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Speaker 1: Tuesday and Thursday. This is Jenni Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
Speaker 1: she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
Speaker 1: I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today, I am
Speaker 1: so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
Speaker 1: my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
Speaker 1: right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
Speaker 1: reason you're all here. Jim and Pam, p B and
Speaker 1: freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
Speaker 1: been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
Speaker 1: So I have to say I almost didn't even want
Speaker 1: to ask them about it, but but I did, and
Speaker 1: I was blown away by how interesting it was to
Speaker 1: talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
Speaker 1: into their relationship and and what made it unique on
Speaker 1: television and why she and John are actually not a
Speaker 1: couple in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
Speaker 1: That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
Speaker 1: as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
Speaker 1: good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
Speaker 1: your ear holes, Miss Jenna Fisher. Bubble and Squeak, I
Speaker 1: love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie
Speaker 1: every month. Left over from the night before. I was
Speaker 1: literally laying in bed last night thinking about this, Like,
Speaker 1: if you think about the office as like a person
Speaker 1: or a body or something, Pam was the heart and
Speaker 1: your relationship with so many different people, well with everybody,
Speaker 1: but really those three, you know, Jim and Dwight and
Speaker 1: Michael obviously the relationship with Jim. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that that relationship resonated so much with with audiences? Oh,
Speaker 1: I think it's the unrequited love. I think we've all
Speaker 1: been there. We've all been in love with someone who
Speaker 1: either didn't love us or couldn't love us, or because
Speaker 1: of circumstances or distance or whatever. These things were we're
Speaker 1: keeping us from being able to fully express our feelings
Speaker 1: the longing. And then I think additionally the clear chemistry
Speaker 1: between the characters that you could see that they were
Speaker 1: meant to be together and you just rooted for them absolutely.
Speaker 1: But I think that there was also something about your
Speaker 1: performance and John's performance. You showed such heart and vulnerability
Speaker 1: that I think people were really rooting for you, whether
Speaker 1: they had found what they wanted to or not. Well.
Speaker 1: I think both Pam and Jim are very good people.
Speaker 1: They're polite. It's one of the reasons why it takes
Speaker 1: them so long. And uh, I think you always want
Speaker 1: the good guy to win, So I think you did
Speaker 1: want them to find one another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um,
Speaker 1: Nothing throughout the entire history of the show brought production
Speaker 1: to a screeching halt like a big Jim Pam moment.
Speaker 1: It's true, and I say that with love and also
Speaker 1: with utter frustration. It Um, Yeah, we really really cared.
Speaker 1: I mean John and I would fight hard for what
Speaker 1: we believed, and we were usually on the same page
Speaker 1: with Jim and Pam. We were had like a singular mind.
Speaker 1: When it came to Jim and Pam. For the most part,
Speaker 1: there was often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and
Speaker 1: it was either where they're going to connect in some
Speaker 1: super special swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some
Speaker 1: way where one of them gets their feelings hurt. And
Speaker 1: there was this very fine line that we had to
Speaker 1: walk all the time. So, for example, shooting a scene
Speaker 1: over and over and over again where this time they
Speaker 1: can touch hands, but then we have to do one
Speaker 1: where they don't touch hands because it might be too
Speaker 1: much when their hands, if their hands touch, that might
Speaker 1: be going too far. Or do we end it with
Speaker 1: a hug or should he kiss her cheek? Before all
Speaker 1: of these little ways, how much were they allowed to
Speaker 1: literally touch one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon
Speaker 1: at each other. I mean we would, we would spend
Speaker 1: hours debating and shooting alternates of these gym PAM scenes
Speaker 1: and ours is not an exaggeration, It is not an exaggeration.
Speaker 1: But what's amazing is this wasn't like mystical producers in
Speaker 1: another land talking of this was you and John who
Speaker 1: are in there indulgent question? No, no, not at all. No,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it speaks to the two of
Speaker 1: you as artists, but I think that there's also the
Speaker 1: camera as a character. And what I recall is you
Speaker 1: and John specifically with greg Or Ken or one of
Speaker 1: the other directors, you know, sort of two major questions,
Speaker 1: who is seeing this moment? Is the camera seeing this moment?
Speaker 1: And how does that change my behavior in this moment?
Speaker 1: And those were the things that I feel like well
Speaker 1: brought production to a screeching hold. This was one of
Speaker 1: the most fun elements of working on our show was
Speaker 1: this camera as a character because this idea that when
Speaker 1: you know the camera is filming you, it affects your behavior.
Speaker 1: It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When he knows the camera
Speaker 1: is on him, he performs for the camera. He does
Speaker 1: things like makes giant declaray shans and pledges of money
Speaker 1: to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of the camera. But
Speaker 1: then when he doesn't know that the camera is shooting
Speaker 1: through the blinds, he tries to talk his way out
Speaker 1: of it. So that is so fun to play. And
Speaker 1: similarly with Jim and Pam, how do Jim and Pam
Speaker 1: behave when they know they're being watched and observed and
Speaker 1: then how do they behave with one another when they
Speaker 1: can't see the camera, when the camera is deep in
Speaker 1: the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I absolutely loved those nuances.
Speaker 1: Those were some of the most fun things to play
Speaker 1: with on our show. Yes, well, and when I directed,
Speaker 1: and I'm not just saying well when I directed to
Speaker 1: get in the fact that I directed. But there was
Speaker 1: a moment later on season eight Kathy Lindsay broad like
Speaker 1: Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida, and Cathy's clearly
Speaker 1: trying to get the moves on him. It's taking place
Speaker 1: in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot the only
Speaker 1: way to shoot the room was through the windows. Because
Speaker 1: of the cameras were in the room, we would not
Speaker 1: have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that we
Speaker 1: ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call with Pam.
Speaker 1: You with Pam that happened there, and I remember sitting
Speaker 1: in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home. Did I
Speaker 1: not come? Because I have a very vivid memory of
Speaker 1: being there when Jim was a smug Bedbug? Was that
Speaker 1: your episode Smugbedbug? I have a memory of watching Rain
Speaker 1: and John crack up as John was a smug bedbug.
Speaker 1: I think that you came for the phone call, but
Speaker 1: we had a huge conversation about you were involved in
Speaker 1: what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim, because John
Speaker 1: wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved, and
Speaker 1: how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship with Jim. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I think it just speaks to everybody wanting to get
Speaker 1: it right. Yeah, we cared on this show very deeply.
Speaker 1: Everybody cared very very much. And I think that started
Speaker 1: with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show, and you
Speaker 1: could tell and he delighted. He delighted in getting it right,
Speaker 1: and and we would shoot something and we would all
Speaker 1: look over at the monitors at Greg and see if
Speaker 1: he was doing his little handclap with his little smile,
Speaker 1: and he puts his eyes up in the air, you know,
Speaker 1: because that's when we knew we nailed it. And he
Speaker 1: was such a great barometer for that. When did you
Speaker 1: When did you start realizing or noticing that Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam's relationship was becoming so important to people outside and
Speaker 1: was it infringing on your real life? Well, realizing that
Speaker 1: my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere in public
Speaker 1: together as friends or else. People would lose their minds.
Speaker 1: They didn't know how to deal with that. They didn't
Speaker 1: know how. And even today, people don't know how John
Speaker 1: and I are not a couple in real life. They
Speaker 1: don't understand it, and I don't know how to explain it,
Speaker 1: because it's a little bit like telling kids there's no Santa.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to break anyone's heart. So
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's it's really hard. You should just explain
Speaker 1: that he's a real pain in the ass life. Why
Speaker 1: would you not just say that? But that's weird. I
Speaker 1: have to. I feel like I have to justify why
Speaker 1: John and I are actually in love. And the bottom
Speaker 1: line is we were playing characters. But I know that
Speaker 1: if people think of us as John and Jenna, then
Speaker 1: it's destroying some of the magic of Jim and Pam.
Speaker 1: But I'm not Pam in real life and he's not
Speaker 1: Jim in real life, And in real life we're mismatched.
Speaker 1: He is perfectly matched with Emily and I'm perfectly matched
Speaker 1: with Lee, and you know us all both And in fact,
Speaker 1: I feel like if anyone wants to marry anyone, they
Speaker 1: want to marry Emily or Lee. They don't want to
Speaker 1: actually marry me or John. Is that a good description
Speaker 1: of why John and I are not imagined relife because
Speaker 1: you know us both. Yes, I think that that's a
Speaker 1: great description. I also think, yeah, you both were playing characters,
Speaker 1: and I think that you, um, and you've expressed today
Speaker 1: how different you are from Pam and John is different
Speaker 1: from Jim. People perceive you to be that even you know,
Speaker 1: if someone has a couple of minute interaction with me,
Speaker 1: they're they're not going to mistake me for Kevin. And
Speaker 1: I think that's so true of like Angela as well.
Speaker 1: Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader. She's your best friend
Speaker 1: in two minutes. She's so not the bitchy Angela Martin
Speaker 1: that she plays on the show. We am even most
Speaker 1: of the time. Oh come on, But but I do
Speaker 1: see how John and I the Lion is a little
Speaker 1: more blurred. Like you can have an interaction with John
Speaker 1: and I and think maybe that we really are just
Speaker 1: like Pam or just like yeah, yeah, um, okay. Do
Speaker 1: you have a favorite moment or moments between the two
Speaker 1: of you that you got to play together. Yes. One
Speaker 1: of my first favorite moments is when we are up
Speaker 1: on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and you
Speaker 1: and Rain are doing the fireworks out in the lawn.
Speaker 1: And that was super special because we had this skeleton crew.
Speaker 1: Everyone had gone home for the day, and up until
Speaker 1: this point we had mostly only ever been shooting in
Speaker 1: a big group in the office with lots of people,
Speaker 1: and here it was just me and John on some
Speaker 1: lawn chairs. It was a summer evening, like a warm breeze, candlelight.
Speaker 1: Greg is up on the roof, just a couple of
Speaker 1: crew members were up on the roof, and it was
Speaker 1: like so peaceful up there, the five of us, and
Speaker 1: then watching you and Rain, who I believe we had
Speaker 1: no way of communicating with, Yeah, just setting off fireworks.
Speaker 1: It just all felt really real and lovely. So that
Speaker 1: moment is one of my favorite moments. And what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're talking about
Speaker 1: Greg and the other two crew members up there, because
Speaker 1: then you're describing sitting there with John. That's why people
Speaker 1: think you're love That's so it's a warm summer breeze
Speaker 1: and we were sitting in lawn chairs on the roof,
Speaker 1: but some of it like it. It's true. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, Matt Son is up on the roof and
Speaker 1: Greg is there, and we're all just none of us
Speaker 1: can believe we're on the roof. And we had to
Speaker 1: take this. They had this old, rickety, rusted ladder that
Speaker 1: was on the side of the roof that everybody else
Speaker 1: climbed up, but since John and I were cast members,
Speaker 1: we weren't allowed, like fork lifted us up there on
Speaker 1: this wearing a weird harness. It was very funny. Um,
Speaker 1: were you worried when Pam and Jim got married that
Speaker 1: that was gonna screw things up? I wasn't because we
Speaker 1: had been together now for a couple of seasons. So
Speaker 1: I think the question was can they get together and
Speaker 1: be a stable couple and will we still care? And
Speaker 1: and I remember having a conversation with Greg where Greg
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know what's going to lose people
Speaker 1: is if we just keep manufacturing these affairs and these
Speaker 1: you know, weird ways that we keep them apart. That's
Speaker 1: exhausting and it's not realistic. And so what we're going
Speaker 1: to need to do is bring them together and then
Speaker 1: give them obstacles to overcome as a couple. So rather
Speaker 1: than obstacles that keep them from being a couple, give
Speaker 1: them obstacles to break through as a couple, like Pam
Speaker 1: wanting to go to art school or Jim wanting to
Speaker 1: start his own business, or having their first kid or
Speaker 1: whatever these things were, that they were going to have
Speaker 1: to weather the storm together, that that would be more
Speaker 1: interesting and more realistic, And people loved it. I think
Speaker 1: that's so smart, so smart, because but he said, you
Speaker 1: know what's not going to be satisfying is if they
Speaker 1: get together at the end of season nine after multiple
Speaker 1: affairs and like all this, like everyone's gonna be like, yay,
Speaker 1: I guess you know. Congrats. I hope you enjoy your
Speaker 1: marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look totally right, that's
Speaker 1: not a happy ending. I've never heard that is so smart. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Okay, so I talked again about sort of
Speaker 1: that emotional core Dwight talk to me a little bit
Speaker 1: about the relationship between the two of you and how
Speaker 1: that changed and evolved. I mean, you were with Jim
Speaker 1: adversaries and made you crazy forever, and then ultimately by
Speaker 1: the end, he says that you're his best friend, Dwight,
Speaker 1: does you know? I think it's that first episode The Injury,
Speaker 1: when Pam has that line, Dwight is kind of my friend,
Speaker 1: But I think there's other things. You know, Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam spends so much time teasing Dwight, and I think
Speaker 1: even go too far. A few times in my rewatching
Speaker 1: of the show, I think there's a few times when
Speaker 1: we're like, actually a little cruel to him that makes
Speaker 1: me cringe and I feel like, oh, that wasn't our
Speaker 1: best moment. But I appreciate because we allow our characters too.
Speaker 1: We don't all every day have perfect moments, right. But
Speaker 1: it's so hard for me to think about Pam's relationship
Speaker 1: with Dwight without thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain
Speaker 1: is a deeply soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon
Speaker 1: lee old man. He's really cranky sometimes and on set
Speaker 1: he would do you remember the time, do you remember
Speaker 1: the time, he declared, oh my god, it was so funny.
Speaker 1: We were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
Speaker 1: just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
Speaker 1: have an announcement. Everyone, on Monday's you do not need
Speaker 1: to ask me how my weekend was anymore. All right,
Speaker 1: every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
Speaker 1: assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
Speaker 1: gummy from right? And I talked to him about this,
Speaker 1: and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
Speaker 1: that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
Speaker 1: my weekend was on Monday's. No more of this bleeding
Speaker 1: into Tuesday Mondays and not. He went crazy because no,
Speaker 1: And I know what he was talking about, because it's
Speaker 1: five o'clock in the morning and every single person that
Speaker 1: you passed is like, hello, good morning, how was your weekend?
Speaker 1: And he what he was saying was like, you don't
Speaker 1: have to talk to me. We just saw each other
Speaker 1: on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
Speaker 1: So he would be like that guy on this set.
Speaker 1: It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
Speaker 1: in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
Speaker 1: had a job offer that was going to take me
Speaker 1: out of town and would uproot my family for a
Speaker 1: period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
Speaker 1: I called him and he counseled me. He is he
Speaker 1: has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
Speaker 1: value him so deeply in my life. But then like
Speaker 1: like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
Speaker 1: you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, because you sound like you want to go
Speaker 1: so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
Speaker 1: want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
Speaker 1: with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
Speaker 1: then you go to lunch, and I was just sort
Speaker 1: of like, are you liking our lunch? Are we having
Speaker 1: a good lunch? How are you tell me about you
Speaker 1: and all this money? But then like if I were
Speaker 1: to do you know what I mean? So it's very
Speaker 1: much like the Pam Dwight where Pam will like be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I love Dwight. I'm gonna go say something nice to him,
Speaker 1: and then he'll just be like, Pam something about knives,
Speaker 1: something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
Speaker 1: but so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
Speaker 1: and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well.
Speaker 1: Like they had a real bond. They really cared for
Speaker 1: one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
Speaker 1: to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
Speaker 1: that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
Speaker 1: leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
Speaker 1: with him. Um, what did he say to you? Well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Speaker 1: Paul fig did that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh. We
Speaker 1: were at the airport and Paul Fike said, Jenna, I
Speaker 1: want you to just run up and just say goodbye
Speaker 1: to Steve, your friend Steve. This is your last scene
Speaker 1: with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
Speaker 1: the sound, We're just going to have a spy shot
Speaker 1: on you. So I thought, okay, So I ran up
Speaker 1: to Steve and I just told him all the ways
Speaker 1: I was going to miss him and how grateful I
Speaker 1: was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
Speaker 1: And I'm sobbing and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to let him go and I
Speaker 1: didn't want the scene to end. And then finally Paul Fike,
Speaker 1: you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
Speaker 1: was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
Speaker 1: just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
Speaker 1: He was like, we just need to tighten it up
Speaker 1: a little because they wanted him to actually walk ahead
Speaker 1: and they had one camera. There was only one shot
Speaker 1: that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
Speaker 1: just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
Speaker 1: I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
Speaker 1: was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well. The
Speaker 1: thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Speaker 1: Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
Speaker 1: of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
Speaker 1: I can say enough how important him as our leader
Speaker 1: was because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
Speaker 1: his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
Speaker 1: be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
Speaker 1: very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
Speaker 1: was our compass that pointed us north and kept us
Speaker 1: all in line, and I really worried, what's it gonna
Speaker 1: be like on set without him. We just all agreed
Speaker 1: he was the most important person on set, and we
Speaker 1: always wanted the day to be easy for him. He
Speaker 1: had the most lines, he had the most work, he
Speaker 1: had to drive the show, and we all just collectively
Speaker 1: were there to support him. And he was so generous.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember, I remember directors would come in
Speaker 1: who were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
Speaker 1: but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
Speaker 1: We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
Speaker 1: so He wasn't like and I'm here kind of guy,
Speaker 1: you know, he was just and I and I say
Speaker 1: this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
Speaker 1: many projects where this is not the case. And I
Speaker 1: see how that, in fact a group of people, when
Speaker 1: there is someone who is leading the ship, who is
Speaker 1: insecure and needs a constant ego boost, and it makes
Speaker 1: me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
Speaker 1: he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
Speaker 1: and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Speaker 1: Will Ferrell, and he's the same way, And I always thought, wow,
Speaker 1: they really have a competition for like greatest person to
Speaker 1: work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
Speaker 1: man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
Speaker 1: even just what is the onset vibe going to be
Speaker 1: like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
Speaker 1: going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
Speaker 1: I'll say it here and this is the only time
Speaker 1: I've ever really publicly said this, but It's always disappointed
Speaker 1: me that we didn't trust in our core office group
Speaker 1: and enough to continue the show without bringing in what
Speaker 1: I think we thought we needed, which were these big
Speaker 1: guest actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt
Speaker 1: like fear drove some decisions two that I does that
Speaker 1: make sense? It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered
Speaker 1: just what would that season have been like like what
Speaker 1: we then got with season nine, where we said, no,
Speaker 1: we're enough, the bench is deep enough, the talent is there.
Speaker 1: We can keep the ship afloat with what we have.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about that season eight.
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
Speaker 1: fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
Speaker 1: else helming, because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, That's right.
Speaker 1: Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
Speaker 1: who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
Speaker 1: does not actually have the authority. So if you make
Speaker 1: him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
Speaker 1: does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
Speaker 1: be and that was the question who should be the boss?
Speaker 1: This was the conversation who should be the boss? I
Speaker 1: mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
Speaker 1: people ask me who I thought should be the boss?
Speaker 1: And I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, like
Speaker 1: does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
Speaker 1: think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
Speaker 1: think Jim was the most I mean, he was lazy,
Speaker 1: he was the most well suited a technical level, should
Speaker 1: be promoted to that job? Correct, Yes, in terms of
Speaker 1: his interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort
Speaker 1: of inspire people. But I think then that messes up
Speaker 1: storylines in a way that for sure, So I guess
Speaker 1: you know when you when when we get back to this,
Speaker 1: it is like, okay, when we need some other force
Speaker 1: of nature to come in and be the boss of
Speaker 1: these people so that they can stay being them? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
Speaker 1: made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
Speaker 1: and then we went into season nine where we sort
Speaker 1: of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
Speaker 1: Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
Speaker 1: the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
Speaker 1: here's an answer. Just it's an empty office. There's no
Speaker 1: regional manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing
Speaker 1: the sound man? Breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian
Speaker 1: onto the show? Was there a conference? There was a
Speaker 1: major conference, many conferences. So for season nine, John and
Speaker 1: I were producers. We were given those titles because we
Speaker 1: were brought in to really discuss the Jim Pam arc
Speaker 1: of the final season, and so we spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time up in the writer's room talking about all
Speaker 1: the beats of that story and what it would be.
Speaker 1: I did many on camera auditions with various Brian's to
Speaker 1: be the boom operator, and then many discussions about who
Speaker 1: exactly it should be. There was this one actor who
Speaker 1: was just phenomenal, who just looked so much like John
Speaker 1: Krasinski that we had a whole discussion about whether or
Speaker 1: not he should look too much like John Krasinski, if
Speaker 1: that would feel like Pam, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: and like all this stuff, and so anyway, I liked
Speaker 1: that storyline. I thought it was really interesting because another
Speaker 1: part of season nine was that we were going to
Speaker 1: release the documentary that you were going to see what
Speaker 1: how it affects these people's lives for them to see
Speaker 1: themselves in a documentary, And I think that's really great
Speaker 1: closure for the show as well. Perfect I think it
Speaker 1: was an underrated ending of the show. I felt like
Speaker 1: Greg very clearly had a story that he wanted to tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that when you're live that your anticipation,
Speaker 1: there's almost nothing that can meet your expectations. But I
Speaker 1: think if you go back and you watch it, you
Speaker 1: see just the brilliance of how he tied it all
Speaker 1: up truly. Um, when did you find out that Steve
Speaker 1: was coming back for the finale? Did you know early on?
Speaker 1: I feel like I almost always knew because John and
Speaker 1: I had been up in the writer's room talking about
Speaker 1: the finale and we were sworn secrecy. So I feel
Speaker 1: like I knew for a pretty long time, and I
Speaker 1: knew that there was a lot of trickery going on
Speaker 1: that he was not written into the final script. At
Speaker 1: the final table read, there was a scene between Dwight
Speaker 1: and Steve, but it was written between White and Creed,
Speaker 1: and Creed read the lines at the final table read,
Speaker 1: and that was because they did not want anyone at
Speaker 1: the network to know that Steve was coming back. It
Speaker 1: was a huge secret. They didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah,
Speaker 1: please it and and to ruin the surprise of Steve
Speaker 1: being in the finale. Um, what's your memory from that were?
Speaker 1: Do you more laughy or cry like in the table reads? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think I cried a little bit every single day.
Speaker 1: I was a crier at the table read. I was crying.
Speaker 1: That was really emotional that last table read. Chris Workman,
Speaker 1: our camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last
Speaker 1: table read that Angela has blown up in her house
Speaker 1: on her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment
Speaker 1: right after we said the last line. And then I
Speaker 1: remember that Pam has the last line of the show,
Speaker 1: and they had originally scheduled it so that that would
Speaker 1: be the very last thing we shoot. And I think
Speaker 1: it was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
Speaker 1: we don't all want to be wrapped, and then Jenna
Speaker 1: has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, we gotta have the last scene be
Speaker 1: with everybody. And after I finished my talking head, we
Speaker 1: shot the b roll of me taking the picture off
Speaker 1: the wall and all of us walking out the door.
Speaker 1: And we did it, I don't know how many times,
Speaker 1: five or six, but we would take the thing off
Speaker 1: the wall and all walk out, and then we would
Speaker 1: all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
Speaker 1: many of us cramped by this elevator, and there would
Speaker 1: be this moment where we would wait to see if
Speaker 1: they were going to say cut going again or cut
Speaker 1: that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
Speaker 1: about that, because those seconds of waiting, and every time
Speaker 1: I just wanted them to stay cut going again, because
Speaker 1: I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
Speaker 1: was a wrap. That was it. I'd never shoot the
Speaker 1: office again. And when they said that's a rap, I
Speaker 1: just burst into tears and started hugging the closest people
Speaker 1: that I could find, and and it was it was
Speaker 1: really it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: will you play that. I thought it was weird when
Speaker 1: you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
Speaker 1: I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
Speaker 1: a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: beauty and ordinary things, isn't that kind of the point
Speaker 1: to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about that,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What do
Speaker 1: you think it was about, Great Daniels, I think that's
Speaker 1: what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
Speaker 1: I always thought selfishly, because it was my job to
Speaker 1: view the show through my character, It's not lost on
Speaker 1: me that when Pam was ready to break free of
Speaker 1: dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
Speaker 1: thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
Speaker 1: finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
Speaker 1: she's trapped behind this desk and she sort of slowly
Speaker 1: moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
Speaker 1: and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
Speaker 1: she really fights against leaving, and then when she's ready
Speaker 1: to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
Speaker 1: when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Speaker 1: Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
Speaker 1: documentary on Pam Leaves. That's so interesting. From the creator
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Speaker 1: for adults and boring for Max. But suddenly Max's school
Speaker 1: year starts to look a bit more interesting when a
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Speaker 1: Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have
Speaker 1: your dad be like, why you're so down? So you
Speaker 1: told him you hate your job and he said, well,
Speaker 1: you better talk yourself out of it, And then you
Speaker 1: thought hmm, I love to talk. I could host a podcast.
Speaker 1: And then you went to Speaker from my Heart and
Speaker 1: started a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it,
Speaker 1: then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks
Speaker 1: for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not
Speaker 1: what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is.
Speaker 1: But you seem happy. So that's great, kiddo. You ever
Speaker 1: do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's
Speaker 1: spr e A k E. R. Ask your dad you
Speaker 1: actually don't. Do you think the Office can be made today? No,
Speaker 1: I don't think it could. Well, I don't know if
Speaker 1: it could be made today. It's a good question. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, something I want to point out our
Speaker 1: question I want to ask you is people always ask
Speaker 1: us if we're all really friends in real life, And
Speaker 1: I don't even think saying that we're friends in real
Speaker 1: life accurately communicates how deeply I feel for you and everybody.
Speaker 1: It's a like a love of family, Like I can't
Speaker 1: explain it. Do you think if we've made this show
Speaker 1: in the age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would
Speaker 1: be as deeply connected? Like don't you think like the circumstances.
Speaker 1: That's of us being trapped on that set for the
Speaker 1: first season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
Speaker 1: just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
Speaker 1: room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
Speaker 1: ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
Speaker 1: And I think that that lent itself to part of
Speaker 1: the magic. And I just wonder if if you tried
Speaker 1: to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
Speaker 1: wouldn't we just have our phones and our desks? I
Speaker 1: think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
Speaker 1: we for sure. What I think is we were a
Speaker 1: collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
Speaker 1: It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
Speaker 1: yes stuck together, and we weren't all famous. We came
Speaker 1: from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
Speaker 1: When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
Speaker 1: girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
Speaker 1: from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
Speaker 1: to the wedding and she said, they're going to be
Speaker 1: famous people there, you know, And I said, no, not really,
Speaker 1: We're not really friends with a lot of famous people,
Speaker 1: you know, and then she's like, well, are the cast
Speaker 1: members from the Office going to be there? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll be there, and she was like, well they're famous,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. But
Speaker 1: even now today, I don't think of us that way.
Speaker 1: I still always think of us as the people in
Speaker 1: the room before anyone cared or anyone knew who we were,
Speaker 1: and so being on that journey together as well, I
Speaker 1: think really bonded us. But I don't know if we
Speaker 1: could make the show today. It's it's really hard to say.
Speaker 1: It was such a moment in time. Can you make
Speaker 1: a show today with total unknowns? I don't know. Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley kind of, there's other shows. Well, let me ask
Speaker 1: why do you think the show is more popular now
Speaker 1: than it was when it was on. My answer is
Speaker 1: very simple. The show is excellent. It's excellent. It is
Speaker 1: absolutely brilliantly executed, and it holds up because it's just
Speaker 1: that good. Really. But you know, it's funny. I started
Speaker 1: this podcast with Angela where we watch an episode of
Speaker 1: the Office. We started from the beginning, we break it down.
Speaker 1: This was not my this is not a plug moment.
Speaker 1: We were about to go there in a minute, but anyway,
Speaker 1: go ahead. Now, what I was going to say is
Speaker 1: Angela and I are doing this podcast and we have
Speaker 1: to watch an episode the office and then we discuss it.
Speaker 1: So I've been watching the show from the very beginning.
Speaker 1: Had you watched the show since they aired? No, you
Speaker 1: had not. I had seen a few here and there.
Speaker 1: I had seen the dinner party. I had. I had
Speaker 1: been in a trailer on a job and I had
Speaker 1: a teeny tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer.
Speaker 1: It was so small. She's not joking right now. She
Speaker 1: just held up her fingers and showed three inches. I
Speaker 1: don't think the televison now, it's more like five inches.
Speaker 1: It was smaller than a laptops screen. It was very tiny,
Speaker 1: and it's so I was, so that's what she said.
Speaker 1: I was so tickled by it that I took a
Speaker 1: picture and I sent it to Steve and John and
Speaker 1: Ed and Angela and all of us who had been
Speaker 1: in that scene where we were laughing so hard at
Speaker 1: Michael's tiny flat screen TV. And then that made me
Speaker 1: want to watch that episode. So then I went and
Speaker 1: watched the Dinner Party episode, and then a few examples
Speaker 1: of things like that where you're flipping through and you
Speaker 1: an episode comes on or something like that. But no,
Speaker 1: I have not seen most of these episodes since they aired,
Speaker 1: so it's been really cool for me. And I have
Speaker 1: to say, I really get why people are so excited
Speaker 1: about the show. Like, as I watch it again, I'm
Speaker 1: really watching it almost as a fan, and it's weird
Speaker 1: that I'm on it in some ways when I'm watching myself,
Speaker 1: I've always thought it was weird. Is that a fact?
Speaker 1: I don't know. But before I started doing that, I
Speaker 1: was on Greg to do a reunion special or revived
Speaker 1: the office in some way selfishly because I just want
Speaker 1: to work with all you all again, and because I
Speaker 1: know Steve has a really good idea, and I thought,
Speaker 1: let's get Steve's idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg,
Speaker 1: you gotta do it. Well. Now that I've been rewatching
Speaker 1: the show, I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
Speaker 1: is so perfect just as it is, like, I don't
Speaker 1: think we should now. I was such a champion for
Speaker 1: doing it for so long and now I'm realizing, maybe
Speaker 1: it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
Speaker 1: want to have this weird extra seven years later or
Speaker 1: episode that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, here
Speaker 1: you do have. Here's the beauty is of the ability
Speaker 1: to edit out whatever I say right now. I have
Speaker 1: no interest in it, in doing it in a reunion episode. Yes,
Speaker 1: but have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea,
Speaker 1: that has a good idea. What if we did it
Speaker 1: in Scranton, Brian, what if that's the thing that we
Speaker 1: come back for, is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton.
Speaker 1: Steve's idea? Alright, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I think the show is just perfect as
Speaker 1: it is. Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day.
Speaker 1: There's one episode of the Office called pet Day. Well
Speaker 1: it wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right. I
Speaker 1: have the script. I have what you do. In fact,
Speaker 1: I signed scripts, obviously to give away to charities. I
Speaker 1: have a gigantic box of scripts that because we would
Speaker 1: get multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
Speaker 1: but we would get and there in my garage and
Speaker 1: boxes and I reached in and grabbed one and it
Speaker 1: was pet Day, pet Day? And I thought, what if
Speaker 1: I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness, I
Speaker 1: looked at what the title was, because that could have
Speaker 1: been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
Speaker 1: I said to Greg, what if we do a special
Speaker 1: where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
Speaker 1: and we all come together and we read pet Day.
Speaker 1: But wasn't there a reason we didn't do Pet Day?
Speaker 1: Animal cruelty, I believe was the reason we didn't do
Speaker 1: pet Day because there's like some awful bird death in
Speaker 1: it or something I can't remember. A bird death and
Speaker 1: a porcupine in Dwight's desk we did, and a throws
Speaker 1: a cat a cat and one gets frozen. And no,
Speaker 1: there's Greg must not like animals. Um, is there anything else,
Speaker 1: anything else that you want covered that you feel like
Speaker 1: we didn't? I mean, obviously there's so much. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know you did, you were very good.
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything, really, I think something that's
Speaker 1: really interesting to talk about two Because you talk about
Speaker 1: how there were like the theater people and the comedians,
Speaker 1: and then there were the improv people. But There were
Speaker 1: also all of these ways that we were weirdly connected,
Speaker 1: like that Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis,
Speaker 1: as did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois,
Speaker 1: which is basically St. Louis. And then also our a
Speaker 1: d rusty Mahmud grew up in St. Louis. So there
Speaker 1: were four of us St Louis in's. Then there were
Speaker 1: a bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and
Speaker 1: Steve and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact
Speaker 1: that like b J and John went to the same
Speaker 1: high school and I went to the You and Ed
Speaker 1: went to the same high school. And Angela and Oscar
Speaker 1: were in an improv group together, and she walked on
Speaker 1: set and was like, oh my god, Oscar, you got
Speaker 1: cast in this. It was a complete shock to her.
Speaker 1: She'd done improv with Kate. So there were these ways
Speaker 1: where we'd all been kind of circling each other in
Speaker 1: this weird way and then all finally came together. There
Speaker 1: were so many coincidences in how we were connected totally. Yes,
Speaker 1: I remember shooting a scene for webisodes and was in
Speaker 1: the annex camera on me. I was shooting a talking
Speaker 1: head and suddenly I saw Ed Helms walking behind the
Speaker 1: I was like, Ed, what what are you? And he
Speaker 1: was there to meet with Greg and about joining the show.
Speaker 1: This is between season two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I love you, Brian. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you coming and I hope this has been some fun.
Speaker 1: I could talk for hours about our show. I love
Speaker 1: that you're doing this because I want to hear what
Speaker 1: everybody says. Ye, well, there you go. I love you,
Speaker 1: I love you, Thank you. That is a rap on
Speaker 1: Jenna Fisher here at the office. Deep dive Jenna, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing your time with us. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say this to your face, but
Speaker 1: I think that we all know Kevin was the real
Speaker 1: emotional core of the office. I mean, you can keep
Speaker 1: thinking pay them, but I say, it's keV dog. But
Speaker 1: you were so great here. I'm gonna let you have it.
Speaker 1: I'll even forgive the fact that you're a Cardinals fan.
Speaker 1: Go Dodgers listeners. Thank you so much for joining us,
Speaker 1: even all your car those fans, and get ready because
Speaker 1: next week. Oh it's the big one, folks, It's the
Speaker 1: big Cone. Of the Big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
Speaker 1: Steve Correll, have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
Speaker 1: is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
Speaker 1: our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer.
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
Speaker 1: my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
Speaker 1: by seth Olandsky. Yeah. Hi, my name is Cassid Zachary
Speaker 1: and I am April Callahan, and we are fashion historian
Speaker 1: and co hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed
Speaker 1: the History of Fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the
Speaker 1: significance of dress from throughout history and around the world,
Speaker 1: and we are so excited to bring you a brand
Speaker 1: new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and exploring the history
Speaker 1: of everything from courses to blue jeans. Dressed the History
Speaker 1: of Fashion is available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New
Speaker 1: episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. Hey, Dania Goodyear here.
Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered how a true crime podcast like
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