WEBVTT - Judy Collins 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:22.756 Pushkin. Hey, y'all, it's justin Richmond. To kick off our 0:00:22.796 --> 0:00:26.036 celebration of Women's History Month, we have the great singer 0:00:26.116 --> 0:00:29.636 and interpreter of song, Judy Collins, who, at eighty two 0:00:29.716 --> 0:00:32.036 years old, is in the midst of a creative shift 0:00:32.076 --> 0:00:35.236 in the way she works. Collins made her name during 0:00:35.276 --> 0:00:38.556 the sixties folk Revival, covering songs by other artists like 0:00:38.716 --> 0:00:42.116 Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, using her crisp soprano to 0:00:42.156 --> 0:00:45.476 transform them. But this year, for the first time in 0:00:45.476 --> 0:00:49.196 her career, she's released an album written entirely by herself. 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:53.036 The album's called Spellbound, in the music feels right at 0:00:53.076 --> 0:00:55.956 home with some of the best in her catalog. Here's 0:00:55.956 --> 0:00:58.116 her song When I Was a Girl in Colorado, a 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:01.076 sweet ode to the beautiful land of the West. Nestled 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:19.316 between soft pedal steel, Judy Collins has managed to retain 0:01:19.356 --> 0:01:22.196 the vibrancy in her voice that made her a commodity 0:01:22.276 --> 0:01:24.996 all those years ago in the East Village and has 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:28.476 kept pushing the bounds of her creativity. She tells Bruce 0:01:28.476 --> 0:01:31.556 Hedlam on today's episode about her recent burst of activity, 0:01:31.836 --> 0:01:35.236 which not only includes this album, but five others. That's 0:01:35.316 --> 0:01:38.876 six in the last six years. They also discussed her 0:01:38.876 --> 0:01:42.596 working relationship with Leonard Cohen and how she actually lived 0:01:42.636 --> 0:01:47.636 the rugged life that peers like Dylan could only sing about. 0:01:48.796 --> 0:01:52.036 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:52.196 --> 0:01:56.916 I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlam with Judy Collins. Since 0:01:56.956 --> 0:01:59.996 you've turned eighty, you've got your first number one, and 0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:03.676 you're touring, and you've got this great new album. Everyone 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:06.716 should hear. Particularly the version of sending the Clowns with 0:02:06.836 --> 0:02:12.156 just a piano is so beautiful, good, so beautiful, and 0:02:12.236 --> 0:02:16.196 such a beautiful ending to that album. This new album 0:02:16.236 --> 0:02:18.516 coming out, in which I've written all the songs. I 0:02:18.636 --> 0:02:20.716 do a lot of writing anyway, but I wrote a 0:02:20.716 --> 0:02:23.236 lot of songs during the pandemic, polished up a bunch 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:27.436 that had been hanging around waiting to be looked at 0:02:27.996 --> 0:02:32.396 and taken seriously. And it was challenging. But I've some 0:02:32.676 --> 0:02:36.116 some of those songs in concert now and we'll see. 0:02:36.196 --> 0:02:39.516 I'm very happy with it. That's exciting. When you heard songs, 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:41.436 how did you know this is a song for me? 0:02:41.476 --> 0:02:46.396 I can make this work. Well, that's DNA, that's history. 0:02:46.436 --> 0:02:49.116 That's what you were like as a child. That's what 0:02:49.196 --> 0:02:53.276 you heard. That's how you were trained. That's how you 0:02:53.436 --> 0:02:55.996 learned how to learn all the songs of the Great 0:02:55.996 --> 0:03:00.316 American Songbook, which my father made our living with singing. 0:03:00.796 --> 0:03:03.436 Your father was a musician, we should say, yes. He 0:03:03.516 --> 0:03:05.916 was a wonderful singer. And then I was born in 0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:08.676 thirty nine. And then he went on to have a 0:03:08.796 --> 0:03:13.116 radio career which lasted thirty years, and we went from 0:03:13.196 --> 0:03:17.916 Seattle to la to Denver. I was always able to 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:21.916 see him perform and hear him perform, and watch and 0:03:22.076 --> 0:03:25.396 learn how to do this thing to have a career, 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:29.436 and the secret being you show up on time in 0:03:29.476 --> 0:03:33.236 most cases and you do your work. No matter how 0:03:33.316 --> 0:03:36.036 much he drank, he always was happy in the morning 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:38.276 and clear. And I don't know how he did it, 0:03:38.276 --> 0:03:44.036 but I learned to do something in my career and 0:03:44.196 --> 0:03:47.996 not have it be blown apart by my tendency to 0:03:48.076 --> 0:03:51.196 drink too much, which I really think I learned that 0:03:51.316 --> 0:03:55.836 from him. You're drinking, which was prodigious, prodigious, Yeah, did 0:03:55.876 --> 0:03:58.516 it ever interfere? Were their mornings you couldn't perform, or 0:03:58.556 --> 0:04:03.036 evenings you couldn't perform, Not until the last year, until 0:04:03.116 --> 0:04:07.516 seventy seven, and then I was canceling right and left. 0:04:07.716 --> 0:04:10.516 I didn't drink on stage until that year either, and 0:04:10.636 --> 0:04:13.076 I always would keep the day clear, and then I 0:04:13.116 --> 0:04:16.636 would drink after the show. I knew by the time 0:04:16.636 --> 0:04:19.036 it was nineteen that I had a real problem, but 0:04:19.156 --> 0:04:21.596 I never tried to quit. I mean, who would you know. 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:24.676 As long as things were going well, you certainly didn't 0:04:24.716 --> 0:04:28.756 want to quit. He also had a life in Colorado 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:32.516 that was quite adventurous. You. I mean, you got married young, 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:34.876 you had a child young, but you cooked at a 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:39.036 sort of national park. You always seemed to be climbing 0:04:39.076 --> 0:04:42.756 mountains and doing crazy things. You had the life that 0:04:43.276 --> 0:04:45.436 Bob Dylan and a lot of the other people in 0:04:45.436 --> 0:04:49.876 the village pretended to have. They all pretended to be 0:04:49.916 --> 0:04:53.316 these rough characters who've been riding the rails and cooking 0:04:53.316 --> 0:04:56.156 at lumber camps. And you're like, no, no, no, I 0:04:56.196 --> 0:04:58.396 did that. You didn't do anything. Yeah, I did that. 0:04:58.636 --> 0:05:03.476 I had started singing for money in March of nineteen 0:05:03.756 --> 0:05:09.516 fifty nine. I sang at a little club called Michael's 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:13.236 Pub Boulder, and then I sang in the mountains in 0:05:13.356 --> 0:05:16.716 Central City, and then I was hired to sing in 0:05:16.796 --> 0:05:20.356 Denver and I started traveling back and forth from Boulder, 0:05:20.436 --> 0:05:22.716 which is where we lived and my husband was in school, 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:28.876 to Boulder Boulder Denver Turnpike, dangerous road in those days. 0:05:29.316 --> 0:05:31.756 We got two offers. I got an offer of six 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:34.836 weeks at the Gate of Horn to open four at 0:05:34.876 --> 0:05:38.956 that point it was Will Holt and my husband and 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:41.596 I got an offer to because a lot of our 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:45.276 friends were park rangers. We knew the Long's Peak ranger 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:49.476 whom we'd met in the mountains in fifty eight, and 0:05:49.756 --> 0:05:53.396 we'd run the lodge and I cooked on with stoves, 0:05:53.396 --> 0:05:56.716 and we'd served the lunches to the hikers, and we 0:05:56.796 --> 0:06:00.196 got to know a whole community of people. I was 0:06:00.276 --> 0:06:03.596 traveling back and forth, of course, to sing, and we 0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:08.436 were offered a firewatch. Meantime, I had broken my leg 0:06:08.516 --> 0:06:10.796 and had a urgery and was in a cast from 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:14.316 my toes to my hip. This was in the spring 0:06:14.516 --> 0:06:18.796 of sixty. They offered us the job, and we went 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:21.876 up to Genesee Park it's called. So we went up 0:06:21.876 --> 0:06:24.596 there for lunch one day and our little boy was 0:06:24.636 --> 0:06:26.836 about a year and a half old, I think, and 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:29.796 we had lunch and we talked about it. What are 0:06:29.796 --> 0:06:31.396 we going to do. Are we going to move to 0:06:31.476 --> 0:06:34.236 Chicago so you can do the get of Horn or 0:06:34.316 --> 0:06:37.076 are we going to take the risk of your being 0:06:37.076 --> 0:06:42.116 in this cast and take a firewatch at Twin Sisters. Well, 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:45.316 I was the breadwinner, so to speak, and I was 0:06:45.476 --> 0:06:48.636 not going to be very helpful if I could not move, 0:06:48.796 --> 0:06:51.916 if there was a fire, and I couldn't get on 0:06:51.956 --> 0:06:57.156 a horse and I couldn't walk in this cast. That's 0:06:57.156 --> 0:06:59.436 when we decided to go to Chicago. And that was 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:02.876 really that moment in my life where I knew that 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:05.036 I was not going to live in Colorado and be 0:07:05.116 --> 0:07:08.636 part of the mountain scene for my adult life, but 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:11.596 that is going to go on this and do this 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:16.516 career and do this thing that I do. When did 0:07:16.516 --> 0:07:22.596 you tell your husband that the cast was fake? After 0:07:22.636 --> 0:07:27.076 I knocked him down the hill? Yeah? What was it 0:07:27.116 --> 0:07:29.636 like for you when you started writing? The world changed 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:33.276 and the sort of curators like Joan Bayes that went 0:07:33.276 --> 0:07:35.556 out of fashion, and so I think you singer songwriters, 0:07:35.596 --> 0:07:37.596 did you feel pressure that you had to write to 0:07:37.596 --> 0:07:40.676 maintain your career? No, no, no, no, I didn't. I 0:07:40.716 --> 0:07:43.676 mean my career was finding other people's songs and doing 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:47.316 them the way I wanted to, and my writing is 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:50.636 completely part of my psyche, and no, it was keeping 0:07:50.636 --> 0:07:53.596 me on the planet is why I write. And ever 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:56.556 since I wrote, since you've asked, I've never stopped writing songs. 0:07:56.756 --> 0:07:59.596 And what was since you've asked about? Well, the title, 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:02.156 since you've asked, you know, Al Cooper said to me, 0:08:02.236 --> 0:08:04.596 why are you not writing songs? And then the answers 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:08.436 since you've asked, I'll show you. So what was it 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:11.636 like when you you performed all these incredible songs you'd 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:14.556 been on stage and then suddenly you're sitting down saying, 0:08:14.596 --> 0:08:17.676 well can I do this? Did you write it a piano? Yeah? 0:08:17.716 --> 0:08:20.596 I write everything at the piano, and that's where I 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:24.596 grew up, at the piano, so it was a natural thing. 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:28.676 It was always there. The whole question of noodling and 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:32.436 finding a melody and a lyric did not occur to 0:08:32.476 --> 0:08:36.956 me until that moment. And I wrote a bunch of 0:08:36.956 --> 0:08:40.156 songs that were pretty interesting at that beginning. Since you've asked, 0:08:40.276 --> 0:08:43.756 and my father I wrote that I wrote Albatross in 0:08:43.756 --> 0:08:47.076 that first I wrote a song called Jay about che Guevera. 0:08:47.596 --> 0:08:50.876 I wrote quite a number of songs, including eventually, while 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:53.676 I took a few months off a couple of years 0:08:53.796 --> 0:08:57.156 later than didn't tour, so I could just write songs, 0:08:57.196 --> 0:09:00.116 and that was where I wrote Secret Gardens and a 0:09:00.196 --> 0:09:03.596 couple of others. But I always have something I come 0:09:03.676 --> 0:09:06.676 up with, something that I need to put on a record. 0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:09.836 So usually one of my songs will show up in 0:09:09.836 --> 0:09:12.716 a collection of other things, except of course, if I'm 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:15.876 doing its on time album, yes, or an album of 0:09:16.076 --> 0:09:19.396 Lennon McCartney, which I've done, an album of Bob Dylan, 0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:23.596 which I've done. Of those three, the Sondheim, the Lennon 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:27.076 McCartney and the Dylan. Doing so many of those songs 0:09:27.236 --> 0:09:30.196 which surprised you the most when you did it, or 0:09:30.236 --> 0:09:32.396 what had the most surprises for you when you actually 0:09:32.396 --> 0:09:36.396 sat down to arrange the songs and to sing them. Well, 0:09:36.796 --> 0:09:39.036 I knew the Dylan songs very well, and I knew 0:09:39.276 --> 0:09:41.756 the Beatles songs very well. But I also by the 0:09:41.836 --> 0:09:44.996 time I recorded the song Time, I knew exactly what 0:09:45.036 --> 0:09:47.596 I wanted to do, and I'd been working on it since. 0:09:47.836 --> 0:09:49.996 Probably did it in twenty sixteen, so it was fifteen 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:54.556 years later. But I had really absorbed that group of 0:09:54.596 --> 0:09:57.516 songs that I loved and that I had to sing, 0:09:57.636 --> 0:10:00.436 and I had to sing them with an orchestra, and 0:10:01.196 --> 0:10:05.396 they were the most challenging. These are works which have 0:10:05.836 --> 0:10:09.556 great depths and great demands to make on the voice 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:13.196 as well as on the heart. Jimmy Webb says to me, 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:16.356 you know, you always record the most difficult of my songs. 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:19.196 One of which I have struggled with, but I finally 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:22.476 think I can sing it is his song about Gogan, 0:10:22.596 --> 0:10:25.516 which is one of those mountain climes of a song. 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:31.796 But it prepared me actually learning Gogan and singing it 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:35.516 in concerts and kind of absorbing it and then recording 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:38.836 I think prepared me to do this on time album 0:10:39.156 --> 0:10:44.356 and it is really satisfying and really exciting material and 0:10:44.476 --> 0:10:47.996 really brings you up to the point where you have 0:10:48.116 --> 0:10:50.956 to say, wow, I don't know how I did that. 0:10:53.196 --> 0:10:55.116 What is it that's challenging about his songs? Is it 0:10:55.156 --> 0:10:58.876 the leaps? Is it the rhythm? Is there just something 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:03.876 about singing them that makes them difficult? They're often some 0:11:03.996 --> 0:11:09.316 other realm that is not customary in songs from the 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:12.476 Great American Songbook, most of which have been taken out 0:11:12.556 --> 0:11:16.916 of Broadway shows. You don't sing along with son TEI 0:11:17.036 --> 0:11:19.756 when you walk out of the theater. Pretty much you 0:11:19.876 --> 0:11:25.916 are given an architecture that is unusual, surprising, very moving, 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:30.076 intellectually challenging, and at the same time melodic. He holds 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:33.956 the papers he has signed off on, something that other 0:11:33.996 --> 0:11:38.036 people cannot really copy. I don't think. Do you think 0:11:38.076 --> 0:11:40.636 you have a talent from making them accessible to your audience? 0:11:40.956 --> 0:11:45.396 I hope so, and that's really the point. I do 0:11:45.556 --> 0:11:51.756 think that my ability to clarify and to articulate, to 0:11:51.796 --> 0:11:54.836 be clear, and to phrase, and that's what you have 0:11:54.916 --> 0:11:57.356 to do with those songs. You must phrase them so 0:11:57.396 --> 0:12:01.036 that they are understandable to the listener, and that you 0:12:01.276 --> 0:12:03.956 use that melody to carry you through to your audience 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:05.916 so that they get it and that they are as 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:08.876 excited about the song when it comes to an end 0:12:08.956 --> 0:12:11.516 is you are. I'm wondering if some of that for 0:12:11.596 --> 0:12:13.956 you comes from your early career. But it was very 0:12:13.996 --> 0:12:19.316 much traditional folk music, Irish appelation. Yes, that was really 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:22.516 the stuff you learned and the stuff you first recorded. Absolutely, 0:12:22.716 --> 0:12:27.876 but when you perform it it doesn't sound old timey 0:12:28.036 --> 0:12:31.916 or nostalgic. You make them feel very contemporary. Yes, A 0:12:32.036 --> 0:12:35.756 song of yours that I love and seems almost like 0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:37.836 a folk song at times. Is my father? Can you 0:12:37.876 --> 0:12:41.236 tell me about writing that? It was in April that 0:12:41.316 --> 0:12:45.236 I wrote of nineteen sixty eight, and he died in May. 0:12:45.836 --> 0:12:51.956 It was just an easy access. It came very easily. 0:12:52.036 --> 0:12:55.676 You know. They don't all come so easily, and that's 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:57.796 how they get you, though. It took me about forty 0:12:57.796 --> 0:13:00.476 minutes to write, since you've asked, and the same thing 0:13:00.596 --> 0:13:03.236 was true as my father. But then in between you 0:13:03.316 --> 0:13:06.076 have these months and months of struggling with a song. 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:09.036 But they hook you by getting you to be able 0:13:09.036 --> 0:13:13.156 to write my father, And since you've asked, I knew 0:13:13.156 --> 0:13:16.636 he was sick. In nineteen sixty seven, at Christmas, I 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:19.436 had been for the first time. I'd been making some money, 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:22.316 and so I gave my parents a trip to Hawaii 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:25.236 is a present, and when they got there, he got sick, 0:13:25.396 --> 0:13:28.196 and he got sick there in the hospital, and then 0:13:28.196 --> 0:13:30.356 he came back, and for months they didn't know what 0:13:30.436 --> 0:13:32.076 was the matter with him. But I knew he was 0:13:32.076 --> 0:13:35.676 in the hospital, and so the song came very easily 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:38.436 to me, But he never heard it, which is the 0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:41.556 sad part of it. I called an old friend, Tom Glazer, 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:43.636 and I sang it to Tom on the phone. I 0:13:43.636 --> 0:13:45.836 would have done that was my father, I'm sure, but 0:13:46.116 --> 0:13:49.516 it's not something that probably a person who's on his 0:13:49.596 --> 0:13:55.196 way to dying would want to hear necessarily because the 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:59.156 opening of the song it describes your father promising you 0:13:59.316 --> 0:14:01.916 that you would live in France. Yeah, is that something 0:14:01.996 --> 0:14:05.156 your father actually did? Well? It was in sixty eight. 0:14:05.156 --> 0:14:08.276 It was that summer I met Stephen four days after 0:14:08.356 --> 0:14:11.916 my father's death, and I was writing the song and 0:14:11.996 --> 0:14:14.396 the first line was my father always promised us that 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:16.956 we would live in Spain. I couldn't rhyme it with 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:22.796 rain or pain, so I had to change. My fair 0:14:22.916 --> 0:14:28.076 Lady killed that one for exactly. Yeah, we'll be right 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:30.516 back after a quick break with more from Judy Collins. 0:14:34.796 --> 0:14:37.476 We're back with more from Bruce Headlam and Judy Collins. 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:40.356 Can you take me back to sixty four where you 0:14:40.396 --> 0:14:43.596 were and how the first town Hall concert came about? 0:14:43.716 --> 0:14:46.196 Because it became a famous album of yours. It did 0:14:46.276 --> 0:14:50.076 become a famous album, and I signed my contract with 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:53.956 Elector in nineteen sixty one on a handshake with Jack Holsman, 0:14:54.636 --> 0:14:59.356 and he became my champion. And I had opened for 0:14:59.756 --> 0:15:03.076 theod Quell at Carnegie Hall. So I had sort of 0:15:03.356 --> 0:15:07.556 broken into the big stages in New York. But now 0:15:07.596 --> 0:15:10.916 I had a full tell solo concert at town Hall, 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:14.916 and that was after my first three albums, and so 0:15:15.076 --> 0:15:17.396 Jack said, well, let's we got to record this. That 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:19.996 was a big deal in those days because there was 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:22.196 a big truck outside and a lot of people with 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:25.556 a lot of reel to reel tapes going on. I'd 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:29.236 found Phil Oakes's song in the Heat of the Summer, 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.876 and a couple of Dylan songs, primarily the Lonesome Death 0:15:32.916 --> 0:15:35.956 of Hattie Carroll, which I had heard him sing actually 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:40.196 on the town Hall stage in nineteen sixty two, and 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:44.116 Billy Head Wheeler song, one of which Cold Too I 0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:47.516 have sung consistently from then on. It's the best song 0:15:47.596 --> 0:15:51.836 about people who've been in a job that doesn't exist 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:55.036 anymore that I know, So it was really interesting to 0:15:55.076 --> 0:15:58.996 go back and do that. We did this album in 0:15:59.036 --> 0:16:02.436 a virtual environment, so there was nobody in town Hall 0:16:02.476 --> 0:16:05.436 when we recorded it in January, and I didn't actually 0:16:05.476 --> 0:16:07.556 know they were going to put it on a vinyl 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:10.956 and a CD, but they did, which is good. It's 0:16:10.956 --> 0:16:13.316 good for me. It's good for my fans. If it 0:16:13.356 --> 0:16:15.156 hadn't been for the pandemic, would you have had a 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:17.836 crowd there or not? Oh yeah, oh yes, we should 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:22.276 mention that was your album of twenty nineteen, which became 0:16:22.356 --> 0:16:27.716 your first number one album on the Billboard. Yeah, and 0:16:27.796 --> 0:16:30.636 you were I think eighty when that happened. That's pretty good. 0:16:30.876 --> 0:16:34.996 I got a call from Billboard and they said, oh, 0:16:35.036 --> 0:16:38.116 you've got your number one lifetime and you're in the 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:41.836 bluegrass category. And I said, that's fine. I'm very happy 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:44.716 to know. But remember I've had all those other numbers 0:16:44.756 --> 0:16:49.596 to the year. Don't forget about those. Your performances in 0:16:49.596 --> 0:16:52.996 that are I mean, it's beautiful, but particularly this on 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:56.036 time because the album finishes with it, and so it 0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:59.556 finishes with the line maybe next year. Yeah, yeah, and 0:16:59.676 --> 0:17:01.516 knowing it was done in the middle of the pandemic, 0:17:01.916 --> 0:17:05.196 it's very moving. Yeah, it is. When I was listening 0:17:05.476 --> 0:17:08.356 to the album and I'm listening to you sing both 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:11.076 sides now, which is not the easiest song to sing 0:17:11.876 --> 0:17:14.156 in the world. You sing it in the same key. 0:17:14.956 --> 0:17:17.476 I know. I always sing it in the same key. 0:17:17.756 --> 0:17:20.916 A lot of the songs on that album. On the 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:24.876 nineteen sixty four are very high and I could sing 0:17:24.956 --> 0:17:27.716 them no problem. Okay, Well, then we need to know 0:17:27.756 --> 0:17:32.116 your secret, because how can you sing songs like and 0:17:32.196 --> 0:17:34.716 Winter Sky and Ramblin Boy and all these other great songs? 0:17:34.836 --> 0:17:36.356 You sing in the same key which a lot of 0:17:36.356 --> 0:17:39.796 performers over the years have to lower it. So what 0:17:39.836 --> 0:17:42.396 do you do with your voice that allows you to 0:17:42.436 --> 0:17:44.876 do that? Well, today I sat down and practice the 0:17:44.916 --> 0:17:48.076 piano and sang did some exercises that I was taught 0:17:48.116 --> 0:17:51.636 by my teacher. And if there is a secret, it 0:17:51.756 --> 0:17:56.396 is what Max Margali's taught me, which is that everything 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:59.876 is about clarity and phrasing. If you listen to a 0:17:59.956 --> 0:18:03.356 singer and you understand the words, it goes a long 0:18:03.396 --> 0:18:06.476 way to proving that they're singing well. If you don't, 0:18:07.156 --> 0:18:11.196 maybe not so much. And my whole purpose in life 0:18:11.236 --> 0:18:14.836 is to tell the stories so that they can be understood. 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:18.516 I know some people who have let's say, rugged voices. 0:18:18.676 --> 0:18:23.996 They're charming, but the real challenge is to keep telling 0:18:24.036 --> 0:18:29.116 the stories and telling them understandably. You mentioned Max Margolis, 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:31.476 he was there vocal coach. Yes, when did you start 0:18:31.516 --> 0:18:35.036 with him? I started with him in nineteen sixty five. 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:38.476 You know, as a pianist trained pianist, I sang in 0:18:38.516 --> 0:18:42.596 the choirs and the choruses. But when I got stretched 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:46.036 out on the road after sixty one, when I began 0:18:46.076 --> 0:18:48.276 to make records and have to travel all over the world, 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:51.756 I would lose my voice all the time. And so 0:18:52.116 --> 0:18:54.516 by nineteen sixty five it was clear that I had 0:18:54.556 --> 0:18:57.676 to do something about it. And I didn't know anybody 0:18:57.676 --> 0:18:59.876 in New York who would do that. I mean my 0:19:00.036 --> 0:19:04.116 friends who were the folk music community. Nobody was taking 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:08.116 singing lessons, that's for sure. So I called Harry Belafonde 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:10.716 and his somebody who worked with him, and said, oh, 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:15.356 Harry says, you have to talk to his guitarist, Ray Boguslav, 0:19:15.636 --> 0:19:18.516 and you have to call Ray because Ray knows about 0:19:18.556 --> 0:19:23.116 these things. So I called Ray Boguslav and he said, well, 0:19:23.116 --> 0:19:26.156 there's only one person that would be worthwhile to work with, 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:29.196 and his name is Max Margolis. So I wrote his 0:19:29.236 --> 0:19:32.116 phone number down. And so at the end of the summer, 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:36.076 I was in my apartment on the Upper West Side, 0:19:36.876 --> 0:19:39.716 and I picked up the piece of paper with the 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:42.676 phone number on it, which I had kept, and I 0:19:42.836 --> 0:19:46.636 called this number and this man answered, and I said, 0:19:46.756 --> 0:19:49.636 who I was, and I told him who had recommended him. 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:51.956 And we talked for a little bit and I said, 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:53.876 I'd really like to come and see you and see 0:19:53.876 --> 0:19:57.196 if you can help me out with this problem. And 0:19:57.436 --> 0:19:59.996 he said what do you do? And I told him 0:20:00.036 --> 0:20:02.756 and he said, ah, I'm not interested. You people are 0:20:02.796 --> 0:20:08.836 not serious. And I said, oh, trust me, I'm serious. 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:13.716 And I begged and pleaded, and finally he said all right. 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:19.876 He said we'll spend a little time together. You can 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:22.196 come and see me. And I said, well, that's wonderful. 0:20:22.236 --> 0:20:25.596 But where do you live? And he told me, and 0:20:25.756 --> 0:20:28.276 I walked out my front door on the eighth floor 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:32.956 of one sixty four West seventy ninths and I turned 0:20:33.076 --> 0:20:35.956 right and walked past the elevator and rang his bell. 0:20:38.596 --> 0:20:41.956 He didn't expect you quite so soon. Now, that's how 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:45.516 right on these two folks were. That I obviously it 0:20:45.596 --> 0:20:48.636 was Karmick, and it was met and then I studied 0:20:48.636 --> 0:20:51.676 with him for thirty two years until he died. And 0:20:51.716 --> 0:20:54.796 the last thing he said to me at Roosevelt Hospital 0:20:54.836 --> 0:20:59.076 when he was dying was don't worry. As long as 0:20:59.076 --> 0:21:02.516 you know that it's clarity and phrasing, you're going to 0:21:02.596 --> 0:21:06.676 be fine. How do you practice clarity and phrasing? Well, 0:21:06.716 --> 0:21:09.236 you think about clarity about the words. You know, my 0:21:09.356 --> 0:21:11.596 husband will say to me, you've got to be clearer 0:21:11.596 --> 0:21:13.596 on that song. You know it's a new song and 0:21:13.716 --> 0:21:17.276 you're not finding your way into it. It's not understandable 0:21:17.316 --> 0:21:20.156 to me. So that'll do it, you know every time. 0:21:21.716 --> 0:21:24.196 We'll be right back with more from Judy Collins. After 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:30.316 a quick break, we're back with the rest of Bruce's 0:21:30.316 --> 0:21:34.396 conversation with Judy Collins. One of the things reading your 0:21:34.436 --> 0:21:37.876 autobiography that I found fascinating. You lived in the Upper 0:21:37.876 --> 0:21:39.436 West Side, but you were really part of the Greenwich 0:21:39.516 --> 0:21:45.836 village scene, and how quickly you got to know seemingly everybody. 0:21:45.956 --> 0:21:48.916 When you had trouble with your voice, you phoned Harry Bellefonte. 0:21:49.556 --> 0:21:54.036 What was it about the village at that point? I 0:21:54.076 --> 0:21:55.796 know there are a lot of talented people there, but 0:21:56.276 --> 0:21:59.316 everybody seemed to intersect so many times. Was it a 0:21:59.356 --> 0:22:03.236 small community, Was it that everybody was drinking together, or 0:22:03.636 --> 0:22:07.436 what was it that made it so connected? You know, 0:22:07.476 --> 0:22:09.476 when you think of the village, it's a very small 0:22:10.036 --> 0:22:13.036 area of physical area. It's only a few blocks. You 0:22:13.076 --> 0:22:16.116 would think of it as this huge place, and yes 0:22:16.236 --> 0:22:19.276 we drank together. It was very much a social club. 0:22:19.436 --> 0:22:21.556 But when I got to the village, it was nineteen 0:22:21.636 --> 0:22:24.836 sixty one, and there was a kind of a word 0:22:24.876 --> 0:22:27.716 of mouth around the whole country. The people around the 0:22:27.756 --> 0:22:30.836 clubs would say, to another person who ran a club 0:22:30.836 --> 0:22:35.196 in Chicago, maybe she sold tickets, and they would hire me. 0:22:35.236 --> 0:22:37.196 I was there for six weeks at a time, or 0:22:37.756 --> 0:22:41.636 sometimes a month and a half two months. In that way, 0:22:41.796 --> 0:22:44.676 the venues got to know that you were doing business, 0:22:44.756 --> 0:22:46.796 so they would hire you. And I went to New 0:22:46.836 --> 0:22:50.796 York for the first time since I was a teenager. 0:22:50.916 --> 0:22:54.596 I went to Greenwich Village and I was the opener. 0:22:54.636 --> 0:22:58.036 I was the headliner at Gurtis Folk City in April 0:22:58.316 --> 0:23:03.356 of nineteen sixty one. Dylan had been when he was 0:23:03.516 --> 0:23:06.316 called roberts Eyman. He had been in Denver and he 0:23:06.396 --> 0:23:08.636 was hanging out there. He was homeless there. He was 0:23:08.636 --> 0:23:12.796 sleeping on the couches of people who sang at the Exodus, 0:23:12.836 --> 0:23:15.276 which is a club that I sang. I opened for 0:23:15.396 --> 0:23:19.796 Bob Gibson, who discovered Joan Bias, and then he called 0:23:19.876 --> 0:23:22.956 Jack Holsman and said, I think I've found your Joan Bias. 0:23:25.316 --> 0:23:28.436 It was a very tiny community, although we were stretched 0:23:28.476 --> 0:23:32.796 out very sin all over the country. But that's really 0:23:32.836 --> 0:23:35.596 the way it was. The night that I opened as 0:23:35.596 --> 0:23:40.316 the headliner at Gertie's Folks, that everybody was there that 0:23:40.436 --> 0:23:43.796 I had ever seen in the record stores, and Pete 0:23:43.836 --> 0:23:46.156 Seeger was there, and Peter Paulumer was there, and Dave 0:23:46.236 --> 0:23:48.636 ren Ronk was there. In Ramblin, Jack Elliott was there 0:23:48.876 --> 0:23:53.676