238
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 1: stretching himself out there. It's always an adventure. But along

1239
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 1: the way, if you notice, he'll come back and he'll

1240
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: weave in led Zeppelin songs. And one of my favorite

1241
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 1: little images in the whole study is he does this

1242
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,639
Speaker 1: marvelous extend out where he'd always been the front singer. Right,

1243
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,600
Speaker 1: you can picture his voice and he's Robert Plant on

1244
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 1: stage with led Zeppelin and he's the front person, and

1245
01:08:55,680 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: then he hears Alison Krause's voice sounds like an angel

1246
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: to him, and he comes up with the idea of

1247
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: what if I could extend out to learn how to

1248
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: blend my voice with a voice that sounds like an angel.

1249
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: And they connect up and they do this beautiful bluegrass album,

1250
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 1: Raising Sand, which is not Zeppelin four. It's a very

1251
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,880
Speaker 1: different album. It's a beautiful album and it's in bluegrass,

1252
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 1: and it's the two of them, and there's this there's

1253
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: a famous song you probably know it, black Dog from

1254
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: Led Zeppelin. Hey Hey, Mama right begins a bang full

1255
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: on classic blues rock ram and he and Alison Kraus

1256
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: do this thing at the CMT Crossroads gathering. It's a

1257
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: country music gathering where they do black Dog in bluegrass

1258
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: and it is this beautiful melodic, slow and seductive and mature,

1259
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: and it just it's the same song. The circle back

1260
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: is black Dog's a great song from the Zeppelin days.

1261
01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: And then he brings it into a new genre blending

1262
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: his voice, and the process of that feeds the fire

1263
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 1: because he's both extending, circling back and extending out. And

1264
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,240
Speaker 1: so what's interesting, as if you look across the lives,

1265
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 1: there's these chances. So like, I don't have to break

1266
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: everything for my past, but I also can't just get

1267
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 1: stuck in the past. And that's the extend out circle back.

1268
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that, and I can't I mean,

1269
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 2: and forgive me. I mean, she may not be the

1270
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: natural segue to the plant frame, but I can't get

1271
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 2: out of my head just the description the twenty year

1272
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 2: old figure skater. Oh, yes, outside speaking of sort of

1273
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 2: melodic voices. Yes, the voices of the crowd. Tell this story.

1274
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 2: It's too good.

1275
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,640
Speaker 1: Oh, if you don't mind me telling the story, I

1276
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 1: get very excited about sharing this.

1277
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 2: I need to hear it.

1278
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: Oh this story so so the person you're referring to

1279
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: is just this really exquisitely beautiful life of Tenley Albright.

1280
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 1: And Tenley Albright became the first American woman to win

1281
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: Golden figure skating and she wanted in Courtina, Italy in

1282
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six. Her match is Carol Heigs, who won

1283
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty. Tenley had this amazing experience and this

1284
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 1: so stays with me.

1285
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 3: So, first of.

1286
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 1: All, if anyway, if you've been to the Dolomite you

1287
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 1: know what this is. But even if you haven't been

1288
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 1: to the Dolomites, so this is spectacular, yessemity spectacular, but

1289
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 1: the Dolomites are massively everywhere spectacular of these jagged peaks.

1290
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: And it's wintertime and the stadium for the skating is

1291
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: an outdoor stadium at that time, and she's skating for

1292
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: the gold medals. She's doing a free skate for the

1293
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: gold medal, and as she's skating, she all of a

1294
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 1: sudden realizes she's hearing a sound, and she doesn't know

1295
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:25,640
Speaker 1: what it is. You have the Olympic Cauldron, and you

1296
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 1: have the Dolomites, and they're somewhere out there is the

1297
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the sense of just the grandeur

1298
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: of the entire Olympic village and everything. And she's skating

1299
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:41,120
Speaker 1: the skate, focused just on the divits and the ice

1300
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: and everything being perfect. But then the sound again every

1301
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,560
Speaker 1: time she get by the boards, and all of a

1302
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: sudden she realized something.

1303
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 3: She'd selected.

1304
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,640
Speaker 1: The back rol from the opera tales of Hoffmann and

1305
01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:01,480
Speaker 1: the audience news the music, and she realized the stadium

1306
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 1: was surrounding them, surrounding her as they hummed her music.

1307
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:17,599
Speaker 1: While she skated her gold medal performance and just imagine.

1308
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: I mean, so then the thing that I come away

1309
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: with is how on earth could the rest of life

1310
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,639
Speaker 1: compare to that? I mean, it's not only just winning

1311
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:38,719
Speaker 1: the gold medal, but those moments in Courtina with the humming,

1312
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 1: and you would think that it would be this is

1313
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 1: the peak of life, and everything from here is going

1314
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: to be inferior to that moment. And then as it

1315
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:54,000
Speaker 1: began to study her life, she went on and became

1316
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 1: a surgeon, had a marvelous medical career, and then founded

1317
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 1: this thing called the Collaborative Initiatives where they're solving big

1318
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 1: problems by collaboration. And I downloaded her bio off of

1319
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,240
Speaker 1: the Collaborative Initiatives website.

1320
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 3: When I first began studying.

1321
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 1: Her life, and I started reading the bio, and the

1322
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: first paragraph there's no mention of the gold medal.

1323
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 3: When you read on.

1324
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 1: Further and you get to the second paragraph and there's

1325
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,680
Speaker 1: no mention of the gold medal, And then you.

1326
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 3: Get to the third paragraph, there's still.

1327
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: No mention of the gold medal. And finally you get

1328
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: all the way down and almost it feels almost like

1329
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 1: an afterthoughts, is this sentence at the very end earlier

1330
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,679
Speaker 1: she was Olympic gold medal skater something.

1331
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 3: I got it basically right.

1332
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 1: But it's about two percent of her bio. It's not

1333
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,680
Speaker 1: because she doesn't view it as as a really significant

1334
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 1: part of her life, but it's this part back here

1335
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 1: and her instead of her life being this, it was this,

1336
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: and her life was this, and that sense of her

1337
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 1: life rising from that point. For me, that's the image

1338
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: that I carry of how so many of the people

1339
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,120
Speaker 1: we studied went about their lives. Whatever peaks came before,

1340
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: they just became smaller relative to what came later. There

1341
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:20,800
Speaker 1: is one last piece I think, though, I would really

1342
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 1: love to chat about, and I'd be very curious how

1343
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: you reacted to it. Is this a big revelation for

1344
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: me was the importance of choosing responsibilities.

1345
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 2: I was just going to go there, Jim. I was

1346
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,839
Speaker 2: going to go there because that's something else said in common.

1347
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 2: I mean, you talk about you know, you had this,

1348
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 2: you know, impact with a professor who sort of Readie

1349
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 2: the Riot Act about asking the wrong question, and you

1350
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 2: know you have the saddle on the horseback frame, and

1351
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: it is that that frame of not looking necessarily back.

1352
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 2: But this notion of chasing responsibility. Oh, come on, too good,

1353
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 2: I read that knocked me off that horse. Yeah, it

1354
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 2: was it, Tony Morrison. That was that was That's where

1355
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:05,840
Speaker 2: it came from. Yes, it was.

1356
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:10,320
Speaker 1: So I had saved my pair of writers, Tony Morrison

1357
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 1: and Barbara Tuckman, for my last pair set to personally

1358
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 1: digest right, because I as a writer, it was like

1359
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 1: a treat for myself to learn about writers. And so

1360
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 1: I'm reading everything about I mean, there's a ton on

1361
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: both of them. But one of the things that Tony

1362
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:30,519
Speaker 1: Morrison did over the course of her life was she

1363
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: gave a lot of interviews and talked a lot about

1364
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 1: her process of writing and how she thought about it,

1365
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: read all of her books in sequence. And that was

1366
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: a wonderful experience in and of itself. Same thing with

1367
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: Barbara Tuckman. But in a nineteen eighty five interview, there's

1368
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 1: this one little line that essentially is the idea that

1369
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: freedom is. It doesn't mean having no responsibilities. Freedom means

1370
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,719
Speaker 1: you get to choose the responsibilities. And when I hit

1371
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 1: that line, all of a sudden, all all the other

1372
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,840
Speaker 1: people in my study that I'd studied all of them

1373
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 1: at this point they're like dominoes. That felt because I

1374
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,919
Speaker 1: saw all their lives through the lens of that sentence,

1375
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: and I realized that powerful idea that freedom does not

1376
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,719
Speaker 1: mean the absence of responsibilities. It means we get to

1377
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: choose responsibilities. And when I looked at all the people

1378
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: in a study, that's what they were doing.

1379
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 3: Now.

1380
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 1: The responsibilities were very different from person to person. But

1381
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 1: it's the idea of choosing a responsibility that one fits

1382
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: with your encodings.

1383
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 3: Two, it feeds your fire.

1384
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 1: Three it might not happen but for you. Four it

1385
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to you if you get credit. Yeah, And

1386
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: that if you choose responsibility, it might be simply the

1387
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:03,639
Speaker 1: responsibility to to honor the musicians that came before you.

1388
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 1: It might be choosing the responsibility to As Tenley Albright

1389
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: we were talking about, she would practice with surgical conscience,

1390
01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 1: something she'd learned about as an idea as a practicing surgeon,

1391
01:18:17,320 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 1: but for her was a sacred responsibility that every patient

1392
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:24,719
Speaker 1: under her care she had to operate with the highest

1393
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 1: level of surgical conscience and care. And it went back

1394
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 1: she was a young girl with polio and there was

1395
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: a moment in her life where they were going to

1396
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:37,480
Speaker 1: put this big needle in her spine, and she was terrified,

1397
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: and she asked for somebody to hold her hand, and

1398
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 1: after a lot of hesitation in the room, a medical

1399
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 1: professional came and held her hand while they put this

1400
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: painful needle. And that notion of healthcare has to have

1401
01:18:56,200 --> 01:19:00,640
Speaker 1: care in it, and that was part of her And

1402
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 1: when she became a surgeon, she made sure somebody was

1403
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 1: holding the patient's hand during surgeries. Not because there's a

1404
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: prescription manual that says you have to do it that way,

1405
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 1: but because she saw operating with surgical conscience as a

1406
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 1: responsibility that she just held at the highest, most sacred level.

1407
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,639
Speaker 1: And when I looked at the people in the study

1408
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 1: who then were able to keep themselves, Franklin didn't need

1409
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 1: to do what he did in his sixties and seventies.

1410
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:34,920
Speaker 3: He didn't have to.

1411
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: He could have just said I'm done, like I'm tired,

1412
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 1: it's over. But he felt the responsibility, as did Roger Sherman.

1413
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: At the founding of the country. You have responsibilities, and

1414
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 1: all these different places where people would say, I choose this,

1415
01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:54,720
Speaker 1: And I believe after doing this study that one of

1416
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:58,719
Speaker 1: the ways the fire goes out is when we stop

1417
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 1: choosing responsibility and the question not what do I want.

1418
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 3: To do next?

1419
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 1: It's a very different question. Or how do I want

1420
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:11,439
Speaker 1: to retire? That's a very different question than well, now

1421
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:16,400
Speaker 1: that my life has changed, what responsibilities do I now

1422
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:21,720
Speaker 1: want to choose that I will hold myself to account for.

1423
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,840
Speaker 2: I can't stop. Well, you know I'm going to end

1424
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 2: on that because it is the right damn question. I mean,

1425
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, masterclass Jim Collins, what to make of a life?

1426
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 2: This is just you know, if I were a professor

1427
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 2: signed reading and anyone who hasn't already picked it up

1428
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 2: and picked up these other books, they you know, with

1429
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:51,759
Speaker 2: all due respect, they're not chasing their responsibilities. Dare I say?

1430
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 2: And by the way, I can't help, but you know,

1431
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 2: I'm thinking when you talk about chasing responsibilities, and I

1432
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 2: kept going back and forgive me, I I just I

1433
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 2: can't think it of you slowing down and driving a

1434
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 2: little slower because you I guess that reflected you, right,

1435
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,360
Speaker 2: just the sense of responsible you had to birth this book.

1436
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 2: That's right, you have an obligation, you're you know right.

1437
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 3: Yeah that you know it?

1438
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 1: Really that's uh, I don't mean it in any morbid

1439
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 1: sense or anything like that. Right there, just there comes

1440
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: a point and I remember this this this also happened

1441
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,599
Speaker 1: with uh, with my with like I remember with good

1442
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 1: Degrade it happened. It's like, there's a certain point where

1443
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:39,599
Speaker 1: I just reached a point where I feel responsible for

1444
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 1: two things, multiple things, but in bringing it out, one

1445
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:50,879
Speaker 1: is I just want to fulfill the responsibility of bringing

1446
01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: it out the best it can be for those who

1447
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:55,439
Speaker 1: will read it. Once the book's in the world, it's

1448
01:21:55,439 --> 01:22:00,800
Speaker 1: not yours anymore. Yeah, it's your readers. So you don't

1449
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:05,680
Speaker 1: make a bestseller. Your readers make a book ultimately what

1450
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: it is, because a book is what happens in the

1451
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 1: relationship between the reader and the book. And eventually the

1452
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 1: author goes away anyways. And so when you know you

1453
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 1: have something that it's your responsibility to finish it, to

1454
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 1: get it out there and then let it be its thing.

1455
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:29,759
Speaker 1: And so I really there's a beginning of good to great.

1456
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 1: I really did. I wrote this in the preface, but

1457
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:36,880
Speaker 1: I really did do this. I went running up one

1458
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 1: of the mountains here, one of my favorite winter trails

1459
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 1: that when I used to run. I mainly ride a

1460
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: bike now because it'd be hard to run as much,

1461
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:48,960
Speaker 1: but running up and I had this favorite sitting place

1462
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: where I could sit and look over the mountains. And

1463
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:56,960
Speaker 1: it's winter, right, It's probably like maybe January, and I'm

1464
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,360
Speaker 1: finishing up writing good to Great, and I'm looking out

1465
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 1: on the snow covered rockies from this perch where I

1466
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 1: could sit in that late beautiful like you have like

1467
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 1: four o'clock afternoon where you start to get that glowing

1468
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 1: sun in the winter hitting those snow peaks. And a

1469
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:17,320
Speaker 1: weird question popped into my mind, how much would somebody

1470
01:23:17,360 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 1: have to pay me to not publish good Degree? So

1471
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,640
Speaker 1: I'm about three months from done with the writing, and

1472
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:28,840
Speaker 1: so I started playing the thought experiment in my mind.

1473
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,240
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there on this rock looking at the mountains, right,

1474
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 1: and this is you know, Joanne and I, as you know,

1475
01:23:33,479 --> 01:23:36,200
Speaker 1: we didn't Our lives had turned out really well now,

1476
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,120
Speaker 1: but we didn't come from having a lot of resources.

1477
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 1: And so I just started playing around the number. So

1478
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: I go to like ten million. I'm like, there's no way.

1479
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, well, ten million to change your life doesn't matter.

1480
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: I got to get this done. And finally I'm starting

1481
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,080
Speaker 1: to get cold in the afternoon. By the time I

1482
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: crossed over one hundred million dollars, I thought, I'm just

1483
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: not going to say, yeah, no, I still wouldn't not

1484
01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: publish it. If somebody right then it said, I'll give

1485
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 1: you one hundred million dollars to not publish this. I'm

1486
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 1: one hundred percent confident out of what have turned it down,

1487
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 1: and that's because at some point it just almost has

1488
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: like a life of its own, and your responsibility is

1489
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 1: to bring it out. The second thing is to be

1490
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 1: very true to what you found, and this one also

1491
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:26,759
Speaker 1: just really feeling responsible to the lives of the people

1492
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 1: that I studied. What I most of them have passed away,

1493
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 1: but I envisioned in my mind them reading what I

1494
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:41,960
Speaker 1: wrote about them, and what I would want is for

1495
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:46,120
Speaker 1: them to feel that I handled their lives very responsibly.

1496
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 2: In you Know, Forgive Me, Chapter thirteen is your life?

1497
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, that your own assumptions, you know, you

1498
01:24:56,120 --> 01:25:01,440
Speaker 2: the things that you you know, you evolved, your positions,

1499
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 2: your feelings here things that it changed in the process

1500
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 2: of writing this book.

1501
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 3: Yep, as well, it really did.

1502
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:12,760
Speaker 2: And so it's not just about the reader. It was

1503
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:15,519
Speaker 2: about you this You came out a different person I

1504
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:17,679
Speaker 2: mean the book ends. I mean, come on, how about

1505
01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 2: that last chapter.

1506
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:22,120
Speaker 3: Well, the last chapter.

1507
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 1: Gives questions to the reader, which I believe are more

1508
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,840
Speaker 1: powerful than just giving them answers in the end. But really,

1509
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 1: what happened for me, and maybe you had some of

1510
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,840
Speaker 1: this with your own writing. You discover, right, the part

1511
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,280
Speaker 1: of the purpose of writing is to discover what you think.

1512
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 1: What I didn't expect was to discover and then change

1513
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 1: how I feel. So in the process of writing this,

1514
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: there are so many things that I used to believe

1515
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 1: that I no longer believe about the way life works

1516
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 1: at its best. I used to really believe about you know,

1517
01:25:58,120 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 1: you have to have.

1518
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 3: A super clear purpose at.

1519
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: All times, and you follow that. And actually, I now

1520
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:09,200
Speaker 1: believe you need to have ever deepening and expanding understanding

1521
01:26:09,240 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: of your encodings and then trust that they will lead

1522
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:13,599
Speaker 1: to something that almost in.

1523
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:15,439
Speaker 3: Retrospect, looks purposeful. It's a very.

1524
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 1: Different way to understand things. So there are lots of

1525
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:23,480
Speaker 1: things like that that changed. But emotionally I changed, and

1526
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 1: I came away with much greater compassion for people going

1527
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:33,080
Speaker 1: through the inevitable cliffs and fog of life. I came

1528
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:43,160
Speaker 1: away with feeling seeing in other people the marvelous, wonderful

1529
01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:47,800
Speaker 1: ways that they're put together, and feeling ever grateful for

1530
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 1: what people are in my life rather than feeling frustrated

1531
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 1: with what they're not. And that happened because of doing

1532
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 1: this book. And then, as you know, the book ends

1533
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 1: with massive transformation, because it was only by doing this

1534
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:07,880
Speaker 1: book that I finally understood why my father, where we

1535
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 1: began this conversation, could never never got out of the

1536
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 1: fog of his life, and his life ended without him

1537
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:22,320
Speaker 1: ever getting out of the fog. And it was the

1538
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 1: last paragraph of the book where I finally realized all

1539
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: of this in writing. When I wrote it, I sat

1540
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 1: there at my home office desk and I cried for

1541
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,800
Speaker 1: an hour after I wrote it, and I literally sat

1542
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 1: there for an hour and just.

1543
01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:39,519
Speaker 3: Cried because it was like this.

1544
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:47,479
Speaker 1: Ah, I can't even I don't even know what word

1545
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 1: to put on it.

1546
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 2: It was.

1547
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't just like relief. It was tremendous sense of

1548
01:27:54,360 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 1: sadness that my father never was able to understand or

1549
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,920
Speaker 1: have the framework that I that this, that this book

1550
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 1: could have given him, but he didn't have it, and

1551
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 1: as a result, his life was fog filled to the

1552
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 1: very end.

1553
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:17,800
Speaker 2: And you didn't know what did you when you put

1554
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 2: down that pen in that paragraph and hell of a

1555
01:28:23,200 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 2: description of the next hour, did you know that was

1556
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:26,759
Speaker 2: the end of the book?

1557
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:33,800
Speaker 1: So so what happened is and as somebody now is,

1558
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 1: you've you've you know, begun to experience this process of writing.

1559
01:28:37,120 --> 01:28:40,080
Speaker 1: You realize that you're always sort of you know, you're you're, you're.

1560
01:28:40,360 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: You don't write purely linary, you're you don't start with

1561
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:46,719
Speaker 1: sentence one and write to the end. There's looping backs,

1562
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 1: and there's editings and all kinds of things, and so

1563
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 1: sometimes you don't really know the ending or even necessarily

1564
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 1: the beginning, uh, when you're starting or when you're ending.

1565
01:28:57,400 --> 01:29:00,360
Speaker 1: And what happened was I I just saw I did

1566
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 1: to write the story at the end of the book

1567
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 1: of my grandmother, who I dedicated the book to her husband,

1568
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 1: Jimmy Collins, who I'm named after my grandfather, a test

1569
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 1: pilot who died at age thirty, and to write that

1570
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 1: story as casting the shadow over my father's life, and

1571
01:29:21,320 --> 01:29:27,679
Speaker 1: the shocking realization that I had that my grandmother had

1572
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:32,639
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the story, it's in the book,

1573
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:40,439
Speaker 1: but they were really tightly bound together married after four

1574
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:43,800
Speaker 1: days of meeting. He was the dashing test pilot. She

1575
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 1: was a beautiful Oklahoma farm girl. But he dies tragically

1576
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: in this test accident and my grandmother.

1577
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 3: After the service. He well.

1578
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:00,960
Speaker 1: During the service, she told me years later, she sat

1579
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:04,840
Speaker 1: there and she just gripped the arms of the chair

1580
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: and just held it and held her just willed herself

1581
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: to not cry and willed herself to hold it together

1582
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:15,719
Speaker 1: as a single mom and the depression of two kids,

1583
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:19,240
Speaker 1: having just lost her husband in this test crash. And

1584
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 1: I asked her to tell me all about the story.

1585
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 1: And you know, well, my grandmother cried at that point,

1586
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:29,639
Speaker 1: and she said, thank you for that. And I said, thank.

1587
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 3: You for what for?

1588
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,080
Speaker 1: You never told the story of Jim and the aftermath

1589
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:36,479
Speaker 1: and his death and him writing his own chapter about

1590
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:38,400
Speaker 1: his own death, what he did in his own book,

1591
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 1: Test Pilot because he thought he might die, so he

1592
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: wrote his last chapter before he died so I could

1593
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,920
Speaker 1: complete the book. And she said, no, I've never cried.

1594
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 1: And this I asked. This was she was ninety four

1595
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 1: at this point, I think, and she'd held her tears

1596
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:58,040
Speaker 1: in for seven decades, and that was what I want.

1597
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 1: And I just was writing this, sorry about that, and

1598
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:04,719
Speaker 1: that's all of a sudden it just realized, my goodness,

1599
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:08,799
Speaker 1: my grandmother had this horrendous cliff. She carried my father

1600
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:12,639
Speaker 1: and his sister over the cliff with her. My father

1601
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 1: went into the fog as a toddler when it happened,

1602
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:18,840
Speaker 1: and he never ever got out of the fog. And

1603
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,640
Speaker 1: I'm just writing this story, and then I write this

1604
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:22,560
Speaker 1: last paragraph.

1605
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:23,320
Speaker 2: And when I wrote the.

1606
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:25,920
Speaker 1: Last words of the last paragraph, I all of a

1607
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: sudden just realized. I wasn't planning that this is the

1608
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 1: last paragraph. It's just all of a sudden it was there,

1609
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 1: and I knew that's it. That'll be the last sentence

1610
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:37,559
Speaker 1: in the book. And that's when I broke down and cried.

1611
01:31:39,560 --> 01:31:43,200
Speaker 2: Well, it's as I say, it's it's not good, dare

1612
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 2: I say, it's great, And it's you know, you continue

1613
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 2: to for guys like me, it's it's just a marvel

1614
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 2: the work you're doing, and how different and unique and

1615
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,120
Speaker 2: insightful it is, and how impactful it is. And Snowshin

1616
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:01,719
Speaker 2: Jim of chasing responsibilities just you know, come on, yep,

1617
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 2: if that doesn't hate you, well, I mean come on, yeah,

1618
01:32:08,200 --> 01:32:11,760
Speaker 2: if nothing else yeah.

1619
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:13,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I have to say it's I I

1620
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 1: was enormously curious for our conversation and and to know

1621
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,960
Speaker 1: that you have followed our work and that it's influenced

1622
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,719
Speaker 1: you at all these different phases of your life. I mean, seriously,

1623
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:27,600
Speaker 1: so come on, I didn't.

1624
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:28,759
Speaker 2: Know every phase.

1625
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: I knew that you like built tlascas I saw a

1626
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 1: reference to that, but it really.

1627
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 2: It's just it's just Jim, you don't know. I mean,

1628
01:32:37,360 --> 01:32:39,360
Speaker 2: come on, just the b Hag frame. I mean, this

1629
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 2: notion of big, hairy, adacious goals like come on, every

1630
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,800
Speaker 2: every corner, every it explains everything every you know, you

1631
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:50,160
Speaker 2: may love or hate me, it's he explains more things

1632
01:32:50,200 --> 01:32:53,360
Speaker 2: and more ways and more days about my motivations, my

1633
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:57,479
Speaker 2: my wife, and this notion of of just you know,

1634
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:00,720
Speaker 2: having a core, but also sort of the notion of

1635
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 2: stimulating progress, changing my notion of leadership, that it's not

1636
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,040
Speaker 2: just about you know, the guy, a guy on the

1637
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:10,160
Speaker 2: white horse to save the day, and and and the

1638
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 2: notion of of just institutional change. Come on, these are these?

1639
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:17,240
Speaker 2: Are these? You know, I've read a hundred business books,

1640
01:33:18,040 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 2: and I've never read a political book that expresses those

1641
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,800
Speaker 2: fundamental values. In a more profound and important way. And

1642
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,880
Speaker 2: there may not be a more important political book should

1643
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:31,280
Speaker 2: be a requirement for every damn executive. Those books should

1644
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:35,920
Speaker 2: be It's not like we live, so forgive me. I'm

1645
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:37,240
Speaker 2: just I don't want to believe it, but I'm not

1646
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 2: going to under sell you. Well, you're not going to

1647
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:45,560
Speaker 2: get away with getting under sold here, Jesus, come on, man.

1648
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 1: Well I I uh, I'm I'm honored that you have

1649
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 1: been such a wonderful uh reader and uh in the

1650
01:33:57,280 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: ultimate end, I mean I I've always said I'm much

1651
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 1: less interested in best sellership than i am in best readership.

1652
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:08,320
Speaker 1: I love it, and so it's a great joy to

1653
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:14,320
Speaker 1: engage in this conversation with you and about so many ideas. Right,

1654
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:19,599
Speaker 1: so we'll be ford in the saddle and choosing responsibilities

1655
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: of that. I am certain.

1656
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 2: I love it no honor, truly, And I know you

1657
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,840
Speaker 2: don't do a ton of these things, and you sure

1658
01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:28,680
Speaker 2: as hell don't want to do them with politicians. So

1659
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 2: I'm am even more grateful in that respect. And so

1660
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:36,200
Speaker 2: it's it's been been a hell of it, hell of it,

1661
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,839
Speaker 2: hell of a gift, and I'm grateful, and I'm grateful

1662
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:41,800
Speaker 2: especially with a lot of the folks in this podcast

1663
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 2: that go all over the damn map. For those that

1664
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 2: haven't discovered Jim Collins, I hope you understand why I've

1665
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:51,840
Speaker 2: been such a raving fan. Dare I say, and and

1666
01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:54,720
Speaker 2: and you will be as well after you pick up

1667
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,559
Speaker 2: What to Make of a Life? Jim, thanks for joining us.

1668
01:34:58,880 --> 01:34:59,679
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1669
01:34:59,840 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 3: A great rest of the day.