WEBVTT - Austrian Economics with Aleks Svetski 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:02.240 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Mark 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.440 Moss Show, where we talk about the decentralized revolution each 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:07.160 and every week, of course, talking about the way the 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:09.440 world is changing as we look at it through the 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.760 lens of politics, finance, and technology, and of course that 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:17.080 technology being bitcoin, the decentralized technology that of course, technology 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.680 always changes the world, you know. I try to bring 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:21.799 to you some you know, educational pieces to help you 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:23.560 see the world a little bit differently, some of the 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.639 latest breaking news, and of course some new unique perspectives 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.160 from some different guests. And so I have a returning guest, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.159 my good friend Alex S. Fetzky. He's in the studio 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.839 with me today, Alex, and you can find him on 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.760 Twitter at Sfetzky Rights. And we wanted to talk about 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:46.880 um as I said, politics, finance and technology, and really 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.640 I'm always interested in the convergence of those three, and 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:53.960 of course they all drive each other. Technology seems to 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.640 be the big driver of of change, but politics and 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.800 finance come together. And Alex, I know you've been working 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.600 on a lot of Austrian economics, and Austrian economics is 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.840 a a school of thought, a school of thought of 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.200 economics and it used to be a big school of 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.960 thought of economics. It's not really taught anymore. I've talked 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.279 to many people who have graduated in the United States 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:19.280 from UH with with MBA's and pH ds in economics 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.720 who have never even heard or never heard of Austrian 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.560 economics while they were in school. Amazingly. Um, but give 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.679 us some of the background on you know, where it 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.840 came from, uh and and kind of how Austrian economics emerged, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.959 and we'll kind of walk through that. Cool cool, cool, 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:39.240 cool Mark. Thank you for having me back. First of all, uh, 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:41.240 maybe maybe a good place to stought. This is sort 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:42.920 of a little bit of background. I've been working on 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.400 a publication for a number of years now called The 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.640 Bitcoin Times and the latest edition so uh, I was 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.080 about to say this year's edition, but we're actually so 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:57.440 the edition was which just came out, actually came out 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.320 of a Christmas is the Austrianan issue where I brought 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.560 together who some some of who I think are the 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.960 best minds in and around bitcoin, So Safety Namos, who 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.960 wrote the Bitcoin standard, Michael Goldstein, who was one of 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.079 the people actually inspired him to get into bitcoin, Pierre Rochard, 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.320 Raheem Tugger out a gun who's actually a direct student 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.960 of hans Herman Hopper, and he's the last he's the 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:29.240 last Austrian economist who's teaching in the direct Austrian School 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.320 in Austria. UM. And he was actually a physicist turned 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.600 Austrian economists. So he wrote the piece in there. And 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.720 Conrad Graff, who's who's quite a well known early bitcoin 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.079 or kind of tied the concepts of bitcoin and Austrian 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.240 economics together. UM. And anyway, I brought these people together 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.919 to write a series of pieces, and one of them 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:53.040 in there was actually written by Rahim hans Herman Hopper's student, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.360 and it's called from Bitcoin to the Austrian School and 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.000 from the Austrian School to Bitcoin, and he talks a 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.040 little bit about like why this school of economics is 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:08.120 called Austrian economics. It's not because it's like Austrian. It 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:13.760 just so happened that the founding fathers of this school 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.760 of thought basically sort of came out during what's kind 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:23.359 of known but not very well known as the Austrian Renaissance, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.799 which was kind of around like late eighteen hundred's early 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.400 nine hundreds. And this is sort of you know, the 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:31.720 two pioneering or two sort of founding fathers of this 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.880 Austrians school of thought or or this economic school of 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:40.640 thought happened to be Carmengo and Ludwig Vonsis and and 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.800 obviously they're both Austrians. So so that's kind of what 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:48.160 inspired the nomenclature around why we call it that. But 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:49.880 but essentially, like I kind of call it and wen't 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:51.880 weren't weren't weren't weren't a lot of them kind of 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.320 huddled up in Austria at the time, and they kind 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.080 of they kind of had this like a little grouping 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:57.920 of those people there in Austria and they all kind 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.200 of use these ideas and develop them together. Yeah. Absolutely so, 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.080 so it's kind of like think of Silicon Valley, right, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.680 why do we have you know, Facebook and all these 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.760 sort of technologies come out of there, you know, like 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.440 you had the Xerox park, you had Apple, you had Intel, 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:14.880 you had sort of like a critical mass of that 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.200 type of thinking. So Vienna back in the late eighteen 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.800 hundreds early nine was kind of like a melting pot 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.960 for people that were sort of thinking about the world 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.880 in a way which where he makes a really good 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.080 argument in the in the piece where he calls it 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.880 a bottom up Enlightenment versus what you sort of had 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.000 in England and France at the time, which was a 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.479 top down kind of enforced Enlightenment, which which is really 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.840 interesting because we ended up getting out of France and 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:49.200 England was democracy and socialism, um, and what you sort 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.960 of had out of this kind of bottom up Enlightenment 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.280 that came out of Austria, and also you know, it's 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.680 predecessor was actually the Scottish Enlightenment, where you know, the 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:01.960 kind of thinkers that came out of that were you know, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.520 Edmund Burke and Adam Smith, you know, Wealth of Nations 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:06.839 and people like that. So it's quite interesting sort of 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:11.560 the cultures and the similarities between those sort of decentralized, emergent, 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.200 bottom up kind of philosophies and thinkings and Enlightenment periods 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.960 versus these top down ones that were like the French 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.680 and English and what they sort of produced at the 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.240 other end. So anyway, yeah, as you said, there was this, 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.359 there was you know, a bunch of students obviously that 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.480 came after Manga and and mesas, and they were all 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.839 obviously Austrian because that was the region they were in, 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.000 and that's really what kind of you know, pioneered that 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.520 school of thought and hence hence the name. And you 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.040 know what I was going to say before is I 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.720 just think of it as natural economics, because that's essentially 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.479 what it is, you know, it's it's the school of 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.839 economic thought that says, don't touch things because you're going 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.080 to break them, because the economic system is more complex 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.200 than what you know, a single entity or a single 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.320 mind or a single organization can define it as. So 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.919 s quit you know, messing with stuff and let the 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.400 market kind of figure itself out, would you. And I've 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.240 discussed that nauseaum in the book we wrote, and you know, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.400 as you do obviously every week on your podcast. So 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.440 you know, these guys were the founding fathers, the pioneers 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.359 of this type of thinking. Yeah, yeah, it's you know, 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.080 it just seems you kind of said naturally, you know, 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.800 like natural economics. And and obviously Mesas, who is also 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.520 may be considered one of the godfathers of that school 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.599 at Busas I wrote the book Human Action, right talking 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.960 about how human actions drive economics, and so you don't 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:38.000 really break the two down, you know, between each other. Um, Now, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.039 how would you compare Austrian economics than the traditional or 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.560 probably the dominant and maybe some people don't even know that, 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.239 but the dominant economic kind of policy or theory today 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.159 is Kinsian or has been born off of Kinsey. And 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.760 it's probably so, you know, uh, morphed and evolved. Now 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.280 maybe it's not exactly what it's probably way worse than 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:00.880 what Kings even had in mind back then. But how 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.280 would you kind of compare those two? Yeah, I think 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.200 a good way to think about it is, you know, 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.080 I mean you asked the average person, you know, what, 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.280 what's the economic model of the world that they wouldn't 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:12.760 even know who the hell Keens is, you know, they 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.480 wouldn't know that it Keenes, you know any of that. Right. 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.080 So the way I kind of think of it as 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:20.320 interventionist or non interventionist economics, right, And you know, the 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.840 interventionist school suggests that, hey, we should play with interest rates, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.680 we should you know, uh, you know, make the money 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.480 supply elastic, you know, we should uh you know, use 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.360 regulations to try and you know, funnel money and productivity 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.680 in particular directions. And the non interventionist school, which is 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.080 the Austrian school, which is what I call the natural school, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.160 just says no, don't do any of that, because every 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.200 time you make one of those decisions, there's one one 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:50.960 of those central planning decisions, you have unintended consequences downstream, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.480 which then deform the rest of the system, and you 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.520 will forever be playing not only catch up, but you'll 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.640 be making everything worse because you have like a you know, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.280 one of those magnification effects. You know, you you you 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.120 push one thing here, intend things happen out there. And 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.120 that's really the that's really the two big schools of thought. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.560 And actually Parker wrote a little bit about He wrote 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:16.520 the forward for this Peace Paco Lewis, and he was like, 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.680 you know, most people just don't they don't get they 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:20.640 don't know what Australians or Kinsian or any of that 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.400 sort of stuff. And sometimes, you know, we in the 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.040 bitcoin space get lost, you know, throwing those terms around, 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.240 and he was like, look, let's just call it as 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.200 it is is. You know, one school thinks that the 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.240 way toward economic prosperity is to have some sort of 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.719 central planners and managers, and the other school of thought 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:41.040 says no, let people at the edges decide and really, um, 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:43.960 I guess I think I think there's more more to 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.960 it than that. I mean, it's certainly is that, certainly right? 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.280 But how to the how do these central planners manage then? Right? 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.240 And so not only is it that now they're trying 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.440 to control and tell people what to do, but they're 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.920 also increasing or decreasing the money supply. I So that's 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:02.400 that could be a big piece of it. So it's 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:03.959 not just like, hey, you do this, you do this 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.760 kind of a thing, but they're but they're in increasing 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:07.880 the money. But I was just talking about in a 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:12.160 previous segment, Um, Amazon's laying off seventeen thousand people. Uh, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.480 and that's that's one small drop in the bucket. We 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.120 gotta take a breakthough. We're gonna come back to this 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:17.679 in a minute. If you're just tuning in, you're listening 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.680 to the Mark Moss Show. I'm in the studio with 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:24.640 Alex Sfetzky. We're talking about um economic theory, different economic models. Uh, 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:26.880 it gets more exciting. Don't go away, We'll be right 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.120 back in a minute. All right, welcome back. If you're 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:30.920 just tune in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.160 Talking about the decentralized revolution. Right now, I'm in the 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.160 studio with Alex Spetzky. We're talking about Austrian economics. Um. 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.520 He's just been written and it just published an entire 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.120 um magazine kind of article full of articles on Austrian economics. 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.520 That's called the Bitcoin Times. You can find them on 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.440 Twitter at Sfetzky Rights. But before the break, Alex I 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.359 was saying, how you know it's it certainly is intervention 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:55.640 versus non intervention, but I think it's the way that 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:59.920 they intervene as also important where Austrian school believes that 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.360 at um, you know, all wealth is needs to be 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.200 created first before it can be consumed, and so we 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.120 must save our money and then um all then saving 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.920 or even credit would come from delayed gratification as opposed 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.920 to Kinsian's interventionists, if you want to call adapt believe 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.040 in creating or increasing the money supply. And I was 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.120 just in in in the segment of the hour I 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.680 did before you jumped up, I was talking about how 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.680 Amazon's laying off seventeen thousand people and this is happening 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.280 all over the economy. I mean that was just one 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.480 data point, but but everywhere is being laid off. Um, 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.280 and I was just talking about I was thinking about 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.319 the insanity of this, where um, the the the interventionists, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.680 the central banks printed uh tens of trillions of dollars 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:47.480 in and UM dump that money into the ecosystem. So 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.960 then everybody had this extra money. They started going buying 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.120 all these things, which then broke supply chains down right 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.559 cause all these problems. And then Amazon is like, whoa, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.600 we can't keep up with orders. So they started building 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.160 all these distribution centers. They started hiring all these people, 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.440 and then people are like and then they have to 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.560 pay people increased wages because they're trying to get them 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:05.400 to back to work because the interventionists are giving them 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.040 money to stay at home. So now people are getting 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.480 hired at Amazon with good wages. They're feeling good. And 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.040 so then the guy's like, hey, I got hired at Amazon. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.080 I have this good career. I'm making good money. Hey, wife, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.680 wown you quit your job. Just quit your job. You 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:18.760 stay home now, and let's go buy that new car 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.920 we've always wanted. Right, So like now I've I've planned 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:23.680 my whole life based off of that. And then all 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.240 of a sudden, the central planners, the interventions want to 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.520 suck the money out of the economy, and now Amazon 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.360 has to lay seventeen thousand people off. But it's like, 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:32.920 wait a minute, my wife just quit her job and 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.600 I just bought this new car, like and sorry, is 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.080 that magnification effect? Yeah, this is that magnification effect. Right, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:40.800 you do one thing here and then ten other things 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:44.040 happened somewhere else, and then of course the problem is 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.080 the greedy capitalist again, which is you know, this is 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.800 this is part of the positive blame month of something else, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.240 the issue that happened. It's it's the it's the it's 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.920 also it's the whipsaw effect. Right, So it's like if okay, 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.760 increase the money and this, okay, let us deal with that. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.319 But it's no, no, no, it's it's let's increase it 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.320 by and then let's suck it back out and then 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.320 let's put it back in then and so we don't 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:07.760 even know what's ever coming, you know what I mean. 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.720 So it's like we we can't ever get used to it, 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.439 we can't ever like adjust for it. Well, this is 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:14.520 this is actually one of the other things. While we're 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.680 on the Austrian economics topic, it's that you know, modern 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.960 economists talk about this thing called the business cycle, and 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:22.600 they're like, well, we don't know where the business cycle 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.719 comes from, and um, they actually and this is you 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:28.360 know a lot of people don't realize this, but you 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.080 go to university and when you learn about what the 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.160 business cycle comes from, no word of a lie. They 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.440 call it animal spirits. They say that it just happens, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.280 and like it's right there in front of you. What 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.640 you just explain there the whips or effect, like the 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.200 business cycles are created by the very interventionism that is 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.320 supposed to smooth out the business cycles. They literally created 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.920 by their own hubris and stupidity. Whereas you you know, 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.920 naturally get some sort of cyclical effect in and a 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.280 economy because you know, as you said, sometimes people go out, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.679 they build a business, they get a little bit carried away, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.400 you know, they hire too much or whatever, and you 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.520 know that has local effects. But when you're doing it 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.840 at the central planning level, you know, and at the 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.280 at the mass you know, national global national economy level 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.800 of the global economy level, then you actually create these 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.160 total business cycles where everything becomes correlated. So in a 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:28.640 normal natural organic economy, if one industry kind of grew 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.720 itself out a little bit too much, and maybe the 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.520 adjacent industries might benefit a little bit from that, but 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.680 that tapers off very quickly. So if they make a 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.560 mistake and blow themselves up, it's a localized effect and 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.480 the rest of the economy is pretty fine. Whereas what 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.320 this interventionism does is it actually correlates everything. And now 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.640 you know, there's businesses that are going bust that should 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.920 actually be doing quite well now, but it's it's it's 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.600 all the same thing now. So so there's no more 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.960 actual economy. It's just the function of what the intervention 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.120 us to doing. How much money they're pulling into the 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.400 system and how much money they're sucking out has nothing 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.960 to do with productivity anymore, or very little to do 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.840 with productivity anymore, which is madness, Like what why are 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.800 we working? What are we doing? Yeah? Um, if I 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.960 was going to play Devil's advocate here a little bit, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.080 you know, understanding kind of the other side of the argument. Um, 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.760 you know the kinsians would you already made the case 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.320 is is their goal, their whole purpose that the federal 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.720 serves purpose is kind of to smooth out those cycles. 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.960 So what we'll do is the natural business cycles there, right, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:32.800 we have changing one's needs and desires. Humans are irrational, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.680 right um and so um, you you ordered too much 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.960 of one product or good or whatever, but I don't 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:40.880 want that anymore, right, and now all of a sudden 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:42.880 you're stuck with it. Right, So you have these natural 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.640 business cycles, and the Kinsians believe that they could smooth 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.280 that out by what what we'll do is we'll stimulate 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.000 a little bit in the times when we need, and 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:51.960 then we won't stimulant and we don't, and then we'll 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.360 smooth that cycle out. That's the purpose versus if we 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.560 kind of allowed the natural market to take its place, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.880 then we'd have much more choppy boo and busts. So 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.240 what would you say to that? Yeah, well, I mean 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.080 the I guess the proof is in the pudding is 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.920 that you know, it really comes down to a study 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:15.520 of complex systems and and just a humility to at 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:22.720 least recognize that if you allow things like as I 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.440 sort of said before, it's like you get these natural 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.520 business cycles all the time, because as you said, people 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.200 are rational, they order too much, they've changed their mind, 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.280 whatever the case is. But when the effect is more localized. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.840 It just doesn't have a systemic effect on everything else, 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:48.160 versus the process of correlating everyone together so that when 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:52.400 there is a problem, it actually becomes entirely systemic. It 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.640 affects people and industries and sections of the economy that 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:00.680 just shouldn't have anything to do with this, like and 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.920 it just it just spreads it all and and it 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:08.080 basically it reminds me of the whole all in this together, 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.680 you know, interventionist economy puts us all in everything together 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.720 for no reason. And instead of you know, the healthy 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.480 engine in a car for example, you know, like you know, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.920 the radiator does its job, and the you know, the 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.520 carburetor does its job, the fuel injectors do their job. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.920 You know, like everything does its own job here, Like 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.120 everyone is being sort of skewed to basically become a 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:37.320 speculator of some sort. And it exacerbates the booms and 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.920 it exacerbates the busts, and it just stresses everyone the 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.560 hell out, and instead of doing something productive with their time, 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:46.520 like building a business, everyone's hanging on you know, what 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.280 the hell is the interest rate going to be? What 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.240 are they getting? Like it's at the point now it's like, 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.320 what are they hinting about hinting about doing in the future, 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:56.800 And it's like, Okay, now, let's make all our decisions 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:58.200 based on the hint of a hint of a hint, 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.720 which is you know, animal spirits. Yeah. One way they 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.520 do that is, I mean, I think most people, not everybody, 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.160 but most people um probably realize that, like, price fixing 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:11.440 is bad. Right, If I set the price of bread, 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.320 but then the bread manufacturer, the baker can't produce it 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.240 for the price that it's fixed at, then he doesn't 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.359 produce bread anymore, at least the shortages. And so most 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.720 we will understand that. But they probably don't understand is 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:25.360 that when the Fed fixes the price of money, they're 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.560 they're they're fixing the price of everything. And so that's 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.680 that coordination, that large scale coordination that you're talking about. 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.359 There's a there's a guy a Matt Staller. He writes 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.159 a article called the I think it's called Big or 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.400 Big Monopoly, and he's talked about these monopolies that happen 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.440 all over the place. And just what wrote one talking 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.280 about Ponzi hospitals and counterfeit capitalism, which is pretty interesting. 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:48.400 I want to talk about more of that in a minute. Also, 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.639 we'll get into time preference, we get into what the 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.240 world looks like if we could implement something like this 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.159 on the back end, how Bitcoin could potentially do that, 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.080 and maybe the moral core code for for fixing this 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.320 system like this. You're listening to the Mark Moa Show. 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.600 If you're just tune in, m in the studio with 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.200 Alex s Fetzky. We're talking about the decentralized Revolution, talking 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.080 about money and economics right now. We'll be back with 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.240 more in a minute. Don't go away, all right, Welcome back. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:12.760 If you're just tuning in. You're listening to the Mark 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.880 Moa Show. We're talking about the Decentralized Revolution, and I'm 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.880 in the studio with Alex s. Fetzki. You canna find 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.560 him on Twitter at sfetzky Rights. He's the author of 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.480 the The Bitcoin Times, which is a really cool publication. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:28.280 He's put together a bunch of Austrian articles, Austrian economics. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.960 We're talking about economics, you know, before the break, I 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.240 had kind of hinted about this sub steck article I 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.239 got from Matt Staller and it's called Big and he 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.880 was talking about how um every every issue is talking 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.480 about these monopolies and he was talking about how he 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.159 calls it ponzi hospitals and counterfeit capitalism, and he was 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.120 talking about how ft X is nothing new, how it's 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.919 just like we work was where you get this uh 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.760 guy wearing a T shirt that everyone thinks is a genius, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.600 and uh, he creates a story. This genius creates a 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.040 story as to why he's losing money, but why it's 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.440 a good thing because he's getting growth and blah blah blah. 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.359 But it's only possible because of this counterfeit capitalism, this 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.360 ponzi finance. Right, we work continue to give them money 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.320 to buy get these building leases that were worth more 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.880 than the buildings themselves, which were insane or like f TX. 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.560 They were talking about, um, how how it's happening with 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.720 hospitals and so it's allowed these private equity companies now 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.240 to start going and buying up all these hospitals, but 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.080 they don't know how to run them. The running them horrible. 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.360 Now the hospitals are going on a business. Um they 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.560 own the land and they were he was saying that 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.320 even like UM, the they gave the loans to the hospitals, 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.919 the hospitals are paying on the land, but when the 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.480 hospitals go broken, can't pay the loan the hospital money 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.439 to keep making payments. So then they can show to 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.840 their shareholders in prospective investors, hey we've never had a 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.720 payment missed. We're still growing even though they're actually funding 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.200 the money in. And he's talking about how it's only 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.280 possible because of this counterfeit capitalism, only possible because the 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.880 interventionalists created all this free money, gave it to them, 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.640 and how is distorting things and causing problems where now 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:06.000 hospital care has gone down, Uh, hospitals are going to business. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.960 He was. He was blaming this whole last past hack 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.320 that recently happened on on on the same thing where 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.280 private equity came in, took over the business. They don't 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:14.720 know how to run it ran too the ground cause 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.440 the hack whatever. So I think there's there's definitely a 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.680