1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I gotta be honest 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: with you. Sometimes I suggest podcast topics specifically because they 5 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: apply to my life and it gives me an excuse 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: to get some greater insight into why I do certain things. 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the douching episode. I'm talking about apologizing. 8 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: I have a verbal tic, and it is saying I'm sorry, 9 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: but it's good to apologize, right, Not when I haven't 10 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: actually done anything wrong. What are you apologizing for? I'm 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: apologizing for things that happened to other people. I'm apologizing 12 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: for just saying something that I might be interrupting. Perhaps 13 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm apologizing for really anything, just doing the preface of 14 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but oh, I'm sorry. If if I feel 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: like I have done anything at all that's not entirely perfect, 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: I might just say I'm sorry. And it's something that 17 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: speaking of stuff Mom Never Told You, it is something 18 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: that my mom, I know, does a lot, because ironically 19 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: it's a pet peeve of mine when she'll toss out 20 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry if I'm talking to her about something 21 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: that I'm frustrated with, and she responds, oh, I'm sorry, 22 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: and I say it hadn't happen to you, and then 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: she said, well, I'm sorry for saying that, and then 24 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: we get into this tumble weed of apologies. So we 25 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: got to sort me out. Yeah, no, I I when 26 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: you suggested this, I was thinking about it, and and I'm thinking, like, 27 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: you know, you just mentioned and interrupting or just like 28 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: even approaching someone in conversation and apologizing. And I don't 29 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: know that I do that so much, but I guess, 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: you know, honestly, like this has made me want to 31 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: listen to myself more closely, because usually when we do 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: topics like this, and I'm like, I never do that, 33 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: and then I, you know, I go home later that 34 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: day and I'm like, oh man, I've done that seventeen times. 35 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: I've been catching myself doing it so much that whereas 36 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: some people set up a swear jar, I would like 37 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: to set up an apology jar, a pointless apology jar, 38 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: because sometimes you need to apologize, but when it gets 39 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: to the point of being this verbal tick, I it 40 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: irks me because I know I shouldn't be apologizing. I 41 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: wonder if I should take more of the John Wayne 42 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: stands who once said, never apologize, it's a sign of weakness, 43 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: and that's the closest I can get to a John Wayne. 44 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: I sure, I think, um, I think that's not true. 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: I think it's not a sign of weakness when you 46 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: mean it when it's called for. And I don't know 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: that I would even say that your unnecessary apologies are 48 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: a sign of weakness. I I think that you are 49 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: a very polite person and you don't want to come 50 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: off as like being, you know, an interrupter. Well, well, 51 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: let's let's dial things back and take me out from 52 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: under the microscope and do a broad brush of all 53 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: of the many apology gender stereotypes, because you already tossed 54 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: out one, which is that women apologize more. And then 55 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: there's that men don't want to admit that they're wrong. 56 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: We assume that men avoid apologizing because of the whole 57 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,839 Speaker 1: John Wayne thing because they think it's a sign of weakness. 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: And then, you know, speaking about women, just the idea 59 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: that we're we're to contrite and that we're just generally 60 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: more courteous than men are, and that we're making people 61 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: mad when we speak up, yeah, or just kind of 62 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: doing anything sometimes, And many researchers have said that women 63 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: indeed apologize more often. There is in nine study that's 64 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: often cited in apology Literature UM, which was one of 65 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: the seminal papers that came out saying yes, indeed, women 66 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: apologize more, but the methodology is a little iffy because 67 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: essentially they had a team of research assistants keep an 68 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: apology diary, and it turns out that the women research 69 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: assistance documented of the apologies during this given time, but 70 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: most of the research assistance were women to begin with, 71 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: so you didn't have exactly an equal pool, right. And 72 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: then there's linguist Deborah Tannin who was also often cited 73 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: in apology research, and she kind of uses more of 74 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: an anecdotal approach, saying that you know, more women do this, 75 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: more women want apologies, and more women offer apologies. Yeah, 76 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: And I do though anecdotally speaking by her theory that 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: women will use apologies in the same way that I'm 78 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: talking about, as almost a verbal reflex, in a way 79 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: that men might not or might not as much. And 80 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: she calls this our ritual way of restoring balance to 81 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: a conversation and I can totally see that in scenarios 82 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: when my mom kindheartedly responds I'm sorry when I say, 83 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: you know something that has happened that isn't happy, right, 84 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: And I mean, I think in that verbal reflex kind 85 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: of way, if you're looking at it that way, again, 86 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it's something you know you're talking about wanting 87 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: to overcome. But it's also another way I think of 88 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: just saying I'm not better than you. I'm not trying 89 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: to make you feel, you know, subordinate or less than 90 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: you know. I'm not trying to trample on you. It's 91 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: just it's the type of verbal tick that you employ well. 92 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: And it could also have something to do more with 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: female to female communication because another linguist named Janet Holmes 94 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: also says that women, yes, do a bulk of the apologizing, 95 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: but we also do a bulk of the apology receiving, 96 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: and that when we apologize, we often do so two 97 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: women more often than to men. And I think that's 98 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: interesting and I think that's a great like you segue 99 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: into what we will be talking about, which is the 100 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: gender more of the gender division and what men expect 101 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: versus what women expect, because you know, if if women 102 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: are both giving more apologies and expecting more apologies, I mean, 103 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: what what is that saying? That's that's saying something? Yeah? 104 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: What does that say about the value of the apology? 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: Because I also feel like if I'm constantly saying I'm 106 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: sorry just for day to day kinds of things, when 107 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: I really truly screw up and need to say I'm sorry, 108 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: has the value of mine I'm sorry been diminished? If 109 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: that makes sense because of my constant pologizing. I would 110 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't think so well, Physiologically speaking, 111 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: me apologizing to a woman might have more of a 112 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: relieving or calming effect, at least according to this study 113 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: from two thousand nine that was published in the Journal 114 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: of Behavioral Medicine. Yeah. The study found that physiologically, women 115 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: respond more to apologies. Their blood pressure and heart rate 116 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: variability levels returned to normal more quickly if they received 117 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: an apology immediately following a verbal attack, but this was 118 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: not true for men, and the reason that men might 119 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: not experience that same physiological reaction to apologies can perhaps 120 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: be gleaned from a two thousand and ten study from 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: the University of Waterloo that changed our conversation about this 122 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: gender divide or whether there really is one in apologies. 123 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: So we had just been talking about sort of anecdotal 124 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: evids that women apologize more, that it's more of a 125 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: verbal tick for us, and that men and women have 126 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: different perceptions of what apologies mean and their significance. But 127 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: then in two thousand ten, this study came out of 128 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: the University of Waterloo, and I got a ton of 129 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: press because the searchers said, in fact, women don't apologize 130 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: more than men. Nope, when you break it down, proportionally, 131 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: women and men apologize the same rate. And so how 132 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: they came to this conclusion is they did two separate studies, 133 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: and the first study looked at gender differences in the 134 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: frequency and the prompting of apologies, and indeed, women did 135 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: report dolling out and receiving more apologies than men. And 136 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: women were also more likely, fun fact, to apologize to 137 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: a romantic partner. Not that I don't do that all 138 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: the time to my boyfriend. Well yeah, in this in 139 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: this first study, women also reported committing more offenses. So 140 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: I wonder if they're more sensitive to what they're not 141 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: more sensitive meaning that men aren't sensitive. But I wonder 142 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: if they're more like, oh my god, I've done something terrible, 143 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: when in fact the other party has not considered it 144 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: to be terrible, Caroline. That's exactly the case. When they 145 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: went in and did a follow up study looking at well, 146 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: why are they apologizing more? Why are they reporting more apologies, 147 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: they found that women were more likely to judge an 148 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: offense as apology worthy, regardless of the victims gender. So, 149 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: when they broke down the numbers and looked at the 150 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: apologies doled out and the types of apologies given, whether 151 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: it was just like a cursory I'm sorry, or an 152 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: I did this and I understand that you feel this 153 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: way and I'm very sorry and I promised to not 154 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: do that again, they found that the gender differences were 155 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: completely erased in terms of apology per offense. It's just 156 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: that women felt like they were doing more things that 157 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: does served apologies. Interesting. Yeah, once once men and women 158 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: see things as offensive, they're both equally likely to apologize. 159 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: So so, you know, I think that says a lot 160 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: about these stereotypes of women, is like the submissive apologize 161 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: er smoothing the waters, you know, and men being like 162 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: these brutes who don't care, right, And it was also 163 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: fascinating to see how they found no gender differences also 164 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: in the manner in which men and women delivered apologies, 165 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: which also debunks the stereotype about men just not wanting 166 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: to admit they're wrong, or maybe if they're forced to, 167 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: might mumble out and I'm sorry. No, if we feel 168 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: like we've done something wrong, we're equally likely to apologize. 169 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: So the question then is why do women have a 170 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: lower threshold for offense? And if that's the case, then 171 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: perhaps that's why in that two thousand nine study that 172 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: we referenced before the break, women have a stronger physiological 173 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: reaction to receiving an apology. Now that's me tying together 174 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: on my own stands rigorous methodology to separate conclusions, but 175 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: I wonder if they aren't related. Though. Yeah, it's funny 176 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: as we're going over this to think about dude roommate 177 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: and me, and how like there are so many times 178 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: when I've been like, we need to talk and he 179 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: won't even realize that, you know, like I will think 180 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: he's mad at me, or I'll be mad at him 181 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: and he won't even realize. And he's told me more 182 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,839 Speaker 1: than once you know, like, I think you're thinking more 183 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: about this than I am, and it's like, oh, well, okay, 184 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: it's it's good too. I'm I'm the one who's more 185 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: likely to be like, can we talk, I want an 186 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: apology or I owe you an apology, And he's more 187 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: likely to be like, I don't even know what you're 188 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: talking about. Well, and and theorists might say that, well, 189 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 1: that might boil down to in conflict situations, men's evolutionary 190 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: tendencies to fight or light and women's evolutionary tendencies to 191 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: tend and befriend. So maybe we are instinctively considering the 192 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: relationship a little bit more. But that study doesn't answer 193 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: the question of what's up with the verbal tick of 194 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm sorry what Debra Tannin called that ritual way of 195 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: restoring balance to a conversation, because that doesn't have so 196 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: much to do with feeling like you've committed an offense 197 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: and need to make up for it. This is just 198 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: about just saying those two words as a way to 199 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: a conversation together in a way. Yeah, I mean, I 200 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: think you know if you tell me like, oh, I 201 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: had a terrible day and I lost my bag and 202 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: I did this, uh blab, people were rude to me, 203 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: I might say I'm sorry, you know, And and that's 204 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: that's me just expressing sympathy and trying to to sympathize 205 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: and empathize with you, to let you know that I'm listening. Yeah. Um. 206 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: And in the book I Was Wrong The Meaning of 207 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: Apologies by Nick Smith, he looked into this gendered aspect 208 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: of apologies and sites Sandra bark Skis phenomenology of gendered 209 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: emotions and and she argues that women actually experience more shame, 210 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: and so perhaps if that is the case, then we 211 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: are more likely to use that apologetical language. Yeah, and 212 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: and and looking at this like reading her definition of shame, 213 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: she says, it's a species of psychic distress occasion by 214 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: a self or a state of the self apprehended as inferior, defective, 215 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: or in some way diminished. Reading that, you know, I'm 216 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: sitting here saying, well, you know, I don't necessarily apologize 217 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: very much, like I just stick to when it's really 218 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: when I've offended someone. No, I mean, I do like 219 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: thinking about the way that like I might approach you 220 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: for a big favor or something along those lines, and 221 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: I will like, literally, I feel like sometimes make myself 222 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: physically smaller and be like, oh, Christen, I'm sorry, could 223 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: you I hate to do this, but you know, things 224 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: like that, prefacing what I need or or want from 225 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: someone else with like, oh, I hate to put you 226 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: out exactly. I can tell when I'm on a tear 227 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: of I'm sorries, that I'm feeling insecure, that it's coming 228 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,239 Speaker 1: out of a place of uncertainty and maybe some anxiety, 229 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: And it's almost like a self soothing measure to do that. 230 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: And it's all about in a way status, which came 231 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: up in the study on apologies in the workplace and 232 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: it came out in June and it was called me. 233 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: It was called do you really Expect Me to apologize? 234 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: The impact of status and gender on the effectiveness of 235 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: an apology in the workplace, And it found that the 236 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: most effective apologies come from people of higher status. So 237 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: if you get an apology from your manager, you know 238 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: it's the real deal. A lot of times that makes 239 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: you feel a lot are rather than one of us 240 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: having to apologize to one of our managers. Apologizing up 241 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: usually does much less, I feel like than getting the 242 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: apology from on high well, it's interesting that you used 243 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: the words status and higher status because the same also 244 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: applies for apologies from men. Yeah. They found that, in 245 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: addition to apologies from managers feeling quite significant and effective, 246 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: those that come from men and that are delivered to 247 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: women are also considered the most effective apologies because the 248 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: researchers think that it's all about expectations. The less we 249 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: expect an apology, the more significant it feels when we 250 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: actually get it right. And because of the gender stereotypes 251 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: around apologies, we don't expect men to be forthcoming with 252 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, so that when they apologize to us, 253 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: we're like, oh my, okay, no problem. Here are some 254 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: muffins I made. I'm sorry if you don't like them, 255 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: it's perfect. Yeah, it's really it's kind of amazing to 256 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: think how an apology can just smooth things over so 257 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: much when it's when it's genuine exactly, but with that 258 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: status issue, that was one reason why. Over at Jezebel, 259 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: Karen pole Wadzi says that women need to stop with 260 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: the apologizing, especially that kind of verbal tick, because she 261 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: argues that it just undercuts our status over and over again. 262 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: She says, I think it's that women are expected to 263 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: be exceptionally grateful for the crumbs tossed our way, and 264 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: so we show our gratitude by cushioning our wants with 265 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: a series of I know this is asking a lot, 266 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: but I hate to ask. But I might sound like 267 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: an idiot for wondering but kinds of things, and all 268 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: of that is tied into, obviously, the constant apologizing. I 269 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: agree with her on the level that UM constantly being 270 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: like Kristen, would I'm sorry, but would you mind? Like? 271 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: I understand that that is very undercutting UM, but I 272 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: think it's the I think for me, my opinion is 273 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: that the opposite is true for when it is a genuine, genuine, 274 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: concise apology. If I come to you and I say, Kristen, 275 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: I'm really sorry I dented your car. Uh, let me 276 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: fix this like that, that is taking control. I'm I'm 277 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: taking responsibility for something and clear kind of clearing the air. 278 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm not as much being like exactly because in that case, 279 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: you are apologizing for something specific that you did that 280 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: was out of line with my car, Caroline. Whereas you know, 281 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: what Karen's talking about is more in terms of that 282 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: verbal cushioning, although there might be some empowerment some social 283 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: science suggests in refusing to apologize. This is interesting. Yeah, 284 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: this was reported on by shankra vedantem Over at NPR 285 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: and he talked about some research done by a trio 286 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: of academics. And I found that willfully not apologizing yields 287 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: a sense of empowerment and integrity. But there's a limit 288 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: to it. If you just never apologize for anything, you're 289 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: kind of a jerk. No, actually, you're just a jerk. 290 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: But in certain times, when you put your foot in 291 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: the ground and say no, actually sorry, I'm not sorry, 292 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: then you we we all it almost elevates our status, 293 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: at least in our minds. Yeah. Absolutely, that that feeling 294 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: of self worth because I mean, you know, using the 295 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: preface self, I mean it's kind of self righteous as well. 296 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: You kind of feel like, well, no, I'm better than 297 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 1: all of you. I'm right, you're wrong. I'm not apologizing. 298 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: But I feel like if maybe I could do a 299 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: better job of weeding out those unnecessary i'm sorries, I 300 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: bet I would derive a sense of empowerment from that 301 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: of simply asking or saying what I mean without having 302 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: to go ahead and ask forgiveness before I even do 303 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: it right exactly, And then I don't know, I feel 304 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: like prefacing something by apologize. Think the person that you're 305 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: asking is like, oh god, what, no, what is she 306 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: going to ask? They're prepared to disagree with you exactly. Yes, exactly, 307 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: because yeah, it's almost like you've gone ahead and devalued 308 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: what you're about to say exactly. But there is another 309 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: facet of receiving the apology, of being on that receiving 310 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: end of the I'm sorry when perhaps it's not coming 311 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: from someone that we don't expect it from. Uh. There 312 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: was a study that came out of the Rotterdam School 313 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: of Management at Erasmus University which found that apologies a 314 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: lot of times more often than not, probably out of 315 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: those workplace settings, leave us wanting. Yeah, you might think 316 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: that if you are wronged, an apology will make you 317 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: feel so much better if she would just apologize, if 318 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: he would just say I'm sorry. But they did these 319 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: studies that had you know, something happened to a person 320 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: and then they received an apology and actual apology, and 321 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: then just imagining that they received the apolo pology and 322 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: the people who imagine the apology were like, oh, I 323 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: would feel so much better, but the people who actually 324 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: received the verbal apology were like, well, like, I guess 325 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 1: it's good they said it. But even though apologies themselves 326 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: can sometimes be underwhelming, one of the co authors, David D. Kramer, 327 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: said that they're still crucial because they quote trigger a 328 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: highly scripted reconciliation process. And that's the thing about apologizing, 329 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: is that saying I'm sorry, I promise I won't do 330 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: that again is only the start of the apology, right. 331 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: It's it's an apology is the first step towards mending 332 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: a broken relationship. It restores a kind of social order. 333 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: And there was one who was the writer was it 334 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: like a I feel like it was kind of an 335 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: etiquette writer who said that the failure to accept an 336 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: apology turns the victim into the transgressor Oh yeah, so 337 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: if I do some thing to you and I apologize 338 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: for it, but you're still really like p oed and 339 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: you don't accept my apology, that makes you into the 340 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: rude person. It's true, I feel like I've experienced the 341 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: situation before, but I'm on both sides, like stalked away 342 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: and been like well, that's their problem. I have probably 343 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: apologized for not accepting an apology before. It's true. Um, 344 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: But it's interesting though that Tom Jacob's writing at Pacific 345 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: Standard says that we are living and other people have 346 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: said this too, and these this apology literature that we 347 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: looked at, that we live in a culture of apologies, 348 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: whether it's just the interpersonal apology or something as massive 349 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: as setting up truth commissions and having government apologies for 350 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: atrocities that have happened in the past. Um, it's our way. 351 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: It's He says that apologizing has evolved into a nuanced ritual, 352 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: so much so that these academic disciplines are developing around well, 353 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: what are we actually doing when we're apologizing? Doesn't really 354 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 1: do anything. It's a script that we follow a lot 355 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: of times, but it changes so much depending on status, gender, 356 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: what we really mean when we say I'm sorry, Yeah, 357 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, especially when you have somebody like Anthony Weiner 358 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: who just keeps taking it out and taking pictures of 359 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: it and then apologizing. I mean, it's like we're like, Okay, 360 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: he messed up again, Let's let's have the press conference 361 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: where he apologizes. It's like, why, why is the apology 362 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: and his press conference more important than the fact that 363 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: he's the total sleeves ball. Well, that though, gets into 364 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: the issue of the non apology, and I would say 365 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: that in the in the apology spectrum, the worst you 366 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: can do is deliver the non apology, because you're going 367 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: through the motions of an apology, but you don't really 368 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: mean it, and usually it's pretty obvious that it's a 369 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: non apology. And I feel like that a lot of 370 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: times the recipient of a non apology is only feel 371 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: feels only more violated. Sure, well, I've I've done it. 372 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: I've made non apologies and I've received non apologies. And 373 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: usually when I'm making a non apology, like using an 374 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: if statement or I'm sorry that you feel this way, 375 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: it's because I I consider the other person's view to 376 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: be inaccurate and correct, whatever, and so I tend to 377 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: not use non apologies unless I do want to make 378 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: it clear that I completely disagree with you over whatever 379 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: the topic is. No, Caroline, you should that you should 380 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: then put your foot down and not apologize at all, 381 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: and you could get that sense of integrity and empowerment. 382 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: I could feel better and then not have to circle 383 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: back around and apologize for the non apology um, although 384 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: I was amused to find that Hebrew University of Jerusalem 385 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: Assistant professor of Communications Zoe Or Camp outlined fourteen different 386 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: types of non apologies in a two thousand eight article, 387 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: and I believe that he found these different brands of 388 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: non apologies by reading public apologies from either CEOs or 389 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: government leaders. Basically people who had had done wrong and 390 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: had to apologize once they had been caught, especially people 391 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: in the financial sector who basically caused the recession, and 392 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: when they were giving statements, they said things to the 393 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: effect of like, I'm sorry at people's losses, I'm sorry 394 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: about people's misfortunes, instead of I'm sorry for wrecking the economy. Yeah, 395 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: taking actual responsibility. And one thing that jumped out at 396 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: me from his research was he said that referring to 397 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: an offensive action as a mistake is a type of 398 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: non apology because by just calling it a mistake, you 399 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: are minimizing your guilty. I didn't mean to Yeah, you 400 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't be mad at me. Yeah, I didn't mean to 401 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: do it. Everybody makes mistakes, yeah, everybody hurts exactly, So 402 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: not to close with an apology, but I realized that 403 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways I have co opted this episode, 404 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: but I couldn't get enough of this research because it 405 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: was so enlightening to dissect why we apologize so much 406 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: and the purposes that it serves, especially in the context 407 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: of making the the apology just to apologize. Yeah, And 408 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: I think the people who do so, whether male or female, 409 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: um do tend to be the people who want to 410 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 1: smooth things over. They don't want to ruffle feathers, or 411 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 1: or they want to reassure you that you know, they 412 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: don't mean any harm by what they're what they're doing, 413 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: and so and I also think that you know, a 414 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 1: lot of those apologies of like oh, I'm sorry you 415 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: had a bad day, or I'm sorry that you know 416 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: it rained on your parade. Yeah, And that's expressing concern 417 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't see anything wrong with that 418 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 1: at all. It's more when it ties into the status 419 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: and power issue that I want to adjust my apologizing behavior. 420 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: But to answer the question of whether men or women 421 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: apologize more, it is clear that women do apologize more, 422 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: But we got to keep in mind that it's because 423 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: we find more things that we do apology worthy, and 424 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: so maybe that's what we should think about in terms of, well, 425 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: why why do we think that we that this is 426 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: an offense worthy of an apology? Sorry? Not sorry ladies? 427 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: That how about not sorry at all? So who can 428 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: relate to me? I know I have apology happy friends 429 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: out there listening. Please right in mom Stuff at Discovery 430 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: dot com. Um, and if you have tried to weed 431 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: out excessive apologies in your life, I want to hear 432 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: all of your stories. You can email to us. You 433 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, or send 434 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: us a Facebook message as well. And we've got a 435 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 1: couple of Facebook messages to share with you when we 436 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break and now back 437 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: to our letters. So I've got a couple of Facebook 438 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: messages here on our episode on women in True Crime, 439 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: and the first one is from Courtney, and she writes, 440 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: I am a closeted true crime fan, although closeted no more, Courtney, 441 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: I remember watching Rescue nine one one as a kid 442 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: and being utterly fascinated. I prefer the victims centered I 443 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: survived types of things over stories with tragic endings by far, 444 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: but I do read and watch those as well. Honestly, 445 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: I've crewed myself out more than once wondering what the 446 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: age is wrong with me that I am interested in 447 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: this stuff. Through my soul searching, I've discovered a definite 448 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: desire to hear how people, not just women, ended up 449 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: in the circumstances they found themselves in, how they got 450 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: out of those situations, and what happened to the perpetrator. 451 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: I suppose I feel more empowered thinking through potentially threatening circumstances, 452 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: and my hope is that if the unthinkable should ever happen, 453 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: I would be calmer and better equipped to deal with it. 454 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: Who knows if it would when it came right down 455 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: to it, but I think it actually helps me sleep 456 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: better at night, knowing, thinking, hoping I've as us through 457 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: the worst case scenario. Anyway, great show again. I was 458 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: a little nervous that it would be what is wrong 459 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: with you? Psychos type of episode, but as usual, I 460 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: was pleasantly surprised to hear your I get it even 461 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: if I don't approach. Thanks ladies, and thank you Courtney. Okay, 462 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: I have a message here from Katrina. She says, I'm 463 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: a woman and I started getting interested in true crime 464 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: my senior year in high school because the mentor I 465 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: was working with for my senior project had to search 466 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: and rescue dogs, one of which was a cadaver dog, 467 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: a dog trains specifically to locate dead bodies. I kept 468 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: reading more and more about that, which led me to anthropology, 469 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: specifically forensic anthropology and Dr Bill Bass. It's now kind 470 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: of spiraled out of control winky phase. I love trying 471 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: to solve the mystery. If I don't know the case 472 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: and or gather some clues as to why this person 473 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: committed this crime. If you were to look at my bookshelf, 474 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: if you would think I was nuts. Anyway, the real 475 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: reason I wanted to write is that I hate that 476 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: women have to call something a guilty pleasure. Why do 477 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: we as women have to feel guilty about liking something. 478 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: I also wanted to touch on crime in media and 479 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: non white women. Many crime TV shows actually have a 480 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: diverse background of women and men who are victims. Yes, 481 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: they're probably more white women than not, but shows like 482 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: Criminal Minds and c S I have had many episodes 483 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: and cases that dealt with non white women. So I 484 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: wonder if it is just printed material it is this way. 485 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: You mentioned Law and Order spu and many of the 486 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: crimes on that show are taken from real cases. And 487 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: Katrina goes on to say that she really doesn't like 488 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: romance novels and that part of the reason I read 489 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: mystery slash true Crime slash Crime is that because I 490 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: like solving mysteries, but also many times the woman in 491 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: the books doesn't mind kicking butt every once in a while. 492 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: So thanks for the message, Katrina, and thanks to everybody 493 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: who's written in. You can message us on Facebook like 494 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: Courtney and Katrina did. You can also follow us on 495 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. 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