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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 3: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 3: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey Paul, Hey Kate. How's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well, it's going well.

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Speaker 2: I was looking through my notes for this episode that

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today, which is such a

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Speaker 2: big story that we're having to break it up into

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Speaker 2: two parts. I looked at the notes and I thought,

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Speaker 2: maybe this is a time in our season to show

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Speaker 2: the listeners how the sausage is made behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: and maybe a little bit about you, because you drop

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Speaker 2: in and you know, you give me your opinion, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure you know how extensive things are with

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Speaker 2: the research back here. But when I come up with

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Speaker 2: a case, I'm always looking for a case that's going

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Speaker 2: to appeal to you. What do you think are the

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Speaker 2: things that I look for in a Paul holes is

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Speaker 2: Happy sort of case for buried bones?

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Speaker 1: What are the keys that I'm looking for?

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Speaker 3: I think first and foremost you're you're probably looking for.

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Speaker 3: Are there twists and turns? You know, So as I'm

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Speaker 3: hearing the details and I'm kind of guessing at, you know,

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Speaker 3: investigative directions and my theories at a certain place during

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Speaker 3: the episode, you know, then you can surprise me. He'll

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Speaker 3: He'll do a right handed turn I'm unexpecting, and so

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Speaker 3: I think that's part of it. And I also think

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Speaker 3: that you're looking for, you know, whether there's forensic evidence

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Speaker 3: in the case yeh, crime scene investigative aspects, blood pattern interpretation,

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Speaker 3: and even behavioral aspects, you know.

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Speaker 4: Which you want me to weigh in on.

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Speaker 3: And you know, as we've chatted over over the course

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Speaker 3: of this season, you know, sometimes because these are such

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Speaker 3: old cases, I don't get all the information that I'm

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Speaker 3: hoping to get, and so oftentimes I'm having to probably

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Speaker 3: speculate more based on sketchy details of what I would

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Speaker 3: normally be comfortable with, but it's legitimate based on the

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Speaker 3: information you provide.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Sketchy is the appropriate word for many of the cases

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Speaker 2: we cover. Because it was sketchy in eighteen twelve or

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Speaker 2: whatever year we're talking about, there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: limited resources. But then there are times like in this case,

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Speaker 2: where we have a lot of information, and part of

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Speaker 2: that is the time period, because it's more recent than

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Speaker 2: other cases, or because it's a high profile case.

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Speaker 1: And that is the case with this story.

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Speaker 2: This is Sam Shepherd, which I know you know a

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Speaker 2: little bit about, and one of my favorite movies is

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Speaker 2: The Fugitive with Harrison Ford and Tommy Lee Jones, and

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Speaker 2: so this is a well known case, even though it's

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Speaker 2: from nineteen fifty four, a long time ago. Don't tell

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Speaker 2: me what you know about the case, but I know

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Speaker 2: you understand little bits and pieces of the Sam Shepherd case, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would say I am vaguely familiar

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Speaker 3: with it, in part just because of its notoriety. In part,

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Speaker 3: you know, some aspects of that Harrison Ford movie you

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Speaker 3: just brought up. The Fugitive was inspired by details from

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Speaker 3: the Sam Shepherd case.

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Speaker 4: And in part.

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Speaker 3: Believe it or not, my former mentor, if you will,

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Speaker 3: from a CSI and forensic standpoint, who was an understudy

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Speaker 3: of Paul Kirk ends up having a box in his

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Speaker 3: garage that contains some Sam Shepherd evidence.

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Speaker 2: It's always in the garage when there's going with you

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Speaker 2: investigators keeping stuff in your garage, at least be in

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Speaker 2: the attic.

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Speaker 4: I can say, I have nothing like that in my garage.

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Speaker 1: How's that good?

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Speaker 2: You're absolved of any liability, I think is what you

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Speaker 2: just did?

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Speaker 4: Bash right?

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Speaker 1: Well, I say, this is the case that I'm interested in.

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Speaker 2: This case has all of the hallmarks of a case

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Speaker 2: that Paul would really enjoy.

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Speaker 1: I put it in a database, and then.

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Speaker 2: Our producer Alexis and our researcher Maren look through the

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Speaker 2: database and start trying to organize information. And Maren does

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Speaker 2: the primary amount of research. She's an outstanding researcher, as

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Speaker 2: is Alexis as an outstanding producer. Thank goodness, because the

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Speaker 2: show would not exist if it weren't for the two

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Speaker 2: of them. So Maren spends a long time pulling together research,

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Speaker 2: and of course, in order for me to present you

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Speaker 2: with this case, I have to know all about the story.

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Speaker 2: So I give her suggestions and then I, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll ask her facts and everything. So with each case,

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Speaker 2: when you and I talk for maybe an hour and

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Speaker 2: ten minutes or something, usually the notes that she gives

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Speaker 2: me front and maybe three or four pages, I'll highlight stuff.

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Speaker 2: And anytime I highlight anything, it means this is something

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Speaker 2: that I need Paul to react to. So I, for

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Speaker 2: the Sam Shepherd case, have in my hand a ten

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Speaker 2: page document.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, and I know how you like to geek

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Speaker 1: out on forensics.

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Speaker 2: That's your job, And so I thought, yeah, this is

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Speaker 2: a two part and so when I see all that yellow,

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Speaker 2: I think, Okay, we really are going to have to

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Speaker 2: dig into this. So that is to me the sign

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Speaker 2: of a really, really good case. And Maren pulls all

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Speaker 2: this research together, you know, I add to it, and.

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Speaker 1: Then we all learn a little bit.

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Speaker 2: With every case, we all learn a little bit more

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Speaker 2: about different ways that we need to research, different sources

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Speaker 2: that we need to use, what's a good source and

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Speaker 2: what's a bad source.

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Speaker 1: So this is a great case.

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Speaker 2: It was yet another reminder of how grateful I am

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Speaker 2: for a researcher like Maren to be able to do

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Speaker 2: all this this is an exciting one for me.

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Speaker 4: With all that yellow, I guess I'm gonna have to

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Speaker 4: pay attention.

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Speaker 1: I hope you have two kavas.

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Speaker 4: Actually right now, I've got an energy drink.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you need three of those. Let's set the scene

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Speaker 2: for Sam Shepherd. So, I like you knew bits and

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Speaker 2: pieces of the Sam Shepherd case from the Fugitive from

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Speaker 2: newspaper articles I've read, but it was set in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty four, and I'm not sure, Like my kids had

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Speaker 2: never heard of the fugitive, and my college students have

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Speaker 2: and I've asked them, They've never really heard of the fugitive.

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Speaker 2: So it was also a TV series based on this

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Speaker 2: case because it was such a sensational case.

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Speaker 1: So I'm interested in what you know.

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Speaker 2: What are the little tiny pieces that you know about

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Speaker 2: Sam Shepherd in that case?

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Speaker 3: From what I recall, Sam Shepherd was married, he was

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Speaker 3: a doctor, and it was a home invasion. I believe

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Speaker 3: this is the case with the robber that he gets

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Speaker 3: into a fight with inside the residents. I can't remember

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Speaker 3: if he gets knocked unconscious, but then ultimately his wife

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Speaker 3: is found killed. And it became controversial because Sam Shepherd

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Speaker 3: gets charged with the homicide of his wife. With the

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Speaker 3: murder of his wife, I think on the forensic side,

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Speaker 3: I think there was some interesting blood patterns, but I

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Speaker 3: don't recall, you know, exactly what they had.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's start with where we are. This is

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four in Bay Village, Ohio, which is less

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Speaker 2: than fifteen miles from Cleveland, and this is a very

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Speaker 2: controversial case. This was for decades in the mid nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 2: Sam was thirty years old, handsome, a doctor, and he

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Speaker 2: was married to a woman named Marilyn Shepherd, who was

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Speaker 2: a year older.

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Speaker 1: Than he was.

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Speaker 2: This is a family like the families you and I

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Speaker 2: have talked about David Lambson, you know, these sort of nice, white,

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Speaker 2: upper middle class, seemingly perfect marriage, someone who has it all.

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Speaker 2: Sam is a neurosurgeon who comes from a very respected family.

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Speaker 2: I gave you a little homework on what a neurosurgeon

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Speaker 2: is and on a sort of a scale of difficulty

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Speaker 2: in the medical field.

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Speaker 1: Is this a challenging specialty? I'm assuming.

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Speaker 2: I know you have to be intelligent to be a doctor,

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Speaker 2: but do you need to be supercharged intelligent to be

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Speaker 2: a neurosurgeon?

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Speaker 3: Well, you hope, so, right, if somebody is going to

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Speaker 3: be operating on your brain. Obviously, there's certain specialties within

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Speaker 3: the medical field that are I wouldn't necessarily want to

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Speaker 3: label anything more complex than another, but have a certain prestige.

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Speaker 3: And somebody is a neurosurgeon, there's a level of prestige

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Speaker 3: with having that specialty.

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Speaker 4: No question.

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Speaker 3: This is showing that Sam Shepherd had a level of intelligence,

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Speaker 3: you know, And as I evaluate this case, as I

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Speaker 3: hear the details, I'm going to be kind of weighing

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Speaker 3: those details against somebody that I would consider to be

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Speaker 3: sophisticated intelligence as the average layperson would understand, but also

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Speaker 3: whether or not they're showing a level of sophisticated and

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Speaker 3: intelligence and how to commit a crime, because that's two

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Speaker 3: different things.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about the smart killer and we've talked about

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Speaker 2: the criminal mastermind and how that's different. You can be

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Speaker 2: intelligent as a person and really stupid as a criminal.

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Speaker 2: We hope that's always the hope to find the stupid ones, right, Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that's the case here. So Maryland

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Speaker 2: was four months pregnant and then they have another child

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Speaker 2: who is a seven year old named Sam Reyese Shepherd.

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Speaker 2: He went by Chip and they all lived together in

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Speaker 2: a lakefront home on Lake Erie. Now, let's talk about

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Speaker 2: being a pregnant woman, because I do know the stats

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Speaker 2: on that, and pregnant women are at a higher risk

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Speaker 2: of being killed than women who aren't pregnant. So already,

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Speaker 2: when Maryland, we know, ends up dead, the police are

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Speaker 2: hyper aware that Sam Shepherd could be a suspect who

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Speaker 2: wanted nothing to do with being a new father and

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Speaker 2: just wanted to eliminate the issue. So I think that

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Speaker 2: in fifty four it probably investigators antennas go up a

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Speaker 2: little bit when they find out the victim is pregnant.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that?

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Speaker 3: Well, in situations where the homicide has occurred within the

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Speaker 3: house and the spouse was president inside the house, then yes,

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Speaker 3: you know, of course, I've had cases of women that

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Speaker 3: were pregnant that were killed, such as sex workers, And

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Speaker 3: we're not just necessarily focusing in on the boyfriend or

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Speaker 3: the biological father, you know, we're also taking a look

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Speaker 3: at the totality of the victimology. But if it appears

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Speaker 3: that you have the husband inside the house with this

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Speaker 3: pregnant wife, or pregnant girlfriend at the time of the homicide,

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Speaker 3: then there has to be that consideration, even if if

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Speaker 3: she wasn't pregnant, but the fact that she is pregnant,

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Speaker 3: are we dealing with a biological father that is not

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Speaker 3: wanting that life change and has decided that homicide is

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Speaker 3: the only way out. And you know, I do want

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Speaker 3: to mention I didn't realize that Sam Shepherd's wife was

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Speaker 3: pregnant at the time, So this is a double homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, four months pregnant. So the Shepherds have a very

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Speaker 1: rich social life.

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Speaker 2: And on the night before the fourth of July July third,

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four, Sam and Marilyn are having a little

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Speaker 2: fun dinner party with their neighbors, and they have a

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Speaker 2: meal with the neighbors, and then they go to the

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Speaker 2: living room where the two couples watch a movie together

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Speaker 2: and little Sam is asleep. The seven year old is

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Speaker 2: asleep during the film. The neighbors, you know, observing Sam

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Speaker 2: and Maryland, they seem very affectionate and you know, Marilyn

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Speaker 2: is sitting on his lap during the movie. This all

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Speaker 2: goes to the state of their marriage, which will, as

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Speaker 2: you can imagine, become important later on. So eventually Sam

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Speaker 2: falls asleep on the day bed in that room.

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Speaker 1: The couple leaves.

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Speaker 2: Sam falls asleep, and Marilyn says goodbye to the couple

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Speaker 2: and she goes upstairs to her bedroom. She and Sam

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Speaker 2: have separate twin beds, and she falls asleep in one

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Speaker 2: of her beds.

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Speaker 1: My grandparents had separate twin beds.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was in the fifties it was becoming

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Speaker 2: a little bit more common for people to sleep in

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Speaker 2: the same bed. But it was really thought that men

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Speaker 2: needed rest and they weren't getting rest by sleeping with women,

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Speaker 2: and women also, and so it was prudent for them

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Speaker 2: to sleep in separate beds. But now, according to one

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Speaker 2: research study, twenty five percent of couples now sleep in

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Speaker 2: separate beds.

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Speaker 1: Really, they say it's because of sleep issues.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I just wanted to make this point that

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Speaker 2: this was not a mark of a bad marriage. Around

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Speaker 2: the late fifties in the early sixties, people were starting

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Speaker 2: to accept that sleeping in the same bed together might

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Speaker 2: be a nice thing.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting and it's important to understand the culture

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Speaker 3: at the time, you know, so that of course, today,

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Speaker 3: if I were to go into a house that say

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Speaker 3: a homicide had occurred, and then icee, oh, there must

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Speaker 3: be some sort of discord in this relationship.

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Speaker 2: So you know, this was not alarming to the police

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Speaker 2: because it was common. So this is what happened. So

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Speaker 2: we have Sam downstairs on the day bed after the

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Speaker 2: couple left. He fell asleep and Marilyn is upstairs in

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Speaker 2: their bedroom, in her twin bed. So around five point

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Speaker 2: forty five in the morning, the bay village mayor, who

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Speaker 2: was very close friends with the Shepherd's, got a call

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Speaker 2: from Sam.

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Speaker 1: He was very panicked.

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Speaker 2: He said to the mayor, whose name was Spencer Kid

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Speaker 2: over here quickly, I think someone's killed Maryland.

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Speaker 1: And the mayor and his.

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00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,680
Speaker 2: Wife quickly go to the shepherd home where they find

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Speaker 2: Sam shirtless in soaking wet pants. His face is bruised

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Speaker 2: and swollen, and I'm going to show you that photo

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Speaker 2: in a second. And upstairs they find Marylynd's dead body

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Speaker 2: in her blood soaked bed. So he has called his

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Speaker 2: friend the mayor first about this.

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Speaker 3: That is interesting to me. In nineteen fifty four, this

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Speaker 3: is in the days before nine one one as we

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Speaker 3: know it today, you know, and I saw it extensively

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Speaker 3: like in the Golden State killer case, which was in Sacramento.

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Speaker 3: Different areas implemented nine one one type systems at different

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Speaker 3: points in time, but up in Sacramento in the seventies

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Speaker 3: they did not have nine to one one. So the victims,

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Speaker 3: if they thought they were about to be attacked, would

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Speaker 3: get on the phone with the operator, okay, and then

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Speaker 3: now you have to wait for the operator to answer,

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Speaker 3: and then the operator having to get a hold of

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Speaker 3: law enforcement. But that was sort of the standard process,

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Speaker 3: so I imagine in nineteen fifty four the first instinct

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Speaker 3: would be to call the operator to get law enforcement coming.

287
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Speaker 3: So Sam is reaching out to a political friend, a

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Speaker 3: high level political friend, as the first person, and he's saying,

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Speaker 3: I think Maryland has been.

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Speaker 2: Killed, yes, and I'm going to show you a photo

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Speaker 2: of her first. I think they've killed Marilyn, is what

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Speaker 2: he said. So let me actually show you a photo

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Speaker 2: of Sam and his damage first. Okay, So this is

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Speaker 2: him shortly after the attack. It looks like he has

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00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,240
Speaker 2: a neck brace on maybe, and he looks pretty swollen everywhere.

296
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Speaker 1: From what I can tell.

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Speaker 3: My initial impression was, Oh, I'm not seeing hardly any

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Speaker 3: injuries on him. Okay, I'd almost have to see a

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Speaker 3: photo of him beforehand, beforehand to see, if you know,

300
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Speaker 3: if I could spot the swelling. But like, his eyes

301
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,480
Speaker 3: aren't black and blue, I mean his right eye. And

302
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,640
Speaker 3: maybe it's the exposure of this photo, because I can

303
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 3: possibly see some swelling to his right eye orbit like

304
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 3: above the eye and maybe to the right side of

305
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 3: his right cheek area. But I'm kind of surprised at

306
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 3: the lack of bruising. I'm not seeing lacerations as if

307
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 3: he had been, you know, punched repeatedly. The nose is intact,

308
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,560
Speaker 3: the lips aren't split. He's probably cleaned up. In this photo,

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Speaker 3: he's already received medical attention. But in attacks, let's say

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Speaker 3: there's been physical combat between two men and there's a

311
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Speaker 3: lot of like fisticuffs, a lot of blows being delivered

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Speaker 3: to one of the combatant's face.

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Speaker 4: It's pretty obvious.

314
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Speaker 2: Let me show you a normal shot of him, all normal,

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Speaker 2: meaning his mugshot. Okay, so this is his mugshot on

316
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 2: the left, and this is him with Marylyn and little

317
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Speaker 2: Sam on the right.

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00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 1: So is he always squinting? He just seems like he's

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Speaker 1: squinting an.

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Speaker 2: Awful and maybe that was one of the issues too.

321
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Speaker 2: I mean, I like your observation. And the reason is

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Speaker 2: because if you look at him and say, I don't

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Speaker 2: know about the damage, then that's obviously what investigators see

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Speaker 2: when they arrive, which is after the mayor and his

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Speaker 2: wife arrive.

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Speaker 1: It's at six o'clock.

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Speaker 3: And so now this is where it becomes important to

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Speaker 3: weigh his statements as to what happened to him relative

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Speaker 3: to the injuries. You know, when I'm dealing with looking

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Speaker 3: at the homicide victim and I need to reconstruct kind

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Speaker 3: of the crime scene and the activities between the offender

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Speaker 3: and the victim, I always start with the autopsy. I

333
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 3: need to know what kind of injuries, whether there's bleeding injuries,

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Speaker 3: what types of bleeding injuries, what types of bruising is present,

335
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,080
Speaker 3: and other aspects, and correlate that with what I see

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00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 3: at a crime scene. So now I've seen his face,

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00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,040
Speaker 3: I haven't seen the rest of his body yet. You

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00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,520
Speaker 3: haven't described any other injuries to me from his body,

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Speaker 3: but I'm kind of curious.

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Speaker 4: So, okay, what did he say happened?

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Speaker 1: So do you want to hear about her injuries first?

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Speaker 1: Or do you want to.

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Speaker 3: Hear his story from let's hear his story first, and

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Speaker 3: that's what the mayor would have heard. That's what law

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Speaker 3: enforcement's going to hear, and the autopsy of Marylyn would

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Speaker 3: be the next day in all likelihoods, so they're probably

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Speaker 3: not learning everything about Marylyn until later.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you a little bit first about his injuries,

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Speaker 2: and then let's talk about what happened. What he says happened.

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Speaker 2: So his shirt is gone. He says, I have no

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Speaker 2: idea how I lost the shirt. The police said. Sam's

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Speaker 2: pants have a blood stain on them, but it's not

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Speaker 2: the amount of blood that someone would have expected from

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Speaker 2: a violent killing if he had been the one who

355
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Speaker 2: killed his wife. There's not that kind of blood. It

356
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Speaker 2: would probably be like, oh my god, cradling her, trying

357
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 2: to figure out what happened blood. There is a three

358
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Speaker 2: point five inch tear on his right rear pocket on

359
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Speaker 2: his pants that could have been during the fight with

360
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Speaker 2: the killer. He claims that he got into a fight

361
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Speaker 2: with the killer. It could have happened when he killed her.

362
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Speaker 2: We don't know, right, So let me then jump into

363
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Speaker 2: what he says happened. So Sam says he went to sleep.

364
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Speaker 2: The neighbors left Marilyn went upstairs, the little boy was asleep.

365
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Speaker 2: He says he woke up early that morning, so presumably before,

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Speaker 2: of course, five point forty, when he called his friend

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Speaker 2: the mayor. He woke up early that morning to the

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Speaker 2: sounds of Marilyn's cries. He thought she was having a

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Speaker 2: convulsion that she had experienced earlier in her pregnancy. What

370
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Speaker 2: is shorthand for that? What would that kind of convulsion

371
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Speaker 2: have been in her pregnancy that he's describing.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, she having a seizure. I mean,

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Speaker 3: is she a known epileptic. There's probably multiple reasons why

374
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Speaker 3: she had had a convulsion, But at least in his mind,

375
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 3: in his fuzzy, you know, just woken up state, he's

376
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Speaker 3: immediately going to a medical issue that he knows his

377
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 3: wife has experienced during the pregnancy.

378
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,160
Speaker 2: Correct, He is completely panicked because he hears her crying,

379
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Speaker 2: and he says when he was on the day bed,

380
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Speaker 2: he made his way upstairs to the bedroom when he

381
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,719
Speaker 2: heard her. He then encountered someone he described as a

382
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 2: bushy haired stranger standing beside Marilyn's bed, who, after struggle,

383
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,199
Speaker 2: knocked Sam unconscious. This sounds very much like the Jeffrey

384
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 2: MacDonald case that we just covered the Green Bray surgeon

385
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 2: who was accused of killing his wife and two little

386
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 2: girls in nineteen seventy, same type of story. Woke up,

387
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Speaker 2: this is what happened, and I got into a big fight,

388
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Speaker 2: so Sam says. He encounters this bushy haired stranger. He

389
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 2: gets knocked out. He comes to and now he's alone

390
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,360
Speaker 2: in the room with Maryland. He checks her pulse, which

391
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 2: is where the blood comes from on his pants, and

392
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,919
Speaker 2: he quickly determines that she was dead. He goes to

393
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Speaker 2: Little Sam's room, which is right across the hall. Little

394
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Speaker 2: Sam is undisturbed and he's asleep seven years old. Then

395
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Speaker 2: he hears a noise downstairs. So the stranger's still there,

396
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Speaker 2: he says, and he goes down. He runs down the stairs.

397
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Speaker 2: The stranger tries to escape the house through the front door,

398
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Speaker 2: which is what faces the lake, their face lake Erie.

399
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Speaker 2: Sam chases him down to the bank. Here comes the

400
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 2: wet clothes explanation. Ok, the stranger knocks him out again.

401
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 2: So Sam is not doing a good job defending himself.

402
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 2: He says, no, so he is knocked out by the bank.

403
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 2: He's wet. He eventually wakes up. He's laying face down

404
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: on the lake shore. He runs back home as well

405
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 2: as he can run after being knocked out twice. He

406
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 2: runs back home, he sees Maryland. Everything's the same, She's dead.

407
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 1: He panics.

408
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,960
Speaker 2: He calls the mayor. Okay, that was a lot of information.

409
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 2: So what do you think about this story? Does this

410
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 2: story make sense to you without you really hearing about

411
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 2: the crime scene and what police found at the crime scene.

412
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think right now, what I'm wondering

413
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 3: the most about is where the day bed was downstairs?

414
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 3: Would the bushy haired man have to after entering into

415
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 3: the house go past the day bed and go upstairs

416
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 3: to where Marylyn was sleeping, Because in my mind, I'm thinking, Okay,

417
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 3: here's the biggest threat to the offender in the house

418
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 3: right there, and is asleep. Now's the time to take

419
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 3: control of that threat before you're going to spend time

420
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 3: with Maryland upstairs. Or was the day bed hidden from view,

421
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 3: let's say, in a different bedroom downstairs, and the bushy

422
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 3: haired man may not have even realized that Sam.

423
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 4: Was in the house.

424
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 2: So here are the maps that were drawn. The downstairs

425
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 2: is the top map. So it looks to me like

426
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: if you see my cursor. I think this is the

427
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 2: front door hallway coming through, and there's a back porch here.

428
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so what I can see the day bed, which

429
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 3: is over on the left side of this sketch, is

430
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 3: where I'm assuming Sam was asleep the front entry. The

431
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 3: offender actually has two options to get to the staircase

432
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 3: after getting through the front door. Could pass immediately through

433
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: the kitchen and up the stairs to get up to

434
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 3: Maryland's room, or can go further into the house and

435
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 3: around the kitchen, past Sam asleep on the day bed,

436
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 3: and then going up the stairs. So it is possible

437
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 3: for this offender to get upstairs to Maryland without passing Sam.

438
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,239
Speaker 1: Does this seem complicated to you?

439
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 2: This seems like a complicated layout, because now let me

440
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: show you the top floor. Here's the top floor, so

441
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: this is obviously mirroring what was on the bottom floor,

442
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 2: and you could see that her bedroom would have been.

443
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: I think it looks like easily accessible from this staircase

444
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: that you're talking about that comes from the garage.

445
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: Is that right?

446
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 3: Yes, As soon as the offender gets up to the

447
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 3: second floor, Maryland's bedroom is right across the hallway from

448
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 3: where the staircase is so this is just going across

449
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 3: the hallway and Maryland's bed is the closest to the door,

450
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 3: so this is a direct shot to Maryland coming up

451
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 3: the staircase.

452
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: So this is telling you that it is very possible

453
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 2: for a stranger to come in. And this does not

454
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: necessarily mean Sam did it. It means somebody who maybe

455
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: knew the layout of this house would have been able

456
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: to do this without Sam detecting anybody being there until

457
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: Marilyn was being killed.

458
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 3: I think that's entirely possible for sure, and it's also

459
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 3: possible that the offender had no idea that Sam was

460
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 3: in the house. Now, if this is just a random crime,

461
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 3: you know, two story houses typically are constructed with the

462
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 3: bedrooms upstairs, but not all the bedrooms, so there is

463
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 3: a little bit of guesswork if the stranger had never

464
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 3: been inside this house before as to where the victim

465
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 3: would be inside the house, and may have to wander

466
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 3: around a little bit in order to find it out.

467
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: Going upstairs in any house is high risk to an offender.

468
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 3: And that's just because that staircase is what we call

469
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: the funnel of death. You had, oh, in essence, one

470
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 3: way up one way down from that part of the

471
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 3: house house yep. And that's in some ways what happened

472
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 3: to the bushy haired man, because now Sam wakes up

473
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: and goes upstairs yep, and is now he has no

474
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: place to go but through Sam in order to get

475
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 3: down the staircase.

476
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: And I do wonder if this is somebody who knew

477
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: the layout of this house. It just seems like you

478
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: would have to know the entries. But maybe I'm wrong.

479
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: I don't know.

480
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's necessarily somebody would have to

481
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: know the layout be helpful most early in terms of

482
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 3: a targeted attack, you know. And of course I'm going

483
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: to want to hear about you know, Maryland's injuries and

484
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: the other forensic evidence, but in terms of you know,

485
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 3: my initial thought, which I was suspicious about, is if

486
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: the offender had to walk right past Sam in order

487
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 3: to get to Maryland while Sam's asleep. Sam's the biggest

488
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 3: threat in this house to him, yep, that's the time

489
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 3: to take control, and he didn't.

490
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 4: But I'm seeing where no in this.

491
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: Situation, because of the layout of the house and where

492
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: Sam was asleep, it is possible for the offense ive

493
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: gotten upstairs and attacked Maryland. Part of the interaction between

494
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 3: the offender and Maryland probably as muffled due to the

495
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 3: configuration of the house.

496
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 4: So that concern of mine is much less. Now.

497
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: Now I have something that I think is going to

498
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 2: make you a little more on the side of Sam.

499
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: Shepherd is innocent here based on his injuries. Let me

500
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: show you the photo of Sam again. Here are the

501
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: injuries actually that doctors said he had once he got

502
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: to the hospital. He was treated fractured vertebrae, a bruise

503
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: on his spinal cord, and he was in shock. According

504
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: to them, he was on a huge amount of sedatives.

505
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: But the police interrogated him multiple times while he was

506
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: in the hospital because he was the prime suspect.

507
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: What do you think about those injuries.

508
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: I know he doesn't have any bruises on his eyes

509
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: and a bloody nose or anything, but it sounds like

510
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: he really did have some sort of a fight with someone.

511
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the broken vertebrae and the bruise of

512
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: the spinal crime. I'm assuming that the bruise of the

513
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: spinal cord was in the cervical area associated with the

514
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 3: broken vertebrae. If somebody were you know, self inflicting injuries.

515
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 3: That would be a very unusual injury for somebody to

516
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: be able to do to themselves. I haven't seen that

517
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 3: in a case. But also I'm wondering how the offender

518
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 3: knocked Sam unconscious not once but twice. Was it a

519
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: blow to the neck. Was it a blow to the

520
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: head or to the face, and maybe some of those

521
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 3: forces transferred, you know, to the neck of course, you know,

522
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: it's sort of like you watch a boxer get knocked unconscious.

523
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: You get a blow to the jaw and the snapping

524
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 3: of the head causes that temporary loss of consciousness.

525
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 4: I'm assuming this offender didn't have boxing gloves on.

526
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so the offender knocking Sam out, the

527
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 3: photo of his face is it's unclear to me in terms.

528
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 4: Of, you know, how bruised or injured he was.

529
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: So I'm questioning the loss of consciousness, and I'm also

530
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 3: questioning how much Sam is remembering right before he lost consciousness,

531
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 3: because typically when somebody loses consciousness, they lose a few

532
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: seconds of memory of what happened before they got knocked out.

533
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 3: So typically people say, I last remember this, and then

534
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: I remembered waking up, they don't remember I lost consciousness.

535
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know how he described it to police.

536
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: He said he encountered this man. Next thing he knows,

537
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,719
Speaker 2: he hears somebody downstairs. Next thing he knows, you know,

538
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: he's running out and knocked out by the bank. So

539
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 2: I think Sam is pretty useless as a witness because

540
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: he's just saying I don't remember anything, and he's got

541
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: these extensive injuries. But tell me what you want to

542
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: hear as an investigator. What do you want to hear? First?

543
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: Do you want to hear about a potential motive, as in,

544
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: is there anything missing in the house, or do you

545
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: want to hear about specifically about Marilyn, what she looked like,

546
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: and then ultimately what her injuries were.

547
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think I'm putting myself right now, you know,

548
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: talking to Sam and I'm in the house.

549
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 4: I need to see the homicide victim.

550
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: I need to know what's going on here so I

551
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: can evaluate what Sam is saying, and then we can

552
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: get into the victimology and see if what I understand

553
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: of what happened in the homicide is indicative of the

554
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 3: type of maybe motive that may be present.

555
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So we want to start with Marilyn's injuries. Is

556
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: that right?

557
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 4: Yeah?

558
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: Because right now we know that she has found in

559
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: her bed and there's an extensive amount of blood yep,

560
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: but don't know what kind of injuries, what kind of

561
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: weapon possibly was used at centri So yes, I want

562
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: to start with her injuries.

563
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: Okay, here are the injuries. She's found in her twin bed.

564
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: She's laying on her back, Her head and her face

565
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: are covered completely in blood. She has been pulled toward

566
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: the end end of her bed and her legs are

567
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: spread eagle. Her pajama top is rolled up to her neck,

568
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: exposing her breasts, and her bottoms have been pulled down.

569
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 2: So I'm going to show you a photo of this.

570
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable showing this on social media. Sure, I'm

571
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: sure if you google it you can find it. But

572
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: you know, my big question will be is this someone

573
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: who has been posed or is this someone who was

574
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: in the midst of a sexual assault? So this is

575
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: a you know, one angle of Marilyn dead in her bed.

576
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, Now do you know is this how they

577
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: found her or did law enforcement? What I am seeing

578
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 3: is is that there appears to be a sheet or

579
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 3: similar object that is covering her lower body. It's not

580
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: from this time frame. I could see where law enforcement,

581
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 3: just to preserve the victim's dignity would possibly do that,

582
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: but it becomes highly significant if the offender took time

583
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 3: to that.

584
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think that this is police

585
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: preserving her dignity. And I've seen this a million times

586
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: where for me, it's been pretty rare to see a

587
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: crime scene photo where some part has not been covered

588
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: up that they feel is inappropriate to show in any

589
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: I think in virtual all of my cases before, I

590
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: would say nineteen fifty, nineteen sixty, that's been covered up,

591
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: and in the details that I have, it says very

592
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: clearly that her pajama bottoms have been pulled completely down.

593
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: So to me, that reads as somebody who was interrupted

594
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: by Sam in the middle of a sexual assault, or

595
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: Sam is really trying to set up something.

596
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 3: Sure, now I'll talk about her injuries, but let's address

597
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: the sexual assault. Obviously, you know her, I'm assuming it's

598
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 3: like a pajama top has been pushed up, exposing her breasts. Yep,

599
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: there's something really telling about her positioning on this bed.

600
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 4: So in this situation, she has been.

601
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: Pulled down with her lower legs at the knees bent

602
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: over the end of the bed. But there's this huge

603
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: it's not really a footboard, but it's the foot posts

604
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: if you will. Yeah, So imagine here she is, her

605
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: legs are spread, her breasts are exposed. How is somebody

606
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: actually accomplishing a sexual assault with her in this position?

607
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: Right?

608
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: And the way to pull her down would you'd have

609
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: to reach underneath these posts, this horizontal post and pull

610
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: her legs down to do that. I've seen sexual assault victims,

611
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: homicide victims, you know, where they're turned into bed and

612
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: their legs are now off the side of the bed,

613
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 3: and now an offender can accomplish actually doing a rape.

614
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: Here.

615
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: I'm looking at this going, Okay, why is the offender

616
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: doing this? Was this the easiest way to kind of

617
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: pull her and position her? Now I've got some concerns

618
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: about Okay, this possibly that the sexual aspect could be

619
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: a state.

620
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 4: Do we have any seeman evidence in this case?

621
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 2: We do, but I don't know if they knew back

622
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: then they took a swab.

623
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you what they said in the

624
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: autopsy real quick. So this is everything they know in

625
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four.

626
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: So it was prepared by a county coroner named doctor Gerber,

627
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 2: and he determined that Marylyn died between three am and

628
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: four forty five AM and classified her death homicide by assault.

629
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: The doctors said that the deceased came to her death

630
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: as a result of multiple impacts to her head and

631
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: her face with COMMUNA did is that how you say that?

632
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: Comm I n uted?

633
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 4: Common you did? Yeah?

634
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

635
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 4: So fractures?

636
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 3: So what you have is you have fractures to the

637
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: skull that from independent blows, but these fractures have joined up.

638
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: Okay, fractures of the skull and separation of frontal suture,

639
00:32:53,640 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: bilateral subdural hemorrhages, diffused bilateral subarachnoid hemorrhage, and contusions of

640
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: the brain. Marilyn had more than thirty injuries. She had

641
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: been struck dozens of times with an unknown object, and

642
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: she received at least fifteen blows on the front of

643
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: her head and her teeth. This is very very violent, obviously.

644
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: Yes, do you have a photo showing further up the bed,

645
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: like where the pillows would be.

646
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: Let's see, I have photos of the blood impressions on

647
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: the pillow.

648
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,479
Speaker 4: Okay, is that helpful? That would be.

649
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 2: So I've got her pillow. I also have her hand

650
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: with a separated fingernail. So do you want to see

651
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: the pillow first?

652
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 4: Yes?

653
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: Please, Okay, hang on real quick.

654
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: See this is part of the making of the sausage listeners,

655
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: and this is what Paul and I go there, he says, Hey,

656
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: I say, hang on real quick, Paul, let me get

657
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: to it. Okay, this is a blood impression left on

658
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: the pillow. But there's another shot that I think is

659
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: a lot more there. There's a close up shot. So

660
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: this is her pillow.

661
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: Lots of blood, and the blood stain on Sam's pants

662
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: is relatively small, you said, right, I.

663
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Have that too, hang on real quick.

664
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: Okay, these are not the pants of someone who just

665
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: killed someone. I mean, but that doesn't mean anything. He

666
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: could have gotten rid of them, we don't know. Oh yeah,

667
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: but it's a little bit of blood.

668
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 3: So what I am seeing, you know, is front of

669
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: Sam's pants. There appears to be a couple of linear

670
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: blood stains on his left knee, and then another couple

671
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 3: of blood stains lower down on the inside of his

672
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: left ankle area. The lower part of the pants leg,

673
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 3: but the rest of the pants, from what I can tell,

674
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: appear to be cleaned. There may be some faint stains

675
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 3: that aren't captured in this photograph that tells me that

676
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 3: he's not transferring, at least with what he has on

677
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: his body at the time he's first seen. He's not

678
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 3: transferring the large blood stain that is present on Maryland's pillow.

679
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 2: And let's talk about that pillow too, because they say,

680
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to move up so you can see it again.

681
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: The police believe that they can see in the pattern. Look,

682
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: here's another shot of the bed. Actually, Paul, sorry I

683
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: missed this one. Look at that blood stain on the bed.

684
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: It's almost in body shape. It's a body shaped blood stain.

685
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: That's a lot.

686
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: And do you know what, since I can't see it

687
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: in the photo, was that pillow up by the headboard?

688
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: I believe so? Yeah, and they removed it to take

689
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: this photo.

690
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So I think the pillow was covering up and

691
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: soaked through, I suppose.

692
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 3: So I'm going to walk you through a sequence that

693
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 3: this evidence seems to suggest to me with what I've

694
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 3: seen so far, is that it appears that Marylyn has

695
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 3: bleeding injuries when her head is positioned further up by

696
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: the headboard on top of the pillow, and then she

697
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: has been drug down to where now the lower legs

698
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: are hanging off the end of the bed underneath that

699
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: horizontal post. The very large blood pool that you described

700
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: as being in the shape of a body. This suggests

701
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: to me that Marylynd laid there for a period of

702
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: time with her head up higher on the bed and

703
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 3: then is drug down. All her bleeding injuries are focused

704
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: up on the head. Blood is not going to see

705
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 3: down all the way to the foot of the bed

706
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 3: underneath her body like that. So this to me does

707
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: tell me that she's laid bleeding for a period of

708
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 3: time and then is pulled down and is continuing to bleed.

709
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: So that's interesting in terms of a sequence. Is she

710
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 3: several blows inflicted on her where she starts to bleed.

711
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: Does the offender attempt or accomplish a sexual assault at

712
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 3: that position and then for whatever reason decides to pull

713
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 3: Maryland down further or do we have where Marilyn is

714
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: killed and then her body is positioned to make it

715
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 3: look like a sexual assault.

716
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think what you're saying, makes sense that

717
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: it's been there for a long time, because, as the

718
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: coroner did say, she was killed sometime between three am

719
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: and four forty five AM, and the police don't get

720
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: there until like six oh two am. So that's so

721
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: much blood. I mean, it's startling. I do want to

722
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: ask you this. On this photo that I've already showed you,

723
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 2: the police are speculating, do you see that the odd

724
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 2: pattern they are speculating that the odd shape of the

725
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: pattern of this blood is pretty specific to a kind

726
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: of a pointy weapon, sort of like a hammer, a

727
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: claw hammer or something like that. Is that too much

728
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: speculation based on how this blood is laid out, because

729
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: there's sort of weird gaps in the middle of this

730
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: blood spill.

731
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 4: I don't see that at all.

732
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 3: I am not seeing anything that I would characterize as

733
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 3: a specific pattern. What I am seeing is is that

734
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 3: would think about a bleeding object or a bloody object,

735
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 3: and it could be Marylyn's head laying on top of

736
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 3: this pillow. Well, what happens when you have weight added

737
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 3: on a pillow, It compresses the fabric folds up, and

738
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 3: then when you open the fabric up like it obviously

739
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: is in this case, you have voids you know that

740
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 3: just naturally are due to the folds in which the

741
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: bloody object couldn't come in contact with because it was

742
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: folded up. So that's what makes the most sense to me.

743
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 3: Unless somebody were to draw a pattern that matches, maybe

744
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: they recovered a weapon, and then I would have to

745
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: evaluate that. But right now, I don't see anything that

746
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: is standing out.

747
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 4: You know, there's a weird.

748
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: It's like a zig zag almost, it's very weird.

749
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 4: Well, the voids don't stand out.

750
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 3: You know, there's voids in this large blood pattern, and

751
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: it's very uniform. You know, where there's blood, it's very uniform.

752
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 3: But then there's voids in the middle of it that

753
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 3: I do not associate with any type of weapon. I

754
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 3: do see a strange, almost a symmetrical shape in the

755
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: right side large your blood stain that appears to have

756
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: outlines that are something that could be associated with a

757
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 3: man made object, a tool of some sort.

758
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I believe they will recover the weapon later

759
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: on in an interesting place. Okay, there are so many

760
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: details in this case. It's overwhelming. There's blood everywhere, there

761
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: are things missing throughout the house. You've got a husband

762
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 2: who claims to really not remember anything and is giving

763
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 2: a very very vague description of a bushy haired man

764
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: who has now knocked him unconscience twice. He doesn't hardly

765
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: remember even being down on the lake front. He doesn't

766
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 2: understand what happened to his wife, his seven year old

767
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: slept through the whole thing, and he's telling the police

768
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: while he's being sedated for all of these injuries. He's

769
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: telling the police, I did not do this. There is

770
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: no motive. And after a week or two, the police

771
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: say there.

772
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Is a motive. Oh, do tell I'm going to tell

773
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: you about that next week.

774
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 4: You're gonna make me wait, making all.

775
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: Of you wait, not just you, everybody, everybody has to wait,

776
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: all right, So come back in one week for the conclusion.

777
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 2: And there are so many details that you probably have

778
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: never heard before about this case. Boy, is it a

779
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 2: roller coaster for everyone?

780
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 4: I am. I am highly interested to see where this

781
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 4: case goes.

782
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: I'll see you soon.

783
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: Sounds good.

784
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

785
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

786
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

787
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

788
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

789
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

790
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

791
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

792
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

793
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

794
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: Barry Bones pod.

795
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

796
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

797
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

798
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold Cases,

799
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 2: is also available now