Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Coolbyble Did Cool Stuff, the podcast
Speaker 2: where I talk about how I worked all day yesterday,
Speaker 2: so I made cookies and you're close to midnight.
Speaker 1: What kind of bake cookies?
Speaker 2: Really bad? Chocolate chip cookies that I don't specifically recommend
Speaker 2: the recipe of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like chocolate chip cookies are just automatically not bad.
Speaker 2: Oh I ate them all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I allowed to talk yet Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean we'll introduce you in a minute, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. But in the meantime, you guys, if you
Speaker 3: haven't read the title or the promotional material, you can
Speaker 3: just guess whose voice is speaking. It's hard to ultimately,
Speaker 3: truly profoundly mess up a chocolate chip cookie because you
Speaker 3: still got sugar and you got chocolate in there. But
Speaker 3: I very much am feeling I'm very much in my
Speaker 3: cozy baking fuck around and find out era where I
Speaker 3: want to just see And it feels a little wasteful
Speaker 3: at some point because sometimes I mess up the cookies.
Speaker 3: But I keep specifically trying to do cookies, and I've
Speaker 3: landed on a pretty good peanut butter cookie gluten free.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, see it wouldn't work for me because I'm
Speaker 2: vegan and I don't believe there's such thing as a
Speaker 2: good vegan gluten free baking. I think you can do
Speaker 2: one or the other.
Speaker 3: You can't do both. Yeah, you can't do both. That's
Speaker 3: just sad.
Speaker 2: If you're listening and you do both, I applaud your.
Speaker 1: Bevery my very good friend Lacey, who makes baked goods
Speaker 1: and is the reason why I don't make my own
Speaker 1: baked goods anymore, because why would I make my own
Speaker 1: when I could eat the ones that she makes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she makes all kinds of things for people with diet
Speaker 1: he restrictions and allergies and is extremely talented, So it
Speaker 1: does exist.
Speaker 3: She probably is extremely talented. I will pause it though,
Speaker 3: that the vegan and gluten free double header and one
Speaker 3: it's hard, hard, yeah to nail. But if you are
Speaker 3: vegan and gluten free, boy, I bet that cookie tastes
Speaker 3: so damn good.
Speaker 2: That's a decent point.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is a show called Cool People Did
Speaker 2: Cool Stuff, and it's sometimes about cookies. This time it's
Speaker 2: not as much about cookies, though it's clearly a little
Speaker 2: bit about cookies. And I'm your host Margaret Kiljoy and
Speaker 2: every week we talk about some cool people did cool stuff,
Speaker 2: like me for making cookies. I didn't have any almond
Speaker 2: milk that was playing. I didn't realize I was out,
Speaker 2: so I use chocolate oat milk and it's why they
Speaker 2: tasted weird. That's really interesting. But my guest today is
Speaker 2: the one and only Katie Stole, who is the well hello,
Speaker 2: the host of even More News, a show that is okay.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because you posit that this is the only
Speaker 2: news show, even More News, but in the title it
Speaker 2: implies that you're lying.
Speaker 3: It does imply that, doesn't it. But we never get
Speaker 3: to the bottom of that.
Speaker 2: There's only one way to find out. It's even more.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I'm pretty sure it's the first and
Speaker 3: only news podcast, but I don't listen to podcasts, so
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no one, no one.
Speaker 3: That's also a lie. I listened to podcasts.
Speaker 2: Every day.
Speaker 3: Someone's coming with me on my walks in the morning, and.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely walking my dog without a podcast. Whatever I do,
Speaker 2: look at the choice.
Speaker 3: This just a waste of time. Enjoy nature please.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also with us is our producer Sophie Hi.
Speaker 1: Sophie Hi just want to shout out my friend again
Speaker 1: space lace gluted free confections.
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I'm gonna write that down.
Speaker 1: She's she She is a beautiful.
Speaker 2: What city are we talking about?
Speaker 3: For people? She's the Pacific North Delivery.
Speaker 2: But she ships like they go in the mail.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm not one hundred percent sure about that,
Speaker 1: but if you're ever in the Pacific Northwest, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of markets and stuff. Okay, and yeah, I just
Speaker 1: want to shout her out of the shipping she made
Speaker 1: the most fantastical like shinned heel cake gluten free with nothing,
Speaker 1: with nothing I'm allergic to for my birthday.
Speaker 3: It was very beautiful, nice.
Speaker 4: Nice.
Speaker 2: Our audio engineer is Daniel, which is not Ian. So
Speaker 2: every want to say hi to Daniel.
Speaker 1: Hi Danel, Hi Daniel Danel, but also Hi Ian, I
Speaker 1: miss you.
Speaker 2: So yeah Hi Ian?
Speaker 3: Okay, Hello Ian oar.
Speaker 2: The music was written for us by Unwoman high on Woman. So, Katie, yeah,
Speaker 2: you tricked me into I was on your podcast an
Speaker 2: hour ago and you, yeah, as part of the interview,
Speaker 2: asked me what today was going to be about. But
Speaker 2: I'll pretend like you don't know. Yeah, you ever heard
Speaker 2: of the British Empire. You know what that does.
Speaker 3: Ring a bell. I'm vaguely familiar with the concept of
Speaker 3: the British Empire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an episode of How Cool. Wait, no,
Speaker 2: the people who follow Oh you ever heard of the
Speaker 2: Easter Rising?
Speaker 3: I have. I have heard of the Easter Rising.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I guess it's not particularly obscure, but we're
Speaker 2: going to talk about it anyway because it's fucking cool.
Speaker 2: Today's topic is the Easter Rising. It's when a motley
Speaker 2: collection of rights poets, musicians, working class, trade union organizers, queers, suffragettes,
Speaker 2: school teachers, sick and disabled folks, and dropouts from the
Speaker 2: aristocracy took over the capital of Dublin in Ireland, the
Speaker 2: second city of the British Empire, and did their part
Speaker 2: in tearing apart the largest empire of the world's ever known.
Speaker 2: Like when I say that, in nineteen thirteen, the British
Speaker 2: Empire ruled more than four hundred million people, Around twenty
Speaker 2: three percent of the world's population was under.
Speaker 3: The staggering number. I know. It's like, I know, so
Speaker 3: many problems today could be traced to them. So that's
Speaker 3: a fun thing always, yeah, in the back of your mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even a lot of the stuff that's America's fault,
Speaker 2: it first comes from being Britain's fault.
Speaker 3: It's like, because who are we without Britain?
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, free? Well probably not in North America. Yeah,
Speaker 2: those who rose during the Easter Rising didn't agree about everything.
Speaker 2: They didn't even agree actually about most things, including very
Speaker 2: important things. They were They disagreed on some pretty major
Speaker 2: and important issues. They agreed on one thing and that
Speaker 2: was enough for them. The one thing they agreed on
Speaker 2: was fuck the British Empire.
Speaker 3: It's a good thing to agree on.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a pretty you think it's a universal
Speaker 2: but you know, it took a lot of you would think,
Speaker 2: a lot of shooting to yeah, to get there, to
Speaker 2: get free of them. I have done the overall context
Speaker 2: of Ireland and British and the British colonization of Ireland
Speaker 2: an awful lot on this show. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: do the absolute speed run. There's an island called Ireland,
Speaker 2: wild and untamed and freeish and generally lacked centralized government.
Speaker 2: For a very long time, folks came together every now
Speaker 2: and then to do shit like fight off the Viking
Speaker 2: slavers and shit. Then the British colonized it. Then the
Speaker 2: British genocided it twice. First when the fuck Oliver Cromwell
Speaker 2: since his troops around to just like murder everyone, and
Speaker 2: second when English capitalism colonization watched everyone starve in the
Speaker 2: middle of the nineteenth century, and in the process they
Speaker 2: slandered one of the world's most perfect foods, the potato.
Speaker 2: The potato who was not at fault. It was a
Speaker 2: thing that fed poor people very well until all of
Speaker 2: a sudden one year it couldn't keep up because there
Speaker 2: was a blight, and then because a capital at whatever.
Speaker 2: We've talked about this bunch of times on the show.
Speaker 2: Every generation or two, the Irish would revolt, and it
Speaker 2: went this way for centuries. He usually went badly for
Speaker 2: the Irish. In the end, Ireland was and is very
Speaker 2: divided between Catholics and oppressed majority and Protestants and empowered minority.
Speaker 2: Although both there are both Catholics and Protestants on both
Speaker 2: sides of every single one of these fights, and for
Speaker 2: centuries the difference between the two politically wasn't necessarily a
Speaker 2: big deal until seventeen ninety eight, when England bribed the
Speaker 2: Protestants by giving them more power over the Catholics. Furthermore,
Speaker 2: Ireland was colonized and oppressed through landlord And this is
Speaker 2: the part that doesn't get talked about as much unless
Speaker 2: you are reading actual Irish history by Irish people. Most
Speaker 2: people didn't own their land. It was generally owned by
Speaker 2: British people. Occasionally it was owned by Irish Protestants, and
Speaker 2: even more rarely and later it was owned by rich
Speaker 2: asshole Irish Catholics. But that was an awful lot of
Speaker 2: the fight against colonization is. People weren't like, oh, we
Speaker 2: specifically are mad at England. Usually they were like, all
Speaker 2: I have on a landlord, this sucks. I liked when
Speaker 2: I owned my land.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's easy to misplace your anger at well,
Speaker 3: I'm sure that they sucked to The landlords were bad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but when you stopped there instead of going further
Speaker 4: back right, And it was it was that the landlordism
Speaker 4: was the symptom, yes of the colonization.
Speaker 2: It was the way in which it expressed. It was
Speaker 2: one of the many ways of the expressed. It was
Speaker 2: also shit like you weren't allowed to have a mustache,
Speaker 2: which the English didn't have a word for. Mustache. Yet
Speaker 2: I can't even remember what that call today. This isn't
Speaker 2: a different script that I wrote about this.
Speaker 3: It was like trying to couple with something clever. But
Speaker 3: they didn't have a word for mustache. They just didn't
Speaker 3: even accept that, we're not going to acknowledge the existence
Speaker 3: of you, that people can grow hair there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Ireland, most of it is now its own
Speaker 2: country these days, although obviously capitalism is still extracting the
Speaker 2: wealth of the working class. But they're their own country,
Speaker 2: mostly because around the turn of the twentieth century, a
Speaker 2: fuck ton of people put a fuck ton of work
Speaker 2: in and a fuck ton of blood and they built
Speaker 2: up powerful oppositional groups of all kinds. In nineteen sixteen,
Speaker 2: in the middle of World War One, while the British
Speaker 2: were busy, several groups revolted in what's called the Easter
Speaker 2: Rising because it took place on Easter. Well, I actually
Speaker 2: technically took place on Easter Monday instead of Easter Sunday,
Speaker 2: because they were like.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, oh no, I that was just something that
Speaker 3: I always struck me. I was like, oh, Eastern Monday,
Speaker 3: not Easter Sunday. But you have more information about why.
Speaker 2: Were being clever. They were like, it's too obvious that
Speaker 2: we're gonna do it on Easter side, because yeah, they
Speaker 2: knew the Brits were onto them, and the Brits were
Speaker 2: absolutely onto them, and it was complete. The Brits were
Speaker 2: like literally like, we're going to wait till the holidays
Speaker 2: over before I rest all these people. And then they
Speaker 2: were like, oh, whoops, they acted on the holiday, and
Speaker 2: but they acted on the Monday instead of the Sunday
Speaker 2: to kind of like shake things up a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: Also, then they got their Easter Sunday.
Speaker 2: That's true. Well, actually they spent most of it making bombs.
Speaker 3: But wait, is that YouTube song Sunday Bloody Sunday?
Speaker 4: Actually, wow, that's different Easter so Ireland has four Bloody Sundays. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 4: I believe that song is referencing one of the like
Speaker 4: ones from like I want to say, the seventies. Yeah,
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about one of the bloody Sundays, okay,
Speaker 4: but unfortunately, well whatever, we'll get to it. Two of
Speaker 4: them take place in the nineteen tens. Only one of
Speaker 4: them's in this particular script.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: I had to like look up be like wait, how
Speaker 2: any of these fucking bloody Sundays are there?
Speaker 3: Makes sense? Okay, So one of them was a bloody
Speaker 3: because I guess Monday, bloody Monday doesn't work as well.
Speaker 2: That is like a fucking Monday. It's a very natural
Speaker 2: thing to say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, who does it? I hate fucking Mondays?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Garfields over here. And so in nineteen sixteen
Speaker 2: they had the Easter Rising. It didn't go well for
Speaker 2: anyone involved, you know, I mean like, it didn't even
Speaker 2: go well for the people putting it down because a
Speaker 2: lot of them got shot too. It was a bit
Speaker 2: of a shit show and it got a lot of
Speaker 2: people killed, but it lit the fuse. Within a few years,
Speaker 2: the Irish War for Independence was raging, which drove the
Speaker 2: British to the bargaining table. The British very good at
Speaker 2: divide and conquer. They offered a compromise treaty that told
Speaker 2: the Irish they could mostly have their country, but they
Speaker 2: had to swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown,
Speaker 2: and they had to let the elector out of Northern Io,
Speaker 2: which was way more Protestant and colonized, decide its own fate. Basically,
Speaker 2: they were like, we're going to partition Ireland.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: About a third of the country was like, no fucking deal.
Speaker 2: We're not fucking swearing an oath of allegiance to the
Speaker 2: fucking crown. What are you talking about. They wanted full freedom,
Speaker 2: so they fought a civil war against it. The compromise side,
Speaker 2: the pro treaty side, won this war in nineteen twenty three,
Speaker 2: and the Irish Republic as we know today was born, well,
Speaker 2: actually was the Irish Free State until nineteen thirty seven,
Speaker 2: but whatever. And then the troubles with a capital t
Speaker 2: started because an awful lot of Ireland was like, but
Speaker 2: what if we actually still have all of Ireland as
Speaker 2: a republic the fucking plan. What if we stuck to
Speaker 2: the fucking plan? You know, Yeah, how about the rest
Speaker 2: of our island? Yeah, we'd like that too, please, And
Speaker 2: an awful lot of the rebels also realized what a
Speaker 2: lot of the older rebels realized. Until you get rid
Speaker 2: of capitalism, you're not actually getting rid of colonization.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: After nineteen sixteen and after the nineteen twenty one treaty,
Speaker 2: politics in Ireland gets really really messy. You lose track
Speaker 2: of good guys and bad guys really quickly. And in
Speaker 2: the middle of the twentieth century, you've got a lot
Speaker 2: of like cool people doing questionable things, or questionable people
Speaker 2: doing cool things, or my favorite, stopped clocks who are
Speaker 2: currently telling the right time. That's gonna be the next
Speaker 2: podcast that I'm going to run past everyone. This is
Speaker 2: stop clocks, Puck. That'll be terrible all the time. The
Speaker 2: horrible right wing people were technically right. Never mind, I
Speaker 2: retract Sophy gave you a look. Yeah, Sophy's actually pretty
Speaker 2: good at pretty good at a job. Like knowing that
Speaker 2: he's very good.
Speaker 3: You just have to look at our face.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which you all can't do. Ah No, but we
Speaker 2: get reason to run a pot the treat Yeah, teen sixteen.
Speaker 2: Though these people aren't perfect, but there is a clear
Speaker 2: cut case for their anti colonial revolution, and these are
Speaker 2: the people who did the revolution. They lost, and by
Speaker 2: losing they won. Yeah, so the Easter Rising, I will
Speaker 2: contend it's cool people who do cool stuff.
Speaker 3: I'll accept that contention. Excellent because we're here to talk
Speaker 3: about it. So yeah, no, totally, no, that's it. That's
Speaker 3: I told you about the No. That was the big
Speaker 3: bird's eye view and the personal part of it. I
Speaker 3: shook hands with my great great uncle who was shot
Speaker 3: in the leg while fighting in the Rising. It was
Speaker 3: this one hundredth birthday in Galway, and I'm sure I've
Speaker 3: brought this up on the show before, but fuck it.
Speaker 3: He and all of his brothers except my great grandfather,
Speaker 3: who'd fled poverty and made his way to Boston, were
Speaker 3: locked up for a while for their role in the Rising.
Speaker 3: And I think he's one of the coolest people I've
Speaker 3: ever met. And so he's not named in this story,
Speaker 3: but he's a this story and it makes me part
Speaker 3: of it. I love that.
Speaker 2: Okay, the Easter Rising a tale of two movements is
Speaker 2: not what we're going to call the show, but of
Speaker 2: the episode.
Speaker 3: But yeah, in progress.
Speaker 2: Yeah they're not opposing movements, but they're very distinct, and
Speaker 2: it's a good way to understand the Easter Rising. You've
Speaker 2: got the Irish labor movement, which is heavily syndicalist, and
Speaker 2: you've got Irish nationalism. One group is fighting for workers'
Speaker 2: rights against bosses, and the other group fought for the
Speaker 2: reintroduction of the Irish language and against the Anglicization of Ireland.
Speaker 2: And along the way they actually fought each other a
Speaker 2: couple of times because some of the Irish Nationalists were capitalists,
Speaker 2: and you know a lot of them socialists were not
Speaker 2: capital none of them actually were.
Speaker 3: None of them. Yeah yeah, but I thought, uh, this
Speaker 3: is a four parter by.
Speaker 2: The way, everyone is listening, and it's going to be
Speaker 2: worth it. But the awkward part is part ones about
Speaker 2: the nationalists. Okay, then we'll start with the latter restoring.
Speaker 3: This is good because to be honest, I find this
Speaker 3: whole period and all of this very interesting, but it
Speaker 3: does get confusing when you hear about it and learn
Speaker 3: about it and trying to keep track of it. So
Speaker 3: this is very helpful and I already know it is
Speaker 3: going to be and I'm taking lots of notes for myself.
Speaker 2: No, I'm glad and honestly like, it's funny. I've made
Speaker 2: a couple like every now and then someone's like, oh,
Speaker 2: are you gonna do the you know, the troubles in
Speaker 2: Northern Ireland. And I actually did end up covering a
Speaker 2: fair amount because we did an episode about I wanted
Speaker 2: a way to talk about hunger strikes since we did
Speaker 2: an episode of hunger strikes and the two groups we
Speaker 2: talked about the most was Northern Ireland IRA of much
Speaker 2: later than what we're talking about today, and then also
Speaker 2: Palestinian Freedom Fighters, oh yeah, and because those are two
Speaker 2: groups that did amazing work with hunger strikes. But overall
Speaker 2: I've been like, I don't want to keep track of
Speaker 2: who the provos are versus the real IRA, versus the
Speaker 2: you know, there's a million Iras and so instead what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to talk about today is the beginning. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously it's not the beginning beginning, but it's the beginning
Speaker 2: of a lot of the modern political movements, and it's
Speaker 2: the stuff that all of them mythologize and draw from.
Speaker 2: So the nationalists, first of all, Ireland's having this problem
Speaker 2: right now where there's a bunch of Irish nationalists in
Speaker 2: a bad way who are trying to like kick out
Speaker 2: the immigrants and be all right wing and shitty. And
Speaker 2: so I want to point out that a fucking ton
Speaker 2: of the Irish nationalists who fought for and got Irish
Speaker 2: freedom were not one hundred percent Irish by blood. They
Speaker 2: weren't like pure Gaelic Catholics or whatever the fuck some
Speaker 2: of them were. As often as not, they were Protestants.
Speaker 2: They were Anglo Irish, they were Spanish Irish, they were
Speaker 2: born in England, born in the US, born in Scotland,
Speaker 2: of direct Welsh defense descent, with no Irarish blood, et cetera,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And this is not to invalidate these Irish
Speaker 2: nationalists who are not like pure blah blah blah. It's
Speaker 2: to point out to anyone who's using their legacy to
Speaker 2: promote some like blood and soil, kill all the foreign immigrants, nonsense.
Speaker 2: Anyone who's doing that as a fascist, who should be shot.
Speaker 2: The history of Ireland is the history of the galicization
Speaker 2: of immigrants and or colonization, and so I like the
Speaker 2: galicization of immigrants more I gus don't live there, but yeah,
Speaker 2: fuck whatever, fuck the fascists, but fuck.
Speaker 3: The fascist seems like pretty standard. And I've got family
Speaker 3: that lived there and they would agree with you, fullheartedly,
Speaker 3: full threatedly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and overall you will find that in a lot
Speaker 2: of I mean, Ireland is kind of standing alone among
Speaker 2: Western European powers right now and supporting the Palestinian people
Speaker 2: and anti Camial struggle more generally. So that said, some
Speaker 2: of these nationalists that we're going to talk about are
Speaker 2: right wing as hell and we're just stopped clock about
Speaker 2: Irish independence. However, some of them were socialists and internationalists
Speaker 2: as well as being nationalists, which is contradictory, but it's
Speaker 2: not we'll talk about it a little bit. Overall. I
Speaker 2: would say that this group existed before this is the
Speaker 2: I spent so much time, like trying to research academic
Speaker 2: articles about how to classify these Irish nationalists into modern
Speaker 2: right and left politics. Right and left were not clear
Speaker 2: cut in Irish politics at the time and don't map
Speaker 2: easily to modern political understandings. We're going to start with
Speaker 2: not the coolest, but one of the weirdest. We're going
Speaker 2: to start with a woman named mod Gone mod Gone Yeah,
Speaker 2: like go nne oh cool. So she's weird as hell.
Speaker 2: She was born in eighteen seventy seven in England and
Speaker 2: she's of Anglo Irish descent. But when she was five,
Speaker 2: her army officer father was stationed in Dublin, so she
Speaker 2: moved over there. Like several of our heroes today, she
Speaker 2: was a sickly child and she was sick with I
Speaker 2: don't know how well you know this show, but I
Speaker 2: think Sophie knows what she was sick with. She was
Speaker 2: sick with friend of the pod tuberculosis.
Speaker 3: To say, consumption, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yes, actually that is yeah, yeah, it is consumption.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But since she was rich as shit, she didn't die
Speaker 2: of it. I mean a lot of richest shit people
Speaker 2: died of it too, but mostly poor people died of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Instead, she like you know, like traveled around and like
Speaker 2: went to like fancy like spas for her health and stuff.
Speaker 2: And since she was rich as shit, she just like
Speaker 2: traveled around the world. She's an archetype. There's so many
Speaker 2: archetypes in today's stories. She's like, hello, I am a beautiful,
Speaker 2: sickly woman with tons of money and archetype that will
Speaker 2: exist for a long long time.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, frail woman of.
Speaker 2: Means yeah absolutely. And she's like she starts fucking the
Speaker 2: right wing Irish poet Yates and he's like obsessed with her.
Speaker 2: She tries to marry her like four times, and every
Speaker 2: time she's like, nah, I'll fuck you, but I'm not
Speaker 2: going to marry you. You know, yeah smart, And she
Speaker 2: gets into all him as occultism shit like the Hermetic
Speaker 2: Order of the Golden Dawn, which is okay, yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2: Then this is the weirdest part of the whole fucking
Speaker 2: four part. She starts fucking this other guy and she
Speaker 2: has this kid, and then her kid dies. It's tragic.
Speaker 2: So her and this guy fuck next to her kid's sarcophagus. Oh,
Speaker 2: so that the soul of her dead kid could be
Speaker 2: reincarnated into the next kid she had.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's aology. Scientology as fuck. Now did you
Speaker 3: say she was of the Protestant or the Catholic person?
Speaker 1: She was like, what if scientology was horny?
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically saying all right, well you know what I'm not.
Speaker 3: Here's kak Shamer or whatever. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she she does so much for Irish nationals.
Speaker 2: She's called the Irish Joan of arc Oh. Usually they
Speaker 2: don't talk about the sarcophagus part incarnation fucking part.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's the thing that got me looking.
Speaker 3: Enough, it's the hook.
Speaker 2: And so she moves into Irish nationalism and she does
Speaker 2: cool shit like write articles called the Famine Queen about
Speaker 2: Queen Victoria. Just a sick and metal and accurate name
Speaker 2: for Queen Victoria.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And at one point a newspaper was like talking shit
Speaker 2: on her. So this other Irish nationalist, Arthur Joseph Griffith,
Speaker 2: who will talk about a little bit more a second
Speaker 2: he quote thrashed the journalist with a stick, I believe
Speaker 2: a Shealaly like an Irish walking stick slash club. And
Speaker 2: later Arthur's going to go on and start the political
Speaker 2: party Shin Fein, which is still a very major part
Speaker 2: of Irish politics. And what also is a part of
Speaker 2: major Irish politics is goods and services and consumerism, which
Speaker 2: also has infiltrated this very show starting now and we're
Speaker 2: back so mod gone Easter Sunday nineteen hundred, she meets
Speaker 2: with fourteen of her friends. They're all women, and their
Speaker 2: plan was that they like they got together to like
Speaker 2: make a present. They were going to get an engraved
Speaker 2: blackthorn stick of Chaleley to give to Arthur, basically being like, hey,
Speaker 2: thanks for beating the shit out of that dude. Like,
Speaker 2: here's another stick for beating the shit out of the
Speaker 2: next dude, which is cool. I actually have no notes here.
Speaker 2: But then they talked way more than that, and they
Speaker 2: wound up putting together the seeds of an organization called
Speaker 2: the Daughters of Ireland. It was named in Irish and
Speaker 2: some of the things I wrote down in English and
Speaker 2: some of them I wrote down in Irish, and this
Speaker 2: one I wrote down in English. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: call it the Daughters of Ireland throughout. And they get
Speaker 2: together and they're like, all right, we're gonna have an
Speaker 2: all women nationalist groups. Is around the time. They're not
Speaker 2: the first Irish nationalist group, but they're you know, the
Speaker 2: Gaelic League comes a few years before them, but they're
Speaker 2: ahead of the curve. The fucking Queen is visiting and
Speaker 2: she's trying to get irishmen to go join their war
Speaker 2: in South Africa against the Boers, which are a white
Speaker 2: ethnic minority in South Africa. So the Daughters are like, well,
Speaker 2: we don't want Irish people to go fight in your
Speaker 2: fucking war. So they organized a march of children, thirty
Speaker 2: thousand children marching against the queen base. And then afterwards,
Speaker 2: isn't that sick based?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Thirty thousand kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then they had a day in the park
Speaker 2: with a picnic and like anti recruitment speeches and it
Speaker 2: went really well, I mean obviously went really well. They
Speaker 2: managed to get thirty thousand fucking kids out and so
Speaker 2: they became a permanent organization. They use the funds that
Speaker 2: they raised for this. They were like, you know, fuck it,
Speaker 2: we're now Daughters of Ireland. We exist. Also, Queen Victoria
Speaker 2: died the next year. Is it a coincidence? Yes, but yes,
Speaker 2: But I like to think the stress of seeing all
Speaker 2: those kids marching against her, just did he in?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, the stress of the kids. I mean that's
Speaker 3: a terrifying sighte yeah, very unsettling, thirty thousand kids marching,
Speaker 3: I know, thinking that, would you would carry that, it
Speaker 3: would haunt you, Yeah, but not for very long, no,
Speaker 3: just about it because you'll die next year. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: And I like to think that they chanted Vickis in
Speaker 3: the box the way that.
Speaker 2: But anyway, Uh so they get together as the Daughters
Speaker 2: of Ireland and their goal is to assert Irish independence.
Speaker 2: They want control over the island. They want return to
Speaker 2: the Irish language and the decolonization of culture, the de
Speaker 2: anglicization of their culture. But they're also so kind of
Speaker 2: I can't specifically say, like right wing, but one of
Speaker 2: their things was that they had a particular hatred of
Speaker 2: English low culture, of like cussing and like lewd stuff
Speaker 2: and like body theater and all that, unlike the enlightened
Speaker 2: Irish culture that they were all yes, yeah, it's rich bitches, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, maybe only mogone. But they
Speaker 2: did a lot of fucking work. They put on plays,
Speaker 2: they taught classes for kids and adults both. They protested
Speaker 2: British army recruitment. They published a newspaper called The Women
Speaker 2: of Ireland, and they were one part among many, of
Speaker 2: a growing nationalist movement and people trying to figure out
Speaker 2: whether their right or left wing. They either argue about
Speaker 2: it or stay the fuck out of it. The nationalism
Speaker 2: of oppressed group is fundamentally a different thing than the
Speaker 2: nationalism of an oppressor group, but they're related, and we'll
Speaker 2: talk more about that later. I just want to put
Speaker 2: pain in that concept, because if I'm going to be
Speaker 2: talking about nationalists, I think it's worth pointing out that
Speaker 2: this is a oppressed minority saving a fucking language. Because
Speaker 2: there was the Gaelic League formed in eighteen ninety three
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the nineteenth century, So like eighteen hundred,
Speaker 2: forty five percent of Irish people were brought up speaking
Speaker 2: Irish at home. By eighteen ninety one, three point five
Speaker 2: percent were raised speaking Irish. Wow, so a couple generations
Speaker 2: just trashed Irish as a language. The League understandably, it
Speaker 2: was actually way more popular. Not in the Irish speaking
Speaker 2: Galtech to the northwestern part of Ireland was more Irish
Speaker 2: speaking right than the rest because it anglicized less and later,
Speaker 2: but the Gaelic Lee was more popular in the eastern part.
Speaker 2: That was like more Irish English speaking because people were like, well,
Speaker 2: we need to get this shit back right. It's compared
Speaker 2: to the people are like, oh, we just never stopped.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the Gaelic League pushed Irish classes. It sent students
Speaker 2: to the Gaeltech, the Irish being part of the country,
Speaker 2: to be immersed in their own language. Their first newspaper
Speaker 2: was called The Sword of Light, and it was edited
Speaker 2: by Patrick Pierce, who's considered the leader of the Easter
Speaker 2: Rising by many standards. We'll talk about him more in
Speaker 2: a minute, and its motto was shin fain, which means
Speaker 2: we ourselves. I was reading people who were like, it's
Speaker 2: often translated as like we by ourselves, like us doing it,
Speaker 2: just us, fuck everyone else, And then like other more
Speaker 2: modern translators are like, that's actually kind of a mistranslation
Speaker 2: is more like we ourselves anyway.
Speaker 3: Whatever I feel like, that's yeah, that's a distinction us
Speaker 3: together or something.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, no, totally. And it it gets
Speaker 2: into some of the core arguments that people have about
Speaker 2: the Irish nationalism, the degree to which it's xenophobic and
Speaker 2: degree to which it's preserving a culture that's oppressed. By
Speaker 2: nineteen oh five, the political group shin Fain was started
Speaker 2: by the thrasher, the chiley wielding guy Arthur. But by
Speaker 2: nineteen oh four, in just one year, the Gaelic League
Speaker 2: had more than six hundred branches and fifty thousand members. Also,
Speaker 2: in nineteen oh four, Irish was added to the National
Speaker 2: school curriculum, so they like came out the fucking gaate.
Speaker 2: And then it gets real messy when religion gets involved.
Speaker 3: With the smile on Margaret's faith.
Speaker 2: All right, So the Catholic Church takes a lot of
Speaker 2: credit for Irish independence, and it uses the revolution to
Speaker 2: like institute a theocracy later, you know, and sometimes it
Speaker 2: actually fought against the Irish language in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 2: This part caught me completely off guard because overall you
Speaker 2: have this like, oh, Protestantism is the English you know, religion,
Speaker 2: and I mean it's the Church of England. Well, it's
Speaker 2: the Church of Ireland, but it's the same thing, yeah,
Speaker 2: versus the good Catholic Church or whatever. All the true
Speaker 2: Irish peopleh blah blah blah. But in the nineteenth century,
Speaker 2: for a while, during what was called the Bible Wars,
Speaker 2: the Anglican Church, or rather the Church of Ireland, it
Speaker 2: went on this wild recruiting scheme and it translated the
Speaker 2: Bible into Irish and it taught Irish folks to read
Speaker 2: Irish in the process. So the Protestant Church was trying
Speaker 2: to get people to read Irish as a way to
Speaker 2: get people to convert to Protestantism from Catholicism. And so
Speaker 2: the Catholics are like, oh, no, you don't. And so
Speaker 2: they managed to spin that's speaking Irish was the real Anglicization,
Speaker 2: even though that's really the opposite.
Speaker 3: It's the opposite. Oh yeah, this is getting messy, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this doesn't stick around for too long. I
Speaker 2: read all of this, I read some papers about this,
Speaker 2: and I was like talking to my friend and I
Speaker 2: was like, what the fuck? And then my friend kind
Speaker 2: of provided a lot of counter arguments of like I'm
Speaker 2: not getting into it here, but there's like these things
Speaker 2: called hedge schools that are more deepy schooling and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, and it did and it was often supported
Speaker 2: by the church, and it often did teach Irish. So
Speaker 2: there's a counter examples to this, but it just it's
Speaker 2: just a real interesting the idea of how fucking it
Speaker 2: makes me feel better about like right now where you
Speaker 2: like get on Twitter and people will like, like every
Speaker 2: year a political position will have like changed what people
Speaker 2: think you mean by it?
Speaker 3: M you know, yeah I do, and yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 3: it's hard to keep track of where things are and
Speaker 3: for people, and I might agree with somebody on this
Speaker 3: thing and then be like, wait a minute, what was that?
Speaker 3: What did that person say? Now wait a minute, I
Speaker 3: support this part of it, but are you saying it
Speaker 3: because of that totally?
Speaker 2: Like how like, you know, supporting Palestinian freedom does not
Speaker 2: equate to anti Semitism. There are anti Semites, There are
Speaker 2: anti Semites and Nazis who are trying to use that
Speaker 2: to leverage their own way, and we just have to
Speaker 2: like just stay aware, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, We're We're in a brave well it's
Speaker 3: not that brave knew of the world. There is something
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about it as you're setting this up,
Speaker 3: just how things don't change, how like, oh, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is how it goes, isn't it. It's like you do,
Speaker 3: you try to make your best alliances as you can
Speaker 3: and also changes and anyway, Yeah, no, it's nothing changes.
Speaker 2: It's just so messy. I even got kind of sad
Speaker 2: about it this week. This is like one of my
Speaker 2: favorite topics. I actually put this off for a couple
Speaker 2: of years. I knew I wanted to do the Eastern
Speaker 2: Rising because of my family connection and all this shit,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm not ready yet, And I'm
Speaker 2: glad I waited, because, like, I have more practice with
Speaker 2: this messy shit than I used to. Yeah, so now
Speaker 2: we're gonna get to another messy guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: His name is Patrick Pierce, and he is a nationalist,
Speaker 2: playwright and poet. He's one of the Easter Rising leaders.
Speaker 2: He's sort of like the leader. And if you ever
Speaker 2: want to read a fuck ton of speculation, then read academics, journalists, historians,
Speaker 2: and people on Reddit arguing about whether he was gay, autistic,
Speaker 2: a pedophile, and or a fascist.
Speaker 3: Oh Okay, the whole gamut.
Speaker 2: I'll give you my money. My money is on that
Speaker 2: he was asexual autistic, and I'm sort of glad he
Speaker 2: died before fascism came around, so we never got to
Speaker 2: find out what he would have thought about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, people love to throw in gay and pedophile
Speaker 3: in when people are a stranger different to them or
Speaker 3: not strange, but you know where they don't quite understand,
Speaker 3: and then they lump it all in everything.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this one's messy. Okay, First of all, you
Speaker 2: get into this really messy thing where late nineteenth century
Speaker 2: homophile stuff. You know, homosexuality didn't really exist. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know we're talking about the early twentieth century too,
Speaker 2: but like homosexual didn't exist as a concept, and you
Speaker 2: had different previous concepts to it. A lot of them
Speaker 2: were around attraction to boys in addition to men. That
Speaker 2: was absolutely part of that. There was also this kind
Speaker 2: of like cult of the boy in right wing circles
Speaker 2: in like European literature at the time. So Patrick Pierce
Speaker 2: wrote a pedophile poem. He wrote a poem about kissing
Speaker 2: a little boy and how it's better than kissing a woman.
Speaker 2: Oh it was the style at the time to write that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he also fucking ran a school.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's messy, it's messy, it's messiest shit. I still hold
Speaker 2: the autistic thing makes complete sense. I'm trying not to like,
Speaker 2: and the ace thing honestly seems to track.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But he also supported labor unions, which is a good thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so Patrick Pierce messiest person we'll talk about, I
Speaker 2: think this week. He was an Irish nationalist and he
Speaker 2: was a language activist. He was raised in the middle
Speaker 2: class with a unitarian British father and an Irish mother
Speaker 2: who had the best available name in the world. Margaret.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2: His sister had a pretty good name too, or she
Speaker 2: too was named Margaret. He and the Margarets. There's like
Speaker 2: eight hundred Margarets. There's like later there's an all women's
Speaker 2: unit and it talks about like all of the women
Speaker 2: of that who were killed during the following like ten
Speaker 2: year period, and it's like like ten different women and
Speaker 2: four or five of them are all named Margaret. But
Speaker 2: so he and the Margarets and his brother Willie Pierce,
Speaker 2: they together run an Irish language school called Saint Edna's,
Speaker 2: which taught in Irish and existed to help preserve Irish
Speaker 2: language and culture. He and Willie are both going to
Speaker 2: get executed in Easter Rising, and the two Margarets will
Speaker 2: continue to run the school without the boys. And I
Speaker 2: was talking to my friend about this episode and they
Speaker 2: were pointing out how important music and culture mattered in
Speaker 2: all of the Irish revolutionary movements, and a lot of
Speaker 2: that work was done by the nationalistscluding Pierce. He wrote
Speaker 2: the adaptation of one of my favorite rebel songs of
Speaker 2: all time, Oh Rousha Baja Walia. You've randomly heard this song,
Speaker 2: it's I couldn't tell you, Yeah, no, it's it's in Engrish,
Speaker 2: so I can't really sing it. It goes on after
Speaker 2: his death to become one of the anthems of the revolution.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna talk about that song because I really
Speaker 2: fucking like it. Although this is how I first learned
Speaker 2: that Patrick Pierce is like real complicated. I was like,
Speaker 2: interviewed by this magazine. Now I'm totally offscript. I was
Speaker 2: interviewed by this magazine and they were like, what's your
Speaker 2: favorite neo folk song? And I was like kind of
Speaker 2: fucking with him. So I was like, oh, Rousha baja
Speaker 2: walia and which which is not a modern folk song,
Speaker 2: It's a traditional militant folk song from the Irish Rising.
Speaker 2: And this Irish communist wrote me and was like really
Speaker 2: upset and was like Patrick Pierce is a fucking fascist.
Speaker 2: And I have done a bunch of research and I
Speaker 2: disagree with that person's assessment, but I understand where they
Speaker 2: came from and don't have a counter. I'm not like,
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, oh, he was a leftist. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: the song title oh RuSHA baha wa yah means cheers
Speaker 2: welcome home, much like you can welcome home the people
Speaker 2: you care about with stuff, things. Whatever is being advertised
Speaker 2: is what you should bring with you when you next
Speaker 2: meet your loved one at the airport.
Speaker 3: I think that you need to have whatever is about
Speaker 3: to be advertised. You'll probably I know you need it.
Speaker 2: She'll leave you if you don't have it. Yeah, grim
Speaker 2: it is. Here's the ads.
Speaker 3: And we're back. Hopefully you bought a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah. If not, rewind yep, don't use the pool fifteen
Speaker 2: second button to skip all the ads, which is why
Speaker 2: would you ever what I do? Except when I'm like
Speaker 2: when I'm like working, like like with my hands. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, fuck, I have to listen to the
Speaker 2: ads right now, because like you can't take my work
Speaker 2: gloves off or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll put up with them then.
Speaker 2: Yeah whatever, surgeons listening to this, you can't skip the ads.
Speaker 2: You're please don't listen to podcast all of them.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's only important thing of our advertisers.
Speaker 2: So this song cheers welcome home, very very rebellious title, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: Like lots of folks songs, its actual origins are like
Speaker 2: pretty much lost. When it was first written about in
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty five, it was deferred to as an ancient
Speaker 2: clan march. Ireland was divided up into clans instead of
Speaker 2: essential government for a very long time. Some folks also
Speaker 2: think it was likely a sea shanty, which makes sense,
Speaker 2: like hey, welcome home. You know we're like, fuck, yeah,
Speaker 2: you made it. That's how I like to translate the title.
Speaker 2: Yeah I don't speak Irish. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's
Speaker 2: also a version that was sung a month after a wedding,
Speaker 2: where in a traditional Irish wedding, the bride would move
Speaker 2: into the husband's house a month after the almost a funeral,
Speaker 2: but the opposite are kind of the same.
Speaker 3: Oh no, it depends on how you look at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly the death of your free life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then in seventeen forty five it was written to
Speaker 2: be a song for the Jacobite Rebellion, which is some
Speaker 2: complicated Kings of England shit where Ireland supported a Catholic
Speaker 2: king who was trying to reclaim the English throne. And
Speaker 2: in this version there's a line that says they'll be
Speaker 2: with him French and Spanish, and it's basically like, hey,
Speaker 2: all the Catholic nations are going to come together support
Speaker 2: the king. Fuck these Protestants, you know. Patrick Pierce rewrote
Speaker 2: the song to be about the Irish themselves free in Ireland,
Speaker 2: not waiting on help from an English crown or the
Speaker 2: French or Spanish. That line became Gale's Day and neither
Speaker 2: French nor Spanish, and later like people kind of use
Speaker 2: that to be like, oh see, this is this, like
Speaker 2: like we don't like any other Tree song. I think
Speaker 2: it's fairly easy to say, like, no, it means we
Speaker 2: don't need help from any other country. We can do this,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: Especially in the context of what we're talking about. Right
Speaker 3: at the time period.
Speaker 2: Right, And so this is me arguing with someone who
Speaker 2: sent me an email years ago.
Speaker 3: And if you are that person in listening right now,
Speaker 3: consider yourself told.
Speaker 2: Yeah, although you might also be right because he's a complicated.
Speaker 3: Anyways, like a very light point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he also included in this song Granio O'Malley,
Speaker 2: the pirate Queen of Ireland. We did a whole two
Speaker 2: parter about you should go listen to. She was a
Speaker 2: real person. She like divorced husbands and rated ships and
Speaker 2: add shit. Yeah, she's cool as hell. He was a
Speaker 2: nationalist in the truest sense of the word. He believed
Speaker 2: it was the patriotic duty of true Irish men to
Speaker 2: go off and get made dead in order to free
Speaker 2: the country. He wrote about that kind of shit all
Speaker 2: the fucking time. He also went and made himself dead
Speaker 2: to try and feed the country. So you can't like
Speaker 2: he's not armchairing this shit, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 3: He did it, but that's where he stopped.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and this is where most of the accusations
Speaker 2: against him with fascism come from. Is this writing. I
Speaker 2: read a fairly convincing piece that says his writing is
Speaker 2: in line with mainstream European writing at the time, no
Speaker 2: more or less specifically fascist than what people in every
Speaker 2: country who were writing in early twentieth century Europe. However,
Speaker 2: considering the whole of Europe almost fell into fascism within
Speaker 2: two decades of this man's death, it doesn't mean all
Speaker 2: that much. We don't know how he would have gone,
Speaker 2: how I feel. He talked a lot about manhood and
Speaker 2: war and heroism and the fatherland. He and some other
Speaker 2: of the nationalists men were really into reclaiming masculinity for
Speaker 2: Irish men because the English were making them all effeminate
Speaker 2: with their like Girly's founding.
Speaker 3: How many things you say that, I'm like, still, we're
Speaker 3: still doing this exactly. I just can't exactly continued. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but you also there's like Soviet propaganda that's the same shit.
Speaker 2: You know, the Western decadent man is gay, like you know,
Speaker 2: us good brave, virile communists.
Speaker 3: We're all just so boring. Let's get some new creative
Speaker 3: narratives going, just some different conversationists.
Speaker 2: Please, Totally. He was a good poet. He wrote really beautiful,
Speaker 2: fucked up lines like the old heart of the earth
Speaker 2: needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields.
Speaker 3: Okay, evocative?
Speaker 2: Yeah, no it is. It's evocative, which gives us a
Speaker 2: good segue to start talking about the other half of
Speaker 2: the Easter Rising socialists. The most prominent Irish socialist was
Speaker 2: a pretty fucking cool guy, one of the only people
Speaker 2: that I got. No, that's not sure. With the whole
Speaker 2: socialist side, I've got almost no coveiats about. They're actually
Speaker 2: pretty fucking this one, which is funny because sometimes I'll
Speaker 2: talk shit on some socialists and my fucking shows, but not, no,
Speaker 2: not this time. James Connolly. We'll talk more about him
Speaker 2: in a little bit, but I want to just he
Speaker 2: wrote a quote specifically talking shit on what I just
Speaker 2: read about the red wine of the fucking battlefields. James
Speaker 2: Connolly is chiming in from the leftist side of Catholic
Speaker 2: Irish independence, and he said, quote, No, we do not
Speaker 2: think the old heart of the earth needs to be
Speaker 2: warmed with the red wine of millions of lives. We
Speaker 2: think anyone who does is a blithering idiot. We are
Speaker 2: sick of such teaching, and the world is sick of
Speaker 2: such teaching. And these two militarily run the Rising together. Interesting,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's an important way to understand
Speaker 2: that there was not a unity of thought.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they're very different figures here, but
Speaker 3: they do want ultimately the same goal. Yeah, after you
Speaker 3: achieve that goal, what it looks like probably a different reality,
Speaker 3: but you know, they're working together towards something, which is
Speaker 3: something we all should keep in mind in our own as.
Speaker 2: Well, totally, you know. And it's like, all this is
Speaker 2: happening before a lot of the like great splinterings of
Speaker 2: revolutionary movements. You know, within a couple of years you're
Speaker 2: going to start seeing like the the Bolsheviks turning on
Speaker 2: the rest of the left in the USSR and killing
Speaker 2: everyone and all that stuff. But that hasn't happened yet. Overall,
Speaker 2: the Irish socialists were less nationalist and more internationalists, and
Speaker 2: you know, like gun to my head, I'd have a
Speaker 2: real hard time defining nationalism, you know, because there's a
Speaker 2: million fucking ways of understanding it. Exactly when someone says nationalism,
Speaker 2: you have to it's not enough information for you to
Speaker 2: figure out what they're talking about, because.
Speaker 3: It can mean so many things, and especially at this
Speaker 3: point in time, what's it mean versus now.
Speaker 2: And internationalist isn't all that different. It's a little bit
Speaker 2: more precise, but it can be defined a million different ways.
Speaker 2: The best way I can describe it in this context
Speaker 2: is that internationalism isn't isn't Everyone is the same and
Speaker 2: there's no cultural distinctions between people, right Because Okay, there's
Speaker 2: this idea that there's like nations which are different than states.
Speaker 2: Often they're use interchangeably, but in this particular way of
Speaker 2: understanding things, a nation is more about the people and
Speaker 2: the culture, whereas the state is like the structures, the
Speaker 2: organizational and governmental structures.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 2: Internationalism is not no nations. It's nations working together. It
Speaker 2: is the It is not melting pot America. It is
Speaker 2: all of these cultures can stay culturally distinct and find
Speaker 2: ways to work together. I like that because I think
Speaker 2: that's coolest shit it is.
Speaker 3: It's also a preserving of culture as well. It's not
Speaker 3: about not that there's anything wrong with cultures intermingling, but
Speaker 3: there is something beautiful about protecting your own heritage and
Speaker 3: also not being afraid of someone else's or of another culture.
Speaker 2: It's an acceptance, yeah, totally. And in order to explain
Speaker 2: the difference, I want to introduce a final one of
Speaker 2: the nationalists, that is, the people fighting for cultural Irishness
Speaker 2: and against Anglicization as their primary goal rather than like socialism.
Speaker 2: But this nationalist best I can understand, and I'm I'm
Speaker 2: running off of I'll tell you what I'm running off
Speaker 2: of my argument as to why this man's an internationalist.
Speaker 2: But he's one of the most interesting motherfuckers in the
Speaker 2: whole Rising. He probably wouldn't like me saying motherfucker because
Speaker 2: he's very Catholic. Joseph Plunkett Joseph Plunkett was our second
Speaker 2: rich Catholic who spent his whole life fighting friend of
Speaker 2: the pod tuberculosis. In this episode in the way of
Speaker 2: nineteenth century rich Europeans, he spent time in North Africa
Speaker 2: and Algiers and specifically and shit for his health as
Speaker 2: a kid to be like in the good coastal Mediterranean
Speaker 2: air or whatever, right I mean, he survived fucking well.
Speaker 2: Esventually the British are going to shoot him, but until
Speaker 2: then he survived, so it clearly worked for a while,
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, So as a kid, he learns Arabic
Speaker 2: and he starts writing poetry in it, and he also
Speaker 2: learns Irish, and then he learned the most internationalist shit
Speaker 2: to ever internationalist esperanto. You were, Oh you ever heard
Speaker 2: of esperanto?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: Oh, man. So he formed the Irish Esperanto League, which
Speaker 2: is where a bunch of the Eastern Rebels met one another.
Speaker 2: Four of the Easter Rising martyrs spoke this language, esperanto.
Speaker 2: Esperanto is an attempt at creating a universal language. It
Speaker 2: still exists. You can't this language. There's still i don't know,
Speaker 2: a couple million speakers or whatever worldwide. Esperanto was not
Speaker 2: designed to supplant local languages, but instead it was to
Speaker 2: provide internationalism by allow different people to have an auxiliary
Speaker 2: language that they can all speak, instead of like the
Speaker 2: way that English is the universal language right now, right,
Speaker 2: and like probably at one point, at some point it'll
Speaker 2: be Chinese or something, right, yeah, Mandarin. So instead of
Speaker 2: having it be someone's language that we use as the
Speaker 2: international language, this guy who will talk about in a
Speaker 2: second was just like, well, we'll just make one and
Speaker 2: it'll be no one's home language, and everyone can have
Speaker 2: their home language, and when they have to talk to
Speaker 2: each other, they can use this one. Instead of allowing
Speaker 2: cultural chauvinism to force one language upon everyone because we
Speaker 2: do need a way to communicate in this world.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's neat, He's a neat.
Speaker 3: It's a great idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, I'm I'm not going to learn it. No,
Speaker 2: but it would be about tenth on my list of
Speaker 2: languages to learn. I like really need to finish my Spanish,
Speaker 2: and they kind of want to learn English, and yeah.
Speaker 3: Some practical prioritiesier, but in a vacuum, very into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if they had one, you know, And it was
Speaker 2: like a thing like so. Esperanto was developed by an
Speaker 2: anti Zionist Jew from Poland in eighteen eighty seven, and
Speaker 2: his name was ELLL. Zamenhoff. He is this fucking banger
Speaker 2: of a quote about nationalism. And this was like later
Speaker 2: when people were like, hey, will you join this Jewish
Speaker 2: Esperantis league and he's like, I'm not into nationalism and
Speaker 2: Zionism and stuff. He actually briefly was into Zionism when
Speaker 2: he was younger, because he was like, man, these pogroms
Speaker 2: that I'm living through fucking suck. They keep killing us
Speaker 2: as Jews. We need to do something about that. But
Speaker 2: he quickly determined the Zionism was not the thing to
Speaker 2: do about it. And this was like a fuck one
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty years ago.
Speaker 3: Interesting how he could put those pieces together back then,
Speaker 3: and so many of us are struggling with it right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like fifty years before Israels were saying, he like
Speaker 2: ran through the thought process and was like, ah, cig.
Speaker 3: This doesn't end well, is what he thought.
Speaker 2: So yeah, here's this quote about nationalism, and it's it's
Speaker 2: how I feel. I don't need other people to feel
Speaker 2: how I feel about this. I am profoundly convinced that
Speaker 2: every nationalism offers humanity only the greatest on happiness. It
Speaker 2: is true that the nationalism of oppressed peoples as a
Speaker 2: natural self defensive reaction is much more excusable than the
Speaker 2: nationalism of peoples who oppress. But if the nationalism of
Speaker 2: the strong is ignoble, the nationalism of the week is imprudent.
Speaker 2: Both give birth to and support each other.
Speaker 3: That is so eloquent. I know, that's a perfectly stated
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: He's also the first person to write a Yiddish grammar,
Speaker 2: like to like write down, this is how Yiddish go.
Speaker 2: That would not be the way to do that if
Speaker 2: you were doing it anyway. He died in nineteen seventeen.
Speaker 2: His all three of his fucking kids were murdered by
Speaker 2: Nazis in the Holocaust. The second esperantist author after, I believe,
Speaker 2: after him, was an irishman who wrote the English language
Speaker 2: textbook of it and also spoke Irish, So Yiddish and
Speaker 2: Irish were like, hey, let's figure out non colonial like
Speaker 2: anti colonial ways to defend our fucking like ways of being,
Speaker 2: and the Irish people would be more likely to have
Speaker 2: called it nationalism.
Speaker 3: But you know, yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I first heard about Esperanto when I was a
Speaker 2: squadron the Netherlands. And this is totally just a side
Speaker 2: so I can tell this story because just a shout.
Speaker 2: I have no idea if this man listens to it,
Speaker 2: to the show. But there was this gay anarchist squatter
Speaker 2: lawyer who had moved to the Netherlands from the US
Speaker 2: and gotten his citizenship and shit there because of the
Speaker 2: thriving Esperanto scene in Amsterdam. He was an Esperantist and
Speaker 2: he was like, I gotta go where the Esperantis are,
Speaker 2: and so he moved to Amsterdam and one day we
Speaker 2: were squatting this abandoned gay bar. It was like the
Speaker 2: oldest gay bar in Amsterdam, and we were like the
Speaker 2: gay squat scene was trying to like make it a
Speaker 2: thing again. And so this man was one of the
Speaker 2: two police liaisons, and I just want to like paint
Speaker 2: this picture where you have this fabulous American queer and
Speaker 2: like an ostentatious fur coat is one of the police liaisons,
Speaker 2: and he's not particularly tall. And then the other one
Speaker 2: is this towering dutch man who's like an anti fascist
Speaker 2: skinhead who's wearing all black black bomber jacket, tight black
Speaker 2: pants and a bright pink mini skirt over his punk pants.
Speaker 2: What and a good cop, bad cop to the cops,
Speaker 2: where like the big dude is like screaming at them,
Speaker 2: and then the esperantoses calmly explaining why we weren't breaking
Speaker 2: any laws because we weren't because squatting was legal at
Speaker 2: the time. Incredible anyway, on Esperanto, this is how I
Speaker 2: heard about it, and.
Speaker 3: It holds a special place in your heart.
Speaker 2: Exactly oh later, I'm gonna draw a weird Okay, I
Speaker 2: really like my my red strings conspiracy boards where I
Speaker 2: draw all these weird connections through history. So that was plunket,
Speaker 2: we went way off. He was the He was the
Speaker 2: tuberculosis afflicted nationalist internationalists who started the Esperantis League. He
Speaker 2: also wrote poetry, including a poem I quite like, but
Speaker 2: I'm going to spare you all a reading of called
Speaker 2: I See his Blood upon the Rose, which is basically
Speaker 2: like a god is in everything kind of poem. He
Speaker 2: also he's a rich kid, right, so he turned his
Speaker 2: family property into a training center for the Irish Republican Brotherhood.
Speaker 2: So like all the people with guns would be like, well,
Speaker 2: where are we going to practice and drill? And he's like, well,
Speaker 2: I own.
Speaker 3: A fuck ton of land mommy and daddy's house.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, the estate, which is what you should do
Speaker 2: if you're born into wealth.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's go, lads, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: So that's the nationalists. When we come back on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about the socialists. You will be shocked
Speaker 2: to know. I feel more unqualifiedly positive about socialists, and
Speaker 2: I think none of them are going to fuck next
Speaker 2: to sarcopha guy. But you know what maybe they do,
Speaker 2: and that's just not included in what I learned.
Speaker 3: That It's it's so I'm sure someone will let you know,
Speaker 3: someone will get very angry that you've left it out
Speaker 3: and let you know that you are indeed a fascist
Speaker 3: for overlooking it.
Speaker 2: Pretty much. Margaret did a section on nationalists. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 2: but that's part one of our four parter about the
Speaker 2: Easter Rising. It's gonna be two parts of context, two
Speaker 2: parts of action. But don't worry, there's lots of good
Speaker 2: action in all the context. The context is full of
Speaker 2: action and very exciting. This is great fucking on the grave,
Speaker 2: but fucking on a grave, which is a terrible way
Speaker 2: to segue to you and the stuff that you should
Speaker 2: talk about, right.
Speaker 3: Sure, plug, Well, I've got some shows you can check out.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: We have our YouTube channel which is called some More News.
Speaker 3: Maybe you're like, hey, I know that channel, but that's
Speaker 3: a boy on that channel. As frequently when I tell
Speaker 3: people where I work, they're like, that's not a girl,
Speaker 3: that's Tody Johnson. Yeah. No, I've been there the whole time.
Speaker 3: You Fox and started that show together hosts it. I
Speaker 3: feel that in my core.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: And we also have a podcast called even more News,
Speaker 3: and we take the audio from the YouTube channel. If
Speaker 3: you don't like watching YouTube channels, you can listen to
Speaker 3: the audio of it. Also in the podcast feed to
Speaker 3: just look up some more news, and that's where you'll
Speaker 3: find me. Technically, I'm on Twitter, but I don't use
Speaker 3: it very often.
Speaker 1: Katie posts really cute picks of her perfect dog Benny
Speaker 1: on Instagram.
Speaker 3: I do, I do tell me on Instagram. I recently
Speaker 3: I will be re emerging out of Twitter. It is
Speaker 3: the platform that I have the most, you know, not
Speaker 3: that it matters, but that's where if you want to
Speaker 3: share your work, the most people follow you. But it's
Speaker 3: become so hard for me emotionally and physically to use
Speaker 3: the space. So but on Instagram, I try to just
Speaker 3: post pictures of the mountains and animals and wholesome things.
Speaker 3: But even that's hard to maintain these days anyway. But
Speaker 3: that's a whole other conversation for another time. Those are
Speaker 3: the places you can follow me.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, and I appreciate it because I as I
Speaker 2: do watch you too, But I watch YouTube at twice speed, yeah,
Speaker 2: because if I'm watching, it's harder for my add to
Speaker 2: make it work, whereas listening is fine because I'm out
Speaker 2: walking or doing something else.
Speaker 3: Exactly multitask, So you got options if you want to
Speaker 3: listen to some more news.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you want to listen to me. I
Speaker 2: have a podcast called cool People The Cool Stuff. You
Speaker 2: can find every Monday and Wednesday and it comes from
Speaker 2: cool Zone Media, which Sophie runs. Hi Sophie, Hi, I
Speaker 2: think plug. Just keep it looked out.
Speaker 1: And if you're if you subscribe to the goal Zone
Speaker 1: Media channel on any of the ops people, look out
Speaker 1: for a couple of new shows launching very very soon.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited about it. I I really like this.
Speaker 2: I like cool Zone Media. I'm proud to be part
Speaker 2: of it. It's very cool shows.
Speaker 1: Listen, not gonna lie pretty much a big fan of
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. In my very unbiased opinion, totally Cool
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff on cool Zone Media is
Speaker 1: a great show.
Speaker 2: Hell wait, is that a swing? Check it out? It
Speaker 2: is this one. All you gotta do is check in
Speaker 2: again on Wednesday. What a clever bit. People are gonna
Speaker 2: be like, man, Wow, those ladies are so clever, so clever.
Speaker 1: We'll see you then, Bye bye bye. Cool People Who
Speaker 1: Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.