1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:22,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all, it's justin Richmond. To kick off our 2 00:00:22,796 --> 00:00:26,036 Speaker 1: celebration of Women's History Month, we have the great singer 3 00:00:26,116 --> 00:00:29,636 Speaker 1: and interpreter of song, Judy Collins, who, at eighty two 4 00:00:29,716 --> 00:00:32,036 Speaker 1: years old, is in the midst of a creative shift 5 00:00:32,076 --> 00:00:35,236 Speaker 1: in the way she works. Collins made her name during 6 00:00:35,276 --> 00:00:38,556 Speaker 1: the sixties folk Revival, covering songs by other artists like 7 00:00:38,716 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, using her crisp soprano to 8 00:00:42,156 --> 00:00:45,476 Speaker 1: transform them. But this year, for the first time in 9 00:00:45,476 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: her career, she's released an album written entirely by herself. 10 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: The album's called Spellbound, in the music feels right at 11 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 1: home with some of the best in her catalog. Here's 12 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 1: her song When I Was a Girl in Colorado, a 13 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 1: sweet ode to the beautiful land of the West. Nestled 14 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: between soft pedal steel, Judy Collins has managed to retain 15 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:22,196 Speaker 1: the vibrancy in her voice that made her a commodity 16 00:01:22,276 --> 00:01:24,996 Speaker 1: all those years ago in the East Village and has 17 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:28,476 Speaker 1: kept pushing the bounds of her creativity. She tells Bruce 18 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:31,556 Speaker 1: Hedlam on today's episode about her recent burst of activity, 19 00:01:31,836 --> 00:01:35,236 Speaker 1: which not only includes this album, but five others. That's 20 00:01:35,316 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 1: six in the last six years. They also discussed her 21 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 1: working relationship with Leonard Cohen and how she actually lived 22 00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:47,636 Speaker 1: the rugged life that peers like Dylan could only sing about. 23 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:52,036 Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 24 00:01:52,196 --> 00:01:56,916 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlam with Judy Collins. Since 25 00:01:56,956 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 1: you've turned eighty, you've got your first number one, and 26 00:02:00,236 --> 00:02:03,676 Speaker 1: you're touring, and you've got this great new album. Everyone 27 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:06,716 Speaker 1: should hear. Particularly the version of sending the Clowns with 28 00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:12,156 Speaker 1: just a piano is so beautiful, good, so beautiful, and 29 00:02:12,236 --> 00:02:16,196 Speaker 1: such a beautiful ending to that album. This new album 30 00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:18,516 Speaker 1: coming out, in which I've written all the songs. I 31 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:20,716 Speaker 1: do a lot of writing anyway, but I wrote a 32 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: lot of songs during the pandemic, polished up a bunch 33 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:27,436 Speaker 1: that had been hanging around waiting to be looked at 34 00:02:27,996 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: and taken seriously. And it was challenging. But I've some 35 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:36,116 Speaker 1: some of those songs in concert now and we'll see. 36 00:02:36,196 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 1: I'm very happy with it. That's exciting. When you heard songs, 37 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 1: how did you know this is a song for me? 38 00:02:41,476 --> 00:02:46,396 Speaker 1: I can make this work. Well, that's DNA, that's history. 39 00:02:46,436 --> 00:02:49,116 Speaker 1: That's what you were like as a child. That's what 40 00:02:49,196 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 1: you heard. That's how you were trained. That's how you 41 00:02:53,436 --> 00:02:55,996 Speaker 1: learned how to learn all the songs of the Great 42 00:02:55,996 --> 00:03:00,316 Speaker 1: American Songbook, which my father made our living with singing. 43 00:03:00,796 --> 00:03:03,436 Speaker 1: Your father was a musician, we should say, yes. He 44 00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:05,916 Speaker 1: was a wonderful singer. And then I was born in 45 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: thirty nine. And then he went on to have a 46 00:03:08,796 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 1: radio career which lasted thirty years, and we went from 47 00:03:13,196 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 1: Seattle to la to Denver. I was always able to 48 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 1: see him perform and hear him perform, and watch and 49 00:03:22,076 --> 00:03:25,396 Speaker 1: learn how to do this thing to have a career, 50 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: and the secret being you show up on time in 51 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:33,236 Speaker 1: most cases and you do your work. No matter how 52 00:03:33,316 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: much he drank, he always was happy in the morning 53 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: and clear. And I don't know how he did it, 54 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 1: but I learned to do something in my career and 55 00:03:44,196 --> 00:03:47,996 Speaker 1: not have it be blown apart by my tendency to 56 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 1: drink too much, which I really think I learned that 57 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:55,836 Speaker 1: from him. You're drinking, which was prodigious, prodigious, Yeah, did 58 00:03:55,876 --> 00:03:58,516 Speaker 1: it ever interfere? Were their mornings you couldn't perform, or 59 00:03:58,556 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 1: evenings you couldn't perform, Not until the last year, until 60 00:04:03,116 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 1: seventy seven, and then I was canceling right and left. 61 00:04:07,716 --> 00:04:10,516 Speaker 1: I didn't drink on stage until that year either, and 62 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 1: I always would keep the day clear, and then I 63 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:16,636 Speaker 1: would drink after the show. I knew by the time 64 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 1: it was nineteen that I had a real problem, but 65 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:21,596 Speaker 1: I never tried to quit. I mean, who would you know. 66 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:24,676 Speaker 1: As long as things were going well, you certainly didn't 67 00:04:24,716 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 1: want to quit. He also had a life in Colorado 68 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:32,516 Speaker 1: that was quite adventurous. You. I mean, you got married young, 69 00:04:32,556 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 1: you had a child young, but you cooked at a 70 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:39,036 Speaker 1: sort of national park. You always seemed to be climbing 71 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:42,756 Speaker 1: mountains and doing crazy things. You had the life that 72 00:04:43,276 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and a lot of the other people in 73 00:04:45,436 --> 00:04:49,876 Speaker 1: the village pretended to have. They all pretended to be 74 00:04:49,916 --> 00:04:53,316 Speaker 1: these rough characters who've been riding the rails and cooking 75 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 1: at lumber camps. And you're like, no, no, no, I 76 00:04:56,196 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: did that. You didn't do anything. Yeah, I did that. 77 00:04:58,636 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: I had started singing for money in March of nineteen 78 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 1: fifty nine. I sang at a little club called Michael's 79 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:13,236 Speaker 1: Pub Boulder, and then I sang in the mountains in 80 00:05:13,356 --> 00:05:16,716 Speaker 1: Central City, and then I was hired to sing in 81 00:05:16,796 --> 00:05:20,356 Speaker 1: Denver and I started traveling back and forth from Boulder, 82 00:05:20,436 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 1: which is where we lived and my husband was in school, 83 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 1: to Boulder Boulder Denver Turnpike, dangerous road in those days. 84 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:31,756 Speaker 1: We got two offers. I got an offer of six 85 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 1: weeks at the Gate of Horn to open four at 86 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:38,956 Speaker 1: that point it was Will Holt and my husband and 87 00:05:38,996 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 1: I got an offer to because a lot of our 88 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:45,276 Speaker 1: friends were park rangers. We knew the Long's Peak ranger 89 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:49,476 Speaker 1: whom we'd met in the mountains in fifty eight, and 90 00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:53,396 Speaker 1: we'd run the lodge and I cooked on with stoves, 91 00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:56,716 Speaker 1: and we'd served the lunches to the hikers, and we 92 00:05:56,796 --> 00:06:00,196 Speaker 1: got to know a whole community of people. I was 93 00:06:00,276 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: traveling back and forth, of course, to sing, and we 94 00:06:03,596 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: were offered a firewatch. Meantime, I had broken my leg 95 00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:10,796 Speaker 1: and had a urgery and was in a cast from 96 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:14,316 Speaker 1: my toes to my hip. This was in the spring 97 00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:18,796 Speaker 1: of sixty. They offered us the job, and we went 98 00:06:18,876 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 1: up to Genesee Park it's called. So we went up 99 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:24,596 Speaker 1: there for lunch one day and our little boy was 100 00:06:24,636 --> 00:06:26,836 Speaker 1: about a year and a half old, I think, and 101 00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: we had lunch and we talked about it. What are 102 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:31,396 Speaker 1: we going to do. Are we going to move to 103 00:06:31,476 --> 00:06:34,236 Speaker 1: Chicago so you can do the get of Horn or 104 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:37,076 Speaker 1: are we going to take the risk of your being 105 00:06:37,076 --> 00:06:42,116 Speaker 1: in this cast and take a firewatch at Twin Sisters. Well, 106 00:06:42,356 --> 00:06:45,316 Speaker 1: I was the breadwinner, so to speak, and I was 107 00:06:45,476 --> 00:06:48,636 Speaker 1: not going to be very helpful if I could not move, 108 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:51,916 Speaker 1: if there was a fire, and I couldn't get on 109 00:06:51,956 --> 00:06:57,156 Speaker 1: a horse and I couldn't walk in this cast. That's 110 00:06:57,156 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 1: when we decided to go to Chicago. And that was 111 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: really that moment in my life where I knew that 112 00:07:02,956 --> 00:07:05,036 Speaker 1: I was not going to live in Colorado and be 113 00:07:05,116 --> 00:07:08,636 Speaker 1: part of the mountain scene for my adult life, but 114 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,596 Speaker 1: that is going to go on this and do this 115 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:16,516 Speaker 1: career and do this thing that I do. When did 116 00:07:16,516 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 1: you tell your husband that the cast was fake? After 117 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:27,076 Speaker 1: I knocked him down the hill? Yeah? What was it 118 00:07:27,116 --> 00:07:29,636 Speaker 1: like for you when you started writing? The world changed 119 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:33,276 Speaker 1: and the sort of curators like Joan Bayes that went 120 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 1: out of fashion, and so I think you singer songwriters, 121 00:07:35,596 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 1: did you feel pressure that you had to write to 122 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 1: maintain your career? No, no, no, no, I didn't. I 123 00:07:40,716 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 1: mean my career was finding other people's songs and doing 124 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 1: them the way I wanted to, and my writing is 125 00:07:47,436 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: completely part of my psyche, and no, it was keeping 126 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 1: me on the planet is why I write. And ever 127 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 1: since I wrote, since you've asked, I've never stopped writing songs. 128 00:07:56,756 --> 00:07:59,596 Speaker 1: And what was since you've asked about? Well, the title, 129 00:07:59,716 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: since you've asked, you know, Al Cooper said to me, 130 00:08:02,236 --> 00:08:04,596 Speaker 1: why are you not writing songs? And then the answers 131 00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 1: since you've asked, I'll show you. So what was it 132 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:11,636 Speaker 1: like when you you performed all these incredible songs you'd 133 00:08:11,636 --> 00:08:14,556 Speaker 1: been on stage and then suddenly you're sitting down saying, 134 00:08:14,596 --> 00:08:17,676 Speaker 1: well can I do this? Did you write it a piano? Yeah? 135 00:08:17,716 --> 00:08:20,596 Speaker 1: I write everything at the piano, and that's where I 136 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:24,596 Speaker 1: grew up, at the piano, so it was a natural thing. 137 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 1: It was always there. The whole question of noodling and 138 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 1: finding a melody and a lyric did not occur to 139 00:08:32,476 --> 00:08:36,956 Speaker 1: me until that moment. And I wrote a bunch of 140 00:08:36,956 --> 00:08:40,156 Speaker 1: songs that were pretty interesting at that beginning. Since you've asked, 141 00:08:40,276 --> 00:08:43,756 Speaker 1: and my father I wrote that I wrote Albatross in 142 00:08:43,756 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 1: that first I wrote a song called Jay about che Guevera. 143 00:08:47,596 --> 00:08:50,876 Speaker 1: I wrote quite a number of songs, including eventually, while 144 00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:53,676 Speaker 1: I took a few months off a couple of years 145 00:08:53,796 --> 00:08:57,156 Speaker 1: later than didn't tour, so I could just write songs, 146 00:08:57,196 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 1: and that was where I wrote Secret Gardens and a 147 00:09:00,196 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 1: couple of others. But I always have something I come 148 00:09:03,676 --> 00:09:06,676 Speaker 1: up with, something that I need to put on a record. 149 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 1: So usually one of my songs will show up in 150 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:12,716 Speaker 1: a collection of other things, except of course, if I'm 151 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: doing its on time album, yes, or an album of 152 00:09:16,076 --> 00:09:19,396 Speaker 1: Lennon McCartney, which I've done, an album of Bob Dylan, 153 00:09:19,596 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: which I've done. Of those three, the Sondheim, the Lennon 154 00:09:23,676 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 1: McCartney and the Dylan. Doing so many of those songs 155 00:09:27,236 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 1: which surprised you the most when you did it, or 156 00:09:30,236 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: what had the most surprises for you when you actually 157 00:09:32,396 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 1: sat down to arrange the songs and to sing them. Well, 158 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 1: I knew the Dylan songs very well, and I knew 159 00:09:39,276 --> 00:09:41,756 Speaker 1: the Beatles songs very well. But I also by the 160 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,996 Speaker 1: time I recorded the song Time, I knew exactly what 161 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:47,596 Speaker 1: I wanted to do, and I'd been working on it since. 162 00:09:47,836 --> 00:09:49,996 Speaker 1: Probably did it in twenty sixteen, so it was fifteen 163 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:54,556 Speaker 1: years later. But I had really absorbed that group of 164 00:09:54,596 --> 00:09:57,516 Speaker 1: songs that I loved and that I had to sing, 165 00:09:57,636 --> 00:10:00,436 Speaker 1: and I had to sing them with an orchestra, and 166 00:10:01,196 --> 00:10:05,396 Speaker 1: they were the most challenging. These are works which have 167 00:10:05,836 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 1: great depths and great demands to make on the voice 168 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 1: as well as on the heart. Jimmy Webb says to me, 169 00:10:13,236 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 1: you know, you always record the most difficult of my songs. 170 00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 1: One of which I have struggled with, but I finally 171 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 1: think I can sing it is his song about Gogan, 172 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:25,516 Speaker 1: which is one of those mountain climes of a song. 173 00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:31,796 Speaker 1: But it prepared me actually learning Gogan and singing it 174 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:35,516 Speaker 1: in concerts and kind of absorbing it and then recording 175 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:38,836 Speaker 1: I think prepared me to do this on time album 176 00:10:39,156 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 1: and it is really satisfying and really exciting material and 177 00:10:44,476 --> 00:10:47,996 Speaker 1: really brings you up to the point where you have 178 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 1: to say, wow, I don't know how I did that. 179 00:10:53,196 --> 00:10:55,116 Speaker 1: What is it that's challenging about his songs? Is it 180 00:10:55,156 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 1: the leaps? Is it the rhythm? Is there just something 181 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:03,876 Speaker 1: about singing them that makes them difficult? They're often some 182 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 1: other realm that is not customary in songs from the 183 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 1: Great American Songbook, most of which have been taken out 184 00:11:12,556 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: of Broadway shows. You don't sing along with son TEI 185 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:19,756 Speaker 1: when you walk out of the theater. Pretty much you 186 00:11:19,876 --> 00:11:25,916 Speaker 1: are given an architecture that is unusual, surprising, very moving, 187 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:30,076 Speaker 1: intellectually challenging, and at the same time melodic. He holds 188 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:33,956 Speaker 1: the papers he has signed off on, something that other 189 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 1: people cannot really copy. I don't think. Do you think 190 00:11:38,076 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: you have a talent from making them accessible to your audience? 191 00:11:40,956 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 1: I hope so, and that's really the point. I do 192 00:11:45,556 --> 00:11:51,756 Speaker 1: think that my ability to clarify and to articulate, to 193 00:11:51,796 --> 00:11:54,836 Speaker 1: be clear, and to phrase, and that's what you have 194 00:11:54,916 --> 00:11:57,356 Speaker 1: to do with those songs. You must phrase them so 195 00:11:57,396 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: that they are understandable to the listener, and that you 196 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 1: use that melody to carry you through to your audience 197 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:05,916 Speaker 1: so that they get it and that they are as 198 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:08,876 Speaker 1: excited about the song when it comes to an end 199 00:12:08,956 --> 00:12:11,516 Speaker 1: is you are. I'm wondering if some of that for 200 00:12:11,596 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: you comes from your early career. But it was very 201 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 1: much traditional folk music, Irish appelation. Yes, that was really 202 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:22,516 Speaker 1: the stuff you learned and the stuff you first recorded. Absolutely, 203 00:12:22,716 --> 00:12:27,876 Speaker 1: but when you perform it it doesn't sound old timey 204 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:31,916 Speaker 1: or nostalgic. You make them feel very contemporary. Yes, A 205 00:12:32,036 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 1: song of yours that I love and seems almost like 206 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,836 Speaker 1: a folk song at times. Is my father? Can you 207 00:12:37,876 --> 00:12:41,236 Speaker 1: tell me about writing that? It was in April that 208 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:45,236 Speaker 1: I wrote of nineteen sixty eight, and he died in May. 209 00:12:45,836 --> 00:12:51,956 Speaker 1: It was just an easy access. It came very easily. 210 00:12:52,036 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: You know. They don't all come so easily, and that's 211 00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 1: how they get you, though. It took me about forty 212 00:12:57,796 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 1: minutes to write, since you've asked, and the same thing 213 00:13:00,596 --> 00:13:03,236 Speaker 1: was true as my father. But then in between you 214 00:13:03,316 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 1: have these months and months of struggling with a song. 215 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:09,036 Speaker 1: But they hook you by getting you to be able 216 00:13:09,036 --> 00:13:13,156 Speaker 1: to write my father, And since you've asked, I knew 217 00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:16,636 Speaker 1: he was sick. In nineteen sixty seven, at Christmas, I 218 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:19,436 Speaker 1: had been for the first time. I'd been making some money, 219 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:22,316 Speaker 1: and so I gave my parents a trip to Hawaii 220 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:25,236 Speaker 1: is a present, and when they got there, he got sick, 221 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,196 Speaker 1: and he got sick there in the hospital, and then 222 00:13:28,196 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 1: he came back, and for months they didn't know what 223 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 1: was the matter with him. But I knew he was 224 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 1: in the hospital, and so the song came very easily 225 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 1: to me, But he never heard it, which is the 226 00:13:38,516 --> 00:13:41,556 Speaker 1: sad part of it. I called an old friend, Tom Glazer, 227 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:43,636 Speaker 1: and I sang it to Tom on the phone. I 228 00:13:43,636 --> 00:13:45,836 Speaker 1: would have done that was my father, I'm sure, but 229 00:13:46,116 --> 00:13:49,516 Speaker 1: it's not something that probably a person who's on his 230 00:13:49,596 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: way to dying would want to hear necessarily because the 231 00:13:55,236 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 1: opening of the song it describes your father promising you 232 00:13:59,316 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 1: that you would live in France. Yeah, is that something 233 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:05,156 Speaker 1: your father actually did? Well? It was in sixty eight. 234 00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: It was that summer I met Stephen four days after 235 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:11,916 Speaker 1: my father's death, and I was writing the song and 236 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:14,396 Speaker 1: the first line was my father always promised us that 237 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:16,956 Speaker 1: we would live in Spain. I couldn't rhyme it with 238 00:14:17,116 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: rain or pain, so I had to change. My fair 239 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 1: Lady killed that one for exactly. Yeah, we'll be right 240 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 1: back after a quick break with more from Judy Collins. 241 00:14:34,796 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Bruce Headlam and Judy Collins. 242 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:40,356 Speaker 1: Can you take me back to sixty four where you 243 00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:43,596 Speaker 1: were and how the first town Hall concert came about? 244 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:46,196 Speaker 1: Because it became a famous album of yours. It did 245 00:14:46,276 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 1: become a famous album, and I signed my contract with 246 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 1: Elector in nineteen sixty one on a handshake with Jack Holsman, 247 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 1: and he became my champion. And I had opened for 248 00:14:59,756 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 1: theod Quell at Carnegie Hall. So I had sort of 249 00:15:03,356 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: broken into the big stages in New York. But now 250 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:10,916 Speaker 1: I had a full tell solo concert at town Hall, 251 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:14,916 Speaker 1: and that was after my first three albums, and so 252 00:15:15,076 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: Jack said, well, let's we got to record this. That 253 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 1: was a big deal in those days because there was 254 00:15:20,036 --> 00:15:22,196 Speaker 1: a big truck outside and a lot of people with 255 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:25,556 Speaker 1: a lot of reel to reel tapes going on. I'd 256 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:29,236 Speaker 1: found Phil Oakes's song in the Heat of the Summer, 257 00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:32,876 Speaker 1: and a couple of Dylan songs, primarily the Lonesome Death 258 00:15:32,916 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: of Hattie Carroll, which I had heard him sing actually 259 00:15:36,036 --> 00:15:40,196 Speaker 1: on the town Hall stage in nineteen sixty two, and 260 00:15:40,436 --> 00:15:44,116 Speaker 1: Billy Head Wheeler song, one of which Cold Too I 261 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: have sung consistently from then on. It's the best song 262 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: about people who've been in a job that doesn't exist 263 00:15:51,876 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 1: anymore that I know, So it was really interesting to 264 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: go back and do that. We did this album in 265 00:15:59,036 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 1: a virtual environment, so there was nobody in town Hall 266 00:16:02,476 --> 00:16:05,436 Speaker 1: when we recorded it in January, and I didn't actually 267 00:16:05,476 --> 00:16:07,556 Speaker 1: know they were going to put it on a vinyl 268 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 1: and a CD, but they did, which is good. It's 269 00:16:10,956 --> 00:16:13,316 Speaker 1: good for me. It's good for my fans. If it 270 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:15,156 Speaker 1: hadn't been for the pandemic, would you have had a 271 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:17,836 Speaker 1: crowd there or not? Oh yeah, oh yes, we should 272 00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: mention that was your album of twenty nineteen, which became 273 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 1: your first number one album on the Billboard. Yeah, and 274 00:16:27,796 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 1: you were I think eighty when that happened. That's pretty good. 275 00:16:30,876 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 1: I got a call from Billboard and they said, oh, 276 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:38,116 Speaker 1: you've got your number one lifetime and you're in the 277 00:16:38,156 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 1: bluegrass category. And I said, that's fine. I'm very happy 278 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:44,716 Speaker 1: to know. But remember I've had all those other numbers 279 00:16:44,756 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: to the year. Don't forget about those. Your performances in 280 00:16:49,596 --> 00:16:52,996 Speaker 1: that are I mean, it's beautiful, but particularly this on 281 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 1: time because the album finishes with it, and so it 282 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:59,556 Speaker 1: finishes with the line maybe next year. Yeah, yeah, and 283 00:16:59,676 --> 00:17:01,516 Speaker 1: knowing it was done in the middle of the pandemic, 284 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 1: it's very moving. Yeah, it is. When I was listening 285 00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:08,356 Speaker 1: to the album and I'm listening to you sing both 286 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:11,076 Speaker 1: sides now, which is not the easiest song to sing 287 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:14,156 Speaker 1: in the world. You sing it in the same key. 288 00:17:14,956 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 1: I know. I always sing it in the same key. 289 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 1: A lot of the songs on that album. On the 290 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:24,876 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four are very high and I could sing 291 00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: them no problem. Okay, Well, then we need to know 292 00:17:27,756 --> 00:17:32,116 Speaker 1: your secret, because how can you sing songs like and 293 00:17:32,196 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 1: Winter Sky and Ramblin Boy and all these other great songs? 294 00:17:34,836 --> 00:17:36,356 Speaker 1: You sing in the same key which a lot of 295 00:17:36,356 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 1: performers over the years have to lower it. So what 296 00:17:39,836 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 1: do you do with your voice that allows you to 297 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: do that? Well, today I sat down and practice the 298 00:17:44,916 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: piano and sang did some exercises that I was taught 299 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:51,636 Speaker 1: by my teacher. And if there is a secret, it 300 00:17:51,756 --> 00:17:56,396 Speaker 1: is what Max Margali's taught me, which is that everything 301 00:17:56,516 --> 00:17:59,876 Speaker 1: is about clarity and phrasing. If you listen to a 302 00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: singer and you understand the words, it goes a long 303 00:18:03,396 --> 00:18:06,476 Speaker 1: way to proving that they're singing well. If you don't, 304 00:18:07,156 --> 00:18:11,196 Speaker 1: maybe not so much. And my whole purpose in life 305 00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: is to tell the stories so that they can be understood. 306 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 1: I know some people who have let's say, rugged voices. 307 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 1: They're charming, but the real challenge is to keep telling 308 00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: the stories and telling them understandably. You mentioned Max Margolis, 309 00:18:29,156 --> 00:18:31,476 Speaker 1: he was there vocal coach. Yes, when did you start 310 00:18:31,516 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 1: with him? I started with him in nineteen sixty five. 311 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: You know, as a pianist trained pianist, I sang in 312 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: the choirs and the choruses. But when I got stretched 313 00:18:42,636 --> 00:18:46,036 Speaker 1: out on the road after sixty one, when I began 314 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:48,276 Speaker 1: to make records and have to travel all over the world, 315 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:51,756 Speaker 1: I would lose my voice all the time. And so 316 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 1: by nineteen sixty five it was clear that I had 317 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:57,676 Speaker 1: to do something about it. And I didn't know anybody 318 00:18:57,676 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 1: in New York who would do that. I mean my 319 00:19:00,036 --> 00:19:04,116 Speaker 1: friends who were the folk music community. Nobody was taking 320 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:08,116 Speaker 1: singing lessons, that's for sure. So I called Harry Belafonde 321 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:10,716 Speaker 1: and his somebody who worked with him, and said, oh, 322 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: Harry says, you have to talk to his guitarist, Ray Boguslav, 323 00:19:15,636 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 1: and you have to call Ray because Ray knows about 324 00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:23,116 Speaker 1: these things. So I called Ray Boguslav and he said, well, 325 00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:26,156 Speaker 1: there's only one person that would be worthwhile to work with, 326 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:29,196 Speaker 1: and his name is Max Margolis. So I wrote his 327 00:19:29,236 --> 00:19:32,116 Speaker 1: phone number down. And so at the end of the summer, 328 00:19:33,036 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 1: I was in my apartment on the Upper West Side, 329 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 1: and I picked up the piece of paper with the 330 00:19:39,716 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 1: phone number on it, which I had kept, and I 331 00:19:42,836 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 1: called this number and this man answered, and I said, 332 00:19:46,756 --> 00:19:49,636 Speaker 1: who I was, and I told him who had recommended him. 333 00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 1: And we talked for a little bit and I said, 334 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 1: I'd really like to come and see you and see 335 00:19:53,876 --> 00:19:57,196 Speaker 1: if you can help me out with this problem. And 336 00:19:57,436 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 1: he said what do you do? And I told him 337 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:02,756 Speaker 1: and he said, ah, I'm not interested. You people are 338 00:20:02,796 --> 00:20:08,836 Speaker 1: not serious. And I said, oh, trust me, I'm serious. 339 00:20:09,436 --> 00:20:13,716 Speaker 1: And I begged and pleaded, and finally he said all right. 340 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:19,876 Speaker 1: He said we'll spend a little time together. You can 341 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:22,196 Speaker 1: come and see me. And I said, well, that's wonderful. 342 00:20:22,236 --> 00:20:25,596 Speaker 1: But where do you live? And he told me, and 343 00:20:25,756 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 1: I walked out my front door on the eighth floor 344 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:32,956 Speaker 1: of one sixty four West seventy ninths and I turned 345 00:20:33,076 --> 00:20:35,956 Speaker 1: right and walked past the elevator and rang his bell. 346 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 1: He didn't expect you quite so soon. Now, that's how 347 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 1: right on these two folks were. That I obviously it 348 00:20:45,596 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 1: was Karmick, and it was met and then I studied 349 00:20:48,636 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: with him for thirty two years until he died. And 350 00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:54,796 Speaker 1: the last thing he said to me at Roosevelt Hospital 351 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:59,076 Speaker 1: when he was dying was don't worry. As long as 352 00:20:59,076 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 1: you know that it's clarity and phrasing, you're going to 353 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 1: be fine. How do you practice clarity and phrasing? Well, 354 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:09,236 Speaker 1: you think about clarity about the words. You know, my 355 00:21:09,356 --> 00:21:11,596 Speaker 1: husband will say to me, you've got to be clearer 356 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:13,596 Speaker 1: on that song. You know it's a new song and 357 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:17,276 Speaker 1: you're not finding your way into it. It's not understandable 358 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:20,156 Speaker 1: to me. So that'll do it, you know every time. 359 00:21:21,716 --> 00:21:24,196 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Judy Collins. After 360 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:30,316 Speaker 1: a quick break, we're back with the rest of Bruce's 361 00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: conversation with Judy Collins. One of the things reading your 362 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:37,876 Speaker 1: autobiography that I found fascinating. You lived in the Upper 363 00:21:37,876 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: West Side, but you were really part of the Greenwich 364 00:21:39,516 --> 00:21:45,836 Speaker 1: village scene, and how quickly you got to know seemingly everybody. 365 00:21:45,956 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 1: When you had trouble with your voice, you phoned Harry Bellefonte. 366 00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:54,036 Speaker 1: What was it about the village at that point? I 367 00:21:54,076 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: know there are a lot of talented people there, but 368 00:21:56,276 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 1: everybody seemed to intersect so many times. Was it a 369 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:03,236 Speaker 1: small community, Was it that everybody was drinking together, or 370 00:22:03,636 --> 00:22:07,436 Speaker 1: what was it that made it so connected? You know, 371 00:22:07,476 --> 00:22:09,476 Speaker 1: when you think of the village, it's a very small 372 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: area of physical area. It's only a few blocks. You 373 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:16,116 Speaker 1: would think of it as this huge place, and yes 374 00:22:16,236 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 1: we drank together. It was very much a social club. 375 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:21,556 Speaker 1: But when I got to the village, it was nineteen 376 00:22:21,636 --> 00:22:24,836 Speaker 1: sixty one, and there was a kind of a word 377 00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:27,716 Speaker 1: of mouth around the whole country. The people around the 378 00:22:27,756 --> 00:22:30,836 Speaker 1: clubs would say, to another person who ran a club 379 00:22:30,836 --> 00:22:35,196 Speaker 1: in Chicago, maybe she sold tickets, and they would hire me. 380 00:22:35,236 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: I was there for six weeks at a time, or 381 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 1: sometimes a month and a half two months. In that way, 382 00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 1: the venues got to know that you were doing business, 383 00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:46,796 Speaker 1: so they would hire you. And I went to New 384 00:22:46,836 --> 00:22:50,796 Speaker 1: York for the first time since I was a teenager. 385 00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:54,596 Speaker 1: I went to Greenwich Village and I was the opener. 386 00:22:54,636 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 1: I was the headliner at Gurtis Folk City in April 387 00:22:58,316 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty one. Dylan had been when he was 388 00:23:03,516 --> 00:23:06,316 Speaker 1: called roberts Eyman. He had been in Denver and he 389 00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 1: was hanging out there. He was homeless there. He was 390 00:23:08,636 --> 00:23:12,796 Speaker 1: sleeping on the couches of people who sang at the Exodus, 391 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:15,276 Speaker 1: which is a club that I sang. I opened for 392 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 1: Bob Gibson, who discovered Joan Bias, and then he called 393 00:23:19,876 --> 00:23:22,956 Speaker 1: Jack Holsman and said, I think I've found your Joan Bias. 394 00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 1: It was a very tiny community, although we were stretched 395 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 1: out very sin all over the country. But that's really 396 00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:35,596 Speaker 1: the way it was. The night that I opened as 397 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:40,316 Speaker 1: the headliner at Gertie's Folks, that everybody was there that 398 00:23:40,436 --> 00:23:43,796 Speaker 1: I had ever seen in the record stores, and Pete 399 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:46,156 Speaker 1: Seeger was there, and Peter Paulumer was there, and Dave 400 00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 1: ren Ronk was there. In Ramblin, Jack Elliott was there 401 00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 1: because my opener was a thirteen year old named Arlo Guthrie. 402 00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 1: So they had come to see what Woody's kid was 403 00:23:57,276 --> 00:24:01,036 Speaker 1: going to do. And I've known Arlo for sixty years. 404 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: I was fascinated that this sort of dominant, slightly fearsome 405 00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:08,596 Speaker 1: character for you when you went there was Joan Bias. 406 00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:11,636 Speaker 1: Wasn't Dylan. He was still a kid. Joan was the 407 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:14,476 Speaker 1: one that everybody kind of gravitated to, and she seemed 408 00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 1: to be the charismatic one. Oh and she became a 409 00:24:18,036 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 1: friend very early on and her sister. I was embedded 410 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:25,676 Speaker 1: with this group of people, including people like Phil Oaks, 411 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: who one day he knew that I was recording in 412 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:32,396 Speaker 1: the heat of the summer was a wonderful song by him, 413 00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: and so he knew I was going to be recording 414 00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:40,196 Speaker 1: that month in sixty four, and so he brought Eric 415 00:24:40,236 --> 00:24:43,196 Speaker 1: Anderson over. I didn't know Eric at all, So he 416 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: brought him over, and Eric brushed me aside, raced to 417 00:24:46,516 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 1: the bedroom, sat down, finished writing the words to the song, 418 00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 1: and then came back and sang me Thirsty Boots and 419 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: I said, oh, that's great, I'll record that tomorrow too. 420 00:24:57,076 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: So things like that were always happening. It just they 421 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:04,876 Speaker 1: seemed to happen so rapidly. That's right. Odetta's husband was 422 00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:06,596 Speaker 1: my manager for a while. I don't know if you 423 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:09,036 Speaker 1: know that. I didn't know that, but you guys played 424 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: a very particular role which you don't find in pop 425 00:25:13,076 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 1: music anymore. Before you started writing, you were almost like 426 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:20,356 Speaker 1: the curators of what was happening. You know. You sang 427 00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:22,956 Speaker 1: Dylan songs before Dylan was popular, and he wouldn't have 428 00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 1: had a career without John Byas and Odetta sang everybody's songs. Yeah, 429 00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:32,396 Speaker 1: you became this interpreter of these songwriters people hadn't really 430 00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:34,796 Speaker 1: heard of. I want to just talk about a few 431 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:37,796 Speaker 1: of them because the list is so impressive. How did 432 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,236 Speaker 1: you first meet Ian and Sylvia? Well, they were recording 433 00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:44,916 Speaker 1: for Electra, and they were charming. They had a place 434 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 1: in the village, and you know, Electra was a family 435 00:25:49,516 --> 00:25:52,996 Speaker 1: and Jack Holton and his wife Nina used to do 436 00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 1: these big parties when you had a concert somewhere and 437 00:25:56,276 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 1: we'd meet everybody. Or I'd go to hear Ian and 438 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 1: Sylvia sang somewhere at some club. Or I'd go hang 439 00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:05,076 Speaker 1: out at the gaslight and listen to Dave van Rogue 440 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 1: and there would be Phil Oaks singing and Peter Lafar. 441 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 1: There was always something going on. I listened to the 442 00:26:12,396 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 1: songs and I would pluck out the ones that I 443 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:17,636 Speaker 1: knew would work for me. And I went to see 444 00:26:17,716 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 1: Dylan and it must have been sixty two. It was 445 00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 1: very early on. It was town Hall and he sang 446 00:26:23,156 --> 00:26:25,636 Speaker 1: Masters of War and I just flipped out, and also 447 00:26:26,076 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 1: fairthe Well, and I said, I have to record this guy. 448 00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 1: So then I came back to the East and moved 449 00:26:31,476 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 1: straight into the village just where I knew I had 450 00:26:33,556 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: to be, and I just had to be there in 451 00:26:35,596 --> 00:26:38,516 Speaker 1: a way. Everybody found a way to get into that 452 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:42,476 Speaker 1: recording studio with Elector and make a record. Sometimes they 453 00:26:42,516 --> 00:26:46,236 Speaker 1: didn't stay all that long. I did, But I did 454 00:26:46,276 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 1: get to know people because of that, because that social 455 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:54,676 Speaker 1: life that kind of swirled around Nina and Jack Holsman. 456 00:26:55,076 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: And how did you meet Leonard Cohen? You may be 457 00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 1: the only person not to have had an affair with 458 00:27:00,236 --> 00:27:03,116 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen. Yes, I'm the only person who didn't. Yes, 459 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:06,716 Speaker 1: the only girl in the room left inning. I had 460 00:27:06,756 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 1: a couple of friends. Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner were 461 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:13,076 Speaker 1: friends of mine in those old days in the village. 462 00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 1: And I had a friend named Linda Gottlieban. She and 463 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 1: I and Mary Martin would have dinner, The four or 464 00:27:20,436 --> 00:27:22,876 Speaker 1: five of us would have dinner. Mary Martin worked for 465 00:27:23,556 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 1: Warner Brothers and she was a Canadian and we would 466 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 1: go out to dinner and she would talk about her 467 00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,676 Speaker 1: life in Canada, and she would talk about this guy 468 00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 1: named Leonard and she would say, Leonard's a wonderful poet, 469 00:27:35,916 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 1: and we all love him. We all grew up in 470 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 1: the same neighborhood. That's also where Nancy Bacall came into 471 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:43,916 Speaker 1: my life too, a little after that, and she said, 472 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:47,076 Speaker 1: we're also worried about him because he's a brilliant person. 473 00:27:47,196 --> 00:27:49,676 Speaker 1: He gets some books published and we go to his 474 00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:54,236 Speaker 1: little readings in Montreal. But we don't understand these poems 475 00:27:54,236 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 1: that all, they're so obscure. So this went on for 476 00:27:57,396 --> 00:28:01,956 Speaker 1: a couple of years, in and out of various spots 477 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:05,156 Speaker 1: where we'd have dinner or lunch or whatever. Then in 478 00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:08,236 Speaker 1: sixty six she called me one day and she said, well, 479 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:13,396 Speaker 1: you will be surprised, but he's writing songs and he 480 00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:16,276 Speaker 1: wants to come to see you to record his songs. Now, 481 00:28:16,316 --> 00:28:18,156 Speaker 1: by that time, of course, I had had the hand 482 00:28:18,196 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: in a number of careers, many many artists. I suppose 483 00:28:23,436 --> 00:28:28,116 Speaker 1: it was known that if you could get me on 484 00:28:28,196 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 1: a record on electro, because I was recording every year, 485 00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:34,316 Speaker 1: it would be a good thing for your career. I 486 00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: said to Leonard, you know, Mary told me that you 487 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 1: write songs, and I'd love to hear some, if that's 488 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:42,796 Speaker 1: okay with you. He said, okay, i'll come by the 489 00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 1: next day. So the next day he came by the 490 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,516 Speaker 1: apartment and he said, I can't sing and I can't 491 00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:50,356 Speaker 1: play the guitar, and I don't know if this is 492 00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 1: a song. And he sang me three songs. He sang 493 00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:56,636 Speaker 1: me the Stranger Song, which I've never recorded yet, but 494 00:28:56,796 --> 00:29:01,476 Speaker 1: I will someday, and he sang me dress Rehearsal RAG, 495 00:29:01,556 --> 00:29:04,836 Speaker 1: which is the story of a rehearsal for a suicide, 496 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:08,636 Speaker 1: which I thought was great, and then he sang me Suzanne. 497 00:29:09,796 --> 00:29:14,556 Speaker 1: Now Michael got it right away with Susannie said, oh, 498 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:17,196 Speaker 1: that's it, and I said, I'm not so sure. So 499 00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 1: it wasn't until a day or two later that it 500 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:22,956 Speaker 1: sunk in. That was when I called Jack. We had 501 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:27,556 Speaker 1: been working on In My Life, which was my fifth album, 502 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:31,476 Speaker 1: fifth or sixth, and it was a huge departure from 503 00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 1: everything I'd ever done because now there were no guitars, 504 00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:38,076 Speaker 1: there was no Dylan, there was no phil Oaks. It 505 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 1: was songs from the Marsade, songs from the Pirate Jenny. 506 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 1: It was a huge departure, and in my life a 507 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:47,796 Speaker 1: Beatles song. We should just back up. This was a 508 00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:52,796 Speaker 1: famous theater production Peter Brooks and the story of the 509 00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:58,516 Speaker 1: Marquis de Sade, a fantastic production, and the music was 510 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 1: not distinctly song. So I took the whole soundtrack and 511 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:04,636 Speaker 1: I had them put it on a reel to reel 512 00:30:04,716 --> 00:30:07,276 Speaker 1: for me, and then I edited it with my own 513 00:30:07,596 --> 00:30:09,596 Speaker 1: razor to put the thing to together so that it it 514 00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:12,676 Speaker 1: would make a complete kind of text as a song. 515 00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:18,116 Speaker 1: And then we said, let's get Josh to do this. 516 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:22,196 Speaker 1: Let's get Josh Rudkin to orchestrate these things, Pirate Jenny, 517 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,556 Speaker 1: the music of the mar It Saw in My Life, etc. 518 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 1: And so we'd done all this material. We went to 519 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:30,716 Speaker 1: England actually to record so we could get the folks 520 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:35,116 Speaker 1: who sang for the mar Itsad recordings. And we were 521 00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:37,236 Speaker 1: out there, you know, we were having a very good time. 522 00:30:37,516 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 1: Nobody knew what we were doing and nobody understood why 523 00:30:40,876 --> 00:30:43,996 Speaker 1: we were doing what we were doing, and so we 524 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 1: were very happy with it. But Jack said to me, 525 00:30:47,196 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 1: it's missing something. And that was when Leonard came along. 526 00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:52,916 Speaker 1: I called Jack a couple of days later and I said, 527 00:30:52,956 --> 00:30:57,316 Speaker 1: I think I found them missing something. I had Leonard 528 00:30:57,356 --> 00:31:00,796 Speaker 1: play Suzanne for him and he said, Ah, that's it, 529 00:31:01,316 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 1: that we're done. It's amazing to me at that point 530 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:10,916 Speaker 1: that you'd had five or six records by that before 531 00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:14,876 Speaker 1: you did In My Life, and they had done okay, 532 00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:17,156 Speaker 1: but you didn't have a breakout hit on Eddie of them. 533 00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:20,476 Speaker 1: You were touring a lot. A musician today would not 534 00:31:20,556 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 1: get six kicks at the can with they didn't have 535 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: Jack Holsman on their side. Do you think that was it? Oh? Yeah. 536 00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:28,476 Speaker 1: He was a believer, you know. He said to me 537 00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 1: when Bob Gibson had called him from Denver and said, 538 00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:35,036 Speaker 1: I have found your Joan Baias. That was in fifty 539 00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:38,076 Speaker 1: nine and Bob said, I think you have to come 540 00:31:38,076 --> 00:31:40,396 Speaker 1: out here to Denver and hear her. And he did, 541 00:31:40,636 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 1: but he didn't introduce himself to me. And two years 542 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 1: later he came to see me at Gertie's Folk City 543 00:31:47,276 --> 00:31:50,756 Speaker 1: and said, you're ready to make a record. And years 544 00:31:50,876 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 1: later he said I didn't know that he had come 545 00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:57,276 Speaker 1: out to Denver, And then he called after Sammis had Gertie's, 546 00:31:57,316 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: he called Bob Gibson and said, I have now found 547 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:04,596 Speaker 1: my Judy Collins. And he told me this maybe five 548 00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,196 Speaker 1: years ago. I heard the story from him. He saves 549 00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:11,036 Speaker 1: these little nuggets for me, tells me decades later. I 550 00:32:11,076 --> 00:32:13,116 Speaker 1: was saying, he hung onto that one for a long time. 551 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:16,316 Speaker 1: I had no idea. I said, why didn't you introduce yourself? 552 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:19,356 Speaker 1: He said, because I heard you and I thought she's 553 00:32:19,436 --> 00:32:22,276 Speaker 1: very good. But then he thought I did not know 554 00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: if you were serious, And I said, well, you could 555 00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:28,036 Speaker 1: have asked me. I was always very serious and he said, well, 556 00:32:28,036 --> 00:32:30,276 Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but you see, he had a heart, 557 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:33,956 Speaker 1: also has integrity, and he knows that it takes time 558 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,636 Speaker 1: to build an artist. I would do want to ask 559 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:40,036 Speaker 1: about two more songwriters you champion very early, Randy Newman, 560 00:32:40,356 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 1: How did that song come to your time? Somebody sent 561 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:46,316 Speaker 1: me somebody from his camp sent me that song when 562 00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:50,516 Speaker 1: I was on the verge of recording in My Life album. 563 00:32:50,796 --> 00:32:54,396 Speaker 1: He had recorded it and I heard it and I said, 564 00:32:54,396 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 1: I'm putting this on the album. That's what made the 565 00:32:57,236 --> 00:33:00,116 Speaker 1: decision in his mind that he was going to be 566 00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:04,556 Speaker 1: a songwriter and not go the route of most of 567 00:33:04,556 --> 00:33:07,196 Speaker 1: his relatives who wrote music for movies. As you know. 568 00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 1: That was what did it. That I chose the song 569 00:33:10,156 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: and I sang it, and of course it's a great 570 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 1: and the song is great. Yeah, rain today. I think 571 00:33:17,076 --> 00:33:19,796 Speaker 1: it's going to rain to the pin today. Just an 572 00:33:19,836 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 1: amazing song. But I didn't know him. Somebody brought the 573 00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:27,076 Speaker 1: song to my producer, to Mark Abramson, and kind of 574 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:29,516 Speaker 1: threw it on his desk. And how did you first hear? 575 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:34,396 Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell. Another one of those miraculous moments. I was 576 00:33:34,516 --> 00:33:39,636 Speaker 1: in the village I was hanging out recording, traveling, and 577 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 1: I became friendly with al Cooper, who started blood, sweat 578 00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:49,076 Speaker 1: and tears. Then sixty seven. I was passed out, I'm 579 00:33:49,116 --> 00:33:52,356 Speaker 1: sure one night and it was about three in the morning, 580 00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:55,236 Speaker 1: and I got this call from al Cooper and I said, 581 00:33:55,236 --> 00:33:58,276 Speaker 1: why are you calling me? What is going on? Is 582 00:33:58,316 --> 00:34:00,716 Speaker 1: something wrong? And he said, no, no, no, no no. 583 00:34:00,876 --> 00:34:03,716 Speaker 1: I followed this girl home and she was good looking, 584 00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:06,356 Speaker 1: and she said she was a songwriter, and so I 585 00:34:06,436 --> 00:34:09,396 Speaker 1: figured I couldn't lose, so I followed her home and 586 00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:13,396 Speaker 1: when she got there, she started singing these songs and 587 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:20,116 Speaker 1: I said, to her, hold everything, I have to call Judy. 588 00:34:21,996 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 1: So he called me and I said, why are you 589 00:34:24,836 --> 00:34:26,356 Speaker 1: calling me in the middle of the night, And then 590 00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 1: he said, I have a surprise for you. She does 591 00:34:29,156 --> 00:34:33,396 Speaker 1: write songs and you are going to love them. And 592 00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:35,116 Speaker 1: then he put her on the phone and she sang 593 00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:37,796 Speaker 1: me both sides Now she sang that on the phone. Yeah, 594 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:40,596 Speaker 1: did she play guitar? When she was playing the guitar 595 00:34:40,756 --> 00:34:43,556 Speaker 1: and singing into the phone with al Cooper sitting next 596 00:34:43,556 --> 00:34:47,356 Speaker 1: to her, and you thought what I thought, Oh my god, 597 00:34:47,916 --> 00:34:52,116 Speaker 1: I'll be right over and I took Jack with me 598 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: the next day and I said, this is it, and 599 00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:58,916 Speaker 1: he said, you're right, and that was it. I did 600 00:34:59,036 --> 00:35:02,316 Speaker 1: Michael from Mountains to which I don't sing in concerts, 601 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:05,036 Speaker 1: but it is a great song. And then you later 602 00:35:05,116 --> 00:35:08,516 Speaker 1: did a couple other big songs of hers. I did 603 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:10,996 Speaker 1: Chelsea Morning, Chelsea Morning. It was a hit for you, 604 00:35:11,156 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: and then President Clinton and his wife said they named 605 00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:18,116 Speaker 1: Chelsea Morning after listening to my version of the song. 606 00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:20,796 Speaker 1: But that's a big song that I do. I love 607 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,356 Speaker 1: that that song a lot. Did you maintain a relationship 608 00:35:23,436 --> 00:35:26,556 Speaker 1: with her over the year. Not really. You know, we've 609 00:35:26,556 --> 00:35:30,356 Speaker 1: grown apart, and we also live in different parts of 610 00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:33,796 Speaker 1: the country and she doesn't travel so much. I mean, 611 00:35:33,836 --> 00:35:37,676 Speaker 1: she has had her physical issues, but we have had 612 00:35:37,756 --> 00:35:40,676 Speaker 1: some very nice times. Clive Davis got together a couple 613 00:35:40,676 --> 00:35:43,796 Speaker 1: of years ago. She was still in a wheelchair, but 614 00:35:43,876 --> 00:35:46,756 Speaker 1: she came to the Grammy party that he has before 615 00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:49,676 Speaker 1: the Grammys and I sang both sides now with a 616 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:53,756 Speaker 1: wonderful band for her, and so that was very special. Okay, Well, 617 00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:57,676 Speaker 1: I'm so happy you could fit us in. Oh you 618 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:01,676 Speaker 1: maybe the busiest person I know. What a treat for me. 619 00:36:01,876 --> 00:36:03,916 Speaker 1: I've loved every second of it. Thank you so much 620 00:36:03,956 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 1: for coming down. Thanks that Judy Collins for taking a 621 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,956 Speaker 1: roll down memory Lane with Bruce. You can check out 622 00:36:11,956 --> 00:36:14,556 Speaker 1: a playlist of all of our favorite Judy Collins songs 623 00:36:14,556 --> 00:36:18,076 Speaker 1: and songs inspired by Judy Collums at broken Record podcast 624 00:36:18,196 --> 00:36:21,236 Speaker 1: dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel 625 00:36:21,316 --> 00:36:24,356 Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where we 626 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:27,316 Speaker 1: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow 627 00:36:27,396 --> 00:36:30,396 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced 628 00:36:30,396 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 1: at help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Bentaladay, Eric Sandler, 629 00:36:34,276 --> 00:36:37,956 Speaker 1: and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our 630 00:36:37,996 --> 00:36:42,116 Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Broken Record is a production 631 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:44,876 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others 632 00:36:44,916 --> 00:36:48,916 Speaker 1: from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is 633 00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:52,796 Speaker 1: a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad 634 00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:55,876 Speaker 1: free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for 635 00:36:55,916 --> 00:36:59,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like 636 00:36:59,556 --> 00:37:02,116 Speaker 1: the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us 637 00:37:02,156 --> 00:37:05,356 Speaker 1: on your podcast app. For the music Spychannic Beats, I'm 638 00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:09,516 Speaker 1: justin Richmond four