Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on
Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new
Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking
Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely
Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty
Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's
Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,
Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM
Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly
Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories
Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden
Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,
Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part
Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.
Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule. It's two thousand and
Speaker 1: six and a teenager named Jaslene Gonzalez just sentend her
Speaker 1: on d to be on America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2: I should be America's like Tima, because I devoted myself
Speaker 2: to this every day. It is like a fashion opportunity.
Speaker 1: I caught up with Jaslene earlier this year. These days,
Speaker 1: she's a preschool teacher and she has the soft spoken
Speaker 1: demeanor to match. But back in two thousand and six,
Speaker 1: being on A and TM was her dream.
Speaker 3: I come from a Puerto Rican culture and in Chicago,
Speaker 3: no one was talling skinny, so I was just like
Speaker 3: the model of the town.
Speaker 1: But there weren't too many high fashion runways in her
Speaker 1: neighborhood in Chicago, so she got exposure elsewhere.
Speaker 3: From a very young age, I grew up on the stage.
Speaker 4: I was singing, a dancer, but then naturally I progressed
Speaker 4: into becoming a model. I started competing in pageants, and
Speaker 4: I also started doing hair shows for.
Speaker 3: This Latino woman who owned the hair salon, and I
Speaker 3: started to realize we would win every competition, that I
Speaker 3: would grace the runway.
Speaker 1: On people at school and in her neighborhood. Also started
Speaker 1: to realize there was something special about Jasleen. Remember this
Speaker 1: was also in an era where if you were a tall,
Speaker 1: pretty girl, people would tell you should.
Speaker 3: Be on America's Next Top Model, you show audition for
Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 1: That's all I ever heard about. So she did. Jaslene
Speaker 1: got her dad to rent a car and she drove
Speaker 1: six hours from Chicago to the nearest audition in Cleveland.
Speaker 1: And when she got there, oh, Jaslen was ready.
Speaker 3: I remember my first opportunity to be exposed to the camera.
Speaker 3: I had to step out when they called my name,
Speaker 3: saved my name, my height.
Speaker 1: And where I'm from.
Speaker 3: So I was preparing myself mentally, this is going to
Speaker 3: be the time to shine. I said my name, my heights,
Speaker 3: and where I'm from, like the most Choshawk diva ever.
Speaker 1: When Jaslen started telling me about her semi finals audition,
Speaker 1: her preschool teacher persona melted away. She was filled with
Speaker 1: the energy I remember from A ANDTM. I could see
Speaker 1: the energy that got her into the semifinals.
Speaker 3: The next day, I had to stay at a hotel
Speaker 3: and that was where the casting director was actually present,
Speaker 3: which was Michelle Mack. And she had a camera in
Speaker 3: front of her and she had asked each and every girl,
Speaker 3: when you come up to me, consider this camera Tyra Banks,
Speaker 3: and you gotta tell Tyra Banks why you want to
Speaker 3: be on America's next top model. So the girls were
Speaker 3: all coming up and they were all giving a sobbing story.
Speaker 3: I mean I'm talking about every girl was crying, she
Speaker 3: had issues, she had this. So I'm in my mind
Speaker 3: like no, no, no, no no. I finally get off
Speaker 3: and I started telling the shell mark and the camera
Speaker 3: that I should be America's next toup Mara because I
Speaker 3: got the move, I got the attitude. I can oh
Speaker 3: say this and that, and I was so energetic like
Speaker 3: I had lifted something up in that room that I
Speaker 3: promise you God is my witness. Every girl after started
Speaker 3: talking like me.
Speaker 1: Jsleen's performance landed her in front of the Queen and
Speaker 1: her trusted advisors.
Speaker 3: Hi, my name is Chae Clean.
Speaker 2: I am nineteen years old.
Speaker 3: Did you learn all that in Catholic school?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: That come to tray so.
Speaker 2: Many different lines?
Speaker 1: Give me some looks? What looks can you?
Speaker 5: Ptra?
Speaker 1: I can give you next twenty one? Next, what else?
Speaker 1: Jessleen nailed her audition in front of Tyra and the Jays,
Speaker 1: But once she left that room, she had another very
Speaker 1: important room to go into. Here's longtime ANTM creative director
Speaker 1: and judge j Manuel explaining what happened to the wannabe
Speaker 1: contestants after they left the judging panel.
Speaker 6: The girls come in and meet with Miss Jay Tyra
Speaker 6: and myself, but they go out of our room and
Speaker 6: they literally go into three other rooms. We're three independent psychologists.
Speaker 6: They get an evaluation.
Speaker 1: Jay Manuel is talking about the psychological evaluation. Everyone to
Speaker 1: be contestant had to go through a series of tests
Speaker 1: and conversations with the psychologists to determine if they were
Speaker 1: mentally fit enough to be on the show.
Speaker 6: Had a red, an orange, and a green, and so
Speaker 6: the green was obviously totally mentally capable to be on
Speaker 6: the show, and then Orange and then red were not
Speaker 6: allowed to be on the show.
Speaker 1: Jaslene, like all the other contestants, answered a series of questions.
Speaker 1: They were asked about their background, their relationships, their struggles.
Speaker 1: After Jaslene met with the show psychologists, she and all
Speaker 1: the other finalists were gathered to hear Tyra make her
Speaker 1: final selections. This was the last cut to see who
Speaker 1: would officially be joining the cast of A and TM
Speaker 1: Cycle seven.
Speaker 3: The last girl that will join these twelve lucky ladies over.
Speaker 1: Here is Jaslene. Wait and waited and waited. If other
Speaker 1: names were called Jaslene didn't make the cut.
Speaker 3: She counted down the girls that were going to go
Speaker 3: into the house, and I was not in that pool.
Speaker 3: I'm giving up. We shouldn't give up. I was very
Speaker 3: upset and kind of dumbfounded by those results. I thought
Speaker 3: I was going to make it into the house.
Speaker 1: When Jaslene got cut, she was so distraught she couldn't
Speaker 1: even bring herself to do her exit interview.
Speaker 3: They eventually had to bring a producer to me to
Speaker 3: sit me down and tell me the reason why I
Speaker 3: didn't get picked.
Speaker 1: The producer told her it wasn't her runway walk that
Speaker 1: got her cut. It wasn't about her not looking good
Speaker 1: in photos. It wasn't that she didn't have that it factor.
Speaker 1: She did. Jaslene was cut because of something she told
Speaker 1: the show psychologist. Want to beyond Some, want to beyond Some.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm
Speaker 1: Bridget Armstrong. Every ANTM hopeful had to undergo a psychological
Speaker 1: evaluation before being cast on the show. For many, it
Speaker 1: was just a long, tedious bump on the way to
Speaker 1: their dream. But for Jaslene Gonzales, it was the thing
Speaker 1: that got her sent home. Here's what she shared with
Speaker 1: A ANDTM psychologists.
Speaker 3: I was very open and explicit about my relationship with
Speaker 3: my boyfriend at the time. I spoke about the highs
Speaker 3: and lows that I was going through.
Speaker 1: But to the psychologists, it sounded like more than highs
Speaker 1: and lows. It sounded like Jaslene was in danger.
Speaker 3: The therapist had overruled Tyra Binks's decision to put me
Speaker 3: into the house because I was in an abusive relationship.
Speaker 3: That was the first time I had ever heard that
Speaker 3: I was in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 1: Jaslene told the psychologist that her boyfriend was controlling and jealous.
Speaker 1: He would accuse her of cheating and go through her phone,
Speaker 1: and sometimes the abuse turned physical. But rather than putting
Speaker 1: her in the house and making her abusive relationship a
Speaker 1: storyline or just sending her home with no explanation at all,
Speaker 1: Jaslene says A and TM producers made a deal with her.
Speaker 3: They were like, you know, if you get out of
Speaker 3: that relationship, if you get help, we would guarantee your
Speaker 3: spot back into the house. And so I underwent six
Speaker 3: months of therapy to understand what domestic violence is, how
Speaker 3: to get out of it, built some confidence in so
Speaker 3: once I came back, I auditioned.
Speaker 1: And the rest is history.
Speaker 3: America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 2: Yes, Jessie, I didn't make it the first time, but
Speaker 2: now look at me.
Speaker 3: I'm America's next Top Model. I'm a coverer and I
Speaker 3: think that shows to all young women. If you have
Speaker 3: that drive, keep going.
Speaker 1: Jessie made it into the house on cycle eight and
Speaker 1: won the whole thing. She told me A and TM
Speaker 1: wasn't just a show she won or her ticket into
Speaker 1: the modeling industry. It was a lifeline.
Speaker 3: I didn't see those bad patterns, bad behavior as an
Speaker 3: abusers profile, so I would have seen my ex boyfriend
Speaker 3: as someone just normal treating me normal.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So there was this new awareness that now I cary
Speaker 3: Eve him throughout my life. To this day, I feel
Speaker 3: like being on america Next Top Model actually saved my life.
Speaker 1: Jazzleene's experience with the A and TM psyche vow is
Speaker 1: an example of how it worked at its best, But
Speaker 1: Jazzleene's story is rare. For a lot of contestants, it
Speaker 1: was just an annoying thing they had to do to
Speaker 1: get on the show. But there are some who say
Speaker 1: this psyche vow was the beginning of their A and
Speaker 1: TM trauma and others who say it was biased and flawed.
Speaker 1: When we started looking into the psyche vow we thought
Speaker 1: we were just exploring a little known aspect of A
Speaker 1: andtm's casting process. We thought we would do one episode
Speaker 1: about how it worked and how it was used on
Speaker 1: the show. But when we scratched beneath the surface, we
Speaker 1: figured out there was a lot more to this story.
Speaker 1: Contestants say the personal trauma they shared in their psyche
Speaker 1: vowels was later used to produce the show, and we
Speaker 1: found contestants who may have slipped through the cracks, people
Speaker 1: whose casting rais this serious questions, and some of those
Speaker 1: contestants later met tragic ends. To understand the darker side
Speaker 1: of ANTM psychological evaluation, you first have to understand what
Speaker 1: it is, how it works, and the ways it fell short.
Speaker 1: So on part one of this two part episode, that's
Speaker 1: what we're going to break down. Being on reality TV
Speaker 1: can be stressful. The days are long, and you have
Speaker 1: a camera in your face from the moment you wake
Speaker 1: up at six am to the moment you go to
Speaker 1: sleep at one am. You're completely isolated from your friend's
Speaker 1: family and often the outside world. You're put in bizarre
Speaker 1: situations you probably wouldn't otherwise encounter in your real life.
Speaker 1: It's relentless, and in the back of your mind you
Speaker 1: know any little thing you do will be watched and
Speaker 1: judged by millions of people. It's enough to fuck with
Speaker 1: anybody's mental health. That's why psyche vows are a pretty
Speaker 1: standard practice in reality TV casting. From what I understand,
Speaker 1: a m psyche vial involved a written test portion and
Speaker 1: an actual conversation with the psychologist. Here's Cycle twenty four
Speaker 1: contestant Gina Turner.
Speaker 7: I'm from Minnesota, so I do remember that our psyche
Speaker 7: evaluations were conducted and put together by the University of Minnesota.
Speaker 1: Gina's referring to the Minnesota Multi Phasic Personality Inventory, or
Speaker 1: the MMPI. It's one of the most widely used psychological
Speaker 1: tests in the world. Based on what I've heard, the
Speaker 1: version the models took was probably the MMPI two. It's
Speaker 1: a huge test containing over five hundred true false questions
Speaker 1: where the statements are designed to feel random, even repetitive
Speaker 1: at times, so the person taking it can't easily predict
Speaker 1: what the test is measuring. Here are a few real
Speaker 1: questions from the test, you select true or false. Number one,
Speaker 1: I like mechanics magazines. Number twenty one At times, I
Speaker 1: have very much wanted to leave home. Number one I
Speaker 1: believe I am being followed. Number five forty, I have
Speaker 1: gotten angry and broken furniture or dishes when I was drinking.
Speaker 1: And my personal favorite, number one ninety one, I would
Speaker 1: like to be a journalist. The test has a lot
Speaker 1: of uses. It can screen for things like depression, personality disorders,
Speaker 1: or emotional distress. We don't know what A ANDTM psychologists
Speaker 1: were really screening for, who they were trying to keep
Speaker 1: out and who they were trying to find, but we
Speaker 1: do know that the MMPI is usually just a starting place.
Speaker 1: The answers alone don't tell you much about a person.
Speaker 1: What really matters is the context. That's why I follow
Speaker 1: up with the mental health professional is critical. In the
Speaker 1: follow up, a person can explain the answers and how
Speaker 1: they relate to their own behaviors. The follow up discussion
Speaker 1: shapes how the test is interpreted. But the MMPI seems
Speaker 1: to be just one of the tests A and TM used.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the models were also given scenario based
Speaker 1: tests with multiple choice answers. You met Lisa Demado last episode.
Speaker 1: She was first on Cycle five and was later given
Speaker 1: that controversial win on cycle seventeen. Here's what she said
Speaker 1: about a ANDTM scenario based test.
Speaker 8: Some of the questions involve scenarios like this, if a
Speaker 8: group of people are bowling one person, what do you do?
Speaker 8: It's multiple choice, but it'd be like, I stand up
Speaker 8: for that person, it's none of my business, you know,
Speaker 8: or this or that. It shows the way that you
Speaker 8: would actually react to any given type of situation.
Speaker 1: The psyche valve seemed to be a big part of
Speaker 1: the casting process. The model spent hours taking tests and
Speaker 1: having conversations with psychologists, and they were told it was
Speaker 1: for their safety.
Speaker 8: When you first go on America's Next Top Model or
Speaker 8: you're getting cast for it, they preface you going to
Speaker 8: see a psychologist to make sure that you are prepared
Speaker 8: mentally that you aren't going to be a danger to
Speaker 8: yourself or to anybody else on the show, because you're
Speaker 8: gonna be put under insane stress because you're basically taken
Speaker 8: out of your life that you're used to and you're
Speaker 8: kind of, you know, stuck in this whole Truman show.
Speaker 8: Experience where you're cut off from anything you know and love,
Speaker 8: and then also because you're gonna then be put on television,
Speaker 8: it's to evaluate to make sure that this is safe
Speaker 8: for everyone in yourself.
Speaker 1: Here's Britney Brower from Cycle four.
Speaker 9: I just remember the psych evaluation, or my understanding of it,
Speaker 9: was basically to make sure we were like mentally able
Speaker 9: to go with like extreme like I don't want to
Speaker 9: say mind games, but we're gonna be put through a lot.
Speaker 9: Can you handle it? And that's kind of how we
Speaker 9: are told, like we need to know that you're not
Speaker 9: going to break down get suicidal. You've got to make
Speaker 9: sure you're not suicidal. And it would just keep asking
Speaker 9: the same questions in different ways over and over and
Speaker 9: over again. I'm like, oh my gosh, no, I'm not
Speaker 9: going to kill myself. Oh my god, No, I'm not
Speaker 9: going to harm anybody else.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Hannahcat Jones was on a later season
Speaker 1: Psycle sixteen. She remembers being told about past contestants who
Speaker 1: weren't cut out for the rigors of reality TV.
Speaker 10: I was under the impression that the psych evaluation was
Speaker 10: to make sure that we were mentally stable for the show.
Speaker 10: They were like, you are going to experience a lot
Speaker 10: of pressure, and girls in the past have not been
Speaker 10: able to handle that, so we have to make sure
Speaker 10: that you're mentally strong enough to go through with what
Speaker 10: production will ask of you.
Speaker 1: The contestants were told the psyche vow was about their safety.
Speaker 1: A ANDTM wanted to make sure potential contestants wouldn't harm
Speaker 1: themselves or others while on an A and TM set.
Speaker 1: But as we explore Top model psyche vow process, I
Speaker 1: want you to ask yourself, what does safety really mean?
Speaker 1: And who's safety were they really worried about? Those are
Speaker 1: the questions my production team thought about a lot. It's
Speaker 1: clear A ANDTM was worried about the contestants' physical safety
Speaker 1: and maybe their own. I'm sure they didn't want anyone
Speaker 1: to haul off in smack Tyra, and I'm sure they
Speaker 1: didn't want to get hit with a wrongful death lawsuit.
Speaker 1: But I do wonder if they were really concerned about
Speaker 1: the model's mental and emotional well being. I wanted to
Speaker 1: know more about how A andtm' psyche vowel process worked,
Speaker 1: so I reached out to one of A andtm's longtime psychologists,
Speaker 1: doctor Suzanne Zachary. She told me A and TM was
Speaker 1: an interesting show to work on, but because of her contract,
Speaker 1: she couldn't do an interview for this podcast. So I
Speaker 1: reached out to someone else who knows all about psyche
Speaker 1: vows in reality TV. He's as og as you can get.
Speaker 1: Twenty five years ago, psychologists doctor Steven Stein developed one
Speaker 1: of the first tests that measured a mon intelligence. Around
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, he got a call from a guy
Speaker 1: who knew about this test. Who knew a guy who
Speaker 1: was developing a new TV show and he.
Speaker 5: Was looking for a psychologist because he was going to
Speaker 5: do some TV show and he asked me if this
Speaker 5: emotional intelligence might be helpful. I didn't know really, but
Speaker 5: I said, well, we can find out what's the show about.
Speaker 5: And he said, well, they're going to put these people
Speaker 5: on an island and then vote out one each week,
Speaker 5: and that would be the nature of the show. And
Speaker 5: I said, wow, who's going to watch that.
Speaker 1: That show, of course, turned out to be Survivor and
Speaker 1: they used doctor Stein's adapted emotional intelligence tests to cast
Speaker 1: the first season. Since then, doctor Stein has worked on
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of reality shows, including franchises of Big Brother,
Speaker 1: The Amazing Race, and The Bachelor. Doctor Stein confirmed that
Speaker 1: when he's working on a show, his first priority is
Speaker 1: to make sure the contestant is a safe choice.
Speaker 5: We want to make sure that they have no significant
Speaker 5: psychotic episodes by poor or they're not have some substance abuse,
Speaker 5: or they're not very aggressive and have problems with anger.
Speaker 5: So there are certain things that we rule out borderline personality.
Speaker 5: We want to make sure that it's going to be
Speaker 5: a safe environment, both for them and the other cast members.
Speaker 1: I asked doctor Stein about the MMPI two, the psychological
Speaker 1: test the models were given, and about how it's used
Speaker 1: in reality TV casting. Doctor Stein uses the same test
Speaker 1: when he's conducting psyche valves.
Speaker 5: It's the most widely used mental health test in psychology.
Speaker 5: It's used almost everywhere hospitals and clinics and all that
Speaker 5: kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But doctor Stein doesn't only use the MMPI for safety.
Speaker 1: He also has a say in casting, so he looks
Speaker 1: for certain personality types and emotional traits that could make
Speaker 1: great TV.
Speaker 5: Some of the questions we asked look at things like
Speaker 5: your ability to identify your own emotions, how you're feeling.
Speaker 5: Some people have no idea how they're feeling. Some people
Speaker 5: are really tuned into their own feelings. We look at
Speaker 5: how do you express yourself?
Speaker 1: Think about the talking hit confessionals we see on a
Speaker 1: lot of reality TV shows. Cast members need to be
Speaker 1: able to talk about their feelings. Doctor Stein's also interested
Speaker 1: in how well a person plays with others, your ability.
Speaker 5: To make good relationships with others, your interpersonal skills, your
Speaker 5: ability to make good decisions. Do you get over emotional
Speaker 5: and make bad decisions or are you cool, calm and collect.
Speaker 5: And finally, your ability to manage stress, which is a
Speaker 5: big thing in reality shows. You got to sometimes go
Speaker 5: through long periods of time stressful situations, so we want
Speaker 5: to see how well you are at managing the stress
Speaker 5: in your life.
Speaker 1: But there is one trait, and he says almost all
Speaker 1: reality stars have across the board.
Speaker 5: If you're going to be on a reality show, chances
Speaker 5: are about ninety percent you're going to score high on
Speaker 5: a narcissism scale. Narcissists want to be on TV. Also,
Speaker 5: the narcissists tend to perform right. They want the attention,
Speaker 5: so when they're on a show, they take up all
Speaker 5: the light and you know, production likes that. They like
Speaker 5: people who are in the limelight and do funny things
Speaker 5: and so on.
Speaker 1: Doctor Stein also told me that what he looks for
Speaker 1: isn't universal. What works for one reality show might not
Speaker 1: work for another.
Speaker 5: So some shows, you know, we like to call them
Speaker 5: a social experiment. Think of The Big Brother and shows
Speaker 5: like that, where you put people in a house or
Speaker 5: in a situation, and there what's important is your ability
Speaker 5: to kind of use your interpersonal skills and maybe even
Speaker 5: be a bit manipulative of your ability to manipulate other people.
Speaker 5: Other shows, maybe cooking shows, you may be looking for
Speaker 5: a different set of skills. You may be looking for
Speaker 5: how they deal under stress because they have a very
Speaker 5: brief time to cook or bake or whatever they're about
Speaker 5: to do in the competition.
Speaker 1: In the case of A and TM, it's more like
Speaker 1: how well can you pose with a tiger. There are
Speaker 1: a lot of ways tests like this can be useful,
Speaker 1: but it's not a perfect system. It's flawed because well,
Speaker 1: it's written and administered by people, and people are biased.
Speaker 11: When you come from a different culture, people who don't
Speaker 11: come from that culture may take how you say things
Speaker 11: is being angry or aggressive.
Speaker 1: We'll get into that. After the break, we explained how
Speaker 1: psyche vowels and reality TV work. They're designed to weed
Speaker 1: out people who might be dangerous to themselves and others.
Speaker 1: And one indication that a person could be dangerous or
Speaker 1: violent is anger. You met Angelie preston last episode. She
Speaker 1: was the one who got her win on All Stars revoked.
Speaker 1: On her first appearance on ANTM, she was sent home.
Speaker 1: During the Cycle twelve audition process. She got into it
Speaker 1: with another semi finalist named Sandra. Here's tape of their
Speaker 1: argument problem because.
Speaker 11: Soandra looked at me, she now you want to row
Speaker 11: your eyes, like you know, like.
Speaker 3: Don't get me started long.
Speaker 2: Now you don't have any class, I have no time.
Speaker 1: The two models called each other names, and Angelie gave
Speaker 1: her the good old talk to the hand. But by
Speaker 1: today's standards, it's all pretty tame. It certainly doesn't make
Speaker 1: Angelie seem volatile or mentally unstable, but it still got
Speaker 1: her cut.
Speaker 11: The casting director was like, this is not the end.
Speaker 11: We just want you to take anger management classes because
Speaker 11: we just want you to get you know, your anger
Speaker 11: and check. And I don't think I was necessarily angry.
Speaker 11: I think what it was is the way I expressed myself.
Speaker 11: When you come from a different culture, then you're interacting
Speaker 11: with people who don't come from that culture, they may
Speaker 11: take how you say things is being angry or aggressive,
Speaker 11: and I guess there were concerns that I was possibly
Speaker 11: going to hit someone in the house.
Speaker 1: Angeline says there was even an opportunity to get into
Speaker 1: a physical altercation with her op when her rival's name
Speaker 1: got called to join the cast. That girl intentionally shoulder
Speaker 1: checked Angelie.
Speaker 11: She bumped me going over to Tyra, and like everybody
Speaker 11: thought I was gonna hit her and I didn't.
Speaker 1: So I think it was like.
Speaker 11: The psychiatrist was telling them based on the little test
Speaker 11: that we take, oh she's violin or blah blah blah,
Speaker 11: but you're not seeing that when this girl bumped me,
Speaker 11: because I could have went after her, but I didn't
Speaker 11: because you know, I'll be talking, I'll be I'll be raw, raw,
Speaker 11: but I'm really a softie, like I'm not gonna with
Speaker 11: hit nobody.
Speaker 1: Angelie took A and TM's advice and went to anger
Speaker 1: management classes. She had to pay for it herself. When
Speaker 1: she came back for cycle fourteen, she was cast on
Speaker 1: the show but Angelie, this wasn't the only contestant who
Speaker 1: was told to go to Anger Management before making it
Speaker 1: into the A and TM House. Tiffany, we were rooting
Speaker 1: for you. Richardson originally auditioned for Cycle three. She made
Speaker 1: it to the semi finals and on the first episode
Speaker 1: got into a good old fashioned bar fight when some
Speaker 1: random woman poured a drink on her during a dance battle.
Speaker 12: Bitch for beer on my Wii.
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking, don't fight, do it?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 12: Everything was I had the evil twin and the good one,
Speaker 12: so as we all know the evil one one.
Speaker 1: As soon as I turn around, I hear classes breaking all. No,
Speaker 1: she did not unbelievable just my opinion, but I always
Speaker 1: thought that fight looked stage like the producers had an
Speaker 1: idea of how Tiffany might react and set her up
Speaker 1: to have some drama on the first episode. Tiffany was
Speaker 1: sent home during the Cycle three semifinals. She talked about
Speaker 1: this with Oliver to twenty twenty two. He's a content
Speaker 1: creator and top model super fan. During the pandemic, he
Speaker 1: started interviewing dozens of antim models on his personal channels,
Speaker 1: and Oliver is a consulting producer on this podcast. Here's
Speaker 1: what Tiffany told him. I didn't pass the mental test
Speaker 1: the first time.
Speaker 12: The questions that was asking was so weird, like if
Speaker 12: the police pull you over and you got such such
Speaker 12: with it, is you gonna tell the truth or is
Speaker 12: you gonna stag it? And so they put all these
Speaker 12: questions and then if you don't answer them correctly, they
Speaker 12: make you think you crazy. So I felt like I
Speaker 12: shouldn't even told the truth because I thought by telling
Speaker 12: the truth they would.
Speaker 1: Appreciate me more. But I didn't get picked.
Speaker 12: Before I left, producers whispered to me and they were
Speaker 12: saying things looked by the anger management and different stuff
Speaker 12: like that. So I already kind of had it in
Speaker 12: my brain that I was going back to the forth
Speaker 12: and they say, you go get your anger management. Well,
Speaker 12: welcome to full cycle.
Speaker 1: Let me say this. We don't know if any other
Speaker 1: contestants were sent to anger management based on the psyche bows.
Speaker 1: These are just women who've spoken publicly about their experience.
Speaker 1: We also don't know about the models who were flagged
Speaker 1: and didn't get a second chance. It's clear Tyra and
Speaker 1: the producers wanted Tiffany and Angelie on the show, and
Speaker 1: rightfully so. They gave us some of A and TM's
Speaker 1: most memorable moments. But before they got there, A and
Speaker 1: TM told them to get anger management. Now here's the
Speaker 1: thing about anger. It's subjective. Everyone gets angry, but not
Speaker 1: everyone's anger is deemed violent or dangerous. The elephant in
Speaker 1: the room here is that Angelie and Tiffany are both
Speaker 1: black and they were the ones who were told to
Speaker 1: get anger management before they got cast on the show,
Speaker 1: which is ironic for a show that gave a lot
Speaker 1: of airtime to contestants angry outbursts. Remember Alease from cycle one,
Speaker 1: whose rant you heard on episode two she called Giselle
Speaker 1: a worthless cunt whose parents should be ashamed of her.
Speaker 1: And Jennifer Frost from cycle three, who pushed another contestant
Speaker 1: on camera. I don't know him the other way.
Speaker 3: Don't ever touch me again, or else you will get
Speaker 3: knocked out.
Speaker 1: Oh I'd like to see it god. And what about
Speaker 1: Lauren Utter from cycle ten, who stood on a chair
Speaker 1: and screamed at another contestant during an argument. On a
Speaker 1: later episode, she told another contestant she hopes they choke
Speaker 1: on their coffee. Here's your call, coffee a big lady.
Speaker 3: You are not even what choke.
Speaker 1: On it or the conflict between Romeo and Adam on
Speaker 1: cycle twenty one, I don't understand that.
Speaker 13: Guys, there's a zero percent chance I punched you right now,
Speaker 13: So I don't know if you're if it's.
Speaker 1: Like punch me, it's so punched me, so punched me,
Speaker 1: so punch me, so punch so punch me. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna punch you a punch me Romeo, head budded Adam,
Speaker 1: Romeo's crazy.
Speaker 12: He's a little cannon you head buddy to somebody, that
Speaker 12: sounds pretty angry to me.
Speaker 1: And there are other examples. But as far as we know,
Speaker 1: whatever those contestants told psychologists wasn't enough to get them
Speaker 1: flagged as too angry to be on the show, and
Speaker 1: that raises concerns about the psychologists who are evaluating the candidates.
Speaker 1: There's research that shows that at least two thirds of
Speaker 1: health care providers, including mental health professionals, demonstrate implicit bias
Speaker 1: against marginalized groups. Not only that, the MMPI two the
Speaker 1: tests the models were given, has been widely criticized for
Speaker 1: being biased. When it was originally developed in the forties,
Speaker 1: The control group they based the test on was made
Speaker 1: up of mostly young, white, married people from Minnesota. Even
Speaker 1: after revisions, researchers have found that black test takers often
Speaker 1: score higher on certain scales like paranoia, not necessarily because
Speaker 1: of mental illness, but because of the effect of lived
Speaker 1: realities like racism and discrimination. We don't know for sure
Speaker 1: if bias played a role in Tiffany and Angelie being
Speaker 1: sent to anger Management. Whatever the reason, the A and
Speaker 1: TM psychologists thought Tiffany and Angelie didn't have the temperament
Speaker 1: for the competition, but they weren't told to seek therapy
Speaker 1: to talk about the underlying issues that could be making
Speaker 1: them angry. A and TM advised them to go to
Speaker 1: anger management, which is a glorified band aid for deeper problems,
Speaker 1: and that band aid seemed to work well enough for
Speaker 1: A and TM. The next time Angelie pressed an audition,
Speaker 1: she knew exactly what the psychologist wanted to hear.
Speaker 11: I was lying on the psychic vow like I can't
Speaker 11: let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
Speaker 1: After the break, we get into the other blind spot
Speaker 1: of the psyche vow. After talking to Angelie, preston myself,
Speaker 1: I don't think she was violent I don't even think
Speaker 1: she's angry. I think she was confrontational. After Angelie went
Speaker 1: to Anger Management, she auditioned for A and TM again,
Speaker 1: and this time she knew what to say.
Speaker 11: One of the things the psychiatrist pointed out after I
Speaker 11: was eliminated in the first episode was my psych results.
Speaker 11: I feel like I was too honest on Psychle twelve.
Speaker 11: I feel like I was too honest with the questions.
Speaker 11: I was like, Okay, now I know when I'll go
Speaker 11: back on again. I got to tighten up. I can't
Speaker 11: be as honest because if I'm honest, then that could
Speaker 11: possibly hurt my opportunity again.
Speaker 1: So Angelie did what she needed to do to get cast.
Speaker 11: I was lying on the psychic valve, like I can't
Speaker 11: let these motherfuckers they come crazy.
Speaker 3: And you know what's funny now that I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: About it, because you meet with the psychiatrist.
Speaker 11: So I remember her saying, your answers from the first
Speaker 11: time you auditioned to now are so different, and in
Speaker 11: my mom I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, please, Like I knew what to say on this one.
Speaker 1: This time, Angelie gave the answers she thought would get
Speaker 1: her on the show, but it wasn't necessarily the truth.
Speaker 1: Here's what Psychle twenty four is. Gina Turner told me
Speaker 1: about her psyche bow.
Speaker 14: I'm gonna be completely fucking honest with you.
Speaker 3: I lied on my fucking test.
Speaker 14: It would be like, if Johnny was running after you
Speaker 14: with a knife, what would you do? A Stand there
Speaker 14: and let him stab you, B run the opposite direction.
Speaker 14: Three grab a weapon and defend yourself, or four commit
Speaker 14: suicide or like something stupid. Right, my answer would be, see,
Speaker 14: I'm gonna grab a weapon and defend myself. Johnny gotta go.
Speaker 7: But I knew that that's probably not the way I
Speaker 7: wanted to be represented. I didn't really want them to know,
Speaker 7: like exactly who I was and how I would.
Speaker 3: Respond to every scenario.
Speaker 7: So like some things I was stressful with, but the
Speaker 7: ones that I was like, hmm, this question seems a
Speaker 7: little bit like too specific. I was like, let me
Speaker 7: go ahead and like monitor my answer just a little bit.
Speaker 1: We don't know what A and TM psychologists were really
Speaker 1: looking for, but some contestants say they just gave the
Speaker 1: answers that they thought would get them past the psyche val.
Speaker 1: We don't know if it made a difference or not.
Speaker 1: What we know is that they got cast on the show.
Speaker 1: I want to tell you about one more case of
Speaker 1: a contestant telling A and TM psychologists something that wasn't true.
Speaker 1: Remember Jaslene, who you heard from at the top of
Speaker 1: this episode. She was red flagged by psychologists because she
Speaker 1: was in an abusive relationship. They sent her away, advised
Speaker 1: her to go to therapy, and told her to come
Speaker 1: back once she left that relationship. A and TM loved
Speaker 1: a Cinderella story where a girl with a traumatic background
Speaker 1: is transformed by the magic of Tyra Banks. When Jaslene
Speaker 1: came back to audition again, she told Tyra and A
Speaker 1: and TM producers she left that relationship. It was what
Speaker 1: they wanted to hear, but it wasn't true. This is dazzling.
Speaker 1: A year after her win on Tyra's talk.
Speaker 2: Show, I have a confession. I was with my ex
Speaker 2: boyfriend for four years. He did hit me and you know,
Speaker 2: went through emotional abuse, but I ended up going back
Speaker 2: to him.
Speaker 1: A and TM didn't use her abusive relationship as a storyline,
Speaker 1: but Tyra and her production company found a way to
Speaker 1: get some mileage out of it. In this incredibly cringy
Speaker 1: segment of the Tyra Show.
Speaker 15: So after that, we're, you know, off camera, we're talking
Speaker 15: and I'm like, I'm so proud of you. You got out
Speaker 15: of that bad relationship, and you're like, yeah, Mama, Tyra,
Speaker 15: I got out. So how did you feel being not
Speaker 15: truthful with me and knowing that she were still with him?
Speaker 2: It hurted me a lot, actually, like it was a
Speaker 2: deep secret.
Speaker 3: You know, it's gonna be very hard.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I do want to their baby crime.
Speaker 15: No, it's not a baby cry, Jesline, that's not a
Speaker 15: baby cry.
Speaker 3: This is real. It's okay.
Speaker 2: I respect you so much and I've fancience so much
Speaker 2: You've done from you, Cyril, and I am willing to
Speaker 2: stand here and accept my mistake.
Speaker 15: I don't even think it makes you a liar, because
Speaker 15: part of abuse is living in this weird world and
Speaker 15: almost lying to yourself. I think you were still in
Speaker 15: that cycle of hell. So I forgive you, forget.
Speaker 1: I've watched this clip again and again, and it's so
Speaker 1: strange that it's framed as Jazzline apologizing to Tyra. Do
Speaker 1: y'all really think Tyra didn't know before this moment?
Speaker 3: You went yeah, so.
Speaker 2: He did it said yeah, I was destinally one of
Speaker 2: those where I just stood back and I was like, no,
Speaker 2: you know what, like, it's not gonna happen no more.
Speaker 15: So where are you now with him? Are you really
Speaker 15: broken up?
Speaker 1: Or are you Yeah?
Speaker 3: I live in New York.
Speaker 1: I want to be clear, I'm not blaming Jazzleene here.
Speaker 1: Abuse is a cycle, and it usually takes survivors multiple
Speaker 1: tries to leave for good if they are Jaslene eventually
Speaker 1: ended the relationship after her win, and she does credit
Speaker 1: the show with helping her leave, But the point is
Speaker 1: she told the psychologists what they wanted to hear and
Speaker 1: it worked. At the beginning of this episode, we heard
Speaker 1: from contestants who were told the psyche vowl was for
Speaker 1: their own safety, but how could a process with these
Speaker 1: glaring shortcomings really keep them safe. The portion of the
Speaker 1: psyche vow that was done in the name of safety
Speaker 1: seemed in part to be about covering Antm's own ass.
Speaker 1: They didn't want someone who would take their own life
Speaker 1: on the show or six months after. They didn't want
Speaker 1: someone who would walk off set when production got too intense.
Speaker 1: They didn't want someone who might attack a union protected
Speaker 1: crew member. Basically, they didn't want someone who would be
Speaker 1: a liability to the show. But here's where the psyche
Speaker 1: vow gets really interesting. Because they did want people with
Speaker 1: traumatic backgrounds. It gave them something to use to create storylines.
Speaker 1: Courtney Davies was on Cycle thirteen. She was also in
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship before auditioning for A and TM. She
Speaker 1: shared this with the show psychologist, and she told Oliver
Speaker 1: Twigs that on her first day on set, that's all
Speaker 1: the producers wanted to talk to her about.
Speaker 13: Like the very first time I walked out, they were like,
Speaker 13: tell us about your abusive relationship. I just wanted to
Speaker 13: be me and not have that be a part of
Speaker 13: my story, Like they wanted me to be the victim
Speaker 13: and like the damaged girl.
Speaker 1: Courtney wouldn't cooperate. She refused to talk about it. But
Speaker 1: there were contestants who were blindsided with their trauma on camera,
Speaker 1: like Marvita Washington. Marvita originally auditioned for Cycle nine. In
Speaker 1: her psyche vow, she shared she was a survivor of
Speaker 1: childhood sexual abuse, and the producers clearly shared that with
Speaker 1: Tyra so she could bring it up on camera. Here's
Speaker 1: Marvita Cycle nine audition. I don't even know why I'm crying.
Speaker 1: I don't even cry.
Speaker 15: I hear that you've been through a lot, a lot,
Speaker 15: a lot of stuff in your life. Tell me about
Speaker 15: growing up and all the things that she went through
Speaker 15: and all the tragedy I went.
Speaker 1: Through a lot as a kid.
Speaker 12: I've been just passed off to family members a lot,
Speaker 12: so I was always having to.
Speaker 1: Adapt to new people, new places.
Speaker 3: A lot of people have done a lot of bad
Speaker 3: things to me.
Speaker 15: Why don't you talk about them?
Speaker 3: I was molested, rape, So much has happened to you.
Speaker 15: What makes you strong enough to still stand here right
Speaker 15: now in front of us?
Speaker 1: After Tyra asked her these invasive questions, Marveita wasn't selected
Speaker 1: for cycle nine. She was told to go to therapy,
Speaker 1: which she did. When she came back to audition for
Speaker 1: cycle ten, she made it onto the show, where her
Speaker 1: childhood abuse was a part of her storyline. Marveita isn't
Speaker 1: the only contestant who said the deep personal trauma they
Speaker 1: shared in their psyche vow was later used by producers
Speaker 1: to manipulate them for the cameras. On the next episode,
Speaker 1: we'll get into the hidden use of the psychological evaluation.
Speaker 1: Contestants were told the psyche vow was for their safety
Speaker 1: and screening purposes, but many say it was used for
Speaker 1: a lot more than that.
Speaker 7: But I just remember, for hours and hours on Andy
Speaker 7: just kept focusing on me being suicidal, and it's like,
Speaker 7: I just want to talk about something happy.
Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care.
Speaker 1: And it was just really fucked up. I was exhausted.
Speaker 7: I was physically so exhausted, and I remember putting my
Speaker 7: handsma it and I was like, I don't want to
Speaker 7: talk about it anymore.
Speaker 10: And I'm crying.
Speaker 7: But that is literally the clip that they used for
Speaker 7: how I emotionally responded for losing the competition.
Speaker 1: Then we'll talk about the contestants who's casting raises serious
Speaker 1: questions about the A and TM psyche val contestants whose
Speaker 1: lives took a dark turn once the show ended. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to
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Speaker 1: that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners.
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in
Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by
Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben
Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Denning. Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melcriy,
Speaker 1: and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver TwixT and Kate Taylor.
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Audio
Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Andrew Callaway and Matt del Vechio.
Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was
Speaker 1: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by mid Music
Speaker 1: Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially
Speaker 1: the models for sharing their stories. And for more podcasts
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