1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: The night before the deadly violence in Charlottesville, a federal 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: judge issued what would prove to be a fateful order. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: The order said the city had to let the demonstration 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: take place an Emancipation Park the side of the Roberty 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: at least statute that was slated for removal statute on statute. 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Judge Glenn Conrad rejected the city's effort to shift the 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: protests to a larger park two miles away for safety reasons. 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: The ruling put the demonstrators, including white nationalists, in close 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: proximity with counter protesters. Did the judge strike the right 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: balance between free speech and public safety? Our guest to 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: talk about that is Josh Blackman, professor at South Texas 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: College of Law who teaches constitutional law. Josh, thanks for 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: joining us. You were actually in Charlottesville at the time, 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: or at least the night before the violence. Tell us 15 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: about what you experienced there. Well, thank you for having me. 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: I think I have a knack of being in the 17 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: right place the wrong time, or maybe the wrong place 18 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: at the right time. UM. I was in Charlottesville to 19 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: attend UH my co clerk's wedding, and UM shortly after 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: the rehearsal dinner finished. On Friday night, UM I was 21 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: driving back to the hotel and UM along Main Street 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: and passing near the rotunda, and in the distance, I 23 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: hear this faint chanting and I see these lights surrounding 24 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: Jefferson's Rotunda. My first inclination was that it was a 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: candlelight vigil, but then as I drew closer, I realized 26 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: that they were holding torches and the chance, though incoherent, 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: we're saying something about the Jews UM, And then I 28 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 1: figured out pretty quickly what was going on. The group 29 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: of white nationalists had decided to descend on the Capitol 30 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: Rotunda in Charlottesville and a stage of protests to support 31 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: UH their their ideology UM. But that was only the prelude. 32 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: The following day, on Saturday, um UH an assembly was 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: formed at Emancipation Park formerly called Lee Park, which is 34 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: where a statute of Robert Lee was prominently featured. And 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: that's that riot that ensued resulted in injuries and even 36 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: the death of a person, as well as to Virginia 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: State troopers who were a helicopter UM that crashed. So 38 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: this is a very horrific weekend that raises a significant 39 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: First Amendment free speech question, Josh, Let's just make it 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: clear that the group, including the white supremacists and nationalists, 41 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: had a First Amendment right to protest clearly political speech. 42 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: They were represented by the a c l U, and 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: they applied for a permit to protest. Tell us about 44 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: the legal dispute that took them to federal court. Sure, so, 45 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: the general rule, um in constitute, I'm sorry in constitutional 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: law is that the government cannot discriminate on the basis 47 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: of one speech. They can regulate the time, the place, 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: in the manner in which you speak. Um. Initially, the 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: city of Charlottesville granted a permit to these white nationalists 50 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: to protest at um Emancipation Park formerly Lee Park UM. 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: But about a week ago, upon receiving various information by 52 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: social media, the city UH determined that the park wouldn't 53 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: be big enough and that they needed a bigger place. 54 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: They offered to move these white nationalists about a mile away. UM. 55 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: The a c l YOU filed a lawsuit arguing that 56 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: this violates their free speech rights, and one of the 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: key arguments is that the white nationalists had their permits 58 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: canceled for this park, but other counter protesters, the so 59 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: called anti fascists, they were allowed to continue protesting at 60 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: this park. Um, late Friday night, the federal judge granted 61 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 1: an injunction requiring the city to allow the nationalists to 62 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: march at the site. So, Josh, it's easy to sort 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: of look back and say, boy, if the judge only 64 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: hadn't issued that order, Um, things might have happened differently. 65 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: But in your mind, Uh, did the judge strike the 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: right balance between public safety and free speech? Um? He 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: got it exactly right. Um. It's an uncomfortable sentiment for sure, 68 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, Um, under our constitution, 69 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: when the government wants restrict speech, they have to meet 70 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: a very high threshold. And here what what happened is 71 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: that the government did not put forward adequate evidence to 72 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: justify moving the permit. Had the government simply moved the 73 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: protest there in the first place and not canceled the 74 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: permit in the interim, it probably would have been fine. 75 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: But the decision to grant the permit then cancel it, 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: I think, basically made this case turn out to be 77 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: what it was. So you're saying, because it then looked 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: as if it was to the judge, as if the 79 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: it was based on content rather than on safety, and 80 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: you're not allowed to discriminate based on the content of 81 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: the speech. That's exactly right, Josh. What's what what's the 82 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: burden on the government here? Um? You know, normally, if 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: a government says to a court, um, hey, we've got 84 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: real safety concerns about something, we would want to take 85 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: those pretty seriously. Uh. Why doesn't what the government say 86 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: about safety concerns which proved to be true? Um? You know, 87 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: why don't they have an awful lot of weight? Um? 88 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: The reason why the safety concerns were not adequate is 89 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: that the government only relied on social media posts that 90 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, one clans member said in a podcast that 91 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: we're bringing three thousand people in another Skinhead set on 92 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: his blog that we're bringing X number of thousands of people, 93 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: and the court said that that evidence was simply not adequate. Um. 94 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: And the law there's something known as strict scrutiny, the 95 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: idea that when you when you want to restrict speech, 96 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: the courts will be very skeptical of the justifications for 97 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: doing so, and speculation based on social media. Uh, didn't 98 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: didn't meet the requirements. I want to thank our guests. 99 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: That's Josh Blackman. He teaches at South Texas College of Law. UH, 100 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: teaches constitutional law there. He was also in Charlottesville. UM, Josh, 101 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: I guess you. You left down on the day of 102 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: the protest to go visit um if I remember correctly 103 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: correctly another president's home. Um Uh from President James Monroe. Uh, 104 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: but our James Madison. Sorry UH. In any event, UH, 105 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: thank you for talking to us about the demonstrations in 106 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: Charlottesville and the violence there.