Speaker 1: Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shonda Land Audio in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. He was a Cambridge educated
Speaker 1: polly math and adviser to Queen Elizabeth the First, and
Speaker 1: he also conversed with the angels. Welcome to Criminalia work
Speaker 1: Today we'll be talking about the celebrated mathematician and alchemist
Speaker 1: John Dee. I'm Maria tre Marquis and I'm Holly Fry.
Speaker 1: The influence of prophecy and astrology have an important place
Speaker 1: in the fifteenth and sixteen centuries, so it was no
Speaker 1: surprise that the ideas were important to King Henry the Seventh,
Speaker 1: who ruled England from August until his death in April
Speaker 1: of fifteen o nine. The importance of those things remained
Speaker 1: strong through the Tutor period, which began the same year
Speaker 1: Henry took the throne and came to an end in
Speaker 1: sixteen o three. Not only was he fascinating by the occult,
Speaker 1: that fascination continued through generations of his family. His son,
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth was obsessed with the practices, as was
Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First. Henry the eighth daughter enter the man
Speaker 1: named John D. John d. Is there anything he wasn't interested?
Speaker 1: In let's start with his personal life. John D was
Speaker 1: born in July to Rowland and Joanna D who were
Speaker 1: of Welsh descent. Rowland was a tailor and a mercer.
Speaker 1: A mercer was a merchant who dealt with fabrics, usually
Speaker 1: expensive fabrics. And just in case we have any stitchers
Speaker 1: in the crowd and your brain has made the connection
Speaker 1: to the phrase mercer at cotton, which comes up in
Speaker 1: descriptions of thread and occasional sewing textiles. Coincidental and unrelated.
Speaker 1: That is named for a process of treating fabrics so
Speaker 1: they upticked die more readily, but it is named for
Speaker 1: John Mercer, who invented it several hundred years after the
Speaker 1: events were talking about today, which puts us in the
Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds. And we could thank Holly for this
Speaker 1: ditchery and sewing information. I immediately thought of mercerized cotton.
Speaker 1: I knew would didn't didn't want any confusion to be there.
Speaker 1: So back to John D. John was married at least
Speaker 1: twice and possibly three times. Here's what we've got. John's
Speaker 1: first wife was Katherine Constable. The couple had no children.
Speaker 1: There may have been a second wife after Katherine, but
Speaker 1: that is unclear. Again, if there was a marriage, there
Speaker 1: were no children. John was we know, married to Jane Fromond.
Speaker 1: Jane had been a lady in waiting to the Countess
Speaker 1: of Lincoln. It suggested that Jane's connections could have helped
Speaker 1: her new husband's career and his finances in his later years. Now,
Speaker 1: also depending on what you read, John and Jane had
Speaker 1: either one child or they had eight children, pretty wide margin. Uh.
Speaker 1: In the scenario where the couple is described as having
Speaker 1: one child, that child was a son named Arthur, and Arthur,
Speaker 1: like his father, was an alchemist who was also a
Speaker 1: physician to King Charles the First of England, and is
Speaker 1: are Michael the First of Russia. The version of the
Speaker 1: story where they had eight children kind of falls out
Speaker 1: like this. There were four boys and four girls, and
Speaker 1: it's possible that at least two of their daughters died
Speaker 1: of plague. Let's switch this focus to John's work. John
Speaker 1: really was a genius. If you look at the word
Speaker 1: Polly Math in the dictionary, you could possibly see a
Speaker 1: picture of John d He was a person who was
Speaker 1: genuinely curious about our world and what might be beyond
Speaker 1: our world. So John, as you'll get to know was
Speaker 1: was really quite a character, But we can't talk about
Speaker 1: all the things about his life in this episode. He
Speaker 1: was a force of nature, and our show just isn't
Speaker 1: big enough to contain him. So if there's something about
Speaker 1: his life that we skip over, we probably didn't want to.
Speaker 1: We know about De's education because he told us about it.
Speaker 1: In fifteen ninety two, he recounted how, at age fifteen,
Speaker 1: he attended St John's College, Cambridge, where he wrote he
Speaker 1: studied for at least eighteen hours a day. He received
Speaker 1: his undergraduate degree in fifteen forty five and a master's
Speaker 1: degree in fifteen forty eight, both from St John's. In
Speaker 1: fifteen forty six, John was elected a fellow at the
Speaker 1: newly founded Trinity College. He also spent time studying at
Speaker 1: the University of Luven. Note that here we're talking about
Speaker 1: old University of Luvin, not the newer Catholic University of Luven,
Speaker 1: which was established in eighteen thirty five, and it is
Speaker 1: at university where John d met, in his words, some quote,
Speaker 1: learned men. These learned men included mathematicians Gema Frisius, Gerardis Mercator,
Speaker 1: and Gaspar America. By fifteen fifty John was living in
Speaker 1: and lecturing around Paris, and went on to work for
Speaker 1: King Henry the second of France, as well as the
Speaker 1: un Diversity of Paris. D's understanding of chemistry and physics
Speaker 1: was extraordinary, and he's said to have used these skills
Speaker 1: to produce some pretty impressive stage effects during his time
Speaker 1: at Cambridge. Here's one great example of his mathematical antics.
Speaker 1: He was involved in a production of Aristophanes's Athenian play
Speaker 1: Packs or Peace, a comedy that was first staged in
Speaker 1: four b C. D's contribution was this a giant mechanical
Speaker 1: scarab beetle used as a prop to make it appears
Speaker 1: though a character was flying through the air while riding
Speaker 1: the insects back the performance, it was reviewed, was so
Speaker 1: lifelike and astonishing to the audience that many believed d
Speaker 1: must have conspired with the devil to make such a thing.
Speaker 1: And these thoughts, well we quote him here and for
Speaker 1: these and such like marvelous arts and feats naturally mathematically
Speaker 1: and mechanically rock contrived, any student and modest Christian philosopher
Speaker 1: be counted and called a conjuror. As a student at
Speaker 1: Trinity College, he gained a reputation as a magician. We're
Speaker 1: gonna take a break for a word from our sponsor,
Speaker 1: and when we're back we will talk about the crime
Speaker 1: of calculating. Welcome back to Criminalia. Let's talk about John
Speaker 1: d astrologer to the royals. It is said that John
Speaker 1: turned down a mathematical professorship at the University of Paris
Speaker 1: in fifteen fifty one and another similar position at the
Speaker 1: University of Oxford in fifteen fifty four, all in the
Speaker 1: hope that he would be able to score an official
Speaker 1: position with the Crown. And he did, and then he
Speaker 1: got arrested. He was arrested and charged with the crime
Speaker 1: of something called calculating. It was in reference to what
Speaker 1: was considered an act of treason on his behalf, casting
Speaker 1: horoscopes for Queen Mary and her younger sister Elizabeth, who
Speaker 1: would go on to become Elizabeth the First. He was
Speaker 1: then interrogated by the Star Chamber, which was an English
Speaker 1: court that sat in the Palace of Westminster. He was
Speaker 1: exonerated by the common law judges in that court, but
Speaker 1: he later was examined by Edmund Bonner, Bishop of London
Speaker 1: and infamous heretic hunter the outcome may not have been
Speaker 1: exactly what you expect, though D. N. Bonner became friends
Speaker 1: and that marked the end of any further investigation. Later
Speaker 1: found among these books was one inscribed in Latin quote
Speaker 1: the house of my singular friend, a reference to a
Speaker 1: stay at Bonner's home. John d did work for the
Speaker 1: royal family, and he became famously known as the conjuror
Speaker 1: to Queen Elizabeth the First, but d was a just
Speaker 1: astrologer to the royals. He had clients and students outside
Speaker 1: of the royal family, including Francis Bacon, promoter of a
Speaker 1: new idea called the scientific method, un to the astronomer
Speaker 1: Thomas Diggs, who believed the universe to be infinite. Not
Speaker 1: to be missed two is Dee's library, which is kind
Speaker 1: of a character in and of itself. It was not
Speaker 1: your ordinary home bookshelves, and it was known to have
Speaker 1: contained as many as three thousand to four thousand books.
Speaker 1: It became a hub a sort of scholarly network that
Speaker 1: he often imagined expanding into an international research institute. Occultism
Speaker 1: in these types of practices were actually pretty normal for
Speaker 1: the period, and the occult sciences enjoyed a kind of
Speaker 1: Renaissance in later Elizabethan England, as print and translation made ancient, Medieval,
Speaker 1: and earlier Renaissance texts available to would be English adepts,
Speaker 1: writes academic Paul S. Sever Dee didn't view any of
Speaker 1: his study as heresy. He saw the practices as a
Speaker 1: way to learn more about the world and the cosmos.
Speaker 1: He spent much of his time on the ideas of alchemy, divination,
Speaker 1: and hermetic philosophy, and he known for his accuracy in
Speaker 1: what was at the time the newly emerging science of physics,
Speaker 1: and for his interest in exploration of chemical compounds. But
Speaker 1: here is a problem. That d and his peers ran
Speaker 1: into math made people suspicious. D was up against a
Speaker 1: society that considered math disreputable. It was thought to be
Speaker 1: in league with the practices of witchcraft and the dark arts.
Speaker 1: You're manipulating the counting of things that is scary. Nicolas
Speaker 1: Copernicus is the Revolutionibus, published in fifty three, for instance,
Speaker 1: was scandalous because of its heliocentric theory of the solar system.
Speaker 1: But the fact that he used mathematics to deduce the
Speaker 1: things he couldn't directly see was also problematic. During the
Speaker 1: Tutor period, math books were often destroyed, usually burned for
Speaker 1: being and we're quoting conjuring books. A few decades after
Speaker 1: D's death in sixteen fifty one, biograph for John Rawleigh
Speaker 1: was accused of conjuring when he used basic geometry to
Speaker 1: calculate the height of a steeple. So alchemy could and
Speaker 1: was confused with witchery from time to time or often,
Speaker 1: and at this time, as we've seen, such as with
Speaker 1: Cornelia's Agrippa as well as Nostrodamus, when your work and
Speaker 1: interests fall into what's considered to be beyond our physical world,
Speaker 1: you begin to kind of tell the line between an
Speaker 1: afternoon discussion about horoscopes in the queen's court to being
Speaker 1: punished by death for heresy. In six hundred, just a
Speaker 1: few years before John's death, astronomer Giordano Bruno was executed
Speaker 1: because well, I mean, actually it depends on which historian
Speaker 1: you ask, because this is debated. The Roman Inquisition condemned him,
Speaker 1: at least partly because of cosmology. Bruno argued there were
Speaker 1: many worlds, and he was formally accused by the Church
Speaker 1: not of heresy but of blasphemy thirteen times in ten
Speaker 1: depositions by six witnesses. These out of world ideas lead
Speaker 1: to his death. Eventually, John d left the Queen's service
Speaker 1: to seek deeper knowledge of the occult and the supernatural.
Speaker 1: In doing so, though, De aligned himself with individuals who
Speaker 1: were or who were once considered to be con artists
Speaker 1: and Charlatan's and frankly frauds. These gadgets and devices may
Speaker 1: have seemed magical to the untrained eye, but they were
Speaker 1: actually mathematical instruments. The children near his home in Mortlake
Speaker 1: quote dreaded him because he was accounted a conjurer. But
Speaker 1: you see, John was a conjurer. D closely studied codes
Speaker 1: and cryptography discussed in Stenographia by the German abbot Johannes Trithemius, who,
Speaker 1: by the way, was suspected of diabolical wizardry. Steinographia described
Speaker 1: the practice of concealing a message within another message or
Speaker 1: a physical object, basically the art of encrypting messages, and
Speaker 1: it's the book that turned d on the idea of
Speaker 1: angelic communication. John spent years scrying for angels and spirits
Speaker 1: with a man named Edward Kelly, who was an English
Speaker 1: Renaissance occultist and self declared spirit medium. Scrying is a
Speaker 1: form of divination that involves staring into a reflective surface,
Speaker 1: such as a crystal ball or a mirror, or maybe water,
Speaker 1: and looking for visions of things to come in the future.
Speaker 1: John and Edward were seeking and we quote angelic conversation
Speaker 1: d and Kelly claimed they've discovered an angelic language called
Speaker 1: an opian and we're being taught the alphabet and words
Speaker 1: by the angels themselves. So we have to talk about
Speaker 1: this part because the story here takes a pretty big turn.
Speaker 1: There is a version of John and Edward's story where
Speaker 1: Edward claims the angels wanted the men to swap wives.
Speaker 1: Depending on the version, this situation may have happened in Poland. Also,
Speaker 1: depending on the version, they did swap wives and shortly
Speaker 1: after parted ways. Some versions do, while others do not
Speaker 1: claim that. In one of these journals, he writes, Kelly
Speaker 1: may have fathered one of his sons. You know, regardless
Speaker 1: of which adventure here that you choose, the two men
Speaker 1: did part ways. We are going to take a break
Speaker 1: here for a word from our sponsor, and when we're back,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the idea that John D.
Speaker 1: Was a spy. Welcome back to Criminalia. So is John
Speaker 1: D a scientist or is he a sorcerer? Let's discuss.
Speaker 1: John had set his more scientific and mathematical work aside
Speaker 1: for the crystal ball and obsidian mirror. Upon returning home
Speaker 1: to England, def that his home and that enormous and
Speaker 1: enviable library we mentioned had both been broken into, pillaged
Speaker 1: and vandalized. John did return to the Queen's service when
Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First appointed him Warden of Manchester College in
Speaker 1: fifteen ninety six, but he found himself out of royal
Speaker 1: favor when the Queen was succeeded by James the First.
Speaker 1: The end of John's life was overwhelmed by poverty and isolation.
Speaker 1: History has long said that he died at Mortlake in
Speaker 1: December of sixteen o eight and was buried in the
Speaker 1: Church of St Mary the Virgin, but over the years
Speaker 1: new evidence has emerged that suggests that maybe his death
Speaker 1: didn't happen that way. Perhaps instead his death actually took
Speaker 1: place the following March in sixteen o nine, and that
Speaker 1: instead of at Mortlake, rather it happened in the London
Speaker 1: home of his friend probable fellow alchemist and possible executor
Speaker 1: to his estate. John pontois pretty much everyone who has
Speaker 1: tried has founded difficult to categorize John D. Is he
Speaker 1: a scientist or a sorcerer. John was a fairly marginal
Speaker 1: character for most of the twentieth century, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: until the nineteen sixties and seventies that his story began
Speaker 1: to re emerge, this time regarding the advances in astronomy
Speaker 1: and philosophy that occurred during his lifetime. A new focus
Speaker 1: was placed on these contributions to subjects including mathematics, geography, astronomy,
Speaker 1: and navigation, and his magical investigations and occult leanings were
Speaker 1: de emphasized. Many of his contemporaries would have tried to
Speaker 1: pin him down as a philosopher or an astrologer, or
Speaker 1: perhaps even a magician. All would have agreed on one thing, though,
Speaker 1: John D was perhaps most of all a mathematician. In
Speaker 1: his work The Mathematical Preface to the Elements of Geometry
Speaker 1: of Euclid and Megara, published in fifteen seventy, D argued
Speaker 1: that mathematics was an influence and an imported influence on
Speaker 1: all other arts and sciences. This became one of John's
Speaker 1: most widely and most frequently reprinted writings. And when it
Speaker 1: comes to those writings and specifically that writing, let's quote Galileo,
Speaker 1: The Book of Nature is written in the language of mathematics.
Speaker 1: You probably recognize Galileo as the famous Italian astronomer, physicist,
Speaker 1: and engineer. And there's probably a few of the things
Speaker 1: I could add that list as well. The two were contemporaries,
Speaker 1: but D would have been nearly forty years old when
Speaker 1: Galileo was born. Galileo's point here was complicated, but it
Speaker 1: boils down to really this, No true science would be
Speaker 1: called a science until it had become mathematical. Natural philosophy,
Speaker 1: which D had interest in studying, was the philosophical study
Speaker 1: of nature and the physical universe. So the idea that
Speaker 1: John's work was written in the language of mathematics was
Speaker 1: really big, and German philosopher Emmanuel Kant backed up this
Speaker 1: idea in the eighteenth century, saying, quote, there is only
Speaker 1: that much genuine science in any science as it contains mathematics.
Speaker 1: To put it all into perspective, though definitions were still
Speaker 1: pretty fluid at this point, and Kant applying the idea
Speaker 1: that modern science must be mathematicized, denied that chemistry was
Speaker 1: a science, so not all wisdom is universal to all
Speaker 1: things right, it's a work in progress here, it was
Speaker 1: agreed though that quote des work looks like mumbo jumbo
Speaker 1: and mysticism. Yet it was mathematical, and that was what mattered.
Speaker 1: During his lifetime, John was never rewarded for his intellectual achievements,
Speaker 1: but his legend, his ideas and inventions, they live on
Speaker 1: in so many ways in literature, comics, opera, songs, and
Speaker 1: video games, and even James Bond. James Bond Bond, Yes,
Speaker 1: but first Prospero. John D and William Shakespeare were contemporaries,
Speaker 1: and while no one can be sure if the two
Speaker 1: men ever met each other, it's not unlikely that they
Speaker 1: knew of each other. That's all speculative, though, However, scholars
Speaker 1: are almost certain that Shakespeare used John as the model
Speaker 1: for his character of Prospero, an alchemist who uses magical
Speaker 1: powers to manipulate and intimidate in the play The Tempest.
Speaker 1: The Tempest was probably written in sixteen ten or sixteen eleven,
Speaker 1: so not long after John D's death, and it is
Speaker 1: not just the character of Prospero that he inspired. He
Speaker 1: was considered to have been the inspiration for Christopher Marlowe's
Speaker 1: character Dr Faustus, as well as Ben Johnson's The Alchemist.
Speaker 1: And then there's D. John D. So we discovered a
Speaker 1: long history regarding John D as a spy, and it
Speaker 1: all seems to have started when seventeenth century scientist Robert
Speaker 1: Hook suggested that D was officially employed by Elizabeth the
Speaker 1: First not for his abilities as an oracle, but that
Speaker 1: he was really an undercover agent for the crown. Hook
Speaker 1: argued that John traveled Europe as an academic, but his
Speaker 1: real job was to gather information for the Queen. Hook
Speaker 1: also defended John's conversations with the angels by explaining they
Speaker 1: must have been encrypted intelligence messages sent from the Royal court.
Speaker 1: We have actually no proof of anything that Hook said
Speaker 1: about D in this capacity. It just seems to be
Speaker 1: out there, sort of floating in the ether. In rumors
Speaker 1: swirled that John had signed his name as double O
Speaker 1: seven in his correspondence with Queen Elizabeth the First, and
Speaker 1: the code was rumored to mean for the Queen's eyes only.
Speaker 1: But again, there's nothing to see here other than rumors.
Speaker 1: But I mean, actually there is one thing. It has
Speaker 1: been said that d did actually sign memos to Elizabeth
Speaker 1: with specific symbols two ohs like a pair of eyes,
Speaker 1: followed by a seven with its top drawn across back
Speaker 1: of the os. It's much more likely, though, to be true,
Speaker 1: that d advised the Queen's director of Intelligence, Francis Walsingham,
Speaker 1: on issues of national security as well as on establishing
Speaker 1: a network of spies and codes, because remember, he was
Speaker 1: competent with crying, with seeing what was to come. Much
Speaker 1: more of a project manager than a field agent at
Speaker 1: that point, Yes, very much so. So angel conversationalist or
Speaker 1: not conjuror or mathematician. During the Scientific Revolution, that's the
Speaker 1: specific period of scientific growth shortly after D's death, during
Speaker 1: the sixteenth and seventeen centuries, these ideas and visions began
Speaker 1: to be heard and taken seriously by a larger circle
Speaker 1: of scientists. And with a quote from John himself, We're
Speaker 1: gonna stroll over to the cauldron quote. Who does not
Speaker 1: understand should either learn or be silent. So Holly, teach
Speaker 1: us what's in the cauldron. Oh, surprises, surprises. I feel
Speaker 1: like this is one of those drinks that is either
Speaker 1: going to lose half of the listeners or um or
Speaker 1: delight them, or maybe it'll be But in any case,
Speaker 1: this is a drink that I call angel language, because
Speaker 1: I was really obsessed with this idea of like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: we're we're talking to angels. They're teaching us alphabets and
Speaker 1: also instructing us to do interesting things, and so I
Speaker 1: just kept thinking about like what a what a strange
Speaker 1: and sort of wonderful thing to be, like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm talking to angels. Later, I gotta I gonna have lunch,
Speaker 1: but I have a meeting to the angels. I had
Speaker 1: a meeting with the angels at five. I'm like, so
Speaker 1: I wanted to come up is something that felt a
Speaker 1: little angelic, and I noodled on it for a bit
Speaker 1: and then I realized I wanted to do something with champagne.
Speaker 1: And this one has some roots with the classic champagne
Speaker 1: cocktail from the eighteen fifties, but with a twist that
Speaker 1: kind of nods to John d The classic champagne cocktail,
Speaker 1: which isn't what we're making here today, but I'll give
Speaker 1: it to you in case. Is a sugar cube that
Speaker 1: is then doused with angst a bitters and you drop
Speaker 1: it in your glass before you pour the champagne, so
Speaker 1: it sweetens it. Some people just use regular sugar, not
Speaker 1: a sugar cube, and now some people would use simple syrup.
Speaker 1: It's delightful. However, this one, I'm telling you it's a
Speaker 1: little weird. But come with me, something very fun happens.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend using a coupe for this one rather
Speaker 1: than a fluted champagne glass because, uh, it helps with
Speaker 1: a thing that I will describe. It does the thing
Speaker 1: for you. You're gonna build this, like I said, in
Speaker 1: the glass, so it's not something you shake and then
Speaker 1: pour in. You want to go ahead and build it
Speaker 1: in the glass. So it's gonna start with a blourb
Speaker 1: that's an official measurement. Um. I've seen it popping up
Speaker 1: in cookbooks recently, like a spoonful of marshmallow cream. Well,
Speaker 1: this is starting interestingly, I know, I told you, And
Speaker 1: you're gonna toss that in your glass, and then on
Speaker 1: top of that, you'll pour a half ounce of creme
Speaker 1: de violette. If you don't like violet cordial, you could
Speaker 1: use almost any other cordial here that you prefer, and
Speaker 1: then an ounce of whipped cream or vanilla vodka whatever.
Speaker 1: I had whipped cream vodka on hand, but vanilla vaca
Speaker 1: would work just fine here. And then you're gonna top
Speaker 1: all that with champagne. And so what happens is your
Speaker 1: marshmallow fluff um or your marshmallow cream, whichever you've bought,
Speaker 1: is going to start to break apart and dissolve a little,
Speaker 1: and it makes these beautiful little cloud shapes in the glass.
Speaker 1: And it's got that kind of In my case, the
Speaker 1: crammed a violette added a little pink hue, so it
Speaker 1: looks almost like a pretty sunset, and it gets sweeter
Speaker 1: as you drink it because more and more of the
Speaker 1: marshmallow fluff has broken down, and it's just very beautiful.
Speaker 1: You could, even if you wanted to play John de
Speaker 1: fun could say that you were reading the fluff clouds
Speaker 1: as they break apart, like one would divine tea leaves
Speaker 1: or something. There's no real thing going on there. It's
Speaker 1: just delicious sugar breaking into pieces. But this is uh
Speaker 1: drink that tastes like candy and surely packs a wallop.
Speaker 1: Like I described it, as I was work shopping it,
Speaker 1: I was tweeting a little about it, and I said
Speaker 1: it was like being slapped around by kittens, so yummy,
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, it's a very dessert e drink.
Speaker 1: But because I mean you have vodka and a liquor
Speaker 1: and champagne, the only thing that's not an alcohol in
Speaker 1: there is marshmallow flow, so I have to die you
Speaker 1: Like I I grew up with marshmallow fluf fluff for Nutters,
Speaker 1: where um, and I have this association with marshmallow fluff
Speaker 1: and peanut butter, so like, I'm so glad that you've
Speaker 1: broken fluff out for me into a different world because
Speaker 1: I was never really a fan and a fluff for nutter,
Speaker 1: but I have a fan and I'm not keeping your drink,
Speaker 1: so I'd much rather have that. And I do like
Speaker 1: marshmallow flavored everything, so um yeah, I kind of wanted
Speaker 1: to do something that tasted a little like Angel food cake,
Speaker 1: which it does, and it is light because of the champagne,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like an Angel food cake e
Speaker 1: nod as well. Here's how you would do the mocktail
Speaker 1: version of this. Marshmallow cream or marshmallow fluff obviously fine.
Speaker 1: Instead of your cordial, you can just do a flavored syrup,
Speaker 1: whatever variety you like. I wanted to do a rose syrup,
Speaker 1: but I'm trying not to be a predictable beast um.
Speaker 1: But also I mean, if you like a raspberry syrup,
Speaker 1: like any syrup that you like, would be fun to
Speaker 1: try here. Obviously you can't do the vodka. Here's what
Speaker 1: I would do a little bit of cream soda, and
Speaker 1: then you're ginger ale on top of that. I would
Speaker 1: do one or both of those in a low sugar
Speaker 1: or sugar free version. Otherwise it's going to be pretty cloying.
Speaker 1: But if you like super sweet, then go for it.
Speaker 1: The other funding that happens that I didn't mention with
Speaker 1: the alcoholic version is that when you pour the champagne in,
Speaker 1: it really reacts with the marshmallow fluff and does this
Speaker 1: like kind of explode. E does have a chemical chemical
Speaker 1: react a little bit. I mean it just it has.
Speaker 1: You have a big moment initially, so definitely pour it slowly,
Speaker 1: don't just like because it's gonna expand pretty quickly and
Speaker 1: you may have an overflow under your counter like I did.
Speaker 1: It happens tools of the trade. So it's a fun
Speaker 1: little dessert sparkler, And like I said, it's called angel Language.
Speaker 1: I love it. I want to make I would have
Speaker 1: had too, but I workshop them sometimes in the morning
Speaker 1: before we record, and I didn't need to come to
Speaker 1: this recording like Stumbalina. I would have been really not
Speaker 1: not holly in the corner right, I've been like, where
Speaker 1: do you be? John. It wouldn't have been very good
Speaker 1: at all. So nobody needs that. So if you make
Speaker 1: a little angel language, I hope it's delightful for you.
Speaker 1: I hope that you meet us back here next week
Speaker 1: where we will have yet another episode of Criminalia, and
Speaker 1: I hope that you have enjoyed this one, and I
Speaker 1: want to thank you for spending this time with us.
Speaker 1: Criminalia is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership
Speaker 1: with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio,
Speaker 1: please visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.