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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 4: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Doing really well? Super busy here? How about you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I've been busy myself.

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Speaker 2: Now my understanding is, is your other podcast tenfold more Wicked?

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Speaker 3: Is what halfway through at season?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're in the middle of season eight.

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 1: And why no? It feels like I can't even believe

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Speaker 1: I'm in awe that I even did one season of

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Speaker 1: that show, let alone eight seasons. It's been quite a track.

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Speaker 1: And you pomp up in a couple of my seasons.

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Speaker 1: I use you, of course as a forensic expert. So

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed you several times for that show, that's right,

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Speaker 1: And this season is about a serial poisoner. Maybe okay,

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Speaker 1: she may be a poisoner. We're not really sure. You

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Speaker 1: have to find out to the end. But we're about

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Speaker 1: halfway through and this takes place in nineteen ten New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: which you can imagine is just one big party. That

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Speaker 1: time period in New Orleans is amazing. So we've got

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Speaker 1: a lot of great jazz music, and we've got a

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Speaker 1: woman who is very, very, very suspicion and more and

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Speaker 1: more family members show up dead in her family, and

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Speaker 1: she has a lot of problems within her family. So

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Speaker 1: it's been quite a roller coaster of a story for

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Speaker 1: listeners so far.

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Speaker 2: Well, I imagine, like with New Orleans, I mean you

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Speaker 2: also have the witch doctors down there at that time.

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Speaker 1: Right, I'm looking for a really good witch doctor story.

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Speaker 1: I'm ready. I'd love to do a voodoo story sometimes

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Speaker 1: I just haven't gotten a hold of one yet. I

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Speaker 1: bet I'll get some responses after this pitch.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, so any of our listeners who don't already listen

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Speaker 1: to tenfold more Wicket, this is a great time to

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Speaker 1: pop over and do some binge listening, and then of

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Speaker 1: course we'll have a third season after that. That's the

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Speaker 1: way we work. We work in batches of three. So

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Speaker 1: we're halfway through our three seasons. We're halfway through the season,

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Speaker 1: so it's very exciting.

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Speaker 2: That's that's cool. I don't know how you juggle all

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Speaker 2: these podcasts me either.

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Speaker 1: I have no witchcraft. I think, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: Caffeine, Yeah, I definitely live off the caffeine for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's switch over to this story, which is set

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina, which is where I've always wanted to

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Speaker 1: go visit. Have you been to South Carolina? I know

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Speaker 1: I ask you this with every story, but I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in knowing where you have traveled to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I actually drove for my show that

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Speaker 2: I had on Oxygen, the DNA of Murder. I did

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Speaker 2: a case out in Atlanta and then drove from Atlanta

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Speaker 2: up to South Carolina. It was interesting because that's really

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Speaker 2: the first time I had experienced that part of the

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Speaker 2: country and all the vegetation that's out there and the humidity,

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Speaker 2: so the blasted humidity.

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Speaker 1: What are we going to call that kind of travel?

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Speaker 1: Is that like forensic travel where you don't talk about

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Speaker 1: the food and you don't talk about the music, but

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Speaker 1: you talk about the crime scene conditions of the environment.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: That's really how I know, you know, like my old jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: when I go out to the Bay Area, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not looking at the touristy spots. I'm going, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I did a homicide there. I responded out to that

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Speaker 2: case there. And now when I go to a state,

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Speaker 2: you bring up a state, I go, I was in

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Speaker 2: that state because of this case.

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Speaker 3: That's how I just associate, you know, my travels.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite places to visit is northern California,

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Speaker 1: and I would go to this place called the Pelican Inn.

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Speaker 1: Probably some people have been there before. It's like a

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Speaker 1: British tavern and you have to get down there in

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Speaker 1: a really windy road. Every time I drive that road,

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Speaker 1: I think, God, what a great place to dump a body.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you will never find somebody if you do that,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's a terrible thing, and so usually

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Speaker 1: so do the people in the car I'm with.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's you know, I mean, that's just the reality.

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Speaker 2: It's just like within my county contra Costa County. There

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Speaker 2: are particular roads in which we would have you know,

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Speaker 2: bodies being dumped over the years, and it's because they

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Speaker 2: were remote.

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Speaker 3: There was a.

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Speaker 2: Steep usually you know, steep side down into a creek

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Speaker 2: and somebody could go out there, pull a body out,

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Speaker 2: and the body would just disappear down the slope and

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Speaker 2: then they would drive off. Nobody would ever see them,

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Speaker 2: and then years later, you know, it's typically you know,

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Speaker 2: back in the seventies, it was the bottle collectors that

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Speaker 2: would find bodies.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, Now it's a lot of hikers.

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Speaker 1: We get a lot of hikers who find by swimmers

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Speaker 1: and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we get the hikers out in the

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Speaker 2: trails up in the hills finding the like skeleton remains.

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Speaker 2: But the creek beds, you know, that's where all these

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Speaker 2: old antique bottles have been buried in the silt forever.

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Speaker 2: So these bottle collectors would be out there and they

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Speaker 2: would be the ones that would find these bodies that

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Speaker 2: would be down in the creek or near the creeks.

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Speaker 1: I can think of five cases I've written about where

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Speaker 1: kids were the ones who found the bodies or the

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Speaker 1: big clues because they're just out there dinking around, you know,

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Speaker 1: playing around, and all of a sudden they run into

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Speaker 1: this terrible thing. So yes, we should do some sort

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Speaker 1: of gruesome tourist travel thing where I think this would

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Speaker 1: be a great place to cover up a murder. And

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Speaker 1: you would say yes, And here's why. Sure, Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: get into this story. Let's set the scene. So this

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Speaker 1: is as I mentioned, South Carolina, nineteen sixty one, South Carolina,

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Speaker 1: and this victim just is an average Joe, it seems

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Speaker 1: like from the very beginning, just an average guy. He's

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Speaker 1: sixty three year old cab driver, John Horner, and he

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Speaker 1: was a World War One and World War two vet.

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Speaker 1: And they used to call him Yankee John because he's

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina, so they called him Yankee John. And

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Speaker 1: he was a cab driver. He was just out and

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Speaker 1: about and we know that no matter what the time

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Speaker 1: period was. Don't you believe that cab drivers have a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of vulnerability like real estate agents do, Like

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Speaker 1: a lot of people do who are in those kinds

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Speaker 1: of jobs. You're on your own and you're encountering the

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Speaker 1: public well.

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Speaker 2: And that's really the primary characteristic, is that isolation. When

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Speaker 2: offenders are looking at committing crimes. They are looking for

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Speaker 2: victims that are isolated, and when they have a business

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Speaker 2: reason to interact with that victim, such as hailing a cab,

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Speaker 2: it makes it so much easier because there isn't any

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Speaker 2: suspicion there. And then like with a cab driver, the

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Speaker 2: danger is is that you get somebody sliding into the

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Speaker 2: back seat. Next thing you know, you've got a gun

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Speaker 2: put to your head and there's nothing you can do.

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Speaker 1: Funny, you should mention that because that's where we're heading. Okay,

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Speaker 1: John Orner is driving and he gets a dispatch call

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Speaker 1: and they've told him to go make a pickup at

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Speaker 1: the NCO Club at Fort Jackson in Colombia. So this

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Speaker 1: is really his bread and butter. He had an awful

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Speaker 1: lot of soldiers as clients at Fort Jackson and so

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Speaker 1: this would have not been surprising at all. This would

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Speaker 1: have been a very typical fair for him. But it

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Speaker 1: was late, like I said, eleven fifteen, and he decided

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Speaker 1: he wanted to just go home instead, so he headed

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Speaker 1: home to his wife. But when he went off duty,

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Speaker 1: so the last time the dispatcher heard from him eleven

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Speaker 1: forty five pm. That was it. That was the last

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Speaker 1: time anyone saw him alive. And like I said, he

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Speaker 1: turned down this call and he decided to head home

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Speaker 1: to his wife. It's nineteen sixty one. He probably didn't

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Speaker 1: call her from anywhere. I think he just was heading home.

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Speaker 1: This was something that I think surprised his wife when

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Speaker 1: he didn't show up at home and the alarm was

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Speaker 1: sounded at seven point thirty the next morning because his

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven Chevy cab was found abandoned in downtown Columbia,

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Speaker 1: so in the city where he worked, and there was

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of blood inside the vehicle. But Warner

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Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's obviously not a good sign. You know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you know, you're talking about the amount of blood

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Speaker 2: inside this vehicle. There are times when maybe somebody, you know,

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Speaker 2: they have an injury as a result of a fight

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Speaker 2: with an offender, maybe they're abducted or not. You don't

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Speaker 2: know if they're alive or dead. However, when you have

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Speaker 2: a vehicle that hasn't, say, a very very large blood

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Speaker 2: pool in there, then you're going, Okay, this person died

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Speaker 2: was in there for you know, a period of time

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Speaker 2: enough for the blood to pool and then for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: their body has been removed to a different location. I

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Speaker 2: would even suspect just off not knowing any more details.

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Speaker 2: The reason why there's let's say a large amount of

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Speaker 2: blood inside this vehicle is that the offender possibly commandeered

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Speaker 2: this cab after killing John and then drove to a

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Speaker 2: location before banning the cab. And now John's bleeding out

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Speaker 2: inside the cab, and then for whatever reason, now his

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Speaker 2: body has been taken out of it.

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Speaker 1: And this is really interesting because we're in a cab.

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Speaker 1: You can tell how far he's gone, and dispatches noted

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Speaker 1: how many miles are on his car, and so this

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Speaker 1: is a little confusing to me. So hopefully you can

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Speaker 1: untangle what happens next. Two days, they're looking for this

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Speaker 1: man who has lost a large amount of blood and

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Speaker 1: they're presuming is dead. They're assuming the killer took him somewhere.

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Speaker 1: As you said, we don't know why, we don't know where.

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Speaker 1: So two days after the car was found, which is

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Speaker 1: about four days after he disappeared, his body was found

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Speaker 1: dumped on the side of Highway six oh one, which

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Speaker 1: is about twenty five mins from Columbia. He's face down

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Speaker 1: on an embankment, and he's been shot by a gunshot

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Speaker 1: wound to the head, and the police say that it

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Speaker 1: looks like whomever was sitting in the back seat of

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Speaker 1: his cab fired from behind and they gathered three bullet

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Speaker 1: fragments from his head.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so the autopsy must have shown a back to

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Speaker 2: front trajectory of the bullet. So you have a customer

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Speaker 2: sliding into the back seat and then literally just shoots

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Speaker 2: him in the back of the head.

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Speaker 3: Yep, John was done for the night. He refused the

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Speaker 3: one fair.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm wondering if in route home someone flagged

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Speaker 2: him down and him, just being a nice guy, was like, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: I guess I can go ahead and just accept this one.

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Speaker 2: But he doesn't call it in. Nope, that becomes interesting

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Speaker 2: to me. Why doesn't he call it in? Is this

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Speaker 2: something he normally would do on the side, or is

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Speaker 2: it was just this the one off? You know, he

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Speaker 2: sees a guy and he goes, well, I'll just go ahead.

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Speaker 2: I'm a cab driver. I might as well get this

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Speaker 2: guy wherever he needs to go.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's some more confusing details to me. So his

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Speaker 1: vehicle's found in Colombia, his body is found twenty five

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Speaker 1: miles away in a remote area, and I'll show you

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Speaker 1: a photo in a second. There is seventeen dollars and

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Speaker 1: fifty five cents on the meter. And what the dispatcher

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Speaker 1: says is that means that his cab had been driven

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Speaker 1: somewhere around eighty miles after that last trip that he

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Speaker 1: had registered with the Dispatch. So this mystery trip was

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Speaker 1: somewhere around eighty miles. But the car was abandoned in

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Speaker 1: downtown Columbia. So does that mean he was killed in

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Speaker 1: the cab somewhere dumped twenty five miles away, and then

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Speaker 1: this person drove another fifty something miles.

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Speaker 2: Well, the sequence right now is probably unclear in terms

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Speaker 2: of was he killed early on in the confrontation, was

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Speaker 2: he to drive to various locations and then killed It

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Speaker 2: dawns on me in nineteen sixty one, customers aren't paying

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Speaker 2: with credit cards, then they're paying with cash, right, So

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Speaker 2: I would imagine Dispatch would have an idea on the

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Speaker 2: amount of money that would have been inside this cab.

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Speaker 2: And now I'm looking, okay, is there a financial motive?

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Speaker 2: Did they determine how much money was either left behind

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Speaker 2: or taken by the offender.

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Speaker 1: You're batting one thousand so far, Paul, because you said

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Speaker 1: back in ahead, which you were right. So he was

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Speaker 1: missing about twenty five dollars, which is the only amount

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Speaker 1: that he was known to have on him. Police are

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Speaker 1: assuming he carried that around to be able to make change.

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Speaker 1: You're right, they're not using a credit card or check

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Speaker 1: or anything. This is going to be purely cash. Most

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Speaker 1: likely his pockets had been turned out and he was

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Speaker 1: missing that money. So it does seem right now that

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Speaker 1: robbery was a motive.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that makes sense now the distance that the

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Speaker 2: cab has been driven doesn't if this is strictly a

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Speaker 2: robbery where his body's at twenty five miles out, and

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Speaker 2: then the amount of miles on the cab. I'm almost

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Speaker 2: wondering if the offender utilized the cab because of the

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Speaker 2: type of vehicle it was. It looks like a cab

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Speaker 2: and may have given the offender sort of a you know,

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Speaker 2: a wolf in sheep's clothing could blend into wherever or

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Speaker 2: whatever the offender was trying to do. But also decided

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Speaker 2: to take John's twenty five dollars while he had access

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're thinking maybe not just robbery as a motive,

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Speaker 1: that something else might have been going on around there.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, with the amount of miles driven, you know, here,

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Speaker 2: you've got a cab that you know, I don't know

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Speaker 2: how they would have communicated if it had been stolen,

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Speaker 2: but it's at risk for the offender to stay in

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Speaker 2: that cab for a long period of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so he did it for a reason, You're right, yes,

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Speaker 1: And what I'm confused about is I'm showing you a

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Speaker 1: photo right now of where his body was found, not

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Speaker 1: the cab. Big difference between downtown Columbia, South Carolina, and

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Speaker 1: twenty five miles away in a rural area. And I

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Speaker 1: was just trying to figure out, why drive him all

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Speaker 1: that way? Why not just dump him in a gutter

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Speaker 1: in the city somewhere. It just doesn't make any sense

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: That's assuming that the offender drove specifically out to this

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Speaker 2: location to dispose of his body. It's possible that whatever

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Speaker 2: the offender was doing and utilizing the cab for may

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Speaker 2: have taken them out at this location and then realize, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is nice isolated, nobody's on the road.

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Speaker 3: I can get rid of the body. Before going back

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Speaker 3: into town drug deal?

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Speaker 1: Maybe was this a drug dealer or somebody who's doing

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Speaker 1: other business in a cab and needs this cab and

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Speaker 1: just like you said, it's a robbery and dumps the

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Speaker 1: body on his way to do other errands.

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Speaker 2: You know, I want to eliminate that as a possibility,

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Speaker 2: but I also I'm just not familiar enough with the

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Speaker 2: predominant crimes going on in the area at the time.

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Speaker 3: Is there something else going on?

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Speaker 2: Maybe there was some scam this guy was pulling and

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Speaker 2: needed a vehicle that looked like a cab. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: right at this point, I think everything's on the table

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Speaker 2: in terms of.

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Speaker 3: The overall motive, but we know that.

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Speaker 2: The offender took advantage of the financial aspect.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Let's talk about the forensics, and specifically about the gun.

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Speaker 1: As we've talked about a lot. I'm clueless about guns.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I know what a revolver looked like,

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Speaker 1: So let me show you the gun. It's a Harrington

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Speaker 1: and Richardson H and R is what they called it,

307
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 1: revolver that had thirty two caliber bullets inside. I don't

308
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,240
Speaker 1: know if this makes a difference. I know you always

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Speaker 1: like photos, but let me show you a picture of

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Speaker 1: the gun, if it's at all helpful. I'm guessing this

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Speaker 1: is sort of just your standard anybody could have picked

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Speaker 1: it up type of gun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is a typical you know, H

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Speaker 2: and R is not a firearm that we see much

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00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 2: of today. You know, our firearms examiners in the lab,

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Speaker 2: I remember them. You know, they would talk about the

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00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 2: H and rs, so we would have them in gun collections.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't a gun that was being used frequently

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Speaker 2: in shootings in my jurisdiction from the nineteen seventies on,

320
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Speaker 2: you know, from prior to the nineteen seventies. I don't know,

321
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Speaker 2: but this is a What I'm looking at is a

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Speaker 2: standard revolver, short barrel revolver thirty two. You know, it's

323
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Speaker 2: a smaller caliber, but as I've discussed before, I've seen

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Speaker 2: homicides committed with all the standard calibers of handguns. So

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Speaker 2: it is it is a lethal weapon, even though it's

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Speaker 2: a smaller caliber.

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Speaker 1: When we start talking about suspects, he utilizes Fort Jackson

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Speaker 1: often to find his fars, and so you're talking about

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Speaker 1: a lot of soldiers who could have come back, and

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Speaker 1: you know they obviously all know how to use guns.

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Speaker 1: Is this just a very easy This is a single shot, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not automatic in any way? Do you have to

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Speaker 1: cock it every time you want to shoot?

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Speaker 2: So the revolver, it has an exposed hammer, so you

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00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,880
Speaker 2: can cock the hammer back and pull the trigger to

336
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Speaker 2: fire it. But revolvers are also designed that the trigger

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00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 2: pull is double action, so when you pulled the trigger back,

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00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 2: it itself cocks the hammer and rotates a live round

339
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Speaker 2: in the cylinder underneath where the hammer's going to drop.

340
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Speaker 2: So that's part of the advance of a revolver over

341
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Speaker 2: the old muskets that you'd have to load, you know,

342
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 2: around in yourself. Revolvers evolve to kind of automate the process,

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Speaker 2: and then the next evolution, of course, are your semi

344
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Speaker 2: automatic pistols. But in this case here to fire that shot,

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Speaker 2: the offender could have cocked the hammer back, but then

346
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Speaker 2: would have had to pull the trigger, or could have

347
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Speaker 2: just pulled the trigger without pulling the hammer back, and

348
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: then just pulling the trigger would fire the round as well.

349
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Speaker 1: So does this gun to you say anything about the offender?

350
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040
Speaker 2: No, not on the surface, not without doing a much

351
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 2: deeper dive in terms of the rarity of this weapon,

352
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,560
Speaker 2: which right now I'm not suspecting that it is anything unusual,

353
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Speaker 2: but maybe you might tell me something more down the road.

354
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Speaker 1: We'll have to see, I guess. So the mystery here,

355
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Speaker 1: just to wrap this up, is that you have this man,

356
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Speaker 1: John Orner, who has picked up a mystery fair. He

357
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: is dead. His body's one place twenty five miles away

358
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Speaker 1: from where his car was found, tremendous amount of blood loss,

359
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,919
Speaker 1: so it seems like it happened in the cab. And

360
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Speaker 1: then we don't have anyone who has spotted anything. There's

361
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 1: of course no CCTV. There's no cameras in these cabs.

362
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's no even divider in the cab like

363
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Speaker 1: they might have. Now that's kind of somewhat of a

364
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,880
Speaker 1: security option here. So this is you're right, somebody who's very,

365
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 1: very vulnerable, and now we literally have no suspects at

366
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Speaker 1: the beginning of this investigation, right, you know.

367
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Speaker 2: And just to bring up another very very well known case,

368
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Speaker 2: the Zodiac case. His last homicide, Paul Stein was a

369
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Speaker 2: cab driver, and this is the exact scenario. You know,

370
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Speaker 2: Zodiac is likely in the back seat. You know, he

371
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Speaker 2: reaches over, probably grabs him a little bit and shoots

372
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Speaker 2: him in the head, but he doesn't drive off in

373
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Speaker 2: the cab or try to dispose of Stein's body.

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Speaker 3: He leaves the cab there.

375
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Speaker 2: But this just underscores this is the danger of being

376
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Speaker 2: in this type of service.

377
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Speaker 1: So we're going to fast forward to about three weeks

378
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 1: after his body was found. This is again at night,

379
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock at night on March twenty ninth, in nineteen

380
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: sixty one, there's a highway patrolman who has spotted a

381
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,639
Speaker 1: man hitchhiking in Newport, Tennessee, which is illegal. I did

382
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: not know that even ever hitchhiked before. I'm assuming, have you, No,

383
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 1: I even as a kid now, even as a kid,

384
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Speaker 1: I mean, we know how old you are, so I've

385
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:42,120
Speaker 1: done it as a kid.

386
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,119
Speaker 2: No, I tell you I did not hitchhike, but I

387
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 2: had retrospect, knowing what I know now. I had a

388
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 2: very scary situation happened to me. I was out at

389
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 2: a mall in Fairfield, Salono mall, and I was living

390
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 2: in Vacaball at the time, and decided, wh I'm just

391
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,679
Speaker 2: going to walk home and along and isolated stretch in

392
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 2: between Fairfield and Vacaville, a man driving a typical serial

393
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 2: killer van pulled over and asked me if I needed

394
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: a ride, And probably one of the smartest decisions I

395
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: made was nope, I'm enjoying the walk and I just

396
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 2: kept going. But in retrospect, it's like, why is he

397
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: pulling over to, you know, pick up a teenage boy. Well,

398
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 2: he probably is a very dangerous individual.

399
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: That sounds terrifying to me. This is a man who's hitchhiking,

400
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: and this again is Newport, Tennessee. And the officer tells

401
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: this guy, you know, come over here. I need to

402
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: talk to you. And the officer says his intention was

403
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 1: to arrest this man for hitchhiking, so he pats him down,

404
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: and later on this is going to be a little

405
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: bit of a technical point here in that the man

406
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 1: who's being padded down has said this is an unlawful search,

407
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: and the officer said, listen, I was going to arrest him.

408
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 1: It's typical for us to had him down to look

409
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 1: for weapons. And the person here, the hitchhiker here, says no,

410
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 1: this was not right. He could have just put me

411
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: in this cap. What is the nuances here are I

412
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: know there must be you're shaking your head.

413
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: As long as it's not just a If the officer

414
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 2: had determined that the hitchhiker had committed a misdemeanor in

415
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: his presence and made the decision to arrest, then incident

416
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: to arrest, there can be a search of that person

417
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: for officer safety. And this is also where contraband is

418
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 2: often discovered. You know, whether you have weapons that are

419
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 2: hidden on the person, or you have back in the

420
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: day the bag he's a dope which would have been

421
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: a big deal, or other illegal objects. But that is

422
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 2: a standard practice. That is, there's so many examples of

423
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: officers who have failed to thoroughly search an arrestee to

424
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: have that arrest he pull a gun later on or

425
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: do something else. It can cost the officer his life

426
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 2: or somebody else their life if they failed to do

427
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 2: an adequate search.

428
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,719
Speaker 1: Well, this officer did, and this officer found a thirty

429
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 1: two caliber H and R revolver, just like the one

430
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 1: that killed John Orner, and the hitchhiker's name was Edward Freiberger.

431
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 1: What do you think about this? Just from the onset?

432
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so the patrol officer likely has no idea about

433
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,199
Speaker 2: evidence in John Orner's homicide. He is going through his

434
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: routine stop search. I've recovered a firearm. Now this guy,

435
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: imagine it's illegal for this guy in South Carolina nineteen

436
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 2: sixty one to have a possess a firearm, probably concealed,

437
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: and so now there's another criminal charge that is being

438
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: put on the booking sheet.

439
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 1: Yep.

440
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: And that gun is being booked and submitted as evidence

441
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: subsequent to arrest. So at some point somebody within the

442
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: agency or you know, in sixty one, the lab likely

443
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 2: not is going hold on, we've got a case involving

444
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 2: that very make and model of revolver.

445
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: Here's how they make the connection. He was arrested for

446
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: carrying arms, so you're right, this was illegal. His gun

447
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: was confiscated, he was taken to jail. They asked Freiburger,

448
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: Edward Freiberger, about himself. He was eighteen years old in

449
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one and he was a private stationed at

450
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 1: Fort Jackson in Columbia, South Carolina. They start researching him.

451
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 1: He has gone a wall several times. Marked absent is

452
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: what they say, which I'm I'm sure that's a very

453
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: nice way of saying gone a wall. He's gone a

454
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: wall three times in March of nineteen sixty one, so

455
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: he sort of vanished. The dates are March first, March sixteenth,

456
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: and the twenty second of March. March first was the

457
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: day that Orner's body was found. Okay, this doesn't look

458
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: very good.

459
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: No, and now Freiburger is repeatedly going out off the

460
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: fort and he found by law enforcement hitchhiking. I start

461
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 2: to suspect that Freiburger may be committing multiple crimes. Do

462
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: we have other homicides related to to John's case at

463
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: this point or that's the lone homicide that we know of.

464
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: He doesn't have much of a record. I'll tell you

465
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: the record that he does have. Freiburger was finally on

466
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: his last a wall, which is how they caught him.

467
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: He was going home to Indiana. He had had enough

468
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: of the army, and because he had disappeared several times before,

469
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: he had actually done a stint at Fort Leavenworth, which

470
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: is a military correctional facility in Kansas, for going absent

471
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: without leave. So that is his whole record though, no

472
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: violent crime, no murder, no robbery, no nothing. And I

473
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: know what you're going to say is that that doesn't

474
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: mean anything, but it does mean something that there's nothing

475
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: else in his record except saying, yeah, I'm not doing

476
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: this anymore with the army.

477
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: Right Well, you know John's homicide, I think speaks volumes.

478
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: John's on his way home and somehow picks up up

479
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: a customer who is armed with a thirty two caliber

480
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: H and R Revolver and gets shot in the back

481
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: of the head. The mo utilized by the offender in

482
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 2: John's case is matching what the patrol officer is seeing

483
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: Freiburger do, and so I'm wondering was Freiburger out there,

484
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: not necessarily to commit another homicide, though that's possible, but

485
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: possibly to maybe get some more money, even though he's saying, well,

486
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: I'm on the way home and I'm done with the army.

487
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: Well, that is just a story.

488
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 2: You know, he may be taking advantage of somebody who

489
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: is willing to stop the car and then he's going

490
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: to rob him.

491
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: So we think that maybe Freiberger was hitchhiking or something

492
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: flagged him down and that's what happened.

493
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm thinking, assuming you haven't told me, if

494
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: this thirty two H and R Revolver, I don't think

495
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 2: you've told me it has matched the evidence from John's homicide.

496
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: Yet, well, there is the twist. Oh, it is very complicated.

497
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: It becomes complicated, and then I really need your help

498
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: because you know, I am not ballistic savvy at all.

499
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: That's where things get complicated, and that's where I need

500
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: you to put your ballistics thinking cap on.

501
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: Ok.

502
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: Just from the beginning, Freiburger has an alibi, which is

503
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: a fellow soldier at Fort Jackson on the night that

504
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: Werner was murdered. He went a wall the next day.

505
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: But there's a soldier and I don't know, Marin. Our

506
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: researcher couldn't find a lot of details, and I followed

507
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: up and couldn't find a ton of details about this

508
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: alibi either. But we have a soldier who says this

509
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: guy was with me, you know, up until we all

510
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: went to bed. It seems squishy enough for the district

511
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: attorney in Columbia, South Carolina to say, I don't know,

512
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: we need to keep investigating this guy. It's too much

513
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: of a coincidence. That being said, A thirty two is

514
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: a common gun, right.

515
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: Well, in this day and age, it's not. It's not

516
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: a caliber that is seen frequently in crime. Though again

517
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: I have had cases involving a thirty two, but in

518
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty one, I don't know. It's a completely different

519
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: era in terms of gun violence here in the United States,

520
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: So I don't know what was being commonly used to

521
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 2: commit this type of crime.

522
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you suppose, though, that the army is not using

523
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: a thirty two revolver? Doesn't he have access to other

524
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: guns that he probably is assuming won't be traced well?

525
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: Most yeah, most early.

526
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: The military weaponry is very different, and I'm not familiar

527
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: with anybody that's going to be issuing something like an

528
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: H and R thirty two revolver to military It maybe

529
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 2: it's a secondary weapon, you know, an ankle gun in

530
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: case you have to resort to a hidden weapon because

531
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: your primary weapons are no longer operational. But it would

532
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: be more of the military issued weapons. What was the

533
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: everyday access to those? How frequently are they audited? Were

534
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: they something that would really stand out if they had

535
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: been used to commit a homicide.

536
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 3: Or a shooting?

537
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: You know, so there may be a reason to use

538
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: a private weapon versus something that was issued to you.

539
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: You're right, two things that are not in Freiberger's favor.

540
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: One is that they found out that he was staying

541
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: at a hotel in close proximity to the vehicle, So

542
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: a little circumstantial evidence it shows that he was nearby

543
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: where this vehicle was. And the other thing was that

544
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: it looks like he went to a pawn shop in

545
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: downtown Columbia the day of the murder and bought this

546
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: thirty two caliber H and R Revolver. Coincidence, I think not.

547
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Coincidence has happened.

548
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: Well, that's you know, That's really the point I want

549
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: to make is these are circumstances, and you know, circumstances,

550
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: of course, are very significant to pay attention to. But fundamentally,

551
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: in this case, there is firearms evidence that was recovered

552
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: from John's head or from the cab. Was it a

553
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: through and through shot?

554
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Did you indicate that it's said that they found fragments

555
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: within his body in his head.

556
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: So no, okay.

557
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: So at autopsy they recover these fragments, and assuming that

558
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: some of these fragments were intact enough, a microscopic exam

559
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: could be done to look at the marks that the

560
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: barrel left on these bullet fragments and compare them to

561
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: a test fire from Freiberger's own gun to see if

562
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: it matches the homicide evidence.

563
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 3: And that's what I'm waiting to hear.

564
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: Okay did that, and then now it's not just a

565
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: circumstantial case. Now there's a physical evidence aspect to the case.

566
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the procedure, because I'm not sure

567
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: we've actually really explored the procedure about how you would

568
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 1: take a gun and get those same marks and then

569
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: come pair the suspect's gun to the fragments that were

570
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: found within the victim. Let me tell you what my guy,

571
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: Oscar Heinrich would have done. So I actually pulled this

572
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: from American Sherlock because it reminded me so much of this.

573
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: This was a case about a man who had been

574
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: suspected of shooting and killing his former boss, and this

575
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: guy's name was Martin Colwell, So I wrote, Oscar pointed

576
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: Colwell's gun, the thirty eight revolver that likely killed McCarthy,

577
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: at a barrel of paraffin wax, and fired into it.

578
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: Once a bullet exploded from the gun embedding into the wax.

579
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: Oscar waited, and soon he carefully cut it from the

580
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: thick material and soaked it in gasoline to dissolve the paraffin. Now,

581
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: the bullet found in this man's coat would show the

582
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: gun's unique markings. So these are rifling marks that we're

583
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: talking about. Right, seems like an odd way of doing it,

584
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: but I think that was probably pretty standard for ballistics

585
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, right, you.

586
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: Know, and I have heard of the paraffin method to

587
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: capture test fires out of bullets.

588
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: But in this day and age, we just use water.

589
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: So you shoot into water.

590
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: We shoot into water.

591
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: So you know, at my lab we had a very

592
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: very old vertical water tank outside. It is literally just

593
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: a custom built vertical pipe that the firearms examiners would

594
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: take the guns, load them with ammunition, and shoot straight

595
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: down into the water. The water slows the bullets down

596
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: very rapidly, and then the bullets just settle down into

597
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: a cup and it's just like getting water out of

598
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: a well. That cup is attached to a rope and

599
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: you pull it up and now you've got the test

600
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: fires of the bullets that would have the rifling marks.

601
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 2: And then the rifling is the class characteristics of the barrel.

602
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: You know, It's like the tread pattern of a shoe.

603
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: Many many, many guns the same make and model will

604
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: have the same rifling marks, but during the manufacturing process

605
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: and then subsequent use of the gun, you get other

606
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: random marks inside the barrel that transfer onto the bullet.

607
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: This is what a firearms examiner can use to say

608
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: this bullet was fired from this gun. So now you

609
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: have the test fires, whether you've collected it from paraffin

610
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: or ballistic gel or even the water tanks, and you

611
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: mount that up on a microscope. This is your standard

612
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: from the evidence gun. And then you take the bullets

613
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: recovered from the body, or the bullet fragments in John's case,

614
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: mount that on a microscope, and now you line up

615
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: and look to see where do I have these matching

616
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: straya because if you imagine this bullet is going down

617
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: the barrel, if you have let's say just a burr

618
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: on the inside of a barrel, and this is just

619
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: really trying to simplify things, and that bullet passes by

620
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: that burr sticking out of the side of the barrel,

621
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: there's going to be a scrape, right well, when you

622
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: have thousands of these random burrs inside the barrel. In essence,

623
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: you get almost like a barcode looking type of a

624
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: series of scrapes which are called the straya, and that's

625
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: what the examiner. The examiner is looking at the rifling.

626
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: Does the rifling match up the class characteristics, and then

627
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: they will go down into these individualizing characteristics the straya.

628
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: And this day and age it was very different than

629
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: sixty one. There's now standards in terms of how much

630
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: of the straia have to match in order for an

631
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: examiner to say, yes, this firearm fired this bullet. So

632
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: that is how they would have done it back then.

633
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: They would have taken Freiberger's thirty two h and R revolver,

634
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: fired it into water or paraffin ballistic jael something that

635
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: preserves that test fired bullet, and then do this microscopic

636
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: comparison on a comparison microscope.

637
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: Well, all that sounds very valid to me, and unfortunately,

638
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty one it did not work initially in

639
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: this case. One thing I am going to tell you

640
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: that I'm sure we'll make you very happy, is this

641
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: is a case that spanned forty years. Because of this evidence,

642
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: some bullet fragments recovered from John Orner's head has stretched

643
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: this case out over forty years. Huh okay, The fragments

644
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: were inconclusive. They could not make a match with the

645
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 1: thirty two that was found on Edward Freiberger. To make

646
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: things more complicated, there's a tip where the police go

647
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: to a house that was owned by an elderly man

648
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: named Alonso Dreyer, and Dreyer has a gun that is

649
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: also a thirty two caliber H and R Revolver. Now

650
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: how they make this connection and they go to Dreyer,

651
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: I don't know other than a tip, but the police

652
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: are pretty convinced that this gun might also be a

653
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: gun that potentially was used in this case instead of

654
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: Freiberger's gun. Alonzo Dreyer was this elderly man. I seriously

655
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: doubt he pulled off this crime, but upon interviewing people

656
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 1: who knew him and who were in and out of

657
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,240
Speaker 1: the house, there were an awful lot of sketchy people

658
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: coming in and out of this house. He says, I

659
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: don't think anybody took my gun and did anything with it,

660
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: but a number of known thieves and robbers, including members

661
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: of his own family, had come in and out of

662
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: this house, and it was enough evidence for them to

663
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: test it, and there was an expert that said that

664
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: it is very likely that this is actually the gun,

665
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: that it is not Freiberger's gun, and they were so

666
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: certain the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division SLED, because I

667
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: don't want to keep saying it over and over again,

668
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: we'll call it SLED. SLED was so certain that they

669
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: wrote a letter to Herbert Hoover, who was the FBI director,

670
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: that said, we think that this is the gun. It

671
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 1: is very possible this is the gun. And this throws

672
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: a wrench into the potential execution of Freiburger because now

673
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: you have two guns, and you have dueling experts.

674
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, you know, that's a major hurdle that the prosecution,

675
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: if they truly believe Freiburger is responsible for John's homicide,

676
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: now they have a massive problem on their hands from

677
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: a physical evidence standpoint, because if that is presented in

678
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: front of you know, twelve jurors and they go hold on,

679
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: you know, the murder weapon is likely out of this

680
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: other guy's house, you know, not the one that Freiberger had.

681
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 3: I mean, they could be facing an acquittal.

682
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: Now we've only talked about the firearms evidence. You know,

683
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: Freiburger's gun and this other gun could be evaluated. This

684
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: is a short range shot into the back of John's head.

685
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: I don't know what the distance is, but I imagine it's

686
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: either going to be contact near contact with that range shot.

687
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: There's you know, one of the things that happens that

688
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: people don't recognize is that the power of a close

689
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: range shot to the head with all those gases can

690
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: fragment hair. So you get these hair fragments that can

691
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: eventually be deposited onto the gun itself. And then you

692
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: can also if the range is close enough, is you

693
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: get back spatter out of that entry wound of blood

694
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 2: and or brain matter onto the gun, onto the shooter's hands, etc. So, now,

695
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: of course I'm wondering did they look for that type

696
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: of evidence back in nineteen sixty one. It would not

697
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: have been something that was esoteric back then. Is there

698
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: blood spatter on this gun?

699
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: If they did, they didn't report it, they didn't find it.

700
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: If they did, and that's a big if. So Heinrich's

701
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: time is in the twenties, and of course they're testing

702
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: for blood even then. But you're right, I mean, you

703
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: have to have that mindset of saying, we know the

704
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: physics of firing a gun behind someone's head, that there'll

705
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: be that backsplash and we'll go into the barrel of

706
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: the gun wherever. All I can tell you is this,

707
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: we have a bunch of experts, including a renowned army

708
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: firearms examiner who also said it's inconclusive. You cannot tie

709
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: Freiberger's gun to this particular crime. So we have an

710
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: array of people who are saying inconclusive, inconclusive, it's likely

711
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: to be this other gun, and they cannot link any

712
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: firearm to John Orner's nineteen sixty one homicide, and the

713
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: case goes cold.

714
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: Okay, so again, now we're still focusing in on the

715
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: firearms related evidence, right.

716
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: That's the only evidence they have. I know, you're so funny.

717
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: I think if you keep asking me, you're gonna want

718
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go, oh yeah, I forgot it. No, they

719
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: don't have it. There's no fingerprints.

720
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: You know, the cab is a crime sceat. It's her

721
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: process that cab as a crime scene. You're trying to

722
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: find associative evidence that the offender has left behind. Of course,

723
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 2: fingerprints are huge, but also trace evidence, and then the

724
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: offender is taking evidence on their person. With them, maybe unknowingly,

725
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: such as, not only is the gun in the shooter's

726
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 2: hand potentially going to have this backspatter from that entry

727
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: wound to the back of John's head, but also the

728
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: clothing could potentially have it is a sleeve, you know.

729
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: So there's so much that, at least within modern CSI work,

730
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: that would be looked for to try to determine whether

731
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: or not Freiburger was responsible or not. The firearms evidence,

732
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: if he's got the murder weapon, if that was linked,

733
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: of course that's huge. But if it's inconclusive, which we

734
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: deal with that today, okay, but you know the victim's

735
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: blood or brain matter was found on the shooter's right sleeve,

736
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 2: then that's compelling evidence too.

737
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: They got nothing, no fingerprints, nothing, It's this gun and

738
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: that's it. But I'll tell you and I get excited

739
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: about forensic evidence that's been preserved. So did Richland County,

740
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: which is Columbia South Carolina County. In ninety seven, so

741
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 1: this is thirty six years after John Orner's murder, they

742
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: launched a cold case unit. Took three more years for

743
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: them to reopen this case. That's what I mean. This

744
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: is decades long this goes on and on and on,

745
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: so there were problems. There's pluses and minuses which I

746
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: know I could probably even hint at and you'll say, yes,

747
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: the pluses and minuses are the original detectives and the

748
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: witnesses and even Freiberger's alibi have all died. Sure, because

749
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: it's at thirty five, you know, year span, thirty six

750
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: year span. The plus side is technology has gotten obviously

751
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: much better with forensics and with ballistics, so they have

752
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: preserved the three bullet fragments and both guns, the Dreyer

753
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: gun who was the old man, and the Freiburger gun.

754
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: I assume Dreyer's probably not around anymore, mister Dreyer, but

755
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: Freiburger is. So investigators focus on these fragments. And there's

756
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: a lieutenant who worked with Sleds Firearms Identification Laboratory. He

757
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: looked these fragments and he compareson with the test bullets

758
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: that he himself fired from both guns inconclusive and he

759
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: widens it out even more. He says, this could have

760
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: been fired by Dreyer's gun, this could have been fired

761
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: by Freiberger's gun, or any similarly rifled firearm of the

762
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: same caliber, and when you have nothing else. Why is

763
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: Edward Freiberger still a suspect in this case? Because of

764
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence?

765
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 3: Right? It most certainly would be circumstantial.

766
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: What the firearms examiner's opinions are informing me is that

767
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: this gun, and I don't know if it's all H

768
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: and R thirty two revolvers, but they don't mark very well.

769
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: They don't mark bullets very well. And there are guns

770
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 2: that are like that. You know, a very popular gun

771
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: that was frequently used in crimes and a lot of

772
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: oster vall shootings are the glocks, semi automatic pistols. They

773
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 2: use a polygonal type rifling versus the land and groove

774
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: type rifling.

775
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: It's a different thing.

776
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: They mark bullets very and so firearms examiners often cannot

777
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: conclude that the bullet was fired from this particular glock.

778
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: But glocks mark cartridge cases beautifully. The firing pin impression

779
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: is amazing, so we can associate the cartridge cases very

780
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: easily to that type gun. So the make in the

781
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: model of the gun sometimes works in the favor of

782
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 2: the offender or the defendant because it marks so poorly

783
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: just by its design.

784
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 1: Well, this was continuing to be confusing now going on

785
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: thirty eight years later or so, because we have another

786
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: independent ballistics expert who was hired by the Sheriff's department.

787
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: He came to a definitive conclusion. He said that the

788
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: striations of one of the bullet fragments was consistent with

789
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: the test bullets fired from Freiberger's gun, and it was

790
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,479
Speaker 1: enough to get an indictment. Forty years after John Orner died,

791
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: they arrest Edward Freiberger, who is fifty eight years old

792
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: in two thousand.

793
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 3: Who was that firearms examiner John Clayton.

794
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: Do you know who that is? I've never heard of

795
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: him before.

796
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,439
Speaker 2: No, so my if you want to call him, sort

797
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 2: of my predecessor, a mentor in some capacity at my lab,

798
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 2: John Murdoch, worldwide noted firearms examiner during this timeframe. I

799
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: believe he was doing this type of work. You know,

800
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 2: he was being pulled in because of his expertise, both

801
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: for investigative purposes as well as prosecutorial purposes, but also

802
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: for the defense. And he would find previous firearms examiners. Uh,

803
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 2: you blew it. You know he was identified. So that's

804
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: where you know, I don't know this particular firearms examiner

805
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: in order to be able to say how much veracity

806
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: I would put on the confidence on his opinion. But

807
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: you know right now, so you've got Freiburger being arrested

808
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 2: and charged.

809
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: Yep. So this happened in two thousand and this is

810
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: the same year when John Clayton examines the bullet fragments.

811
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: It's the same that the other experts did it too,

812
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: with the cold case unit. So it's not like this

813
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: happened last year and there's this huge jump in technology.

814
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: It's just another opinion. It's a different person's opinion. And

815
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: to me, what's disturbing about this case, regardless of whether

816
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: Freiberger was innocent or guilty, is that it really is

817
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: this one piece of evidence and that's it, and you've

818
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: got all of these different opinions. So it just seems

819
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: very misleading in that way. But do you have a

820
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: different opinion.

821
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: One of the beauties of firearms evidence is it can

822
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: be documented, and you know, the photographs are taken. So

823
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: this firearms examiner he renders an opinion he's finding straya

824
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: that matches, and so that should have been documented photographically,

825
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 2: and that is something that can be very easily looked

826
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: at by other experts as well as you know, this

827
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: type of examination can be done over and over and

828
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: over again. So this is where, you know, for Freiburger's defense.

829
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 2: So you've got this one fire arms examiner saying, yeah,

830
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: his gun, you know, is matching at the straya. The

831
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: defense is going to be pulling in another expert to

832
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: take a look at the very marks that the prosecutions

833
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: examiner and is going to say yeah, I agree or no,

834
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: I disagree. And now you do have a battle of experts.

835
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: But you can throw those photos up in court in

836
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: front of the jury, and each expert can say this

837
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 2: is what I am seeing, why I can conclude this,

838
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 2: or why I can eliminate this gun, or why I

839
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: think it's inconclusive.

840
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about Freiburger forty years later.

841
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: So when he was eighteen and initially a suspect, you know,

842
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: he was this kid who was constantly going a wall

843
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: with the army. He flashed forward forty years later, is

844
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: fifty eight. He's living on a ranch in Indiana, where

845
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: he was initially from no criminal record, worked at a factory.

846
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: He had a quiet life apparently with his wife. They

847
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: had three children, and one of his daughters was a

848
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: police officer. This doesn't really come into play later, but

849
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: his son in law makes a lot of noise. He's

850
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: a police captain. He makes a lot of noise about

851
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: this indictment. When investigators approached Freiberger, he was pissed. He

852
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: was like, this is I can't believe you're even talking

853
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: to me forty years later with this stupid evidence. One

854
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: of the investigators on the case, this is a funny quote.

855
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: One of the investigators working on the case described him

856
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: as making no admission, but that his demeanor, his manner, speech,

857
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: and reluctance to remember anything at the time was awesome.

858
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: He said it was unreal. So he dug in and

859
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: just said, I'm not working with any of you on this.

860
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: Your steamrolling me. His son in law, the police captain, agreed,

861
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: chastised investigators all over the place, and he said, there

862
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: is just no other county in the world where this

863
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: case would have, forty years later gone to an indictment.

864
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: And I think from my perspective, I would be evaluating

865
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: this case from the totality of the circumstantial evidence being

866
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: used against Freiburger, and then I personally would want to

867
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,720
Speaker 2: see the documentation of the firearms evidence that was used

868
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: to show that Freiberger's gun was likely the one to

869
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: have fired the bullets, to see if it would convince me,

870
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: and then I would probably be talking to firearms examiners

871
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: that I trust and get their opinions before I would

872
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 2: have moved forward with pursuing Freiburger. And I don't know

873
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: if that's what they did. It sounds like they got

874
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: the one firearms examiner enrolled with it.

875
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 3: YEP. So this goes to trial. I'm assuming it does.

876
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 1: And I'd like you to stop being pole holes for

877
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: just a second and imagine being a juror in two

878
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: thousand and two listening to this trial and this evidence

879
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: of a prosecutor's expert saying this is a match, potentially

880
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: showting photos. I don't know, but it was convincing enough

881
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: for the DA to say, yes, put them on the stand.

882
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: What would you do hearing as a j ure the

883
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence plus this hard forensic evidence presented by.

884
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: The DA, Well, I think, as a lay person, let's

885
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: say somebody relatively naive within evaluating cases. And I don't

886
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: use the term naive to be critical, it's just, you know,

887
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: most people don't deal with this stuff day in and

888
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 2: day out, with the circumstances, and with an expert coming

889
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: in and saying the murder weapon was found in his

890
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: waistband while he was out hitchhiking, then I likely would

891
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: start leaning towards I think he is responsible for John's homicide.

892
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: They agreed with you. The jury found him guilty and

893
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: he was sentenced to life in prison. And John Orner's

894
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 1: only surviving relative was his stepdaughter and she just said,

895
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm so glad it's over. My mother was heartbroken like

896
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 1: everybody else over this would be. And this is where

897
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: things get sort of complicated for me emotionally, because you

898
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: do have this man, this victim, who seems like he

899
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: was a hard working guy, supporting his family, working difficult

900
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: hours in a dangerous sometimes job. He's murdered. You want justice.

901
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if this was the justice, And I

902
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 1: will tell you we are continuing this story. There's more

903
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: to this story.

904
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because as I'm just thinking about this case, you mentioned,

905
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, they were ecstatic that you know, they had

906
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 2: preserved this evidence, the fragments and the two guns over

907
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: the years.

908
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 3: Did they even bother.

909
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 2: To take a look for DNA evidence, right, Did they

910
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 2: look at the totality of the potential physical evidence from

911
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 2: both guns or was it just well, we're just going

912
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: to run with firearms, because it's possible that even today

913
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: one of those guns could still have John's blood or

914
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 2: his DNA you know inside the bar. Well, it's been

915
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 2: test fired too many times, but there may be some

916
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 2: areas on the muzzle of the gun in which DNA

917
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 2: could still be recovered.

918
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: They found blood in the handle of guns before, I

919
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: think in the groups of guns too, right.

920
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: Well, depending on the circumstances, you know, how much you know,

921
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 2: if you have a situation which you have a lot

922
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: of blood that coats the gun, you could take a

923
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: gun apart and find blood that has seeped in the

924
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 2: internal mechanisms of the weapon. But typically without the gun

925
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: being exposed to large volumes of blood, just this fine spatter,

926
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 2: and it's so easy to overlook, and quite frankly, after

927
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 2: so many years, it's going to look like rest spots, okay,

928
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: And so you know you have to understand that time

929
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 2: alters the appearance of evidence.

930
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 3: It is very surreal.

931
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: For example, if I pull out like I can think

932
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 2: of a case it was a nineteen sixty six homicide

933
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: of a housewife strangled inside her own home, and I

934
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: pull out this dress that she was wearing in nineteen

935
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: sixty six, and first, it's like this time capsule, right,

936
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: because this was a style that you just don't see today.

937
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,280
Speaker 2: But also how over time you see how the freereous

938
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: stains on the dress have become either more visible or

939
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: less visible, depending on the type of stain. And that's

940
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: something that's been handled appropriately for the last thirty forty years.

941
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,439
Speaker 2: So like this firearm, this is where the hope would

942
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: be is that that firearm passed through an experienced biologist

943
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 2: hands first to try to recover any potential DNA that

944
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: could be associated back to the victim before it went

945
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 2: to a firearms examiner who's not going to be paying

946
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: much attention to DNA evidence. They're going to take that

947
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: gun and they want to shoot it and know they'll

948
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: document it.

949
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: They want to shoot it. Wow, you know.

950
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, I mean there's firearms examiners

951
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: that are very evidence conscious, but typically guns in this

952
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: day and age have already been screened for evidence like

953
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: trace evidence and blood evidence. So when a firearms examiner

954
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 2: gets it. They're just now going to man handle it

955
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 2: in order to get the evidence they need, you know.

956
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 2: So that's where part of my assessment. If I were

957
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 2: to be pulled in to this case today, I would

958
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: be assessing what was done to this gun. Of course,

959
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: what was done back in nineteen sixty one sixty two

960
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 2: after arrest, because that impacts my evaluation of the evidence today,

961
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 2: but also what was done how thoroughly was it done

962
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety seven or two.

963
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: Thousand and I think that's what's so maddening about cold

964
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: cases is the way that the evidence is preserved. What

965
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: tests they already ran? Did they use up all of

966
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: the usable evidence to begin with? I mean, the list

967
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: goes on and on, and I think that must be

968
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: very difficult for cold case detectives just to think that

969
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: you've gotten close to something and realize right that the

970
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: gun was handed over to a ballistics expert who just

971
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: destroyed the inside of it, and then you've got these

972
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: missed opportunities. Do you think in two thousand and two

973
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: that an analyst's first instinct, though, would be let's swab

974
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: the gun on the inside for blood. You think that

975
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: this would even be something that would occur to them

976
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 1: that DNA in two thousand and two would be really

977
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: a solid piece of evidence, or are we still kind

978
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: of new indto it.

979
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,839
Speaker 2: No, we're at a point in two thousand and one,

980
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 2: two thousand and two in which you know DNA was

981
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: commonly being done. But the visualization the examination of a

982
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: gun for blood evidence, you know, it's understanding the circumstances

983
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 2: of the case, and a good forensic scientist, a good kriminalist,

984
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: would understand all the potential evidence that could be present

985
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: on this gun because of the circumstances. It's a close

986
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: range shot to the back of the victim's head. Part

987
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: of the pet peeve that I have, and this is

988
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: going to be a little mini rant and a little

989
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: bit of of a soapbox I'm gonna get on, is

990
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 2: due to some very obvious almost criminal negligence that some

991
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: forensic scientists have done over the years that have become

992
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 2: very public, but also because of the accreditation and kind

993
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: of the Innocence Project. Stance is about how bias factors

994
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 2: into forensic science. Well, forensic scientists can't know anything about

995
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: the case, so now what you're doing is you're putting

996
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: the burden on the investigator or on an attorney to

997
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: make decisions as to what evidence to look for. So now, oh,

998
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 2: we've got an old gun, well, let's compare it to

999
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: the firearms evidence and doesn't even consider the totality of

1000
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 2: potential evidence on that weapon. And the forensic scientist doesn't

1001
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: know the circumstances to know, well, no, I should be looking.

1002
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 3: For blood in this case.

1003
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: It's just I'm now doing a comparison between this gun

1004
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 2: and the test fires and seeing if it works.

1005
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: So that's part of.

1006
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 2: If we blind our evidence experts too much about the

1007
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: circumstances of the case, evidence is being missed and I

1008
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 2: see it all the time, and this cuts both ways.

1009
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: This cuts to where you are potentially going to have

1010
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 2: evidence that could exonerate somebody, that could be found by

1011
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: somebody who knows the circumstances of the case and as

1012
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 2: an evidence expert or you can find evidence to be

1013
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 2: able to actually solve the case and get a dangerous

1014
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 2: person off the street. And we have too many silos

1015
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 2: within the criminal justice process where it's the blind leading

1016
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 2: the blind.

1017
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,760
Speaker 3: Evidence is being missed all the time.

1018
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,959
Speaker 1: Well, let me wrap up this case because it ends

1019
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: in an interesting way as far as I'm concerned, Freiberger

1020
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: has maintained his innocence. He appealed his conviction. Lots of

1021
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: technical points in this appeal. You know one it was

1022
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: in the illegal search, he says, when he was first

1023
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 1: patted down and this weapon was found because at the time,

1024
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 1: the Tennessee law stipulated that the officer was not allowed

1025
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: to search him unless there was a threat or unless

1026
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: he was currently charged with a crime there was a

1027
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: threat to public safety. Then when the prosecutor questioned him,

1028
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: he said he was stationed at Fort Leavenworth in front

1029
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: of the jury, so people knew it that. Man, if

1030
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: you were at Fort Levenworth, that means you were imprisoned

1031
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,399
Speaker 1: for doing something wrong. He was there for being a wall.

1032
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: But the prosecutor never clarified that. And then he said

1033
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: the biggest thing I will say is the ineffective assistance

1034
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: of counsel. And the reason that this case gets turned

1035
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: a little bit on its head is because his attorney,

1036
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: Freiberger's attorney never brings in the Hoover letter, which I

1037
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: know you probably thought was a minor thing, but this

1038
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: changes the case. The Hoover letter was the letter that

1039
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: said sled thinks that it's the other gun. It's not

1040
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: Freiberger's gun. This goes to an appeals court, and the

1041
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: appeals court blew off the wrongfull search. They blew off

1042
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: the Fort Leavenworth comment, but they said that that letter

1043
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: would have deeply undermined the foundation of the state's case.

1044
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: That letter to Hoover saying this guy, we don't think

1045
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: did it. It should have been submitted and it didn't.

1046
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 2: Well, this is a huge transgression by the prosecution in

1047
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: this case.

1048
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 3: This letter is exculpatory evidence. And you know, we have

1049
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: case law Brady v. Maryland, in which it is the

1050
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 3: obligation of the prosecution to turn over any and all

1051
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: exculpatory evidence under discovery to the defense. To have something

1052
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 3: that is this significant in its findings, the actual you know,

1053
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: scientific testing where you have a law enforcement agency writing it,

1054
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 3: minimally it must be turned over to defense. But it

1055
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 3: also should have been something in which the prosecution should

1056
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: have gone, well, we're putting the brakes on this prosecution

1057
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 3: and we need to reevaluate whether or not we're going

1058
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 3: to proceed with a criminal trial in this case. I

1059
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,479
Speaker 3: would think, you know, with that type of finding, many

1060
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 3: prosecutors would have dismissed the case and not meaning that

1061
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: Freiberger would never have been charged with murder down the road.

1062
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 3: But right now we don't have enough to say that

1063
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 3: he is truly responsible outside of some circumstantial evidence, and

1064
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 3: we're not sure we can convince a jury of twelve.

1065
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 3: You know that he's guilty based on the circumstances.

1066
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: Well, and I'll tell you he spent fourteen years in

1067
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: prison awaiting all of these appeals because the appeals processes

1068
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,919
Speaker 1: slow as molasses. When the court finally gets a hold

1069
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: of this, South Carolina court finally gets a hold of this,

1070
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: they say that this letter was crucial. They reversed the

1071
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: denial of post conviction relief as to this issue, and

1072
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: they remand a new trial. Freiberger has a decision. He

1073
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 1: can go through another trial or he can enter an

1074
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: alfred plea for a voluntary manslaughter. We know that's a

1075
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: deal where the defendant pleads guilty to a crime, is

1076
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: acknowledging that the DA probably has enough evidence to convict him,

1077
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 1: but he still can maintain his innocence and he doesn't

1078
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: have to admit to anything. I think he made the

1079
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: right decision. He took the Alfred Plea. And in twenty seventeen,

1080
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: so just six years ago, he is released after fourteen

1081
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: years in prison. So the math goes in sixty one,

1082
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: he was eighteen, he's free for forty years, he goes

1083
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: in at sixty, and then he's in prison from sixty

1084
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: to age seventy four, and then he's released.

1085
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I don't know what to think

1086
00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: about Freiburger in terms of was he responsible for John's

1087
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 2: homicide or not. It just sounds like they didn't have

1088
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 2: a very strong case. The physical evidence wasn't there. You

1089
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 2: have circumstances that you know, are interesting, but as I've seen,

1090
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 2: coincidences do occur.

1091
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 3: And that's where, you know, I really.

1092
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 2: Want to, you know, know, the totality of the circumstance

1093
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: oral evidence that they had against Freiburger in order to

1094
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: be able to say, Okay, you know he likely is responsible,

1095
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 2: but right now just don't know. You know, I would

1096
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 2: say that that's it's kind of an unknown with what

1097
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: they have at this point in time.

1098
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: YEP. I agree, this was a messy, messy case. Very

1099
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: rarely am I going to hand you something that's gotten dry. Wait,

1100
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: if you look at the if you look at the

1101
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: clock and it's thirty minutes, and then I'm saying case closed.

1102
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: Expect that something different is going to happen in the

1103
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 1: next thirty minutes.

1104
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I've I've come to expect that. I know

1105
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to be you know, thrown for he somehow

1106
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 2: bamboozled and fooled over the course of the story.

1107
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: So well, I hope to return to South Carolina sometime

1108
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: soon with another case, but we will move forward next

1109
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: week with a new venue and a new time period.

1110
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 3: Oh all right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

1111
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1112
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

1113
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1114
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1115
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 3: Research by Marre m and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1116
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,120
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1117
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1118
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1119
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1120
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1121
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

1122
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1123
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1124
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 2: criminal mind is available now, and

1125
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1126
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 1: cases is also available now