Speaker 1: We recorded with Dr Maggie Zingingman in early January, and
Speaker 1: from that short amount of time from when we recorded
Speaker 1: to the release date of her episode, some developments have occurred.
Speaker 1: Maggie came across some new key information that I believe
Speaker 1: needs to not only be discussed here, I think it
Speaker 1: needs to be added to our existing knowledge of this
Speaker 1: case for Brittany. It might go to time of death,
Speaker 1: It might add a potential witness, It definitely adds a
Speaker 1: place of interest. This additional information has got a specific location,
Speaker 1: a specific day, and a specific time frame. Some people
Speaker 1: may say, well, she shouldn't be talking about it, she
Speaker 1: should wait. It might hurt the case. I don't know
Speaker 1: how it would hurt the case to bring this out.
Speaker 1: Because it is bringing it out, we're gonna be able
Speaker 1: to find out if somebody did a favor or ran
Speaker 1: an errand for Brittany. This particular piece of evidence is
Speaker 1: critical to put in the public to plead for somebody
Speaker 1: to come forward. One thing that I know I inherited
Speaker 1: from my mama is I love tom capsules, messages and
Speaker 1: bottles and these letters that are sometimes lost for long
Speaker 1: periods of time and then delivered. I remember there was
Speaker 1: a letter that was written by a young soldier in
Speaker 1: like nineteen forty five that was delivered to his with
Speaker 1: a and it had been lost all that time. I
Speaker 1: think it was a letter that he wrote to his mom,
Speaker 1: and somehow the postal service came up with it. And
Speaker 1: of course his mama was long gone. He was also deceased,
Speaker 1: so his wife's who they delivered it to. And I
Speaker 1: just love stories like that. Cold cases are a lot
Speaker 1: like a time capsule. Everything stops when a crime happens.
Speaker 1: The victim doesn't get any older, they don't go back
Speaker 1: to work, they don't go back to school, they don't
Speaker 1: contact family ever again. That foul is encased and preserved
Speaker 1: and locked away, and sometimes it didn't open for years
Speaker 1: or decades. And just like the long lost love letter
Speaker 1: that gets delivered fifty years later, we have a letter
Speaker 1: that was either mailed by Brittany or somebody mailed it
Speaker 1: on her behalf. We've just learned about it, but we
Speaker 1: know that changes the timeline. It adds a place, that
Speaker 1: specific post office, It adds a person again, either Brittany
Speaker 1: herself or somebody for her. Maggie has held this in
Speaker 1: her hand like a time capsule. She's read it. She
Speaker 1: stared at Brittney's handwriting. The memories have come flooding back
Speaker 1: to her and the questions where did she get this envelope?
Speaker 1: When did she write it? Where was she when she
Speaker 1: wrote it, who mailed it? When did they mail it?
Speaker 1: But it's put into play now tonight we have news
Speaker 1: that has just kind of blown my mind. I'm bringing
Speaker 1: back Dr Maggie Zengman to talk about some evidence that
Speaker 1: was just discovered that has busted this timeline wide open
Speaker 1: and given us, in my opinion, not just a piece
Speaker 1: of evidence, but a critical time stamp in real time
Speaker 1: of when Brittany may have been alive. Maggie, welcome back
Speaker 1: to his own seven. What in the world has been discovered?
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to start, but leave it
Speaker 1: to say, about four days ago, my ex husband, who
Speaker 1: I really have not talked much since Britty's murder, called
Speaker 1: me and he said, I need to send your picture
Speaker 1: of something, and he sent a picture of an envelope
Speaker 1: and he said, look at the time stamp. What he
Speaker 1: told me was that he had received, like he did
Speaker 1: every year, a letter from my daughter asking him to
Speaker 1: forward a birthday card for her grandfather, his father, and
Speaker 1: every year she would do that no matter where she was, Florida, Tulsa.
Speaker 1: And he said, so she sent it to me and
Speaker 1: I got it a week after she died. That's sort
Speaker 1: of earth shattering enough. But he said, look at the
Speaker 1: time stamp. The time stamp said, it's said September twenty night,
Speaker 1: which theoretically we've always been told that she was killed
Speaker 1: sometimes September through the morning of. So you talk about
Speaker 1: a letter from the past, This letter from the past
Speaker 1: could be telling us so many things. I mean, I
Speaker 1: got him to send it to me, and he fed
Speaker 1: ex it to me a day later, so I did
Speaker 1: have it in my possession. I know when you sent
Speaker 1: it to me, it leaped off the page to me.
Speaker 1: Somebody went into a post office or went to a
Speaker 1: kiosk and got a stamp printed. It's not like a
Speaker 1: post stamp, and then later it's postmarked. This is one
Speaker 1: of those stamps that has but they call it a
Speaker 1: cancelation and and they have a meat a meter mark.
Speaker 1: And when he first told me, I thought, oh, she
Speaker 1: probably got ahead of stamp, and she probably put it
Speaker 1: into her post office, I mean her apartment mailbox and
Speaker 1: so it didn't get picked up to a day later.
Speaker 1: So I expected to just see, you know, a stick
Speaker 1: and peel stamp, But this is a mechanized stamp. It's
Speaker 1: a mechanized stamp that has the amount that it costs.
Speaker 1: It's printed out and then the postmaster or if you
Speaker 1: bought it at a kiosk, it is then it's already printed.
Speaker 1: You just stick it on the envelope. And not only
Speaker 1: was the date September twenty nine that I think of
Speaker 1: like three pm I forget, but the cancelation where you
Speaker 1: buy it at a kiosk, you put it through the
Speaker 1: slot after you put the stamp on the cancel a
Speaker 1: and was the same day also correct? And you talked
Speaker 1: to her on yes? Yeah, like I said, you know,
Speaker 1: I talked to her that night because she was really
Speaker 1: upset and having some medical issues, and I told her
Speaker 1: we get it all, um put together. And you know
Speaker 1: I called her on the mean on the six that
Speaker 1: was sorry, I'm erase that um but um, yes, I
Speaker 1: talked her on the and then I tried to call
Speaker 1: her on the but per their timeline, she was already dead.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't surprised that she didn't call me back
Speaker 1: because she rarely called me back on Tuesdays and Wednesdays
Speaker 1: because she had a late school so was Tuesday, but
Speaker 1: the twenty nine was Wednesday. This whole thing. So what
Speaker 1: I was trying to say earlier is it even has
Speaker 1: a QR code on it, so some of these numbers
Speaker 1: that are on it, you know, we can find out
Speaker 1: the exact location. But y'all, this is so new to us.
Speaker 1: We're still in the process of trying to do our investigation.
Speaker 1: Owned the envelope and owned the stamp. We're not even
Speaker 1: there yet. We're working on it. We've got some really
Speaker 1: good people on it. We even have a postmaster helping.
Speaker 1: But right now we don't know if it was inside
Speaker 1: a post office or at a kiosk. We just know
Speaker 1: it wasn't like she had a stamp in her drawer
Speaker 1: put it on there and went to a postbox and
Speaker 1: dropped it. She had to go in somewhere to get
Speaker 1: this printed off to put on there. And charl you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like we're not looking at the other options.
Speaker 1: Because you know the multiple conversation you and I and
Speaker 1: the rest of the group have had, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things was, well, you know, Britty was busy,
Speaker 1: she wasn't feeling good, so maybe she gave it to
Speaker 1: a friend to mail, and so I took it upon
Speaker 1: myself even before I gave it to the Tulsa police.
Speaker 1: Two talked to the five people that I knew who
Speaker 1: were closest to her. Her best friend, the young girl
Speaker 1: that she went to school with and who came upon
Speaker 1: her apartment, the young lady that she stayed with when
Speaker 1: she first came back from Eckard College in Florida, and
Speaker 1: her brother who saw her that night at school. And
Speaker 1: then another friend, a friend who she visited in Texas
Speaker 1: that for various reasons, we were looking at some of
Speaker 1: the people that that friend knew. So those were the
Speaker 1: five people who had the closest contact with them, And
Speaker 1: I asked them, do you remember mailing a letter for
Speaker 1: Britty right around the time she was murdered? And they
Speaker 1: all said, no, that's five people the closest people to her.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean there's not other people, but there's a
Speaker 1: problem in how to find those other people. Well, here's
Speaker 1: my problem with that. If somebody is close enough to
Speaker 1: you that they say, hey, can you mail this for me,
Speaker 1: which is kind of like a little mundane type of air,
Speaker 1: and sure I can do that. And then days later,
Speaker 1: if not hours later, you find out they've been murdered.
Speaker 1: You are never going to forget you ran that errand
Speaker 1: for them, that would be so etched in your memory
Speaker 1: that the last time I saw her, she gave me
Speaker 1: a letter to mail to her dad. And then I
Speaker 1: get a phone call from a friend, or a fellow student,
Speaker 1: or a co worker or a neighbor, somebody that tells
Speaker 1: me she's not just dead, but murdered. I can't believe
Speaker 1: that person hasn't come forward, well, you know, them coming
Speaker 1: forward again. So many of her friends were young and naive,
Speaker 1: so I sort of can understand that, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: would have. But what I don't agree with is that
Speaker 1: some people are saying, who's going to remember mailing something
Speaker 1: eighteen years ago? And like you just said, if I
Speaker 1: mailed something for someone and she was murdered four days later,
Speaker 1: three days later, I'm sure it's all going to remember it.
Speaker 1: Every single student that knew those four students in Moscow,
Speaker 1: Idaho are never gonna forget where they were when they
Speaker 1: found out exactly. There is no way anybody would forget
Speaker 1: doing the last favor of that child ever asked somebody
Speaker 1: to do. And my point is, especially now, this whole
Speaker 1: time they were saying, well, she could have been killed
Speaker 1: on the or or the twenty nine, I'm shocked that
Speaker 1: person didn't come forward and say, well, it couldn't have
Speaker 1: been on the because she gave me a letter on
Speaker 1: to mail if it was a friend, absolutely right, So
Speaker 1: we have it could have been a friend or it
Speaker 1: could have been her. So if she mailed that letter
Speaker 1: earlier in the day, went and got something in home
Speaker 1: and there was somebody either bum rushed in waiting for
Speaker 1: knocked on the door, she thought she had a delivery
Speaker 1: and show open the door. Somehow they gained the entry
Speaker 1: without forcing their way in, and then she was murdered.
Speaker 1: But this changes the entire timeline, And a timeline is
Speaker 1: investigation one oh one. You need to know exactly what happened,
Speaker 1: exactly when it happened, so that you can get you know,
Speaker 1: your suspect pool reduced because if somebody gives you an
Speaker 1: alibi for the and you clear them, but then you
Speaker 1: find out she might not have been killed on the
Speaker 1: Now we have a whole new gotta star from ground
Speaker 1: zero because the timeline has just changed because we got
Speaker 1: a US posts stamp with a data sale of oh
Speaker 1: nine four that we cannot ignore. Tell them what else
Speaker 1: you got? So where do you want me to start?
Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of those things, honestly. I mean, well, Maggie,
Speaker 1: I sit here and I'm thinking all of these years
Speaker 1: two thousand five, two thousand seven, two thousand twelve, two
Speaker 1: thousand twenty, I mean all these years that you're waiting.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm waiting and waiting. And then you know,
Speaker 1: we had this DNA and the DNA was compared to
Speaker 1: hundreds hundreds of suspects. Jeff Felton was endless and trying
Speaker 1: to figure them out. And then in two thousand nineteen, C. C.
Speaker 1: Moore with Paramon not only draws a phenotype picture, but finally,
Speaker 1: after a year of searching all the genealogy charts and everything,
Speaker 1: makes a direct hit to a person that they interview.
Speaker 1: But they say he's not our killer. That's when they
Speaker 1: should have gone back to ground zero, you know, and
Speaker 1: gone back over the autopsy and gone back over the
Speaker 1: evidence and stuff. But was pick and choose, and I've
Speaker 1: keep sending them tips all the time and stuff, and
Speaker 1: so but I was hesitant when I got this because
Speaker 1: I thought, once again, I'm going to give them something
Speaker 1: that could mean something, could mean nothing. But I'm really
Speaker 1: afraid of what they might want to do or what
Speaker 1: they won't do. Rather, here's the bottom line. They can't
Speaker 1: clear people based on alibi on They have to factor
Speaker 1: this letter in period. They took the evidence from me. Yes,
Speaker 1: they didn't ask me for the list of the five
Speaker 1: people that I've checked with, as I've checked with my ex.
Speaker 1: They haven't contacted him about it yet, and they told
Speaker 1: me that they didn't think it was going to mean anything.
Speaker 1: One person in particular told me that he didn't think
Speaker 1: anybody could remember mailing anything at eighteen years But they
Speaker 1: were going to take it and look at it and stuff.
Speaker 1: But they didn't have time to sit and listen to
Speaker 1: the people I've talked to or listened to my other
Speaker 1: concerns about a meat. Okay, well you recently got the
Speaker 1: autopsy report, so let's just jump in this thing. So
Speaker 1: now you have a letter mark nine. According to the
Speaker 1: autopsy report, she had food in her stomach. They list
Speaker 1: very clearly. It resembles brown meat, a tomato, and green vegetable.
Speaker 1: If you still have food in your stomach. That's usually
Speaker 1: four to six hours. So that timeline is going to
Speaker 1: get narrated even more now. So if we go off
Speaker 1: the assumption theory one she mailed the letter, got something
Speaker 1: to eat, and then was murdered within four hours, we
Speaker 1: might have a real tight window now compared to three days.
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be three days anymore, It's not with
Speaker 1: this case. I I really don't know what to believe anymore,
Speaker 1: you know, But all these things are just strange. You know,
Speaker 1: I had seen autopsy years and years ago, but of
Speaker 1: course I had no concerns back in two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, you know, I mean, because everything
Speaker 1: was being looked at um. But you know this, and
Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem like to me. And again I'm
Speaker 1: still naive. I don't know everything, but I've been learning
Speaker 1: a lot over eight ten years. It doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: certain evidence that I was told was done and taken,
Speaker 1: like swabs and different things. It's not listed in that
Speaker 1: autopsy report. It is not listed. Maybe they didn't send
Speaker 1: me the full one. I don't know, maybe, but it
Speaker 1: is odd. There should be a list of things that
Speaker 1: were done the evidence should be listed. Clearly, there was
Speaker 1: something found under her fingernails. We swabbed her mouth, we
Speaker 1: swabbed her vaginal area. That should be in there. And
Speaker 1: here's the thing that when you look at the time
Speaker 1: of death, the time of death is not listed. When
Speaker 1: you're walking through a homicide scene, you know that death
Speaker 1: occurs in stages. So dying is a process. So one
Speaker 1: of the first things you want to look for or
Speaker 1: you know, is there any bugs, Is there any rigor mortists?
Speaker 1: Is there any color? What are the eyes look like?
Speaker 1: What's the temperature like? All of these things should happen
Speaker 1: to tell you where this body is in this process.
Speaker 1: This autopsy is very clear to me. They say there's
Speaker 1: no rigor mortis in the jaw. They say that rigor
Speaker 1: is mild. So now you're talking four to two hours.
Speaker 1: So if you've got mild rigor mortis on top of
Speaker 1: food in her stomach, Maggie, this changes this timeline to
Speaker 1: such a massive degree that it needs to be ground zero.
Speaker 1: You start over today based on what you know. Now,
Speaker 1: let's put the word out. Was there somebody else that
Speaker 1: did a favor for her? Was a neighbor going to
Speaker 1: the grocery store in the post office and did you
Speaker 1: know Brittany just say hey, can you mail this for me?
Speaker 1: And they've never even talked to that person, but maybe
Speaker 1: they'll hear your plea to say, wait a minute. I
Speaker 1: did that. I didn't think it was anything. The issue
Speaker 1: is that when I was talking, I said, well, you know, here,
Speaker 1: I've got four or five people who were closest friends.
Speaker 1: They said they didn't mail it. I can give you
Speaker 1: those names. He goes, you know, we'll get that later.
Speaker 1: But then I said, you know, but I'd really like
Speaker 1: to send this to media because that's a way to
Speaker 1: really rule out real quickly. Did somebody mail the letter
Speaker 1: for her? And words were, you can't do that. That
Speaker 1: would ruin the case. That would hurt the case. If
Speaker 1: you share that, you can't tell me it's not worth anything.
Speaker 1: And at the same time tell me, well, you're going
Speaker 1: to ruin the case. I know certain evidence was taken
Speaker 1: because I was told that early on by both then
Speaker 1: head of homicide and by the then detective. I know
Speaker 1: they were given the timeline by the m E. They
Speaker 1: didn't just make it up out there their minds. So
Speaker 1: that's why I find it so odd that it's not
Speaker 1: written on the autopsy. I think it's unusual when they
Speaker 1: say there's no injuries to this part of her body
Speaker 1: or that part of her body. I think it's odd
Speaker 1: that the evidence isn't listed. I think it's odd that
Speaker 1: there's nothing notated of what they sent to the state
Speaker 1: crime Lab. And again is did they send me the
Speaker 1: whole record? I mean, it seemed like it was pretty complete,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I guess it read as though
Speaker 1: it was complete, but there was some things I would
Speaker 1: certainly like to have seen on there. But here's the thing,
Speaker 1: in my professional opinion, the timeline has changed, so some
Speaker 1: of these folks that they have cleared, I believe they
Speaker 1: need to speak to again just to get clarification. Is
Speaker 1: there a possibility she was alive on Is there a
Speaker 1: possibility she mailed that letter herself? We have to know that. Now.
Speaker 1: I've been sending emails and requests saying, you know, so,
Speaker 1: what are you going to be doing with the card?
Speaker 1: You know? Are we gonna look at the timeline? You know,
Speaker 1: I've not got in any response. It's certainly something we're
Speaker 1: going to do. So we're gonna pinpoint where this was
Speaker 1: mailed from. Was it a post office or a kiosk.
Speaker 1: We're putting the word out. Does anybody have any information
Speaker 1: of how this got mailed? Did Brittany ask somebody to
Speaker 1: mail it? Did she ask you a week before to
Speaker 1: mail it and it was in your car and then
Speaker 1: you saw it in the visor and decided to mail it.
Speaker 1: I've done that myself. If I put something in the
Speaker 1: sun visor, I may not see it for a couple
Speaker 1: of days. So again, you can help us with this timeline.
Speaker 1: If nobody comes forward, then we have to stay that
Speaker 1: it must have been Brittany that mailed it. It's just
Speaker 1: every time I think this case can't get more mixed up,
Speaker 1: it does, you know. And it both gives me hope,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm finding myself, you know, and having
Speaker 1: this anticipation and that at the same time I'm so
Speaker 1: concerned that it's still not going to answer anything. I Mean,
Speaker 1: this really seems like maybe we've finally found one of
Speaker 1: the reasons there's such a block in this case. Well,
Speaker 1: here's what I believe. I believe there is DNA. I
Speaker 1: believe something is going to come from that from some
Speaker 1: of the testing that we believe, prayerfully is being done
Speaker 1: that you have asked repeatedly to get done. I think
Speaker 1: some answers are coming. But I believe this is such
Speaker 1: a message in a bottle type moment. I know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, I often, I don't know
Speaker 1: what I believe in, you know, but it's often I
Speaker 1: often that's pretty, you know. I just say please, please,
Speaker 1: to somehow affect, you know, something, to turn up or
Speaker 1: to lead us somewhere. So maybe, Mama, I don't know
Speaker 1: what more she could have done. I know, I know. Well,
Speaker 1: it's like you know when people say, oh, the Lord
Speaker 1: works in mysterious ways, does he? Because this is in
Speaker 1: your face, Brittany could not have done more to say,
Speaker 1: all right, mama, you wanted me to give you a clue.
Speaker 1: Here it is from my own handwriting to my own daddy,
Speaker 1: and he sent it to you, somebody you don't even
Speaker 1: talk to. He reaches out to you because he finds this,
Speaker 1: and he notices the post stamp, and I mean, game on,
Speaker 1: I mean that to me, it's powerful. Well yeah, and
Speaker 1: then inside the card are worth these words of because
Speaker 1: it was a birthday card to her grandfather for her
Speaker 1: dad to give to him. And she went, you know,
Speaker 1: I love your granddad. I'm sorry this is late. You know,
Speaker 1: It's sort of to me, was sort of saying, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I won't see you again type of thing.
Speaker 1: But but you know what it says to me that
Speaker 1: she was even more in a hurry to mail it.
Speaker 1: She already knew it was late, so she wanted it
Speaker 1: to get to the post office. Well, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of good evidence has come out with that. Just surprised.
Speaker 1: I think they're gonna look at this and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: we gotta make sure that we're gonna look at this
Speaker 1: timeline one more time. We're gonna make sure that these
Speaker 1: alibis line up now with this new possible significant lead.
Speaker 1: And I think that whether it's state lab or a
Speaker 1: private lab, I think we're gonna have some answers real soon.
Speaker 1: And Maggie, I mean, you are a warrior. And I
Speaker 1: know you're sitting right now in a hotel room by yourself,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to process all this and you're doing
Speaker 1: the best you know with it. But I admire you,
Speaker 1: and I am telling you in my gut this is
Speaker 1: such a sign from your child that I ain't gonna
Speaker 1: ignore it. I'm not going to either let's help law
Speaker 1: enforcement by spreading the word to encourage witnesses to come forward.
Speaker 1: The phone number for the tults of p D it's
Speaker 1: night five nine six nine one three five. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna end Zone seven like I always do with a
Speaker 1: quote from somebody from my Zone seven, and tonight it
Speaker 1: comes from is in Leaving the Mama of Sean Gelieving,
Speaker 1: Do not give up, leave no stone unturned. Look for
Speaker 1: signs of loved ones, but don't look hard. They'll show
Speaker 1: up when you're not expecting it. I'm Cheryl McCollum and
Speaker 1: this is on seven. Y'all better buckle up for next week.
Speaker 1: Not only are you gonna hear from one of my
Speaker 1: friends from my Zone seven, but he is also one
Speaker 1: of my mentors. He is a living legend in the
Speaker 1: law enforcement world. Clay Bryant will make you think he
Speaker 1: came right off the pages of To Kill a mocking Bird.
Speaker 1: He is a law man with the heart of gold
Speaker 1: and enough horse sense to capture professional criminals all by himself.