WEBVTT - Elon's Bad Trip 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.720 Well, Elon Musk gives now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.039 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:15.160 controlled by one man, starting his own artificial intelligence company. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.919 Well, he's a legitimate, super genius. Legitimate, he says. 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.560 He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.000 be different. He'll vote Republican. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.760 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:26.160 on him. 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.960 Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:43.559 Anything he does is fascinating the people. Welcome to Elon Inc. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.280 Where we discuss Elon Musk's vast corporate empire, his latest 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.599 gambits and antics, and how to make sense of it all. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.680 I'm your host, Joel Webber, sitting in for David Papa Duplass. 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:54.520 It's been the talk of the town, so to speak, 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.080 for these last few days. On Saturday night, The Wall 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.120 Street Journal dropped his story detailing Elon musk alleged drug 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.360 use over the past few years and discussed how it 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:07.080 has or hasn't impacted his businesses. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.240 After a report from The Wall Street Journal claimed legal 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.960 drug use was the cause of some of Elon Musk's 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.840 questionable behavior and executives are concerned about the impact on 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.600 his companies, including Tesla and SpaceX. 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.200 Musk has admitted to drug use before, and of course 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:24.840 smoked weed with Joe Rogan that one time during a 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.039 taping of Rogan's podcast, so this wasn't exactly news, but 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.720 the anecdotes raise important questions like could this impact Musk's 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.720 status as a federal contractor, especially given how much business 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.200 SpaceX does with the US government. And we'll dig into 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.839 another headache for Musk and SpaceX. Last week, the National 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.520 Labor Relations Board issued a complaint over the twenty twenty 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:51.080 two firings of SpaceX employees who were critical of Musk's tweeting. 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.640 SpaceX has since sued the NLRB in an attempt to 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.480 halt the case. To discuss this and more, will convene 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.680 Lauren gret Us, Bloomberg's expert on all things SpaceX. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.760 Hi, Lauren, Hi, thanks for having me. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.800 Dana Hole, the world's most tenacious Tesla reporter. Hi, Dana, 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:17.760 good morning. And Max Chafkin, senior reporter at Bloomberg Business Week. Hello. Okay, Lauren, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.760 I'm going to start with you. What did this article 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:25.000 say and was there anything newsworthy in here? For you. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.800 I would say the biggest things that stood out to 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:32.520 me having covered SpaceX and this saga for some time 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.880 was an all hands meeting that occurred in twenty seventeen 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:42.040 in which some executives were concerned about Elon's behavior. Apparently 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.040 he was slurring, and about fifteen minutes into the all 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:50.079 hands Gwynn shot well, the president of SpaceX supposedly had 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:54.040 to step in and take over the all hands meeting, 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.320 and then I think most of the article referred to 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:02.080 or reference the twenty eighteen Rogan podcast incident, which I 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.240 think a lot of people are familiar with, in which 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.960 Elon Musk, you know, openly smoked something on Joe Rogan's podcast. 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.720 It's thought to be marijuana, And that was a little 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.120 more direct and that we all saw that happen, but 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.440 that one was well documented at the time. There was 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.360 a lot of fallout from that. SpaceX or NASA, you know, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.240 got concerned. They did an audit of SpaceX and Boeing's 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.239 safety cultures in the wake of that incident. 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.560 Okay, you mentioned what happened on the Rogan podcast. We're 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:35.600 just going to play that episode so that everybody can 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:36.520 hear it went down. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.960 So is that a joint or is it a siga? 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.720 It's no, okay, it's marijuana inside of tobacco. 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.320 Okay, so it's like plot tobacco. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:49.000 You never had that? 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:50.520 Yeah, I think I tried one once. 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:55.240 Come on, man, you probably can't because stockholders. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.320 Right, I mean it's legal, right. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.880 I think we call that a blunt Dana. So, Dana, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.840 how do you feel like Wall Street journal reporting and 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.680 story compares to the incident that Elon waded through when 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.400 he was on that Rugan podcast. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.280 Yeah, well, the timing of this is very interesting to me. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.600 You know, twenty eighteen, Elon's companies were in a very 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.359 precarious position. SpaceX had not yet flown astronauts to the 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.719 space station. Tesla was struggling to ramp up the Model three, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.800 and the guy was like exhausted trying to keep both 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.719 businesses afloat. It was like a really precarious time. And 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.880 then the Joe Rogan thing was just like the stupidest 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.640 thing he could have done. Five years later, he's like 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.320 the richest man in the world. Both companies are doing great. 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.440 SpaceX is the dominant launch provider, Tesla is like the 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.919 best selling ev maker in the world. Next to BYD. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.280 From where I sit, like Musk amplifying anti Semitism had 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.240 a far more severe market impact in terms of like 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:57.120 stockholders being upset, pension funds writing letters, the stock actually moving. Then, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.320 Like this story about drug use, and I mean, I 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.239 hate to be to break it to like the school 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.279 arms and the audience, but a lot of people in 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.039 tech and finance do drugs like a lot. It is 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.320 a thing like and it's and I'm not trying to 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.839 excuse the behavior, but you know, like Steve Jobs openly 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.080 talked about how doing LSD like helps him become this 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.200 creative genius. And I think that for Musk's fans, the 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.080 fact that he is running all these companies while potentially 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.760 being on drugs is like another sign of how he's 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.159 this like incredible genius and blah blah blah, and it 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.680 just sort of feeds into his aura. 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.360 Okay, so there's you know, things that he've used before 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:41.760 that had been known the ambience, the cannabis, but max LSD, cocaine, ecstasy, mushrooms, ketamine, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.839 some of which are you know, keine in particular, he 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.359 seems to have a prescription to help him do his 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.760 thing with but aren't those isn't that a different nature 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.719 of drug use when we were going into some illegal 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:55.520 territory there. 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.560 I mean, I think kind of what Dan is getting at, like, 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.960 none of this is outside of the norm in Silicon Valley. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:09.599 And if the Texas as described by the Wall Street Journal, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.960 which is a handful of isolated incidents, a Rogan he 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.800 smoked a doobie on the Rogan podcast, he like takes 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.440 some ketamine. There was a party at Art Basel, It 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.120 isn't that much. And I think they're really like two 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.560 possibilities here. One is Elon Musk is doing a lot 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.400 of weird stuff online and we talk about it all 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.760 the time, and some of this stuff is damaging, and 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.560 one way to talk about that if you are a 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.960 Tesla board member, a SpaceX board member, or a critic, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.720 is to blame something like drug use. The other possibility 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.480 is maybe there's more to this story that was unreported, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.080 and like that's kind of what Dana is hinting at. Like, 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.880 I guess that's the other possibility, but as it exists now, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.400 it just doesn't seem all that damning. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.839 I'm going to bring up his response, which he posted 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:56.080 on X on Monday, whatever I'm doing, I should obviously 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:58.840 keep doing it. And then he responded to himself a 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.719 little bit later or actually just another user, and said, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.679 if drugs actually helped improve my net productivity over time, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.280 I would definitely take them. So let's see, he is 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.680 a drug user and is using them a lot. How 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:14.960 does this go over with his people? I mean, the 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:15.920 way you read that's funny. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.280 It sounds like he said as he took a long 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.960 drag from a healthy joint. 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:22.119 It's hard to say. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.960 I mean, I think he's we should also proviso like 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.800 it is not good to violate federal contracting rules if 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.320 you are a federal contractor. But on the other hand, 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.520 it's very hard to see the US government taking any 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.920 kind of serious corrective action because, of course, as we've 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.160 talked about many times, they need SpaceX and and people 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.520 are not necessarily calling into question rockets. And also, newsflash, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.840 not a huge surprise that Elon Musk is not respecting laws, norms, 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:47.840 or regulations. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.120 Dan, do you think there's any version of key man 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.840 risk here? Key man risk being a term that we 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.200 talk about in corporations a lot around corporations, right, if 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.200 if there is a CEO who can no longer or 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.480 do his job or her job, perhaps the company that 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.880 puts the company at risk. Do you think that there's 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.560 any version of this that key man risk plays out 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:11.040 over this scenario. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.960 Well, so you know Tesla and their regulatory filings always 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.080 talk about key man risk. I mean they always say 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.480 we are highly dependent on the services of Elon Musk, 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.520 who was not our full time CEO and runs several 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.520 other companies. And so yeah, I will like roll over 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.920 if like the next you know ten if the ten 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.080 K says and like our CEO is a drug addict 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:32.880 and there's a key man risk that he might go 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.800 to rehab and we'd be without like a CEO. I 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.840 mean that would be amazing. Elon is just not a 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.200 typical CEO, And I think that the trap that a 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:44.160 lot of journalists frankly fall into is like we're trying 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.199 to like establish these norms for him when he has 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.280 broken all the norms and been wildly successful at it, 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.880 and investors care about one thing and that is the 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.640 return on their money. Like since he smoked pot on 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.640 the Joe Rogan Show, which we all know was like 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.360 a big deal, that really like hurt his reputation hurt 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.160 his standing with NASA caused this big fear, Like the 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.280 stock has returned I didn't even check. I don't know, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.480 like what like twelve hundred percent. I mean so like 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.240 fundamentally his the investors are like they are used to 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:17.640 him being a weird guy. 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.000 I love that Dana is a four twenty friendly money manager. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:23.160 Over here saying. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.959 Ever since he started smoking weed, is the performance has improved? 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.240 You know, that's not to say that the I mean, clearly, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.000 it seems like the board has concerns. So you know, 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:34.040 I would love to know more about, like what exactly 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.160 were the concerns. But I mean, obviously I'm not trying 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.400 to be like, do drugs. Drugs are great, But I'm 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.840 just saying that, like a lot of people in power 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.440 use drugs, and a lot of people in power also 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:46.640 use alcoholic as though. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.560 If the financial performance turns around, then the story changes completely. 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.679 And Danna Strander wrote a story about this the other 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:54.840 day and made the point that like this is going 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.400 to wind up in shareholder lawsuits and Andy by going 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.559 around talking about how fun it is to mix red 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.120 wine and ambient, you're essentially giving ammunition to critics. If 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.040 the stock ever takes a dive. Right now, We've got 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.040 a great Now, anyone who wants to explain why companies 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.200 aren't performing well, if they stop performing well, has a 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:12.080 great story to tell. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:13.599 I mean, you'd have to really prove that it was 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.160 because of the drug use. You'd have to like prove that, 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.640 like he made a critical decision that was bad for 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.000 the company because he was on drugs at the time. 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:28.760 Laurena, I want to bring it back to you because 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.520 if there were one company that seemed like it might 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.520 have to deal with this a little bit more than 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.040 anybody else, it would probably be SpaceX because of the 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.720 federal contracts the company has. And one thing that's different 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.199 now than in the broken episode was that, as I 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.040 think Dani alluded to earlier, this is how the US 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:52.360 gets astronauts to the International Space Station. So what might 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.320 happen and unfold at SpaceX or between SpaceX and you know, 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.360 any sort of drug testing that might have to go down. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.280 Well, I think you kind of pointed out there's two 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.800 key things that I want to bring attention to, and 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.760 why it's different now and why I think the response 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:11.520 will be different. Back in twenty eighteen, SpaceX hadn't launched people. 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.240 Yet, so there was still concern about whether. 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.080 Or not this was a good idea using commercial companies 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.320 to actually launch astronauts in the International Space Station. And 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:25.120 so when he took that drag, you know, they were thinking, Okay, 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.840 maybe we do one last gut check in terms of 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.800 this space the safety culture at these companies, and so 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:36.240 that was really what prompted it. Now SpaceX has proven 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.120 that it can safely deliver astronauts to and from the 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.720 International Space Station on a routine basis, so giving up 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.160 that capability is going to be extremely difficult. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.480 The other thing that I think is different is. 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.200 That we saw him take the hit on the Joe 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:57.080 Rogan podcast, like we had direct evidence that he did that, 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.120 Whereas with this Wall Street Journal story, they're referencing that 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.000 twenty seventeen all hands meeting and they even said in 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.360 the story it could. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.880 Not be determined if the reason for his slurring was. 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:13.160 Drugs, And SpaceX did post what appears to be the 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.040 all hands that was referenced in the Wall Street Journal article. 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.720 And having covered Elon for a long time, I watched 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:24.199 that video and it seemed pretty standard awkward public speaking 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.880 Elon to me, But I you know, I can't determine 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:31.360 what was going on before he took the stage in 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:31.800 that video. 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.559 But point being, I don't think we have a direct. 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.560 Piece of evidence as we did with the Joe Rogan 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.319 podcast to prompt another substantial audit like NASA did back 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:44.120 in twenty eighteen. 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.800 Is it clear if Elon has ever taken a drug 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:52.520 test and or passed or failed a drug test? Max 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.160 they've said he has. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.040 I think our assumption is that he has and he's passed. 0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.600 If I'm wrong, please correct me. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:12:59.920 Jenna. 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.280 He tweeted that he has right. He tweeted that he 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.720 like was tested randomly tweeted or x X I'm sorry 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:12.280 X that he's okay, okay, randomly drug tested at SpaceX 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.240 for three years and always passed with flying colors. I mean, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.199 you know, I don't know how. I don't know when 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.280 the most recent test was. I have no idea. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.120 Okay, Now we're going to focus on SpaceX and some 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.760 dueling stories that involve the National Labor Relations Board. The 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.880 NLRB issued a complaint about SpaceX and a labor situation there, 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.240 and is scheduled to hear that case in March. SpaceX 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.320 has since sued the NLRB, saying the agency is unconstitutional 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.600 and the suit should be dismissed. All of this relates 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.280 to a story that Lauren Grush broke for The Verge 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.160 before she joined Bloomberg. So Lauren, we're going to start 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:49.360 with you. 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.720 Yeah, So that was a very intense week back in 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.960 twenty twenty two. Basically I was going home for the day, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.040 which is when you get your best tips, you know, 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.319 and someone leaked to me that there was an internal 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:08.560 letter going around within SpaceX and it was a letter 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.440 posted to their Microsoft Teams channels, and that it was 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:17.000 pretty critical of Elon and they were saying, you know, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:20.080 I think the line that I kept pulling for stories 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.640 was that he was a frequent source of embarrassment for 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.080 the company and that they were calling on SpaceX to 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.040 distance itself from his public comments that they should be 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:33.520 better about sexual harassment. 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.440 How did the company respond. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.320 Yeah, So it was the letter was up for about 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.960 a day and a half before they pulled it down 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:47.600 from the team's channels. And then after we published our report, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.680 I started to hear that a bunch of the people 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.240 associated with the letter were getting fired. And then Gwynn 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.320 Shotwell sent out an email to the company. Really really 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.600 cule your email, in my opinion, because it was basically 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:06.360 saying that these rogue employees. I don't remember the exact text, 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.040 but it was like these rogue employees were distracting all 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.160 of their coworkers and harassing them by telling them to 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.960 sign on to this this letter. You know, it is 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.280 a really very aggressive email painting a negative picture of 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:20.080 the employees. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.560 And so it was a saga that ended. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.320 Very quickly because they swiftly fired the employees. 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.320 And then after that we I spoke with some. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.840 Of the employees who were involved and they told me, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:34.880 you know, how many people actually signed on to the 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.720 letter before it was taken down. It was hundreds of employees. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.320 But then yeah, after they were fired, they were discussing, 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.360 you know, whether that was actually a lawful move for 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.000 them to be terminated because they were simply expressing concerns 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.000 about their workplace conditions. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:56.520 And shotwell, chief operating officer for SpaceX, what is the 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.800 most recent news then that's come out, because that was 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.440 everything that went down. There was twenty twenty two. So 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.800 here we are now twenty twenty four. National Labor Relations 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.720 Board files this complaint which is technically its first move. 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:14.560 What does that complaint say and how has SpaceX responded? 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.400 Yeah, so essentially it confirms what the employees were thinking 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.720 is that they were illegally fired for voicing concerns about 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.640 their workplace conditions. And given the fact that Elon Musk 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.360 is the CEO of the company, you know, what he 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.480 says and does can be considered, you know, affecting people's 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.960 workplace and how they performed that job. And then not 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.640 very long after the complaint was issued, SpaceX sued the 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.120 And this is the part where it gets a little wonky, 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.800 but essentially they were saying that the way that the 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:55.160 NLRB is structured is unconstitutional, and so they're trying to 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.640 basically get out of it. But what was really interesting 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:02.240 about that lawsuit is SpaceX alleges that, you know, the 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:07.400 letter was a source of distraction for SpaceX employees, and 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.679 that the employees who were fired were fired for violating 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.879 various company policies. They didn't go into detail about it, 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.679 but that's that is their defense. That's the biggest defense 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.160 I've seen from SpaceX since this whole thing went down. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.280 Louren, as best as you can tell, what's the vibe 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:29.960 within SpaceX right now. 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.800 I think the vibe, to be honest, is that everybody's 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.080 kind of putting their heads down and working. You know, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.520 this was probably the first time I had seen employees 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:47.360 within the company openly speaking about Elon, and it sadly 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.240 confirmed a lot of their fears, which is that if 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.680 you do that, you'll get fired. And so I think 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.120 the vibe within the company is that they're just. 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.720 Not going to do that anymore. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.480 You know, if they do, I will be surprised, will 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.560 happily report on it. But yeah, I think it confirmed 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.639 most people's suspicions that, you know, you can't speak up 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.480 against the boss, You'll you'll be in trouble. 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.440 The reaction is also just sort of classic in that 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:16.159 now SpaceX is suing the NLRB basically saying that what 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:21.240 they're doing is like unconstitutional overreach and really going like 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.280 guns blazing at the agency itself, which is, you know, 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.840 another another sort of tactic that Elon has never shied 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.080 away from using. He thinks that regulation is run amok 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.640 and there's too many rules, and they're going to really 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:34.320 go all out after this agency. 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.160 And I gotta say, I do think talking about these 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.000 two stories kind of in tanem is instructive. You mean 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.320 the drug use plus this one hundred percent, yeah, Because 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.560 on one hand, you know, there's this kind of like divide 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.760 where where there's like the weird stuff Elon tweets and 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.480 the stuff weird stuff, he says, and then the stuff 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.320 he actually does. And I really think we spend probably 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.040 and not just us, but investors and everybody spend probably 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.359 too much time talking about this, says versus the and 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:05.680 he you know, here we have some like legitimately bad behavior, right, 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.560 we have credible allegations of sexual harassment. There was also 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:13.080 an earlier allegation made by some SpaceX interns of sexual 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.399 harassment at the company. Yes, and the response yeah, and 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.359 the response was, you know, basically to shut it down 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:24.399 to dictatorial. It's it's basically the opposite of what Elon 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.080 Musk says. He is, you know, you had you had 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.680 employees who seem to be and maybe I'm maybe I'm 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.000 putting too much on them, but and Lauren can correct me, 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.399 but seem to be raising number one legitimate questions in 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.760 a way that doesn't doesn't seem from the outside to 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.320 be not constructive. It seems like they were attempting to 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.879 address this real issue. And yeah, and they were and 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.879 they were squashed, right, And that's concerning. And I'd say 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.680 I'd argue more concerning from like a perspective of safety 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.480 and all the things, the other reasons you might be 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.919 worried about Elon must drug use. This should concern you 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.440 because like what happens if there's a legitimate if there's 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.880 a door faull not to you know, make the Bonweing comparison, 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.359 but right there's the doors falling off of these Boeing jets. 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.680 You know what happens if there's a similar safety problem 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:05.560 you have employees calling attention to it. You want to 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.280 have reporting mechanisms. You don't want to have a company 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.800 that just shuts down any descent. It's really bad at 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.760 any company, and it seems especially bad at a company 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.120 like SpaceX and DAN. 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.360 If there is one thing that sort of linked thematically 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.560 some of Elon's company, it would seem to be labor 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.680 relations and sort of the poor state of them. There's 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:27.840 SpaceX and X obviously when it went through the transition 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.720 from Twitter Tesla, we've had multiple in the LRB stories there. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.639 What about the other ones in his universe, you know, 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.359 the Neuralink and the Boring. Is there anything else out there? 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:40.400 Well, I guess I would just say that I think 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:45.159 that fundamentally, a lot of employees really take pride in 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.959 their work, particularly engineers. I mean, these are mission driven companies. 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.199 That have within Elon's companies. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.680 In Elons companies, yeah, I mean, these are mission driven 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.639 companies and people are really drawn to the mission, and 0:20:55.680 --> 0:21:00.439 people really like working there in general, and they where 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.239 the SpaceX jackets and the Tesla ball caps, and like 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.600 there's just like an enormous amount of pride. I think 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.000 you have to separate out like working for the company 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.800 and working for Elon. But yeah, I mean these are 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.199 not unionized workforces, and like any effort to unionize or 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.640 criticize your leader is like completely shut down, like almost instantly, 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.680 which is what we've seen at all of his companies. 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.320 I mean, I can't speak to Neural Lincoln Boring, but 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:26.840 like you can't criticize the boss basically. 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.439 I also think the through line through these two stories 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:34.080