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Speaker 1: Well, joining me now is Rohit Chopra. Rohit was the

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Speaker 1: former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Board bureaux FPB.

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Speaker 1: This was an agency that sprung up after the financial crisis,

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Speaker 1: during the heat of the Great Recession. In many ways,

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Speaker 1: it was the brainchild of Elizabeth Warren, and fairly or

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Speaker 1: unfairly maybe that is why it has been a polarizing agency.

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Speaker 1: Just getting it off the ground ended up being a

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Speaker 1: partisan effort. It really is a not a partisan operation

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Speaker 1: at all. It is meant literally what it says consumer

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Speaker 1: protection in it mostly when it comes to financial instruments,

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Speaker 1: whether it's credit card statements, whether it's your the small

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Speaker 1: print and loans and so it is one of those

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Speaker 1: agencies that if the public understood everything about it, they

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Speaker 1: generally would be in favor. But this has been one

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Speaker 1: of these agencies that is that it's struggled to get

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Speaker 1: to sort of take root in Washington, and I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to start there, Rohitt, before we get to

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Speaker 1: sort of what regulate regulating the economy should look like

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Speaker 1: and who does it and all of those things, because obviously,

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Speaker 1: with the President's attempts to sort of get whatever, get

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Speaker 1: control of the FED Board, means all of this is

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Speaker 1: uh is part of this conversation and the entire You know,

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Speaker 1: when when Democrats have had the presidency, what for the

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Speaker 1: two times that the cf PB has been in existence,

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Speaker 1: it had real staff, and the two times that are

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Speaker 1: Republicans were in charge of the executive branch, it was

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Speaker 1: not taken seriously. So let me start there, rohit why

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Speaker 1: has it been so difficult for this agency to sort

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Speaker 1: of take root in Washington, to beyond being seen as

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Speaker 1: a partisan instrument.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you say the CFPB and its

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Speaker 2: mission has been politically polarizing. The funny thing is that

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Speaker 2: that's only true in Washington, DC. There is nothing really controversial.

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Speaker 2: And actually when you ask people, no matter whether they

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Speaker 2: are in a blue state or red state, it's pretty

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Speaker 2: common that they have a lot of skepticism about how

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Speaker 2: powerful financial institutions are treating them, whether it is the

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Speaker 2: outrageous interest rates on their credit cards, how they are

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Speaker 2: treated in terms of mysterious junk fees that pop up

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Speaker 2: in their life, to often their sense that the game

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Speaker 2: is really rigged against them when it comes to getting

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Speaker 2: ahead financially. So of course there is going to be

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Speaker 2: very deep pocketed interests who not only didn't want this

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Speaker 2: agency ever to be formed, but have wanted to kill

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Speaker 2: it from day one.

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Speaker 1: What is the agency? Let's let's back check. Let's assume,

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Speaker 1: because I do think that there there are. But it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about, but tell me more

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Speaker 1: about this agency, like to explain. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: great you know, explain it to me like I've never

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Speaker 1: been to Washington, and I you know what what the

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Speaker 1: intent and then the practice of this agency? Give me

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Speaker 1: the intent? First, Well, there's a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Law on the books to make sure that when you

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Speaker 2: get that credit card statement or when you get that mortgage,

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Speaker 2: you are not cheated. You are supposed to be disclosed

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Speaker 2: the key terms, and there's not supposed to be any

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Speaker 2: funny business to rip you off. But you know what

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Speaker 2: we saw, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: What is funny business? I mean, I understand you know

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Speaker 1: you say it, but give me an example of something that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's say you have a credit report and I

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Speaker 2: put on your credit report that you owe me twenty

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Speaker 2: six hundred dollars for an unpaid auto loan, and it

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Speaker 2: turns out you don't that you already paid it. But

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Speaker 2: I'm going to coerce you into paying it by saying

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Speaker 2: I'm going to keep this on your credit report unless

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Speaker 2: you pay me. Or let's say that you have refinanced

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Speaker 2: your mortgage, but the old mortgage company says that you

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Speaker 2: still have a balance with them. These are just basic

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Speaker 2: laws to make sure that you cannot be bullied and

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Speaker 2: that you cannot be ripped off. And most of it

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Speaker 2: is pretty common sense. But what we found in the

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Speaker 2: years leading up to the financial crisis was that the

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Speaker 2: agencies that were supposed to be enforcing it weren't doing anything.

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Speaker 1: Who were those agencies FDIC, It was a long list,

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Speaker 1: but the top of the list was the Federal Result

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Speaker 1: Board itself. That the Federal Reserve Board should have been

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Speaker 1: a regulatory body.

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Speaker 2: Oh it was. It had all the power to regulate

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Speaker 2: subprime mortgages, it had all the power to regulate credit cards,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't. And actually there was a host of

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Speaker 2: other agencies, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the

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Speaker 2: bank regulators like the FDIIC, and an obscure one called

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Speaker 2: the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. Nobody was

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Speaker 2: fulfilling their responsibilities because consumer protection was last on their

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Speaker 2: list that they were given from Congress.

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Speaker 1: Well, what explain where they were whiffing? Like what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Because I remember, you know, in many ways, Elizabeth Warren's

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Speaker 1: political career grew out of the financial crisis, right she

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Speaker 1: was sort of this expert on these issues that many

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Speaker 1: members of the media would put on and she started

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Speaker 1: getting tracked on this and she was pushing for this agency.

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Speaker 1: Is it something that there were It was too spread out,

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Speaker 1: like one agency was looking at credit reports, one agency

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Speaker 1: was looking at loans, one agency was looking at credit

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Speaker 1: card statements, which are different from larger loans, or what

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Speaker 1: was it exactly?

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Speaker 2: It was spread out and there was not enough enforcement teeth.

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Speaker 2: So what the Congress did is consolidated it and put

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Speaker 2: forth some real powers, including taking some of these big

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Speaker 2: financial institutions to court to halt them when they are

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Speaker 2: abusing consumers, to get consumers immediate refunds, and to make

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Speaker 2: them really pay rather than just sweep it under the rug.

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Speaker 2: And the record is one that has uncovered some pretty

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Speaker 2: big scandals, the Wells Fargo fake account scandal, illegal auto repossessions,

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Speaker 2: systemic errors on creditors, student loan abuses, and these are

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Speaker 2: some of the things that I think Americans are pretty

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Speaker 2: sick and tired of dealing with. But once you have

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Speaker 2: some real focus, a lot of that was cleaned up.

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Speaker 2: In the mark.

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Speaker 1: There's a big financial institution in quick that I believe

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Speaker 1: you had levied a huge fine on and they have

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Speaker 1: since the case was thrown out. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's actually more interesting than that, which is that

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Speaker 2: lots of companies were subject to orders that they agreed to.

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Speaker 2: These were settlements, and now routinely the new leadership of

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Speaker 2: the CFPB is ripping up those settlements and telling companies

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Speaker 2: they now have a pardon.

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Speaker 1: So give me an example of a big one and

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Speaker 1: what the settlement was about and what the money was

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Speaker 1: going to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, one that really bugs me is is related to

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Speaker 2: Navy Federal Credit Union. This is not a credit union

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Speaker 2: that most people bank with, but one that serves a

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Speaker 2: lot of military service members, not just in their family event,

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Speaker 2: and they were caught in a years long overdraft fee scheme.

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Speaker 2: They agreed to pay substantial penalties and frankly refunds to

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Speaker 2: all the people they cheated, but they were able to

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Speaker 2: lobby themselves out of that agreement.

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Speaker 1: Is the Treasury Secretary, the acting CFPB head right now

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Speaker 1: is that what is he so.

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Speaker 2: Well, after I was fired, he was put in and

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Speaker 2: then we don't know exactly what happened. Elon Musk maybe

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Speaker 2: got involved, and now it is RUSS vote.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the budget directors in charge of this.

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Speaker 2: Now that is right.

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Speaker 1: This was supposed to be an agency that was a

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Speaker 1: derivative of the FED. Which what would that have meant

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Speaker 1: in the Executive Branch ORG chart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so all the bank regulatory agencies, Congress has tried

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Speaker 2: to keep them a little bit separated from the political

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Speaker 2: football of Congress, right, and so they all have dedicated funding.

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Speaker 2: They all are subjected to lots of oversight, but they have,

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Speaker 2: just like the FED, their own budget line to draw

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Speaker 2: funds for because we have seen how special interests are

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Speaker 2: able to hijack that process in order to stop oversight

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Speaker 2: of their industries.

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Speaker 1: You're actually uniquely suited to answer this question because one

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Speaker 1: of the arguments that some Republicans made against starting this

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Speaker 1: agency is, well, what we have the FTC. You've actually

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Speaker 1: served on the FTC, I believe, so what's the difference.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a weird argument in my view, because the

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Speaker 2: FTC has always been banned from bringing enforcement actions against

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Speaker 2: banks and guess what industry is involved in offering financial

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Speaker 2: services to consumers' banks, So it's it is a little

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Speaker 2: bit weird. And in fact, the FTC is also supposed

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Speaker 2: to be policing everything from horse racing to pharmaceuticals and more.

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Speaker 2: And Chuck, I'm totally open. I love the idea of

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Speaker 2: reorganizing restructuring. In fact, the CFPB when it was created

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Speaker 2: another agency was totally eliminated, so I'm up for that.

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Speaker 2: But this is a fake reason. There is no duplication,

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Speaker 2: and the law is clear that the CFPB has exclusive

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Speaker 2: authority to enforce these laws against big banks. No one

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Speaker 2: else can.

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Speaker 1: So is and is that the privy the CFPB is

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Speaker 1: the primary regulatory focus is banks and credit unions.

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Speaker 2: And all those other non bank companies that offer mortgages,

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Speaker 2: auto loans, student loans, credit reports, deck collectors. It's really

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Speaker 2: all those people that you're playing those monthly bills.

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Speaker 1: So in theory, the target targets credit card company.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, so Target's credit card, all of those credit

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Speaker 2: card companies were totally subject to the enforcement and the

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Speaker 2: rules of the CFPP.

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Speaker 1: And the FTC never had oversight over how Target issued

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Speaker 1: credit cards.

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Speaker 2: Well credit cards are issued through banks. Usually you enter

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Speaker 2: in some sort of partnership of license exactly, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: So in that sense, it would be the bank that

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Speaker 1: was running that's right. Yeah, Like you know right now

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Speaker 1: Apple is looking for a new bank to bat for, right,

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Speaker 1: It's been Goldman Sachs, and they're looking for a different

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Speaker 1: bank to back them. H So you wouldn't have That's

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Speaker 1: where the CFPB, not FTC.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in fact, we brought a may your

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Speaker 2: Enforcement action against Goldman Sachs for abuses in that Apple

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Speaker 2: card product and against the likes of Citibank others, including

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Speaker 2: for those store branded cards.

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Speaker 1: What if you had to make the case to Republicans

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Speaker 1: of why they should be in favor of the CFPB,

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Speaker 1: what would be your case?

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Speaker 2: Well, we do, and behind closed doors often they would

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Speaker 2: give us ideas for things we should pursue. This is

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Speaker 2: what's so ironic when you look at the consumer complaints,

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Speaker 2: when you look at the individuals that benefit from this

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Speaker 2: type of watchdog agency, it is not some sort of

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Speaker 2: red or blue item. In fact, a disproportionate numbers of

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Speaker 2: people from red states have benefited from it. But Chuck,

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Speaker 2: this is in some way simpler than what you're asking.

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Speaker 2: This is about big money and power and who calls

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Speaker 2: the shots in Congress and in Washington. And when you

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Speaker 2: have big financial firms with lots of power in Washington,

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Speaker 2: guess where they are going to try and target some

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Speaker 2: of the defanging of law enforcement and the CFPB was

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Speaker 2: a prime target.

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Speaker 1: What does crypto fall into this? And you know, is

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Speaker 1: it something that you would argue belongs in CFPB, which

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Speaker 1: it argues, does it belong in the FTC when it

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Speaker 1: comes to regulating these stable coins, regulating how they're sort

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Speaker 1: of issued, how they're used, et cetera. Or are we

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Speaker 1: still trying to figure that out? I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: they passed the Genius Act, which was supposed to give

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Speaker 1: some clarity to this. But if you were still the

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Speaker 1: head of the CFPB, would you be arguing that what

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Speaker 1: parts of crypto do you think should fall under the CFPB.

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Speaker 2: Yes, crypto's kind of if we think of it as

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Speaker 2: a technology inasmuch that it's being used as a consumer

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Speaker 2: payment so that you can use at retail stores whomever,

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Speaker 2: that would be covered by the CFPB. As you know,

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Speaker 2: most of crypto is more in the speculative trading world.

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Speaker 2: It's more you know, kind of what we would have

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Speaker 2: our market regulators, SEC and other agencies c.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's what the big big question is, is it

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Speaker 1: is it something that belongs Is it a stock or

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Speaker 1: is it a commodity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's really the stuff that's traded. I think

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Speaker 2: what we're starting to see is an effort to create,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, what's known as stable coins, which is

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Speaker 2: basically a kind of payment devices like a credit card. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's more it's I mean, it's just a new way

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Speaker 2: to call a credit card.

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Speaker 1: I mean. And so it used to be a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of companies would issue a credit card. Now they're

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Speaker 1: going to issue stable coins.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And so there are lots of laws and

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Speaker 2: rules on the books that, for exampleemple when your credit

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Speaker 2: card or debit card is misused, you have some rights

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Speaker 2: to dispute it when it's fraudulent. You know, those laws

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Speaker 2: have to apply to for these stable coins. And that

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Speaker 2: was that's the type of thing that the CFPB would

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Speaker 2: enforce if that if those technologies really came to pass.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things we really focused on was

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Speaker 2: how these big tech companies were creating new payment instruments

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Speaker 2: and currencies and to make sure that they were subject

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Speaker 2: to the same type of oversight when it came to fraud, hacks, errors,

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Speaker 2: and other places where consumers can lose a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: Were you there when Facebook floated doing their own currency

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Speaker 1: and then they backed off after I think after they

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Speaker 1: realized that the government would be all over them.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was, I was an FTC commissioner at the time,

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Speaker 2: and you know when Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandberg others

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Speaker 2: when they concocted this. This was a big moment because

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Speaker 2: it showed that big tech companies, if they could get

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Speaker 2: their hands on currency, it would give them the power

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Speaker 2: to track transactions throughout the entire economy and be able

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Speaker 2: to in some ways coerce merchants as well as know

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Speaker 2: a full picture of how we spend, when we spend,

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Speaker 2: our behavior, so that they could target us even further.

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Speaker 1: Well, that gets it to who should I mean? So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, our data right you know, we right now

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Speaker 1: have so little for whatever reason, there's very few laws

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Speaker 1: are protecting our data right now. It gets bought and

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Speaker 1: sold all over the place. And I guess the question

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Speaker 1: is if data is being used to market to me,

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Speaker 1: that would be the FTC. If data is being used

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Speaker 1: to look under the hood of my financial transactions, I

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Speaker 1: guess would fall under CFPB. I guess what is isere

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Speaker 1: If we're ever going to have a Congress that tries

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Speaker 1: to pass a data bill of rights, where should where

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Speaker 1: should the public assume that the government? Which agency should

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Speaker 1: the government be? Should we be expecting to protect our

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Speaker 1: abuse of our personal data?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't actually think the public cares which agency.

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Speaker 2: They just want it done.

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Speaker 1: Well, I agree they don't care. So that question I'm

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Speaker 1: asking you is which agencies?

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Speaker 2: I think the SEC is probably the right place. This

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Speaker 2: is a they already has children's privacy, that already has

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Speaker 2: all sorts of data protections. It's true the CFPB others

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Speaker 2: do enforceable.

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Speaker 1: So when it floats into what you just described that

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Speaker 1: you thought that that tech companies could suddenly understand our

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Speaker 1: spending habits in ways that just make marketing to us

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Speaker 1: even more aggressive and more potentially coercive.

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Speaker 2: Is the FTC up to that, Well, we would need

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Speaker 2: to make sure of it. But of course, if it

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Speaker 2: involves currency and payments, and maybe the FPB may have

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Speaker 2: to do it. If it involves your health data, there

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Speaker 2: might be other agencies. We don't want to create too

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Speaker 2: much of a monopoly on enforcement. You want there to

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Speaker 2: be aggressive corporate enforcement. And we also want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that if the FEDS are asleep at the switch

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Speaker 2: like they were with opioids, like they were in the

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Speaker 2: lead up to the mortgage crisis, that states and individuals

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Speaker 2: can also vindicate their rights.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the FED here a little bit. Right,

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Speaker 1: the President is trying desperately to sort of get more

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Speaker 1: spots to fill on the FED board. Looks like his.

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Speaker 1: You know, they've spectacularly failed on Lisa Cook, assuming that

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Speaker 1: the docum mins that have since surface that show she there.

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Speaker 1: Whatever whatever charges they thought they were going to be

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Speaker 1: able to bring against her, they're not going to be

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Speaker 1: able to bring against her, which likely locks her in,

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Speaker 1: will buy her some political immunity for some time. I

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Speaker 1: think here, but what does what is it that the

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Speaker 1: FED is regulating that he wants control of that you

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Speaker 1: think would be doe harm to the economy.

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Speaker 2: You know, the Founders when they drafted the Constitution, they

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Speaker 2: were very freaked out about the idea of the president

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Speaker 2: controlling the money supply.

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Speaker 1: They had no we didn't have a Federal Reserve Act

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Speaker 1: back then, though they didn't.

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Speaker 2: They were really worried though, what they saw in England,

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Speaker 2: where the Kings were just using the money supply to

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Speaker 2: their own personal advantages, and in fact, a glorious revolution

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Speaker 2: in England was partially fomented by that, and they said

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Speaker 2: they wanted to make sure the Congress was in charge

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Speaker 2: of regulating money. You know, you fast forward through history

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Speaker 2: and you see that to get out of some of

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Speaker 2: the problems our country had, we formed this new central

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Speaker 2: Bank to be able to make sure that there wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be financial panics, depressions, constant booms and busts, and to

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Speaker 2: make sure there was some steadiness to our money. And

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Speaker 2: I actually think that we should be worried about a

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Speaker 2: president completely controlling the money supply, just like Kingswood, because

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Speaker 2: this has the power to pick winners and losers, to

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Speaker 2: reward friends, to punish enemies, and to use the control

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Speaker 2: of money in ways that can give them even more power. Right,

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Speaker 2: So we see the FED usually is discussed as this

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Speaker 2: kind of priests and priestesses who you know, are PhDs

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Speaker 2: in economics, but this really is a big, big question

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Speaker 2: about who has the power to regulate money.

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Speaker 1: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

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Speaker 1: there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

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Speaker 1: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

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Speaker 1: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

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Speaker 1: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

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Speaker 1: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

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Speaker 1: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

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Speaker 1: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

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Speaker 1: insurance company originally offered. That original offers six hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So with more than a thousand lawyers across

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Speaker 1: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

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Speaker 1: If you're injured, you need a lawyer. You need somebody

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Speaker 1: to get your back. Check out for the People dot com,

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Speaker 1: Slash podcast or now Pound Law, Pound five to two

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Speaker 1: nine law on your cell phone. And remember all law

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Speaker 1: firms are not the same, So check out Morgan and Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Their fee is free unless they win Well, I guess

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Speaker 1: it just one of those things where I didn't know

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Speaker 1: we called it into question. Our economy has been fairly successful,

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Speaker 1: only when we've had a couple of you know, asleep

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Speaker 1: at the switches moments, only when we politicize the fedback

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Speaker 1: with Arthur Burns and Richard Nixon. But for the most part,

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Speaker 1: we see we seem to have a pretty good blueprint

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Speaker 1: of how this should work, and yet here we are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in fact, I think that there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of effort to say, how do we restore Federal Reserve independence?

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Speaker 2: I think it's now been dead for several months now.

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Speaker 2: In the lead up to President Trump getting inaugurated for

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Speaker 2: the second time, you saw the Federal Reserve make a

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Speaker 2: lot of political moves to stave off President Trump. But

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Speaker 2: I think that just showed that they were willing to

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Speaker 2: bend the knee.

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Speaker 1: There's every single industry, the media industry, that what's left

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Speaker 1: of it in so called traditional media did it. You've

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Speaker 1: seen it in all sorts of political spaces. You've seen

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Speaker 1: it in the corporate world, you know, I've seen you know,

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Speaker 1: you've even seen it with the mayor of Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: Right like doing trying to a peace ap peace and

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Speaker 1: hope that he doesn't come with a sledgehammer. And yet,

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Speaker 1: of course he always comes with the sledgehammer no matter

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Speaker 1: what you do it.

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Speaker 2: And they see this Federal Reserve institution as in some

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Speaker 2: ways being able to wield immense power and chuck, look

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Speaker 2: at what the FED did during the financial crisis and

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Speaker 2: during COVID, injecting trillions of dollars through Wall Street and

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Speaker 2: the financial system. While Congress is sort of debating about

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Speaker 2: programs here.

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Speaker 1: I'd argue that FED saved our economy twice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the question is is that now who will

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Speaker 2: be able to pull the strings there? And what will

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Speaker 2: that power potentially be weaponized to do? I think that's

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Speaker 2: really the question.

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Speaker 1: That Well, give me, give me some examples, right. We

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Speaker 1: have Turkey as the example. I had Douglas Houle Ticket,

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Speaker 1: a long time sort of Republican leaning economists, was a

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Speaker 1: Republican appointee to run the CBO at one point, Na

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Speaker 1: John McCain's been you know so, but he is always

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Speaker 1: held up. Turkey is like, do you want to know

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Speaker 1: what happens when when when a central bank gets politicized?

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Speaker 1: Let me show you Turkey walk me through that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the most traditional argument, which is

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Speaker 2: a president or authoritarian takes control over their central bank,

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Speaker 2: tries to juice the economy by essentially printing lots of

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Speaker 2: money and the result is lots and lots of inflation.

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Speaker 2: I think that's just like a narrow part of what

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Speaker 2: could happen. But remember the Federal Reserve and other central banks,

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Speaker 2: they also have the power to buy assets. They can

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Speaker 2: determine what to buy. And you hear all sorts of

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Speaker 2: ideas now being thrown at them. Should they be.

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Speaker 1: Bhind bits and the entire crypto? I mean that just

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Speaker 1: the mainstreaming of some of this crypto that to this

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Speaker 1: day is just an idea of tech people that want

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Speaker 1: to make something valuable and create value out of something

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Speaker 1: out of thin air.

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Speaker 2: And the truth is is that the FED essentially has

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Speaker 2: a credit card with no limit and no real interest rate.

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Speaker 2: And people observed this.

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Speaker 1: The king of debt as president in the United States

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Speaker 1: right now, he's going to love that.

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Speaker 2: And people were nervous after the financial crisis when the

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Speaker 2: FED intervened in the economy. When it did in Congress

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Speaker 2: actually stripped some power from it. And then during COVID,

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Speaker 2: you know, injected a huge amount of money in the system,

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Speaker 2: pushing up the stock market others. So I think this

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Speaker 2: is a power that some people are sniffing and they

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Speaker 2: want to use it.

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Speaker 1: So there's some of the some of my libertarian friends

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Speaker 1: who you know, and some of these things that the

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Speaker 1: logic I get, but in practice it doesn't always work

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Speaker 1: in a libertarian utopia. But there there's a strong bent

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Speaker 1: in the libertarian crowd of Essentially, you hear the you

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Speaker 1: hear the phrase audit the fret, audit the FED, right,

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Speaker 1: and you'll have others even argue there shouldn't be a FED.

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Speaker 1: What do you say to those folks?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it can be it comes off as a

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Speaker 2: little goofy sometimes, but I try and have good faith

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Speaker 2: on what they're worried about.

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Speaker 1: What do you believe they're worried about? Right? I take

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Speaker 1: the good faith path with me here with Rand Paul, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, And that's essentially you were talking about here

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Speaker 1: is who's probably the Ran and Ron have been the

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Speaker 1: most coherent critics of the FED. And you know, doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that what they're advocating is made stare, but they're

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Speaker 1: probably two of the louder critics.

439
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you see a growing spectrum of critics

440
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: of the FED that have essentially said they are positioning

441
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: themselves as the wizards of the economy and they have

442
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 2: control over this enormous, essentially spending an investment power that

443
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: has very little checks on them.

444
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: And is that a fair criticism? You think that is?

445
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: Oh well, I think there's something to be said that

446
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: a lot of decisions that they do make would probably

447
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: be better for the Congress to be making.

448
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: You know, welcome to Congress gave up so much authority

449
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: hour of the last decades. I mean, I'm just I'm

450
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: so sick and tired of Congress, not members of Congress,

451
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: not reading the founding papers and not understanding what their

452
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: role was intended to be.

453
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: And they have totally just transferred power to someone else

454
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: rather than actually playing their role.

455
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: So this is it, because that's hard, it's hard to

456
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: do this work in Congress, they and it's easier to

457
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: let a president do it and blame them when they

458
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: mess up.

459
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: I think that's right, and I think we got to

460
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: figure out what is it that we want this institution

461
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: to be doing. I think the FED should be making

462
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: sure that we're running the economy with the real economy

463
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: in mind, not just the financial sector. We want family farms,

464
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: small businesses, others to be able to get loans to

465
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: hire people and produce. And I think that there is

466
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: real questions about whether we have that system today. We're

467
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: a handful of very large Wall Street institutions call the

468
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: shots on how credit and payments move in the economy.

469
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: So I want to take you back. I remember when

470
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: during the height of the financial crisis, when Dodd Frank

471
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: was being written, and there were and you basically had

472
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: two senators who were trying to work together, Bob Corker

473
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: and Mark Warner, who were seen as two of the

474
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: more conversant senators on the issue, meaning they actually sort

475
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: of understood it, didn't their eyes didn't glaze over, you know,

476
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: at the second briefing of how Dodd Frank should work,

477
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: et cetera. But I also had many I remember talking

478
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: to a few Treasury officials who said, well, only Corker

479
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: and Warner really understand this, and that's what makes it

480
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: difficult for Congress to write this law. And I look

481
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: at it as if something is so complicated that the

482
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: representatives that are elected to Congress don't understand it, then

483
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the law itself is flawed. What say you?

484
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes we create excuses for politicians on

485
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: how they can worm their way out of making decisions

486
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: about big problems. And the truth is is that money

487
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: and banking from the time of the British Crown as

488
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: our componial ruler, these were hard and Chuck, there's lots

489
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: of hard things about defence and weapons and patents and medicines.

490
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: This is their job. And I think that when we say, well,

491
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: let's just substitute it for kicking the can down the

492
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: road and letting someone else decide or see what happens,

493
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: that's really I think malpractice, and we should be willing

494
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: to actually hold our leaders more accountable to get more done,

495
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: even if it's tricky.

496
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: So let me ask this, did you ever try to

497
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: regulate or look under the hood of an algorithm that

498
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,719
Speaker 1: was used to decide, you know, how much credit somebody

499
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: was was qualified for? And if you did, what was what?

500
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: How did the tech companies respond?

501
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: So the answer is yes. And there's a law in

502
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: the books that says if a lender is using some

503
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: type of third party score or data, they've got to

504
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: tell you if they deny you that loan, a clear

505
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: statement of reasons as to why. And we would come

506
00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:00,239
Speaker 2: up against some financial firms who they themselves didn't know

507
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: how to interpret the algorithm themselves, and the answer was,

508
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: then you can't use it. And this is what is

509
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: happening throughout the entire economy. And as AI, which to

510
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: me always has been a little bit of a marketing term.

511
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: You should think of AI or an algorithm. There's really

512
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: just a complex set of mathematics that is generating some

513
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: sort of decision or content. And we've had that in le.

514
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: Probably I always say it's a probability model. Yeah, this

515
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: is an intelligence. It's just a probability model, and we've

516
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: had it for a long time. We in financial services.

517
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: It's called a Fiico score. There's all sorts.

518
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 2: Of these algorithms, and to me, they have to have

519
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: some degree of accountability. When you are using those algorithms

520
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: and you cannot explain why someone is being denied alone,

521
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: then you have to be accountable for that.

522
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you deal with AI pricing? You know,

523
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: when I am, I wish Delta airlines flew to more

524
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: places because of the major airlines I sort of feel

525
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: like that they're the most consumer friendly, and yet I'm

526
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: upset at them because they're the ones that have although

527
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: I guess to their credit, they're at least admitting that

528
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: they want to do this. They want to lean in

529
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: on AI pricing. What do I mean by that? Well,

530
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: they want to maximize how much I pay versus how

531
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: much my daughter pays, right, and she's a grown adult

532
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: with her own income level. I'm a grown adult with

533
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: my own income level, and so it's pretty clear Delta

534
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: wants to treat us as different consumers. They're going to

535
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: assume that I can pay more, and they're going to

536
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: charge me more. They're going to assume she can pay

537
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: less and they're going to charge her less. How's that

538
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: not discrimination? And how are we going to deal with

539
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: this quote unquote probability model dictating personal pricing that you know,

540
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: what I see as a price and what you see

541
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: as a price will not be the same thing. How

542
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: is that legal? Yeah?

543
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: I actually think we need to have a moratorium or

544
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 2: ban of this. I was diagnosed with a serious medical

545
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: issue several years ago, and, like many other people who

546
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: deal with cancer other serious issues, sometimes notice in targeted

547
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: ads really stuff they wouldn't have gotten before, you know,

548
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: no health exam, life insurance, all of this stuff. And

549
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: you really got to wonder if somebody knows if you

550
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: just lost a parent, or if you are struggling with

551
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: mental health issues.

552
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: Or if you're airline so you have a death in

553
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: your family, you're gonna have to buy this ticket.

554
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: They should not be able to use that information at all.

555
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: And I don't care how they try and justify it.

556
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: What is the legal justification that they're using. What's what's

557
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: have you heard of good?

558
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: Their legal justification is that it's not illegal. And it

559
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: is true that there are some things that are considered

560
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: off limits. We have anti discrimination laws that cover race

561
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: and other protected classes.

562
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: But is socioeconomic status something that's a protected class?

563
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: Though, no, it's not. And in fact, one of the

564
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: best consumer protections I think that is out there is

565
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: the price tag, because you know how much it is

566
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 2: before they know anything about you. And I think we

567
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: should be seriously worried about the shift in even brick

568
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: and mortar retail that are moving toward digital price tags

569
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 2: or where you have to scan a code to figure

570
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: out the price for you.

571
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: I think I think it's pretty obvious this is happening

572
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: with Uber and Lyft, but I don't know.

573
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: How to curve it.

574
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: Fact right, I have to say, you know where they're

575
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: just you know, if I use the black car service,

576
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: somebody else doesn't. You know, the black car price might

577
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: be lower for somebody that doesn't use it as often

578
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: as maybe I do because I'm willing to use it.

579
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: You know. It just it It feels powerless as a consumer,

580
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: and it's just like, great, this is only going to

581
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: get this is going to get abuse, and I just

582
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: worry that Congress doesn't even understand how to stop it.

583
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: Well, that's why if they don't, the states should pass laws.

584
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: To Bannon, I think this is something we have to

585
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 2: keep pushing on because that is turning into a world

586
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: where AI is not going to really help people. It

587
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 2: is just going to help companies exploit people.

588
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: Well, and what it'll do is those that are truly

589
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: they will create false personas that make them seem poor.

590
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people will hack that system and

591
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: it will actually be self defeating.

592
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe. I mean sometimes it's hard to even

593
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: figure out how to avoid some of this. You know,

594
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: they say, oh, you get different prices. If you're checking

595
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: on something, checking a price with an iPhone versus an

596
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: android versus a desktop. I mean, I don't want to

597
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 2: waste all my time to thinking about all this. I

598
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: want it to just be fair. Just like I don't

599
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: want to walk onto an airplane and have to inspect

600
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: some sort of records to determine if it's safe. It

601
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: should just not crash when I walk on that plane.

602
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 2: And this is why I think we have big problems

603
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: on our hands when you have an administration that is

604
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 2: essentially defunding and destroying law enforcement that is essentially keeping

605
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: the things we want to do fundamentally safe, so that

606
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: now we have to even be worried about it.

607
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's interesting. You called it law enforcement, right,

608
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: which is basically you know, the financial police, right, And

609
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: if people saw the regulators as sort of cops, they

610
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: might you know, there are those that don't want the

611
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: regulators call them bureaucratic bureaucrats, and those that do call

612
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: them cops, right Like. That seems to be the messaging

613
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: fight that takes place when it comes to regular regulators

614
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: in general, but specifically regulators for the for the financial world.

615
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 2: Well, I think here's also the issue, which is that

616
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: there are people who have had experiences dealing with nonsense

617
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: red tape. And then there's I think the big financial firms,

618
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: big tech firms, others where people perceive that they seem

619
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: to be breaking the law over and over and over again,

620
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: and then there's just no consequences.

621
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: There never is any consequences.

622
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: This is something to say.

623
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: Oops, we're sorry. They'll put it an apology.

624
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: Sometimes oh and and Chuck, you will have the law

625
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 2: enforcement agency or the Justice department or the regulator beat

626
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: their chest about how tough they are because of the

627
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: fine they've gotten. And then you look in the stock market.

628
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: The fine is it perceived by investors as just a

629
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: tiny cost of doing business. And one of the things

630
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: that the industries have criticized me for is that I

631
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: really believe that when you have a repeat offenders like that,

632
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: fines are not a deterrent. They're sometimes an incentive. If

633
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: you're making money and just paying a fine out of

634
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 2: your profits, you have to face real accountability, like individuals

635
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: in the C suite. Were they calling the shots and

636
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: should they be accountable or should we put real limits

637
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: on these companies in terms of growth restrictions, or frankly,

638
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 2: if they're criminally convicted of massive fraud, then perhaps they

639
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: should no longer be in business.

640
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 1: They should somehow lose their license, or their executives should

641
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: be criminally charged or something like that.

642
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's the real deterrence that I think

643
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: people know. If it's a small business, they will be

644
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: shut down, and if it's a big player, they just

645
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: skate part. And I think that lack of that two

646
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: tier justice is a very big frustration for a lot

647
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 2: of people and everything right, and it makes them feel

648
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 2: that their government is just on the side of people

649
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: who are exploiting them. It bothers me so much because

650
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: we saw it with opioids, we saw it with the

651
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: mortgage crisis. There's been so many cases, and now with

652
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: big tech companies teenly violating privacy other laws, it just

653
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: seems that there is no consequences.

654
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: Look, they're singularly I don't know what happened to the

655
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: travelayers in this country, but they're singularly responsible for the

656
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: current political environment that has caused all sorts of physical

657
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: harm to people. I do think that Section two thirty

658
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: doesn't protect these tech companies the minute they create an algorithm,

659
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: because the minute you create an algorithm, you have you've

660
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: become a publisher.

661
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: That's right, you are no longer some neutral pipe correct

662
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 2: that information is flowing from it is.

663
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: I think section two thirty is doesn't matter anymore. Once

664
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: you've decided to start an algorithm and create one to

665
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: do this.

666
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: And once you are using behavioral targeting, you are not

667
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: some sort of path of billboard or telephone wire. You

668
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: are actually in the business and you should be accountable

669
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: for your content. And you know what, Chuck, we have

670
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: had a situation in our country where this complete lack

671
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: of accountability has led to many social media networks and

672
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: tech platforms being havens for crime, recruiting terrorists, and so

673
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: much harm to kids and teens. And it just feels

674
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: like if the current system persists, it will only get worse.

675
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: No, there's no and this is it is. It is

676
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: really frustrating that the tech companies are taking no responsibility

677
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: or whatsoever and they've not been held accountable. We all

678
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: know it in different ways that they're that they're sort

679
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: of you know that they're predator. They're essentially marketing predators

680
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: of using our data. Again, their predators, whether it's on

681
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: our what we watch or hear or see, or how

682
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: we spend our money.

683
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: I think that if we don't solve this, we are

684
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: going to continue to move to a darker, darker place.

685
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 2: I always tell people completely.

686
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: I do agree with that. I mean, when the government,

687
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 1: when people stop believing the government is there to look

688
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: out for them, it's the beginning of of people deciding no,

689
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: if they're not following the law, watch should I yeah?

690
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: And we that is where we're moving to. I feel

691
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: that I fear that when you have a small click

692
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: of companies that can control the flow of money and

693
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: control the flow of information, those are the two things

694
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: that a society basically rests on. And you have now

695
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: a situation where it is a small group of people

696
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: who have the power to pick winners and losers commercially

697
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: and politically.

698
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: Did you get here? Not how did you get here today?

699
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: But how did you become a regulator? How did you

700
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: you know? Is that is when you went to college?

701
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you're very impressive degrees both the Harvard and Wharton.

702
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 1: But how'd you end up on this path?

703
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: You know?

704
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: I I'm your origin story.

705
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: I went to business school, which really that school was

706
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: a way it has produced financers, felons, everything in between.

707
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: And finance was actually to me a place that was

708
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: supposed to be about creating companies, creating opportunities. And when

709
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 2: I witnessed the financial crisis and the extraordinary failure of

710
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: federal law enforcement and regulators, I really became so disillusioned

711
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: with how the system was working. And I think the

712
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: only answer to it was really to choose a different

713
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: path and in some ways taking on these concentrated corporate

714
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: interests who want to see the regulators as lap dogs

715
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 2: rather than watchdogs. That's what we have to stop. And

716
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: I think that lots of people around this country. I

717
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: really spent a lot of my professional life a decade

718
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: ago on confronting these big student loan companies.

719
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: Where were you doing that?

720
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: How are you doing When I was at the CFPB

721
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: before I was director, and after the mortgage crisis, discovered

722
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: that there was a aftershock all of those families who

723
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: were unable to afford college for their kids because they

724
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: lost everything, All of those states and cities that lost

725
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 2: all their tax based tuition searched, student debts searched, and

726
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: you had a whole crop millions and millions of people

727
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 2: who were owing a trillion dollars. For a few years,

728
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: there was I think over a million people each year

729
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: defaulting on their student loans, and this was basically a

730
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: total and complete, just travesty for the society. Young people

731
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: owing that much money, graduating into a horrible economy in

732
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine twenty ten, and would never The

733
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: data shows that some of them never catch up. And

734
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: now you see a response to that financial crisis that

735
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: has pushed up asset values and no one even thinks

736
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: they can really buy a home when they have that

737
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: much debt. So I think that this is part of

738
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 2: a generational piece too, which is that it feels that

739
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: prior generations were able to have the benefit of a

740
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: country that actually gave them affordable college, lots of pathways

741
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: to be able to have a stable financial life to

742
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: raise a family. And now we just don't live in

743
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: that country. We live in a place where it is

744
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: basically a treadmill that you run faster and faster on

745
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 2: just to afford the basics. And that is not what

746
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 2: we want.

747
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: Rab Emmanuel was famously said, and a sort of one

748
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: of these after post Obama presidencies, conversations that I remember

749
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: him saying, he goes because he was an advocate against

750
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: pursuing Obamacare at the time, or the Affordable Care Act,

751
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: and his argument was the public so, you know, hurting

752
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: from the financial crisis, that really the better politics would

753
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: have been some old Testament justice, right, and the you know,

754
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: when people think back to the financial crisis, it is

755
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: always nobody got frog marched, nobody got held criminally accountable

756
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: or destroying, frankly pieces of the global economy. So let's

757
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: say there had been old Testament justice who deserved to

758
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: be brought up on criminal charges. You know, I think

759
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: about this because you know, with during the first couple

760
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: of years of this century, we had the en Run.

761
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: Enron was sort of the poster child for a handful

762
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: of companies that were ripping people off, and we put

763
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: the n Roun guys in jail, and I think in

764
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: some ways it was symbolic, but it made I think

765
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: it sort of served its purpose. Right, somebody paid a

766
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: price with the financial so nobody paid a price. Well,

767
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: actually a lot of people paid a price, but not

768
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: the people that were the perpetrators. If you could go

769
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: back in time, who would you have brought up on charges.

770
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: I think there's a long list of investigations that were

771
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: never even completed. I'm sorry, I'm misspeaking, never even started. Yeah,

772
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 2: I can't remember what, you know, like the credit default swaps?

773
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: Like where how did this start?

774
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: Right? Should there have been an investigation to figure it out?

775
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: Like where did this financial instrument start? And where did

776
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: it come from? And who thought it was a good

777
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: idea and who who noticed the flaw the first time

778
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: they realized, uh, oh, these are going to turn into

779
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: really bad loans.

780
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know what often is the excuse is

781
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: to push the blame on frontline employees or others. Maybe

782
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 2: they're not, you know, low paid, but to say, well,

783
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 2: was a rogue actor within within the bank or within

784
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: the financial institution and chuck. This is not just true

785
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 2: of the financial crisis. This has been true of many

786
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 2: other big corporate scandals too. And I think that once again,

787
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: we are supposed to be a nation of laws where

788
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: people are supposed to adhere to those laws, and if

789
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: they don't, they are held accountable. And I think when

790
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: you don't have that, that is just another signal that

791
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: maybe the answer isn't to follow the law. Maybe it

792
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: is to push the envelope so far and then deal

793
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 2: with figure out how political power to lobby yourselves out

794
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: of it.

795
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I could easily picture somebody at a financial

796
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,919
Speaker 1: institution saying, by the time they figure it out, we're

797
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: going to be so much further down the road financially

798
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: that we're too big to fail, we're too big to punish,

799
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: we're too big to bring charges on. I mean, do

800
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: you think it feels like that was the mindset?

801
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 2: Well, in fact, there was concerns about this with Attorney

802
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,919
Speaker 2: General Holder at the time about concerns, and he said

803
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: it about concerns about prosecuting some of these large financial

804
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: institutions because of potential market disruptions. So when too, there's

805
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: too big to fail, too big to jail, and the

806
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 2: list goes on and Chuck, I will tell you that

807
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 2: the accountability isn't just for those firms. Yeah, there is

808
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 2: also a sense, I think this is true in both

809
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: political parties, that senior officials, politicians, cabinet secretaries who were

810
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 2: involved in supposed to policing all of this, and in

811
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: fact they just seem to keep getting jobs and keep

812
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: holding positions of power. There is no question that under

813
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: the George W. Bush administration, the deregulation was a pivotal

814
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: reason for the financial crisis, But even those of us

815
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,479
Speaker 2: who identify as Democrats would admit that in the late

816
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties the choice by top Treasury officials and the

817
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: Clinton administration to massively deregulate, of course, had a major

818
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: role in the financial system melting down and destroying trillions

819
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: of wealth. And I hope that we keep that in

820
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: mind when we determine who should be the stewards of policymaking.

821
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 1: Are you making the case that basically because because there

822
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: were bad actors in both parties, that in some ways

823
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: it was easier to move on than do nobody want.

824
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to see where these investigations would go, because

825
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: there were too many friends that might get scooped up

826
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 1: in this swooped up in this investigation.

827
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's more of that law,

828
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 2: and there's lots of federal agencies that give white glove

829
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 2: treatment to these big firms and big law firms. But

830
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: I also think there's a piece of this where we

831
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:34,959
Speaker 2: should not have key officials who were supposed to be

832
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: guarding against the financial crisis guarding against these major breakdowns

833
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 2: to continue to wield lots of power in our system.

834
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 2: And I think that is what we are seeing right

835
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: now happening in our politics, that people are feeling like

836
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: there is a click of companies and individuals who just

837
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: don't face any consequences. And I think that's what people

838
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: want to move past.

839
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: Oh, I think there's another populist firestorm coming. You know,

840
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: if you could argue that Trump was a cultural populist,

841
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: it was not an economic populist, even though he wants

842
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: to claim he's want But I wonder if there's going

843
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: to be this sort of Teddy Roosevelt like revolt right now.

844
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it does feel like we're repeating, at least

845
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: or rhyming with some of the late nineteenth century early

846
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: twentieth century relationships a government and industry had.

847
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is what the challenge is going forward.

848
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 2: We need I am the first to say, we want

849
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: there to be lots of businesses, lots of enterprise, lots

850
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 2: of new companies, but we don't want them to be

851
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: so big and concentrated that they take over from politics,

852
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: and that they are not subject to the laws of

853
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: the land, and that each and every one of us

854
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: is opposed to it.

855
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 1: Here too well roh, hen I feel more informed and

856
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,879
Speaker 1: more angry. So well done, I guess well.

857
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: You know, anger isn't always bad, but you have to

858
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 2: channel it into doing something. And I think too many

859
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: people right now are tuning out because they are mad,

860
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 2: but they actually need.

861
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: To do I kind of think they've lost trust in

862
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: both parties to do the right thing. And I don't

863
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: blame them, because when the chips were down, did the

864
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 1: parties do the right thing? The answer is no.

865
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've lost trust in the media, They've lost trust

866
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: in so many institutions. But again, tuning out is not

867
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 2: the answer. It is to fix the system, no matter

868
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 2: how rotten it is.

869
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: And you think we have all the agencies we need,

870
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: We just need more resources and teeth, you know want.

871
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: I don't want Americans have to learn the alphabet soup

872
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 2: of agencies. I just want people to feel they have

873
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: control over their government to prosecute law breaking and to

874
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 2: protect people from these abuses, and frankly, so that their

875
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: government is responsive when dealing with the unbelievable challenges we face,

876
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 2: whether it is technology and AI or the high prices

877
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 2: that people are paying for college and for groceries and

878
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 2: they haven't seen that. And the way to do that

879
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 2: is to make sure the politicians and leaders are standing

880
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: up to these concentrated corporate interests.

881
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does feel as if it is even if

882
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,439
Speaker 1: the regulation is taking place, the public doesn't quite see it. Right.

883
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: Do you think what advice would you give a future

884
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: head of CFPB. Would you tell them that they've got

885
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: to sort of be more of a public person, that

886
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: they got to explain their actions more, they got to

887
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 1: bring people in. I mean, it feels like now every

888
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: entity has to have a communications strategy if you want

889
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: to sort of protect your financing or protect your credibility.

890
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: And I hate that, you know, in some ways, I

891
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: don't want our regulators to become well known because in

892
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: many ways that might undermine their ability to regulate an

893
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: industry where a person gets singled out and gets turned

894
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 1: into a political weapon in order to cover up what

895
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 1: it is that person's looking for. But it does feel

896
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: as if you do kind of need to let the

897
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: public know what this agency is supposed to be doing.

898
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really a push, especially for whoever

899
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: will be president next and after that if they are

900
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: not energetically explain how if they are pushing to improve

901
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: people's lives. I think that's been true for centuries, and

902
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: those who succeed are the ones who let the public

903
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: know what they are doing and who they are up against.

904
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: Let say, I see it state. I used to joke

905
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: that AG was short for aspiring governor if you were

906
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: a state AG. But you know what the state ags

907
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: that became governor, it's because they were explaining to the

908
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: public what they were doing.

909
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, vanity they.

910
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: Were going on, and usually it was consumer protection that

911
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: was at the heart, and that's the most bipartisan thing

912
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: you could do.

913
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: I think that I feel pretty proud that the CFPB

914
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: helped to eliminate billions and billions of dollars in junk fees,

915
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: whether it's illegal overdraft fees or being nickeled and dime

916
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: wherever you are. But you're right, it does mean that

917
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 2: presidents others they need to explain everything that they are doing.

918
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: Now they do. I mean it, You know you can't. Yes,

919
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: citizenship comes with some responsibility, but people have other things

920
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: in their lives and you can't expect them to do

921
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: all the.

922
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 2: Research that's exactly right. They are just trying to run

923
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: on that treadmill to stay afloat, and it's our job

924
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: to slow that treadmil.

925
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: What are you doing now? What does a former regulator

926
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: do when they're in the private sector.

927
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 2: I'm not in the private sector. I am still trying

928
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 2: to figure out what do we do to make sure

929
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 2: that we fix this broken economy. And I'm spending a

930
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 2: lot of time helping out people in the States, whether

931
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,480
Speaker 2: it's state ags and others do their part to fix it.

932
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: Robi Choprah, Like I said, I feel smarter about it.

933
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: And that's what I was hoping my listeners would get

934
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: out of this and viewers and just understand day and that,

935
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think one of the mistakes

936
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: that journalism has made is not enough consumer fronting investigations.

937
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: There's too many investigations that are about getting famous people

938
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: in you know, attention, rather than like, you know, just

939
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: helping people save money or not get ripped off. And

940
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 1: whether you're in government or you're in media, if you're

941
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 1: focused on consumer protection, that's how you're in trust. You're here,

942
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 1: all right, my friend, I appreciate the time.

943
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:33,439
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.